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Pilot Refuses to Land
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- Опубліковано 13 лип 2024
- A recent trend that I have noticed is creating a very efficient but unsafe situation
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As a passenger on airplanes, the comment "it would have been tight" does not comfort me. Good for the pilot not taking unnecessary risks.
No kidding. He basically said, "you would have almost crashed, but not quite. I do this for a living."
Try not to be too hysterical. When a controller says something like that, they are not talking about a collision, they’re talking about a “loss of separation“, which actually just means we did not give them the spacing that our rules require. If that departing air India Was only 5900 feet down the runway instead of 6000 feet down the runway, then by the controllers rules it would not have “worked“. But you would’ve never known the difference as a passenger and 5900 feet instead of 6000 is not dangerous, except to one’s career! :-) at least that’s the way it used to be. Nowadays FAA management laughs about operational errors. One of the reasons I retired earlier than I had to.
@@lukeball4937The same excuse used by every tailgater until they need to emergency brake and slam into the car in front.
LaGuardia ops are tight all day, every day. If you hate delays, get used to tight ATC situations.
@@lukeball4937 That's not very comforting either. Willingly exceeding defined operational limits is reckless and challenges the safe conduct of air traffic control.
Delta pilot did the right thing and handled it brilliantly. Always remember, ATC isn't on the airplane.
Pilots always in charge in the air, he can override air control under safety grounds .
As a passenger, I just want to be SAFE.
I shouldn't wind up dead or in a hospital to save some controller's ego.
Exactly. Most ATC are not pilots, and have no experience actually flying an aircraft. Not saying they don't know their jobs or they are bad at thier jobs, it's just different being in an aircraft VS sitting at a radar display.
The Delta pilots made a judgement call based on THIER experience as pilots, and i'd rather they do their jobs rather than let the ATC "backseat quarterbacking" the call. ATC might have been correct, but maybe they weren't. We'll never know, because the pilots made a call that precluded a potential accident.
And in my opinion, preventing an accident from happening in the first place, is much better that trying to mitigate an accident in progress.
@@TurboLoveTrain Thanks for the ugliness. What a world in your head.
@@TurboLoveTrain Evidence?
My two cents, airline pilot here: As you said, controllers get very good at spacing out landings and departures. It's a source of pride. But sometimes, they cut it just a tad too close for comfort for the pilot, and when that happens, and the pilot goes around, it embarrasses them in front of the tower crew. I could hear the embarrassment in his voice.
You're probably right. But, better the ATC be embarrassed, than the pilot and everyone on his plane be dead.
@@GMLGMD let’s not take it too far. Unless the departure aborted, the pilot chose to do the least safe thing left. If he had chosen to land, and the departure did not abort, the worst case scenario is that he rolls out with a loss of separation. In that scenario, only the controller would get into trouble, although the pilot would have to answer some questions, but since he chose the safest thing to do, it would just be some questions. By going around, he is now in a takeoff envelope flying right into the wake turbulence of the departing heavy. You really don’t want to be trying a lot of evasive actions in takeoff configuration while flying into turbulence. That’s why we have rules about wake turbulence. Yes, any good controller considers a go around because of a possible loss of separation as a failure. But good controllers also know, when you’re running minimum separation, sometimes it’s not going to work.
@@lukeball4937 And then there's the punishment factor where ATC sends you to a holding pattern, until they can fit you back in with the flow. Happened to me going in to LAS. Coming in from the east, they turned us on final at less than 5 miles...in front of all the SWA planes coming in from LAX. We were still doing 250 knots and trying to get a 777 slowed while trying to loose some altitude is challenging. I called for gear and final flaps, knowing our airspeed was still above landing flaps speed. But, most airplanes have a safety feature that prevents over-speeding the flaps but as you slow down, the flaps will extend. It was actually one of my better landings...
Controller are strange folks in the US. This is the wrong place for competition and they shouldn’t care about this…
@lukeball4937 Minimum separation is the essential safety buffer - without that it's all in the lap of the gods. And by trying to coordinate such a tight dep / landing scenario, there's really not much latitude for error or failure in the expected normal ops.
You said that in the case of an aborted take-off the worst would be that the ATC would suffer the consequences of a separation breakdown. But what if the dep Air India was slow to roll, had performance issues &/or assorted the landing AND say the landing Delta touched down late &/or had braking issues so rolled longer. Perhaps the Delta was heavy & knew they'd need a long roll-out. You only need 2 Swiss cheese holes lining up to make an accident.
And I might be wrong, but I don't remember an Expedite instruction from the ATC to the Air India aircraft - only advice that the Delta was on a 2.5 mille final.
The Delta PF or PIC couldn't be blamed for making the GA call in that situation.
I really love the calmness in the Delta pilot's voice when he announces he will go around
He's a professional. Good on him.
He sounds Ex Air Force....
Calm and confident.
The land or go around judgement is the pilot’s alone, not the controller’s. No matter how long the controller’s been doing the job. If the controller can’t make enough space for the pilot to be comfortable landing, he has no basis to complain when he goes around. The pilot’s job is flight safety alone, not traffic management.
I think the controller was concerned that he was going to get written up.
@@Flies2FLL No, it wasn't that. He was upset that his plan to make things go extremely efficiently just fell apart and will cause him even more work and inefficiency.
@@Flies2FLL I agree. Do controllers not get 'graded' by how much tin they move per hour, per shift? The more they move, the more they get paid? There must be some incentive.
Same with pilots, no? Isn't there $ incentive to deliver more pax on-time, every day? Otherwise everybody relaxes, spreads out, fewer flights landed, fewer folks moved, plane travel gets worse (again).
Controller ought to be reprimanded for baiting a pilot into an emotional reaction when the pilot is dealing with all kinds of last minute changes, a few hundred feet off the ground.
Either it's the pilot's call or it isn't, and if it is, controller should stfu and stick to his job.
@@press2701is there? There shouldn't be. As a passenger, you would rather crash than go around?
Class act on the part of the Delta pilots. I wish the controller had not made the unnecessary comment in the end. The fact that the controller said, “It would’ve been tight” is a red flag. I completely agree with Kelsey…when you’re operating in a tight environment, the slightest unexpected event could be catastrophic. Delta decided it wasn’t worth the risk. Good decision.
Agree 100%. ATC should have just let it go and said nothing more. On top of that, he knew the reason for the go around so why did he even ask?
Yeah. Only been happening for the last 30 years that I know of
@@GigaGear-tv5jk😊😊
@@GigaGear-tv5jkNot true. I've seen it back in the 80s & 90s, too. Even told the incoming aircraft to 'make S turns on final' to get more spacing!
How to make a join in a half copper water pipe
As a pilot, it's essential to remember that the final decision always lies with us, not with ATC. This fundamental principle is one of the first things we learn. While some ATC folks might get their egos bruised, that's not our concern.
I've encountered this attitude at places like LAX and Long Beach, where some ATC officers seem more focused on their authority. However, safety is paramount, and sometimes that means deciding to go around when it doesn't feel safe. This decision is never made lightly, nor is it about undermining ATC. It's about ensuring we all fly safely.
ATC is there to guide us, but the ultimate call is ours.
You’re 100% correct. Unfortunately, there are other cultures (other than Americans) who have a stronger tendency to defer to Authority, and will follow what they perceive are orders from Authority, such as ATC. And, there are those who may also become complacent when certain practices become routine, even those that might not be ideal.
We see this in all areas of life, when what was once deemed unacceptable just a few years ago, becomes more acceptable later. Some old school pilots with decades of experience would better recognize these types of changes, than perhaps newer, less experienced pilots. And as each year passes, that newer group will eventually make up the vast majority that have no experience with what used to be the accepted way of doing things.
Delta pilot was absolutely cool. Didn’t sound shook or ticked off in any way. When asked why the go around, perfectly appropriate answer in a non accusatory tone in any way. Absolute pro pilot, no doubt. 👍🏻😎👍🏻
Yep.
Graveyards are full of people who said "don't worry, I do this every day".
In this case, the person saying it would not have been the one ending up in the graveyard.
I was going to comment that. But agreed the atc wouldn't have ended up in the ground it would have been the pilots
Stand back, I'm a professional here.＼(^^)／
That, and, "Hold my beer."
I think you mean 'filled by' people who say that.
Great video as always. Really appreciate the Delta pilot not clapping back at ATC. The subtext of just responding “we needed to go around” says it all.
Yep. A pro.
Amen.
ATC trying to blame the pilot makes him the moron here yea.
Yep, though a “So do we.” would have worked as well. ATC could have reasonably be reminded that they are not the only professionals doing their job here.
Mature and responsible on the Delta pilot's part...not so much for the atc.
I used to know an air traffic controller at Newark Airport. He was also a great video game player, but he once told me, "The times that you LOSE a game always involve greed..., like when you go after a power-up you don't need."
He applied his gaming philosophy to his ATC decisions.
The controller was depending on the situation being the best case scenario. In case of any number of problems, the scenario could have gone bad on them. Kudos to the pilot.
Murphy’s Law. Better safe than sorry
That was my biggest concern as well, as a (not professional) pilot. If everything works, everything works. If anything goes wrong, it goes really really really wrong. Why risk it? It's not Delta's fault, or even ATC's, it's the Citation that was too slow getting off the runway.
@@markeewell Absolutely! The Citation was NIT clear if the runway BEFORE he cleared the other aircraft for take off. 'Sntucipated separation' in not supposed to be with a departure and an aircraft on roll out. (Retired ATC. Unless they have a major change to 7110.
Let me just stipulate, that I am neither a pilot nor an ATC. But it is never good practice in life in general to plan after everything being the best case scenario. Especially when lives are involved.
And just practically, when ATC cut it too close to try to save a few seconds here and a minute there, he just creates more work and more delays all around. Doing ur task properly in the first go instead of rushing it is always the quickest solution in the long run. And the safest in this case.
ATC: I do this everyday, Sir.
Pilot: I do this everyday too.
And the pilot wants to CONTINUE flying everyday!
One of them probably has longer breaks between longer continuous shifts.
Pilot: Has thousands of hours of training in flying in general, and to know the capabilities of the exact vehicle that he's responsible for controlling, as well as a halfway decent knowledge of the airport he's landing at.
ATC: Knows the runways like the back of his hand, but otherwise just has a wheelie chair and some screens.
Yeah, uh, I dunno about you, but I know who I'm trusting here.
@@Dee_Just_Dee what does "halfway decent knowledge" mean? are you telling us that pilots in general do not have "decent" knowledge of airports theyre landing at? you speaking like an actual civilian that has never been in a pilot's world. pilots are on average more decent at understanding an airport than most ATC that work there. and if you dont think thats true, then you simply would be wrong.
@@housemana calling something halfway decent is commonly considered to be saying that it is above average. Fairly common use of those words when they're kept together. On their own "halfway" and "decent" mean "average" unless we're using halfway to measure distance of course
Yea, if something went wrong the pilot cant say "cuz the controller told me it would work". Controller is not the one going to take the heat for that
He's also not the one dying either
when your staring out the windshield at 160 knots two and a half miles is not far trust me im a msfs simulator pilot
@@jasontipton8430 golf clap
"Controller is not the one going to take the heat for that" As I put it to my kid when I was teaching him to drive, "If you're waiting at an intersection for a break in traffic so you can make a turn and the car behind you honks, that's not an offer by them to pay your insurance deductible if they are wrong."
@@marcmcreynolds2827 or take the heat literally if it is more than a than a fender bender
Thanks to all Pilots and Crews for keeping us safe!
Good to hear the communication between the two. Good explanation of why the go-around.
*** Pilot chose safety first ! That's always the right decision !
The moment ATC said 'It would have been tight' rings the warning bell. That is a roll of the dice. The Pilot was very professional.........The ATC was not.
even less professional when he whines about the pilots decission... he is NOT on the plane and he is NOT risking his life when he does stupid decission like this... Pilot did brilliantly and kept his cool in his replies.
ATC was a product of the East Coast, and couldn't swallow their pride for a MORE correct decision than their own.
"Thank you, but I don't do 'tight', I do 'safe'."
@@Steve264511 ..or, "I made a statement - NOT a request for comment or opinion of yours."
@@Steve264511 Great comment 👍👍
As a passenger, I remind myself that the pilots want to land safely just as much as I do. Props to the Delta pilot for using his experience to keep all on board alive to fly another day. ATC needs to check his ego at the door.
Why is air traffic control using one runway for take-offs AND landings at the same time?? When I used to fly, I seem to remember airports having dedicated runways for either take-offs or landings; not both at the same time. It's exactly to prevent this kind of disaster. What is air traffic control thinking?
@@williamyoung9401 $$$
This is my motto too. When passengers are getting mad or freaking out about flights not going for weather or mechanical issues I just say "hey, if the pilot doesn't want to fly do you REALLY want to??" 🤔
@@tatlowtimes, I was a flight attendant. People complained about weather and mechanicals all the time and my response was always, "Safety first. The alternative (dying) sucks." Not in those words, exactly.😂
This randomly came up in my feed...glad it did ...this was very interesting to watch!! Thank you for sharing and helping us to understand 😊
Bravo Delta pilot. Definitely, professional and makes perfect sense for the cargo which are people. Safety first always.
That first story.. Is a clear example of the controller seeing just numbers and the pilot is living in the real world.
Pilot remembered there were hundreds of people's lives at stake, while the controller was seeing puzzle pieces needing to be fit.
@@matthewb3113 BINGO! Exactly.
It's not a game, not a puzzle.
Reminds me a little bit of Captain Sully. "Make it human". They operated the whole case based on numbers and NOT the reality of the situation. Same thing here, ATC is seeing numbers and lines assuming the system is gonna keep working, not taking into account the HUMAN factor of what's actually happening in real life.
On point.
I think the pilot's decision is fine, however the controller has likely seen those numbers before and in the past it was tight but it worked. Both pilot and controller can be correct in this case. It could have worked, but the pilot did nothing wrong by going around. If the timing is so tight that controllers shouldn't be asking pilots to do it, that should be codified somehow.
"I do this all the time" is the sound of complacency. That's not part of safety culture.
It's akin to 'hold my beer' lol. It's a dare.
It's the sound of arrogance.
And it's scary, one day it won't work.
@@chongtak fluffy pink teddy bear territory.
@@tjthill me no understand
I was on a plane that did a go-around for a different reason: wind sheer on the ground that made the pilot decide he wasn't on a good approach; he essentially told the tower their judgment of the wind wasn't correct as pertained to his plane.
But his explanation to us passengers was that he wanted to give us a more comfortable landing so he was going around to get a better angle. That made people relax, and most of us actually enjoyed the go-around because it gave a view of the snowy countryside and the light snow falling.
Great situational awareness from the pilot during a time when they're already very busy
I worked in ATC almost half a century ago. The minimum separation was then six minutes; later it was reduced to three, and today (if I am informed right) it is a minute and a half. Modern technology makes that possible, and today's traffic volume makes it a necessity. I learned I could only grant a clearance to start or land when absolutely nothing was on the runway. In this clip the controller says "There will be a heavy Boeing 777 between you and that traffic ... [you are] cleared to land." That is absolutely shocking to me. I also learned that ATC is a service and the captain is the Pilot in Command; his/her decisions count. The behavior of this controller is not OK.
And, "minute and a half" ... ATC was pushing it more than "close" at 2.5 nmi for that 777 entering the runway. At 150knots that's 1 minute flat.
@@ErnestoM2002 always cool to hear from the old timers. In this case that’s literal as well as figurative. :-) I got in an 85 and we always use some type of radar or visual, but occasionally had clearance void times. Things certainly changed in my 26 years, but it’s really hard for me to see all these people thinking that this Delta pilot prevented a collision and deaths, or that a loss of separation meant a collision. I tried to explain it to a few people, but I was just confusing them with facts and experience. But if the initial descriptions were correct, it was pretty obvious, this one was not going to work.
@@lukeball4937 I agree. I think the fact this situation has even become a talking point is because of the hurt ego talk back from ATC, which is at a minimum highly unprofessional, but is being interpreted as his committing unsafe traffic sequencing. At a major UK airport it is quite normal to be cleared to "land after" an aircraft currently accelerating on it's take-off roll in good visibility. The landing aircraft is accepting the role of judging that it is clear to land, that the other aircraft has taken off, before actually landing. I have been landing a 737 and whilst in the flare to touchdown checking that the wheels of the aircraft taking off have actually left the runway (several thousand feet away at the other end!) and it is in the climb out before my wheels touch down. In the event that they aborted we would have rejected the landing and climbed away whilst making a 90° turn away on the missed approach, just as we would if we had seen a vehicle enter the runway in error. Also, I have often heard ATC give tailor made go around instructions to landing aircraft in the event that it may "get tight", such as "BigJet456 in the event of a go around, maintain runway heading, climb altitude 3000 feet", so as to ensure that if his plan doesn't work out he knows exactly where the aircraft will be going. As a side note, at my airport without a displaced threshold, I'd be alert for a potential go around if I hear a departing aircraft getting line up clearance when I am at 3 miles, as long as they don't delay it will be fine, so hearing it at 2.5 miles with a displaced threshold I would be thinking "Oh, come on?!" I just wouldn't want ATC taking the chance that we will have to go around and do it again, adding 15 minutes to an already long day and delaying the arrival of our aircraft on stand. (Belaboured detail for the lay person's benefit, not yours!). The only thing that I feel is unsafe in this video is the snarky come back from ATC, which could emotionally distract the pilots from the high workload go around they are currently trying to fly and monitor whilst raising flaps and ensuring they are tracking correctly and climbing to the correct level off altitude, etc. This, I feel, is the one factor that really stands to degrade safety.
@@CatalinaAVX i’m not hearing anything I disagree with. Cherry on top we’re talking about a couple of heavies. Similar to trying to get a 900 series Boeing 737 to slow down, it’s just not gonna happen. I absolutely agree with you, I tried mentioning what you’ve listed in various other posts but the people with their movie level knowledge of air traffic control, frustrated me into terminating and deleting the threads. As you know, “squeeze plays” go on all the time every day at airports that share pavement between arrivals and departures. Something like this, every pilot involved should have their instructions before they enter the critical stage of flight. Any experienced controller knows If a crew has to go around, they’re too busy flying the plane to comply with a bunch of controller instructions to avoid the plane they just went around for. Good controller,knows, you always leave yourself an out just in case the departure aborts or the GA citation dawdles down the runway, or misses their turn, or pulls a head fake where it looks like they’re turning off the runway, but then they decide that they want to go to a subsequent intersection. The unspoken part that a lot of people miss is that they seem to think that, why not just wait? As if there isn’t another plane a couple of minutes behind these guys. I 100% agree, I am embarrassed for the profession by what the controller said. It wasn’t the place or the time, and it didn’t matter anyway. The situation was resolved. The controller could’ve been right. It might’ve been a squeeze play that did work and was a legal operation by the book, a good controller would’ve moved on. I could see asking if the go round was for a mechanicalor wake issue, but you don’t have judgment discussions on the frequency, that’s what the telephone is for.
@@lukeball4937 totally agree with all you said, and also a pleasure to listen to a professional speak. I had not heard the term "squeeze play", but now I'll think of it every time my finger is hovering over the TO/GA button! As the Queen used to say, "Never complain, never explain.", our controller in this video could have taken some high ground and benefit of the doubt by replying "Roger(.)". Hope you have a great day.
ATC: "Looking good on radar!"
Plane: Has a giant octopus attached to the windshield.
ATC: It's a squid not an octopus.
Pilot: *counts 8 legs*
I imagined a Blooper, like from Mario Kart, obstructing the pilot's view. 😂
Tower is primarily a visual position
@tboneisgaming ...although he's still not going to see the octopus because of the cephalopod's ability to camouflage. 😁
@@Fadamor Heh...you said pus.
This channel is so compelling. Explaining how air travels works with all the moving parts is incredible… and frightening.
Passenger safety is number one. Kudos to the pilot whose plane turned around.
One of the first things I was taught; a go around is NEVER a bad decision, and whoever makes the decision is never going to be countermanded or criticised. One of my early landings I got into PIOs, my instructor was just about to take the controls when I decided I was going around, he just came off the controls and left me to do it. Afterwards I was told “good call”.
Always give yourself time, driving or flying. Time gives you thinking and space to work out problems
Just be careful with that "Never" phrase. Say you just diverted because of weather, then did a go-around at your alternate, now you don't have enough fuel to go-around and make another approach. Better make that last one count.
Kelsey's own experience tells you otherwise. In his case he thought that a go around *would* have been the worse decision.
@@Fastvoice point being that he decided NOT to go around, so not really countering my comment at all.
@@flightcamps9041 then one would hope there was no need for a go around. Quite frankly if you get to that stage on fuel there needed to some much better decision making well prior to that point.
ATC added a new hole to the Swiss cheese model by adding the triple into the mix while the Delta was on a configured and stable final approach. I appreciate ATC there are overwhelmed, but adding risk to flight doesn’t always end well. Crazy. Kudos to the Delta.
Yeah, I thought, it was tight, but could be managed just fine with the Delta about 2 minutes behind the Citation. But trying to have a 777 heavy take off in between? I dont know, how ATC thought, that was ever going to work.
Last night, I flew into Hannover with BA978, I sat in 15f above the wing, 20 mins into the flight, the motors for the flaps started screaming, soon after the captain called the cabin staff to the cockpit, before we landed, he informed us that the plane had malfunctioned and we shall see if we can get to the gate. The plane landed, no reverse thrust, heavy braking on and off, we used most of the runway, emergency services awaiting to spray foam. Once the services said all was ok, a tug then pulled us to the gate. Apparently, hydraulics had failed, the air braking flaps remained at an obtuse angle, remaining flaps extended and the baggage doors could not be opened. The captain and crew were great, calm, reassured the pax until we finally disembarked. I collected my bags this morning and was told the plane had been grounded.
Glad you and everyone else made it down safely and had a good pilot.
ATC to Flight Crew: "Do this". Flight crew: "Unable". End of story. Thanks 74 Gear for providing perspective!
As a military helicopter mechanic 40 years ago, I learned the phrase "General Flight Safety always has the command." Nobody can break, speed up, or change this command.
That was a very good decision by the Delta pilots. The ATC needed a kick in the butt to remind us to always maintain our safety margin, because we never know when we will need the margin.
If the air traffic controller had to ask the pilot "Why" he didn't land, he needs a vacation and some re-training. His 'Obvious-Detector' was malfunctioning that day.
Very well said.
@@williamyoung9401 When a pilot conducts a missed approach, a controller needs to asscetain the reason for the missed approach for reporting matters.
@@ilyer4199 that part is fine, but I do not think ATC needed to add the additional commentary of "it would have been tight, but it would of worked"
An irritated controller is a disadvantaged controller. Great job by the Delta pilot. Great video and commentary, thanks
My dad was a Controller in the 70s in the DFW Regional airport and had to go to a school to learn the new equipment for the new DFW Int'l Airport being built. It was a stressful job even then.
Hey Kelsey I think I've binged all your videos within the last month. Hope you keep making them. I admire your sense of humor and positive attitude. All the best.
I'm not sure the controller's response to the Delta's go-around quite reached 'snarky', but it wasn't far off. I'm 100% behind the pilot.
It was 100% defensive and irritated though; And I'm not sure how well irritated and safty go together.
he gave him a # to call. That means a report.
The Captain has full authority of his ship.
@DaftyBoi412
The ATC gave the Pilot a #.
Not the other way round.
Which means an incident report.
@@DaftyBoi412
PS
You're daft boy.!
Did you even listen.
The default setting for JFK controllers is "snarky".
PIC is exactly that. Pilot In Command. He/she has ultimate authority regarding the aircraft, passengers, and overall safety of that flight.
A go around is always the right thing unless you fly for PIA and land with gear up.
PIC?
@@K1OIK What don't you understand?
@@aaronbrown6266 PIC? Like water PIC?
@@K1OIK Pilot In Command.
I liked it when you mentioned "If you feel it in your gut". That was something my dad taught me as a kid. If you feel it's wrong / not safe, listen to your gut. When my dad was seriously hurt as a roofer, he said his gut told him not to do this or that, he did, and then ended up in the hospital, when he knew he shouldn't have been walking across those roof planks and fell with his arms going into hot tar buckets and was badly burned. Listen to your gut,... darn right!
Big props to the pilot. Much better than the mindset to "land at all costs"
You're always going to land, but you might not be able to take off again...
As a passenger, I'm delighted when my pilot doesn't want to try "tight" landings....
As a now retired former Delta flight attendant, I had 100% trust in the flying skills of all our pilots.
The captains of the planes always have the last word on decisions made onboard the aircraft.
ATC, not as much.
ATC cares deeply what the flight attendants think😂
@@timinclt7895 👍🏽🤣🤣🤣💀
@@sherrinunya4079 i don´t trust that pilot from Malaesia
I NOTICED YOU SAID “HAD” TRUST OF THE DELTA PILOTS? WHAT CHANGED FROM “HAVE TO HAD” TRUST IN DELTA PILOTS?
@@davidlangford9107 Because he is retired now and has no way of knowing the skills of current pilots are you dumb or what
I just LOVE the way you are "nuanced" about the various positions and judment from different perspectives. The world needs more people like you (not only in the aerospace world... EVERYWHERE...) understanding the others view! BRAVO... Please continue! Problems and issues get solved by understanding the different points of view and finding the best tradeoffs.
"it will be tight"
famous last words
What you described on your approach and why you chose to land just happened last week. A pilot decided to go around (justifiably IMO) and the vertical separation between the plane going around and the plane taking off was like 700’. It was all over the news. My first thought when I saw the story, with video footage of the planes, was “I can’t wait for Kelsey to do a video about this.” I hope someone has sent you the video. It was remarkable.
"it would have been tight" is not what ATC should ever say
That set of a fire alarm in my brain. The ego on that guy, and he even admitted he was pushing it. Hopefully he learned to back off a little bit because after all it is the airline who is paying to land there, the pilot doesn't have to change their risk tolerance or owe anything to the ATC until he lands.
“It would have worked as long as nothing went wrong.”
Ya if he said “you had plenty of space” then the atc guy is just wrong. Acknowledging it was going to be tight shows the ATC guy has reckless habits. Tight leaves no margin for error
It would have been tight...but within safety margins is what he meant. Not that it would have been tight to not crash in to the other plane.
@@zachansen8293 Please explain how you land on a runway that has a plane on it without crashing. Is Air India known for takeoff reliability when they already sound stressed as Kelsey replayed for us?
The US method of clearing aircraft to land before the runway is clear maybe more efficient but it is also less safe. Incidents of this nature cannot occur if traffic are not permitted to be CTL until the runway is clear of all traffic.
you are awesome! Thank you for taking your stand to be a responsible pilot!
As an American controller in a very busy airport, as of the last few years he doesn't have any credibility in the "IT would have fit bro trust me" department. So many VASAviation videos are just ATC screwing up and packing planes too close and trying to get themselves out of a corner.
What happens when you get the planes on the verge of losing separation, because you got them so tight, and then the landing aircraft gets a windshear alert and starts a windshear escape maneuver and a go around? Whoopsy, the landing, light on fuel plane is going to be going to TOGA power and closing quick on the aircraft climbing out, Now ATC would have two planes in regimes of flight where they really shouldn't be turning (
I saw one were the pilot told the ATC yeah I'm going need a number to call when I land.
Thanks for this video. I now have another insight into why take off and landing are such critical times on the flight. As the passenger, keeping the blue side up is my mission, too so I'll be buckled up tight and praying harder that all you pilots get exactly what you want while flying us in and out and all around the world and that towers everywhere remember that the same situations can present differently on the screen and in the sky. Safety First.
China as to u.s.a ...... China not profit operations for reason of existence.......u.s.a. profit for existing...as to subject of video only ...hey just maybe ?!!!!!!!! Ha ha ...get it !!!!
Bro it looks okay on radar the dots haven't merged yet lol.
"I do this every day, it would have worked" reminds me *so hard* of dispatch talking to drivers in the 18-wheeler world.
The Delta pilot remained completely professional in his communication, the ATC sighing and arguing .. not so much. Pilot did a great job.
It’s almost like someone’s job is constantly higher pressure than another…..🙄
This is why I fly Delta. I trust them.
Controller was out of line. “I do this every day.” So does the pilot, jackass.
If pilots accept this "squeeze" by ATC , only more will come... someone has to be an advocate for safety, the pilot whose life, and that of his passangers, is ideally positioned to push back against this ridiculous situation....
suppose that pilot has been in that situation a few times before. at this airport.
I completely respect your analysis, I have been on many flights where congestion on the ground was needing cleared before landing. This is always the right decision !
As a controller in BOS from the 80’s, I had both happen. Once a jet felt uncomfortable and went around and passed the departing plane. While safety was maintained, the passengers got a shock as they passed the other plane! The pilot caused more issues by going around.
Then I had a pilot refuse to go around after being instructed to… he said “no, we will continue”… problem was that we were totally fogged in and out ILS was down and pilot was off course for the runway. Eventually I demanded he go around…He lost his license after the court case…
ATC is 100% going home tonight. If I’m 99% going home, I get to decide if I go around.
(1-1/n)^n chance of success goes to about ⅔ chance of failure. Controller does what, 200 shifts a year? 20 years, 4000 shifts, ask pilots to take 1-in-4000 risks once per shift about ⅔ of controllers will cause an accident during their career, that is *wildly* unacceptable. Google tells me one in about 3000 takeoffs are aborted.
@@tjthill You missed the comment, try to read it again or get a third party to assess your understanding of the comment. I understand, you are neurodivergent.
@@eaglemach9992 Did you know kettles are shiny? Like, you see yourself when you look at them?
Seeing how this is being covered by channels like this, this was made into an incident report. This controller getting retrained / changing career may very well save lives.
"His opinion, I'm sorry, doesn't matter"
It made me chuckle
This is the first of your videos UA-cam has brought to my attention in quite some time. As usual your analysis is SPOT ON.
I also noticed you have a new pair of shoulder boards, Congratulations Captain!
Congratulations Captain Kelsey. Well deserved.
I love these videos. I will probably never fly again, did too much in the 1980s and 1990s. but I also spent 1981-1992 working for a flight simulator company, worked on radar simulators for US military aircraft. And so I have this enduring love for aviation. I also worked with US Navy trainees and instructors, and acquired a great deal of respect for pilots. Mind you, that was nearly back in the Pleistocene...but still, pilot quick thinking saves lives.
There are other reputable aviation channels but somehow Kelsey is able to bridge the gap between professional and cool.
It feels like just one of the guys telling you how it is. Never get any morally superior vibes from Captain Kelsey. Very refreshing to listen to a human.
him and mentor pilot are the two I follow
Hi! Do you know Pilot debrief? Hoover is such a concientious guy. Try him once a tell me if you like him.@@DenseGrowthOfTrees
Atc even admitted it was unsafe by saying “it would’ve been tight”. That’s one thing as a passenger on a landing jetliner I never wanna hear!
1:13 "I'm just making up numbers. I don't fly the 767 [I'm not a peasant]" 😂😂😂
As just a regular occasional flyer both the controller and the pilot inspire confidence in the whole flying process, both seem like top notch pros! Also the view @13:44 is beautiful!
In the UK when landing at a airport with an information service like EGCB (Manchester Barton) the FISO will say "land at your discretion" as even without traffic, as a pilot if I'm not happy then it is 100% my call if I land or not. This pilot did 100% the right thing and acted in the most professional of manner. Well done :)
Great work putting this together. The use of clear graphics and the overlapping replays of radio traffic kept everything in context. Thanks.
Eliminate ALL Variables!!! That's my motto, and what i teach my apprentices in the electrical field on how to get our work done efficiently! they will learn over time, and some are smarter than others, but that is my number one rule in how we approach our process of work in general! from bending conduit, planning the size of wire we run, to how we approach the order of work that we send our guys in to do, in order to get the job done on schedule.
This rule, albeit i am sure it was done unconsciously, was the exact process that the pilot used, and i am proud of him, and without knowing the Sir, can definitively say, that he, Definitely eliminated ALL of the Variables!
Thank you for keeping us up-to-date on the events in the area around Grindavik. Your videos & explanations are the best way for us to stay current.
I love how you explain things so people with no knowledge of flying can understand.
This has become more and more common and it is a deadly game that ATC is playing.
From ATC and often also the airport management that sells more slots to airlines.
"Deadly game"
... hmm, let's take a closer look under the hood of the current hiring practices of the FAA
oh my
@@TurboLoveTrainthat is not how this works. No matter who the FAA hires (if you’re trying to hint at diversity hiring) there is still competency-based certification and hundreds of hours of training. The pilots and controllers will always have to certify based on strict standards. For pilots it’s the ACS. No matter what they LOOK like if they don’t meet the standard they don’t work. Cut and dry. I would like to know your experience with aviation to make you think that diversity hiring causes most of these problems?
@@eugenemccary4748 in my experience what you are saying is partly true.
There are many fine pilots regardless of genetics.
The reality is that DEI quotas have led to lower selection and competency standards.
This is true for ATC the Airlines and the Air force. All of which I have worked in 40 years in aviation.
@@eugenemccary4748
If you don't meet the standards those standards will be lowered until you can.
This isn't new.
I worked in cabin systems, signal deconfliction, then moved on to material stress testing and component design for fracture critical systems like landing gear and jet engine fan blade attachments.
Cost cutting and hiring policies have lead to lower standards across the board and the results are observable--more equipment failures and "near misses" like this. I left the aerospace industry because this was happening and I don't fly anymore.
From what little I know about landing and take off procedures, including regarding such a tight squeeze as the one you were in on your approach, and considering your speed and the weight of your aircraft and considering the eventual speed and take off time of the aircraft waiting to take off, I agree that you made the correct decision under such circumstances, including avoiding any possible problems that could have been created if different decisions were made, by you, by air traffick control, or by the other pilot.
Great additional visuals.
Helps we nonpilots understand the complexities.
Love to fly.
Flew a few 150s & 170s in my earlier years.
You're great at this.
Thanks
To my understanding, according to ICAO Annexes ATCs can't really tell pilots to do anything, we can only give them "advice" it's also stated clearly that the final decision is for the PIC to make. Delta's PIC made his decision and us ATCs can only acknowledge and continue to service that plane. Delta's PIC handled it flawlessly. That reply to the ATCs tantrum was so calm and collected "We needed to go around". Respect
ps. I'm studying ATC in college
10:13 (JFK Tower) "I do this every day sir. It would have worked"
(Delta 45) "Oh, I'm sorry. Surely you have MUCH more experience flying this aircraft than I do. My bad."
Hopefully this controller was given a sit-down with his supervisor and they discussed how his ego means zip-point-squat when it comes to the safe operation of an aircraft.
It might've worked if the India flight didn't need to abort takeoff. ATC must understand that they can't have multiple planes on the same runway at the same time -- basic common sense. Too many flights in too little time is going to result in a bad crash eventually. ATC is playing games with people's lives.
It's not even that. It's not about the pilot being more of an expert (even though they are), it's the terrible reasoning by the controller. "It's worked before, therefore it'll work now" is one of the oldest logical failures we know about. It's more well-known as a post-hoc fallacy. Just because he's done it so many time doesn't mean it's going to work _this_ time.
The point shouldn't be experience, but position. The pilot is flying the plane. The controller is giving directions. The pilot has the final say, _always._ That's the expected respect that a controller should give. Even without the logical failing in the reasoning, it's still overstepping their bounds to suggest their say should have been the final one, as the controller did here.
The quick response should have been, "confirmed, [instructions for the go-around/landing]". Then again, unless they did it for data collection purposes or whatever, the controller probably shouldn't be asking anyway. Again, pilot has final say. If they ask for a go-around, then that's their call.
Would you elaborate on the meaning of zip-point-squat please?
@@Ilgenfixit80 his ego means zip-point-squat (0.0).
@@Ilgenfixit80zip is a colloquial word for zero. Squat is also a colloquial word for zero.
"Zip-point-squat" is "zero point zero" (0.0), or nothing, which means he's saying "Your ego means nothing."
Keep doing your new vlog thing, but I’m very happy to see this kind of video again! Thanks Kels!
I'm only a private pilot, but I totally relate to the difference i have seen with controllers holding me for a plane that is FAR out and seems to take forever to land before they let us go, then on another occasion, I'm coming in on short final hearing the controller give the guy clearance for take off right in front of me. I even radioed that I was on short final and the controller said, "your OK, just finish your landing" My plane is NOT FAST but I had never been that close to landing and had another plane pull out in front of me to take off as I was landing. So I can relate.
Did a trip as passenger from Copenhagen to London Heathrow a few years ago in a BA 767. It was a bumpy trip and I knew with Heathrows East-West runways there would be a big crosswind. Sure enough on finals there was a lot of turbulence and the plane did a go-around. Several passengers expressed alarm and the captain made a brief announcement to apologise for the extra air time and the turbulence. Personally, I felt this guy knew what he was doing and relaxed, knowing he wasn't going to risk the lives of his passengers and crew. The second attempt was perfect. I wish I had been in the jump seat to see how he did it.
" Personally, I felt this guy knew what he was doing and relaxed,", do you ever get on an aircraft thinking the pilot doesn't know what he's doing?
@@colinpotter7764 nah, but sometimes you realize halfway how sh.t they are. i survived eg. a flight where the pilots did full flaps!! mid-flight. on cruise height. on an a320. it was insane. pure insanity. they also did not use the autopilot the entire 3-hr flight. i said so many thanks to engineers after that flight, there must be so many backup safety systems on an a320 that ensured we didn't die from the stupidy of the pilots that day. (it was in SEA on a smaller airline.)
Always taught PIC is in command of Crew, Craft, Cargo, ATC is in command of a mike button.
This brings back memories of being on a relatively long final for 5 at ORF in a 172, and the controller comes on the radio stating, "Cessna nine five alpha, expedite final and exit runway at your earliest convenience. Heavy following on long final."
Didn't have to tell me twice. Flaps up, throttle up, wheels down just over the threshold, and off at Alpha still carrying a bit of speed. I'm sure tower saw that I took him very serious. 😅
Great video and great to give insight into the professionalism of pilots making the right call for their safety and the safety of everyone on board
If that Delta Pilot ever sees this, shout out to you sir. The right call was made.
How to make Kelsey always land without refusal: Offer free snacks at the gate.
Would worj on me too! And I´m not even a pilot!
"without REFUSAL."
Learn simple 3rd grade words.
We don't want to be punished by your ignorance.
@@user-dh6bj2me5p corrected it before but I’m glad I finally got a personal smartass here by my side. 🙌🏻
😂😂😂
@@user-dh6bj2me5p
And yet, somehow you comprehended what they said and what they meant.
Stop being a third grader.
I love your wrap on this. We pilots, by nature, are very sure of ourselves, so making us happy makes the world just right. I got squeezed into that box in STL one day, back in the days when TWA was still there and STL was a major speed bump in the system. The arrival had us fast with a last-second slow down programmed. Tower put a 777 onto the runway in front of us. It took its jolly time spinning up to roll. The parallel (12L) wasn't available. In the crunch, I kept it as slow as possible, began the go around as late as practical, and sneaked a bit to the right to keep the 777 in sight. Tower and approach weren't happy with me. The trip around to pattern to get back on short final was about 45 minutes. So many airports can get like this at times, making it quite tempting to press things ("It would've been tight, but...") to the limits, but pressing to the limits is for flight test and combat ops - not for flying your friends and neighbors safely across the country. Nice video. Thanks.
If I were the air controller’s boss I would have given him a small verbal warning
I went to school with that Delta FO. (He's a hell of a trumpet player too!).
Guy sounds like a real pro
Those four stripes on your shoulder sure look good
Did he just become a captain?
He's been a captain for several several months now😊@@CoolioAlert
@@CoolioAlertno. It’s been a bit. Look back at the videos. He never announced it just showed up with the new bar 😊
@@CoolioAlert he’s been a captain for a while, but I still like reminding him that we all think is awesome
@@angelraburn4401 Yeah, that was a moment, right?
All of sudden, we are pausing the video to double check what we saw...wait, what?? Wow!
🤣 i’ll go for the pilot every time!👍 good for you. 🥰
All the moving parts in these situations is nothing short of miraculous
"There's no way that was going to work..." Good call sir! ATC failed, then rubbed it in.
What the controller said is uncalled for.
The pilot said, "Affirmative". Tower is not in charge of his plane!
You could tell the ATC was pissed Delta didn't land.
There was a huge sigh. His ego was bruised. His comment at the end was very petty. Sort of "I know better than you" mentality
Had something a little like this landing (as a passenger) at Heathrow once. An aircraft in front landed and was supposed to vacate the runway, failed to make the requested exit and stopped on the runway (I guess to ask instructions).
Our Virgin Atlantic pilot went around (LHR ATC trying to get planes landing as closely as possible), and when settled explained that our sluggish departure from Narita had been caused by this same plane being hesitant taxiing out. We'd then followed it all the way over China / Russia. And then we got held up again due to hesitancy on the ground.
The pilot did an excellent job of conveying being totally and utterly narked off without explicitly saying so, remaining professional. You had to be properly British to understand it.
In the UK, You do not get a clear to land until the preceding aircraft is clear of the runway
@@CDB8939 That doesn't mean you're not deep down in the approach to the runway.
This was an approach into 09L I recall (definitely from the west), and I think we'd cleared the M25 (which is about 1 mile from the aim point) when the power went back on and we headed back up into the murky weather.
@@abarratt8869 In the USA they clear aircraft to land that are number 3 in the line, at least here the pilots know they are not cleared until the runway is clear
"It would have been tight but it would have worked"
He rejected the landing because it was "tight".
The title is Click Bait he didn't refuse to Land it was a go around The pilot didn't say I refuse he said there going around
Same thing.
If the pilot thinks it's too close it's too close. If it doesn't look good it doesn't look good. You're also dealing with wake turbulence. What's the wind? Right you don't know. Should always make a choice according to what you're comfortable with. Something doesn't feel right don't do it.
Seems to me that I've heard over and over better to reject a landing than risk a crash. Go around is a safe decision.
@@glennchartrand5411 Glenn if you're a pilot I'd suggest you find another hobby
If I was on a plane going to land at at the last minute the Pilot pulled up and we went around I would think, GREAT job, you probably just saved our lives.
The spacing was a bit too tight, the Delta crew saw that and decided to throw away the approach. My plane, my call. Period. 100% professional. No attitude, no ego.
NY controllers can be a bit intimidating. NY'ers period. (I'm a NY'er so I know). Still in all, there was no need for the controller's unsolicited opinion.
I keep saying the "C" in ATC needs to be changed to "Coordinator". They don't actually control shit. A good Go-around always beats a bad landing.
2 things. I agree with you, whether flying a plane or driving a vehicle, it's best to avoid a possible danger and find out you didn't need to than not avoiding it and wishing you did. Then in you pilots' defense, as Captain Picard told his Admiral, "This might be your fleet, but this is my ship."
I can't believe that controller was snappy about it. He's responsible for the airspace, but the pilot is responsible for the souls onboard. I'd rather have a pilot exercise careful judgement and be safe than risk it for some ATC to get a biscuit. Thoughts?
Agree
Obviously depends on the biscuit 😉
It's important that there be agreement. The controller minimums should be what pilots are practicing and training for. Seeing disagreements like this means there's a breakdown in communication somewhere.
That’s not “Snappy”. It’s NYC and actually very polite …😂
Absolutely, in the moment, if you're uncomfortable with the situation, don't do it. ALSO, if the pilot isn't comfortable with Kennedy-level traffic, then he either needs to get more comfortable somehow or stop going there. But that's a "think about later" problem. The best thing the pilot did there was decline to pick up the argument bait on air.
As a side note, they need to have auxiliary lights that indicate when a plane has left the surface on take off at night as a better means of discerning their status for the incoming planes.
If you're not on the plane, you shouldn't have the final decision. I completely agree with the pilots choice. If it's tight don't even risk it
Delta did the right thing. As a twenty five year flight attendant, I know being a responsible pilot weighs heavily on the decisions they make.
Thank you for always educating the public. Most passengers that fly have little knowledge of how things safely operate.
Flight attendant here too. They think it's like getting on a Greyhound bus. Not quite.😂
I had a reporter from a famous TV news magazine onboard looking for a story. He had questions about overwater equipment, blah, blah, wanted to talk to a pilot (who both said no😂). I told him "The media is always doing negative stories on the airlines, you're either trying to scare or piss off our passengers. How about a positive story? How about explaining the miracle of flight---go over the whole routine of getting a flight off, beginning to end, showing the coordinated effort of the many, many people it takes to make it happen. It's amazing, it's *not* like getting on a bus." He said "Hey, that's a great idea." Still waiting to see it.😂
@maggieb4736 Well said, as far as I know, crew members are supposed to avoid providing the media with any information like that. Next thing you know, it will all be held against us, and we will be the ones to lose our jobs.
@@karinhirtenstein3765 , the pilots simply said "tell him to take it up with the FAA, their rules." They wanted no part of that guy. I knew I was spitting into the wind when I suggested a positive story.
and what pilots want is free snacks.
more seriously, sounded like the controller was thinking best case, and the pilot was thinking worst case. I know which one I'd rather have making the decisions, if something goes wrong.
Exactly
As both, a retired FAA ATC... AND a corporate Charter pilot (ATP).... I TOTALLY agree with Delta.... this was TOO close for SAFTY... Great call Delta captain!!
Have to agree that a confident pilot makes passengers calm. I was a passenger recently and the pilot in his pre-flight announcement sounded very chill but confident, and he did the English announcement perfectly, and I mean there were no "uuuuuugh" or "ummm". I teach military English to Air Force and army, so I know that this is rare, but somehow knowing my pilot is good at his job, and knowing that ATC talks to you in English, gave me the confidence that if something went wrong, he'd be well capable to deal with it.