I can mostly agree with this. Imo, the best thing to do whenever you play with new people is just talk with them. What do they play? What do they dislike? What cards do they think should be banned? Personally, I don’t hate land removal, but other people do. Personally I don’t like winter orb but maybe someone is fine with playing against it. I just feel like people police shit too hard. Just have fun and figure out what works best with your pod.
I feel it’s a symptom of competitive 1v1 players entering a more social/multiplayer format and the lines between Cedh and casual blur more often. Also, I have watched people say “just a precon” and steam roll late game because everyone left them alone.
Rule 0 introduces more issues than it solves and in fact it makes communities less communicative and more toxic. If a card is legal, it is LEGAL. Who is banning it? And why? Because that person doesn't like that card? The most healthy thing is allowing cards that are legal, too be indeed legal
Playing cards with a high salt score depend on the power level you want to play at, if your are playing high power decks, I really don't see the problem in running pieces like cursed totem or collector ouphe, since most of the time this is the only thing that will stop people from winning with a combo on turn 4/5
My playgroup and i got heavy into cedh. It got a little stale after a while so we took a list of cedh staples and blanket banned them, made new decks adhering to said list and its worked a treat. Most fun weve had playing in ages. No unwritten rules, anything goes as long as u adhere to the banlist 🎉
@@errrzarrr Let's say we blanket banned the cedh staples in casual edh. This would encourage creative deck building. (Sol ring would be banned so people would have to build more creatively for example. Thats one slot free from the auto include.) Lower the barrier for entry (no one playing a £200 Cards like mana crypt or £40 dockside in their power lvl '7') No more vague house rules and unwritten laws. (No more feel bad moments, everyone just trying to make the best deck they can within the constraints.) Unify house rules in LGS's. (No worry that your deck might not be legal from lgs to lgs) Create a clear definition of edh to cedh. (If people want to player the strongest Cards they simple play cedh. If they want to play obscure jank they play casual edh. No need for vague power levels)
This has always been a EDH paradox to me when it comes to CEDH: how boring the games are since everyone uses the 1% staples so you basically have 10 cards different in the deck and the rest is staples and interaction LOL ;p
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 it has it's pros and cons, that's for sure. The way I see it, however, is that if you can make a janky card work in cedh it feels all the more rewarding!
I've played in a game (a non-cEDH) where one of the 2 tryhards at an LGS brought a Jorn stax cEDH deck which has Stasis (because the 2 tryhards are the worst sort of Spikes); it was unfun on many levels.
@@shaylic3795 It's a paid pod, so there's no discussion to be had other than the fact that it's the non-cEDH pod and you can't have a 2-card combo involving your commander as one of the cards. However, one of the tryhards hasn't been there in several weeks, and the Jorn stax guy has kinda chilled a little bit as a result.
9:57 isn't this single play already "a story", though? What happens after tthe boil? Everyone scoops and leaves? Or do you have a whole other half of the game with a different dynamic? If you watch some channels that show commander games, almost every game is kind of the same stuff happening again and again, only with slightly different pieces. It really starts to look kinda like a board game, but I mean this in a bad way. MTG is more complex than any (or almost any) board game, removing some of its most unique game pieces and lines only serves to make it more boring. I think we could just as well flip your arguments around. Maybe if your fun hinges on having the same kind of game every time without being disturbed, that is something you should expect from your pod, not from the whole format, or random strangers.
Why do you even look at the bann list when you play casually? Just talk to your friends what experience you are after and then try to follow what you agreed upon. If one player plays a Deck that dos not fit the playgroup, then communicate that! Are you playing Casual EDH with random strangers? If you have a group of friends to play EDH with I would assume before you even buy/build a deck you talk about it and ask for the opinion of the others and what changes can be made to better fit your environment. There will always be CEDH no matter what card you bann. There will always be a small number of Tier 1 decks and if someone is willing to play the “best legal deck” in a casual pod, then that person will always be able to do so, regardless of what the bann list looks like.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it is not the individual cards that should be banned but the combination strategy associated with those cards that should be banned. What if you ran Grisselbrand in a janky demon tribal battlecruiser deck with Lord of the Pitt? What if Thassa’s Oracle was in a deck without Ad nauseum and was just in an artifact merfolk deck? I have Gollos as my five color Maze’s end gates commander. It hasn’t won a single game. Just run good cards in bad decks to balance them out. Sometimes bad decks need good cards to keep them afloat in MtG. Run Iona, but you have to hard cast her and you can’t put Painter’s Servant in the deck. There, problem solved.
We have a guy at our LGS that breaks out a well tuned deck against new players with precons and we stopped that nonsense. People I’ve noticed don’t have a Rule 0 conversation. Ive had to walk away from a pod because the people seemed toxic and didn’t want to disclose how their deck functioned. I always tell people how many turns it takes me to win with my best hand and the sort of strategy I’m going for. And I try to match the vibe. I don’t have a ton of super tuned decks. One of super tuned decks is theft. Because if someone is playing broken extra turn spells or trying to sneak in a blightsteel colossus then I’m definitely going to help my self to their buffet.
I was just talking to my buddy about how everyone hating land destruction, is a LARGE reason why green is so good in casual edh. So its ok for the green player to have 10 lands on turn 5, but its not ok to stop that strategy. Its ok to stop someones combo piece, its ok to board wipe to stop the player who goes wide with token creatures, its ok to destroy mana rocks, its ok to destroy mana dorks, its ok to stop any players strategy except for land ramp? This makes green ridiculously strong in casual edh as you literally arent able to stop the ramp which is a major part of green. You could also potentially just make a deck that wins off of lands which would probably not do that well in cedh, but would excel in casual edh, because no one is going to stop your win con due to this "no destroying land" rule.
I feel like people don't really understand the land destruction argument. Because land destruction is important. Mass land destruction is when things get frustrating. If everyone's lands are getting nuked that is just going to cause games to drag on. Targeted land destruction does need to become more accepted.
Honestly, relative power levels are the only thing I bother caring about when it comes to Rule 0- I don't want to take a modified PreCon against cEDH power levels, but even then I understand that two decks that are at the same relative power level will not be balanced against each other- some strategies and builds are going to inherently shit all over other strategies and builds. If I'm playing a low-to-the-ground aggressive deck, its going to maul most combo decks. Part of the game is understanding that fairness is rare- even two identical decks played against each other can have better draws where one blows out the other- and that skill comes from understanding how to tips odds in your favor, through deck building, good play decisions, and even just having a good attitude towards losing. I've played goofy little jank/meme decks and I don't demand people modify their decks to make it fair, I just understand that I may get to do something funny and then I'll probably die horribly. I've played high-powered, ultra-consistent decks and understand that it can make me a target. And I've seen people bring their 9-10 cEDH deck and get stomped because someone with a 6 had a counterspell and open mana at the right time. Just play the game, enjoy yourself, and learn to learn from the game and your local meta.
The commander banlist really is a joke, When you want to build a cedh deck, the easiest thing to do is to go the legacy banned list / vintage restricted list and pick up all of those cards that are legal in commander, since those clearly are too powerful. Does this work always? no. Does it get you a very strong deck? yes, especially if you play a good value commander and shove in thoracle, dockside and breach, at that point, as long as you have a stable mana base + tutors you will win a decent amount of games
I respect this channel a lot because of the banlist opinions. Anytime you mention things should obviously be banned you get shouted down and the rules committee shirking their responsibilities and enabling it don't help
As someone who uses a mana crypt and swaps it around between every single deck I have, that’s nonsense. Mana Crypt is NOT easy to obtain for everyone, or even the majority.
150 bucks is not easy to obtain, its easy for people with a lotta free money, but most causal players cant be dropping 150 on a card. its like saying a tesla is easy to obtain, it is, if you have a fuckton of excess money.
@@daltronius the comment we are both replying to is lamenting the way people play commander on mtgo, since mana crypt is easy to obtain, for an example. i agree that the crypt is hard to get in paper, but based on the comment above, the power level discussion sounds a lot worse playing fictional cards.
I've played both Yugioh for 13 years and MTG for 10, and it always shocks me how unwilling MTG is to ban cards. I know people at WotC and EDH players don't want a massive banlist like Yugioh has, but there are all there these soft-banned cards due to rule 0. I feel that Rule 0 is ineffective and if there is an unfun or broken card, it should be banned. I think that any card with AT LEAST a 2.00 or higher on the salt score should be banned
generally speaking, that's because the people making the banlist for commander aren't an actual ruling body. and because it's supposed to be a casual format. you aren't playing for money so everything goes and it's up to playgroups to say otherwise, because everyone has a different understanding of what is fun and what should be allowed. all in all i'm of the belief there should be no banlist. because every group is different. sure, that butchers cedh but honestly if they have an issue with the banlist being abolished they make their own banlist since their intending to be a competitive take on the format.
"all in all i'm of the belief there should be no banlist." I AGREE! What I'm saying is if the rules committee has a banlist, then they should update the banlist more than once every few years
@@priinceoftiime its not even a real banlist tbh, its more of a vibes check. they even say to take the banned cards as guidelines of what else shouldnt be used.
@@DarkDiamondInc "These cards are not legal without prior agreement from the other players in the game, and may steer your playgroup to avoid other, similar cards." I've never read this part of the commander website before, thank you for pointing that out to me!
Me after laying MTG for over half my life: The game is broken and that in itself is the fun. If you get pub stomped after a quick 15 minute game just excuse yourself and find another group to play with. FNM's playgroups as a whole are pretty good at weeding out the power pumper players and softly forcing them to play with the other power pumper pusher uppers, like I recommend that you even ask these try-hards to try one of your own decks so they can experience the power lvl your play group is comfortable with if you have to play with them and are already known to play ''HIGH POWER''. Personally I think CEDH is a big enough to leave the nest and have it's own ban lists to ''casual EDH'' after playing EDH for the last 10+ years and only seeing CEDH grow. Also me after playing MTG for over half my life hot take: Catastrophe is underrated as a win con; your behind blow up the creatures, your ahead blow up the lands and solidify your dominance! ;p LOL
You mean to tell me that players are finally noticing that rule 0 is awful and don’t work? Oh gee golly gosh, it’s almost like me and some other people have been pointing it out for years only to be ignored.
No. Pre-game conversations are where people discuss these 'unwritten' rules before they play. In this way the rules aren't 'unwritten' anymore and become shared, and people can opt in or out.
@@RaiderhornBAR Pre-game discussions are better served for established playgroups that you know you’ll play with for more than a single session, and much like explaining a bad take you kind of get tired of explaining your ground rules to every set of 2-3 new faces you’ll probably never see again. Assuming you can find a game. Secondly, even if pre-game discussions are held not everyone has or wants to build more than one list for every kind of mystery table they may come across, then if the discussion goes south it may mean that the deck you wanted to play may not be able to do what it wants. Lastly the rule 0 conversation is still merely guidelines for the game itself and not actual rules, and this means that they can be broken at any time making the discussion moot.
@@ThePencilWizard I see. It would seem to me that the tiredness comes from lots of exposure to different players and playgroups, but maybe you have a different idea. Fortunately people don't have to do a conversation and could just share their deck list and make decisions thereof. That functionality has existed for a few months now on SpellTable too, to input a link in their name heading. If people ask for clarity, which they are entitled to, or opt out or ask for a change, which it has been apparent that this hinges on the honesty of the players, that can be infringed upon, you're right. It's indicative of being, quite simply, a matter of talking about it, of which not everyone is good at either, quite frankly. Now I don't know where the idea that it's supposed to be fool-proof came from, if it was thought at all, it never was nor do I think that is its objective, but I think it's also quite alright for people to be skeptical and not 'jump on' with the clamour for such a solution. It's possible to have conversation be abused, and we know this too with its opposite. No one has disputed that. But as far as I'm concerned, if people discuss beforehand and there is lying, or selective dishonesty, or the rules are broken like you said, supposing there were any, for whatever it may be, that isn't the conversation going south like it's a failure but rather that is its success, and you've found who it is that you might not want to play with or replay with. If we take the purpose of pre-game discussion to be finding out what it is people would like to play, then you're right that it will help established playgroups. I think there are claims which, and not everyone agrees, that it helps in establishing new ones too. This isn't something held only in-person, you can readily find this on SpellTable too with titles such as "High Power No Mox" or "Precon chill" or "EDH 5-6 No Infinite." Some even host open to the public games that are cEDH with no Mox. These are not pre-game discussion per se but they are setting expectations the way a pre-game would, and a further discussion in the lobby would add to that but is certainly not required. And, there are games hosted online as well which don't make any restrictions or requests, and this is generally the case in real life too at locals. There's a surprising number of people who generally accept anything, to the point that, I think, they're the majority. As far as I've found it's more common that others encourage people to do what they want, and are quite thankful to those who actually talk about their decks.
I think we also need a new set of people determining the ban list, bc the current list actually is so short. The longer they skimp on banning cards bc they're too afraid of banning too many, the faster newbies will be pushed away as they witness more and more games ending before they've started.
Like if someone Thassas us turn 3, they might as well have just mugged everyone and left. The only difference is that mugging wastes much less of our time.
You realize that it's the only format that is vintage format that doesn't just run multiple copies of the most broken cards in all history. I'd rather combo every day rather than deal with infinite turn vintage standard. It's also becoming the largest format in magic because of how broken running four copies of a single card can be in a deck nearly half the size.
I can mostly agree with this. Imo, the best thing to do whenever you play with new people is just talk with them. What do they play? What do they dislike? What cards do they think should be banned? Personally, I don’t hate land removal, but other people do. Personally I don’t like winter orb but maybe someone is fine with playing against it. I just feel like people police shit too hard. Just have fun and figure out what works best with your pod.
I feel it’s a symptom of competitive 1v1 players entering a more social/multiplayer format and the lines between Cedh and casual blur more often. Also, I have watched people say “just a precon” and steam roll late game because everyone left them alone.
Rule 0 introduces more issues than it solves and in fact it makes communities less communicative and more toxic.
If a card is legal, it is LEGAL. Who is banning it? And why? Because that person doesn't like that card?
The most healthy thing is allowing cards that are legal, too be indeed legal
Rule 0 is only enforced if every player agrees if not it goes back to default rules
Unfortunately the rules committee doesn't agree. I want a better ban list before I want this commonly accepted
The rules committee isn’t even an official WotC rule maker, so even commander banking’s aren’t official
Playing cards with a high salt score depend on the power level you want to play at, if your are playing high power decks, I really don't see the problem in running pieces like cursed totem or collector ouphe, since most of the time this is the only thing that will stop people from winning with a combo on turn 4/5
10:39 I like this analogy
Thats is why discuss before play, clarify before play!
My playgroup and i got heavy into cedh. It got a little stale after a while so we took a list of cedh staples and blanket banned them, made new decks adhering to said list and its worked a treat.
Most fun weve had playing in ages. No unwritten rules, anything goes as long as u adhere to the banlist 🎉
Why should a non competitive format and fun format should have a ban list from a competitive format? If it is legal, it is legal.
@@errrzarrr
Let's say we blanket banned the cedh staples in casual edh.
This would encourage creative deck building. (Sol ring would be banned so people would have to build more creatively for example. Thats one slot free from the auto include.)
Lower the barrier for entry (no one playing a £200 Cards like mana crypt or £40 dockside in their power lvl '7')
No more vague house rules and unwritten laws. (No more feel bad moments, everyone just trying to make the best deck they can within the constraints.)
Unify house rules in LGS's. (No worry that your deck might not be legal from lgs to lgs)
Create a clear definition of edh to cedh. (If people want to player the strongest Cards they simple play cedh. If they want to play obscure jank they play casual edh. No need for vague power levels)
Who polices that in a playgroup@@errrzarrr
This has always been a EDH paradox to me when it comes to CEDH: how boring the games are since everyone uses the 1% staples so you basically have 10 cards different in the deck and the rest is staples and interaction LOL ;p
@@mr.mammuthusafricanavus8299 it has it's pros and cons, that's for sure. The way I see it, however, is that if you can make a janky card work in cedh it feels all the more rewarding!
I think the general consensus is that you can bring these kinds of cards and decks, but be prepared for people to ask you to pick a different deck.
Just... just play the game, lol. You have to win boardgames, too.
Board games aren’t collector card games with “freedom of expression” as a driving selling point
@@Garl_Vinland well, according to wizards...
If they're not written, they're not rules.
Also, if you get salty about stuff, counter or remove it. It's your fault if you don't and then complain.
I've played in a game (a non-cEDH) where one of the 2 tryhards at an LGS brought a Jorn stax cEDH deck which has Stasis (because the 2 tryhards are the worst sort of Spikes); it was unfun on many levels.
Did you guys discuss your decks before hand?
@@shaylic3795 It's a paid pod, so there's no discussion to be had other than the fact that it's the non-cEDH pod and you can't have a 2-card combo involving your commander as one of the cards. However, one of the tryhards hasn't been there in several weeks, and the Jorn stax guy has kinda chilled a little bit as a result.
9:57 isn't this single play already "a story", though? What happens after tthe boil? Everyone scoops and leaves? Or do you have a whole other half of the game with a different dynamic?
If you watch some channels that show commander games, almost every game is kind of the same stuff happening again and again, only with slightly different pieces. It really starts to look kinda like a board game, but I mean this in a bad way. MTG is more complex than any (or almost any) board game, removing some of its most unique game pieces and lines only serves to make it more boring.
I think we could just as well flip your arguments around. Maybe if your fun hinges on having the same kind of game every time without being disturbed, that is something you should expect from your pod, not from the whole format, or random strangers.
Why do you even look at the bann list when you play casually?
Just talk to your friends what experience you are after and then try to follow what you agreed upon. If one player plays a Deck that dos not fit the playgroup, then communicate that!
Are you playing Casual EDH with random strangers?
If you have a group of friends to play EDH with I would assume before you even buy/build a deck you talk about it and ask for the opinion of the others and what changes can be made to better fit your environment.
There will always be CEDH no matter what card you bann. There will always be a small number of Tier 1 decks and if someone is willing to play the “best legal deck” in a casual pod, then that person will always be able to do so, regardless of what the bann list looks like.
Those no fun cards make for interesting matches if everyone runs them. It can lead to some bizarre and fun late game.
Stasis is my main stax piece in my Jorn $100 cedh deck lmao
As a yugioh player that plays magic commander. All I know is the bazooka.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, it is not the individual cards that should be banned but the combination strategy associated with those cards that should be banned.
What if you ran Grisselbrand in a janky demon tribal battlecruiser deck with Lord of the Pitt?
What if Thassa’s Oracle was in a deck without Ad nauseum and was just in an artifact merfolk deck?
I have Gollos as my five color Maze’s end gates commander. It hasn’t won a single game.
Just run good cards in bad decks to balance them out. Sometimes bad decks need good cards to keep them afloat in MtG. Run Iona, but you have to hard cast her and you can’t put Painter’s Servant in the deck. There, problem solved.
We have a guy at our LGS that breaks out a well tuned deck against new players with precons and we stopped that nonsense. People I’ve noticed don’t have a Rule 0 conversation. Ive had to walk away from a pod because the people seemed toxic and didn’t want to disclose how their deck functioned. I always tell people how many turns it takes me to win with my best hand and the sort of strategy I’m going for. And I try to match the vibe. I don’t have a ton of super tuned decks. One of super tuned decks is theft. Because if someone is playing broken extra turn spells or trying to sneak in a blightsteel colossus then I’m definitely going to help my self to their buffet.
I was just talking to my buddy about how everyone hating land destruction, is a LARGE reason why green is so good in casual edh. So its ok for the green player to have 10 lands on turn 5, but its not ok to stop that strategy. Its ok to stop someones combo piece, its ok to board wipe to stop the player who goes wide with token creatures, its ok to destroy mana rocks, its ok to destroy mana dorks, its ok to stop any players strategy except for land ramp? This makes green ridiculously strong in casual edh as you literally arent able to stop the ramp which is a major part of green. You could also potentially just make a deck that wins off of lands which would probably not do that well in cedh, but would excel in casual edh, because no one is going to stop your win con due to this "no destroying land" rule.
I feel like people don't really understand the land destruction argument.
Because land destruction is important. Mass land destruction is when things get frustrating. If everyone's lands are getting nuked that is just going to cause games to drag on. Targeted land destruction does need to become more accepted.
Honestly, relative power levels are the only thing I bother caring about when it comes to Rule 0- I don't want to take a modified PreCon against cEDH power levels, but even then I understand that two decks that are at the same relative power level will not be balanced against each other- some strategies and builds are going to inherently shit all over other strategies and builds. If I'm playing a low-to-the-ground aggressive deck, its going to maul most combo decks. Part of the game is understanding that fairness is rare- even two identical decks played against each other can have better draws where one blows out the other- and that skill comes from understanding how to tips odds in your favor, through deck building, good play decisions, and even just having a good attitude towards losing. I've played goofy little jank/meme decks and I don't demand people modify their decks to make it fair, I just understand that I may get to do something funny and then I'll probably die horribly. I've played high-powered, ultra-consistent decks and understand that it can make me a target. And I've seen people bring their 9-10 cEDH deck and get stomped because someone with a 6 had a counterspell and open mana at the right time.
Just play the game, enjoy yourself, and learn to learn from the game and your local meta.
And whats your basis for relative powers?
Agree
The commander banlist really is a joke,
When you want to build a cedh deck, the easiest thing to do is to go the legacy banned list / vintage restricted list and pick up all of those cards that are legal in commander, since those clearly are too powerful. Does this work always? no. Does it get you a very strong deck? yes, especially if you play a good value commander and shove in thoracle, dockside and breach, at that point, as long as you have a stable mana base + tutors you will win a decent amount of games
I respect this channel a lot because of the banlist opinions. Anytime you mention things should obviously be banned you get shouted down and the rules committee shirking their responsibilities and enabling it don't help
You see a lot of this stuff in mtgo, especially if you 1 vs 1. Cards aren't 1 billion dollars there. Mana Crypt is easy to obtain, for example.
As someone who uses a mana crypt and swaps it around between every single deck I have, that’s nonsense. Mana Crypt is NOT easy to obtain for everyone, or even the majority.
150 bucks is not easy to obtain, its easy for people with a lotta free money, but most causal players cant be dropping 150 on a card. its like saying a tesla is easy to obtain, it is, if you have a fuckton of excess money.
@@daltroniuson mtgo, mana crypt goes for about fifteen bucks.
@@GellyGelbertson so for a fictional manacrypt yea,.im talking in paper, the way most people play, other than proxies ur not finding one under 150.
@@daltronius the comment we are both replying to is lamenting the way people play commander on mtgo, since mana crypt is easy to obtain, for an example.
i agree that the crypt is hard to get in paper, but based on the comment above, the power level discussion sounds a lot worse playing fictional cards.
I've played both Yugioh for 13 years and MTG for 10, and it always shocks me how unwilling MTG is to ban cards. I know people at WotC and EDH players don't want a massive banlist like Yugioh has, but there are all there these soft-banned cards due to rule 0. I feel that Rule 0 is ineffective and if there is an unfun or broken card, it should be banned. I think that any card with AT LEAST a 2.00 or higher on the salt score should be banned
generally speaking, that's because the people making the banlist for commander aren't an actual ruling body. and because it's supposed to be a casual format. you aren't playing for money so everything goes and it's up to playgroups to say otherwise, because everyone has a different understanding of what is fun and what should be allowed. all in all i'm of the belief there should be no banlist. because every group is different. sure, that butchers cedh but honestly if they have an issue with the banlist being abolished they make their own banlist since their intending to be a competitive take on the format.
"all in all i'm of the belief there should be no banlist." I AGREE! What I'm saying is if the rules committee has a banlist, then they should update the banlist more than once every few years
@@priinceoftiime its not even a real banlist tbh, its more of a vibes check. they even say to take the banned cards as guidelines of what else shouldnt be used.
@@DarkDiamondInc "These cards are not legal without prior agreement from the other players in the game, and may steer your playgroup to avoid other, similar cards." I've never read this part of the commander website before, thank you for pointing that out to me!
If you want more cards banned because you don’t enjoy interacting with them, then you don’t like MTG.
Me after laying MTG for over half my life: The game is broken and that in itself is the fun. If you get pub stomped after a quick 15 minute game just excuse yourself and find another group to play with. FNM's playgroups as a whole are pretty good at weeding out the power pumper players and softly forcing them to play with the other power pumper pusher uppers, like I recommend that you even ask these try-hards to try one of your own decks so they can experience the power lvl your play group is comfortable with if you have to play with them and are already known to play ''HIGH POWER''.
Personally I think CEDH is a big enough to leave the nest and have it's own ban lists to ''casual EDH'' after playing EDH for the last 10+ years and only seeing CEDH grow.
Also me after playing MTG for over half my life hot take: Catastrophe is underrated as a win con; your behind blow up the creatures, your ahead blow up the lands and solidify your dominance! ;p LOL
Reddit having terrible takes - nothing new
You mean to tell me that players are finally noticing that rule 0 is awful and don’t work? Oh gee golly gosh, it’s almost like me and some other people have been pointing it out for years only to be ignored.
No. Pre-game conversations are where people discuss these 'unwritten' rules before they play. In this way the rules aren't 'unwritten' anymore and become shared, and people can opt in or out.
@@RaiderhornBAR Pre-game discussions are better served for established playgroups that you know you’ll play with for more than a single session, and much like explaining a bad take you kind of get tired of explaining your ground rules to every set of 2-3 new faces you’ll probably never see again. Assuming you can find a game.
Secondly, even if pre-game discussions are held not everyone has or wants to build more than one list for every kind of mystery table they may come across, then if the discussion goes south it may mean that the deck you wanted to play may not be able to do what it wants.
Lastly the rule 0 conversation is still merely guidelines for the game itself and not actual rules, and this means that they can be broken at any time making the discussion moot.
@@ThePencilWizard I see. It would seem to me that the tiredness comes from lots of exposure to different players and playgroups, but maybe you have a different idea. Fortunately people don't have to do a conversation and could just share their deck list and make decisions thereof. That functionality has existed for a few months now on SpellTable too, to input a link in their name heading. If people ask for clarity, which they are entitled to, or opt out or ask for a change, which it has been apparent that this hinges on the honesty of the players, that can be infringed upon, you're right. It's indicative of being, quite simply, a matter of talking about it, of which not everyone is good at either, quite frankly. Now I don't know where the idea that it's supposed to be fool-proof came from, if it was thought at all, it never was nor do I think that is its objective, but I think it's also quite alright for people to be skeptical and not 'jump on' with the clamour for such a solution. It's possible to have conversation be abused, and we know this too with its opposite. No one has disputed that. But as far as I'm concerned, if people discuss beforehand and there is lying, or selective dishonesty, or the rules are broken like you said, supposing there were any, for whatever it may be, that isn't the conversation going south like it's a failure but rather that is its success, and you've found who it is that you might not want to play with or replay with.
If we take the purpose of pre-game discussion to be finding out what it is people would like to play, then you're right that it will help established playgroups. I think there are claims which, and not everyone agrees, that it helps in establishing new ones too. This isn't something held only in-person, you can readily find this on SpellTable too with titles such as "High Power No Mox" or "Precon chill" or "EDH 5-6 No Infinite." Some even host open to the public games that are cEDH with no Mox. These are not pre-game discussion per se but they are setting expectations the way a pre-game would, and a further discussion in the lobby would add to that but is certainly not required. And, there are games hosted online as well which don't make any restrictions or requests, and this is generally the case in real life too at locals. There's a surprising number of people who generally accept anything, to the point that, I think, they're the majority. As far as I've found it's more common that others encourage people to do what they want, and are quite thankful to those who actually talk about their decks.
I think we also need a new set of people determining the ban list, bc the current list actually is so short. The longer they skimp on banning cards bc they're too afraid of banning too many, the faster newbies will be pushed away as they witness more and more games ending before they've started.
Like if someone Thassas us turn 3, they might as well have just mugged everyone and left. The only difference is that mugging wastes much less of our time.
Has to be the worst eh channel I've ever come across.
This is honestly a horrible take, commander is such a bad format
You realize that it's the only format that is vintage format that doesn't just run multiple copies of the most broken cards in all history. I'd rather combo every day rather than deal with infinite turn vintage standard. It's also becoming the largest format in magic because of how broken running four copies of a single card can be in a deck nearly half the size.