Has Britain Lost Its Marbles? Explosive Diplomatic Row Over Elgin Marbles / Greek Parthenon Marbles
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- Опубліковано 2 гру 2023
- Diplomatic tensions between Britain and Greece are running high after British Prime Minister Rishi Sunak cancelled a meeting with the Greek Prime Minister after the Greek PM raised the issue of the Elgin Marbles. The Greek media have savagely attacked Rishi Sunak and his statement that Britain would not return the artefacts.
Appearing on GB News, historian and broadcaster Rafe Heydel-Mankoo debated whether Britain should return the Elgin Marbles (a.k.a. Parthenon Marbles) to Greece.
Rafe really loves Britain. He should be PM.
Putin loves her more. Putin should be King !
Yay, Rafe for PM. He certainly would not put up with any nonsense. :)
or the next Mayor of London!
He's brilliant! I'm from Manchester so what but this guy isn't wrong in his love for our nation.
hes got my vote
Typically she asks Raif not to interrupt and then immediately interrupts him all the time. Hysterical woman.
imagine living with her...tortuous.
She is showing herself up
Objective fact, but I don't think this hysteria is characteristic of women in general. Rather, it is characteristic of ideologues in general, male or female, left-wing or right-wing. I recently watched the Republican presidential candidates debate and Ron DeSantis behaved in exactly this hysterical way, constantly interrupting and talking over others, constantly repeating his few dim-witted arguments. Embarrassingly, the audience was equally dim-witted and loved him.
in fact...hyprocy at the worst
low education minge
If they weren't"stolen" they would be a foundation stone for a house by now
I was about to say exactly that. I was in Athens last week and I was told by all the guides, that over the years, the Greeks had all nicked bits of the marble and used them to build other buildings.
Rafe should run the country, a true gent with common sense and bundles of british pride! Vote Reform uk 🇬🇧
"I did not interrupt you" And then 30 seconds later she shouts him into silence.
She is a poor academic, very common in modern academia. She was losing and suddenly went back 2 and half millenia. She gave straw argument and straw argument.
After Rafe mentioned the Benin Bronzes, he should have reminded them that Berlin did return the Bronzes now they are missing.
She is a quota hire.
The marbles were SAVED FROM DESTRUCTION by Elgin. If anyone has been to the Parthenon and other ruins in Greece they can clearly see that successive Greek govts DID NOT GIVE A SHIT about them or any other ruins until about 1975 when tourism made them popular. Elgin saved the marbles 150 years earlier. The parts of the marble frieze that were left behind are damaged beyond repair - acid rain, pollution and general abuse has made them almost unrecognisable.
Was it a bit shady how he did it? Yes, but do they still exist because of it? ABSOF'ING LUTELY YES. 100% They would be ruined unrecognisable lumps of rock, just like the rest of them, if he hadn't - and it's pretty much the same story the world over, all the stuff we have in our Museums WERE SAVED FROM WAR, LOOTING, CRIMINAL DAMAGE AND 200 YEARS OR MORE OF ACIDIC RAIN, which has the very bad habit of DISSOLVING MARBLE.
I agree. What’s your take on whether we should give the artefacts to Greece, now a modern, functioning state? They seem to care more about their history than back then. And they may be able to look after the artefacts equally as well.
Saving and protecting World heritage is not imperialistic... See what the Taliban did to their unprotected World heritage in their own country...
A perfect example of how not to hold a debate. It was the job of the presenters to moderate , but they sat there and did nothing , because GB News prefers heated argument and chaos .I feel for Rafe Heydel-Mankoo - he has to put up with this frequently
It's Peter Andre...hardly an intellectual.
These two are dopes.
Yes I agree this debate turned into a shambles where the viewer learned nothing at all mostly because Rafe opponent keeps butting in out of turn ( typical leftie trick ) the anchor team should have held her in check. Shame.
@@SimonLloydGuitar I thought it looked like him , but he's notoriously thick , surely ......oh
@@garypautard1069 I wouldn't put it down to being 'leftie' though , she's just not used to having her convictions questioned
This woman is on the defense right from the start , she does not know how to discuss calmly
Peter Andre has refused to sing again until the marbles are returned , ..... sounds like we are keeping them, double victory !! 😂😂
🤣🤣🤣🤣💟it.
Hooray 🙌🏻 lol
😂😂😂
Lol! 🤣😂🤣
😂😂😂😂
The Elgin Marbles were acquired through a legitimate and well-researched process by the British government. Extensive investigations were conducted to ensure that there were no unethical or deceitful practices involved in their purchase. Therefore, Buxton's insistence on the return of the Elgin Marbles to Greece is completely baseless. It seems that Buxton is just one among a growing number of individuals who seize every opportunity to criticize and undermine Britain. Personally, I am growing tired of people like Buxton, who seem to harbor such animosity towards Britain. If she despises Britain so much, perhaps she should consider relocating to Greece.
We've plenty like this in the States, they whinge nonstop about what a horrible country the USA is yet they never bugger off back to wherever they came from.
Who's bothered we are being invaded.
Rafe is brilliant as a debater…good luck to anyone who tries to oppose him!!
Είναι κι ευγενής;αν διακόπτεις και φωνάζεις δεν σημαίνει ότι είσαι καλός στην συζήτηση η ότι έχεις δίκιο.καληνυχτα
@@user-kc7je5lx1g
He keeps regurgitating the same talking points. I enjoy watching right-wing media from all over the world it give a sense of what they are about. So far, they all have the same script.
@@renierlouw6032that doesn't really refute Rafe's argument though.... its a simple fact that the British museum has preserved many things of the ancient world and without it the British museum these things would be totally lost to time....
@@MyName-cw4yr Whatever makes you sleep at night
I can listen to Rafe all day, Love the bloke!
What is it is with news tv channels policy now get the nosiest woman you can get to argue the point. The British museum does not charge entry fees but the acropolis museum charges £25 entry fee
Shame poor Ellie, she shouldn’t even be on GBNews! She is delightful but needs to be on a celebrity/ showbiz channel, not an adult platform
I find that when you act hysterical and keep shouting over people then you are probably wrong
I remember seeing them years ago and being amazed by the detail in them considering their age.
I thought the whole idea of museum's was to display other cultures artifacts so we could all learn
And her version of history is incorrect
It is. But some can’t comprehend that concept.
She really can’t go 5 seconds without interrupting. Truly a sign of a desperate person
I agree. Every thing and person should return to exactly where they came from.
Just listen to Rafe. Chaos ensues otherwise. The woman speaks as if a neighbor stole her doll. This is enlightening only in the sense that Rafe is seen as knowledgeable and wise.
Rafe is wrong on a few things, and he misses the main point.
I am a Greek myself, so let me explain.
1. Ancient Greece and modern Greece is the same country. We have the same language.
2. The marbles were doing just fine for 2350years before Elgin cut them off their place and brought them to Britain.
3. The main idea for the return of the marbles is the completion of the work of art. It is easier to fly the marbles to Athens than to fly the Parthenon to the British museum.
Having said all that, the marbles are not going to be returned, and the whole discussion generates a lot of money for both UK and Greece.
She has to shout over someone all the time
She’s a woman, it’s their debating staple. Got no fact only emotion, scream louder.
If some of these treasures of the ancient world did not end up in some of these great museums we would not be talking about them now, lost forever.
Howard Carter made a rather minor Pharoah named Tutenkhamen an international celebrity.
That woman would give a deaf man earache...
She did not like his answer so she interrupted and cancelled his chance to respond because she did not like it. I love that he spoke up for himself.
Elgin shipped the Marbles to the UK 1802-1812 over a 10 year period. Difficult to believe that the local and central Ottoman government didn't know about it. There were no complaints raised at the time or in 1816 when they were sold to the British Museum. The Elgin Marbles were acquired by consent of the Ottoman authorities. By 1816 Athens had been part of the Ottoman Empire for 358 years ever since 1458, so many would say that they were the legitimate government at the time.
"His actions were thoroughly investigated by a Parliamentary Select Committee in 1816 and found to be entirely legal, prior to the sculptures entering the collection of the British Museum by Act of Parliament," source: British Museum.
There is no deed of sale to Elgin. Elgin bribed a local Ottoman official who gave zero f@cks about the enslaved Greeks' stuff anyway to turn a blind eye. The Britosh museum itself will tell you there is no deed of sale to Elgin. Just as if someone bribing a British museum's official to take the Parthenon marbles wouldn't be called theft 😂😂😂 Nice standars mats. And besides, it is a moot point how Elgin stole it and how many were his accomplices in this. Elgin's butchery of the Parthenon with sledgehammers was the worst defacement and destruction quite possibly any monument has ever endured by human hands. And quite intentional at that which makes it barbaric. The civilised world today agrees that monuments must not be dismantled moved or defaced and they must be preserved as a whole. It has been so since 1964 when the Venice charter was signed and the UK is a signatory as well. So the UK is well aware of what is right and what is not, it's not even up for debate regardless of circustances, just like e.g. slavery is not up for debate. Arguing in favourof keeping it is the same as someone keeping a chained slave saying, "I didn't enslave Uncle Tom here, I inherited him from my dad, my dad got him from someone else all above board 😂 I know slavery is wrong, but what can we do know, I have uncle Tom here now. And I m keeping him. 😂😂😂
@@xenofonkarykis8417 Why are you talking about a deed of sale, are you honestly unaware of the 'fermen' which granted Elgin permissions by the Ottoman authorities. If it could be proven that they were stolen I'm sure the Greek government would've taken the matter to court. This case was taken before the European Court of Human Rights who threw it out because they didn't have the jurisdiction to rule on it; and there were no laws or international agreements in 1812 affecting the acquisition.
The 1964 Venice Charter is a set of guidelines to conserve and make restorations to monuments and sites by a group of conservation professionals, it's basically irrelevant here and doesn't change the status of the Elgin Marbles, which have been in the UK for over 200 years.
@@andrewwilliams3137 You mean the non existent firman? Or do you not know that the document that Elgin produced is an Italian translated copy of some alleged document he... "lost" 🤣
@@xenofonkarykis8417 The claim advanced by David Rudenstine, that the ferman may never have existed, and that the surviving Italian version may have been a forgery is simply not credible. To create the complex trail of references to the ferman which can be found running through a range of letters and other statements produced by various people, the most fantastic powers of organised deception would have been required. William St Clair, who first brought to light the contemporaneous Italian translation of the document, has dismissed Rudenstine’s claim as follows: ‘the Italian version of the firman is documented in detail in the historical record and its authenticity as an official Ottoman document, its provenance, and its pedigree are all secure. That it is genuine is further confirmed by the fact that it is written on paper from a mill in the Veneto known to have been used by the Ottoman Porte.’.
Read the 2023 Pamphlet. The Elgin Marbles. By Sir Noel Malcolm.
@@xenofonkarykis8417 do you really think that the Ottoman Empire would let someone steal the marbles from them and let them walk away with no retribution? not a chance
That woman is irrataing.
She's like nails on a chalk board
Rafe is brilliant.
Ego dominates her argument, NOT FACTS
When ego goes up against intelligence.
The amount of Greek sculptures that have been lost is ridiculous, and it would triple that if they weren’t taken out of Greece which was constantly being invaded and warring😂
She chastises Rafe for interrupting her, then doesn't let him get a word in edgeways.
That’s how women debate.
The modern Greek state has no claim to Ancient Greece
Her intellect is not on the same level as Rafe’s
She belongs in kindergarten
You can usually tell which one has the weaker argument because they interrupt and shout
I wish people would let others have their say. It’s so annoying when you’re trying to learn something new only to have presenters talking over each other.
@@user-kb2in7qb6z agreed. The trouble is that when a debate descends into a shouting match it turns off the viewers, and the opportunity for a general advancement of understanding on a topic is lost.
Why is when people are losing a debate thay just shout and interrupt you.
Because they believe they should have the last word.
Why are some British people so anti British
gosh another painful "debate" poorly hosted but I'm sure manifestly designed in that manner to produce a divisive painful rant vs an Informed position. Well done, Rafe.
Just what state would they be in if they’d been left.
Oh she's learned a little bit of Greek and now she's an expert on Greece and its history even though the man sitting next to her is Greek and that actually knows all about the history let's just ignore the man and listen to the woman who's giving analogies that are so crazy it's childlike
Well said Rafe ,very loud woman ,no content. Started a debate about cutting up the Eifel tower .!!!!
Of all the things going on in this country a lump of marble is the least of its worries
Absolutely
they are not a lump of marble.
They are the Mona Lisa of sculpture. Ask people who know and learn.
@@efstratiosanagnostopoulos6636 so one is a slab of stone the other is a drawing. Yo when my country is getting back half of Europe back? We had it just about 1000 years ago. It was stolen from us!
@@szysi3k The marbles are not being requested back. The marbles have to be united so as to complete the work of art.
An alternative would be to bring the Parthenon to Britain. But as this is very difficult, the marbles can easily be moved. Elgin did it on his own many years ago.
Thank you rafe, we need you to stick up for us in ever growing tsunami of wokeness.
You need to stand up too. Most people agree this stuff is bullshit. They’re just too chicken shit and are worried people will call them racist. Let people call you racist. Let people be wrong. Fuckem.
Ngl if Britian has to give the marbles back Greece needs to be given back to Turkey same logic
Give what back to Turkey?
@@user-dd1ud1tu2r Turkish ceramics, textiles, calligraphy, metalwork, jewellery, etc. Anatolian (modern-day Turkey) artefacts from several ancient cultures, such as the Hittite civilisation. Not to mention the huge amount of Byzantine and post-Byzantine artefacts. Pottery, tools, and archaeological finds. Check out the Benaki Museum, the National Archaeological Museum, the Museum of Byzantine Culture, and the Archaeological Museum of Thessaloniki. And this is just Turkey. Do I need to mention Egypt? China? North Africa and other parts of the Middle East? Cyprus? Spain? Italy/Etruria/Rome? pre-Columbia? Russia? Bulgaria? All in Greek museums.
That was a proper ding-dong debate. The hosts just let them get on with it - marvellous! (Btw, I'm somewhat sympathetic to the Greek case, but NOT if it becomes another excuse to denigrate Britain and force us further onto the back foot over our former Empire)
Because they don't have a clue
not a "debate" just Tonia defending a corrupt govt. nothing unusual there.
"please don't interrupt me"
*proceeds to incessantly interrupt him at every single turn*
Rafe Is Right... This Women Got To Go Shut Her Up😡
One of the very few in the public eye who insists on celebrating the good as well as acknowledging the bad concerning the history of Empire.
Rafe is the best, a true gentleman... I agree with him that we shouldn't rewrite history and accept it in order to learn from it. Strong take from the weak and power shifts over time. It's important to embrace the reality of history.
Possession is nine tenths of the law, finders keepers etc.
So the British government paid for them, Greece should really take it up with lord Elgin. If the Greeks have so m
This woman is disgusting, well done Rafe for putting up with these stupid people
😄😆😂😂😂😂😂😂😂👍
A bit harsh and disproportionate. Rafe's pompous attitude ain't much better.
Do you to like to see Rafe as a dominant arrogant person, but yourself (and Mrs. hysteria) as lovely and innocent inferiors?
I never understand why they never mention that elgin did everything himself and it wasn't the British 👍👍 he wanted to open his own museum at his Scottish property elgin house 👍 he only sold them because he got divorced got 70k and lost thousands 👍👍 he bought them of the turks stored them in Cyprus i think for years all at his cost 👍
Making Ancient Greeks and Modern Greeks two different things is wrong?
That's ignorance of the highest order.
"They were stolen" because I say so because it suits my argument!!!!
Greece was actually part of the Ottoman Empire for 400 years. The arrangenents were made with the government that was recognised for 400 years, the legitimate government of the time.
Rome ruled England for 400 years. Would we consider it legitimate to consider everything that happened under the Romans, or the Danelaw, as illegitimate?
This is really not an issue to have a meltdown over. A lot of people in the UK don't even know about these marbles, and it wont affect their lives whatever country the marbles are in.
Controling our borders, stopping illegal immigration is a real issue, that affects everone in the UK, for issues of safety and security and also the millions of taxpayers money spent. This is a real issue affecting everyone in the UK.
I don't care for the marbles. Most people in the UK have never even heard of the marbles.
The UK has a serious problem with illegal immigration. The UK needs to protect and control its borders.
Preserving the History of the Western World is equally vital to the future as Preserving British Heritage, culture and borders are.
We have already seen what happens to Museums around the World and when Artifacts thousands of years old are ‘returned” to their native lands: they are stolen from substandard facilities, bought for pittance by warlords and moguls or outright destroyed by extremists in their own country…
No, we have a Duty to future generations to Preserve the History of the Human Race, before it becomes lost to time and worse, Rewritten…
Part of getting the country back on its feet is not getting pushed around over irrelevant issues. If we can't stand our ground as the legal owners of the marbles, how on earth can we defend our borders and be taken seriously? its the same government handling both issues
Lord Elgin did nothing illegal - we need to shout this from the rooftops. He followed the laws that were in place at the time. The British Museum’s ownership is not in the least bit dodgy at any level.
So presumably the nazis did nothing wrong then when they looted the countries that surrendered after they invaded then?
The laws of THAT time allowed Slavery. There is no need to act Today as the people of 1800 acted. What Elgin did at THAT time maybe wrong or right. People had different sense of what morals, of "right thing to do" then. What the British gov, has done AFTER 1950 is definitely wrong. Elgin may have saved antiquities from the ignorant brutes Ottoman Turks. But the discussion now is between two equally civilized, equally peaceful and organised countries, that have been friends and Allied countries (for the last 100 years fighting on the same side of history).
@@zBijsRespectfully, we are not talking about slavery. Greece needs to view the issue in the wider context of the opening of floodgates (for all established museums anywhere in the world). “We are where we are.” Equally, it is nobody’s cultural interest for the National Gallery in London (say) just to hang paintings by Constable, Turner and Gainsborough with crate loads of paintings being shipped back to the homeland of their creator.
Its true that Grecians were not capable of preserving the marbles when they were discovered. Still there was much skullduggery! These presenters deserve more opportunities for public debate - to educate one and all 😊
do you understand what you said?
I WILL NOT LISTEN TO PPL WHO RUDELY INTERRUPT, IF SHE DOES IT ONCE MORE I'm switching off.
I did!
The ottomans was a regime and they hay had no right to sell them. They didn’t even sold them, they gave permission to draw them not take them out
Rafe is a true British bloke 😊 make him PM 😅😅😅.top man rafe...
Typical British thinking: occupy Gibraltar and the run referendum for britons to approve it.
She has been reading the wrong books if she considers herself a classical scholar. She needs to use her ears more than her big mouth. Her histrionics are most undignified.
People who say,'Please dont interrupt me, i didn't interrupt you'
ALWAYS interrupt EVERYONE and ALL of the time
She started to get hysterical and personal....that's when and where she lost the debate.Somebody's told her a load of nonsense and if they watched the debate would be having a right good laugh.
The British Saved the Marbles!
Let's ask the Islamic PM of the UK what he thinks!
Yeah, the World has lost its "Marbles"
He's a Hindu.
.....sunak isnt even muslim 😂, hes hindu but alright
Why does Tonia Buxton insist in the fashionable accusation of "stolen"? It's unappropriate. The sellers and buyers from the antiquities basars of the 19th century would have never applied such severe standard to this business and wouldn't today - not to speak of the highly appreciated grave robbers (who produce the sexiest finds). And also: Would you speak of "stealing" or "theft" when a child is rescued away from drunk parents by a youth welfare institution? (that is NOT to say, that the Europeans just always sacrificed themselves for the wellbeing/well preserving of the artefacts, but it is a small factor that has a role)
Should the Greeks compensate their neighbors for Alexander the Great's conquests? Seems to me he had a bit of an imperialist attitude as well. Silly woman.
most patient man in Briton
She keeps shouting "Imperialist" and fails to explain how exactly it is Imperialist. She calls the government arrogant yet she is the one making demands. The legal owner of the marbles can do as they wish. She can try to dispute the legality of their ownership but enquiries have been made and the matter has long since been settled, regardless of her complaints.
Modern Greece was a creation of Lord Byron and other British and German romantics of the time.
It is really hard to want to listen to her when she acts like a hysterical child, that throws tantrums and interupts.
If the British saved the Marbles, why are there still tons of them around in Athens and all over Greece?
An artillery round hit the Pantheon leaving it partially destroyed. The explosion collapsed the marble roof and the inner chambers walls were left mostly rubble. From what google says, it is accepted that if Britain didn't take them, they would have been severally damaged or destroyed.
When people have been wronged throughout history. Its only because them next to you beat you to doing the wrong doing.. 🙄
Rafe well said. that Tonia don't speak for all brits, only her lefty crew! how dear she say she speaks for the whole of brits
The late Prince Philip, was Prince Philip of Greece. Maybe they should send his body to Greece as well?
Not been to Athens, but I've been to Cairo and visited many of the museums and historical sites. I can say with absolute certainty that these artefacts are better off in The British Museum. They way the treat these things is genuinely shocking!
Greece is not as safe a country as England for one thing.
😂😂😂
The Arabs are always being credited with rediscovering the ancients which gave rise to the European Renaissance but the French and British discovery of ancient civilisations - the Egyptians is considered 'plundering.'
We should give them back as a gift and move on
There is no documentation even in Turkish archives that Elgin had any permission or permits to do what he did.
It´s wrong wanting to compare modern greeks who are strongly into chrstianity to the old greeks with their multiple gods, how does that make sense?
Lord Elgin had permission from legal authorities in Athens and London to transport them.
Archaeologist told me that Britain bought them
I guess she forgot how Islam treated Buddhist Statutes once they were dominant ?
This guy schooled her to death.
The British Museum has saved many historical artifacts for all of the people of the world to treasure - they should keep them and not return them. That woman is an embarrassment.
Lol yawn...but only the British should give back their spoils of conquest eh?...because Istanbul was never Constantinople, etc etc ad infinitum
Ottomans expanded their empire and were rulling greek territories as their own for 400 years and even before that it was the Byzantine empire which isn't entirely greek either...
Its pretty stupid to compare wartime occupation of France of a few years, to long lasting empires owning the territory for centuries...
Just rent them from Greece, pay a % of income.😂❤
Old adage, go the spoils to the victor. This has been an unwritten law since the dawn of man.
We stole them fair and square
However they were gained, they should be returned. They don't belong to us although they should be on view to the world.
They should be given back to Greece.
I'm selling off Buckingham palace, any buyer? Don't worry once you've bought it they can't claim it back as it's not stolen, just sold.
Another over emotional woman with no facts
Thank you, Rafe, for standing up for us! So sick of all the pathetic kowtowing and ignorance, Brits should be proud of our history.
What history? When Parthenon was built you were monkeys in the trees
😂
@@leontiosphilotheou8624 Britain was advancing the Industrial Revolution when Greece was still an agrarian society.
Britain advanced a strong Navy and railways. Greece???
fact, I love England but back then the Roman historians used to write: do not sell british slaves to athens, they are so barbaric and uneducated that they cannot be seen in athenian houses, (the romans tellingly compare with the athenian houses, Not the roman houses).
There are videos on the marbles subject on youtube with much more educated british commenters, most of which of cource know that they are totally stolen.
@@leontiosphilotheou8624 Awww, did I hurt your feelings? Greece hasn’t done anything important for thousands of years, its best days are long over. Today, it’s so overrun with Arab and African migrants, it won’t be Greek for much longer anyway 🤷♂️