Thanks for a great video . Really helpful to those that haven't deconstructed a MG battery for a project yet and some great safety tips as well. l can't stress enough the importance of being safe and careful around batteries . l use the analogy that an ev battery sitting in a workshop is just like a large fuel tank. lt's safe enough to be around but when all that stored energy gets loose in an uncontrolled fashion it can be deadly and there are no second chances . l would also recommend that even the separate battery modules be treated with respect and be stored safely out of the way. Just as you would if you had jerry cans of fuel or containers of thinners in a workshop .
@14.20 the Auto One car arrives, with Waitara proudly in view !!! (I live only a few kms from Waitara well New Zealand Waitara that is !!). Still going well Stu, love this project !!!
Stu, whilst I totally agree with you that EVs aren't as likely to catch fire as ICE powered cars are, the main problem with EVs is that if one does actually catch fire (from a Thermal Runaway), it burns twice as hot and it generates it's own oxygen hense is extremely difficult to extinguish. A very cool project BTW, I look forward to every episode... keep up the great work!!!👍
Before continuing I preface my comments by saying I think this is an amazing project and that converting a tired old 928 to EV is the perfect way to keep a classic car on the road and is entirely in character with what was when new a high tech GT Car. Further, I also accept that EVs are part of our future motoring and that bluster about risk of fires is simply putting ones head in the sand and pretending the problem will go away. My subsequent comments are not knee jerk anti EV, although they may be knee jerk anti government (of both sides) rhetoric without developing infrastructure and support mechanisms before fundamentally changing our lives. The probability statistics regarding immolation of EVs versus ICE cars are not entirely comparable when taken across the entirety of their respective fleets. Firstly undoubtedly across the entire fleet of vehicles there are more ICE fires per head of population than EV fires. However, the vast majority of ICE fires happen with older cars (20 years plus) and are a result of problems with the 12 volt electrical system catching fire and subsequently igniting the petrol or diesel system. At this stage there are very few old EVs ie 20 years of age or older that have electrical systems starting to age and being maintained by dodgy after market vendors and DIYers cutting corners. If the comparison is done of the subset of ICE vehicles that matches the EV fleet, ie weighted to expensive new vehicles that are maintained by qualified technicians, the rate of immolation is very low across both. Instances of fires being caused by failure in the actual propulsion system itself i.e. the engine or the fuel tank in a modern expensive ICE car are very low, lower than EV immolation due to issues with immolation of the propulsion system when matched across fleets of the same age and market sector. EVs also have a 12 volt electrical system running ancillaries etc and there is nothing about EVs that makes its electrical system better or worse than those in a modern ICE car. So as they age in all likelihood modern EV's and modern ICE cars will have failures at the same rate in these systems and failure rate will be comparable. What is not open for debate is that when immolation occurs the length and ferocity of the fire for an EV vehicle is often far more intense and as the number of EVs increase such fires will be across multiple cars in a carpark or garage and will be much more serious than equivalent ICE fires. This is largely because we have literally had more than a century of dealing with fossil fuel fires and our fire departments have developed sophisticated and organised strategies for dealing with them. Governments are mandating increased EV usage and the simple fact is they have done nothing to develop systems and process for dealing with EV immolation. Research and Development needs to be undertaken to discover/invent ways that EV fires can be managed and put out quickly before 50% of our fleets are electric. Governments mandating EV take up need to also accept responsibility for this research and fund bodies like the CSIRO to develop new methods and practices. I am by no means anti EV and personally think they make a practical transport option for modern cities, however they are not statistically safer than their modern ICE equivalents as the most likely cause of fire is the aging 12 Volt electrical system in each causing the propulsion system to subsequently catch fire. Infrastructure roll out to support EVs needs to include more than just charge points but also developing new systems and processes for managing the statistically low probability of EV fires, which even though low have a much higher consequence than ICE fires. It is simply about developing techniques so that they do not cause disasters due to our outdated methods of fire fighting. While we increase our EV fleet size, lets also increase our knowledge base and develop mitigation strategies to reduce impact of theses rare but consequential EV fires.
Thank you for a long and insightful response and yes some valid points, particularly about there being no 40-year old EVs to evaluate. I would just add some comments. Yes, an EV battery fire is very difficult to put out. I have had the pleasure of trying to put out 3 petrol cars that have caught fire (through combustible fluids, not electrical reasons) and I will suggest the outcome is in many cases likely to be similar - the loss of the vehicle (and adjacent vehicles). Even a small petrol fire can be very difficult to extinguish. Regardless of the intensity of the immolation, the result is similar. Loss of the vehicle. EV fires I would suggest are less explosive initially (allowing time to escape) but much harder to extinguish, and prone to re-ignition (on the flatbed truck or in storage a particular risk). My first 911 was set on fire by the muffler shop that was welding on the exhaust, over 40 years ago! They set fire to the paper in the heat exchangers, which started a small engine fire and burned the (concourse quality) paint on the boot lid. They had it repaired and repainted without my knowledge and I didn't notice for a few weeks until I very puzzled to notice the small colour mismatch and confronted them. They then owned up and paid to have it repainted again by the original painter. So you could say that's a ICE-related fire! Wouldn't happen on an EV! What is also unarguable is that several recent large scale disasters that have been blamed on EVs were not caused by EVs at all - Luton Airport disaster, Freemantle Express North sea disaster. So EVs do have a PR fight to continue. I disagree that the most likely cause of fire in ICE vehicles is the aging 12V electrical system. Old Porsche 944 and 928s are suffering fiery deaths quite often - generally because of fuel line or power steering fluid leaks onto necessarily hot items - the manifold or exhaust. All ICE vehicle fires I've seen have been because of combustible fluids meeting either hot surfaces or electrical shorts. The fact that EVs have neither combustible fluids nor hot surfaces mitigates that risk. And that won't worsen over time. Worth commenting that every cell in my battery pack is being monitored (all 216 of them) while being driven or charged. Any abnormality and the BMS system will either restrict power or disconnect the HV system completely. Thus the risk of fire really comes from puncture or rupture from a severe crash. And seeing how well protected that battery pack was, by steel plates underneath and that massive cast tub located within the vehicle's chassis, it would have to be a major crash. Submersion in a non-combustible fluid (like a river) I would suggest poses very little risk. I readily acknowledge that cheaply-built electric tech is very fire prone when charging - I despise these junky e-Bikes, e-Scooters, e-Skateboards, drones and even phones that are giving battery tech a bad name. And yes, the irony of diesel garbage trucks catching fire from crushing discarded lithium batteries from phones or other devices - is not lost on me. I worked with NTI (Australia's largest truck insurer) briefly years ago and they found the incidence of truck fires in Australia was much higher than the number of insurance claims they managed - mroe than one per day in this country and that was 20 years ago. A proportion of them were NOT related to their ICE diesel - typically from wheel bearings, binding brakes, integrity of tyres, coupling wiring, protection against material spillage, etc., but a lot of them were from ICE related systems - alternator, high-current engine wiring, turbocharger, hydrocarbon fluid containment, engine drive belts, exhaust clearance. The number of EV battery fires in Australia is still in single digits. That's in total. Ever. 6 I believe. One from arson, 3 from external structure burning down, one from major collision and one from road debris. None of these are age-related causes. And worth noting - NONE from spontaneous combustion or unexplained causes (unlike those bloody e-skateboards) But largely agree with some of your other points. More infrastructure and training needed. I recommend EVfiresafe.com if you haven't already seen them. Thanks for contributing.
I wouldn't recommend mounting the BMS end up like that. Bound to accumulate moisture. Extend the leads (with those wonderful butt connectors) and mount remotely.
I am always ready to stand corrected but E=mc2 just refers to the equivalence of mass and energy in any form - nuclear, thermal, chemical, electrical, kinetic, potential or ... indeed .. what we recognise as matter. It postulates that energy and matter are essentially the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. (That's not my definition, that's Enclopedia Brittanica). Yes, nuclear fusion is a particular type of energy conversion often associated with Einstein's equation, but it is not limited to this type of reaction. In nuclear fusion several atoms/molecules combine to form a component whose atomic mass is lighter than the sum of the masses of the molecules that formed it. The excess mass is converted to energy and released (generally with a loud bang). It is a good example of the equivalence / conversion of mass to energy. I would suggest charging a battery is a good example of the opposite on a much smaller scale. Yes, moving the rock up the hill took kinetic energy to achieve potential energy ... with respect to gravitational force to another object, the earth. But it didn't change the mass of the rock any more than it changed the mass of the earth. It did increase the potential energy between them though, as you point out. But I suggest it didn't change the inherent energy/matter within either object itself. I am aware of the 1st law of thermodynamics - conservation of energy - when energy is converted from one form to another. I might be completely misunderstanding this whole thing so always ready to be corrected. Thanks for contributing Wayne, and thanks for the loan of the High Voltage gloves and tools! I hope I used them in a safe manner.
To each their own. No need to hate to say it. Be proud of your choice. Anyway, if you'd been watching the episodes you'd know I'm fitting an active exhaust so it will retain the lovely V8 burble. So I get the best of both worlds - the sound and the grunt without the fuel bill, fire risk (yes, old 928s - big problem) smell and constant expensive maintenance. My other 3 petrol 928s will give me the sound fix when I want it but I suspect they won't be first choice when it's time for a spirited drive. Suggestion : buy yourself a nice little unit right on a major highway. You can listen to buses, V8 landcruisers and diesels all day and all night. Perfect!
This episode had everything, special effects, sparks, Sience, car driven and beer, it doesn't get any better than that
Thanks Stu, I got to watch it at last. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for a great video . Really helpful to those that haven't deconstructed a MG battery for a project yet and some great safety tips as well. l can't stress enough the importance of being safe and careful around batteries . l use the analogy that an ev battery sitting in a workshop is just like a large fuel tank. lt's safe enough to be around but when all that stored energy gets loose in an uncontrolled fashion it can be deadly and there are no second chances . l would also recommend that even the separate battery modules be treated with respect and be stored safely out of the way. Just as you would if you had jerry cans of fuel or containers of thinners in a workshop .
inCARnation Australia, Amazing!
Great episode!
@14.20 the Auto One car arrives, with Waitara proudly in view !!! (I live only a few kms from Waitara well New Zealand Waitara that is !!). Still going well Stu, love this project !!!
Incarnation,breathtaking -=))
thanks. Slava Ukraini
Stu, whilst I totally agree with you that EVs aren't as likely to catch fire as ICE powered cars are, the main problem with EVs is that if one does actually catch fire (from a Thermal Runaway), it burns twice as hot and it generates it's own oxygen hense is extremely difficult to extinguish.
A very cool project BTW, I look forward to every episode... keep up the great work!!!👍
👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
So thats how much SFA weighs?
Before continuing I preface my comments by saying I think this is an amazing project and that converting a tired old 928 to EV is the perfect way to keep a classic car on the road and is entirely in character with what was when new a high tech GT Car. Further, I also accept that EVs are part of our future motoring and that bluster about risk of fires is simply putting ones head in the sand and pretending the problem will go away. My subsequent comments are not knee jerk anti EV, although they may be knee jerk anti government (of both sides) rhetoric without developing infrastructure and support mechanisms before fundamentally changing our lives.
The probability statistics regarding immolation of EVs versus ICE cars are not entirely comparable when taken across the entirety of their respective fleets.
Firstly undoubtedly across the entire fleet of vehicles there are more ICE fires per head of population than EV fires. However, the vast majority of ICE fires happen with older cars (20 years plus) and are a result of problems with the 12 volt electrical system catching fire and subsequently igniting the petrol or diesel system.
At this stage there are very few old EVs ie 20 years of age or older that have electrical systems starting to age and being maintained by dodgy after market vendors and DIYers cutting corners. If the comparison is done of the subset of ICE vehicles that matches the EV fleet, ie weighted to expensive new vehicles that are maintained by qualified technicians, the rate of immolation is very low across both.
Instances of fires being caused by failure in the actual propulsion system itself i.e. the engine or the fuel tank in a modern expensive ICE car are very low, lower than EV immolation due to issues with immolation of the propulsion system when matched across fleets of the same age and market sector.
EVs also have a 12 volt electrical system running ancillaries etc and there is nothing about EVs that makes its electrical system better or worse than those in a modern ICE car. So as they age in all likelihood modern EV's and modern ICE cars will have failures at the same rate in these systems and failure rate will be comparable.
What is not open for debate is that when immolation occurs the length and ferocity of the fire for an EV vehicle is often far more intense and as the number of EVs increase such fires will be across multiple cars in a carpark or garage and will be much more serious than equivalent ICE fires.
This is largely because we have literally had more than a century of dealing with fossil fuel fires and our fire departments have developed sophisticated and organised strategies for dealing with them. Governments are mandating increased EV usage and the simple fact is they have done nothing to develop systems and process for dealing with EV immolation. Research and Development needs to be undertaken to discover/invent ways that EV fires can be managed and put out quickly before 50% of our fleets are electric. Governments mandating EV take up need to also accept responsibility for this research and fund bodies like the CSIRO to develop new methods and practices.
I am by no means anti EV and personally think they make a practical transport option for modern cities, however they are not statistically safer than their modern ICE equivalents as the most likely cause of fire is the aging 12 Volt electrical system in each causing the propulsion system to subsequently catch fire.
Infrastructure roll out to support EVs needs to include more than just charge points but also developing new systems and processes for managing the statistically low probability of EV fires, which even though low have a much higher consequence than ICE fires. It is simply about developing techniques so that they do not cause disasters due to our outdated methods of fire fighting. While we increase our EV fleet size, lets also increase our knowledge base and develop mitigation strategies to reduce impact of theses rare but consequential EV fires.
Thank you for a long and insightful response and yes some valid points, particularly about there being no 40-year old EVs to evaluate. I would just add some comments.
Yes, an EV battery fire is very difficult to put out. I have had the pleasure of trying to put out 3 petrol cars that have caught fire (through combustible fluids, not electrical reasons) and I will suggest the outcome is in many cases likely to be similar - the loss of the vehicle (and adjacent vehicles). Even a small petrol fire can be very difficult to extinguish. Regardless of the intensity of the immolation, the result is similar. Loss of the vehicle. EV fires I would suggest are less explosive initially (allowing time to escape) but much harder to extinguish, and prone to re-ignition (on the flatbed truck or in storage a particular risk).
My first 911 was set on fire by the muffler shop that was welding on the exhaust, over 40 years ago! They set fire to the paper in the heat exchangers, which started a small engine fire and burned the (concourse quality) paint on the boot lid. They had it repaired and repainted without my knowledge and I didn't notice for a few weeks until I very puzzled to notice the small colour mismatch and confronted them. They then owned up and paid to have it repainted again by the original painter. So you could say that's a ICE-related fire! Wouldn't happen on an EV!
What is also unarguable is that several recent large scale disasters that have been blamed on EVs were not caused by EVs at all - Luton Airport disaster, Freemantle Express North sea disaster. So EVs do have a PR fight to continue.
I disagree that the most likely cause of fire in ICE vehicles is the aging 12V electrical system. Old Porsche 944 and 928s are suffering fiery deaths quite often - generally because of fuel line or power steering fluid leaks onto necessarily hot items - the manifold or exhaust. All ICE vehicle fires I've seen have been because of combustible fluids meeting either hot surfaces or electrical shorts. The fact that EVs have neither combustible fluids nor hot surfaces mitigates that risk. And that won't worsen over time.
Worth commenting that every cell in my battery pack is being monitored (all 216 of them) while being driven or charged. Any abnormality and the BMS system will either restrict power or disconnect the HV system completely. Thus the risk of fire really comes from puncture or rupture from a severe crash. And seeing how well protected that battery pack was, by steel plates underneath and that massive cast tub located within the vehicle's chassis, it would have to be a major crash. Submersion in a non-combustible fluid (like a river) I would suggest poses very little risk.
I readily acknowledge that cheaply-built electric tech is very fire prone when charging - I despise these junky e-Bikes, e-Scooters, e-Skateboards, drones and even phones that are giving battery tech a bad name. And yes, the irony of diesel garbage trucks catching fire from crushing discarded lithium batteries from phones or other devices - is not lost on me.
I worked with NTI (Australia's largest truck insurer) briefly years ago and they found the incidence of truck fires in Australia was much higher than the number of insurance claims they managed - mroe than one per day in this country and that was 20 years ago. A proportion of them were NOT related to their ICE diesel - typically from wheel bearings, binding brakes, integrity of tyres, coupling wiring, protection against material spillage, etc., but a lot of them were from ICE related systems - alternator, high-current engine wiring, turbocharger, hydrocarbon fluid containment, engine drive belts, exhaust clearance.
The number of EV battery fires in Australia is still in single digits. That's in total. Ever. 6 I believe. One from arson, 3 from external structure burning down, one from major collision and one from road debris. None of these are age-related causes. And worth noting - NONE from spontaneous combustion or unexplained causes (unlike those bloody e-skateboards)
But largely agree with some of your other points. More infrastructure and training needed. I recommend EVfiresafe.com if you haven't already seen them.
Thanks for contributing.
I wouldn't recommend mounting the BMS end up like that. Bound to accumulate moisture.
Extend the leads (with those wonderful butt connectors) and mount remotely.
Thanks, good point. I'll make sure it's enclosed in the battery structure or sealed in some way.
Mmmmmm beer
Mmmm, Rochefort. Never seen anyone chug it from the bottle before. :)
Yeah I thought that at the time. Poor form I know. We only had second-hand paper coffee cups. Worse.
E=mc2 is in reference to converting mass to energy in an atomic reaction. This is not fission/fusion.
You know how a boulder at the top of a hill has more potential energy than when it's at the bottom? It has the same mass.
I am always ready to stand corrected but E=mc2 just refers to the equivalence of mass and energy in any form - nuclear, thermal, chemical, electrical, kinetic, potential or ... indeed .. what we recognise as matter.
It postulates that energy and matter are essentially the same physical entity and can be changed into each other. (That's not my definition, that's Enclopedia Brittanica).
Yes, nuclear fusion is a particular type of energy conversion often associated with Einstein's equation, but it is not limited to this type of reaction. In nuclear fusion several atoms/molecules combine to form a component whose atomic mass is lighter than the sum of the masses of the molecules that formed it. The excess mass is converted to energy and released (generally with a loud bang). It is a good example of the equivalence / conversion of mass to energy. I would suggest charging a battery is a good example of the opposite on a much smaller scale.
Yes, moving the rock up the hill took kinetic energy to achieve potential energy ... with respect to gravitational force to another object, the earth. But it didn't change the mass of the rock any more than it changed the mass of the earth. It did increase the potential energy between them though, as you point out. But I suggest it didn't change the inherent energy/matter within either object itself.
I am aware of the 1st law of thermodynamics - conservation of energy - when energy is converted from one form to another.
I might be completely misunderstanding this whole thing so always ready to be corrected. Thanks for contributing Wayne, and thanks for the loan of the High Voltage gloves and tools! I hope I used them in a safe manner.
I hate to say I prefer a real v8 with v8 sounds… if I want to drive a hairdryer I will go to bing lee. No thanks !
To each their own. No need to hate to say it. Be proud of your choice. Anyway, if you'd been watching the episodes you'd know I'm fitting an active exhaust so it will retain the lovely V8 burble. So I get the best of both worlds - the sound and the grunt without the fuel bill, fire risk (yes, old 928s - big problem) smell and constant expensive maintenance. My other 3 petrol 928s will give me the sound fix when I want it but I suspect they won't be first choice when it's time for a spirited drive.
Suggestion : buy yourself a nice little unit right on a major highway. You can listen to buses, V8 landcruisers and diesels all day and all night. Perfect!