That was how they left Earth, SG-1 gave them the coordinates to the Nox and the Tollans sent an FTL distress beacon so they definitely knew the coordinates to the Nox plus they communicated with the Nox for the trial so they had diplomatic relations with the Nox. However, the Nox are pacifists who believe in non-intervention so there's no indication that they would take on refugees..
Except that they kind of did. They were at least settled on two or three words with all of them having a rough head count of their survivors. Thats a first step to rebuilding.
Hi, arrogance will not top survival. There would always be off shoots and groups in other enlightened races. As long as a core remains they can repopulate. Indeed their exploration may have been for this very point. Secret plans may have existed to survive this or another natural catastrophe. It may take time but they would recover. Take care M.
If there is one thing that bothered me about writing in Stargate is that civilizations are primarily shown to be in one place. Like civilizations having like 3 cities in an area the size of Arizona being an advanced civilization. As for the Tollan, I could see them having built colonies using ships like the Aschen and being on these planets in relatively small numbers. So maybe 3/4 of the population at the lowest living on Tollana and the remaining quarter being scattered over a few worlds without stargates on them. It was also mentioned than Tollan hyperdrives were relatively slow. Omak mentions it would have taken a Tollan ship more than a lifetime to get from Tollana to Earth. So, even if these small colonies had ships, we have no idea if they could get anywhere quickly. We don’t know how the gate network is distributed. For all we know it’s not distributed around the galaxy evenly and the Tollan might exist in a part of the galaxy where stargates are few and far between. So maybe sending a ship to a planet with a know gate that isn’t Tollan might be out of the question for them. So we don’t see them because there remaining colonies are small, lack stargates and their ships can’t get to one in a reasonable amount of time? Given these limitations, keeping ships closer to home would be a smarter idea than trying to establish contact with Earth.
That’s a really good explanation, and I really like the idea that the Stargates are not evenly distributed across the galaxy. The only issue with it I see is that later seasons introduced faster FTL. I think this change really hit the Tollan hard because they’re supposedly one of the most advanced groups, yet their FTL is laughable compared to what we see later.
@@sg-24I always figured that had something to do with Anubis. He upgraded his ships shields, it would make sense he’d do the same with hyperdrives. The main way that it’s shown you can increase speed is to pump more power into the drive, so maybe the other System Lords did that to keep up with better technology? The Asgard hyperdrives were already crazy fast, it was always the Goa’uld and other human groups that had slow drives. Also, Anubis did probe Thor’s mind. He might have gotten the tech from him. And if the Tok’ra can infiltrate the system lords, they probably spy on each other.
there could be survivors especially if they had small outposts which was not found or one made it to a planet abandoned by the Goa'Uld long ago, now this one lives as the weird hermit
Tollan hyperdrives might have been slow compared to the Goa'uld version but they still had FTL communications. I can imagine scattered survivors asking the Nox for refuge. And even under Anubis there's no indication that the Goa'uld were ever a threat to the Nox homeworld.
I imagine there were survivors. Some would have hidden. Some would have escaped but some would have faced a worse fate. When I was a leader of a SG1 based RPG, I was planning a Gou’ald whose host was Tolan and used some of their technology to maintain a position of power.
Ah but remember under Tollan law both parties have a right to the body. I’m kidding, but wow I never really thought about it much since in the show we don’t see this often. Prisoners being taken as host, trapped inside their own body as it’s used to commit horrors.
@sg-24 not to mention implantation as interrogation. We know from the events of Mobius that putting a Goa'uld in a prisoner's head in order to extract information is not unheard of, and considering that to the Tollan stuff like Quantum physics is considered an "elementary science", goodness knows what absurd techniques even a more mundane citizen might have comprehensive knowledge of, let alone an actual expert in a given field. Though I suppose since it was Anubis who wiped them out, he likely wouldn't have let that happen. It would be giving an underling access to knowledge and technology that rivaled his own, and he wouldn't like that at all.
@@RipOffProductionsLLC maybe it was a goa uld minor lord who screwed up and anubis was "displeased" and he tries to save his own skin but gets discovered by the sg team because he or she was too nice to the tau'ri for being a real tollan, have him ally with the tau'ri because anubis was "displeased" and these tau'ri are his only hope for survival.
One thing you didn't mention is that Anubis probably went and conquered the colonies after taking out the homeworld. Still probably some did survive, but not enough to make a difference.
I did think about that, but I have a really good reason as to why I didn’t bring it up. The books never said it happened. Don’t get me wrong I agree that Anubis, or any Goa’uld would have gone after them, but the implication seems to be they were left alone. Maybe it was some Prothean thing were they delete them from the archives in order to protect them?
@@sg-24 Anubis does have the technology to read minds, so any prisoners could reveal the locations. Plus you did bring up that he was actively trying to capture Tollans on the homeworld, so the chance of a colony existing would be very tempting
@@Katthewm Anubis tech didn't read their minds, it was an implant that would scan their entire minds and extract that data or in thor's case, his entire mind was downloaded, so i suspect Anubis likely tried to capture these people and extract everything he could from them to advance his own position of power.
Lol maybe the colony's adopted a nox like isolation. When anyone suggest helping/interacting with the galaxy at large they point at tolana and go "see what happens when u talk to strangers"
I really love the idea of them surviving in some state, but i feel that we may have missed the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY to explore that. Maybe the survivors went off and stayed off the grid with the Nox, only re-emergeling after the Ori defeat when a kinder galaxy allows for a safer rebuilding. Or maybe Maybourne is running their world now too. Lol
To quote Vigil from Mass Effect: "The genocide of an entire species is a long, slow process." I think there should be at least a few surviving Tollans. My guess is that they used their advanced technology to hide somewhere in the galaxy, this way they don't need to deal with the Goa'uld, the Replicators, the Ori or any civilization that is less advanced.
I mean, the Tollan were already pretty diminished from the last disaster that fucked up the planet they were living on, and they never gave the indication that they were a particularly prolific people. It might not have taken all THAT long...
when the power of sam carters , black widow feild is so great that it whipes out 90% of an alien race just to get rid of one of her many , many, many love intrests just to get rid of one of said love intrests that managed to survive to the anbius arc. we really should consider romancing her with earths many enemys or other annoyaince races that wont let us touch their cool shit. so the wrath of sam/o'niel shipers may descend upon them like the fury of god.
I'm lucid enough to actually write a thought-out post, so here's what I believe thusfar. I take it that Stargate doesn't generally retcon entire races out of lore for the hell of it, they just have a habit of introducing races that they can't use to make the plot go forwards after a bit and they just have them be wiped out by the big bad guy of the season/seasons. Functionally that actually seems alright, because as cheap as it is, it's a way to close a loop and fill in the narrative pothole. As for if there could be survivors, if they don't outright say that there are no Tollans left, there are Tollan survivors. And if their colonies are still around and its not explicitly mentioned that there colonies were hit after the fact, it's likely that the Tollans can overtime come to rebuild. But realistically, the Tollans have experienced a fall from grace so terrible that they're never going to be able to return to that apex of strength. And it is entirely their fault that they experienced that fall. They didn't take their enemies seriously enough to effectively defend against them, and then they actually let their genocidal enemies wander freely around their homeworld to find the batteries of ion cannons they use to defend against them, and mark them with beacons for precision strikes. Even primitive societies defend valuable infrastructure and the defensive weaponry that ensures they'll carry on surviving as a society. Armories receive guards for these reasons especially. The Tollans do not understand the Technologically the Tollans are probably not going to stagnate too badly after this, or lose that technology. They may not have the means to replicate it for quite some time, as losing the homeworld ensures that quite a lot of valuable infrastructure that was necessary for supporting those colonies is now gone or otherwise inoperative. But they will have the knowledge at least to do so, and with that knowledge they can both trade for aid, and as well, replicate the technology overtime to reach their colonies, and to perhaps build their own stargates. And as well, with it, they'll hopefully not end up making all the same mistakes they did before. There's a chance that the Tollans will take a turn and become something more than arrogant pacifist hippies with a chip on their shoulder - in all likelihood really, they'll probably begin to build warships and start to work on rebuilding what they lost. Maybe even at some point retake Tollana if they reach a point where such a thing ends up palletable and doable. But that's an if, a big one. The Tollans can rebuild their society, they still have the colonies and the ships. But they're never going to return to that arrogant apex of power they enjoyed, and then lost because they couldn't recognize what others could plainly see - they were their own worst enemy.
I like and agree with everything you said. The one thing is Stargate… well they don’t retcon races out of the plot, it’s more like they just ignore them. They may get lucky and their tech or biology may come up again. But for the most part they are just ignored after one or two episodes.
@@sg-24 I suppose that retcon is a poor choice of word. That's as well true. After all, we never figured out what happened to the Gadmeer but they're presumably extant given the ship did make it back to terraform the planet.
The Tok'ra would not have accepted Tolan technology. They went into it when they first met SG1. The Tok'ra explained that their effectiveness is from fitting in. Using foreign technology would have given them away to the Goa'uld.
@@sg-24I remember that scene basically in the field the Tok'ra basically only use Gould tech or things that are so stealthy and do useful that it is worth the risk at least for that mission (and I get the impression that most of that tech is stuff other Gould use in assassination and spy craft but that is speculation) on the other hand Tok'ra do have unique tech they use in their bases but all of it needs to be highly portable usable deep under ground and not obvious on Ghould long range sensors least when on standby and preferably when in use, also they need to not leave a long lasting signature.
While this is true, some of the things would have been acceptable, such as making the scanners and other weapons more effective. The look would be the same, just more powerful.
Falling to simple deception. Having only one way to defend themselves? And having it in the open for anyone to see/analyze. No backup defenses when knowing there are enemies around? Can build gates and not having several in key positions to escape? So advanced. 0 foresight.
I am reminded of a scene from Firefly... Jayne, Zoey and Mal are in Badgers den of thieves... Jayne makes a comment about being stuck up...and then some one says Pretentious. And Jayne replies..yeah...you think you're better than everyone else. Or something along those lines. This reminds me of the Tolan.
It strikes me that the Tolen from Stargate are much like the TNG-era Federation from Star Trek: 1) They have a very strict non-intervention policy 2) They are very confident in their own moral superiority. Arrogant, even. 3) They do legitimately mean well, and they do have a legitimate reason for their policies 4) They wear rather silly-looking late-1980s-style clothes, as per TNG 5) They're all atheists, as explicitly stated in their first appearance 6) They don't *appear* to use any form of money (Though this never really comes up) 7) They have a significant technological superiority over most of the other species they come across. 8) They're basically peaceful, only fight if attacked, no death penalty, that sort of thing. 9) kind of naive. the hook for their first appearance is basically "what's it like for the people who suffer because the Federation won't intervene?" I specify 'The TNG Era' (TNG-through-voyager) because in the original Trek, 'noninterference' was obviously much more of a sliding scale, and Kirk and Co repeatedly choose to err on the side of compassion rather than law. And there seem to have been no repercussions from this. Whereas in TNG, it's taken far more humorlessly and (IMO) inhumanely. In the episode "Pretense," Teal'c observes that the Tolen are naive. They haven't fought a war in such a long time that they don't really think strategically, they are relatively easily manipulated by bad actors, and ultimately that's their undoing. I dunno. Just a passing thought. It's interesting because SG1 - and the Gate-iverse as a whole - has no such compunctions about noninterference. They do discuss it early on, and there is a lot of discussion as to whether or not earth/the USAF has the right to do some of the stuff they do, and on occasion first contact situations do go very, very very badly (Such as anything concerning the planet Tegalus, where they accidentally started a civil war, religious fanatics overthrowing the government, and ultimately a nuclear war), so the show doesn't gloss over the issue. And, in some situations, they advise uncontacted aliens on how to isolate themselves from unwanted contact.
Glad you’re enjoying the videos. Also true, but the Asgard never corrected him if he was wrong I have to assume they would. It’s also possible he was being metaphorical given what the other sources said.
@@sg-24 At that point in time, there was no way for either the SGC or the Asgard to know one way or another. All evidence that the SGC said at that point, pointed to them being wiped out. The Asgard were too busy trying to be not wiped out by the Replicators. There is no reason why the SGC would think otherwise, and they didn't exactly have the resources to go check on them at that point in time. In the future perhaps, but we as a viewer would never have any reason to know because it was never central to the plot. There would have been survivors.
This is personal, but I don't necessarily mind the colonies concept. While they would have some infrastructure, a colony typically doesn't have the means to process and refine the materials needed to rebuild without intense investment and time. So while this wasn't perfect, it wouldn't have necessarily been too insane.
Well, they survived if and only if they write a new story/episode showing their survivors. But it is true that the existing story allows to have such survivors, without inconsistencies. They don’t need to make timetravel or parallel universe story to make some events un-happen, they just need to find a colony which survived.
My head canon was that there might have been survivors but very very small amount (talking 100's at the most) and in all practical purposes they were wiped out
There were Tollan colonies mentioned, other planets if I recall. Now these may be tiny, hundreds of people maybe or thousands max. But still, they have people off of the main world so there are survivors, just not enough to make it matter.
And one of the comments I saw in a behind the scenes interview about the Tollan was that while possibly others survived, Narim was one of them… and he was now host of Klorel, whos symbiote never left Tollana. Imagine them apples!
Hello there, I like this kind of video. I may not be very experienced with the Stargate franchise but I like hearing about in this format and approach nevertheless. May I present a scenario to you that could spark into a interesting scenario video? Could a united Starcraft coalition of the Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans defeat a infestation of the Flood that has reached the Gravemind stage of development and if they are able to beat them back and or contain the outbreak what would the aftermaths be? How would some Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans react to the information and secrets they have on the Flood and would they react to some of their kind being mentally tormented by the logic plauge and secrets they could not comprehend? Especially since the Zerg is like a Hivemind would the logic plauge even in a early form affect many of their numbers with insanity for years to come and the trauma it would cause? Circumstances. A fleet of Terrans and a branch of Zerg that have gone rouge from the Zerg hierarchy find a Forerunner shield world the size of a planet which is a research installation with a database dedicated to studying the Flood with security forces run by a Monitor with a small fleet of a few hundred ships as a final failsafe should the Flood completely breakout of the facility however the local Flood outbreak on the installation was able to form a small Gravemind which was smart enough to evade incineration and significantly reduce some of these security defenses including preventing the activation of the Forerunner fleet. A group of Protoss having a disturbing institution they sense will eventually arrive to the shield world as well. The Terrans and rouge Zerg who been fighting each other and the Forerunner security sentinels accidentally break the containment zone of the Flood and the Flood begin spreading out with Pure Forms overwhelming some of the isolated and unprepared Zerg and Terran forces. Gathering their knowledge to the Gravemind as well as understanding where they come from their current mindset and weaponry. The scouting Protoss group arrive to the scene seeing the Flood for the first time and seeing infected Terrans and Zerg mutate into such rotten abomninaitions disturbs them extremely and try to aid the Sentinels, Terrans, and Zerg in trying to exterminate the present Flood threat however shortly after the Flood are able to take many airborn and space flying craft and land boarding parties on some of their ships. A couple ships are taken and escape off world heading for deep space. The Monitor immediately contacts all parties Terran, Zerg, and Protoss forces to inform them of the danger at once and instructs them to clear the Flood infestation stopping his security protocols from being enacted and that the entire galaxy is in danger and the escaping Flood need to be exterminated. Could they stop the Flood in time before it becomes uncontrollable with the help of the small Forerunner fleet?
This an interesting idea, and I do a lot of Halo and fair about StarCraft. I have considered moving into other franchises someday, and I would consider tackling this one, but as to when I would get to it I can’t say.
@@sg-24 I understand and that is pretty good reason. Such interesting topics takes time to consider and make with fine quality and good standard. This could take place some yesrs after the three way truce between the factions. On the scenario I think the Zerg would be the worse greatly affected the most despite their incredible reactive adaption capabilities against poisonous substances and gases being faster and more efficient then even the adaption of the Tyranids the Flood are far far worse then all the deadly diseases the Zerg have ever encountered and their infestation potency seems nearly absolute as no cure was ever found for the Flood. The Forerunners and Ancient Humans tried desperately but they never found a outright immunity for Flood infection by the Supercell only ways to make it a inconvenience at best. And to make matters worse the Forerunners tried to revive infected subjects by putting their minds into cloned bodies and it failed because the nature of the Flood's infection also infects the spirit somehow and that clone body turned into a Combat Form with the Flood Supercell. If Zerg lose their leaders to Flood infection can you imagine to chaos and confusion it would bring as a consequence? The Zerg can try to create and imploy some protective body armor and defensive acid mechanisms to reduce their drones and bases becoming outright combat forms or biomass for the Flood to feed on but a immunity to the Flood is relatively impossible for them to achieve due to the eldritch reality bending nature of the Flood. Zerg forces will be constantly at risk and have constant liabilities due to how they engage in combat which is something the Flood would be all the more welcoming of. If the Terrans doctors were able to find a cure to Zerg's infestation for their colonists but the Forerunners and Ancient Humanity were unable to for the Flood then the potency of these two's horde kinds methods of infections are astronomically far apart from each other it isn't funny. Not to mention the Flood would outright steal the Zerg's traits for their own purposes. So the Zerg would be a complete liability to the coalition's efforts of exterminating the Flood with these variables in mind. They would just be feeding the Flood biomass and with the Flood's expotential rate of infecting entire planetary centers this is a very scary prospect.
It would be amazing if the surviving colonies had formed a permanent trade and defence agreement with the Tau'ri. Yeah they see them as less advanced but the BC 304s would probably change their mind
The phasing tech was small, hand held, meaning all they would need is to send one bomb with the small device to the power room or even just through the shields of the attacking ship. They had ships too so they had colonies.
Okay weirdly enough I just read a comment about the phase bombs, but it was about them phasing through the planet and blowing it up. Moving on I assume all the bombs were destroyed. But even if they weren’t I can kind of see the Tollan not using them. Edit: okay seeing edited version now. To be honest I don’t have a good reason beyond the Tollan are really bad at military strategy and focused only on evacuation
Sorry I meant to say the hand held devices not the bombs we saw getting blown up. I've edited it to what I meant to say. Like the one Narim uses in their first appearance and triad.
My head cannon on the Tolan. It's that they wouldn't go to humans for help.As we are less technologically advanced, they were, however, being mentored by the Nox, A species who also mysteriously vanished, never to be heard from again, and who was the last species that they have Interacted with? So I believe that when the tolin planet was blown up, they fled to the knox, who then both went into hiding, never to be heard from again
I gotta ask: what, if anything, did the Tollan actually DO in service to the fight against the Goa'uld? I mean, maybe they could have done some off-screen stuff we never heard about, but is there any specific indication in the show that they ever actually did anything particularly useful...?
I can totally accept that any colonies left after Tollana was sacked would lay real low. On the other hand these colonies would be even more tempting target for Anubis and others. Still all it would take is a small number of Tollan with access to their tech, recources and time to get back on their feet BUT having been caught out like that theyd probably go full Genii hiding their entire presense as much as possible and hiding their infrastructure and population even better a bit like the Nox who we know they knew.
I found it weird the Tollan escape ships didn't seem to have their phase shifting tech so Gau'old weapons fire would pass through them. Anubis might have had weapons that could hit them even shifted, but it wasn't established if so.
@@sg-24 maybe. It could also be they just the thought ever occured to them that their ships might be threatened by superior tech ship until it was too late. Maybe Anubis was watching for them retrofitting any ships with that tech to escape.
Fun thing I noticed while eating this, if you look in the background on the right hand side. While everyone else is running around like the world is going to end, there just some guy walking around. I’m sure that’s just a student who got caught in the shot.
They also built their own stargate rather than use a relic left by the Ancients so there is the possibility that they may have a small minigate in a lab as a prototype much as one was built out of toasters, microwaves and whatever could be ordered online in Samantha's basement except perhaps one that won't burn out after a single use. Then there's the possibility of launching spaceships and phasing them so they could not be shot down, the possibility that there was already Tolan's off world and the possibility of just hiding on the planet and going with asymmetric warfare.
I mean, if I were in charge of them, I would have had an emergency plan anyway, but at least once it became clear that the defenses are imperfect, so after the trial. And in case of the Tollan being high-tech Isolationists, I would have looked for a planet without gate or would have removed the gate from a remote barely known planet and set up shop there. I have no doubt the Tollans could build ships if they wanted to. And due to their nature of non-interference the Nox might even be more inclined to help out. I don't think the Nox would have let them onto their own planet. The Nox may be xenophiles but they are also Isolationists in their own right. I could even imagine the Tollans looking for a safe space outside of our Galaxy. We know of 5 Galaxies the Ancients have been to and these are the four we visit in all series. These are the Pegasus, Milky Way, Alteran Home Galaxy / Ori Galaxy, and the SGU-Galaxy in which the ship places new Stargates, and there's also the Asgard Home Galaxy, which at least has one gate in it. Considering the function of the Destiny, I have also no doubt that there could be more Galaxies with a ready-to use Stargate network. Or an at least partially usable. So with Stargates being present, it means these Galaxies are reachable from Tollana. And the Tollans have the means to generate a lot of power, which is necessary. To assume that SGC was the first faction after the Ancients to be able to create a stable connection between two galaxies is kinda weird in context of more advanced factions being around. The Asgard don't use the Gates, unless they have no other option. And we know another thing about the Tollans: They do go for expeditions / They leave their planet for different reasons. Which is how SG1 met them in the first place. So yeah, I think there's a colonies somewhere. Not big ones by any means, but there should be some settlements.
Good video. At absolute minimum, the Tollan had an entire planet to hide on. Doesn't matter how many troops Anubis sent in, I have difficulty believing that he'd ever bag ALL of them. Heck, this kind of situation would just be Tuesday for SG-1 or the Tok'Ra. They referred to their ships being shot down, but a few still might have gotten away. That the Ga'ould shot down the majority, I would attribute to surprise and sheer weight of numbers. Given how how awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) was, I imagine that their ships still had a surprise or two, even when at a severe disadvantage. So, any that chose to "cut and run" would arguably have had a chance. Bitter experience could have led many surviving Tollan, individually OR collectively, to go Full Isolationist. They already had this superiority complex thing, whereby pretty much everybody else in the Galaxy were primitives. Add to that, their deeply ingrained reluctance to share their knowledge, akin to Star Trek's 'Prime Directive'. Then, they get this harsh lesson of just how treacherous and dangerous these 'primitives' can be, and their much-vaunted technology failed to save them. There are still 'primitives' out there who SAY they are friends, but it's no secret that they also want Tollan tech, so can they really be trusted? Easy to picture how at least some Tollan survivors could end up becoming paranoid, even downright xenophobic. Always an annoyance to me that , in most SF franchises, super-advanced races tend to be extreme pacifists. I get why - avoiding easy "outs" for the good guys. Babylon 5 actually came closest to avoiding this - various super-races, and it was not all Black and White. But still .....
I loved this comment for many reasons, the top was that line about awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) 😂. That aside that could be an interesting idea for later. The next big bass being the Tollan survivors who now see the whole galaxy as primates.
@@sg-24 Thank you. Something else that only just occurred to me. Tollan as Ga'ould hosts? Since they are human (or close enough), I'd infer this would be possible. But what I wonder about is what the Tollan might have done to themselves beforehand. Thinking implants, genetic engineering and whatever else the Tollan might routinely do to protect against disease, parasites and the like - both for their own world(s) and elsewhere. That they might have SOMETHING inbuilt that just happens to also make implantation problematic is unproven, but at least plausible.
Sorry for some reason I didn’t see this comment till now. It would be possible since they are decedents from humans from Earth. I’m not sure how their implants, which we saw they did have, would work with the Goa’uld.
Tollana itself was already a place of refuge for the survivors of previous catastrophe. The nation must have been relatively small at the time of Anubis's attack.
I think they had colonies but they are probably as different as the u.s. and England or Mexico and Spain. I also like that they are surviving in the ruins of their world. Also they stated in their initial meeting with sg1 after seeing an eagle that all the animals on their world had been killed off. So unless they were bringing them in from somewhere else don't know how they would be hunting.
I do like that idea, the colonies being as different as countries given what we know about them. As for the animal's thing I assume they would have brought some of them to from Tollan to Tollana, as well as Tollana having native wildlife.
by the way, fandom has many many errors, i wouldn't depend on that site for the correct info 100% of the time in my experience it's right about 85% of the time, i also remember the episode when some of the Tollan survived, but of course it was just referenced very vaguely, but the show writers never came back to their story ark, which was a real shame. but my assumption is they found themselves on some isolated planet or perhaps they found out how to integrate with the Ashen, they were very similar people and had technology that almost mirrored their own, and may not know of SG1's role in knowing their secret for being untrustworthy people who created the sterility vaccine.
@@sg-24 no i don't, it was so long ago, i would really have to go back and watch them the old fashioned way to find that info sadly. but i feel it was referenced on the same episode or maybe a few episodes after the Tollan were taken out.
I kind of want them to still be around, since Stargate doesn't exactly have an abundance of significant factions floating about within its universe as it is, so having them still be around and in a state where they might actually be capable off playing a meaningful role in the future events of the series could prove to be a positive thing. Having them retain some surviving hidden colonies would be one way to do that or perhaps another would be to have them living as galatic nomads on board their interstellar ships. There still the question of whether or not they possess hyperdrive technology, with the answer to this question being a significant factor in determining how and in what form they might have been able to survive. Still even if their ships don't use hyperdrives there are still plenty of other ways to explain how they might have been able to survive. But yeah in conclusion anything added to help fill in and populate the Stargate universe does appear likely to be a generally positive thing, at least from what i can tell that is.
You know I didn't realize how much I agree with this idea until I read it. Stargates has a very bi-polarity universe. Where really only two factions really matter, and I defiantly prefer the multi polarity setting like we see in Star Trek.
They could play a role similar to the role of Genii in Stargate Atlantis, where the heroes, nor the viewers can never be sure what to expect out of their petty, arrogant politics and where their presence can change the course of events.
A new SG TV show could carry on their story quite readily, 2024 marks 19 years since Anubis was taken off the material plane, locked in the infinite battle. More than enough for a small version of their grandeur to have been rebuilt.
I’m not 100% sure the planet Tollana even still exists. The capital, planet, and seemingly only city on the planet, is wiped out, the Go’a’uld open the fire on all of the fault lines, and of course, there was a storeroom of incredibly powerful phase shifting bombs. I haven’t watched the episode in a long time, so I may be a misremembering, but I kind of feel like maybe they sent the phase, shifting bombs to the core of their own planet to wipe it out? I’m probably misremembering that. In any event, I don’t think they had any colony worlds, Jack clearly says they were wiped out, and regardless of anybody’s view on extended canon, I think, generally speaking, the actual show itself always has to be taken as primary canon, and then anything in the deuterocanon contradicting that is probably Just not true. No offense if anybody is really attached to it. I don’t mean to be insulting. It’s just the way I think. I think the garbled message at the end of the episode is deliberately garbled, which would have allowed the show to bring the Tolan back if they had a good reason to do so, But assume they are dead if a good reason to re-introduce them never came up. In other words, I think they are extinct unless the TV show writers decided to bring them back, which clearly they never did before the end of the series.
What’s sad is was so close, or was given a small glimpse. She did say something about not being able to refuse engineer the tech. But imagine if she had the time to properly study it.
I think any Tollan survivors would double down on their isolationism. They would find planets to hide on and develop a society that relies more on stealth than weapons tech to defend themselves. RE the stargate - well, even if it was destroyed, the could probably build a new one. Again. The ancient who descended built one from items on ebay. In the final view, it doesn't really matter as, except for removing the snake from Sharra, they were not helpful. Perhaps the Nox aided them in using stealth, as they had developed communications with them. Thanks for the fun video.
To me, the Tollans were never really that interesting except for their technology, which existed in the story solely to showcase how wondrous it was and to keep any of it out of Earth hands. I found Trevell to be haughty and arrogant, while Narim was emotionless and bland. Their final appearance in the episode "Between Two Fires" was just the setting where Tanith revealed that he was taking orders from someone much more powerful (Anubis, of course). To be honest, I wasn't especially broken up about the loss of Tollana, but I did like how it set up the next Big Bad Guy for SG-1 to face and just how insanely powerful he was. It might've evoked a bit more sympathy from me if the Tollans hadn't been so stuffy and flatly monotonous. But this is just my little opinion. There are always others. Great video, though! 😎👍
Bunker mentality probably would have had the remaining Tollans outside Tollana keep themselves hidden. This was I believe also towards the introduction of Atlantis so my money is that the showrunners simply did not have the time and resources especially after MGM started going belly up. What still irks me is that the destruction of the Tollans was indirectly caused by the Ancients that allowed Anubis to retain technologies he should never have been able to figure out ALL to "teach" Oma a lesson.
When it comes to the gate, I would expect Anubis could well have put a classic stargate on the planet to replace the destroyed one. Even though he has lots of ships, stargates are still the fastest way to travel.
Huh that makes me wonder. Where does the Tollana gate fall in the gate hierarchy. We know never gates take precedent over older ones, for example if you dial a planet with a Pegasus and Milky Way gate on it the Pegasus one gets the wormhole. But the Tollan’s gate was made by them/Nox, so would it even register in the system at all as a new gate?
It would’ve been cool if the Tauri had got their hands on at least one cannon to backwards engineer and have the Asgard help make it more powerful. Imagine those on the tauri warships and possibly Atlantis as a secondary option to the drones and chew through some wraith hive ships.
That does sound pretty cool. Kind of makes you wonder why they didn’t, especially since I think they did get the designs. Sure they couldn’t replicate it, but with the Asgard core anything is possible.
much of the Tollan homeworld locations were filmed at Simon Fraser University, located on Burnaby Mountain, in Vancouver, where the series was shot, primarily the main large courtyard in front of the SFU library building and the Quad, 4 sided building with a small green park inside.
I believe any possible survivors are in several different places. Also the in The system Lords and Anubis have been defeated. To go back to tolana would be just rescue and happened probably in the background of other operations.
The Tollans were in fact not much more evolved than Tau'ri. They cracked some neat tech, but have not truly evolved like the other four great races. We could say that they were arrogantly playing above their league. Btw.: I always liked how the same university campus, which is used as "Tollana" in SG1 also appears as the "Caprica City" in Battlestar Gallactica.
Love that first part about how the Tollan were not as evoked as they thought. Also that same campus was used in Andromeda. Not as big as the other two, but just another one to add to the list.
Cool, I always assumed they were completely wiped out in the show. I think it does make sense that they have some offworld colonies or outposts but it does bring up the question as to why they wouldn't have contacted anyone after the attack. Especially since in the show Anubis was eventually dealt with, so you would think any occupation on Tollana would have more or less fallen at that point, so anyone left would be able to come out of hiding and seek help. The only real explanation for the colonies not contacting Earth I can think of is maybe they didn't know about them. We often view other races/cultures in the show as a monolith, but it would probably be a lot more stratified and complex in reality. So maybe only certain high up officials or specific government personnel had any real knowledge about the dealing w/ Earth. And they may have all died. Even the colonies might not have been privy to the information. After all on earth the Stargate is a top secret military project, so anyone using it would be briefed about a lot of what was going on around it. But on Tolan it is just a fancy bus. People could use it to travel around possibly w/o knowing about any of the diplomatic actions taken by the government.
I can see wanting to get rid of the Tollan from a story telling narrative, but I'd disagree with using it as an argument for their destruction; lets not forget the Nox, they were a powerful, advanced, and pacifist people too and they are still around, and the Asgardians were disadvantaged greatly when Anubis took the memories of Thor to gain the advantage they gained over the Tollan in the first place yet continued to pull through until S10.
@@sg-24 No problem! Pellor has an entry on the Stargate Fandom wiki that references the novels and states that they retrieved over a dozen survivors from Tollana after the Go'uld attack. It also states they were in the "cybernetic age" of technology with an FTL ship and no stargate and that Pellor became the new capital.
100% I don't care, they weren't dumb enough not to put a few of that bombs onto missiles and fire them at the Goa'uld motherships destroying them. An there ships. Which allowed them to get passed the Goa'uld fleet. I bet most of the Tolland went to the Nox homeworld.
@@sg-24 I just remember a comment by Daniel that the Tollan would be able to have a ship “swing by” wherever it was “sometime in the next year”. I can’t remember the episode
I supposed that depends on what you count as canon. For the old RPGs most agree no. Worlds was supposed to be. Everyone was behind the idea, even the writers of the show, but it fell off when the studio closed. As for the new one it’s in a weird place. Again a lot of people do t consider stuff outside the shows as canon, but MGM stepped in to review the book before it was releases, giving their approval. If you consider none of that stuff canon then no.
Ok...what do i think... Well, after watching all of your video, i think... You covered it all and i have nothing to say except this silly comment in lieu of it. Well done my good sir. Chapeau...Chapeau.
Tollan were Switzerland of Galaxy. Advanced and able to defend themselves, but too small and with no capacity to build the empire. I'm sure there are some off world outposts. While I believe they were underutilized as a fraction and like Ashen, deserved longer story arc - maybe interaction between the two - wiping them out, like Asgard, was bold and good decision by screenwriters. Anyway, with fall of Tollana, their civilisation was decisively broken.
Will try to watch it later when i have a minute but i always thought it would have been a great idea to have the surviving tollan join the tokra to make them create a new blended identity. Make two united and feel like they could actually become an actual threat to the gould if only as a power that could rival one or two mid system lords.
That is a really interesting idea. A lot of people have been going for a Tollan the new villains angle, but I think it makes more sense for them to team up with old allies.
@@sg-24thank you for the reply. I thought it would have given a feeling of creating a new alliance council with the "tolkera" and the free Jaffa nation making a new alliance. All they need was the two factions to become one and have the tokra queen or new queen take her place to keep their numbers up. I never understood otherwise how the tokra could have such a major city after the end of the movie. ive always figured there were at this point being only a few hundred to a couple of thousand since they can't easily replace their numbers. Having willing hosts and a queen would fix that for me in my mind at least.
@seanfarrell6386 right and if I remember why that’s why they pulled out of the alliance with Earth and the Jaffa. They couldn’t afford to replace any losses. There actually a book that deals with this subject, invoking the Tok’Ra time traveling to find a queen.
Hard to say. They were able to produce tech that would be just as advanced as Ancients (such as ion cannons). But ship wise they seemed to be far behind what Ancients had.
@@sg-24 This is true. Although there was a big time gap between Earth finding Tolans and seeing their tech and not understanding how it works, and Earth finding any tech from the ancients, it did seem like SGC couldn't comprehend how the Tollan tech seemed to work at all but never got that same level of questions about ancient tech. Could be they had a better understanding at the time they had found ancient tech, or maybe the tollans have a totally different way of doing tech than earthlings or ancients and this could limit things like advances in space travel.
@armedbobery4879 I’m tempted to say the later. I remember Sam saying that Tollan tech had no mechanical moving parts. I’m sure with time they could have understood it, but it could be that it was different enough that it led to some advancements and some delays.
i beleive that the tollan were in fact beat to submission but not wiped out anubis probily decimated most of the colonies as he found them but some probily built underground or cloaked facilities that survived just they had no means of beating him so went turtle and bunkered in so they could build there own tech up again and re-enter the galactic stage possibly as a powerfull ally of the tauree
Why couldn't some of them use there phase/fase tech, so that the bombs had noneffect on them? Phase through a mountain where a cave is to hid from the attack. Something at least.
Maybe some did, which is where some of the survivors come from. As for why more didn’t I’m not sure. Though I am wondering if that tech was just something not available to the wider public
I would have thought that the Tollan (not in huge numbers) could have used their phase technology sink into vast underground tunnels under the surface of their world. I would hope that Narum would have lead many of his people to the vast underground caverns. I think once they are able to build some starships (which would be even superior to the Asguard). They would leave what is left of Tollana and maybe even visit Earth to share their tech with SG1.
Some have comment about that, I’m not sure why they didn’t use the phase shift. Maybe it wasn’t available to the general public? To be honest I don’t think Tollan ships were better than the Asgards. The Asgard regularly traveled between galaxies, while the Tollans seem to take weeks/months to travel between two points in one galaxy. Granted we don’t know the distance between these points, but still.
If there are survivors, especially on a colony world, they might have become even more isolationist than before. They might have moved again to a place where even Anubis couldn't find them. From a planet without a sun in interstellar space to constructing a hollow world between galaxies in a place where it is unlikely that they would be found. Though the whole affair might have invigorated their scientific interests gearing towards new ways to hide and defend themselves. They might turn out like the Vanir, the Asgard of the Pegasus galaxy. Which could have gotten interesting if either were followed up.
They had enough ships to move their entire population and rebuild every city. It's ridiculous to think they didn't have other colonies and outposts. The problem is, that once the served their purpose in the story line, they needed to disappear. Once they were attacked and harmed by the Goa'uld, their colonies, who would have already known about the threat, would have been on a more warlike standing. The Stargate story line did not want another powerful group of humans. They only worked as long as they were passive. They also knew that the Goa'uld were the enemies of humans. It's reasonable that they could take the path of isolation, but they would have been constantly monitoring the Goa'uld, and would be updating their technology in case the Goa'uld did too. Their society was designed to the fit the story, and it is really one of those sci-fi civilization that would be too stupid to exist as described. Another major hole in their destruction story, was that they cooperated with Anubis and then because of a minor sabotage, Anubis destroyed them. If Anubis had any intelligence at all, he would have just made them construct new weapons. He would have destroyed them eventually in any case, but he would have waited until they built more weapons and sent one to earth. Anubis was the worst (as in poorly constructed) villain in the entire series. The stories worked because most of the other characters were pretty good. The Goa'uld attacked them just a year or so earlier, and destroyed almost all of their defense systems. That would have caused a major reevaluation of their supposed invulnerability, and they would have been in the process of taking actions to protect their population. Writers make civilizations monumentally stupid to fit a story.
once they had star ships they should have gone back to the planets they got cut off from like the one that was underground or the one where they were put in little cages
Having one ion Cannon is useless to cover earth and to be honest...the tolans literally ripped off Earth with that deal. But...since they had one, they could have installed it on the Prometheus or dedalus, or if not capable to install on a ship transfer it to Atlantis ..., but it was never mentioned again.
I would say they went dark. after the loss of both the original home world and then the second one. we know how arrogant they can be and i could see them thinking its just best to hold up and hide
Well, as far as the RPG books are concerned they aren't cannon to the show, what we see from the show is that it considers them completely destroyed. I also don't think Anubis used their tech as it would have been useful on multible occasions, probably because he sees ancient tech as being superior. He could also just use them as hist or pull info from their minds if he needed too. But I recall watching a scifi short interview thing which stated that the producers did think there were Tolan survirors or worlds, probably where the books got the idea from, and at that time hadn't done anything with the idea. Considering Prometheus was not exactly reliable at the time so the only ships they had access to were Tokra and were or would be on the mend around this time, I don't think there was a way to write this in. But I think the bunker idea is what would happen. After all, it wasn't until the Tolan started to involve itself in interstellar politics more that their new homeworld was destroyed, so they may have chosen to remain in isolation and hidden. But I would have liked to see Tolan survivors idea explored on screen, especially as Earth got more reliable ships.
@sg-24 Yes, it was in one of those behind the scene things which SciFi channel used to do. I was even about to add that, the idea stayed alive until Narim's actor was cast as Wier's boyfriend so they assumed that they were going to leave them extinct. However they did think they could bring them back in another form in season 9 or 10, but by that time ScFi's parent company NBC Universal was looking for cuts, and so SG-1 was cancled.
*SG1 goes back to the planet to find the Tollan survivors, living in caves basically bombarded back to the Stone Age.* Tollan: "You know, we could really do with some help." Jack O'Niell: "I'm sorry. We don't help *lesser* people."
The Thollans ARE humans so without access to their civilization, they are just humans. If they cannot propregate their culture, they are gone. They would not be Thollands anymore.
Maybe there isn't an easy way for them to get from their other colonies to earth. We don't know much about them so maybe they are terraformed worlds that don't have a star gate on them preventing any real movement of the survivors to regroup with Earth.
There is some lore on them that I didn’t add for this video (later one planned) but if I recall these colonies were originally cut off. So I don’t think they had stargates.
"Wiped out by the Gould" could be a figure of speech by Jack O'Neill to get the point across that their race underwent catastrophic population decline. Similar to how people referred to the American Chestnut as extinct after the chestnut blight.
That is something I thought about when writing the script for this. Maybe we could say the Grace alien ship was a Tollan ship. And they were defending their territory from outsiders.
I’d always wished they were around in the time of end of SG1 end of Season 3 Atlantis time, so we could go there and say, “um our technology, weapons and ships are for more advanced than yours and it’s our law to not share our technology with primitive and less advanced cultures” 😂
The Tollan probably exist in smaller numbers than the rebel Asgard seen in later Atlantis episodes. They might control a few planets, but those planets have at most one or two hidden outposts or bunkers with populations in the dozens. At the absolute most they have a few thousand Tollan living on the Nox planet in one invisible sky city. Think it's called Little Tollana, Tollatown, or Tollberg?
Tollatown 😂. As for the rest I’m not so sure. Someone in comments of my previous videos said they had a higher population, but I can’t remember the number.
Hi, given their technological advancement cloning may be a method of generating a working population and then move back to a traditional method of mating and diversifying biologically. You see this with androids in StTNG in Picard and for those who can understand the need to be a clone army or workforce with all the rights of the rest of society. So may possibilities and when faced with the end how far would they go. Take care M.
@markeh1971 that definitely an option, since if they move out of it fast enough that can avoid the issue the Asgard had. Not sure if they have the tech left to clone people, but I can see them trying.
@@sg-24 Hi, manpower would be an issue, the tech to clone is known by the Asgar, they are all clones so they have it to create and educate the clones. It just that you can’t keep using clones as a population, you need to mix in fresh DNA which was what Loki was looking for. If you get the history of the world at times it was touch and go fur us as the ice age reduced numbers. Thank good we bread well! AI may solve that or just kill us off. Take care all M
Lets say we colonised mars it has a population of a few thousand it would take them decay's at least and centres at most to develop all the infostructure they need to become self sufficient on mars, about the Tollan colonies without their new home world may not have been able to sustain themselves so they could have been abandoned to join more developed civilisation's
No. After Goaulds, Replicators and Ori all ruined the milky way galaxy, there is close to ZERO chance any Tolan comunity did survive. Unless they somehow managed to reach the NOX homeworld, right after the Anubis take-over. Maybe had some ships out of their star system at the time of the attack, but almost everything left there was destroyed. Possibly dozens of people managed to run trought the Tolan Stargate, but WHERE is the question.
@@sg-24 I kinda fear, that after repli-Carter led the Replicators in the Milky way, Nox got eaten. I mean - she knew the level of their tech and roughly position of their planet (according the stargate adress to get on their planet). Would explain, why no another Nox spotting was reported...
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
The best option for any Tollan Survivors were to contact The Nox. That is if they knew the coordinates to their planet.
I have to assume some do, though maybe only government officials.
They worked with the nox to build their stargate
That was how they left Earth, SG-1 gave them the coordinates to the Nox and the Tollans sent an FTL distress beacon so they definitely knew the coordinates to the Nox plus they communicated with the Nox for the trial so they had diplomatic relations with the Nox. However, the Nox are pacifists who believe in non-intervention so there's no indication that they would take on refugees..
I'd imagine an outcome like Ronan's people from SGA any possible survivors would be scattered across the galaxy unable to rebuild their society
That’s actually a pretty good outcome to compare.
Or the travelers who chooses to remain Nomadic to avoid becoming a stationary target.
Except that they kind of did. They were at least settled on two or three words with all of them having a rough head count of their survivors. Thats a first step to rebuilding.
Hopefully, they did have other colonies. Although, they may have been arrogant enough to have most of their eggs in one basic.
Hi, arrogance will not top survival. There would always be off shoots and groups in other enlightened races. As long as a core remains they can repopulate. Indeed their exploration may have been for this very point. Secret plans may have existed to survive this or another natural catastrophe.
It may take time but they would recover.
Take care M.
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If there is one thing that bothered me about writing in Stargate is that civilizations are primarily shown to be in one place. Like civilizations having like 3 cities in an area the size of Arizona being an advanced civilization. As for the Tollan, I could see them having built colonies using ships like the Aschen and being on these planets in relatively small numbers. So maybe 3/4 of the population at the lowest living on Tollana and the remaining quarter being scattered over a few worlds without stargates on them.
It was also mentioned than Tollan hyperdrives were relatively slow. Omak mentions it would have taken a Tollan ship more than a lifetime to get from Tollana to Earth. So, even if these small colonies had ships, we have no idea if they could get anywhere quickly. We don’t know how the gate network is distributed. For all we know it’s not distributed around the galaxy evenly and the Tollan might exist in a part of the galaxy where stargates are few and far between. So maybe sending a ship to a planet with a know gate that isn’t Tollan might be out of the question for them. So we don’t see them because there remaining colonies are small, lack stargates and their ships can’t get to one in a reasonable amount of time? Given these limitations, keeping ships closer to home would be a smarter idea than trying to establish contact with Earth.
That’s a really good explanation, and I really like the idea that the Stargates are not evenly distributed across the galaxy. The only issue with it I see is that later seasons introduced faster FTL. I think this change really hit the Tollan hard because they’re supposedly one of the most advanced groups, yet their FTL is laughable compared to what we see later.
@@sg-24I always figured that had something to do with Anubis. He upgraded his ships shields, it would make sense he’d do the same with hyperdrives. The main way that it’s shown you can increase speed is to pump more power into the drive, so maybe the other System Lords did that to keep up with better technology? The Asgard hyperdrives were already crazy fast, it was always the Goa’uld and other human groups that had slow drives. Also, Anubis did probe Thor’s mind. He might have gotten the tech from him. And if the Tok’ra can infiltrate the system lords, they probably spy on each other.
there could be survivors especially if they had small outposts which was not found or one made it to a planet abandoned by the Goa'Uld long ago, now this one lives as the weird hermit
Tollan hyperdrives might have been slow compared to the Goa'uld version but they still had FTL communications. I can imagine scattered survivors asking the Nox for refuge. And even under Anubis there's no indication that the Goa'uld were ever a threat to the Nox homeworld.
I imagine there were survivors. Some would have hidden. Some would have escaped but some would have faced a worse fate. When I was a leader of a SG1 based RPG, I was planning a Gou’ald whose host was Tolan and used some of their technology to maintain a position of power.
Ah but remember under Tollan law both parties have a right to the body.
I’m kidding, but wow I never really thought about it much since in the show we don’t see this often. Prisoners being taken as host, trapped inside their own body as it’s used to commit horrors.
@sg-24 not to mention implantation as interrogation.
We know from the events of Mobius that putting a Goa'uld in a prisoner's head in order to extract information is not unheard of, and considering that to the Tollan stuff like Quantum physics is considered an "elementary science", goodness knows what absurd techniques even a more mundane citizen might have comprehensive knowledge of, let alone an actual expert in a given field.
Though I suppose since it was Anubis who wiped them out, he likely wouldn't have let that happen. It would be giving an underling access to knowledge and technology that rivaled his own, and he wouldn't like that at all.
@@RipOffProductionsLLC maybe it was a goa uld minor lord who screwed up and anubis was "displeased" and he tries to save his own skin but gets discovered by the sg team because he or she was too nice to the tau'ri for being a real tollan, have him ally with the tau'ri because anubis was "displeased" and these tau'ri are his only hope for survival.
LOL, I can't even imagine how hilarious the meeting between the tollan survivors and the light and dark folks was.
I imagine just how I depicted in the video. They open the door and you got some Tollan trying to find the words, while some are having mental breaks.
-Are there Tollan Survivors?
-Yes!
-May I see them?
-No.
I'm a simple man. I see a video from SG-24, I click.
Kind of weird heading someone refer to me in the third person…. Keeping going.
One thing you didn't mention is that Anubis probably went and conquered the colonies after taking out the homeworld. Still probably some did survive, but not enough to make a difference.
I did think about that, but I have a really good reason as to why I didn’t bring it up. The books never said it happened. Don’t get me wrong I agree that Anubis, or any Goa’uld would have gone after them, but the implication seems to be they were left alone. Maybe it was some Prothean thing were they delete them from the archives in order to protect them?
@@sg-24 Anubis does have the technology to read minds, so any prisoners could reveal the locations. Plus you did bring up that he was actively trying to capture Tollans on the homeworld, so the chance of a colony existing would be very tempting
@Katthewm oh… I don’t think I have a good reason then. Maybe Anubis did wipe out the colonies and that’s why we never heard from them again.
@@Katthewm
Anubis tech didn't read their minds, it was an implant that would scan their entire minds and extract that data or in thor's case, his entire mind was downloaded, so i suspect Anubis likely tried to capture these people and extract everything he could from them to advance his own position of power.
Lol maybe the colony's adopted a nox like isolation. When anyone suggest helping/interacting with the galaxy at large they point at tolana and go "see what happens when u talk to strangers"
I really love the idea of them surviving in some state, but i feel that we may have missed the WINDOW OF OPPORTUNITY to explore that. Maybe the survivors went off and stayed off the grid with the Nox, only re-emergeling after the Ori defeat when a kinder galaxy allows for a safer rebuilding. Or maybe Maybourne is running their world now too. Lol
Might be the basis for a sequel though by centering around a surviving Tollan colony.
To quote Vigil from Mass Effect: "The genocide of an entire species is a long, slow process."
I think there should be at least a few surviving Tollans. My guess is that they used their advanced technology to hide somewhere in the galaxy, this way they don't need to deal with the Goa'uld, the Replicators, the Ori or any civilization that is less advanced.
I mean, the Tollan were already pretty diminished from the last disaster that fucked up the planet they were living on, and they never gave the indication that they were a particularly prolific people. It might not have taken all THAT long...
when the power of sam carters , black widow feild is so great that it whipes out 90% of an alien race just to get rid of one of her many , many, many love intrests just to get rid of one of said love intrests that managed to survive to the anbius arc. we really should consider romancing her with earths many enemys or other annoyaince races that wont let us touch their cool shit. so the wrath of sam/o'niel shipers may descend upon them like the fury of god.
My God… the answer was staring us in the face all this time!
This is also a thing with worf from star trek.
I'm lucid enough to actually write a thought-out post, so here's what I believe thusfar.
I take it that Stargate doesn't generally retcon entire races out of lore for the hell of it, they just have a habit of introducing races that they can't use to make the plot go forwards after a bit and they just have them be wiped out by the big bad guy of the season/seasons. Functionally that actually seems alright, because as cheap as it is, it's a way to close a loop and fill in the narrative pothole.
As for if there could be survivors, if they don't outright say that there are no Tollans left, there are Tollan survivors. And if their colonies are still around and its not explicitly mentioned that there colonies were hit after the fact, it's likely that the Tollans can overtime come to rebuild. But realistically, the Tollans have experienced a fall from grace so terrible that they're never going to be able to return to that apex of strength.
And it is entirely their fault that they experienced that fall. They didn't take their enemies seriously enough to effectively defend against them, and then they actually let their genocidal enemies wander freely around their homeworld to find the batteries of ion cannons they use to defend against them, and mark them with beacons for precision strikes. Even primitive societies defend valuable infrastructure and the defensive weaponry that ensures they'll carry on surviving as a society. Armories receive guards for these reasons especially. The Tollans do not understand the
Technologically the Tollans are probably not going to stagnate too badly after this, or lose that technology. They may not have the means to replicate it for quite some time, as losing the homeworld ensures that quite a lot of valuable infrastructure that was necessary for supporting those colonies is now gone or otherwise inoperative. But they will have the knowledge at least to do so, and with that knowledge they can both trade for aid, and as well, replicate the technology overtime to reach their colonies, and to perhaps build their own stargates. And as well, with it, they'll hopefully not end up making all the same mistakes they did before.
There's a chance that the Tollans will take a turn and become something more than arrogant pacifist hippies with a chip on their shoulder - in all likelihood really, they'll probably begin to build warships and start to work on rebuilding what they lost. Maybe even at some point retake Tollana if they reach a point where such a thing ends up palletable and doable. But that's an if, a big one. The Tollans can rebuild their society, they still have the colonies and the ships. But they're never going to return to that arrogant apex of power they enjoyed, and then lost because they couldn't recognize what others could plainly see - they were their own worst enemy.
I like and agree with everything you said. The one thing is Stargate… well they don’t retcon races out of the plot, it’s more like they just ignore them. They may get lucky and their tech or biology may come up again. But for the most part they are just ignored after one or two episodes.
@@sg-24 I suppose that retcon is a poor choice of word. That's as well true.
After all, we never figured out what happened to the Gadmeer but they're presumably extant given the ship did make it back to terraform the planet.
The Tok'ra would not have accepted Tolan technology. They went into it when they first met SG1. The Tok'ra explained that their effectiveness is from fitting in. Using foreign technology would have given them away to the Goa'uld.
Uh… I don’t remember that. Then again it’s been a while since I watched that episode. My good then.
Definitely give The Tok'ra another watch. It's a great episode and totally worth it.
@sg-24 okay, I was happily convinced to rewatch The Tokra part 1. They mention it around 40 minutes in.
@@sg-24I remember that scene basically in the field the Tok'ra basically only use Gould tech or things that are so stealthy and do useful that it is worth the risk at least for that mission (and I get the impression that most of that tech is stuff other Gould use in assassination and spy craft but that is speculation) on the other hand Tok'ra do have unique tech they use in their bases but all of it needs to be highly portable usable deep under ground and not obvious on Ghould long range sensors least when on standby and preferably when in use, also they need to not leave a long lasting signature.
While this is true, some of the things would have been acceptable, such as making the scanners and other weapons more effective. The look would be the same, just more powerful.
Falling to simple deception.
Having only one way to defend themselves? And having it in the open for anyone to see/analyze.
No backup defenses when knowing there are enemies around?
Can build gates and not having several in key positions to escape?
So advanced. 0 foresight.
😢 so sad.. the bad decisions of their government doomed so many innocent civillians...
Good point. They’re government may have been arrogant, but there were innocent people who really lost in the end
@@sg-24sounds kinda human, ehhh?
Yep
That is what I like about the Tollan storyline. Turns out that technology is not everything.
I am reminded of a scene from Firefly...
Jayne, Zoey and Mal are in Badgers den of thieves...
Jayne makes a comment about being stuck up...and then some one says Pretentious.
And Jayne replies..yeah...you think you're better than everyone else. Or something along those lines.
This reminds me of the Tolan.
It strikes me that the Tolen from Stargate are much like the TNG-era Federation from Star Trek:
1) They have a very strict non-intervention policy
2) They are very confident in their own moral superiority. Arrogant, even.
3) They do legitimately mean well, and they do have a legitimate reason for their policies
4) They wear rather silly-looking late-1980s-style clothes, as per TNG
5) They're all atheists, as explicitly stated in their first appearance
6) They don't *appear* to use any form of money (Though this never really comes up)
7) They have a significant technological superiority over most of the other species they come across.
8) They're basically peaceful, only fight if attacked, no death penalty, that sort of thing.
9) kind of naive.
the hook for their first appearance is basically "what's it like for the people who suffer because the Federation won't intervene?"
I specify 'The TNG Era' (TNG-through-voyager) because in the original Trek, 'noninterference' was obviously much more of a sliding scale, and Kirk and Co repeatedly choose to err on the side of compassion rather than law. And there seem to have been no repercussions from this. Whereas in TNG, it's taken far more humorlessly and (IMO) inhumanely.
In the episode "Pretense," Teal'c observes that the Tolen are naive. They haven't fought a war in such a long time that they don't really think strategically, they are relatively easily manipulated by bad actors, and ultimately that's their undoing.
I dunno. Just a passing thought. It's interesting because SG1 - and the Gate-iverse as a whole - has no such compunctions about noninterference. They do discuss it early on, and there is a lot of discussion as to whether or not earth/the USAF has the right to do some of the stuff they do, and on occasion first contact situations do go very, very very badly (Such as anything concerning the planet Tegalus, where they accidentally started a civil war, religious fanatics overthrowing the government, and ultimately a nuclear war), so the show doesn't gloss over the issue. And, in some situations, they advise uncontacted aliens on how to isolate themselves from unwanted contact.
Never really saw the connection till now, but wow that comparison is kind of spot on.
I am really enjoying your videos. When O'Neill said they were whipped out, he was giving his opinion of what Stargate Command concluded or believed.
Glad you’re enjoying the videos.
Also true, but the Asgard never corrected him if he was wrong I have to assume they would. It’s also possible he was being metaphorical given what the other sources said.
@@sg-24 Agreed. it is also possible the Asgard did not know as by the terms of the Protection Planet Treaty Tollan would not be a conqueror people.
@@sg-24 At that point in time, there was no way for either the SGC or the Asgard to know one way or another. All evidence that the SGC said at that point, pointed to them being wiped out. The Asgard were too busy trying to be not wiped out by the Replicators. There is no reason why the SGC would think otherwise, and they didn't exactly have the resources to go check on them at that point in time. In the future perhaps, but we as a viewer would never have any reason to know because it was never central to the plot. There would have been survivors.
This is personal, but I don't necessarily mind the colonies concept. While they would have some infrastructure, a colony typically doesn't have the means to process and refine the materials needed to rebuild without intense investment and time. So while this wasn't perfect, it wouldn't have necessarily been too insane.
That’s fair. I could definitely believe that these colonies might not be completely self sufficient yet.
Well, they survived if and only if they write a new story/episode showing their survivors.
But it is true that the existing story allows to have such survivors, without inconsistencies. They don’t need to make timetravel or parallel universe story to make some events un-happen, they just need to find a colony which survived.
That’s fair, though I would say the odds are a lot higher with the knowledge that it’s something tackled before.
My head canon was that there might have been survivors but very very small amount (talking 100's at the most) and in all practical purposes they were wiped out
Jack knowing his character, saying they're "wiped out" holds so little water.
I’m not so sure.
It makes sense that at least some of the Tollan could have survived the bombardment.
There were Tollan colonies mentioned, other planets if I recall. Now these may be tiny, hundreds of people maybe or thousands max. But still, they have people off of the main world so there are survivors, just not enough to make it matter.
The Tollan. Classic example of the "Smug Alien" Archetype.
And one of the comments I saw in a behind the scenes interview about the Tollan was that while possibly others survived, Narim was one of them… and he was now host of Klorel, whos symbiote never left Tollana. Imagine them apples!
I really need to find these behind the scenes videos. I’ve heard some really interesting stuff about them. Like the Aachen being descents of Ancients.
Hello there, I like this kind of video. I may not be very experienced with the Stargate franchise but I like hearing about in this format and approach nevertheless.
May I present a scenario to you that could spark into a interesting scenario video?
Could a united Starcraft coalition of the Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans defeat a infestation of the Flood that has reached the Gravemind stage of development and if they are able to beat them back and or contain the outbreak what would the aftermaths be? How would some Zerg, Protoss, and Terrans react to the information and secrets they have on the Flood and would they react to some of their kind being mentally tormented by the logic plauge and secrets they could not comprehend? Especially since the Zerg is like a Hivemind would the logic plauge even in a early form affect many of their numbers with insanity for years to come and the trauma it would cause?
Circumstances. A fleet of Terrans and a branch of Zerg that have gone rouge from the Zerg hierarchy find a Forerunner shield world the size of a planet which is a research installation with a database dedicated to studying the Flood with security forces run by a Monitor with a small fleet of a few hundred ships as a final failsafe should the Flood completely breakout of the facility however the local Flood outbreak on the installation was able to form a small Gravemind which was smart enough to evade incineration and significantly reduce some of these security defenses including preventing the activation of the Forerunner fleet.
A group of Protoss having a disturbing institution they sense will eventually arrive to the shield world as well.
The Terrans and rouge Zerg who been fighting each other and the Forerunner security sentinels accidentally break the containment zone of the Flood and the Flood begin spreading out with Pure Forms overwhelming some of the isolated and unprepared Zerg and Terran forces. Gathering their knowledge to the Gravemind as well as understanding where they come from their current mindset and weaponry. The scouting Protoss group arrive to the scene seeing the Flood for the first time and seeing infected Terrans and Zerg mutate into such rotten abomninaitions disturbs them extremely and try to aid the Sentinels, Terrans, and Zerg in trying to exterminate the present Flood threat however shortly after the Flood are able to take many airborn and space flying craft and land boarding parties on some of their ships. A couple ships are taken and escape off world heading for deep space.
The Monitor immediately contacts all parties Terran, Zerg, and Protoss forces to inform them of the danger at once and instructs them to clear the Flood infestation stopping his security protocols from being enacted and that the entire galaxy is in danger and the escaping Flood need to be exterminated. Could they stop the Flood in time before it becomes uncontrollable with the help of the small Forerunner fleet?
This an interesting idea, and I do a lot of Halo and fair about StarCraft. I have considered moving into other franchises someday, and I would consider tackling this one, but as to when I would get to it I can’t say.
@@sg-24
I understand and that is pretty good reason. Such interesting topics takes time to consider and make with fine quality and good standard. This could take place some yesrs after the three way truce between the factions.
On the scenario I think the Zerg would be the worse greatly affected the most despite their incredible reactive adaption capabilities against poisonous substances and gases being faster and more efficient then even the adaption of the Tyranids the Flood are far far worse then all the deadly diseases the Zerg have ever encountered and their infestation potency seems nearly absolute as no cure was ever found for the Flood. The Forerunners and Ancient Humans tried desperately but they never found a outright immunity for Flood infection by the Supercell only ways to make it a inconvenience at best. And to make matters worse the Forerunners tried to revive infected subjects by putting their minds into cloned bodies and it failed because the nature of the Flood's infection also infects the spirit somehow and that clone body turned into a Combat Form with the Flood Supercell. If Zerg lose their leaders to Flood infection can you imagine to chaos and confusion it would bring as a consequence?
The Zerg can try to create and imploy some protective body armor and defensive acid mechanisms to reduce their drones and bases becoming outright combat forms or biomass for the Flood to feed on but a immunity to the Flood is relatively impossible for them to achieve due to the eldritch reality bending nature of the Flood. Zerg forces will be constantly at risk and have constant liabilities due to how they engage in combat which is something the Flood would be all the more welcoming of.
If the Terrans doctors were able to find a cure to Zerg's infestation for their colonists but the Forerunners and Ancient Humanity were unable to for the Flood then the potency of these two's horde kinds methods of infections are astronomically far apart from each other it isn't funny. Not to mention the Flood would outright steal the Zerg's traits for their own purposes.
So the Zerg would be a complete liability to the coalition's efforts of exterminating the Flood with these variables in mind. They would just be feeding the Flood biomass and with the Flood's expotential rate of infecting entire planetary centers this is a very scary prospect.
Tollana already being one of their colonized planets as SG-1 found them by rescuing survivors from their destroyed home world.
It would be amazing if the surviving colonies had formed a permanent trade and defence agreement with the Tau'ri. Yeah they see them as less advanced but the BC 304s would probably change their mind
The phasing tech was small, hand held, meaning all they would need is to send one bomb with the small device to the power room or even just through the shields of the attacking ship.
They had ships too so they had colonies.
Okay weirdly enough I just read a comment about the phase bombs, but it was about them phasing through the planet and blowing it up.
Moving on I assume all the bombs were destroyed. But even if they weren’t I can kind of see the Tollan not using them.
Edit: okay seeing edited version now. To be honest I don’t have a good reason beyond the Tollan are really bad at military strategy and focused only on evacuation
Sorry I meant to say the hand held devices not the bombs we saw getting blown up. I've edited it to what I meant to say. Like the one Narim uses in their first appearance and triad.
My head cannon on the Tolan. It's that they wouldn't go to humans for help.As we are less technologically advanced, they were, however, being mentored by the Nox, A species who also mysteriously vanished, never to be heard from again, and who was the last species that they have Interacted with? So I believe that when the tolin planet was blown up, they fled to the knox, who then both went into hiding, never to be heard from again
That’s a really cool theory, would explain why the Nox just stop appearing.
I gotta ask: what, if anything, did the Tollan actually DO in service to the fight against the Goa'uld? I mean, maybe they could have done some off-screen stuff we never heard about, but is there any specific indication in the show that they ever actually did anything particularly useful...?
Well they….. I mean there was that one time they….. uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh OH! They destroyed at least three mother ships when they entered their orbit.
I can totally accept that any colonies left after Tollana was sacked would lay real low. On the other hand these colonies would be even more tempting target for Anubis and others. Still all it would take is a small number of Tollan with access to their tech, recources and time to get back on their feet BUT having been caught out like that theyd probably go full Genii hiding their entire presense as much as possible and hiding their infrastructure and population even better a bit like the Nox who we know they knew.
I found it weird the Tollan escape ships didn't seem to have their phase shifting tech so Gau'old weapons fire would pass through them. Anubis might have had weapons that could hit them even shifted, but it wasn't established if so.
That is kind of weird, though maybe if the ship phased everyone would fall out of it?
@@sg-24 maybe. It could also be they just the thought ever occured to them that their ships might be threatened by superior tech ship until it was too late. Maybe Anubis was watching for them retrofitting any ships with that tech to escape.
@16:18 the Goa'uld blast is taking out the Starbucks on the SFU campus. Wonder if that is a Battlestar Galactica Easter egg…oh, the conspiracies.😅
Fun thing I noticed while eating this, if you look in the background on the right hand side. While everyone else is running around like the world is going to end, there just some guy walking around. I’m sure that’s just a student who got caught in the shot.
They also built their own stargate rather than use a relic left by the Ancients so there is the possibility that they may have a small minigate in a lab as a prototype much as one was built out of toasters, microwaves and whatever could be ordered online in Samantha's basement except perhaps one that won't burn out after a single use. Then there's the possibility of launching spaceships and phasing them so they could not be shot down, the possibility that there was already Tolan's off world and the possibility of just hiding on the planet and going with asymmetric warfare.
I mean, if I were in charge of them, I would have had an emergency plan anyway, but at least once it became clear that the defenses are imperfect, so after the trial. And in case of the Tollan being high-tech Isolationists, I would have looked for a planet without gate or would have removed the gate from a remote barely known planet and set up shop there.
I have no doubt the Tollans could build ships if they wanted to. And due to their nature of non-interference the Nox might even be more inclined to help out. I don't think the Nox would have let them onto their own planet. The Nox may be xenophiles but they are also Isolationists in their own right.
I could even imagine the Tollans looking for a safe space outside of our Galaxy. We know of 5 Galaxies the Ancients have been to and these are the four we visit in all series. These are the Pegasus, Milky Way, Alteran Home Galaxy / Ori Galaxy, and the SGU-Galaxy in which the ship places new Stargates, and there's also the Asgard Home Galaxy, which at least has one gate in it.
Considering the function of the Destiny, I have also no doubt that there could be more Galaxies with a ready-to use Stargate network. Or an at least partially usable. So with Stargates being present, it means these Galaxies are reachable from Tollana. And the Tollans have the means to generate a lot of power, which is necessary.
To assume that SGC was the first faction after the Ancients to be able to create a stable connection between two galaxies is kinda weird in context of more advanced factions being around. The Asgard don't use the Gates, unless they have no other option.
And we know another thing about the Tollans: They do go for expeditions / They leave their planet for different reasons. Which is how SG1 met them in the first place.
So yeah, I think there's a colonies somewhere. Not big ones by any means, but there should be some settlements.
Good video.
At absolute minimum, the Tollan had an entire planet to hide on. Doesn't matter how many troops Anubis sent in, I have difficulty believing that he'd ever bag ALL of them. Heck, this kind of situation would just be Tuesday for SG-1 or the Tok'Ra.
They referred to their ships being shot down, but a few still might have gotten away. That the Ga'ould shot down the majority, I would attribute to surprise and sheer weight of numbers. Given how how awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) was, I imagine that their ships still had a surprise or two, even when at a severe disadvantage. So, any that chose to "cut and run" would arguably have had a chance.
Bitter experience could have led many surviving Tollan, individually OR collectively, to go Full Isolationist. They already had this superiority complex thing, whereby pretty much everybody else in the Galaxy were primitives. Add to that, their deeply ingrained reluctance to share their knowledge, akin to Star Trek's 'Prime Directive'. Then, they get this harsh lesson of just how treacherous and dangerous these 'primitives' can be, and their much-vaunted technology failed to save them. There are still 'primitives' out there who SAY they are friends, but it's no secret that they also want Tollan tech, so can they really be trusted? Easy to picture how at least some Tollan survivors could end up becoming paranoid, even downright xenophobic.
Always an annoyance to me that , in most SF franchises, super-advanced races tend to be extreme pacifists. I get why - avoiding easy "outs" for the good guys. Babylon 5 actually came closest to avoiding this - various super-races, and it was not all Black and White. But still .....
I loved this comment for many reasons, the top was that line about awesome Tollan tech (allegedly) 😂.
That aside that could be an interesting idea for later. The next big bass being the Tollan survivors who now see the whole galaxy as primates.
@@sg-24 Thank you. Something else that only just occurred to me. Tollan as Ga'ould hosts? Since they are human (or close enough), I'd infer this would be possible.
But what I wonder about is what the Tollan might have done to themselves beforehand. Thinking implants, genetic engineering and whatever else the Tollan might routinely do to protect against disease, parasites and the like - both for their own world(s) and elsewhere. That they might have SOMETHING inbuilt that just happens to also make implantation problematic is unproven, but at least plausible.
@@sg-24 Surely that the Aschen niche in the stargate galaxy.
Sorry for some reason I didn’t see this comment till now. It would be possible since they are decedents from humans from Earth.
I’m not sure how their implants, which we saw they did have, would work with the Goa’uld.
I'd imagine the Tollans have survived though not as a nation. Just scattered survivors.
Tollana itself was already a place of refuge for the survivors of previous catastrophe. The nation must have been relatively small at the time of Anubis's attack.
I think they had colonies but they are probably as different as the u.s. and England or Mexico and Spain. I also like that they are surviving in the ruins of their world. Also they stated in their initial meeting with sg1 after seeing an eagle that all the animals on their world had been killed off. So unless they were bringing them in from somewhere else don't know how they would be hunting.
I do like that idea, the colonies being as different as countries given what we know about them. As for the animal's thing I assume they would have brought some of them to from Tollan to Tollana, as well as Tollana having native wildlife.
by the way, fandom has many many errors, i wouldn't depend on that site for the correct info 100% of the time in my experience it's right about 85% of the time, i also remember the episode when some of the Tollan survived, but of course it was just referenced very vaguely, but the show writers never came back to their story ark, which was a real shame.
but my assumption is they found themselves on some isolated planet or perhaps they found out how to integrate with the Ashen, they were very similar people and had technology that almost mirrored their own, and may not know of SG1's role in knowing their secret for being untrustworthy people who created the sterility vaccine.
Do you remember which episode had a reference to Tollan survivors?
@@sg-24
no i don't, it was so long ago, i would really have to go back and watch them the old fashioned way to find that info sadly.
but i feel it was referenced on the same episode or maybe a few episodes after the Tollan were taken out.
I kind of want them to still be around, since Stargate doesn't exactly have an abundance of significant factions floating about within its universe as it is, so having them still be around and in a state where they might actually be capable off playing a meaningful role in the future events of the series could prove to be a positive thing. Having them retain some surviving hidden colonies would be one way to do that or perhaps another would be to have them living as galatic nomads on board their interstellar ships.
There still the question of whether or not they possess hyperdrive technology, with the answer to this question being a significant factor in determining how and in what form they might have been able to survive. Still even if their ships don't use hyperdrives there are still plenty of other ways to explain how they might have been able to survive. But yeah in conclusion anything added to help fill in and populate the Stargate universe does appear likely to be a generally positive thing, at least from what i can tell that is.
You know I didn't realize how much I agree with this idea until I read it. Stargates has a very bi-polarity universe. Where really only two factions really matter, and I defiantly prefer the multi polarity setting like we see in Star Trek.
They could play a role similar to the role of Genii in Stargate Atlantis, where the heroes, nor the viewers can never be sure what to expect out of their petty, arrogant politics and where their presence can change the course of events.
A new SG TV show could carry on their story quite readily, 2024 marks 19 years since Anubis was taken off the material plane, locked in the infinite battle. More than enough for a small version of their grandeur to have been rebuilt.
I’m not 100% sure the planet Tollana even still exists. The capital, planet, and seemingly only city on the planet, is wiped out, the Go’a’uld open the fire on all of the fault lines, and of course, there was a storeroom of incredibly powerful phase shifting bombs. I haven’t watched the episode in a long time, so I may be a misremembering, but I kind of feel like maybe they sent the phase, shifting bombs to the core of their own planet to wipe it out? I’m probably misremembering that.
In any event, I don’t think they had any colony worlds, Jack clearly says they were wiped out, and regardless of anybody’s view on extended canon, I think, generally speaking, the actual show itself always has to be taken as primary canon, and then anything in the deuterocanon contradicting that is probably Just not true. No offense if anybody is really attached to it. I don’t mean to be insulting. It’s just the way I think.
I think the garbled message at the end of the episode is deliberately garbled, which would have allowed the show to bring the Tolan back if they had a good reason to do so, But assume they are dead if a good reason to re-introduce them never came up.
In other words, I think they are extinct unless the TV show writers decided to bring them back, which clearly they never did before the end of the series.
You know I never consider the phase bomb going into the core. I don’t think that’s what happened. But it an interesting idea.
The Tollan did have ships. In the episode “One hundred days”, Col. O’Neill was to be picked up by the Tollan in 6 months by a Tollan ship.
Which is incredibly slow if you think about it, at least compared to some of the other races later in the show.
Imagine if Col. Carter had a chance to actually work on Tollen tech.
What’s sad is was so close, or was given a small glimpse. She did say something about not being able to refuse engineer the tech. But imagine if she had the time to properly study it.
The Stargate on Tollana is a very flimsy gate and would have been easy to destroy. This was mentioned in the first episode where SG1 visited Tollana.
I may have to re-check that episode b/c I don’t remember them saying their gate was flimsy.
I think any Tollan survivors would double down on their isolationism. They would find planets to hide on and develop a society that relies more on stealth than weapons tech to defend themselves. RE the stargate - well, even if it was destroyed, the could probably build a new one. Again. The ancient who descended built one from items on ebay. In the final view, it doesn't really matter as, except for removing the snake from Sharra, they were not helpful. Perhaps the Nox aided them in using stealth, as they had developed communications with them. Thanks for the fun video.
Thank you for the comment. Some pipe have theorized that the Tollan went to live with the Nox, which is why we stopped hearing from them too.
To me, the Tollans were never really that interesting except for their technology, which existed in the story solely to showcase how wondrous it was and to keep any of it out of Earth hands. I found Trevell to be haughty and arrogant, while Narim was emotionless and bland. Their final appearance in the episode "Between Two Fires" was just the setting where Tanith revealed that he was taking orders from someone much more powerful (Anubis, of course). To be honest, I wasn't especially broken up about the loss of Tollana, but I did like how it set up the next Big Bad Guy for SG-1 to face and just how insanely powerful he was. It might've evoked a bit more sympathy from me if the Tollans hadn't been so stuffy and flatly monotonous. But this is just my little opinion. There are always others. Great video, though! 😎👍
Bunker mentality probably would have had the remaining Tollans outside Tollana keep themselves hidden. This was I believe also towards the introduction of Atlantis so my money is that the showrunners simply did not have the time and resources especially after MGM started going belly up.
What still irks me is that the destruction of the Tollans was indirectly caused by the Ancients that allowed Anubis to retain technologies he should never have been able to figure out ALL to "teach" Oma a lesson.
Yes the Ancients, letting an entire galaxy suffer, just to teach a lesson.
I'm going to have to rewatch this this series, because I'm wondering how Tollan sent a message to the SGC without a Stargate.
I believe they did it with a satellite.
When it comes to the gate, I would expect Anubis could well have put a classic stargate on the planet to replace the destroyed one. Even though he has lots of ships, stargates are still the fastest way to travel.
Huh that makes me wonder. Where does the Tollana gate fall in the gate hierarchy. We know never gates take precedent over older ones, for example if you dial a planet with a Pegasus and Milky Way gate on it the Pegasus one gets the wormhole. But the Tollan’s gate was made by them/Nox, so would it even register in the system at all as a new gate?
I was really hoping that carter and Norim would have hooked up…. Not the ugly Cop haha
It would’ve been cool if the Tauri had got their hands on at least one cannon to backwards engineer and have the Asgard help make it more powerful. Imagine those on the tauri warships and possibly Atlantis as a secondary option to the drones and chew through some wraith hive ships.
That does sound pretty cool. Kind of makes you wonder why they didn’t, especially since I think they did get the designs. Sure they couldn’t replicate it, but with the Asgard core anything is possible.
much of the Tollan homeworld locations were filmed at Simon Fraser University, located on Burnaby Mountain, in Vancouver, where the series was shot, primarily the main large courtyard in front of the SFU library building and the Quad, 4 sided building with a small green park inside.
I know a lot of places got shot there, but for me it shall always been Tollan.
@@sg-24 Caprica in BSG, Some Star Trek TNG episodes, and some Andromeda episodes. Does anybody have any others?
I can imagine that the campus must be a pilgrimage site for sci-fi nerds.
I believe any possible survivors are in several different places. Also the in The system Lords and Anubis have been defeated. To go back to tolana would be just rescue and happened probably in the background of other operations.
The Tollans were in fact not much more evolved than Tau'ri. They cracked some neat tech, but have not truly evolved like the other four great races. We could say that they were arrogantly playing above their league.
Btw.: I always liked how the same university campus, which is used as "Tollana" in SG1 also appears as the "Caprica City" in Battlestar Gallactica.
Love that first part about how the Tollan were not as evoked as they thought.
Also that same campus was used in Andromeda. Not as big as the other two, but just another one to add to the list.
Cool, I always assumed they were completely wiped out in the show. I think it does make sense that they have some offworld colonies or outposts but it does bring up the question as to why they wouldn't have contacted anyone after the attack. Especially since in the show Anubis was eventually dealt with, so you would think any occupation on Tollana would have more or less fallen at that point, so anyone left would be able to come out of hiding and seek help.
The only real explanation for the colonies not contacting Earth I can think of is maybe they didn't know about them. We often view other races/cultures in the show as a monolith, but it would probably be a lot more stratified and complex in reality. So maybe only certain high up officials or specific government personnel had any real knowledge about the dealing w/ Earth. And they may have all died. Even the colonies might not have been privy to the information. After all on earth the Stargate is a top secret military project, so anyone using it would be briefed about a lot of what was going on around it. But on Tolan it is just a fancy bus. People could use it to travel around possibly w/o knowing about any of the diplomatic actions taken by the government.
I can see wanting to get rid of the Tollan from a story telling narrative, but I'd disagree with using it as an argument for their destruction; lets not forget the Nox, they were a powerful, advanced, and pacifist people too and they are still around, and the Asgardians were disadvantaged greatly when Anubis took the memories of Thor to gain the advantage they gained over the Tollan in the first place yet continued to pull through until S10.
*The board game said an entire colony survived....so yeah.*
Really?! Do you have a link or anything. Never had a chance to play it.
@sg-24 Yep! There are 3 planets listed under Tollan occupation: Tollan, Tollana, and Pellor. Pellor is labeled as an "outer colony".
I see, I wonder if the board game was made in part with the old RPG books. I’ll have to look into this further. But thank you for letting me know. 👍
@@sg-24 No problem! Pellor has an entry on the Stargate Fandom wiki that references the novels and states that they retrieved over a dozen survivors from Tollana after the Go'uld attack. It also states they were in the "cybernetic age" of technology with an FTL ship and no stargate and that Pellor became the new capital.
With the gate destroyed, how did they communicate?
I think they said it was from either a Tollan or Tok’Ra satellite.
200th like! Woot!
Also, aren’t Ion cannons used for disabling ships, not destroying them?
I always found that weird
Oh no they blow them out of the sky. It’s actually kind of weird now that you bring up the idea of disabling them as why the Tollan never did that.
@@sg-24 nah, what I ment was, in a lot of other sci-fi, an Ion cannon basically acts like an EMP. (Like the big cannon in Empire Strikes Back)
@jonwalker8945 oh I see. Yeah kind of weird, but maybe it was just them using a fancy science like name.
100% I don't care, they weren't dumb enough not to put a few of that bombs onto missiles and fire them at the Goa'uld motherships destroying them. An there ships. Which allowed them to get passed the Goa'uld fleet.
I bet most of the Tolland went to the Nox homeworld.
I did see a theory on that recently. It’s an interesting idea, as it would explain why the Nox stopped showing up.
"Ah yes the less advanced..." "We're the same damn race"- Jack O'Neil probably
Yeah he switch names and decided to go to Earth and change his love interest.
I once wrote a fanfiction with the Tolan survivor's.
May I ask what happened?
Now the Tollan ships were commented about many times that they were slower than Goa’uld or Tok’ra vessels. Window of Opportunity, I think.
I don’t know if it was said they were slower, but just as a comparison they were.
@@sg-24 I just remember a comment by Daniel that the Tollan would be able to have a ship “swing by” wherever it was “sometime in the next year”. I can’t remember the episode
@michaelkotcher5491 I know the episode, the one we’re Jack gets stuck on a planet, but I can’t remember the name either.
Do you have any evidence or sources that is considered cannon in the franchise?
I supposed that depends on what you count as canon. For the old RPGs most agree no. Worlds was supposed to be. Everyone was behind the idea, even the writers of the show, but it fell off when the studio closed. As for the new one it’s in a weird place. Again a lot of people do t consider stuff outside the shows as canon, but MGM stepped in to review the book before it was releases, giving their approval. If you consider none of that stuff canon then no.
Ok...what do i think...
Well, after watching all of your video, i think...
You covered it all and i have nothing to say except this silly comment in lieu of it.
Well done my good sir.
Chapeau...Chapeau.
You had me in the first half.
Tollan were Switzerland of Galaxy. Advanced and able to defend themselves, but too small and with no capacity to build the empire. I'm sure there are some off world outposts. While I believe they were underutilized as a fraction and like Ashen, deserved longer story arc - maybe interaction between the two - wiping them out, like Asgard, was bold and good decision by screenwriters. Anyway, with fall of Tollana, their civilisation was decisively broken.
Will try to watch it later when i have a minute but i always thought it would have been a great idea to have the surviving tollan join the tokra to make them create a new blended identity. Make two united and feel like they could actually become an actual threat to the gould if only as a power that could rival one or two mid system lords.
That is a really interesting idea. A lot of people have been going for a Tollan the new villains angle, but I think it makes more sense for them to team up with old allies.
@@sg-24thank you for the reply. I thought it would have given a feeling of creating a new alliance council with the "tolkera" and the free Jaffa nation making a new alliance. All they need was the two factions to become one and have the tokra queen or new queen take her place to keep their numbers up. I never understood otherwise how the tokra could have such a major city after the end of the movie. ive always figured there were at this point being only a few hundred to a couple of thousand since they can't easily replace their numbers. Having willing hosts and a queen would fix that for me in my mind at least.
@seanfarrell6386 I do like this idea. But I’m iffy on the new queen thing. I think the issue for the Tok’Ra was that they had no queen.
@@sg-24 but wouldn't that mean they would eventually go extinct without one or do they have another method of reproduction?
@seanfarrell6386 right and if I remember why that’s why they pulled out of the alliance with Earth and the Jaffa. They couldn’t afford to replace any losses. There actually a book that deals with this subject, invoking the Tok’Ra time traveling to find a queen.
I wonder on a tech level, I wonder how close the tollan were to the ancients.
Hard to say. They were able to produce tech that would be just as advanced as Ancients (such as ion cannons). But ship wise they seemed to be far behind what Ancients had.
@@sg-24 This is true. Although there was a big time gap between Earth finding Tolans and seeing their tech and not understanding how it works, and Earth finding any tech from the ancients, it did seem like SGC couldn't comprehend how the Tollan tech seemed to work at all but never got that same level of questions about ancient tech. Could be they had a better understanding at the time they had found ancient tech, or maybe the tollans have a totally different way of doing tech than earthlings or ancients and this could limit things like advances in space travel.
@armedbobery4879 I’m tempted to say the later. I remember Sam saying that Tollan tech had no mechanical moving parts. I’m sure with time they could have understood it, but it could be that it was different enough that it led to some advancements and some delays.
i beleive that the tollan were in fact beat to submission but not wiped out anubis probily decimated most of the colonies as he found them but some probily built underground or cloaked facilities that survived just they had no means of beating him so went turtle and bunkered in so they could build there own tech up again and re-enter the galactic stage possibly as a powerfull ally of the tauree
Someone did have a similar idea, but they went with the the Tollan going Imperium of Man on everyone.
Any new goauld hosts from those technologically gifted survivors?
Officially no, but someone else in comments did point that out and how horrifying it would be.
Why couldn't some of them use there phase/fase tech, so that the bombs had noneffect on them?
Phase through a mountain where a cave is to hid from the attack. Something at least.
Maybe some did, which is where some of the survivors come from. As for why more didn’t I’m not sure. Though I am wondering if that tech was just something not available to the wider public
I would have thought that the Tollan (not in huge numbers) could have used their phase technology sink into vast underground tunnels under the surface of their world. I would hope that Narum would have lead many of his people to the vast underground caverns. I think once they are able to build some starships (which would be even superior to the Asguard). They would leave what is left of Tollana and maybe even visit Earth to share their tech with SG1.
Some have comment about that, I’m not sure why they didn’t use the phase shift. Maybe it wasn’t available to the general public?
To be honest I don’t think Tollan ships were better than the Asgards. The Asgard regularly traveled between galaxies, while the Tollans seem to take weeks/months to travel between two points in one galaxy. Granted we don’t know the distance between these points, but still.
If they ever reboot the Stargate series again, this would be a good story to explores an episode. That and the Furlings…
It always comes back to the Furlings. I’m actually working a on video about them now.
If there are survivors, especially on a colony world, they might have become even more isolationist than before. They might have moved again to a place where even Anubis couldn't find them.
From a planet without a sun in interstellar space to constructing a hollow world between galaxies in a place where it is unlikely that they would be found. Though the whole affair might have invigorated their scientific interests gearing towards new ways to hide and defend themselves.
They might turn out like the Vanir, the Asgard of the Pegasus galaxy. Which could have gotten interesting if either were followed up.
That is an interesting comparison.
It's Earth has changed since Atlantis City and Asgard technology was more successful than tollan
They had enough ships to move their entire population and rebuild every city. It's ridiculous to think they didn't have other colonies and outposts. The problem is, that once the served their purpose in the story line, they needed to disappear. Once they were attacked and harmed by the Goa'uld, their colonies, who would have already known about the threat, would have been on a more warlike standing. The Stargate story line did not want another powerful group of humans. They only worked as long as they were passive. They also knew that the Goa'uld were the enemies of humans. It's reasonable that they could take the path of isolation, but they would have been constantly monitoring the Goa'uld, and would be updating their technology in case the Goa'uld did too. Their society was designed to the fit the story, and it is really one of those sci-fi civilization that would be too stupid to exist as described.
Another major hole in their destruction story, was that they cooperated with Anubis and then because of a minor sabotage, Anubis destroyed them. If Anubis had any intelligence at all, he would have just made them construct new weapons. He would have destroyed them eventually in any case, but he would have waited until they built more weapons and sent one to earth. Anubis was the worst (as in poorly constructed) villain in the entire series. The stories worked because most of the other characters were pretty good.
The Goa'uld attacked them just a year or so earlier, and destroyed almost all of their defense systems. That would have caused a major reevaluation of their supposed invulnerability, and they would have been in the process of taking actions to protect their population. Writers make civilizations monumentally stupid to fit a story.
2:18 Savage reply from Sam here. "Yes you did, you could have died."
I mean, to be fair to Sam there are plenty of ways around the situation.
once they had star ships they should have gone back to the planets they got cut off from like the one that was underground or the one where they were put in little cages
Funny enough in the new RPG book the people who were stuck underground came back.
Perhaps Anubis brought a new stargate to Tollana.
Probably, makes sense given how the Goa’uld love to use those things. Not that I blame them.
Having one ion Cannon is useless to cover earth and to be honest...the tolans literally ripped off Earth with that deal.
But...since they had one, they could have installed it on the Prometheus or dedalus, or if not capable to install on a ship transfer it to Atlantis ..., but it was never mentioned again.
You know I might need to look into that. I don’t think they ever gave it to Earth, but offered one.
The worst outcome would be for them to be captured alive to become hosts.
For the galaxy or them as individuals?
@@sg-24 both
@wpatrickw2012 fair enough.
There are in my fanfiction.
I would say they went dark. after the loss of both the original home world and then the second one. we know how arrogant they can be and i could see them thinking its just best to hold up and hide
Tolen can shift themselves out of phase and then can't be hurt
You know people have mentioned that. Not sure why the never did that.
Well, as far as the RPG books are concerned they aren't cannon to the show, what we see from the show is that it considers them completely destroyed. I also don't think Anubis used their tech as it would have been useful on multible occasions, probably because he sees ancient tech as being superior. He could also just use them as hist or pull info from their minds if he needed too. But I recall watching a scifi short interview thing which stated that the producers did think there were Tolan survirors or worlds, probably where the books got the idea from, and at that time hadn't done anything with the idea. Considering Prometheus was not exactly reliable at the time so the only ships they had access to were Tokra and were or would be on the mend around this time, I don't think there was a way to write this in. But I think the bunker idea is what would happen. After all, it wasn't until the Tolan started to involve itself in interstellar politics more that their new homeworld was destroyed, so they may have chosen to remain in isolation and hidden. But I would have liked to see Tolan survivors idea explored on screen, especially as Earth got more reliable ships.
That’s really interesting that there was an interview in which they said that.
@sg-24 Yes, it was in one of those behind the scene things which SciFi channel used to do. I was even about to add that, the idea stayed alive until Narim's actor was cast as Wier's boyfriend so they assumed that they were going to leave them extinct. However they did think they could bring them back in another form in season 9 or 10, but by that time ScFi's parent company NBC Universal was looking for cuts, and so SG-1 was cancled.
I did see some people comment about that. If they did bring the Tollan and Narim back how would that work with Weir boyfriend.
No matter how arrogant Tollan's were why wouldn't they have space ships?
I mean they did, just not good ones
Imagine Tolan tech in the hands of rhe Lucian Alliance...
Yeah that is super scary. Though enough I keep coming up with this imagine in my head of them using the phase shift to rob banks
*SG1 goes back to the planet to find the Tollan survivors, living in caves basically bombarded back to the Stone Age.*
Tollan: "You know, we could really do with some help."
Jack O'Niell: "I'm sorry. We don't help *lesser* people."
As cool and cold a line, I don’t think even Jack would say that.
The Thollans ARE humans so without access to their civilization, they are just humans. If they cannot propregate their culture, they are gone. They would not be Thollands anymore.
Maybe there isn't an easy way for them to get from their other colonies to earth. We don't know much about them so maybe they are terraformed worlds that don't have a star gate on them preventing any real movement of the survivors to regroup with Earth.
There is some lore on them that I didn’t add for this video (later one planned) but if I recall these colonies were originally cut off. So I don’t think they had stargates.
"Wiped out by the Gould" could be a figure of speech by Jack O'Neill to get the point across that their race underwent catastrophic population decline. Similar to how people referred to the American Chestnut as extinct after the chestnut blight.
Another idea would be Tollan survivors as antagonists. Maybe they blame getting involved with Earth for bringing their homeworld to Anubis' attention?
That is something I thought about when writing the script for this. Maybe we could say the Grace alien ship was a Tollan ship. And they were defending their territory from outsiders.
I’d always wished they were around in the time of end of SG1 end of Season 3 Atlantis time, so we could go there and say, “um our technology, weapons and ships are for more advanced than yours and it’s our law to not share our technology with primitive and less advanced cultures” 😂
Lol
The Tollan probably exist in smaller numbers than the rebel Asgard seen in later Atlantis episodes. They might control a few planets, but those planets have at most one or two hidden outposts or bunkers with populations in the dozens. At the absolute most they have a few thousand Tollan living on the Nox planet in one invisible sky city. Think it's called Little Tollana, Tollatown, or Tollberg?
Tollatown 😂.
As for the rest I’m not so sure. Someone in comments of my previous videos said they had a higher population, but I can’t remember the number.
Hi, given their technological advancement cloning may be a method of generating a working population and then move back to a traditional method of mating and diversifying biologically. You see this with androids in StTNG in Picard and for those who can understand the need to be a clone army or workforce with all the rights of the rest of society.
So may possibilities and when faced with the end how far would they go.
Take care M.
@markeh1971 that definitely an option, since if they move out of it fast enough that can avoid the issue the Asgard had. Not sure if they have the tech left to clone people, but I can see them trying.
@@sg-24 Hi, manpower would be an issue, the tech to clone is known by the Asgar, they are all clones so they have it to create and educate the clones. It just that you can’t keep using clones as a population, you need to mix in fresh DNA which was what Loki was looking for.
If you get the history of the world at times it was touch and go fur us as the ice age reduced numbers. Thank good we bread well!
AI may solve that or just kill us off.
Take care all M
Lets say we colonised mars it has a population of a few thousand it would take them decay's at least and centres at most to develop all the infostructure they need to become self sufficient on mars, about the Tollan colonies without their new home world may not have been able to sustain themselves so they could have been abandoned to join more developed civilisation's
I do like that idea as an explanation for what happened to them.
No. After Goaulds, Replicators and Ori all ruined the milky way galaxy, there is close to ZERO chance any Tolan comunity did survive. Unless they somehow managed to reach the NOX homeworld, right after the Anubis take-over. Maybe had some ships out of their star system at the time of the attack, but almost everything left there was destroyed. Possibly dozens of people managed to run trought the Tolan Stargate, but WHERE is the question.
Like you said the Nox are the best option. Some have been theorizing that if some did make it to the Nox the Nox agree to got into more isolationism.
@@sg-24 I kinda fear, that after repli-Carter led the Replicators in the Milky way, Nox got eaten. I mean - she knew the level of their tech and roughly position of their planet (according the stargate adress to get on their planet). Would explain, why no another Nox spotting was reported...