Awesome. Nice rigid machine too. One thing I was taught as an apprentice, over 30 years ago mine you, lol, was to always machines towards the hard jaw. I never strayed from that pretty much my entire career, and if I ever tried I immediately noticed the difference in rigidity.
Notice he cut on the Y instead of the X axis. If you think about it the Y axis on a Bridgeport should always be stiffer because the load isn't twisting the turret.
What I meant to say is modern tooling is designed to cut and take the heat from the friction out of the part, transferring it to the cutter and the chip..
yes I threw out my fly cutters 30 years ago and I simply use a shell mill. for critical surfaces however take out all but one insert to finish such as on critical mold surfaces. by leaving all the inserts in the z pressure is too much and you will notice the surface is not as good combined with when the cutter goes off the edge the pressure of the 2 or 3 inserts is released and the final insert will dig down into the part on the edges. This effect is real and VERY pronounced such as with 6 insert cutters especially if they have a wiper flat because that wiper flat can add up 1/4 of flat scrubbing--work hardening and destroying the surface and also eliminating the chance to feed in the z with accuracy. another trick if using one insert to finish is to take a diamond knife lap and stone off slightly the wiper flat you will be astonished at the surface and the ability to cut to tenths on thickness also on mold surfaces or surfaces that must be polished there will be almost no work hardened layer.
Thanks for that. I have wondered if you can leave the all but 1 insert off one of these mills effectively making it a fly cutter, so you can get that final finish. It makes sense but I haven't heard anyone say it.
Damn I made that mistake the other day, turned on the spindle in the opposite direction and cracked every insert in half pretty much, fortunately only 3 inserts but still 40 bucks I'll never get back
Get a tripod for your camera, keep it further away and zoom in. This will allow you to film the milling process without getting hit by chips and without having to film a cardboard box. Impressive cutter.
I'll say I'd rather deal with a smoldering box than a smoldering neck/face/head/wrist..... remember there's very little on the machine that burns but everything on you will
There is virtually no difference in finish betwen the two. Face mills don't wreck your spindle bearings though. If you are determined to remove machining marks, a quick buzz over with a random orbital sander and scotchbrite takes seconds.
I'm a engineering student and I don't have a ton of experience with mills, but aren't you concerned about over-heating. It was making some pretty loud noises screeching, and I assumed that you'd use cutting fluid?
Hi R.B., Thanks for your question. Actually Carbide is made to withstand heat. By design, the heat stays with the chips, and as the carbide gets dull they get hot and then that also transfers to the work piece. Keep an eye on how the cut is going. If things get hot, switch to a sharp insert. In some cases putting coolant on these kind of cuts will create thermal shock to the carbide which may break down the cutting edges. This project was only making a couple pieces, but if you were running them all day long, you might take a different approach. All the tool manufacturers used to see who could take the heaviest cut, but in the world of CNC, now the thinking is to make shallower cuts at a faster rate, which saves wear and tear on your machine - especially spindle bearings. "Dry Cutting" is also been the direction we have gone....spraying coolant on a cutter that is spinning fast and kicking out hot chips can create a fog in the shop. We put in a vacuum Air Handler to suck up the mist, but by changing to dry cuts, we don't have that problem and air quality is not even an issue. Didn't take long to figure that out. A lathe really atomizes the coolant into a mist because of hitting the jaws in a high RPM chuck. A good chip load and steady feed will peel the material right off. Machine rigidity is also important for carbide life. Carbide can cut almost anything, but if you have a loose insert or vibration, or turn it on backwards, it will chip right away. Carbides have come a long way in that there is a carbide insert for every application of material or hardness. Tooling suppliers can really help if you have a difficult material to machine...just ask. That block was S-7 tool steel which is made to be "shock resisting" in it's final application.
@@makersmachining5408 Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me. I came across your video while studying for my metal working class exam as part of my M.E.T degree. Thanks!
The cardboard box was a great idea, have you thought about putting some kindling in the box first or just stick with the charcoal starter fluid? Just kidding, thanks for the info.
I was always tought face mills are for roughing material (granted a mirror finish can be achived) and a fly cutter is for finish work as tipicly they can achieve a larger diameter
Hi Daniel, Thanks for your comments. I've been in the trade for a long time and have used both face mills and fly cutters ( back before there were face mills ) We used fly cutters for rough cutting and finish work, just like you can with a face mill. The main difference now is that you if you have enough horsepower for your face mill, you can remove a lot more material - and faster - than with a fly cutter. Horsepower and the rigidity of your machine also make a difference. A fly cutter has 1 bit, whereas a face mill has many. so if your face mill has 4 cutting edges, in theory you can feed into the cut 4 times faster. Carbide inserts in a face mill tool are all precisely made for interchangeability and repeatability, along with the geometry of the inserts that are designed for all kinds of materials to cut - evacuating the chips and the heat associated with them. That is a science in itself, and a good study along with speeds and feeds for optimum cutting life. The fly cutter on the other hand has a single tool bit, which can be high speed steel, a cemented carbide tip or a tool bit with carbide inserts. Side by side a flycutter is a lot less expensive than a face mill with many inserts. The feature of a fly cutter and it's cutting tool is that you can grind the cutting point on your tool bit to suit the cut you are making. That takes practice to get it right. High speed steel is great for machining aluminum, and you can put a nice radius on the edge with a generous positive rake that really shoots the chips away, and gives a nice finish. You can do the same with a cemented carbide tool bit for cutting steel or alloy materials...just not with as much rake. An insert tool is a little more difficult to custom grind. A fly cutter is a little harder on the spindle bearings too, because it swings around and hits the material once per revolution, whereas a face mill won't have the interruptions between cutter points since there is always an edge engaged in the material, and you can really feed it heavy into the cut. The economy of cost favors a fly cutter if you are using a Bridgeport style mill in a hobby or entry level operation, but if you are producing more parts with a CNC mill, a face mill is the way to go.
I'm building a fly cutter right now. From machining a nice wide head or block with many interrupted cuts. I tend to lean towards a fly cutter with high speed steel for the finish. But the fly cutter I see most people talk about are the very out of balance steep angle ones were you can extend the diameter. Although that is a nice feature I lean more towards a nice heavy disk style with a 1/2 bit but I have 2 different cutters one is set about .05 larger diameter then the other and about .01 high up. This counter balances the finishing tool and provides a roughing pass.
@@velez910 You make a good point about the "balance" of a fly cutter that is made with a large angle. That angle gives the tool bit relief it needs and clearance for chips to fly out. Not sure what material you are machining, and what your rpm is. The big diameter of your cut makes the tool sweep over a lot of surface footage, and can make a high speed tool get dull pretty quick.
You are spot on high speed steel likes a slower sfm then carbide and as diameter goes up you turn the rpm down. All of my relief is in the tool its self. Never had a issue with chips rubbing as the tend to get shot out or in depending on the needs and how I grind the tool. The style I'm talking about is used alot for decking heads and engine blocks very rigid. The tool stick out is minimal so the size isn't all that bigger of a issue
Daniel I basicaly agree with your comments,, personally I don't like 2inch plus carbide face mills on Bridgeport type machines they just don't have the power and rigidity which you need for for carbide tooling .. doesn't do spindle bearings any good eather ,, for stock removal you can't beat a sharp big ripping cutter with the right speeds and feeds and coolant.. surface finish is not important when roughing you can finish with any cutter you prefer..t
Impressive. Would you please tell me what Brand of Face Mill that is and what inserts it takes? There are many on the market with a wide range of prices. I ran across one similar to yours on the internet and it was $750! What was the cost of yours? Thank you very much
Hi KW, That's actually a SECO cutter on a CAT 30 shank. Might be called an Octomill cutter and holds 4 inserts. The inserts are Octagons (obviously). Over the inserts it measures 3" diameter, but the circle that it makes at the bottom is about 2-1/2" diameter. I couldn't read the printing on the body of the cutter anymore because it's been around a little while. We haven't changed inserts in a long time, but if you turn the spindle on backwards, and try to cut that way, you'll be replacing all of them. No clue what the price was. Sometime SECO (and other tool companies) will give away the holder (or a reduced price) if you buy a certain amount of inserts. Google "Octomill" and SECO to see what comes up. Good luck and thanks for the question.
Awesome. Nice rigid machine too. One thing I was taught as an apprentice, over 30 years ago mine you, lol, was to always machines towards the hard jaw. I never strayed from that pretty much my entire career, and if I ever tried I immediately noticed the difference in rigidity.
Notice he cut on the Y instead of the X axis.
If you think about it the Y axis on a Bridgeport should always be stiffer because the load isn't twisting the turret.
That's very useful. Just the sort of information I was looking for. I'd read that carbide can cut hot but this video shows it working in practice.
Modern design for tooling is such that
What I meant to say is modern tooling is designed to cut and take the heat from the friction out of the part, transferring it to the cutter and the chip..
yes I threw out my fly cutters 30 years ago and I simply use a shell mill. for critical surfaces however take out all but one insert to finish such as on critical mold surfaces. by leaving all the inserts in the z pressure is too much and you will notice the surface is not as good combined with when the cutter goes off the edge the pressure of the 2 or 3 inserts is released and the final insert will dig down into the part on the edges. This effect is real and VERY pronounced such as with 6 insert cutters especially if they have a wiper flat because that wiper flat can add up 1/4 of flat scrubbing--work hardening and destroying the surface and also eliminating the chance to feed in the z with accuracy. another trick if using one insert to finish is to take a diamond knife lap and stone off slightly the wiper flat you will be astonished at the surface and the ability to cut to tenths on thickness also on mold surfaces or surfaces that must be polished there will be almost no work hardened layer.
Hadn't considered using just one insert. Thanks.
I use a facemill for hogging and a flycutter for the finish pass.
Thanks for that.
I have wondered if you can leave the all but 1 insert off one of these mills effectively making it a fly cutter, so you can get that final finish.
It makes sense but I haven't heard anyone say it.
Thanks for you wisdom. I'M a MACHINIST VIRGIN and surely need direction from the old schoolers.
Blue Steel Chips are my Favorite Flavor
Damn I made that mistake the other day, turned on the spindle in the opposite direction and cracked every insert in half pretty much, fortunately only 3 inserts but still 40 bucks I'll never get back
Get a tripod for your camera, keep it further away and zoom in. This will allow you to film the milling process without getting hit by chips and without having to film a cardboard box. Impressive cutter.
That is a beast of a cutter
700 degree chips vs. cardboard box? sounds like a celebrity death match.
everybody does the same thing just like he showed.
I'll say I'd rather deal with a smoldering box than a smoldering neck/face/head/wrist..... remember there's very little on the machine that burns but everything on you will
The title of this video is "fly cutter vs face mill". I think some of the video never made it to this video as there is no comparison done.
question .. is not a good idea to use a lubricant spray there ? to help cooling and easier cutting ?
very good!
wonderful !!
There is virtually no difference in finish betwen the two. Face mills don't wreck your spindle bearings though. If you are determined to remove machining marks, a quick buzz over with a random orbital sander and scotchbrite takes seconds.
Cool,
Great video of the back side of a cardboard box.. hahsha
I'm a engineering student and I don't have a ton of experience with mills, but aren't you concerned about over-heating. It was making some pretty loud noises screeching, and I assumed that you'd use cutting fluid?
Hi R.B., Thanks for your question. Actually Carbide is made to withstand heat. By design, the heat stays with the chips, and as the carbide gets dull they get hot and then that also transfers to the work piece. Keep an eye on how the cut is going. If things get hot, switch to a sharp insert. In some cases putting coolant on these kind of cuts will create thermal shock to the carbide which may break down the cutting edges.
This project was only making a couple pieces, but if you were running them all day long, you might take a different approach. All the tool manufacturers used to see who could take the heaviest cut, but in the world of CNC, now the thinking is to make shallower cuts at a faster rate, which saves wear and tear on your machine - especially spindle bearings. "Dry Cutting" is also been the direction we have gone....spraying coolant on a cutter that is spinning fast and kicking out hot chips can create a fog in the shop. We put in a vacuum Air Handler to suck up the mist, but by changing to dry cuts, we don't have that problem and air quality is not even an issue.
Didn't take long to figure that out. A lathe really atomizes the coolant into a mist because of hitting the jaws in a high RPM chuck.
A good chip load and steady feed will peel the material right off. Machine rigidity is also important for carbide life.
Carbide can cut almost anything, but if you have a loose insert or vibration, or turn it on backwards, it will chip right away.
Carbides have come a long way in that there is a carbide insert for every application of material or hardness. Tooling suppliers can really help if you have a difficult material to machine...just ask.
That block was S-7 tool steel which is made to be "shock resisting" in it's final application.
@@makersmachining5408 Cool, thanks for clearing that up for me. I came across your video while studying for my metal working class exam as part of my M.E.T degree. Thanks!
I am machinist for 25 years, fly cutter shouldn't exist ,maybe 50 years ago was ok but not today, just my 2 cents. Great video ,thank you.
There are applications wear a face mill just won't work but yet a single point fly cutter will solve many problems
The cardboard box was a great idea, have you thought about putting some kindling in the box first or just stick with the charcoal starter fluid? Just kidding, thanks for the info.
I was always tought face mills are for roughing material (granted a mirror finish can be achived) and a fly cutter is for finish work as tipicly they can achieve a larger diameter
Hi Daniel, Thanks for your comments. I've been in the trade for a long time and have used both face mills and fly cutters ( back before there were face mills ) We used fly cutters for rough cutting and finish work, just like you can with a face mill.
The main difference now is that you if you have enough horsepower for your face mill, you can remove a lot more material - and faster - than with a fly cutter. Horsepower and the rigidity of your machine also make a difference. A fly cutter has 1 bit, whereas a face mill has many. so if your face mill has 4 cutting edges, in theory you can feed into the cut 4 times faster.
Carbide inserts in a face mill tool are all precisely made for interchangeability and repeatability, along with the geometry of the inserts that are designed for all kinds of materials to cut - evacuating the chips and the heat associated with them. That is a science in itself, and a good study along with speeds and feeds for optimum cutting life.
The fly cutter on the other hand has a single tool bit, which can be high speed steel, a cemented carbide tip or a tool bit with carbide inserts. Side by side a flycutter is a lot less expensive than a face mill with many inserts.
The feature of a fly cutter and it's cutting tool is that you can grind the cutting point on your tool bit to suit the cut you are making. That takes practice to get it right. High speed steel is great for machining aluminum, and you can put a nice radius on the edge with a generous positive rake that really shoots the chips away, and gives a nice finish.
You can do the same with a cemented carbide tool bit for cutting steel or alloy materials...just not with as much rake. An insert tool is a little more difficult to custom grind.
A fly cutter is a little harder on the spindle bearings too, because it swings around and hits the material once per revolution, whereas a face mill won't have the interruptions between cutter points since there is always an edge engaged in the material, and you can really feed it heavy into the cut.
The economy of cost favors a fly cutter if you are using a Bridgeport style mill in a hobby or entry level operation, but if you are producing more parts with a CNC mill, a face mill is the way to go.
I'm building a fly cutter right now. From machining a nice wide head or block with many interrupted cuts. I tend to lean towards a fly cutter with high speed steel for the finish. But the fly cutter I see most people talk about are the very out of balance steep angle ones were you can extend the diameter. Although that is a nice feature I lean more towards a nice heavy disk style with a 1/2 bit but I have 2 different cutters one is set about .05 larger diameter then the other and about .01 high up. This counter balances the finishing tool and provides a roughing pass.
@@velez910 You make a good point about the "balance" of a fly cutter that is made with a large angle. That angle gives the tool bit relief it needs and clearance for chips to fly out. Not sure what material you are machining, and what your rpm is. The big diameter of your cut makes the tool sweep over a lot of surface footage, and can make a high speed tool get dull pretty quick.
You are spot on high speed steel likes a slower sfm then carbide and as diameter goes up you turn the rpm down. All of my relief is in the tool its self. Never had a issue with chips rubbing as the tend to get shot out or in depending on the needs and how I grind the tool. The style I'm talking about is used alot for decking heads and engine blocks very rigid. The tool stick out is minimal so the size isn't all that bigger of a issue
Daniel I basicaly agree with your comments,, personally I don't like 2inch plus carbide face mills on Bridgeport type machines they just don't have the power and rigidity which you need for for carbide tooling .. doesn't do spindle bearings any good eather ,, for stock removal you can't beat a sharp big ripping cutter with the right speeds and feeds and coolant.. surface finish is not important when roughing you can finish with any cutter you prefer..t
Impressive. Would you please tell me what Brand of Face Mill that is and what inserts it takes?
There are many on the market with a wide range of prices. I ran across one similar to yours on the internet and it was $750! What was the cost of yours? Thank you very much
Hi KW, That's actually a SECO cutter on a CAT 30 shank. Might be called an Octomill cutter and holds 4 inserts. The inserts are Octagons (obviously). Over the inserts it measures 3" diameter, but the circle that it makes at the bottom is about 2-1/2" diameter. I couldn't read the printing on the body of the cutter anymore because it's been around a little while. We haven't changed inserts in a long time, but if you turn the spindle on backwards, and try to cut that way, you'll be replacing all of them. No clue what the price was.
Sometime SECO (and other tool companies) will give away the holder (or a reduced price) if you buy a certain amount of inserts.
Google "Octomill" and SECO to see what comes up. Good luck and thanks for the question.
@@makersmachining5408 Thank you very much for taking the time to reply. I appreciate it very much. Regards, KW
similar cutters from china with inserts are in the range of 50 or 60 bucks now.
@@makersmachining5408 what speed and HP is your motor?
You are breaking technology. The box is not positioned correctly. There it is written in large letters "This side is up"