paraphrasing: “I dont want to play with that combo”, while a relatable sentiment, doesn’t align with the philosophy of rule zero. *Exceptions* to the rules should be agreed upon, not the other way around. That said my heart is with the shop that banned sol ring 😂
I usually gage if I want to play with a group based on their reactions to certain mechanics. No counter spells? This just shows you dont want to play the game. Interacting IS magic
Absolutely. Although in that situation I'd be tempted to play a control build that uses every Commandeer/Narset's Reversal type card along with enough protection and shrouding effects to make every worthwhile spell fizzle. "Whaaaat? You just said no counterspells..."
My group doesn't enjoy counter/control as a strategy, but accurate threat assessment is fine. If I stop your draw or ramp to prevent you playing ita, your overrun is free game
I love the video, but I have one minor nitpick. The cEDH Decklist Database is not a collection of decks that have done well in tournaments or events. Performance in events may be a good cue to how good a deck is, but performance in events is specifically not a criteria we look at when evaluating decks for the DDB. That said, great video!
Correct 👍 I guess it was a bit of a oversimplification cause you could just have a primer for the deck and not win an event. Though most of the lists have some results
I love grenzo too, you really need to be careful about overcommitting to board to beat control decks though it can be hard to do! That’s also a good point about cEDH that I neglected to mention
I dislike rule 0 because I hate having to justify my deck. I'm all for trying to have a general power level so games can be interesting, because blow outs are lame, but casual players are so entitled with what they play against, who they play with, etc. It's what drove me into cEDH and I'm glad I did. Love high power, love faster games. The worst magic experiences I've had are 3 hour long slogfests of commander because everyone is wiping the board but don't have a follow up to win. I think the longest cEDH game I had was 1.5 hours, and even that was plenty.
See my pod is low power games (1-2hrs). We love interesting cards but not ones that dumpster others and basically refuse to board wipe to prevent slogs with no follow up, it's more about targeting evasion or wincons. It's definitely easier to let loose with "no holds barred" tho I agree
Rule 0 exists for established playgroups imo. If you go to game stores and try to rule 0 40 cards and 6 deck archetypes, you're either a new player or a whiny ass baby. I don't think rule 0 should exist at all with random players, having expectations for ANYTHING other than power level is just not based
I just like to say even if it is 1 year late to this video: I want to avoid CEDH like the plague where I live. Because I never heard whinier and louder players in my LGS. I keep hearing stuff like "WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING ME YOU *SWEAR WORDS INSERTED* or *WHY ARE YOU REMOVING MY THING WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO COMBO OFF* etc. Very aggressive loud players.
It's an old video, but I still wanted to leave my thoughts here anyway. I disagree slightly with what you said about keeping Rule 0 brief. Although it's preference, from personal experience, I would have preferred an over-explanation of a deck's win plan, rather than people that are too afflicted with Smol Bean syndrome to the point of severely downplaying their decks. Despite not having played EDH for that long ( approximately 2 and a half years now ), I regret not having talked more to spark discussion among my playgroup. It would have led to less blow-outs that feel like they wasted my time. Despite having more time on my hands than the average EDH player, I still value it greatly. My friends don't always have time, and I like a fun experience. There needs to be a baseline level of trust to keep these conversations brief. So, in short, I think overexplaining is still WAY better than not explaining enough. Lest you have games with players that argue their Enchantress deck is at Precon level, but once you start playing with your unupgraded Precons, the experience is horrible. Or games in which you have players playing Atraxa, the Grand Unifier, that claim their deck is a "seven" or comparable to your deck, but in reality, they do something way more powerful than the rest of you. Once you build enough trust, the over-explanation will go away. Also, a shop that bans Sol Ring? Count me in! lol.
When it comes to infinite combos, I think what some players dislike isn't power level, but the fact that they feel anticlimatic. In my playgroup we are rather experienced players and we don't ban them, but I have witnessed a natural tendency towards not playing them just because games played with no combos have a tendency to be more memorable to us.
Something that improved my saltiness in casual commander was realizing that 90% of commander players lie when they say "we just want everyone to have fun" rather what they mean is "I just want to have fun and I don't like it when people disrupt my fun". So I went from trying to be accommodating and not play the way I tend to (grindy control type game play) and get mad because people removed my stuff (assuming people would accomadate me in kind) to building decks and playing the way I enjoy and rarely getting salty. For me pregame discussions soley exist for me to gauge power level. Also, I looked at cedh a bit but it felt kinda stifling. If you want to win (which is the point) you kind of have to color in the lines and follow the meta which isn't really my bag. However, I really appreciate CEDH's low salt attitude.
I kinda assume cEDH is like Legacy where everyone thinks people win by turn 2 because you have access to so much powerful card but then the combos get interacted on, everybody uses their ressources and you just end up beating each other down with 2/2 that could as well be textless
What about individual cards that represent play ideology? "Banning" as a group, cards like magister sphinx in a slow casual pod makes sense to me. Stuff that dumpsters one player
'Difficult to interact with'. And yet Thoracle is somehow NOT banned despite being borderline impossible to interact with outside of blue, a handful of forced card draw effects, and a hate bear or two. Labman and Jace are perfectly fine as they're permanents that need to be ON THE FIELD and every color can deal with that. Thoracle leaves a triggered ability on the stack.... which almost nothing can interact with.
@@thetrinketmage And in the meantime, the banlist has cards like Coalition Victory which are just... laughably easy to deal with. At an absolute minimum you need 3 lands (anything with dual basic types), an ACTUAL 5 color creature (Transguild Courier is probably the easiest. Creatures like Kenrtih only count for deck building purposes.), AND 3 generic and WUBRG in available mana..... ...at SORCERY speed. Remove ANY of those things and it fizzles. Or, if you happen to be playing blue, just counterspell the 8 MANA SORCERY.
@@Lunamowon That there are worse things does not make Thoracle less bad. It just means that Underworld Breach probably ought to be on the chopping block as well.
@@zackkelley2940 thoracle is as easy to interact with as any other spell. You should just have more interaction in your deck and more ways to deal with thoracle if that's something you're worried about. Thoracle isn't OP. Players just don't know what to do afainst it
All my decks are garbage, so I don't think too much about rule zero. I ask if anyone minds that my deck is super low-powered and that I'm just gonna try some stuff to have fun. They ask if I would be upset if I get blown outta the water. I say "no." We all kiss and then get started on the game...okay, maybe the kissing doesn't happen, but the rest of it is true.
I have met groups who kinda rule zero to their own detriment it is nice that they keep their play group within themselves but at the same time it is quite an isolated group in their own bubble which discourages them to mix with people outside their group and actually get better at the game so it is like using training wheels for too long sort of situation and yea the myth of cedh players are just pubstompers is very muched debunked as we all know how scary of a weapon we carry around not to just join a table of precons just because we wanna win
If they're happy why do they have to get better.? My pod is very isolated from our lgs which is turn 3 combos meta. I could play at that level but I enjoy jank more, as a result we're the go-to group in our town for new players :)
thanks for sharing first of all glad to know that you guys are being welcoming to others new or old to magic and the various intricacies of commander you guys must be a fun bunch to play with~
Look at the colours of your opponents commander ..... that's it. Its a social game context (TM copyright WOTC) haha... be social, "when did you start playing? Good indicator of card pool. unless, more social interaction required brace yourself! What's their occupation? from that one may deduct percentage of disposable income, that'll explain the new guy with the time walk! 4th dimension psychology beyond the game to better position oneself strategically with in the game! wow dare I suggest a genius scheme to combine winning with social interaction !
LOL a shop that bans Sol Ring. I guess I woldn't be playing at that shop, which reminds me of a store locally I won't play at. You lose tournament points for winning before Turn 4, and you also lose points for blowing up lands. I have several issues with this because I play decks that can win before turn 4, and I play land destruction. I don't like a shop telling me I'm going to be punished for playing the game the way it is intended to be played.
If they're trying to cultivate a more casual experience you're right not to go, but that doesn't mean they're in the wrong for it. You've gotta find a pod that fits you well otherwise it could be detrimental to others :)
Those seem WAY more egregious than banning Sol Ring, especially because most decks would probably feel smoother and more fun to play against without it at a casual power level.
Sol ring is a stupid card who should be banned. Completely warps the game around itself and require a t1 answer or just lose. Wotc ar3 just being pussies about it.
5:25 HOW is this a jank combo? These cards all work well in Grenzo and are each useful on their own anyway. This isn't jank, it's just some nice synergy for things you'd probably be running anyway.
Yea I’m saying a pile of cards that’s happens to have a combo in it is not necessarily stronger than a different deck. If any combo has 5+ cards in terms of power it’s more in the jank category but does not mean you shouldn’t run it.
@@thetrinketmage And now we get into a semantic argument about whether this is a 'janky' combo or just 5 cards that have good synergy with each other that just happen to combo together.^^
My problem with cedh is that it’s a pay to win format. Unless your opponents allow you to proxy any cards, which will be salt enduring anyway. No way I’m throwing $1000 into a deck.
paraphrasing: “I dont want to play with that combo”, while a relatable sentiment, doesn’t align with the philosophy of rule zero. *Exceptions* to the rules should be agreed upon, not the other way around.
That said my heart is with the shop that banned sol ring 😂
I usually gage if I want to play with a group based on their reactions to certain mechanics. No counter spells? This just shows you dont want to play the game. Interacting IS magic
Absolutely. Although in that situation I'd be tempted to play a control build that uses every Commandeer/Narset's Reversal type card along with enough protection and shrouding effects to make every worthwhile spell fizzle. "Whaaaat? You just said no counterspells..."
My group doesn't enjoy counter/control as a strategy, but accurate threat assessment is fine. If I stop your draw or ramp to prevent you playing ita, your overrun is free game
I don't personally use counterspells in my decks because I don't like the situationality of them, but I don't have a problem with others running them.
I love the video, but I have one minor nitpick. The cEDH Decklist Database is not a collection of decks that have done well in tournaments or events. Performance in events may be a good cue to how good a deck is, but performance in events is specifically not a criteria we look at when evaluating decks for the DDB.
That said, great video!
Correct 👍 I guess it was a bit of a oversimplification cause you could just have a primer for the deck and not win an event. Though most of the lists have some results
GRENZOOO
I love grenzo too, you really need to be careful about overcommitting to board to beat control decks though it can be hard to do! That’s also a good point about cEDH that I neglected to mention
I dislike rule 0 because I hate having to justify my deck. I'm all for trying to have a general power level so games can be interesting, because blow outs are lame, but casual players are so entitled with what they play against, who they play with, etc. It's what drove me into cEDH and I'm glad I did. Love high power, love faster games. The worst magic experiences I've had are 3 hour long slogfests of commander because everyone is wiping the board but don't have a follow up to win. I think the longest cEDH game I had was 1.5 hours, and even that was plenty.
See my pod is low power games (1-2hrs). We love interesting cards but not ones that dumpster others and basically refuse to board wipe to prevent slogs with no follow up, it's more about targeting evasion or wincons. It's definitely easier to let loose with "no holds barred" tho I agree
Rule 0 exists for established playgroups imo. If you go to game stores and try to rule 0 40 cards and 6 deck archetypes, you're either a new player or a whiny ass baby. I don't think rule 0 should exist at all with random players, having expectations for ANYTHING other than power level is just not based
Yeah I think the banlist should represent what's ok for lgs or pickup games. You don't need it in an established group that talks well
I just like to say even if it is 1 year late to this video:
I want to avoid CEDH like the plague where I live. Because I never heard whinier and louder players in my LGS. I keep hearing stuff like "WHY ARE YOU ATTACKING ME YOU *SWEAR WORDS INSERTED* or *WHY ARE YOU REMOVING MY THING WHEN HE IS ABOUT TO COMBO OFF* etc. Very aggressive loud players.
It's an old video, but I still wanted to leave my thoughts here anyway.
I disagree slightly with what you said about keeping Rule 0 brief. Although it's preference, from personal experience, I would have preferred an over-explanation of a deck's win plan, rather than people that are too afflicted with Smol Bean syndrome to the point of severely downplaying their decks. Despite not having played EDH for that long ( approximately 2 and a half years now ), I regret not having talked more to spark discussion among my playgroup.
It would have led to less blow-outs that feel like they wasted my time. Despite having more time on my hands than the average EDH player, I still value it greatly. My friends don't always have time, and I like a fun experience. There needs to be a baseline level of trust to keep these conversations brief.
So, in short, I think overexplaining is still WAY better than not explaining enough. Lest you have games with players that argue their Enchantress deck is at Precon level, but once you start playing with your unupgraded Precons, the experience is horrible. Or games in which you have players playing Atraxa, the Grand Unifier, that claim their deck is a "seven" or comparable to your deck, but in reality, they do something way more powerful than the rest of you. Once you build enough trust, the over-explanation will go away.
Also, a shop that bans Sol Ring? Count me in! lol.
I appreciate your thoughts.
Thanks I appreciate your comment!
When it comes to infinite combos, I think what some players dislike isn't power level, but the fact that they feel anticlimatic.
In my playgroup we are rather experienced players and we don't ban them, but I have witnessed a natural tendency towards not playing them just because games played with no combos have a tendency to be more memorable to us.
Something that improved my saltiness in casual commander was realizing that 90% of commander players lie when they say "we just want everyone to have fun" rather what they mean is "I just want to have fun and I don't like it when people disrupt my fun".
So I went from trying to be accommodating and not play the way I tend to (grindy control type game play) and get mad because people removed my stuff (assuming people would accomadate me in kind) to building decks and playing the way I enjoy and rarely getting salty. For me pregame discussions soley exist for me to gauge power level.
Also, I looked at cedh a bit but it felt kinda stifling. If you want to win (which is the point) you kind of have to color in the lines and follow the meta which isn't really my bag. However, I really appreciate CEDH's low salt attitude.
I kinda assume cEDH is like Legacy where everyone thinks people win by turn 2 because you have access to so much powerful card but then the combos get interacted on, everybody uses their ressources and you just end up beating each other down with 2/2 that could as well be textless
What about individual cards that represent play ideology? "Banning" as a group, cards like magister sphinx in a slow casual pod makes sense to me. Stuff that dumpsters one player
I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment
'Difficult to interact with'. And yet Thoracle is somehow NOT banned despite being borderline impossible to interact with outside of blue, a handful of forced card draw effects, and a hate bear or two.
Labman and Jace are perfectly fine as they're permanents that need to be ON THE FIELD and every color can deal with that. Thoracle leaves a triggered ability on the stack.... which almost nothing can interact with.
Yea Oracle should probably be banned it’s a bit wild that it’s still legal…
@@thetrinketmage And in the meantime, the banlist has cards like Coalition Victory which are just... laughably easy to deal with.
At an absolute minimum you need 3 lands (anything with dual basic types), an ACTUAL 5 color creature (Transguild Courier is probably the easiest. Creatures like Kenrtih only count for deck building purposes.), AND 3 generic and WUBRG in available mana.....
...at SORCERY speed.
Remove ANY of those things and it fizzles. Or, if you happen to be playing blue, just counterspell the 8 MANA SORCERY.
Thoracle meta is way more healthy than flashhulk. And breach lines are harder to interact with
@@Lunamowon That there are worse things does not make Thoracle less bad. It just means that Underworld Breach probably ought to be on the chopping block as well.
@@zackkelley2940 thoracle is as easy to interact with as any other spell. You should just have more interaction in your deck and more ways to deal with thoracle if that's something you're worried about. Thoracle isn't OP. Players just don't know what to do afainst it
All my decks are garbage, so I don't think too much about rule zero. I ask if anyone minds that my deck is super low-powered and that I'm just gonna try some stuff to have fun. They ask if I would be upset if I get blown outta the water. I say "no." We all kiss and then get started on the game...okay, maybe the kissing doesn't happen, but the rest of it is true.
R.I.P
The problem with Rule Zero is that some people are liars.
I have met groups who kinda rule zero to their own detriment
it is nice that they keep their play group within themselves
but at the same time it is quite an isolated group in their own bubble
which discourages them to mix with people outside their group and actually get better at the game
so it is like using training wheels for too long sort of situation
and yea the myth of cedh players are just pubstompers is very muched debunked as we all know how scary of a weapon we carry around not to just join a table of precons just because we wanna win
If they're happy why do they have to get better.? My pod is very isolated from our lgs which is turn 3 combos meta. I could play at that level but I enjoy jank more, as a result we're the go-to group in our town for new players :)
Cedh players are very well aware of their power, I agree. It's the 8's and 9's pubstomping precons and low power games as "casual decks"
thanks for sharing first of all
glad to know that you guys are being welcoming to others new or old to magic and the various intricacies of commander
you guys must be a fun bunch to play with~
Look at the colours of your opponents commander ..... that's it. Its a social game context (TM copyright WOTC) haha... be social, "when did you start playing? Good indicator of card pool. unless, more social interaction required brace yourself! What's their occupation? from that one may deduct percentage of disposable income, that'll explain the new guy with the time walk! 4th dimension psychology beyond the game to better position oneself strategically with in the game! wow dare I suggest a genius scheme to combine winning with social interaction !
LOL a shop that bans Sol Ring. I guess I woldn't be playing at that shop, which reminds me of a store locally I won't play at. You lose tournament points for winning before Turn 4, and you also lose points for blowing up lands. I have several issues with this because I play decks that can win before turn 4, and I play land destruction. I don't like a shop telling me I'm going to be punished for playing the game the way it is intended to be played.
Honestly if a shop has extra rules that’s a no go for me. I’ve been thinking about making a whole separate video about that
sol ring ban? IT'S ELFING TIME!!!
If they're trying to cultivate a more casual experience you're right not to go, but that doesn't mean they're in the wrong for it. You've gotta find a pod that fits you well otherwise it could be detrimental to others :)
Those seem WAY more egregious than banning Sol Ring, especially because most decks would probably feel smoother and more fun to play against without it at a casual power level.
Sol ring is a stupid card who should be banned. Completely warps the game around itself and require a t1 answer or just lose. Wotc ar3 just being pussies about it.
This is why I just play pauper.
I love pauper!
5:25 HOW is this a jank combo? These cards all work well in Grenzo and are each useful on their own anyway.
This isn't jank, it's just some nice synergy for things you'd probably be running anyway.
Yea I’m saying a pile of cards that’s happens to have a combo in it is not necessarily stronger than a different deck. If any combo has 5+ cards in terms of power it’s more in the jank category but does not mean you shouldn’t run it.
@@thetrinketmage And now we get into a semantic argument about whether this is a 'janky' combo or just 5 cards that have good synergy with each other that just happen to combo together.^^
I’m a vacuum yes but I’m a deck it might be strong! Your right though it’s just semantics
I agree. If there's a chance they just pop off and win turn 3, how is that balanced against the jank decks with a 14 turn clock?
My problem with cedh is that it’s a pay to win format. Unless your opponents allow you to proxy any cards, which will be salt enduring anyway. No way I’m throwing $1000 into a deck.
You do know 99% of people who play Cedh are proxy friendly, right?
Rip commander
Rule 0 and an official banlist are terrible combo
Sorry i don't have the 3500$ to "try" cedh because if you don't play the meta you can't play altogether.
You know what? Wait till Thursday and that video will have a solution
cEDH is 100% proxy supported.