It hurt when a certain detail was pointed out to me regarding the films. Three Eagles went to Mount Doom. One for Frodo, one for Sam, and presumably one for Smeagol. The implication that Gandalf had such belief in the possibility of that redemption hits hard.
I've been reading LOTR over and over for fifty-four years, and it amazes me that every time you read it you learn new things. It never occurred to me that Gandalf sent the third eagle for Smeagol.
Yes, there were three eagles, but I'm not convinced that Gandalf was expecting Gollum to survive, since Gollum's greatly extended life was tied to The Ring. (Gandalf refers to him bearing The Ring for "many lifetimes of his small kind", and Gollum himself says to Sam, "When Precious goes we'll die, yesss, die into the dust!") Gwaihir, Lord of the Eagles, carried Gandalf himself, ("Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir, my friend! Third time shall pay for all!"), while his brother, Landroval, and Meneldur "the Swift" carried Sam and Frodo.
I was surprised you skipped over the scene where Gollum finds the two hobbits asleep in the pass of Cirith Ungol and is moved to the very point of repenting of his plans, only to be interrupted when Sam wakes up at exactly the wrong moment and thoughtlessly snaps off an insult that brings the Gollum side back to the front. In his letters Tolkien himself described this as the pivotal scene in Gollum's story, and discussed the irony that it was a thoughtless remark by the most noble character in the book that cut Gollum off from redemption-- and yet, Tolkien noted, perhaps that too was part of Providence's plan, because "redemption, though always possible, cannot be that easy."
@@MrHarrystank I couldn't disagree more! When Bilbo found the Ring, and was escaping, he could have killed Gollum, but didn't, and Sam later carried the Ring - in Mordor no less - but gave it back once he discovered Frodo alive. The point being that there was no reason for Smeagol to murder Deagol, and the Ring cannot be used as an excuse for it, otherwise Bildo, Frodo, and Sam should all three have committed similar crimes themselves. Smeagol was evil, he committed murder, and he paid the price for it. Gandalf said he was worthy of pity - and that's true, in the same sense that a Death Row inmate might, depending on the circumstances, be worthy of pity on his way to the chair - but Gandalf did NOT say Gollum was worthy of forgiveness, and he wasn't. This ridiculous idea, perpetrated by christianity, that everyone is equally bad, and that everyone should be forgiven if they repent, is completely disgusting, and I have no doubt it is the reason so many christians have committed so much evil. No way known would Smeagol be forgiven, even if he _had_ repented, which ... by the way ... *_HE DID NOT DO!_* Smeagol no longer existed, and the idea that Gollum would be forgiven is the preposterous suggestion. He was the one who told the Nazgul about The Shire, so he almost caused the destruction of the World FFS! *NO. WAY. KNOWN. IS. GOLLUM. FOGIVEN!*
@@DieLuftwaffel the narrator worded it like that (and worded it quite well), but he’s describing the brilliant story climax/outcome that Tolkien wrote.
There’s an idiom in Chinese 可怜之人必有可恨之处 “One who is worthy of pity must also have parts of them that are worthy of hate” Some things, it seems, transcend language, geography, culture, and even time.
Gollum falling into Mt Doom was no accident. Subconsciously, I think it was Sméagol trying to end his torment. It is said that he hated the ring most of all.
I was around 7 when my mom read the books to me, and I cried so hard when Gollum died. I’d been holding out hope that he’d escape the Ring’s hold on him, and that after it was destroyed he’d be free. As I got older I realized that him falling in with the Ring was a mercy for him. He died quickly and was most likely not even aware he was falling, his only focus was the Ring and he was happy. If Frodo or Sam had managed to destroy the Ring, I fully believe Gollum would have jumped in after it. By that point it was the only reason he had to keep living and even if he’d never betrayed Frodo and Sam, the Ring’s destruction would have destroyed him. Even if the Smeagol persona had won out, he would not know what to do or how to live a normal life. And that’s the true tragedy of Gollum, that the only way to freedom from the Ring was death
I’m a recovering alcoholic been off the sauce 3 years.. it’s a day to day battle I praise your strength & vulnerability to share your journey with us, I too see some of myself in Sméagol snd gollum
It's worth noting that Faramir's interrogation of Gollum does not involve kicking the everlasting shit out of him in the books. This change makes sense in the movies, since it quickly explains why Gollum falls back to the dark side soon after. But it does hurt Faramir's character quite a bit.
Jackson did everything possible to make Faramir look like shit in the movies. I get that most of it was for drama and not some antagonistic feeling for the character, but he probably suffered worse than anyone in adaptation (even Gimli).
@@evolving_dore Nah, Denathor really got the worst of it. Movies literally sanded off everything redeeming about the character and just made him a madman obsessed with power and his lineage.
@@evolving_doreit’s literally the opposite. Boromir and denathor both are made to look worse, as they are much more easily tempted by the ring where as faramir is shown to be “a lot better person” as the movies portrayal it.
One of the most important parts of the book is that Gollum’s fall back to the dark side is caused by none other than SAM. Gollum is moved at the sight of Frodo and Sam peacefully sleeping and very nearly repents and decides not to feed them to Shelob…but then Sam wakes up and starts calling him names again and making accusations, and thus he unintentionally destroys Smeagol’s last chance at redemption. Why Jackson thought he needed to toss that major character moment and instead ruin Faramir’s character is beyond me.
A big part of Frodo and Gollum's mutual empathy is based on them both understanding the pull of the one ring, facilitated by both being, to different degrees, Hobbits. They could see in each other the loss of self and the pain of struggle caused by this external power. Frodo obviously pitied Gollum, but I think that Gollum pitied Frodo, too, in a small way not wishing that Frodo end up a pathetic creature like him. The lust for the ring, of course, was stronger than Gollum's pity. Or was it? I always felt that Gollum's demise was in no small part of his own agency. By dying he ensured that he would be the final owner of the ring, spared Frodo from becoming like him (his pity), denied the ring from Sauron (his vengeance), and he achieved this bliss while finally putting an end to his many centuries of living in torment, guilt, and hatred of the world and himself. Gollum is the ultimate winner of the books: he got everything that he wanted and, if one applies Tolkien's Catholic religiosity, everything he deserved. Gollum is the true Lord of the Rings.
That’s an interesting interpretation. But I don’t think he intentionally fell into the lava. Some part of him must have been aware that if he died he would lose the precious. If he had escaped undoubtedly Aragorn and company would have been slaughtered by the Orcs, and someone working for Sauron would have eventually found Gollum and taken back the ring. Frodo and Sam would likely have been captured as well.
S---e is often fuelled by anger and spite. Dante’s Inferno places those who do it end up in the Ring of Wrath. Tolkien was definitely aware of The Divine Comedy. Part of the goal is to get back at people you hate and end the conversation absolutely and forever.
@@infidelheretic923yeah, he slipped and fell into the lava. 😂 Another thing pepole don't mention much. Smeagol isn't after the ring himself, his other personality Gollum on other hand, very much. We do see Smeagol just being happy he have friends after god knows how mamy years, while the Gollum personality is more aggresive and want the ring.
I agree that Gollum probably pitied Frodo, and sincerely did not wish him to become like himself. It's important to note that Gollum hated himself, as he hated the ring. He hated and loved the ring. I often imagine that, though Gollum didn't want the ring to be destroyed, he lead Frodo to Mordor because, in his heart of hearts, he wanted the ring gone. Even if that meant his own end.
In the books, Sméagol demonstrated many times how he could have been just as wise and smart as some of the lore masters, like Bilbo or even Elrond. It was he who explained the dead marshes to Frodo and Sam.
I read the books as a 12 year old boy. I always pitied Gollum/Sméagol. I remember the impact of the scene where Sméagol comes so close to repentance until the hobbits awake near the pass into Mordor as heart wrenching.
I'm kind of glad one of the major themes-pity or empathy, and the 3 hobbit ring bearers understanding that if things were slightly different they could have turned out the same way gollum did. Something that is lost on most people.
Faith is another important theme as well. Denethor relied on strength and will to defend his people from Sauron but was driven mad. Saruman relied on wisdom and knowledge to fight evil but realized no mortal could destroy the ring and was driven to treachery thinking he should take the ring instead of Sauron. It was only Gandalf who had faith that higher powers were subtly influencing all the events in the story and in the end he prevailed.
They were alike in a lot of ways--Gollum's tragedy was about him murdering his friend. Sam and Frodo's friendship is tested over and over again, with the fate of Gollum and Deagol hanging over their heads.
There was a huge difference between Aragorn and Frodo's situations: Aragorn did not have the ring, so Gollum/Smeagol had no reason to respect/obbey him, he was purely hostile in his view. But added to Frodo's gentile nature. the fact that he was carrying the One Ring made Gollum (while still wanting to steal it) kind of respect his authority as he was the Master of the Precious.
I always liked the idea that at the very end it is Smeagol that kills Gullum and destroys the ring, using the last strength that remains in him to do one good act and to end it all.
Having watched each of these perspective videos, I would kind of love to see one from the One Ring's perspective. We know it has agency and "desire" and a will in its connection to Sauron. So it's be pretty cool to see what the experience of the story was from its perspective as it grew nearer and nearer to Sauron before finally being destroyed.
I really like how you examine the heart of these things. not over particularizing it, not getting to hasty with conclusions, but more musing on their broader natures and implications. how permutations of it can manifest in various ways while keeping a rhyme between them. a connecting string.
I've always been under the impression that Gollum's ultimate end was the result of him breaking his sworn oath, which he swore on the very item which he ultimately broke his oath to reclaim. But far from it being a merciless judgement type thing, l think Tolkien shows us how pitiable he really was, and doubtless his fate was guided by whatever pity eminated from the powers who meted out such judgement. His end was quick and merciful, and it not only freed him from the Ring, but the whole world as well.
Yeah it is my impression that Gollum's oath to the ring bound him magically - one of the minor powers Frodo is able to access as the bearer of the ring of power. I disagree with the movie's interpretation that there are two personalities in Gollum - there's only one Gollum and Frodo's spell bound him as a servant. The fact is, Gollum is a complex and tragic figure, corrupted by power and ultimately evil in a shallow cowardly sort of way.
@memine2022 aussi Sam was able to recover and live a full and happy life, and Frodo and Bilbo went to the undying lands. That doesn't seem like a bad alternative.
Oath/ Curse/devine intervention/Gollums moment of joy are really the same thing or present at the same time. In middle earth oaths DO have power. Oath of Feänor and the army of dead for example.
I love that you used a map from Lord of the Rings Online to illustrate Gollum's path through the Misty Mountains. I'm not sure if you play the game, but it tickles me so much.
Gollum swore on the Ring and Frodo very clearly told Gollum that the Ring would hold him to his oath at the Gate once again he warned him that if he commanded to jump into the fire the ring would force him to do it. Gollum broke his oath and the ring kept it. Gollum’s doom is also his release there was no boat for him to the undying lands.
And the screenwriters suddenly made Frodo extremely stupid by having him directly tell Gollum on Cirith Ungol that he’s trying to destroy it, in the movie. Frodo in the book would NEVER have done that.
@@InsaneRabbitDaddy exactly, this is why I find the conflict invented by the screenwriters during the Stairs of Cirith Ungol scene incredibly stupid. In the book, Frodo is fully aware that Gollum is untrustworthy and there’s a high chance he will eventually stab them in the back; he and Sam communicate about this. Frodo is giving Gollum the benefit of the doubt but he never really puts his guard down or assumes that Gollum is suddenly incapable of harm now. This makes his mercy on Gollum all the more amazing, because he knows he’s being risky. But the movie just made Frodo so gullible as to believe Gollum instead of Sam during an argument, which really is nonsensical to the point of absurdity.
@@12classics39 I always assumed that they were hinting as to the affect of the ring on Frodo and how it was warping his judgement. Although I entirely agree it seems odd!
@@MGPortraitArt the Ring clouding Frodo’s judgment to the point where he trusts the wrong person never happens in the book. It was never Tolkien’s intent for a symptom of the Ring’s control over Frodo to be him suddenly turning on Sam. In fact the trust and bond between him and Sam is clearly the antithesis of the Ring’s evil, and IMO anyway, is the key element that helps Frodo resist the Ring for as long as he does (which is longer than was possible for anyone else in the world; Tolkien himself said so.)
I have always thought that Gollum planned to betray Frodo and Sam to Shelob well before his capture by Faramir. There’s a passage in the chapter Shelob’s Lair, as Frodo and Sam fight to escape her web, of Gollum’s thoughts about recovering the Ring after Shelob has killed them. And it says that he often said this to himself as he walked the dangerous road from Emyn Muil to Morgul Vale.
Agreed. I think that Gollum began to fall back into his scheming before Faramir. It was after the winged Nazgul swept over them in the lands near the Black Gate, before they came to Ithilien (and Faramir). "From that time on, Sam thought he noticed a change in Gollum again. He was more fawning and would-be friendly, but Sam noticed some strange looks in his eyes at times, especially when looking at Frodo..." And at this point, he started having internal debates about "she" who might help him get the Precious back (Shelob). This ambivalence is worsened by Faramir's incarceration of Gollum, then cemented by Sam's mistrustful rudeness just before Cirith Ungol.
The issue I have with pitying Gollum is that he murdered his cousin *before* he possessed the ring for himself. It is said the ring amplified the user's desire, so maybe murder wasn't in his heart originally, but he certainly was not a good person if he was capable of murdering Deagol. Was it the ring's influence on Smeagol that caused him to murder Deagol? Perhaps, but that's never clearly stated, and nothing like that ever happened to the four other people who possessed the ring after Sauron.
I think as Tolkien was a former soldier in WW1, it wouldn’t be uncommon to see a person who would be considered absolutely sane and normal to loose all sense of humanity and any trace of who they once were? The ring as you say amplifies it so the change is instant in Sméagol? I dont know that’s the only way I can rationalise it to myself?
Yeah, it’s really really hard to know how to feel about Gollum when you focus on that part of his story. Like, if he hadn’t found the Ring, would he ever have killed Deagol? Probably not. Then again, as you say, none of the other Ring-bearers ever resort to murder to keep it. Smeagol went nuts 2 seconds after seeing the Ring for the very first time, and killed someone to get it, whereas Bilbo lived with it for 60 years without harming a fly and Frodo carried it for 6 straight months without ever hurting Sam, successfully resisting every time the Ring tried to make him even attack Sam. So I think the comparison indicates that Smeagol really was never pure of heart.
I'm currently rereading the books, and I think the Ring's effect is immediate for at least some people. Boromir first gets tempted by the Ring the moment he first sees it at the Council of Elrond, and he later attacks Frodo at the end of Fellowship to try and take it. Tolkien makes it very clear that Boromir was a good man at heart, but the corruption of the Ring on him was immediate and only grew over the months he was traveling with the party. Perhaps for Smeagol it happened just that fast. It's possible he just wasn't a very good person to begin with, but it's impossible to know whether he had it in him to murder his kin before being tempted by the Ring.
Yet, Smeagol was denied the possession of the ring. He would not have murdered Deagol, if he would just have given it to him. But apparently Deagol was possessed as well. Also, I don't know how it happens in the book, but in the movie Deagol tries to strangle Smeagol first, then he returns it and ultimately wins the fight. You can't compare Gollum to Bilbo because noone ever wanted to take the ring from him, except for Gandalf after the birthdayparty.
If you follow his story completely, using Tolkien's metaphorical concepts - Gollum as a representation of humanity's 'worst' traits - then you would realize that his death was a release from the curse he'd carried since the moment he reached for the ring. Like Adam, his single moment of curiosity turned into a millenia (ish) of tortured near him mortality under the spell of the ring. Frodo's ultimate act of compassion was allowing Gollum to have the release of a real death, freed from the ring after so many years.
Wow, this was thought provoking and puts LOTR in an entire new light and tells such a beautifully tragic story that anyone who struggles with addiction and has those around them that struggle with it can relate to. This is a must watch for any LOTR fan.
It's just amazing and a showcase to how wonderful this franchise is that over 50 years later, we are still discussing and analyzing Tolkien's work. The goat of fiction 🐐
It was a lot easier to pity him when I had only seen the movies where he's silly and kind of cute at times, but then I read the books and felt much different about it. "He had been sneaking through windows and emptying cradles", which I took to mean he was eating peoples infants 😬😬
Yeah he ate babies, orcs, orc babies he was gross and nasty in the books, they had to make him somewhat “cute” looking in the movies and human looking, he looks more like how he looks in the movie just before he turns into CGI Gollum
@@Nikiforas I had the opposite experience. Dad read us the entire series when I was 5 - my brother was too young to remember it, but I had nightmares about my fingers being bitten off for years off and on until the movies came out. 😅
Re-listening to these again, I was struck by the vow Gollum made upon the one ring to protect Frodo, and prevent it falling into the hands of Sauron. Of all the ring bearers, he’s my favorite. He protected it the longest, and sacrificed everything to keep it out of the hands of the Dark Master.
You're a portly fellow, a bit long in the waistband.... So what's your pleasure? Is it the salty snacks you crave? No no no no no, yours is a sweet tooth... Oh! you may stray! but you'll always return to your dark master: the coco bean!
Beautiful analysis. 🙏🏼 My 4 year old boy has taken up a huge love for Gollum in particular. He likes his voice when we read. And I think the hobbits (and the reader) showing Gollum love is Tolkien’s brilliant way of instructing us we cannot defeat evil with hate, and it’s only love that brings the light.
pity is one of humanitys true strengths, along with selflessness hope and love, which tolken understood, after all pity is the start of all charity which is also love. i always see the conflict after being bound so long, yet there is a kindness still and he was tricked that must have stung so badly
Amazing! I am re-reading The Two Towers now after many years and this video turned up, just at the moment when I am at "The Forbidden Pool". It is a most wrenching moment when Frodo is torn and Gollum is captured.
Of course he is. The Ring would have never been destroyed without his innocent joy at reclaiming it. After all, everyone who took it to Mount Doom were turned. Why would it not be the strongest at it's making place?
No one could destroy it willingly. That's already been established. He was the ONLY one that was capable of taking it to the ending, given the circumstances. Eru was playing 4-d chess. :)
Gollum is an allegory for addiction. I had always wondered how Tolkien could have such a modern understanding of addiction, as we do now after the war on drugs and various overdose crises, but it makes sense when you consider his participation in the first world war, where he would witness firsthand the ravages of morphine addiction
Nah. Gollum is one of those very Christian allegories Tolkien worked into his work. The ring is greed and temptation and Gollum is meant show the consequences of those to the reader
I always wondered how Gollum seemed to know what the ring was or who created it. Frodo and Bilbo were none the wiser, gandalf spent years researching it to be sure, but despite living in a cave for most of his life Gollum displayed a shocking amount of knowledge. Did he overhear things while in captivity? Did Sauron outright tell him? It's a mystery to me, but he knows the Ring calls to Sauron, he recognises who Sauron is, he knows a fair amount.
These videos are so fantastic. They make me wish that Amazon had instead made a more in depth and true to the books LOTR series and not ventured off on the disaster that is the Rings of Power. There's just endless amounts of perspective and nuance to explore that would be great to see on the screen.
Gollum's escape from Moria could only have come *before* the Fellowship reached the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, at which point it was destroyed. Frodo, who was the watchman in the 23rd Hall the night before the Fellowship was attacked, though he saw Gollum's eyes in the distance. If Gollum had quickly taken the eastern exit and down to the 2nd Hall, he would have been able to cross the Bridge, although I'm baffled that the orcs didn't guard it. He was also apparently able to evade the orc-guard inside the Eastern gate.
The window high up. Gollum backtracks, finds the window, climbs out at night and down the mountain, and then resumes pursuit. Or he knew of other ways out of Moria.
I always get a little lost trying to follow how Gollum could’ve just easily gone through all the peril in that part of the story. The company barely makes it, but Gollum is just always following with little effort.
@@gelatinousjoe7979 Gollum, at the time of the Fellowship travelling through Moria, had been wandering the wilderness for literally years, and had the instincts and skills of a wild creature. He was described by the Woodmen of Mirkwood as "a ghost who drank blood," meaning he was so cunning and stealthy that he was as invisible as a ghost. Gollum also had been dodging goblins for centuries in the Misty Mountains, so it would have been no trouble at all for him to dodge the goblins of Moria.
I think Tolkien made it easier to feel pity for Gollum because he was never the demise of any character’s the reader cares about. We know that from the moment he is in the presence of The Ring he is not only capable of murder, but that of close a relative. Yet, his acts of violence within the novel never resulted in a significant death other than his own. Still, I think most important role Gollum plays, along with Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, is showing us that the true power of The Ring is the manipulation of the bearer desire. Those with simple desires had a greater ability to resist such manipulations.
I honestly think Smeagol always intended to betray Frodo. There are moments when he does seem to be on the verge of repentance - like that one time he was watching Frodo sleep - but I never got the impression that he ever did repent. Samwise' distrust doesn't exactly endear him to the Hobbits. Frodo's assistance in capturing Gollum for Faramir didn't help either, but I never got the feeling he would have ever taken a different course of action. Keep in mind, the reason he was taking Frodo and Sam through Ithilien was to lead them into Shelob's Lair to start with.
Gollum also provides a glimpse of what could have happened-and almost did happen-to Bilbo and Frodo if they had kept the One Ring. He also demonstrates the resilience of Hobbits-500 years with the most powerful and evil of the Rings of Power, and he didn’t fully become a Wraith and still retained a vestige of his former self.
***Morbid comment warning*** My brother died in a car crash this morning. He was heavily addicted to hard drugs, and showed signs of serious mental issues leading up to his death - we tried our best to help but it wasnt enough I came here because his death made me feel a similar way to that of Gollum's death - You could see glimpses of the good in him and I HOPED he would redeem himself, but something else had taken over. This world wasn't for him anymore. I am obviously upset but at the same time releived that all of his suffering, self inflicted or not, is now over. "Death is just another path, one that we all must take" Rest in Peace big bro
@@chrispolo4601 Can't believe it's been 5 months already.. I'm doing good though - thank you for asking. Believe it or not, Tolkien's work was therapy and provided me an escape in a way. Really appreciate the concern, Chris. All the best 🤝
I am so terribly sorry for what you, your family, and he all must have experienced. I genuinely hope you have the support that you need. I know it hurts, so please accept the love and help that you need to get through this. And reach out to people when you need to. I wish you grace and healing. I'll keep you in my thoughts.
@@ericthompson3982 I really do appreciate that, Eric!! It still feels surreal sometimes - just a few days ago I drove past my brother as he was riding his bike. I was going to call out but stopped myself because my baby niece was sleeping in the back seat. As I passed him, I started to stick my hand out the window, waving at him before realising it wasn't my brother at all. Part of me had just forgotten what had happened for a brief moment - I'm still not "used to it" Thanks a ton for the kinds words though - means more than you know. All the best
One of the saddest things about Gollum is that if he had died, Sam would have been forced to either kill Frodo or basically watch him take the ring right to Sauron’s hand. And that’s assuming they even MADE it that far.
Excellent video! You missed an integral moment. In the stairs of cirith ungol, gollum has one last brief moment of hesitation before betraying the hobbits. He reached out to touch frodo, and sam awakens to catch him. Sam reacts with suspicion and cruelty, and gollum reverts and doubles down on his plan. Gollum was bound to betray frodo at some point before they reached mount doom, the ring consumed him. It'd especially be triggered when he'd inevitably discover Frodos plan to destroy it. However, Sam's treatment of Gollum was a catalyst in his downfall.
What a fantastic analysis. Thank you. I have a better and deeper understanding of the story - and I have read it eleven times. Well done and much appreciated.
I wonder what would have happened if Sam had prevented the fire from smoking as he promised he would. Perhaps Faramir wouldn't have captured them, and Smeagol wouldn't feel betrayed and switch back to Gollum? Maybe it's far-fetched that it would affect anything at all, but I always get pissed at Sam's carelessness about that fire.
damn bro! i love how well you phrase and summarize tolkiens work and method behind character developments. i didnt really think about it but gollum really is the main OG character of the entire book. I knew what gollum stood for as for idolize/addiction/greed goes, as well as what the ring does to people much like metaphors irl can be substituted for, but to think gollum was the epitome of Your own person's judgement on a pitiful soul.. thats deeply cool
He didn't take the ring from Deagol. It was a birthday present. From our Grandmother. Lots of nice fancy things she had. Oh yes Precious. Filthy little cheat, FALSE, it stole it from us!
He wasn’t a “hobbit like creature” he was straight up a hobbit, but he was a member of one of the hobbit races that didn’t live in The Shire. But hobbits from the shire didn’t consider any of their kinsmen who didn’t live in the shire to be “true hobbits”. Hell some of the hobbits in the Shire were looked down upon for living in houses and not hobbit holes, since a house is too “manish.” Hobbits we’re a fascinating and special people but they could also be very judgmental, the only reason the rest of the Shire put up with Bilbos in their words “queerness” is because he was rich.
@@somethingfromnothing8428 yes, but his people were desired from the stoors (I think?) and dealt with boats and were quite skilled swimmers, both of which were things hobbits in the shire considered to be “not proper”
@@matthewterlaga3022 hobbits from hobbiton didnt think it was proper. I think the bloodlines were still somewhat stronger for different races in different regions of the shire. The bucklanders would have been closer related to stoors. The tooklanders would have been more related to the fallohides and hobbiton folk more alike to harfoots. The lotr is told from the perspective of hobbiton hobbits at that point in the book so would have been biased towards that opinion, not the opinion of every hobbit from every region
@@somethingfromnothing8428 that’s my point, Sméagol wasn’t from a “hobbit like race” he was a hobbit, but Frodo was biased and didn’t see him as such, since he didn’t come from The Shire.
@@matthewterlaga3022 frodo was half brandybuck and grew up in buckland. He had stoor blood in him and grew up around the ancesters of stoors until his parents deaths
What does everyone make of the theory that Gollum kills Frodo's parents before journeying to Mordor? They were after all Baggins, just not the right Baggins. Puts a new slant on "boating accident" when you remember how comfortable Gollum was in water.
Technically, the river was the border. Buckland was outside the Shire proper. But I can't see him stopping after finding a Baggins and being that close to the Ring. I do love the idea though.
@Paul Rhome exactly. If he had actually found the Shire, even its border, and found Bagginses, he would never have stopped. He'd have found Bilbo, killed him, and reclaimed the Ring. Either that, or Rangers would have captured him and we'd know about it.
I don’t think he ever went to the shire ever, if he did he would’ve kept tracking down Bilbo and would’ve found him honestly, he wouldn’t have known Frodo’s parents were baggins either, it’s too circumstantial, besides why would he just stop with the two baggins who don’t have the ring? He’d keep looking.
The Witch King bragged that no man can slay him; so instead it was a hobbit and a woman, teamed up, who slew him. Likewise, no one could destroy the Ring; so it took two.
I’d say, when it comes to the most principal players, it took five to destroy the Ring: 1) Bilbo by sparing Gollum 2) Frodo by carrying the Ring all the way to Sammath Naur 3) Sam by carrying Frodo 4) Aragorn by distracting Sauron in the Palantir and at the Black Gate 5) Gollum by taking the Ring and falling off the cliff into the Fire.
It's a sad story of long suffering and a ring that binds an unsuspecting man into darkness and ultimately destroys his life... That's why Will Smith keeps his wedding video in LOTR VHS cassette box.
The weight of the ring seems to have an effect like a constant, low intensity attack from a Dementor. It's almost as if the ring impedes or degrades the intensity of positive emotions. You can feel happiness but never as deep and as nourishing when you are not wearing it. Over time, starved of proper emotional 'nutrition' the mind becomes more and more susceptible to darker instincts which the ring no doubt amplifies and thus the bearer becomes 'addicted' to the junk food of narcissism, greed and ambition.
I didn’t even think of that. He was following behind them and the bridge of Khazad Dum was destroyed. So either he fled across it before the party did or he knew some other way out of Moria.
I imagine there was some other way out of there. Just think, the Fellowship was in Lothlorien for a month, which gives him plenty of time to find a way out and catch up.
Gollum wore it and used it for murder. Bilbo did not constantly use it and fought the taint. The most evil thing Bilbo was said to use it for after reaching the Shire was to be rude. (Avoid relatives)
I suppose because he had it for 500 years, whilst bilbo only had it for 50, So I imagine it’s power is still having long lasting affects on Gollum. kinda like drugs or smoking, the longer you do it for, the longer it takes for your body to recover back to normal.
That's a movie thing. It didn't happen like that in the books. Old age does eventually catch up with the book version of Bilbo, yes, but not until after the ring was destroyed. That couldn't happen to Gollum, of course, as by then he was dead.
Golum had the intention of leading them to the spider's lair before the whole betrayal with faramir, it didnt change from a to z, the plan was always on his mind
In the movie it came about from the “betrayal” of Frodo. I think that’s where the mistake comes from. In the book he has that plan almost from the moment he begins taking them to Cirith Ungol
In lord of the rings, there’s only one cannon. That’s the books. Simple. There’s no two ways about it. The films were amazing. But they’re not true to what he wrot.
0:37 Déagol is not Sméagol’s cousin. That’s actually a big misconception. Tolkien never states anywhere that they are family, only he is Sméagol’s friend. Anywhere in the forums on the internet that state it are not accurate.
@@wildmikefilms here’s another one: Bilbo isn’t actually Frodo’s Uncle, but Frodo is his first and second cousin… once removed 🫨. Though of course, he still refers to Bilbo as his uncle.
![The Lord of the Rings Full Audiobook [#1 - The Fellowship of the Rings] by J. R. R. Tolkien [1/3]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/JyvmAfpM0L8/mqdefault.jpg)
It hurt when a certain detail was pointed out to me regarding the films. Three Eagles went to Mount Doom. One for Frodo, one for Sam, and presumably one for Smeagol. The implication that Gandalf had such belief in the possibility of that redemption hits hard.
I've been reading LOTR over and over for fifty-four years, and it amazes me that every time you read it you learn new things. It never occurred to me that Gandalf sent the third eagle for Smeagol.
The ever-present humility of Olórin… wow that’s wild to think about.
I always thought it was just a fail safe. In case an Eagle dies, they have a spare (and an Eagle can carry 2 hobbits easily) so really 2 spares
Yes, there were three eagles, but I'm not convinced that Gandalf was expecting Gollum to survive, since Gollum's greatly extended life was tied to The Ring. (Gandalf refers to him bearing The Ring for "many lifetimes of his small kind", and Gollum himself says to Sam, "When Precious goes we'll die, yesss, die into the dust!") Gwaihir, Lord of the Eagles, carried Gandalf himself, ("Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir, my friend! Third time shall pay for all!"), while his brother, Landroval, and Meneldur "the Swift" carried Sam and Frodo.
You just blew my fucking mind
I was surprised you skipped over the scene where Gollum finds the two hobbits asleep in the pass of Cirith Ungol and is moved to the very point of repenting of his plans, only to be interrupted when Sam wakes up at exactly the wrong moment and thoughtlessly snaps off an insult that brings the Gollum side back to the front. In his letters Tolkien himself described this as the pivotal scene in Gollum's story, and discussed the irony that it was a thoughtless remark by the most noble character in the book that cut Gollum off from redemption-- and yet, Tolkien noted, perhaps that too was part of Providence's plan, because "redemption, though always possible, cannot be that easy."
The relationship between Sam and Gollum I think is a tale saved for another In Deep Geek moment (unless I missed it already!)
Yeah, i did miss that too. Maybe that scene is worth a video on its own.
Reportedly Cs Lewis cried at that scene when Tolkien showed it to him.
Darth Vader is a mirror of Gollum. A murderer bound by the devil who watches everything he loved be destroyed
@@MrHarrystank I couldn't disagree more! When Bilbo found the Ring, and was escaping, he could have killed Gollum, but didn't, and Sam later carried the Ring - in Mordor no less - but gave it back once he discovered Frodo alive. The point being that there was no reason for Smeagol to murder Deagol, and the Ring cannot be used as an excuse for it, otherwise Bildo, Frodo, and Sam should all three have committed similar crimes themselves. Smeagol was evil, he committed murder, and he paid the price for it. Gandalf said he was worthy of pity - and that's true, in the same sense that a Death Row inmate might, depending on the circumstances, be worthy of pity on his way to the chair - but Gandalf did NOT say Gollum was worthy of forgiveness, and he wasn't. This ridiculous idea, perpetrated by christianity, that everyone is equally bad, and that everyone should be forgiven if they repent, is completely disgusting, and I have no doubt it is the reason so many christians have committed so much evil. No way known would Smeagol be forgiven, even if he _had_ repented, which ... by the way ... *_HE DID NOT DO!_* Smeagol no longer existed, and the idea that Gollum would be forgiven is the preposterous suggestion. He was the one who told the Nazgul about The Shire, so he almost caused the destruction of the World FFS!
*NO. WAY. KNOWN. IS. GOLLUM. FOGIVEN!*
“His victory is also his doom, and his doom is the saving of all of Middle Earth.”
- My god, when you put it like that…
Tolkien thought of everything. Amazing. 😮
J.R.R. Tolkien could *write.*
Tolkien wrote that, or this narrator? Either way, well said.
@@DieLuftwaffel the narrator worded it like that (and worded it quite well), but he’s describing the brilliant story climax/outcome that Tolkien wrote.
There’s an idiom in Chinese
可怜之人必有可恨之处
“One who is worthy of pity must also have parts of them that are worthy of hate”
Some things, it seems, transcend language, geography, culture, and even time.
Gollum falling into Mt Doom was no accident. Subconsciously, I think it was Sméagol trying to end his torment. It is said that he hated the ring most of all.
This has never occured to me before, but there really seems to be much sense and reason it what you're saying 👏🏻 great idea
His fall was also the fulfillment of the curse Frodo placed on him.
Interesting!!! I can see that! Wonderful insight. 🙂
@@12classics39Yes! This is in the book and I just read that part. 🙂
He seemed pretty happy when he fell he even put his hand out of the lava to try and protect the ring
I was around 7 when my mom read the books to me, and I cried so hard when Gollum died. I’d been holding out hope that he’d escape the Ring’s hold on him, and that after it was destroyed he’d be free.
As I got older I realized that him falling in with the Ring was a mercy for him. He died quickly and was most likely not even aware he was falling, his only focus was the Ring and he was happy. If Frodo or Sam had managed to destroy the Ring, I fully believe Gollum would have jumped in after it. By that point it was the only reason he had to keep living and even if he’d never betrayed Frodo and Sam, the Ring’s destruction would have destroyed him. Even if the Smeagol persona had won out, he would not know what to do or how to live a normal life. And that’s the true tragedy of Gollum, that the only way to freedom from the Ring was death
Not only was the ring his only reason to keep living, it was the cause of his extremely long and awful life
And he inadvertantly saved them all when he fell into the lava. Frodo was going to leave Mt Doom and go to Las Vegas.
Gollum dies?! You spoiler!
I wonder if he could have healed if taken to the undying lands like Frodo, I'd like to think he could.
@@FauxPasAgainyou shouldn’t be watching this UA-cam video if you don’t want a spoiler lol….
Not gonna lie, i sort of expected a 10 minute loop of “LOST! My precious is lost! they’re thieves, they’re filthy little thieves”
Ha ha ha
That would have been nice but you can't get everything in life
That would’ve been awesome! With a side loop on fishies every so often :)
More like 10 hours
Nasty little hobbitses
As a recovering addict who has enjoyed this story since I was a kid, your take on gollum really moved me. Thanks for such great content.
strength to both of you, warriors
I'm proud of you bud 👏👏👏
I see myself in Gollum too. An ugly side, but it's there
I’m a recovering alcoholic been off the sauce 3 years.. it’s a day to day battle
I praise your strength & vulnerability to share your journey with us, I too see some of myself in Sméagol snd gollum
hope youre still going srtong my man.
As tragic as his story ultimately was, I do take a little bit of solace in the fact that, in a really twisted way, he technically died happy.
"We are invited to pity him." Astute analysis. Love these, hope you never run out of material.
its very good wording. its not “you are supposed to” as an imperative, but given as a possibility.
It's worth noting that Faramir's interrogation of Gollum does not involve kicking the everlasting shit out of him in the books.
This change makes sense in the movies, since it quickly explains why Gollum falls back to the dark side soon after. But it does hurt Faramir's character quite a bit.
Jackson did everything possible to make Faramir look like shit in the movies. I get that most of it was for drama and not some antagonistic feeling for the character, but he probably suffered worse than anyone in adaptation (even Gimli).
@@evolving_dore Nah, Denathor really got the worst of it. Movies literally sanded off everything redeeming about the character and just made him a madman obsessed with power and his lineage.
@@evolving_doreit’s literally the opposite. Boromir and denathor both are made to look worse, as they are much more easily tempted by the ring where as faramir is shown to be “a lot better person” as the movies portrayal it.
One of the most important parts of the book is that Gollum’s fall back to the dark side is caused by none other than SAM. Gollum is moved at the sight of Frodo and Sam peacefully sleeping and very nearly repents and decides not to feed them to Shelob…but then Sam wakes up and starts calling him names again and making accusations, and thus he unintentionally destroys Smeagol’s last chance at redemption. Why Jackson thought he needed to toss that major character moment and instead ruin Faramir’s character is beyond me.
OMG Faramir kicks Gollum in the movies? Thanks! for the last bit of confirmation I should never watch them. I´d been tempted, but not anymore.
A big part of Frodo and Gollum's mutual empathy is based on them both understanding the pull of the one ring, facilitated by both being, to different degrees, Hobbits. They could see in each other the loss of self and the pain of struggle caused by this external power. Frodo obviously pitied Gollum, but I think that Gollum pitied Frodo, too, in a small way not wishing that Frodo end up a pathetic creature like him. The lust for the ring, of course, was stronger than Gollum's pity.
Or was it? I always felt that Gollum's demise was in no small part of his own agency. By dying he ensured that he would be the final owner of the ring, spared Frodo from becoming like him (his pity), denied the ring from Sauron (his vengeance), and he achieved this bliss while finally putting an end to his many centuries of living in torment, guilt, and hatred of the world and himself.
Gollum is the ultimate winner of the books: he got everything that he wanted and, if one applies Tolkien's Catholic religiosity, everything he deserved. Gollum is the true Lord of the Rings.
That’s an interesting interpretation.
But I don’t think he intentionally fell into the lava. Some part of him must have been aware that if he died he would lose the precious.
If he had escaped undoubtedly Aragorn and company would have been slaughtered by the Orcs, and someone working for Sauron would have eventually found Gollum and taken back the ring.
Frodo and Sam would likely have been captured as well.
S---e is often fuelled by anger and spite. Dante’s Inferno places those who do it end up in the Ring of Wrath. Tolkien was definitely aware of The Divine Comedy. Part of the goal is to get back at people you hate and end the conversation absolutely and forever.
@@infidelheretic923yeah, he slipped and fell into the lava. 😂
Another thing pepole don't mention much. Smeagol isn't after the ring himself, his other personality Gollum on other hand, very much. We do see Smeagol just being happy he have friends after god knows how mamy years, while the Gollum personality is more aggresive and want the ring.
I agree that Gollum probably pitied Frodo, and sincerely did not wish him to become like himself. It's important to note that Gollum hated himself, as he hated the ring. He hated and loved the ring. I often imagine that, though Gollum didn't want the ring to be destroyed, he lead Frodo to Mordor because, in his heart of hearts, he wanted the ring gone. Even if that meant his own end.
@@wormwoodcocktailwhat word did you block out at the start of your comment? I can't figure it out lol
In the books, Sméagol demonstrated many times how he could have been just as wise and smart as some of the lore masters, like Bilbo or even Elrond. It was he who explained the dead marshes to Frodo and Sam.
It's a shame that that which cursed him also enabled him to live long enough to learn it.
I read the books as a 12 year old boy. I always pitied Gollum/Sméagol. I remember the impact of the scene where Sméagol comes so close to repentance until the hobbits awake near the pass into Mordor as heart wrenching.
I'm kind of glad one of the major themes-pity or empathy, and the 3 hobbit ring bearers understanding that if things were slightly different they could have turned out the same way gollum did. Something that is lost on most people.
Faith is another important theme as well. Denethor relied on strength and will to defend his people from Sauron but was driven mad. Saruman relied on wisdom and knowledge to fight evil but realized no mortal could destroy the ring and was driven to treachery thinking he should take the ring instead of Sauron. It was only Gandalf who had faith that higher powers were subtly influencing all the events in the story and in the end he prevailed.
They were alike in a lot of ways--Gollum's tragedy was about him murdering his friend. Sam and Frodo's friendship is tested over and over again, with the fate of Gollum and Deagol hanging over their heads.
@@ColoradoStreamingI never realized this, but you are right, and undoubtedly this speaks to Tolkien’s world view as a Christian.
There was a huge difference between Aragorn and Frodo's situations: Aragorn did not have the ring, so Gollum/Smeagol had no reason to respect/obbey him, he was purely hostile in his view. But added to Frodo's gentile nature. the fact that he was carrying the One Ring made Gollum (while still wanting to steal it) kind of respect his authority as he was the Master of the Precious.
I always liked the idea that at the very end it is Smeagol that kills Gullum and destroys the ring, using the last strength that remains in him to do one good act and to end it all.
Having watched each of these perspective videos, I would kind of love to see one from the One Ring's perspective. We know it has agency and "desire" and a will in its connection to Sauron. So it's be pretty cool to see what the experience of the story was from its perspective as it grew nearer and nearer to Sauron before finally being destroyed.
I really like how you examine the heart of these things. not over particularizing it, not getting to hasty with conclusions, but more musing on their broader natures and implications. how permutations of it can manifest in various ways while keeping a rhyme between them. a connecting string.
This is the best video series by far. Love running through the story from each POV!
I've always been under the impression that Gollum's ultimate end was the result of him breaking his sworn oath, which he swore on the very item which he ultimately broke his oath to reclaim. But far from it being a merciless judgement type thing, l think Tolkien shows us how pitiable he really was, and doubtless his fate was guided by whatever pity eminated from the powers who meted out such judgement. His end was quick and merciful, and it not only freed him from the Ring, but the whole world as well.
Yeah it is my impression that Gollum's oath to the ring bound him magically - one of the minor powers Frodo is able to access as the bearer of the ring of power. I disagree with the movie's interpretation that there are two personalities in Gollum - there's only one Gollum and Frodo's spell bound him as a servant. The fact is, Gollum is a complex and tragic figure, corrupted by power and ultimately evil in a shallow cowardly sort of way.
A mercy that didn't seem to be granted to the other wearers of the ring; Frodo, Sam, and Bilbo.
@memine2022 aussi Sam was able to recover and live a full and happy life, and Frodo and Bilbo went to the undying lands. That doesn't seem like a bad alternative.
@@davidtatro7457 In the appendixes Sam also went to the undying lands.
Oath/ Curse/devine intervention/Gollums moment of joy are really the same thing or present at the same time.
In middle earth oaths DO have power.
Oath of Feänor and the army of dead for example.
Your videos are gold. Alternate perspectives easily digestible. Thank you
I love that you used a map from Lord of the Rings Online to illustrate Gollum's path through the Misty Mountains. I'm not sure if you play the game, but it tickles me so much.
Well done.
I appreciate both your grammar, and your utterance.
Gollum swore on the Ring and Frodo very clearly told Gollum that the Ring would hold him to his oath at the Gate once again he warned him that if he commanded to jump into the fire the ring would force him to do it. Gollum broke his oath and the ring kept it. Gollum’s doom is also his release there was no boat for him to the undying lands.
I always thought it was weird that Gollum was willing to lead Sam and Frodo into Mordor but never once wondered why Frodo was taking the ring there.
And the screenwriters suddenly made Frodo extremely stupid by having him directly tell Gollum on Cirith Ungol that he’s trying to destroy it, in the movie. Frodo in the book would NEVER have done that.
@@InsaneRabbitDaddy exactly, this is why I find the conflict invented by the screenwriters during the Stairs of Cirith Ungol scene incredibly stupid. In the book, Frodo is fully aware that Gollum is untrustworthy and there’s a high chance he will eventually stab them in the back; he and Sam communicate about this. Frodo is giving Gollum the benefit of the doubt but he never really puts his guard down or assumes that Gollum is suddenly incapable of harm now. This makes his mercy on Gollum all the more amazing, because he knows he’s being risky. But the movie just made Frodo so gullible as to believe Gollum instead of Sam during an argument, which really is nonsensical to the point of absurdity.
@@12classics39 I always assumed that they were hinting as to the affect of the ring on Frodo and how it was warping his judgement. Although I entirely agree it seems odd!
@@MGPortraitArt the Ring clouding Frodo’s judgment to the point where he trusts the wrong person never happens in the book. It was never Tolkien’s intent for a symptom of the Ring’s control over Frodo to be him suddenly turning on Sam. In fact the trust and bond between him and Sam is clearly the antithesis of the Ring’s evil, and IMO anyway, is the key element that helps Frodo resist the Ring for as long as he does (which is longer than was possible for anyone else in the world; Tolkien himself said so.)
@@12classics39 didnt bilbo have the ring for a much longer time?
Gollum, along with the Ents, Rivendell, Rohan, and many other things is what makes Lord of the Rings an amazing tale.
I have always thought that Gollum planned to betray Frodo and Sam to Shelob well before his capture by Faramir. There’s a passage in the chapter Shelob’s Lair, as Frodo and Sam fight to escape her web, of Gollum’s thoughts about recovering the Ring after Shelob has killed them. And it says that he often said this to himself as he walked the dangerous road from Emyn Muil to Morgul Vale.
Agreed. I think that Gollum began to fall back into his scheming before Faramir. It was after the winged Nazgul swept over them in the lands near the Black Gate, before they came to Ithilien (and Faramir). "From that time on, Sam thought he noticed a change in Gollum again. He was more fawning and would-be friendly, but Sam noticed some strange looks in his eyes at times, especially when looking at Frodo..." And at this point, he started having internal debates about "she" who might help him get the Precious back (Shelob). This ambivalence is worsened by Faramir's incarceration of Gollum, then cemented by Sam's mistrustful rudeness just before Cirith Ungol.
Same.
The issue I have with pitying Gollum is that he murdered his cousin *before* he possessed the ring for himself. It is said the ring amplified the user's desire, so maybe murder wasn't in his heart originally, but he certainly was not a good person if he was capable of murdering Deagol. Was it the ring's influence on Smeagol that caused him to murder Deagol? Perhaps, but that's never clearly stated, and nothing like that ever happened to the four other people who possessed the ring after Sauron.
I think as Tolkien was a former soldier in WW1, it wouldn’t be uncommon to see a person who would be considered absolutely sane and normal to loose all sense of humanity and any trace of who they once were? The ring as you say amplifies it so the change is instant in Sméagol? I dont know that’s the only way I can rationalise it to myself?
It definitely dented my opinion of Smeagol
Sure, pity what he became, but he wasn't great to start with
Yeah, it’s really really hard to know how to feel about Gollum when you focus on that part of his story. Like, if he hadn’t found the Ring, would he ever have killed Deagol? Probably not. Then again, as you say, none of the other Ring-bearers ever resort to murder to keep it. Smeagol went nuts 2 seconds after seeing the Ring for the very first time, and killed someone to get it, whereas Bilbo lived with it for 60 years without harming a fly and Frodo carried it for 6 straight months without ever hurting Sam, successfully resisting every time the Ring tried to make him even attack Sam. So I think the comparison indicates that Smeagol really was never pure of heart.
I'm currently rereading the books, and I think the Ring's effect is immediate for at least some people. Boromir first gets tempted by the Ring the moment he first sees it at the Council of Elrond, and he later attacks Frodo at the end of Fellowship to try and take it. Tolkien makes it very clear that Boromir was a good man at heart, but the corruption of the Ring on him was immediate and only grew over the months he was traveling with the party. Perhaps for Smeagol it happened just that fast. It's possible he just wasn't a very good person to begin with, but it's impossible to know whether he had it in him to murder his kin before being tempted by the Ring.
Yet, Smeagol was denied the possession of the ring. He would not have murdered Deagol, if he would just have given it to him. But apparently Deagol was possessed as well. Also, I don't know how it happens in the book, but in the movie Deagol tries to strangle Smeagol first, then he returns it and ultimately wins the fight. You can't compare Gollum to Bilbo because noone ever wanted to take the ring from him, except for Gandalf after the birthdayparty.
If you follow his story completely, using Tolkien's metaphorical concepts - Gollum as a representation of humanity's 'worst' traits - then you would realize that his death was a release from the curse he'd carried since the moment he reached for the ring. Like Adam, his single moment of curiosity turned into a millenia (ish) of tortured near him mortality under the spell of the ring. Frodo's ultimate act of compassion was allowing Gollum to have the release of a real death, freed from the ring after so many years.
Instead of a living death. I'd never seen it like that before.
Wow, this was thought provoking and puts LOTR in an entire new light and tells such a beautifully tragic story that anyone who struggles with addiction and has those around them that struggle with it can relate to. This is a must watch for any LOTR fan.
Thanks for the video.
I like that even in Gollum's evil, his actions saved Middle Earth.
Where’s lotr from Bill the Pony’s perspective?
He actually made it its amazing made me love Bill and Sam so much more ❤😂
Oh, the best by far.
It's just amazing and a showcase to how wonderful this franchise is that over 50 years later, we are still discussing and analyzing Tolkien's work. The goat of fiction 🐐
It was a lot easier to pity him when I had only seen the movies where he's silly and kind of cute at times, but then I read the books and felt much different about it. "He had been sneaking through windows and emptying cradles", which I took to mean he was eating peoples infants 😬😬
Yeah he ate babies, orcs, orc babies he was gross and nasty in the books, they had to make him somewhat “cute” looking in the movies and human looking, he looks more like how he looks in the movie just before he turns into CGI Gollum
@@bruhdon4748 haha movie gollum scared the shit out of me until I was 16 😅 I had to read all the books in order to be okay
@@Nikiforas I had the opposite experience. Dad read us the entire series when I was 5 - my brother was too young to remember it, but I had nightmares about my fingers being bitten off for years off and on until the movies came out. 😅
@@bruhdon4748 After he left the Misty Mountains, he also raided human homes and snatched babies from their cradles
@@bruhdon4748they had to make him look better because you can't have a character with that much screen time be grotesque.
Re-listening to these again, I was struck by the vow Gollum made upon the one ring to protect Frodo, and prevent it falling into the hands of Sauron. Of all the ring bearers, he’s my favorite. He protected it the longest, and sacrificed everything to keep it out of the hands of the Dark Master.
You're a portly fellow, a bit long in the waistband.... So what's your pleasure? Is it the salty snacks you crave? No no no no no, yours is a sweet tooth... Oh! you may stray! but you'll always return to your dark master: the coco bean!
Beautiful analysis. 🙏🏼 My 4 year old boy has taken up a huge love for Gollum in particular. He likes his voice when we read. And I think the hobbits (and the reader) showing Gollum love is Tolkien’s brilliant way of instructing us we cannot defeat evil with hate, and it’s only love that brings the light.
You're correct, Gollum is a wonderfully written character.
Your attention to detail on this topic satisfies a part of my brain that thinks about these things often while i watch movies
pity is one of humanitys true strengths, along with selflessness hope and love, which tolken understood, after all pity is the start of all charity which is also love. i always see the conflict after being bound so long, yet there is a kindness still and he was tricked that must have stung so badly
Amazing! I am re-reading The Two Towers now after many years and this video turned up, just at the moment when I am at "The Forbidden Pool". It is a most wrenching moment when Frodo is torn and Gollum is captured.
Gollum might be the most important character in all of the books in a way.
I agree with you
I feel you 👍
Of course he is. The Ring would have never been destroyed without his innocent joy at reclaiming it. After all, everyone who took it to Mount Doom were turned. Why would it not be the strongest at it's making place?
No one could destroy it willingly. That's already been established. He was the ONLY one that was capable of taking it to the ending, given the circumstances. Eru was playing 4-d chess. :)
Tolkien once got a letter from an "S. Gamgee" and he related that he was worried he'd get another letter from an "S. Gollum".
Gollum is an allegory for addiction. I had always wondered how Tolkien could have such a modern understanding of addiction, as we do now after the war on drugs and various overdose crises, but it makes sense when you consider his participation in the first world war, where he would witness firsthand the ravages of morphine addiction
Nah. Gollum is one of those very Christian allegories Tolkien worked into his work. The ring is greed and temptation and Gollum is meant show the consequences of those to the reader
nah
I always wondered how Gollum seemed to know what the ring was or who created it. Frodo and Bilbo were none the wiser, gandalf spent years researching it to be sure, but despite living in a cave for most of his life Gollum displayed a shocking amount of knowledge. Did he overhear things while in captivity? Did Sauron outright tell him? It's a mystery to me, but he knows the Ring calls to Sauron, he recognises who Sauron is, he knows a fair amount.
These videos are so fantastic. They make me wish that Amazon had instead made a more in depth and true to the books LOTR series and not ventured off on the disaster that is the Rings of Power. There's just endless amounts of perspective and nuance to explore that would be great to see on the screen.
Gollum's escape from Moria could only have come *before* the Fellowship reached the Bridge of Khazad-Dum, at which point it was destroyed. Frodo, who was the watchman in the 23rd Hall the night before the Fellowship was attacked, though he saw Gollum's eyes in the distance. If Gollum had quickly taken the eastern exit and down to the 2nd Hall, he would have been able to cross the Bridge, although I'm baffled that the orcs didn't guard it. He was also apparently able to evade the orc-guard inside the Eastern gate.
He's very sneaky, and the orcs weren't even aware of the Fellowship until they found Balin's chamber.
The window high up. Gollum backtracks, finds the window, climbs out at night and down the mountain, and then resumes pursuit. Or he knew of other ways out of Moria.
If he knew other ways out he wouldn't have been "trapped."
I always get a little lost trying to follow how Gollum could’ve just easily gone through all the peril in that part of the story. The company barely makes it, but Gollum is just always following with little effort.
@@gelatinousjoe7979 Gollum, at the time of the Fellowship travelling through Moria, had been wandering the wilderness for literally years, and had the instincts and skills of a wild creature. He was described by the Woodmen of Mirkwood as "a ghost who drank blood," meaning he was so cunning and stealthy that he was as invisible as a ghost. Gollum also had been dodging goblins for centuries in the Misty Mountains, so it would have been no trouble at all for him to dodge the goblins of Moria.
One is led to wonder if the destruction of the ring would then release Gollum from his suffering, had he lived. Excellent video, as always.
I think Tolkien made it easier to feel pity for Gollum because he was never the demise of any character’s the reader cares about. We know that from the moment he is in the presence of The Ring he is not only capable of murder, but that of close a relative. Yet, his acts of violence within the novel never resulted in a significant death other than his own. Still, I think most important role Gollum plays, along with Bilbo, Frodo and Sam, is showing us that the true power of The Ring is the manipulation of the bearer desire. Those with simple desires had a greater ability to resist such manipulations.
It is noted that he broke into houses and ate babies while looking for the ring, though.
This was beautiful.
And so insightful. It really makes me understand the depth of the book and makes me want to read them.
I honestly think Smeagol always intended to betray Frodo. There are moments when he does seem to be on the verge of repentance - like that one time he was watching Frodo sleep - but I never got the impression that he ever did repent. Samwise' distrust doesn't exactly endear him to the Hobbits. Frodo's assistance in capturing Gollum for Faramir didn't help either, but I never got the feeling he would have ever taken a different course of action. Keep in mind, the reason he was taking Frodo and Sam through Ithilien was to lead them into Shelob's Lair to start with.
Gollum also provides a glimpse of what could have happened-and almost did happen-to Bilbo and Frodo if they had kept the One Ring. He also demonstrates the resilience of Hobbits-500 years with the most powerful and evil of the Rings of Power, and he didn’t fully become a Wraith and still retained a vestige of his former self.
***Morbid comment warning***
My brother died in a car crash this morning. He was heavily addicted to hard drugs, and showed signs of serious mental issues leading up to his death - we tried our best to help but it wasnt enough
I came here because his death made me feel a similar way to that of Gollum's death - You could see glimpses of the good in him and I HOPED he would redeem himself, but something else had taken over. This world wasn't for him anymore. I am obviously upset but at the same time releived that all of his suffering, self inflicted or not, is now over.
"Death is just another path, one that we all must take"
Rest in Peace big bro
@MrVook How are you holding up?
@@chrispolo4601 Can't believe it's been 5 months already.. I'm doing good though - thank you for asking. Believe it or not, Tolkien's work was therapy and provided me an escape in a way. Really appreciate the concern, Chris. All the best 🤝
I am so terribly sorry for what you, your family, and he all must have experienced. I genuinely hope you have the support that you need. I know it hurts, so please accept the love and help that you need to get through this. And reach out to people when you need to. I wish you grace and healing. I'll keep you in my thoughts.
@@ericthompson3982 I really do appreciate that, Eric!! It still feels surreal sometimes - just a few days ago I drove past my brother as he was riding his bike. I was going to call out but stopped myself because my baby niece was sleeping in the back seat. As I passed him, I started to stick my hand out the window, waving at him before realising it wasn't my brother at all. Part of me had just forgotten what had happened for a brief moment - I'm still not "used to it"
Thanks a ton for the kinds words though - means more than you know. All the best
I'm so sorry things turned out this way.
That's the first time I've ever noticed the subscribe button light up and flash colors when you mentioned it. Interesting.
I also subbed that was pretty
6:26 Come on, Thranduil’s dungeon had to be an improvement over the cave under the Misty Mountains.
This was a perfect explanation. Thank you so much.
One of the saddest things about Gollum is that if he had died, Sam would have been forced to either kill Frodo or basically watch him take the ring right to Sauron’s hand. And that’s assuming they even MADE it that far.
Probably your best video. Lobe your stuff, watch your videos multiple times.
Literally never been this early
Love the video topic - always interesting to consider a different point of view of the same old story
Excellent video! You missed an integral moment. In the stairs of cirith ungol, gollum has one last brief moment of hesitation before betraying the hobbits. He reached out to touch frodo, and sam awakens to catch him. Sam reacts with suspicion and cruelty, and gollum reverts and doubles down on his plan.
Gollum was bound to betray frodo at some point before they reached mount doom, the ring consumed him. It'd especially be triggered when he'd inevitably discover Frodos plan to destroy it. However, Sam's treatment of Gollum was a catalyst in his downfall.
15:43 “how do you do fellow hobbits”
What a fantastic analysis. Thank you. I have a better and deeper understanding of the story - and I have read it eleven times. Well done and much appreciated.
I wonder what would have happened if Sam had prevented the fire from smoking as he promised he would. Perhaps Faramir wouldn't have captured them, and Smeagol wouldn't feel betrayed and switch back to Gollum? Maybe it's far-fetched that it would affect anything at all, but I always get pissed at Sam's carelessness about that fire.
damn bro! i love how well you phrase and summarize tolkiens work and method behind character developments. i didnt really think about it but gollum really is the main OG character of the entire book. I knew what gollum stood for as for idolize/addiction/greed goes, as well as what the ring does to people much like metaphors irl can be substituted for, but to think gollum was the epitome of Your own person's judgement on a pitiful soul.. thats deeply cool
He didn't take the ring from Deagol. It was a birthday present. From our Grandmother. Lots of nice fancy things she had. Oh yes Precious. Filthy little cheat, FALSE, it stole it from us!
*cough* *spits*
"It's the things we love most, that destroy us."
-Coriolanus Snow
He wasn’t a “hobbit like creature” he was straight up a hobbit, but he was a member of one of the hobbit races that didn’t live in The Shire. But hobbits from the shire didn’t consider any of their kinsmen who didn’t live in the shire to be “true hobbits”. Hell some of the hobbits in the Shire were looked down upon for living in houses and not hobbit holes, since a house is too “manish.” Hobbits we’re a fascinating and special people but they could also be very judgmental, the only reason the rest of the Shire put up with Bilbos in their words “queerness” is because he was rich.
Didnt smeagol live in a hobbit hole with his grandmother near the anduin?
@@somethingfromnothing8428 yes, but his people were desired from the stoors (I think?) and dealt with boats and were quite skilled swimmers, both of which were things hobbits in the shire considered to be “not proper”
@@matthewterlaga3022 hobbits from hobbiton didnt think it was proper. I think the bloodlines were still somewhat stronger for different races in different regions of the shire. The bucklanders would have been closer related to stoors. The tooklanders would have been more related to the fallohides and hobbiton folk more alike to harfoots. The lotr is told from the perspective of hobbiton hobbits at that point in the book so would have been biased towards that opinion, not the opinion of every hobbit from every region
@@somethingfromnothing8428 that’s my point, Sméagol wasn’t from a “hobbit like race” he was a hobbit, but Frodo was biased and didn’t see him as such, since he didn’t come from The Shire.
@@matthewterlaga3022 frodo was half brandybuck and grew up in buckland. He had stoor blood in him and grew up around the ancesters of stoors until his parents deaths
Thank you Robert for such wonderful videos, please keep them coming.
Beeing on super crack for 500 years can have effects on you
I’m an addict trying to recover that’s a great reference lord of the rings thanks for sharing friend.
What does everyone make of the theory that Gollum kills Frodo's parents before journeying to Mordor? They were after all Baggins, just not the right Baggins. Puts a new slant on "boating accident" when you remember how comfortable Gollum was in water.
Not possible, since Gollum never entered the Shire.
Technically, the river was the border. Buckland was outside the Shire proper. But I can't see him stopping after finding a Baggins and being that close to the Ring. I do love the idea though.
He never made it anywhere near the shire
@Paul Rhome exactly. If he had actually found the Shire, even its border, and found Bagginses, he would never have stopped. He'd have found Bilbo, killed him, and reclaimed the Ring. Either that, or Rangers would have captured him and we'd know about it.
I don’t think he ever went to the shire ever, if he did he would’ve kept tracking down Bilbo and would’ve found him honestly, he wouldn’t have known Frodo’s parents were baggins either, it’s too circumstantial, besides why would he just stop with the two baggins who don’t have the ring? He’d keep looking.
In Deep Geek i would love to listem to an audiobook narrated by you! Keep the good work.
Gollums perspective is pretty easy:
Oh those sleazy bastards.
I want my ring.
Sweet I got my ring.
Ouch it burns
Underrated to be honest 👍🅰️
I love how thoughtful your videos are!
The Witch King bragged that no man can slay him; so instead it was a hobbit and a woman, teamed up, who slew him. Likewise, no one could destroy the Ring; so it took two.
I’d say, when it comes to the most principal players, it took five to destroy the Ring:
1) Bilbo by sparing Gollum
2) Frodo by carrying the Ring all the way to Sammath Naur
3) Sam by carrying Frodo
4) Aragorn by distracting Sauron in the Palantir and at the Black Gate
5) Gollum by taking the Ring and falling off the cliff into the Fire.
Your outlook on life is a direct reflection on how much you like yourself.
This well-layered story makes me despise the garbage Amazon has put out even more.
Bravo Robert! Great video Thank You!
Aperently in between Bilbo and Gollum security under Thranduil didn't improved...
Amazing vide. I’ve always wondered how things would look from Gollums point of view.
It's a sad story of long suffering and a ring that binds an unsuspecting man into darkness and ultimately destroys his life... That's why Will Smith keeps his wedding video in LOTR VHS cassette box.
This is really well presented. Great job , excellent narration.
The weight of the ring seems to have an effect like a constant, low intensity attack from a Dementor. It's almost as if the ring impedes or degrades the intensity of positive emotions. You can feel happiness but never as deep and as nourishing when you are not wearing it. Over time, starved of proper emotional 'nutrition' the mind becomes more and more susceptible to darker instincts which the ring no doubt amplifies and thus the bearer becomes 'addicted' to the junk food of narcissism, greed and ambition.
I didn’t even think of that.
He was following behind them and the bridge of Khazad Dum was destroyed.
So either he fled across it before the party did or he knew some other way out of Moria.
I imagine there was some other way out of there. Just think, the Fellowship was in Lothlorien for a month, which gives him plenty of time to find a way out and catch up.
I imagine golem having a heroin like withdrawal ×100 after loosing the ring.
Ever since reading the books, (11yrs before Jacksons masterful release), Gollum has been one of my favourite characters❤.
Another great video by the the best lorestorian on UA-cam..thanks Robert
Why did old age catch up to Bilbo after he parted with the ring, but not Gollum when he did?
Perhaps because Bilbo was only a thief, but Gollum was a kin-slayer, and the Ring is more attracted to the greater evil.
Gollum wore it and used it for murder. Bilbo did not constantly use it and fought the taint. The most evil thing Bilbo was said to use it for after reaching the Shire was to be rude. (Avoid relatives)
I suppose because he had it for 500 years, whilst bilbo only had it for 50, So I imagine it’s power is still having long lasting affects on Gollum. kinda like drugs or smoking, the longer you do it for, the longer it takes for your body to recover back to normal.
That's a movie thing. It didn't happen like that in the books. Old age does eventually catch up with the book version of Bilbo, yes, but not until after the ring was destroyed. That couldn't happen to Gollum, of course, as by then he was dead.
8:19 It is stated in the book that Aragorn tried to catch Gollum several times unsuccessfully
First Breakfast
37th breakfast!!
What an awesome story.
I bet it would make an amazing videogame setting!
Golum had the intention of leading them to the spider's lair before the whole betrayal with faramir, it didnt change from a to z, the plan was always on his mind
In the movie it came about from the “betrayal” of Frodo. I think that’s where the mistake comes from. In the book he has that plan almost from the moment he begins taking them to Cirith Ungol
Thanks for such a great story
I D G !!!!!
Another great LOTR episode. Well done, Robert.
I guess that's what happens when you go passed rock-bottom
This was excellent. Thanks so much!
In lord of the rings, there’s only one cannon. That’s the books. Simple. There’s no two ways about it. The films were amazing. But they’re not true to what he wrot.
Such an interesting character! I hope one day they make a game of of his story!
0:37 Déagol is not Sméagol’s cousin. That’s actually a big misconception. Tolkien never states anywhere that they are family, only he is Sméagol’s friend. Anywhere in the forums on the internet that state it are not accurate.
I always thought the were brothers
@@wildmikefilms here’s another one: Bilbo isn’t actually Frodo’s Uncle, but Frodo is his first and second cousin… once removed 🫨. Though of course, he still refers to Bilbo as his uncle.
@@sourstuff That’s essentially an uncle, though.
I always thought they were lovers, but also cousins.