My Financial Engine Mistake
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- Опубліковано 6 тра 2021
- If you have a high time Lycoming 0320 E2D engine that is having trouble this is where you will inevitably end up. It will happen. Throwing a few thousand dollars at it will not save you any money.
I am going to admit something that I really don’t want to admit, in fact I am embarrassed about it. I am making this program to save somebody and everybody the financial mistake I made when deciding to overhaul a Lycoming 0320 or an 0360 aircraft engine.
So now, as I am entering the other side of an engine overhaul…. and after looking at the engine removed from the plane, sitting there on the pallet, and driving a few hours to Fort Lauderdale and dropping the engine off I started thinking: Could I have done this better… Yes.
Don’t get into the “ I can save it” mentality. When your Lycoming or Continental aircraft engine is over 1800 hours and starting to show signs of major trouble it will be cheaper and more efficient to lower the flag, call it dead and begin the overhaul process at the first sign of major trouble over 1800 hours. This is where I could have saved myself a whole lot headaches- and about $5000.00
Yes! I bought an airplane! This program has some initial numbers and breaks down the monthly expenses. Owning an airplane can be affordable... but the upgrades.... That is what will get me. Watch this program to find out what ownership costs.
Have you always wanted to learn how to fly but now you are over 50? Get out there and start and learn! There are so many people in there 50's and 60's who are just starting to fly so what are you waiting for? - Навчання та стиль
An A&P instructor at Riddle once told the class how simple it is: "Pay me now or pay me later. But you will pay me".
I'll offer a similar, but opposite mistake I made. I owned a C-182 for 27 years. It came with its original O-470 and ran very well. I had coaxed it up to 17,000 feet at one point, flew countless (well, I guess I did count them) hours in IMC and never had any issues. I had a couple of cylinders worked on over the years; however, never ran afoul of bad compressions in my annuals. I really can't remember what possessed me to do it, but I decided to replace the (trouble-free) engine with an O-550 from Texas Skyways (along with new paint and interior.) So, the unquestionable benefit was going from 135 kts to 155 kts TAS. It also had incredible climb performance (so that power on stalls absolutely terrified me.) The downsides, though, were many. The engine weighed more and changed my plane from one where I could load four adults with bags to one where I needed to be much more attentive to weight and balance. If I had four on board, I would have to watch the amount of fuel I took on to make sure I was within the limits. For some reason, I also was never able to get the altitude performance I was able to achieve before (I live in the intermountain west where it matters.) And for some reason - probably somewhat irrational - I never really trusted the engine completely, as I had with the O-470. It got to the point where I was actually looking forward to rebuilding it so that I could sort of re-set the clock on it. Anyway, bottom line is, don't mess with something that is working well and be happy with what you've got.
Sounds very involved!!! It’s best if it works … don’t fix it ! Thanks for watching!!!
You should look at your planes type certificate. If the O-360 is on there you can use that engine without an STC.....
Hind sight is always 20/20.
No need to be embarrassed about this experience. You've provided some great advice. I think aircraft owners need to factor these things into their ownership plan. Thanks for sharing, hope to hear you on the radio again at ZPH soon.
I agree with your reasoning, I just pulled an IO-360-A1B6D with 1800 hours and 42 years since overhaul off my 73 Cardinal RG because it was starting to use oil about 1 quart every 2 hours. I believe that old engine had served it's previous owners well but I did not want to start putting money into that old of an engine, so I decided to replaced it with a Factory Reman. IO-360-A1B6
Thanks for sharing the nuance of your decision making over last several months.
I've personally experienced, automotive related, something similar where I was over-identified with "first" car, and opted to go down the fix-it path vs. cut bait and replace. Took me a while to look at objects like cars just as a financial expense/investment, and that's that.
You'll have a new engine soon, though!!
Very well said, Ted! In my case it was multiple issues at 1474 hours and 25 years smoh that caused me to pull the plug. There is a point where the band-aid approach just isn’t worth it. Get the job and, more importantly, get it done right.
I always appreciate the great information you share and your honesty, Ted. Fly on!
Thanks for watching!!!
I really appreciate this advice. I feel that if I get a plane, I need to have an overhaul or rebuilt engine budget set aside from day one. I'll realistically need to enter into a partnership or flying club for my sub-100 yearly hours.
Great video!
This advice is probably applicable to everything mechanical, planes, bikes, cars, you name it... the more you try to stretch its life with patchwork, the worse it gets. Always better to overhaul or replace in time.
When I saw the damage on the engine, I was kind of surprised that you were going to repair it. If it worked out, it would have made sense. My thought was "what else is about to fail?"
You bought yourself (and hopefully some others) a valuable education! Hopefully this video will help some folks out! Your plane is going to be amazing when it's done. You should look at the Garmin GFC 500 auto pilot. I just upgraded my avionics plan to include it. Really amazing technology.
Good to know. I've got about 1,600 hours on my Cessna 162. I'll take your experience/advice into account.
Sharing is learning 😁
Plus, it is really nice flying behind a rebuilt engine once everything is done. It feels really good knowing that expense is behind me instead of some unknown time in the future.
Absolutely!!!
Been watching all your videos since nancy did a podcast with you
You are an inspiration to people like "us". Just started my PPC journey (7 hours in), and I'm really excited to see where it leads. Already looking at a Cardinal. LOL
A cardinal doesn't fly like a 172. Be very careful.
@@flyingjeff1956 I'm training in a 150, so I'm expecting a night/day difference. The way I look at it, I might as well train in what I fly my family in.
It all depends on the engine, but as I understand, you're more likely to experience failure in the first 200 hours. That being said, the engine will tell you when it's done, regardless of the hours on it.
I was waiting to hear how much that cylinder failure cost. You said you were going to tell us. Now we know. The learning curve almost always makes it's arc through the wallet.
Don't be so hard on yourself! Everything you mentioned imo seemed reasonable.
My plane sat on the ground for a few months due to all of my legacy steam nav/com dying. I'd pull the plane out of hangar every week to run engine on ground to circulate oil for about 15mins. Along comes annual and 1cyl is low but acceptable. I asked shop should I fix it. His response...NO!...Not a problem right now, when it's time do a complete. He advised me that when my nav/com is replaced (Done) and I fly it on a regular basis compression can come back. I have just under 1300hrs left before TBO. Next 50hr old analysis?...🤞
That may be worth it - you are at 1500 hours ! Thanks for watching!
Not sure what engine you have but running it for 15 mins may be doing more harm than good. Check the manufacturers recommendations. The issue is condensation forming if it doesn’t get hot enough. Ground running for long periods (45 mins +) is not good either as there is insufficient airflow to the rear cylinders.
@@user-ek7sb9pl7h I ran it up till operating temp came up to burn off any potential water/acid build up. Typically about 15mins.
I understand what you're saying but two things on that.
1. I couldn't take off in my area without a functional adsb. My legacy s-mode transponder died making tailbeacon useless.
2. What's the difference between bringing up oil temp on ground for 15mins compared to in the air? I don't think the engine knows the difference for a 15min run.
Eventually got everything fixed. About 6 x-countries done this year.
Looking forward to next 50hr oil analysis and compression check during annual.
If you have some factual information I'm very interested in hearing it.
Btw 0-320-H2ad (non T-mod)...yeah the one that's supposedly the worst one built...lol
@@muhammadsteinberg Lycoming recommends at least 1 hour flight not counting taxi, take off and land in order to minimise the risk of condensation. I can’t remember where I read this though ( It might have been in Flying magazine). Might be different for Continental. See your issue with not being able to fly without adsb though. Real rock and hard place. Oddly enough I am having my panel upgraded at the moment but where I am (in UK) I am OK to fly.
@@user-ek7sb9pl7h I may have seen that. Is it the same one that said rotating prop manually to circulate oil is not good?
I know what you're saying though. I recall reading a Lycoming bulletin that pretty much said the POH was wrong (Cessna 172) on leaning. Lol
So many of those things out there they become a fog.
Sorry grandma, you're starting to show some signs of trouble.
Question: Don’t engines repair shops have these engines already overhauled in crates ready to be shipped to owners? If my engine failed I really don’t want to be grounded for weeks or months waiting for my engine to be overhauled. I’d rather just put another “zero time” or overhauled engine that can get me in the air. How’s that work? Why does it have to be the same engine that came out of the aircraft? Thanks for your answer.
Boy I wish that were the case! The reality is that the shops don’t have engines just sitting around waiting to be ordered and that is for a couple of reasons. Number one is that there just isn’t that much business for them to have engines sitting on the stock shelf and number two is that once the engine is built it needs to be run engines just sitting there are really bad because the actual corrosion can take place while it’s inside the engine which is what you don’t wanna have. You want the engine to be billed and then run it right away. These are really high performance high rpm engines and they need to be running all the time. I wish it was that case a lot of the decision for me was to Select an engine company that had a low lead time. I found air Mark was the lowest at five weeks and hopefully they’ll be able to stick to it. Thanks for watching!
Absolutely not! On any given day a shop has no idea what airplane may have an engine problem. Various airplanes equal various engines. Most shops cannot afford the luxury of having expensive engines that may never be used sitting on a shelf.
@@Over50andLearningToFly Was having your original engine overhauled considered? Would that have mattered price or turnaround time wise?
@@TactlessWookie Well when you get an overhaul the engine you may get parts from your original engine it depends what they have either way you’ll get a freshly overhaul the engine with zero time on it ready to go. My number one motivating factor for choosing them was what would have it on my plane the quickest which was air Mark at five weeks. Thanks for watching!
Do you think you could summarize your experience this way?
You're going to have to overhaul your engine soon. Spending $5000 today to prolong spending $30000 (or whatever amount it is) later doesn't change that you'll have to spend $30k later. So do you want to spend $30k now or $35k later?
Exactly! but it would make a really short non interesting video….🤣🤣🤣 thanks for watching!
Let me ask you a question...in February this year my O-360 started producing vibrations and the local field mechanic informed me that i needed to replace Cylinder #4 and so i did.
After only 2 months going into my first Annual inspection with my Piper Archer II the new mechanic found that another cylinder is failing and needs overhaul, cams and lifters are pitted due to NO USE in the past years...it was overhauled in 1999 and has only flown 570 hours SMOH...now i am in your same situation right? one new Cylinder and in need of overhaul...didn't AIRMARK keep your new cylinder and discounted that from their quote? I was thinking that my cylinder has only 11-12 hours on it and i would want to keep it since it is new...did you do the same?
Unfortunately no - AirMark replaced all the cylinders and I actually had replaced two so that was a $2000 loss for me. The problem that happened with my engine and it sounds like it’s similar to yours is that the engine sat for a long time and that’s what caused the corrosion I called it quits with my engine at 1850 hours and on Friday I actually got pretty bad news is that my crankshaft is no good and it needs to be replaced and that put an additional $5000 onto my overall cost which I’m really upset about. You may be in pretty good shape since you’ve got such a low time since your last major overhaul but it’s the sitting in non-use that is really bad. Are you thinking about overhauling your engine?
@@Over50andLearningToFly hi thank you for your reply...yes my mechanic is going to pull the engine out this week, we have one quote from Lawson Aviation which is not bad...will need to look at their warranty and overall turnaround time. I have sent quotes requests to several today, including TRIAD AVIATION which is local to me here in NC...hope that they can give me a good quote so that i can do the transport myself and save the $1000 in shipping back and forth... i hope they can reutilize my cylinder as it is brand new with just 10-15 hours on it and i did pay $5K for that including installation....Isn't it fun?! no it isn't but at the same time i am excited to get me a new engine and be safe...if you see on my last video on here, my cylinder #4 gave up at night returning from a Pilot N Paws rescue flight to Norfolk in December...I don't want any more of those mishaps.
@@lucabaldoni8911 Let me know how it turns out I should get my engine back on 7 July but that email I got on Friday with the new crankshaft needed hopefully won’t set me back in my timeframe. Let me know how it turns out and thanks for watching!
@@Over50andLearningToFly will do!
I have a question. Did you consider a Factory rebuild?
Yes but the leadtime was too much and the overhaul was five weeks away the factory rebuilt was anywhere between 15 and 20 weeks which was too long. - thanks for watching !
I'm in a flying club that went through this. We now have a flying club without an airplane. The leadership thought lowering the hourly rate would encourage more to fly. That didn't happen. The leadership likes to boast we have an airplane for aspiring commercial and military pilots, yet wishes to skimp on the basics. Fix a quirky gps? Nah. Fix the instrument panel lighting? Nah, wear a LED elastic band on your head. Put money aside knowing the engine will require a replacement in a year or two? Nah. Somehow a mystery donor will see how awesome the club is and grace us with financial support. Sigh. All very preventable.
ps Music is way too loud. Please, please please reduce that.
Yeah sorry about the music I need to invest in a microphone and some new speakers on my end.
You know you’re not saving any money by taking shortcuts. And this is what I found out over and over and over again and it was really apparent with this latest engine mishap. Moving forward I am just going to fix everything. Also I am putting in a new interior in the airplane and a new engine monitor more videos to come on that later and… Thanks for watching!
@@Over50andLearningToFly Is this a new airplane? I recall you sold the 177?
No I pulled back from the sale because I found a major problem with the engine so that’s why I am overhauling the engine and I decided to put in a new interior as well and just keep this airplane and upgrade it
@@Over50andLearningToFly I'm sorry, I should have known that...I saw you had new videos out but hadnt seen them yet :)
1800 hours on a O-320 is not high time at all. I rebuilt an O-320 H2A at 2800 hours just because I registered the aircraft in commercial category, but the engine was still in mid 70 compression and perfect oil pressure and oil analysis. Your engine most probably had a period of inactivity and corrosion made its way. It’s not your fault at all. You bought the plane already wounded.
True and the air craft engine was placed in my plane at around 300 hours and also it is over 20 years old so it definitely staff for a while. Anyway it’s time for a new one! Thanks for watching
Was that the T-mod version? Did you T-mod on rebuild?
@@muhammadsteinberg The 68 177 has the O-320-E2D, not the infamous H2AD that needs the T-Mod. I was lucky with my O-320-E2D to 2500 hours without a problem before I overhauled mine.
@@garriewilliam3199 You mentioned O-320- H2A above.
@@muhammadsteinberg Oh sorry, I see now that you were asking Eddy P, my bad
Music is way too loud. Not even necessary. (I was using Firefox) Thanks
I know …. 😢 sorry -
I think a lot of the problem with the audio (for me) was using Chrome. Something happened in the last month or so, and Chrome audio on UA-cam is horrible- heavy bass, heavy mids, and lots of muddled voices. It was so bad I had to switch to Edge- I never watch UA-cam videos on Chrome any longer.
@@rjbishop12 maybe - it was a little loud on my end and I was in a hurry …. 🤣 thanks for watching!
The sound quality of your videos has declined considerably. You need a clip on mic...you sound like you're in a cave. Outdoor vids have much wind noise. Just constructive advice for your very informative and worthwhile videos.
I hate to nitpick but completely agree. The soundtrack music is way too loud and I was struggling to follow what he's saying
Thanks joe! You are right … And I’ll be completely honest with you I hate cords and cables and when I make videos I just want it really easy to pop up my iPhone and record what I’m gonna say but yeah you’re right I really should invest in a good microphone. Thanks for watching!
I just bought a mic !!!! It will be here on Sunday !