@@dianetigert1310Acts 2: 36-42, this is the first Gospel preached. You also find it in Hebrews 6: 1-2 and 1 Corinthians 15, they have faith in God the Farther and the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism in similitude of Jesus Christ burial and resurrection, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and enduring in righteousness to the end of your life. So that when you are resurrected and brought before Jesus Christ to be judged of your works he will say "Well do thou good and faithful servant."
I also believe what Joseph Smith Jr. said. That there were plains where some Nephites lived at some time. And about the great warrior Zelph a righteous Lamanite. Well where The Book Of Mormon took place there were no righteous Lamanites after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, only those who rejected Jesus Christ were called Lamanites. And at the time Zelph lived, there were no wars where The Book Of Mormon took place, so there could be no great warriors either. So what Joseph Smith Jr. said proves The Book Of Mormon couldn't have taken place in the Heartland.
@@bartonbagnes4605 Isn't it interesting that Jesus taught publicly to the crowds and also privately to His group of disciples..... He also publicly denounced the Jewish religious leadership Matt. 23 As I shared Gal. 1:9 wouldn't anyone who professes to believe take caution? Wasn't the first gospel preached, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you. Wasn't the first gospel preached (the law?)
@dianetigert1310 We are told that the Law of Moses was given because of the disobedience of the children of Israel, but many laws predate the Law of Moses. That is the law that Jesus Christ restored. Called the Law of Grace or Law of Christ. Read the Bible a little more carefully.
Wayne states that in the burial mounds there are parakeets buried, that would indicate very different weather from that time. I’ve never even bothered to consider geography, but I heard Wayne and his arguments are solid
Or it just means that parakeets were traded to those who could afford such luxuries. Birds don't migrate because of cold, they follow food sources. But when people are feeding them, cold weather is not an issue. Parakeets only live six to eighteen years under the best of circumstances anyways.
Where ever the geographic locations of the Book Of Mormon takes place really doesn’t matter to me. I love the message and the Book! Thank you for this! ❤you!
This is the best comment on this subject, it doesn’t matter, the book is true, the principles are sound, its teachings will lead to salvation no matter where it took place. I’ve got way more important things to concern myself with than where it actually took place, no offense to those that like this conversation, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s minor.
I have always believed that the Book of Mormon probably took place in South America because they said that the Lamanites would be converted to the book of Mormon in the last days. They said that there was an enormous growth down in Brazil and those areas… Way more growth than what has been going on in any part of America.
Cardio Miracle works for me! Three years now. Over 80 years ago a faithful righteous Primary Teacher testified that most of the events of the Book of Mormon took place in Central and South America. She even had books with pictures as support. It worked for me then. It still works for me today. Maybe the sealed plates will reveal why snow storms are not mentioned. The second testimony and witness of Jesus Christ is true. I love it. Brother Palmer, thank you for your insights.
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how many times in the BofM does it say that many groups of people LEFT THE AREA OF ZARAHEMLA and journeyed north / south / east / west.........how many times does it say that the whole face of the land was covered with people and buildings . and then there is the statement AFTER the destructive earthquakes , etc , that the whole face of the land was changed. just like the nephites put all the bodies of the people of the destroyed city of ammoniha all together and covered them with a covering of earth. what do you think the people did to all those DRY BONES they discovered in the north . AND how many times does it say that " a hundreth part " of the history of the people cannot be written .
@@deannabuck8324Yes, but The Book Of Mormon only covers a very small area, all others leave the narrative. Even Moroni, after burying all the records in the Hill Cumorah, takes the Golden Plates and travels whithersoever he can to avoid capture by the Lamanites hunting down Nephites to destroy. That means traveling far away from where all the Lamanites gathered for the final battle, the Hill Cumorah.
Book of Mormon Geography This is a much more complex topic than many realize and that both sides to this argument could be right at same time. The following is my notes from Hugh Nibley. It comes from Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Transcripts of Lectures Presented to an Honors Book of Mormon Class at Brigham Young University, 1988-1990 Hugh Nibley but I do not have specific page or volume references. The oversimplified conclusions that members often seem to glom onto of a single point of entry with just one group of people, when fully understood one realizes just how complex this topic is. We know that there are at least three different groups mentioned within the Book of Mormon the Jaredites, the Mulekites and Lehi’s group. Additionally, there are a number of hints that they were not alone but there were other unrelated groups in the area as well. Since we can eliminate the possibility of only one location or point of entry since there would be multiple arrival points making both the geography and DNA questions much more complex. While our leaders have encouraged us not to get into debates regarding specific locations as it relates to the geographical picture, there are a number of more general locational hints provided in the Book of Mormon that are hard to ignore. For example, the Jaredites being in the land northward. 30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing. Alma 22:30 Note that not only were the Jaradites in the land north, but it tells us that this was also the place of their first landing. Could the Jaredites have come down the St Lawrence Seaway? Within the naturally occurring copper found along the borders of the great lakes, there are remnants of extensive ancient copper mines including the stone tools and other implements that were used to secure this copper. Additionally, the Book of Mormon informs us that the Jaredites were a large people. 26 And it came to pass that they ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow. And they were large and mighty men as to the strength of men. Ether 15:26 34 And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words. Ether 1:34 Skeletal remains in this same region have been found that are 7 or 8 feet in height, source The Historical Collections of Ohio, 1849 Bones found in the mounds were of a gigantic structure… Now turning to the DNA issue, we tend to oversimply and think the Book of Mormon people are alone in America, it seems apparent that there had been other people in the land, and not too far away. Lehi’s family wasn’t the first people. When you find bones, it doesn’t mean they are Nephite, Lamanite, or Jaredite necessarily. Going south we know that Zarahemla was a Mulekite establishment, perhaps part of what is now known as the Hopewell civilization may have been the Mulekites. Amalickiah was a Mulekite, his name meaning “my king is Jehovah.” . We forget that Zarahemla wasn’t a Nephite city at all; it was a Mulekite City. The Mulekites were a mixed band, much larger than Lehi’s Group, who came over when Jerusalem fell. We know now from the Lachish letters that the youngest member of the royal family did escape. He would be Mulek, the “little king”. Possibly, they call themselves the Mulekites because he led their particular group. … They not only built the big city of Zarahemla, but they ( included ) almost all the dissenters. Ammon was a Mulekite, a pure descendant of Zeniff. Returning to the geography questions, we learn that Lehi’s group arrived further south perhaps in the region between North and South America per Helaman 6. Nephi is freed, and by his prayer the storm ceases-The people arrive in the promised land. About 591-589 B.C. 22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land. 23 And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the apromised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land. 1 Nephi 18: Note the geographical details found in Helaman in regards to their point of first landing: 10 Now the land south was called aLehi, and the land north was called bMulek, which was after the cson of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south. Helaman 6 Along with this there are frequent indications we will see in the Book of Mormon of ancient and exotic peoples in the background, for example, when Alma went to visit the Zoramites on a mission. They dissented, as you know, and went out. They had only been away from the central culture for a short period. He says they (Alma and his group) were utterly dumbfounded. They were so amazed they didn’t know what to think of it. It absolutely stunned them. They (the Zoramites) had a totally different religion of very exotic things in which they built towers and stairways and all this sort of thing to have prayers. They loaded themselves with all sorts of costly and lavish apparel, and the priests were parading murals, vases, and the reliefs of Central and South America - this lavish, strange religion which was there before. The Zoramites took it up obviously. Almost overnight they had this whole different culture. ( Alma and his brethren ) were completely amazed by what they found, how they had changed everything. They kept some of the old religion and adopted this, that and the other. But who would give them this idea? You don’t just invent a religion whole cloth that way. They came out and picked this up. Including gold in everything for one thing. And they don’t just wear gold, but what else do they wear? They load themselves like a walking Christmas tree, with feathers and all sorts of clinking, rattling, and glittering garbage. Then they parade themselves. It’s comical in Central America. They overdo it so, whether it’s on the Mayan, or the illustrations of the Popol Vuh. It shows the grandees parading around with much too much hardware on. That’s a sign of pride, and it talks a great deal in the Book of Mormon about their precious, costly apparel. It doesn’t say beautiful apparel ever. It just says costly; that’s the main thing. That’s the only thing that interests us-that it has the proper label on it. The cost is what makes them great. This is the way the people were. “And some were lifted up unto pride and boastings because of their exceedingly great riches.” There are various ways. Boasting doesn’t mean you would have to go and shout it from the housetops. It’s the same thing with our labels on jeans -our fashionable designer labels and things like that. You can size a person’s wardrobe up when you see it, total up the bill, and decide exactly how much he spent on it. This happens, and we do that deliberately. We try to make it obvious that we are wearing a particular brand of this, that, or the other. They are boasting because of their riches and making their riches obvious. It becomes invidious comparison. Here it gives us the kind of culture they had. You can see that these are more complex issues than first meets the eye. The inhabitants of early America were a mix of many different cultures.
Thank you so much for your excellent comments. I have lived amongst the native Americans in Alaska, Oklahoma, and the northeast USA. I am a heart lander believer all the way! After witnessing the native customs, I hope more and more research will continue.
Hi, to me it is as simple as the Hopewell indians lived the law of moses. There temples have ramps, which is a requirement for law of moses. What do we see in central America nothing but stairs, which is against law of moses. Just one of many reasons why heartland is correct.
@watcherpalmerlds it does because the Hopewell are in the heartland and all their temples had ramps according to law of moses, they also had Hebrew DNA, Hebrew burial rites, swords and armor, walls around the city at the time of moronic. Almost all of their cities had compass and square in the design. Some even minoras. Lets not also forget heartland had migrating beast, buffalo covered the ohio river valley back then. There are no migrating beast in central america.This is all in heartland also joseph smith was the prophet i think more in tune then any other. He said it was were they were. Also on the hill cumorah when they put in the stage for the pagent they removed boxes of arrow heads and weapons in one little excavation site...
The best and most reliable evidence is the DNA and all three types of DNA testing (mtDNA, Y-DNA and autosomal) all best support the Hopewell and Algonquin tribes as having far and away the best DNA connection.
@watcherpalmerlds It is factual. I've researched that a great deal and done a book and a number of presentations on it. If you want you can look at the information I've presented.
@ the information I gave may be weak in your opinion, but you give no information disputing what I presented. I refuted the DNA with a reference to the church website. I also know a micro biologist , last name of Woodward who would dispute what you have to say. If you are going to say my info was weak, I will reply back to your false claims of DNA. You cannot prove or disprove the Book of Mormon by DNA.
@watcherpalmerlds DNA doesn't prove the Book of Mormon but it does give strong evidence. I encourage you to look at what I've presented. It would take hours to re-give all the information here. But here are a few citations for each of the three types of DNA testing. On the Mtdna testing, the closest Old World DNA relative for Native American mtdna X2a (mostly found in Algonquin tribes) is in the Middle East and the Middle East is scientifically the likely origin. See Reidla, "Origin and Diffusion of mtdna Haplogroup X", Amer. Journal of Human Genetics (2003); Oppenheimer, "Solutrean Hypothesis ..." World Archaeology (2014). On the Y-DNA testing, the MAJORITY of Algonquin tribe males are Y-DNA R1b, which is also found in significant numbers in Jewish populations. See Bortolini "Y-chromosome Evidence for Differing Ancient Demogaphic Histories of the Americas" (2003); Shen, "Reconstruction of ... Israeli Populations" Human Mutation (2004). On autosomal DNA testing, the Algonquin tribes show significant DNA markers that are found in Mediterranean populations. Chacon-Duque, Nature Communications (2018).
@@LamanitehistoryExcept that DNA came from the Phoenicians that mined Copper in the Great Lakes area for a few thousand years, leaving DNA, if not men, each of those years.
Fact: the Hill Cumorah is in modern day New York and the final battles took place in that vicinity. (Letter Vll, Lucy Mack Smith journal, etc). Everyone in Joseph’s era knew this as a fact. I’m amazed at how modern scholars think they know better. Two Cumorahs is never mentioned, ever. Yet the scholars fabricate this fallacy. The Hill Cumorah is in New York, fact. Geography debate is over.
@@BrianTerrill “Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture" [nor apparently any other thing he wants to say.] From: "The Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet" Initially given by Pres (of the 12) Ezra Taft Benson at BYU, Feb 26, 1980, later made the First Presidency message of the June 1981 Ensign, and repeatedly delivered verbatim in General Conference, Stake conferences, etc.
Scott, I think this is one of your best videos yet. I've been a member all of my life and I'm in my fifties. I've always had a Meso view (although we believe the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and an ancient record, regardless where it happened). I've thought of the Book of Mormon being evidence of the Meso and South American ruins, rather than the ruins being evidence of the Book of Mormon. We had a great missionary serve in my ward in London not long ago. He joined the Church during lockdown and he said what converted him was the archaelogy--that it was so obvious to him, all the ruins of the areas of central and south America were of ancient people who would have had to come from somewhere--Jaredites, Mulekites, Lehi's family.
you imply that the seasons never change that how the world is now is how it was 2000 years ago. I am sure the climate was much different when the garden of Eden was in Missouri. What if the poles switched 2000 years ago?
I noticed a scripture in this week's reading that has a significance. Ether 10:20 And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land. Interesting, it says the sea divides the land at the narrow neck. That would not be accurate for the Mesoamerican model. In addition, I think the sea is the great lakes, not the Mississippi. Niagara was a Indigenous name that meant narrow neck. If you apply that the land of desolation would be west of Niagara falls. I think it works. No metal swords in Mesoamerican lands and there are in the great lake area. Lastly, with all the fires the people built there would have been global warming so winters would not have been as harsh. 😅 Of course my testimony has nothing to do with the geography of the book of Mormon but I love the evidences seen in the heartland model though I have my own thoughts on a few things that aren't within that model.
This is the first time that I have agreed with Watcher Palmer 100%. Good job on the video! Where are the Lamanites blossoming as a rose? It sure ain't in the U.S. Look to Meso- and South America. The growth is off the charts!! There shouldn't be an argument, period!
So why did not Joseph Smith go down to Guatemala to give them the Book or Mormon? Because it was a remnant of the American Indian. AMERICAN Indian. It's like members don't read 2nd Nephi at all. I can't believe Moroni marched wagon loads of records up to the Hill while being chased by Lamanites? Sorry... Hard to swallow.
Joseph said the BoM City of Manti was located in Rudolph County Missouri. The Historical Record, Vol 7, 601 Despite growing up a mezo believer, bc that's what is assumed in the CES side of things, I converted to US heartland model bc I could not reconcile 1st & 2nd Nephi. The Lamanites would be scattered by the gentiles. The gentiles would get the Gospel and spread it from this land of promise. The gentiles would fight and win against their mother country. The land would be known as a land of liberty (seriously, name the mezo land of liberty). I trust the geology will work itself out in due time, and am not bothered if events happened in mezo areas, but the heart of the BoM happened in the heart of the Promised land.
However the verse is plural refering to the mother countries. Mexico also fought for its independance from Spain, and a greater genocide occured against the native inhabitants of Mexico than the US. Not only that but Spain claimed a portion of what is now the USA, as well as extensive areas of south Amerca. i tend to subscribe to a more hemispheric model. There have been recent.y discovered by ladar scans of the amazon basin of remains of cities. The esemate were that the area was inhabited by 5 million people. There were aparently wiped out by diseases brought by Europeans. The destruction was so great that subsequent explorers a hundred years later saw no trace of what the earlier explorer described, it had all been swallowed up by the jungle.
@avoice423 let's assume Mexico has all that land (Guatemala, California, Texas, etc) and the US only goes out to the Midwest. Joseph still named the place; Rudolph County Missouri is where the City of Manti was located, and the Missouri area would be the land of Manti. If you build the geography off the words of Joseph, and couple the entirety of Nephi's gentile/liberty verses, that puts the heart of the BoM right where the old US borders existed in the days of Joseph and the restoration. LIDAR has been extensive in south America. Just imagine what could be found if we did LIDAR where the Lord told Joseph to send missionaries to convert the Lamanites!
Yes...Guatemala is not the promised land. I guess Lehi landed in Guatemala then hiked hundreds of miles north to the promised land...mentioned in 2nd Nephi.
@@GAILandROD Lehi most likely didnt go far at all from where they landed, but after he died, Nephi and those who went with him traveled for many days to found a new city called the city of Nephi. Then the first Mosiah also traveled many days to find the city of Zarahemla. Alma traveled 12 days into the wilderness to escape Noah. So we know that 12 days is not considered many. Ammon and his band wandered in the wilderness for 40 days before they found Limhi's people. So i think we can conclude that many days is more than 12 and closer to 40. Strong and mighty men could easily cover 10 to 20 miles a day depending on terrain. So we are talking 400 plus miles. With horses you could probably double that.
I personally go with THIS (U.S.) is the "promised land" of the Jaredites, Mulekites, and Lehi's family. BUT, I really don't give a tinkers damn other than it makes sense because everything happens here in the latter-days.
If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who the Lamanites are??? 4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. 5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers. The gentiles have received the blessings that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are: “These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).
If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are: 10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come. Mormon 5:8-10 If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who the Lamanites are??? 4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews. 5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are. As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned: “And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?” Mormon 5:22 That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity. If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are: “These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).
The New Jerusalem will be built within the land of the Jaredites (Ether 13:2-6). The New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri, specifically Jackson County (Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-4). Therefore, wherever you place your Book of Mormon geography, Jackson County, Missouri, must be part of what was the land of the Jaredites in some way. In the Heartland Model, Jackson County, Missouri, is part of what used to be the hunting preserve of the Jaredites.
The New Jerusalem will be built on the American Continent. At the time Joseph declared this, in what is now the 10th article of faith, the American Continent included all the Americas. The New Jerusalem is now Salt Lake City. The Lord required the work no more in Jackson county ( check out Doctrine and Covenants 124:49-51. Yes the jaradites were within the American Continent as defined by Joseph.
@@watcherpalmerlds To my knowledge, the New Jerusalem has not been built yet. Which prophet has declared Salt Lake City to be the New Jerusalem? Or simply, what is your reference for that statement?
@ The dedicatory prayer of the salt lake temple. “In past ages Thou didst inspire with Thy Holy Spirit Thy servants, the prophets, to speak of a time in the latter days when the mountain of the Lord’s house should be established in the tops of the mountains, and should be exalted above the hills. We thank Thee that we have had the glorious opportunity of contributing to the fulfillment of these visions.” This refers to the prophecy in Isaiah 2:3. The footnote for this prophecy refers to the New Jerusalem! LeGrand Richards in a conference talk entitled “In the Mountain of the Lord’s house” refers to this as well. These are just a couple of examples. Zion and the New Jerusalem can be used interchangeably. If this is the case, Zion is where we have a temple, and Salt Lake City is the center stake of Zion! This is all my opinion.
I used to live in the Rochester area and I used to go to Palmyra and hike around. I combed every inch of the Hill Camorah looking to see if I could find anything interesting. The best thing about Palmyria is they have a pretty good pizza joint there.
In the early 1990's the Church tweaked the Cumorah pageant which precipitated the need to dig into the hill and rearrange the set. Kathy Burris a local historian states that during this time, one of the senior missionaries at the site asked her if she wanted to see something special. She was ushered into a storage room at Cumorah and saw dozens and dozens of boxes full of arrowheads and other artifacts. The construction works had unearthed them in the process of digging around. The Church asked the contractor to quietly and discreetly store everything they found. They did not want anything leaked to the public for fear of a mass "run" to the Hill which could potentially cause liability issues and safety concerns during excavation. Not to mention it could hold up the process of things and they were on a a very tight deadline. She remembers how in awe she was to see so many boxes. The missionary told her not to touch any and that he probably shouldn't have showed her but he knew she would appreciate it. It wasn't but a few days later that same older missionary approached Kathy that when he went to the storage room that day, the boxes were all gone. He said he believed the Church had come and quietly removed them in the middle of the night for safety reasons. They could only speculate that they had been moved to the Granite faults in SLC.
@ People do find stone arrowheads in that part of New York. I have one that was plowed up in my friend’s field. My uncle in Utah would plow up grinding stones, scrappers and arrow heads. Those were obsidian. The arrowhead from western New York is a different kind of stone.
I have always believed that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica, near and around Guatemala, with the River Sidon being, the Usumacinta River. There is better evidence that there are a lot of Mayan ruins that could be tied to the Nephites.
Hey Watcher Palmer, good to see your video this morning. I go and have always, with the church position. I also go with Cardio Mirical. I know what works for me.
A story from around 1844 concerning the Prophet Joseph Smith and a local farmer. One day the family noticed the pigs were feeding in the wood and rooted up an evidently ancient mound, unearthing some bones, the father discovered that it was a human skeleton of immense proportions. Among the bones was a huge skull. the father drove the pigs out of that field and brought the skull to the house to show the family. He held it up over his own face. It was so large it frightened his wife and the children terribly. He took it and went back and in excavating further he found twelve giant bodies buried in the form of a wheel, with heads to the center forming the hub. they were between seven and eight feet tall. While he was thus engaged, the Prophet Joseph Smith stopped by on horseback. Inquiring what the father was about, he soon discovered the size of the skeltons and remarked, "Jacob those were Jaredites. Cover them up and let them rest...fence them in so nothing can disturb them further." Jacob did as he was told sacredly performing the request and protected them from further harm.
Good comments and insights. I'm more of a heartland believer. Basically, it just feels right to me. I think the weather aspect is interesting but not enough to make a difference-people have lived in harsh climates and have thrived for eons. And we know that weather and climate change over decades. I look at lot at the destruction before Christ appeared.That was devastation at it's worst. I'm not seeing that in Meso thought. Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
Massive destruction in mesoamerica. A whole city sunk into lake Atitlon in Guatemala. The destruction occurred in the first century AD. Most geologists agree that the destruction that occurred at the crucifixion of Christ as recorded in the Book of Mormon is attributed to volcanic activity. Many volcanoes in Mesoamerica, virtually none in the heartland.
The geography must fit the narrative. I refer you to "Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon", written by Dr. John L. Lund. Please read the book with an open mind.
Here is a story from before the BofM was published: A couple of missionaries were visiting a home where a woman by the name of Dils who was a Sutton when she was a little girl lived. After enquiring who they were and where they were going, she stated that she had never seen but one Mormon before (the missionaries) but he passed by without her getting to hear him speak. Yet she believed that this land had previously been inhabited by an intelligent people. She said her father was a stone cutter and lived on the Little Miamma River in Ohio when she was a girl. One day when he was quarrying stone he found in a bed of rock all the bones of a mans body. He fetched them home and put them under his bed. On the following morning he told his family that the man to whom the bones belonged to had come to his bed in the middle of the night. The man told him his age and that he belonged to a people that were scattered from the tower of Babel when the Lord confounded the language and they were brought to this land. Here they became a numerous people. They began to have contentions among them and so in those days the Lord raised up a prophet who prohesied that if they did not cease their fighting that he only should be left of all the people in the land, and that it did prove so that they were all slain except himself and the other leader and he finally overcame him. He tarried until another people came and found him and he lived with them 9 moons and died. They buried him there where Mr. Sutton found his bones. Mr. Sutton's testimony came about 15 or 20 years before th Book of Mormon came forth. Points of thought: Mrs. Dils had never conversed with a Mormon before this visit or knew about the BofM. The bones that her father found were in OHIO. If this story is accepted as a genuine secondary source, "Coriantumr" was found not far from the New York Cumorah, suporting a "1 Hill." Burying Coraintumr on the Little Miami river would make it part of the Land Bountiful next to the Land Desolation.
@@sarahpeacock9686 the first missionaries were called and started to serve after the Book of Mormon was published. This story starts out with a false claim. Not sure this holds much water.
You should volunteer for the debate brother Palmer! I heard when they couldn’t find anyone for the Meso side, they decided to go with one of the guys from Ward Radio. I forgot his name and I guess he’s somewhat of a Meso guy but I would love to hear your views
Jerry Grover has done extensive reasearch on the gegraphy of the BofM. His book by that name goes into great depth on the geology of the Sorenson model. It is available free on line for anyone to read, it is technical, however. He has also done forensic linguistic studies asociated with theBofM.
Love you Brother but It’s heartland all day long… no 2 hill cumorahs… what Joseph Smith said about walking across the plains of the Nephites, Zelph etc etc… also that not just the plates but the entire room full of them in the hill cumorah IN NEW YORK!!! Adam ondi omen here in the heartland… this is a covenant land and what Bruce Porter talks about with the land deed… it ALL aligns with the heartland USA and BoM story. Agree to disagree… and the thing that all the meso’s work for the church is bs too… they just puss out every time… you should go debate Rod Meldrum… that would be awesome!!! Anyway still love you to death!! You are the best and I appreciate all you do!!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
@@mrmod123 Yes LOOK at what Joseph Smith Jr. said about Zelph. A righteous Lamanite warrior. While in the area of The Book Of Mormon, after the resurrection Lamanites are only those who deny Jesus Christ, so no righteous Lamanites where the narrative of The Book Of Mormon took place. And at the time Zelph was buried, there were no wars and so no warriors in the area covered in The Book Of Mormon. So either Joseph Smith Jr. got everything wrong about Zelph and is a false prophet, or Zelph didn't live where The Book Of Mormon occurred.
@@mrmod123 Either Joseph Smith Jr. got everything wrong about Zelph, or Zelph didn't live where The Book Of Mormon happened. For Joseph Smith Jr. called Zelph a righteous Lamanite warrior. Those called Lamanites after the resurrection were only those who denied Jesus Christ, so no righteous Lamanites. And at the time the mound was made, there were no wars, and couldn't be warriors. So Zelph could only be a true prophecy if the Heartland model is false.
@@bartonbagnes4605 There isn't necessarily a dichotomy. Lamanites and Nephites spread throughout North and South America. JS speaking about Zelph doesn't conclusively put the main BOM narrative in the U.S.
@fidtru8615 What Joseph Smith Jr. said about Zelph makes it impossible for the Heartland to be where The Book Of Mormon took place. Joseph Smith Jr. said Zelph was a righteous Lamanite warrior. Some time between 110 A.D. and 194 A.D. there began to be Lamanites, specifically because they rebelled from the Church and didn't believe in Jesus Christ, and from that time on all those who rejected Jesus Christ became Lamanites, and those who believed in some form of Jesus Christ were Nephites. So there were no righteous Lamanites, not in the area covered in The Book Of Mormon. And wars didn't start again until 321 A.D. in The Book Of Mormon, but the mound Zelph was buried in was finished by 250 A.D. So no wars or warriors at the time of Zelph, not where The Book Of Mormon happened anyways. So either Joseph Smith Jr. got everything wrong about Zelph, or Zelph didn't live in the area covered by The Book Of Mormon.
In the early days of the church (pre-Utah) in many members patriarchal blessings had a statement that they would help the Lamanites to receive their promised blessings. At this point in history this would have seemed to indicate the native peoples of north-America, it could also be referring to something that will occur during the millennium. The work among the north American native people does not seem to have moved forward with the same pace as those from other areas. The following scripture regarding the work among the Lamanites, states that this work among them will be a sign that the Lord has commenced the fulfilling of his covenants to the house of Israel: 7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed ( the indigenous people of the America’s) shall begin to know these things-it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel. 3 Nephi 12 There are at least three other events noted in scripture that are given as a sign that the Lord is about to fulfill his covenants to the house of Israel. What is interesting about these additional events, that stands out, is that not any of these events have taken place yet! First there is the collapse of the great and abominable in the following verse it states that Lord is about to fulfill his covenants to the house of Israel when this occurs. We find this in Nephi’s vison and from one of Nephi’s “looks”: 17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel. 1 Nephi 14 Verse 17 is a point of reference, a time when this is going to take place. Also note that it states that it is the preparing the way. A second sign or point of reference in the Book of Mormon regarding the Lord fulfilling his covenants to the house of Israel comes from the words of Moroni: Ether CHAPTER 4 Moroni is commanded to seal up the writings of the brother of Jared-They will not be revealed until men have faith even as the brother of Jared-Christ commands men to believe His words and those of His disciples-Men are commanded to repent, believe the gospel, and be saved. 15 …yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel. 16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed. The coming forth of the writings of John, that were hidden up, will be a signal that the covenants of the Lord regarding the house of Israel are about to be fulfilled.
@@watcherpalmerlds Exactly. Are the north American native peoples more direct descendants of the Lamanites??? The quorum of the Twelve is also very aware of pace of the work in North America. I have something more I can include if You Tube will let me.
I don't know if you know Elder Echo Hawk, he was born in Cody, Wyoming. He is a member of the Pawnee tribe. He served as an area seventy and previously had served as a stake president. Prior to this he was the first Indian state attorney general for Idaho and then served under President Obama as assistant secretary for Indian Affairs for the U.S. Department of the Interior. He was in a meeting with the Quorum of twelve and some additional leaders, this is a transcript of his account which he gave just a few weeks ago at the Gathering of Tribes conference on Saturday, March 23, in Mesa, Arizona. This is taken from an audio recording. The point made in this meeting is that the indigenous people of the America's are clearly descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples, while this makes no mention of the Hopewell civilization by extrapolation they would of course be included , The following is his account of what took place in this meeting with the first presidency that took place perhaps around 2018: “when I'd been asked to to make another presentation about Native American Affairs in the church structure as the meeting concluded I'd done my part President Boyd K Packer who was serving as the president of the quorum of the 12 looked at his Brethren of the Quorum of the Twelve and the seven presidents and the presiding Bishopric and then he turned to Elder Porter who is a general Authority 70 that oversees and assist that committee and he said Elder Porter open your Book of Mormon and he told all of the brethren in the quorum of the 12 and the seven presidents, presiding Bishopric open your Book of Mormon to the title page... THE BOOK OF MORMON AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BYTHE HAND OF MORMON UPON PLATES TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites-Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile and he said Elder Porter read it. You know President Packer is a very strong leader and when he says something people don't hesitate he's the president of the Quorum of the twelve and he said to Elder Porter read it. So Elder Porter, he opened his Book of Mormon he says wherefore it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi and also of the lamanites written to the lamanites who are a remnant of the House of Israel. President Packer said to Elder Porter stop, and he said Elder Porter read it again. So Elder Porter read it again “an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi and also of the lamanites written to the lamanites who are remnant of the House of Israel” and he told him stop at that point a second time. Then he said to Elder Porter read it again remember this is the Quorum of the 12 in the room. With the seven presidents and the presiding bishopric and Elder Packer's teaching something here and he says to Elder Porter read it again “it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi and also of the Lamanites written to the lamanites who are remnant of the House of Israel”, stop and he said president Packer says Brethren he said our missionaries are taking the Book of Mormon to the Far Corners of the Earth in all of our missions you know tens of thousands of young men and young women are taking the Book of Mormon to the people as a part of the Gathering of Israel but we're not doing enough to take it to the descendants of the people of the Book of Mormon you got that message from the highest leadership in the church. This is the Gathering and we need to do more brothers and sisters we have a personal responsibility yes you and you and you and you have a personal responsibility to prepare for the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ a personal responsibility it's not just you we have a responsibility as a group of the remnant of House of Israel to do our part to prepare for the second coming of the Savior Jesus Christ.
The American Indian is the remnant. Joseph Smith taught them. He didn't take that record to Guatemala and tell them they were the remnant. No one reads 2nd Nephi. Sad.
Heartland is like fitting a square peg in a round hole. I am fairly certain that the main BOM narrative occurred in Mesoamerica. But Lehi's seed traveled up into the U.S. and to the south into South America and had different societies. Surely they retained many of the same traditions/religion, etc. So, yes you are going to find evidence of Nephites and Lamanites in the U.S./Canada, but not the main narrative.
The Land of Promise and the New Jerusalem: Ether 13:2-6 states the New Jerusalem will be built upon the Jaredite lands. Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-4 states the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri. Ether 13:20-21 says Coriantumr would live to see other people inherit the lands of the Jaredites, and he would receive a burial by them. That would mean the Mulekites, at least, would be settling in Jaredite lands. I believe the Mulekites and Lehites settled in the Jaredite hunting preserve (Ether 10:19), and the land of Desolation was the Jaredite Civilization core where most of them lived. The Mulekites had first landed in the land of Desolation (Alma 22:30), but I think they didn't settle there or close by because they didn't want to settle in the land of rotting Jaredite corpses. Independence, Missouri, was called the center place of the land of promise (Doctrine and Covenants 57:1-3). Rod Meldrum has suggested Independence, Missouri, is roughly the center place of the contiguous United States. A more correct center of the contiguous United States would be Lebanon, Kansas 267 miles to the west. However, Independence, Missouri, does fit being the center point between "the hill Cumorah or east sea to the Rocky Mountains" as described in the Zelph Mound account. Therefore, I'd say the borders of the Promised Land would be more like the borders of the United States in 1830 when the Church was restored. It wouldn't need to be exact, but I think they roughly overlap. I'd say the main events of the Book of Mormon happened in that area, which is right where the Heartland Model is. I don't see any other model lining up with those revelations.
Well you do love to stir the pot. While Book of Mormon geography isn't essential to our salvation, it sure is interesting! I studied the Meso books for years and found it very possible. Then about 10 years ago my wife started pushing the Heartland model on me. So I have studied that a lot and find it very persuasive. I 100% believe that the "this land" in the Book of Mormon is the USA--a chosen, choice land, without kings, a land of liberty, land of the Restoration, the New Jerusalem, and the driving engine powering Ephraim's work to take the gospel to the world.
The biggest problem I have with the Meso America theory is that it that there have been too many civilizations for too long. There is no way the Nephites and Lamanites came around 600 bc formed 2 large civilizations and not attracted attention from the other civilizations that existed there.
@@watcherpalmerldsNot really. The eastern part of the United was not that populated around 600 BC. There was the Adena people, which mainly lived around the Ohio valley. The Hopewell people were just barely beginning at that time, wherever they came from. They wouldn't become a large civilization and over take the Adena for a couple hundred years. There was lots of unpopulated land, especially in the southern part of the USA. This is baseoff main stream current archeology, not LDS archeology, which, let's face it, is somewhat biased and questionable.
@ well you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say there was little population in the Heartland compared to Mesoamerica, but then say there were millions of people in the Heartland as reported in the Book of Mormon. This is what I always find with heartlanders, they cherry pick to make things fit. IMO
A couple of things....Ether watched the destrustions of the Jaredites from the cavity of a rock, kind of sounds like a cave. so a cave is needed near the battle and from which one could abserve the goings of without discovery. Mormon buried the plates in the hill of the final battle, apparently wagon loads. Perhaps in the same cave. These records are hidden up unto the Lord for a purpose. When will they come forth? I dont think they are in the hill in up state NY. So where are they?
I don't understand this issue at all. Whether they landed in Mesoamerica or further north, some of them obviously migrated up to the palmrya area, Moroni being one of them, over a period of probably hundreds of years. What does it matter? I don't get it.
The answer is: EASILY! ("Like shootin' fish in a barrel") Once you escape from Meso-Orthodoxy for a moment, GOOGLE people who have your answer--simple and complete--such as Rod Meldrum or Wayne May or Jonathon Neville (I know, the Meso-Marauders clutch their pearls and feint at the mention of such people--but, in the immortal words of Elder Boyd K Packer: "Latter Day Saints are not exempt from exercising common sense." Go get some for free from one of those people :--D
Personally I don’t need physical tangible evidence to prove the BOM is true. I received the most powerful witness of my life from the Holy Ghost that penetrated every fiber in my body that it was absolutely true. That was enough for me.
Meldrum and May have a financial interest in pushing the Heartland theory but it simply doesn’t work geographically. Yes, the Nephites and Hagoth migrated north into the US but this was outside the BoM account.
I don't see how Hagoth migrates north and is not heard of again, while Moroni migrates north to Cumorah and misses Hagoth. Then Chief Midegah claims that the tribes regularly migrated north-south and KNEW of each other. Something doesn't add up.
@ Hagoth eventually took his ships to Polynesia. This was some 400 years before Moroni. Alma tells of other groups of Nephities who migrated north. We can safely assume that over time they fought and mixed with the indigenous peoples of North America.
I guess the promised land must really be in Meso America then, since they were led to the promised land. We’ve been deceived thinking it’s Jackson County then.
@ The “promised land” has always, and forever, been a specific location. It’s where the garden of Eden was. It’s where the New Jerusalem or the city of Zion is to be established. It’s not some dual continent wide location. The only reason that Meso America is even considered is because of ancient ruins that were discovered. It was concluded by BYU PhD’s that those must be the location of Book of Mormon lands, even though those living in Jerusalem at the time of Jeremiah never built structures like the ones discovered there. They used wood - look at Solomons temple, built with the cedars of Lebanon. Joseph Smith did not believe they lived in Meso America. Only BYU professors do. I can just picture Moroni trekking back and forth from somewhere in Mexico to bring the plates to a place where some future prophet was going to live, just so he could find them close to home. It would have been so much easier to have him born in Mexico and the restoration to take place there. Common sense would tell us that the Lord doesn’t employ huge moving companies to transport records from one distant place to another just to confuse or deceive people. O top of that, Moroni would have had to construct the Hill Cumorah in New York in order to hide the records, and make sure that there was another hill nearby from which the records were transferred. How deceptive. It might be interesting to see what is taking place at the Hill Cumorah in New York in terms of research right now by thhe Church. . Why was the pageant really cancelled? The Mulekites did not follow the same path to the promised land that Lehi and his family travelled, and yet were in the same vicinity. I wonder how they managed to travel all the way across the North American landscape just so they could be close enough for Mosiah and his people to discover them. I believe what Joseph Smith said about the Nephites and Lamanites and the land that they possessed. Those who are researching the Heartland are doing an amazing job of establishing geography, and in a way that meets all the criteria for sound research. Meso American theory has them jumping all over the place. The promised land is exactly where Joseph Smith said it is. It has forever been there. Otherwise, why wasn’t the garden of Eden in Meso America and that is where everything occurred. It would have been far easier to keep things consistent than to pretend it was in one place when really it was another.
If you go a liitle further south of Keokuk you will find they have very little snow and a much warmer climate just a few miles apart from adam ondi ahman and other northern missouri locations.
@@noliakrouton1115 that’s fine, but for many years the Nephites were north of the narrow neck of land. That would put the Nephites in Canada according to the Heartland theory. Lots of cold and lots of snow.
With research one will find out where the whole meso-america story line came from. Hint: a well meaning member published it in the Time And Seasons while the editor (Joseph Smith Jr.) was in jail.
After learning so much about Heber C Kimball and his womanizing on his mission to England and how he treaded women in the Church, I personally would newer take anything he says as gospel truth.
And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a mighty nation among the Gentiles, yea, even upon the face of this land; and by them shall our seed be scattered. 1 Nephi 22:7 I wonder if Nephi knew where he was and where that great nation would be.
Yo da best, Bro Palmer, but since climate is your biggest objection to the Heartland model ... you realize, don't you, why Greenland is called Greenland?
@@watcherpalmerlds And you know this how? We are not as smart as we sometimes think. I believe we are missing the mark here. The simplest explanation is usually the truest. The Hill Cumorah is in modern day New York. Scholars (Meso) vs Prophets (Heartland).
@@watcherpalmerlds Well, the climate alarmists (like Michael Mann with his hokey hockey stick graph) really want you to believe such things. They fight tooth and nail against the notion that climate has fluctuated in regular cycles throughout the last 2000-6000 years--though other scientists argue for such recent climate diversity. The Vikings actually farmed Greenland for 400 years and raised Barley--a warm weather crop (the kind of facts Al Gore might ignore as "inconvenient truths"). When you get past Michael Mann, Algore and other climate storm-troopers (a serendipitous pun, eh?), you find enormous variation among scientists about such things (even while risking funding and fellowship among the enforced orthodoxy). Some scientists posit a major warming period reached its peak around the time that the Jaredites--and eventually the Mulekites and Nephites--would have arrived in America: "Scientists know that the climate around Greenland became warmer towards the end of the last glacial period some 10,000 years ago.... The new findings indicate that the ice reached its minimum after the sea in West Greenland started to become warmest around 5,000 years ago..... The period from 3,000 to 5,000 years ago is consistent with analyses of marine sediment cores, which show that during this same period, more marine invertebrates lived in the sea in West Greenland" (ScienceNordic Journal) If Greenland was drastically warming at those times, imagine how toasty it got 2000 miles further south, in America.
Excessive focus on the where distracts from the beautiful eternal truths of the sacred record of the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
@@watcherpalmerldsnone the less, I too enjoy studying and pondering the different ideas. I enjoyed the way you presented the different ideas, and your conclusions directly match mine.
@@jarenthompson915because it’s enjoyable and pulls us into the sacred record, as long as we focus on the true reason that we have been blessed with this marvelous work.
Hey, Scott...I thought I would post what I sent to you a while back about ChatGPT's "viewpoint" on this issue: Choosing the **most likely theory** for the geographic setting of the **Book of Mormon** depends on how one weighs the available evidence and interprets the text itself. Given the current state of the evidence-archaeological, geographic, and textual-I'll provide a nuanced perspective that takes into account both the strengths and weaknesses of the **Heartland** and **Mesoamerican** theories. ### Key Considerations: 1. **Archaeological Evidence:** - The **Mesoamerican Theory** has the clear advantage when it comes to archaeological support. Mesoamerica is home to some of the world's most well-documented pre-Columbian civilizations, such as the **Olmec**, **Maya**, and **Teotihuacan**, all of which exhibit advanced technologies, urban centers, and a cultural richness that aligns with the Book of Mormon’s descriptions of the Nephites and Lamanites. The **Heartland Theory**, by contrast, struggles to find direct archaeological evidence that could conclusively match the scale of civilization described in the Book of Mormon. 2. **Geographic Fit:** - The **Mesoamerican Theory** also has a stronger geographic alignment with the Book of Mormon. Descriptions of a "narrow neck of land" and large bodies of water (Pacific and Gulf of Mexico) are much more easily mapped to the geography of Mesoamerica, particularly the **Isthmus of Tehuantepec**. The Heartland Theory's reliance on the geography of the northeastern United States (including the Great Lakes, Mississippi River, etc.) does not align as neatly with the specific Book of Mormon descriptions (e.g., a narrow neck of land separating two large bodies of water). 3. **Cultural Parallels:** - The **Mesoamerican Theory** benefits from its proximity to well-documented ancient cultures with complex religious, political, and military structures. The **Heartland Theory** draws on general parallels with indigenous cultures like the **Hopewell** or **Mississippian** but lacks the same level of sophistication seen in Mesoamerica. Additionally, the evidence for advanced metallurgy and writing systems in Mesoamerica (which correspond to the Book of Mormon's mention of metalworking and written language) is more robust than anything found in pre-Columbian North America. 4. **Textual and Doctrinal Considerations:** - Both theories rely heavily on the interpretation of the text, and each proponent could argue that the text is flexible enough to support their theory. The **Heartland Theory** often stresses the proximity to **Cumorah** (in New York), tying the narrative closely to the early history of the LDS Church. However, this is more a matter of tradition than textual evidence-though the **Hill Cumorah** in New York is important to LDS history, the text itself does not explicitly identify it as the final battleground for all of Nephite civilization. The **Mesoamerican Theory** has a broader geographical canvas that fits many more aspects of the Book of Mormon narrative (large cities, extensive wars, long migrations, and trade routes). 5. **Genetic and Linguistic Evidence:** - There has been ongoing debate over genetic and linguistic evidence connecting Native American populations to the ancient peoples of the Book of Mormon. While some have argued for genetic markers or linguistic features, mainstream geneticists and anthropologists have not found conclusive evidence to connect Native American populations with Book of Mormon peoples. However, **Mesoamerican** cultures do show evidence of complex interactions (e.g., the migration patterns and trade networks that could align with some of the Book of Mormon's narrative of interaction between the Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites). ### Conclusion: **Mesoamerican Theory is the Most Likely, Based on Evidence** While both theories are highly speculative and lack definitive, irrefutable evidence, the **Mesoamerican Theory** appears to be the more plausible of the two based on the current evidence in the following ways: 1. **Archaeological Evidence:** Mesoamerican civilizations exhibit clear cultural and technological features that align well with the Book of Mormon's descriptions of advanced civilizations. There is no parallel in the archaeological record of the Heartland to such advanced societies. 2. **Geographic Alignment:** The geography of Mesoamerica better matches the geographical descriptions in the Book of Mormon, particularly the concept of a "narrow neck of land" and the positioning of large bodies of water. The Heartland's geography, while offering some general features like rivers and hills, does not fit as precisely. 3. **Cultural Parallels:** The Book of Mormon's descriptions of cities, warfare, religious practices, and the decline of a great civilization are much more easily matched with the well-documented history of Mesoamerican cultures than with North American pre-Columbian societies. 4. **Textual Interpretation:** The Mesoamerican Theory allows for a broader, more flexible interpretation of the text that can account for the scope of Book of Mormon events, such as large-scale migrations and the destruction of entire civilizations. The Heartland Theory, by contrast, may be more difficult to reconcile with some of the Book of Mormon's more expansive narrative elements. **However, it’s important to note:** - No theory can currently be proven definitively. Much of the debate comes down to interpretation and the limits of current archaeological and historical evidence. - The Heartland Theory is still a viable model, particularly for those who are drawn to the significance of **Cumorah** and the early history of the LDS Church. - Both theories are open to refinement as new archaeological discoveries are made, so neither is "settled" in the academic sense. In short, the **Mesoamerican Theory** is the most likely, but it remains a hypothesis-one that fits better with the available evidence, yet still requires much more exploration and verification.
Yeah, hard to beat the excitement of having some insentient algorithm think --and decide--for you . . . (And this is scary--the poster is NOT being ironic; he feels genuinely enlightened and delighted to have AI resolve the issue for him ... Have you asked AI whom you should marry? Or vote for? Or how to best raise your children?)
@ You’re overthinking it. It’s just another or several other data points to help you sort through all the emotional attachment one might have with what ever you’re investigating. On the BOM geography issue, I don’t really care either way. I just like truth seeking about anything. ChatGPT is not perfect, and if you happen to know a thing or two about the subject at hand, and push back, it will gladly cede you some ground, unlike some people, like yourself maybe, whose emotional attachment to their point of view will not allow them to bend at all.
@watcherpalmerlds (and bountiful life dude): Whoa ... Don't get between AI Daddy and it's disciples ... especially when AI gives the answer they want to hear perhaps ... (So now you see AI as a "revealer of truths"? Is it "Elder AI" from now on? I thought the revelatory process was a bit more involved than asking Bill Gates' robot buddy. Alma 32 could have freed-up a lot of space by skipping all those study and testing verses and just say: "Elder ChatGbt knows. Quit making this whole thought process harder than it needs to be." And we can streamline DC 6 also: "You must study it out ... or just ask AI." (Just having some fun here, hermanos. I hope all goes well. But I am a bit surprised how testy you've been in your responses with this video ... something else going on here, Brother Palmer? I wish you well.)
I just don’t understand the drive people have to prove the location. If a testimony is dependent on either of these theories being true it is a very weak testimony. As a matter of curiosity, fine, because most of this is based on supposition, but facts are few. We will all know for a fact where it was in less than a hundred years, so why argue?
If these words of Jesus Christ aren’t clear enough about the geography… 3 Nephi 21:4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in THIS LAND, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
So is “this land” referring to the time of the Book of Mormon, the time of Joseph Smith, or today? Remember that boarders are fairly recent. It does make a difference.
I believe Christ was referring to all 3 eras. He was speaking directly to the Nephites and Lamanites in their land, the same land that the Gentiles would inherit after their destruction. The same land that the Lehites and Mulekites inherited after the Jaredites fell. The same land where Joseph Smith would live upon and bring their record to light and to the seed of their remnant. This same land is free today thanks to the constitution set up by the power of the Father and our founding fathers. Ether 2 speaks of an everlasting decree upon this same land. Have the borders changed? Of course. Is the USA the same exact border? No. But encompassed in and near its general borders is the land of promise. A choice land. I don’t focus on the borders as I do the land. I believe the land where Joseph Smith traversed was essentially the “this land” that Christ spoke and prophesied of.
2 Nephi 21 9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. 13 The envy of Ephraim also shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. Isaiah 35 8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein. 9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: 10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away. D&C 45 66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God; 67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion. 68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety. 69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another. 70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand. 71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.
Dr. Danial Peterson, Of F.A.I.R., formally F.A.R.M.S. . Has lectured on this. Dr. Peterson ain't exactly the dim bulb on the tree. Who would I to be to argue with him.
Climate and Miss. River are problems no doubt for heartland,, but ive seen how much a river can move in 100 yrs, let alone thousands. (100's of feet). And having a large flooded plain, i.e. lake or sea is as plausible as 2 hill cumorahs. There is a lot of evidence for little ice ages and warming trends over 1000 yr timeframes.
The Bahamas, Cuba, DR, Puerto Rico, Jamaica… really? Let’s be serious. Who does the Lord himself refer to as the Lamanites? The American Indians of the United States, namely the Northeast, that were forced west of Missouri.
@ Columbus is prophesied in the Book of Mormon as being led to the promised land. He never landed in the USA. So the promised land included all of the Americas.
Fair enough. I do realize that we have been taught that the man referred to in 1 Nephi 13 is Columbus. Could it be another? Possibly. The Reformationists had a much larger influence on the Restoration than the Catholics. And isn’t Puerto Rico part of the USA? Haha!
I love you and your podcasts, but in this particular case I am going to have to go with the prophet Joseph , he said it was to heart land area. Whichever, the Book of Mormon is true and translated through the Urim and thumim not a peep stone in a hat. Just my opinion but well backed by the PROPHET Joseph vs the PRESIDENT Nelson video.
@WatcherpalmerLDS The Mississippi River NORTH of the confluence with the Ohio river, is referred to as the River Sidon, in the Heartland model. South of the confluence, the lower Mississippi is considered an embayment - i.e., the thought being that it was much wider when Lehi & Mulek's ships landed... possibly about 50 miles wide, similar to the Gulf of Aqaba separating the Sinai peninsula from Saudi Arabia... or possibly even compared to the Gulf of California, separating Baja from Mexico proper. This would have changed at the time of the destruction in 3 Nephi 8 (akin to the claim by Elder LeGrand Richards in "A Marvelous Work and a wonder", regarding the Washoe indian's claim that what we know call ancient Lake Bonneville between the Sierra Nevada mountains of California and the Wasatch Front in Utah, disappeared many moons ago when the earth shook and the sun darkened (3 Nephi 8)).
My belief leans towards heartland although I really don’t care. My reasoning is Cumorah is in New York. Also there is not one thing about Mexico having anything to do with being a promised land, more like hundreds of years of desolation and poverty. The United Started is generally the promised land and blessed as long as we follow God. The proof is in the blessings, USA blessed others not. also Joseph Smith said so. Period end of discussion😂
Hey Palmer, I just started reading your or rather listening to your podcast and you say that the heartland people are biased but you yourself in your opening critique of distance or bias and are using false information because you say that the heartland model is thousands of miles in reality if you take the place of first landing, say near Tallahassee Florida And you as the crow flies up to Detroit Michigan it’s only 800 miles And we all know that they move north up towards Tennessee, according to the heartland, as there is a temple in the bottom of a lake that the Tennessee Valley Authority flooded, which is a Hebrew temple, which could’ve been Nephi‘s first temple so the distance, then is consolidate it from Tennessee to Detroit area. All of this area is under 1000 miles bro so you have to get your number straight if you want credibility in your analysis.
Its good to remember where we believe Adam and Eve and these pre-flood people lived. Central American pyramids may have originally been built pre-Noah and then added onto. There are theories that the city of Enoch may be what is now Gulf of Mexico. Joseph Smith said the Ark was built where the Carolinas are now. I did hear Wayne May speak in Morgsn County in 1992, still have a few of his "Ancient America" magazines from 1991-92. Consider the Heartland as very plausible and most correct. Pilgrims/Puritans landed in Promised land farther north than they had planned. Moroni dedicates land where Manti and St. George temples stand. There may have been record depository in or near Cumorah, so Moroni, sfter 30 yrs, traveled a long way back and buried plates there. DNA evidence that closely matches old Mediterranean/Israel peoples seems to be native tribles in eastern U.S./Canada.
I would have to disagree with you on zelf bone. If you say it would be not that old. You don't believe in Kenawick man ? His bones were found in the Columbia river bank , in water ! 9000 yrs old so you must say those are fake too.
I am maxing out on what You-Tube will let me include. This is a continuation of my previous post: A third sign that points to this fulfilling of the covenants to the house of Israel actually takes place in the temple in Heaven: Revelations CHAPTER 8 John sees fire and desolation poured out during the seventh seal and preceding the Second Coming. 1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand. 5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake. 6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound. Revelations 8:1-6 So before the seven angels sound their trumps, an angel approaches the golden altar with a censer and much smoke that represents the prayers of the saints. Anciently, each year on the Day of Atonement after ten symbolic days of tribulation the High Priest enters the holy of holies and burns incense before the golden altar. One of the things represented by the golden altar are the covenants the Lord made with the house of Israel. John is being shown that this is the time for the Lord to fulfill his covenants with Israel. How will we know that this event in the temple in heaven has taken place? Note that it tells us that when this takes place “there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake”. It doesn't say earthquakes, but states earthquake in the singular. Is this the earthquake that the temple in Salt Lake is being retrofitted for??? Verse 6 then tells us that the seven trumpets are now prepared to sound. Clearly these three signs or points of reference have not yet occurred, so logically how can the sign regarding the Lamanites have come to pass yet? I have repeated this verse below: 7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed ( the indigenous people of the America’s) shall begin to know these things-it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel. 3 Nephi 12 The work of gathering scattered Israel has been going on for some time now and yet these events that signify the fulfilling of the Lord's covenants to the house of Israel have not happened. So what is being referred to by the fulfillment of these covenants? Many of the Book of Mormon prophets saw our day but then as they went to communicate this to us they were warned not to write these things. This includes: 1. Nephi, “I, Nephi, am forbidden”; 2. Moroni saw “great and marvelous things” but he tells us “I was about to write more, but I am forbidden”; 3. Mormon stated “Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it”. The last latter day event that they include is the fall of Babylon.
Curious on opinions but why do you suppose God has chosen to withhold the geographical proof of the BOM? Most of the Bible has been proven with geography, even Noah’s arc is possibly known. I don’t buy the idea that it’s to promote faith by keeping the full knowledge from us, as that wasn’t needed for the Bible. I think what is cool is that despite internal disagreements on the exact location, the BOM has 2 possible locations that fit, despite critics claiming that there are zero.
The Book of Mormon is a spiritual journey for now. I firmly believe that in the near future we will be allowed to know where it all took place. I do look forward to that day.
Well I believe a majority happened in what is now US but some of it is probably in south America. The people moved. Rod has a lot to say about DNA as well. There is new evidence there too. But in the long run I firmly believe in the wisdom of the Lord in not verifying where it all took place.
Do you accept the secular science of an old earth with humans living on it for hundreds of thousands of years? D&C says the age of man is 7000 years including the 1000 years of the millennium. The time scales assumed by secular science could easily be exaggerated/overstated in which case the warmer climate of the past could be a lot more recent than hundreds of thousands of years. Watch out for letting secular ideas inform your views.
@@watcherpalmerlds Well, there is plenty of evidence of a far warmer climate in the midwest in the past with essentially no annual snowy seasons for centuries. The question is how long ago in the past. Is it 100s or 10s of thousands of years ago or only a few thousand? I think today's science consensus relies on inflating historical timelines for much of its atheistic narrative and the events of the past are far closer in time to the present than they believe. There is evidence of human activity throughout the record from this warmer period through to the colder period. I believe Adam and Eve were the first two people to live on this earth and they did so about 6000 years ago, so all human activity occurred from then until now. That places the warmer period somewhere within the right timeframe for the Jaredites through to the Lamanites.
Come on you’re really reaching for straws here Palmer no mention of Snow in the Book of Mormon… Big deal there’s no mention of Snow to any logical degree in the entire New Testament and you just got down talking about a ski resort outside of Jerusalem… Mood point no credibility
All right, I’ve had enough… You’re being intellectually dishonest to protect your own position. You’re not even being forthright… You should come right out and say this video is about substantiating the meso American model… You come across as if you’re being fair and you’re not… Goodbye.
Thank u 4 the subject matter! I know that I instinctively think of the narrow neck of land as the Panama 🇵🇦 Canal, basically! Lot of reasonable points u shared. It sounds possible to me as to your point of view.
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I believe what Joseph Smith said on the Zion's Camp March crossing the plains of the Nephites.
What was the first gospel preached? Galatians 1:9
@@dianetigert1310Acts 2: 36-42, this is the first Gospel preached. You also find it in Hebrews 6: 1-2 and 1 Corinthians 15, they have faith in God the Farther and the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, baptism in similitude of Jesus Christ burial and resurrection, the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands and enduring in righteousness to the end of your life. So that when you are resurrected and brought before Jesus Christ to be judged of your works he will say "Well do thou good and faithful servant."
I also believe what Joseph Smith Jr. said. That there were plains where some Nephites lived at some time. And about the great warrior Zelph a righteous Lamanite. Well where The Book Of Mormon took place there were no righteous Lamanites after the resurrection of Jesus Christ, only those who rejected Jesus Christ were called Lamanites. And at the time Zelph lived, there were no wars where The Book Of Mormon took place, so there could be no great warriors either. So what Joseph Smith Jr. said proves The Book Of Mormon couldn't have taken place in the Heartland.
@@bartonbagnes4605
Isn't it interesting that Jesus taught publicly to the crowds and also privately to His group of disciples..... He also publicly denounced the Jewish religious leadership Matt. 23
As I shared Gal. 1:9 wouldn't anyone who professes to believe take caution? Wasn't the first gospel preached, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey all that I have commanded you.
Wasn't the first gospel preached (the law?)
@dianetigert1310 We are told that the Law of Moses was given because of the disobedience of the children of Israel, but many laws predate the Law of Moses. That is the law that Jesus Christ restored. Called the Law of Grace or Law of Christ. Read the Bible a little more carefully.
Wayne states that in the burial mounds there are parakeets buried, that would indicate very different weather from that time. I’ve never even bothered to consider geography, but I heard Wayne and his arguments are solid
Or it just means that parakeets were traded to those who could afford such luxuries. Birds don't migrate because of cold, they follow food sources. But when people are feeding them, cold weather is not an issue. Parakeets only live six to eighteen years under the best of circumstances anyways.
Where ever the geographic locations of the Book Of Mormon takes place really doesn’t matter to me. I love the message and the Book! Thank you for this! ❤you!
This is the best comment on this subject, it doesn’t matter, the book is true, the principles are sound, its teachings will lead to salvation no matter where it took place. I’ve got way more important things to concern myself with than where it actually took place, no offense to those that like this conversation, but in the grand scheme of things, it’s minor.
@@michaelburns8279 thank you! I totally agree with you!
It does matter.
I have always believed that the Book of Mormon probably took place in South America because they said that the Lamanites would be converted to the book of Mormon in the last days. They said that there was an enormous growth down in Brazil and those areas… Way more growth than what has been going on in any part of America.
Cardio Miracle works for me! Three years now. Over 80 years ago a faithful righteous Primary Teacher testified that most of the events of the Book of Mormon took place in Central and South America. She even had books with pictures as support. It worked for me then. It still works for me today. Maybe the sealed plates will reveal why snow storms are not mentioned. The second testimony and witness of Jesus Christ is true. I love it. Brother Palmer, thank you for your insights.
how many times in the BofM does it say that many groups of people LEFT THE AREA OF ZARAHEMLA and journeyed north / south / east / west.........how many times does it say that the whole face of the land was covered with people and buildings . and then there is the statement AFTER the destructive earthquakes , etc , that the whole face of the land was changed. just like the nephites put all the bodies of the people of the destroyed city of ammoniha all together and covered them with a covering of earth. what do you think the people did to all those DRY BONES they discovered in the north . AND how many times does it say that " a hundreth part " of the history of the people cannot be written .
It’s amazing how many people can’t understand that they easily could travel far distances and that both groups are equally right.
@@deannabuck8324Yes, but The Book Of Mormon only covers a very small area, all others leave the narrative. Even Moroni, after burying all the records in the Hill Cumorah, takes the Golden Plates and travels whithersoever he can to avoid capture by the Lamanites hunting down Nephites to destroy. That means traveling far away from where all the Lamanites gathered for the final battle, the Hill Cumorah.
@@bartonbagnes4605 100%
Book of Mormon Geography
This is a much more complex topic than many realize and that both sides to this argument could be right at same time. The following is my notes from Hugh Nibley.
It comes from Teachings of the Book of Mormon, Transcripts of Lectures Presented to an Honors Book of Mormon Class at Brigham Young University, 1988-1990 Hugh Nibley but I do not have specific page or volume references.
The oversimplified conclusions that members often seem to glom onto of a single point of entry with just one group of people, when fully understood one realizes just how complex this topic is.
We know that there are at least three different groups mentioned within the Book of Mormon the Jaredites, the Mulekites and Lehi’s group. Additionally, there are a number of hints that they were not alone but there were other unrelated groups in the area as well.
Since we can eliminate the possibility of only one location or point of entry since there would be multiple arrival points making both the geography and DNA questions much more complex.
While our leaders have encouraged us not to get into debates regarding specific locations as it relates to the geographical picture, there are a number of more general locational hints provided in the Book of Mormon that are hard to ignore.
For example, the Jaredites being in the land northward.
30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.
Alma 22:30
Note that not only were the Jaradites in the land north, but it tells us that this was also the place of their first landing.
Could the Jaredites have come down the St Lawrence Seaway?
Within the naturally occurring copper found along the borders of the great lakes, there are remnants of extensive ancient copper mines including the stone tools and other implements that were used to secure this copper.
Additionally, the Book of Mormon informs us that the Jaredites were a large people.
26 And it came to pass that they ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow. And they were large and mighty men as to the strength of men.
Ether 15:26
34 And the brother of Jared being a large and mighty man, and a man highly favored of the Lord, Jared, his brother, said unto him: Cry unto the Lord, that he will not confound us that we may not understand our words.
Ether 1:34
Skeletal remains in this same region have been found that are 7 or 8 feet in height, source
The Historical Collections of Ohio, 1849
Bones found in the mounds were of a gigantic structure…
Now turning to the DNA issue, we tend to oversimply and think the Book of Mormon people are alone in America, it seems apparent that there had been other people in the land, and not too far away. Lehi’s family wasn’t the first people. When you find bones, it doesn’t mean they are Nephite, Lamanite, or Jaredite necessarily.
Going south we know that Zarahemla was a Mulekite establishment, perhaps part of what is now known as the Hopewell civilization may have been the Mulekites.
Amalickiah was a Mulekite, his name meaning “my king is Jehovah.” . We forget that Zarahemla wasn’t a Nephite city at all; it was a Mulekite City. The Mulekites were a mixed band, much larger than Lehi’s Group, who came over when Jerusalem fell. We know now from the Lachish letters that the youngest member of the royal family did escape. He would be Mulek, the “little king”. Possibly, they call themselves the Mulekites because he led their particular group. … They not only built the big city of Zarahemla, but they ( included ) almost all the dissenters. Ammon was a Mulekite, a pure descendant of Zeniff.
Returning to the geography questions, we learn that Lehi’s group arrived further south perhaps in the region between North and South America per Helaman 6.
Nephi is freed, and by his prayer the storm ceases-The people arrive in the promised land. About 591-589 B.C.
22 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did guide the ship, that we sailed again towards the promised land.
23 And it came to pass that after we had sailed for the space of many days we did arrive at the apromised land; and we went forth upon the land, and did pitch our tents; and we did call it the promised land.
1 Nephi 18:
Note the geographical details found in Helaman in regards to their point of first landing:
10 Now the land south was called aLehi, and the land north was called bMulek, which was after the cson of Zedekiah; for the Lord did bring Mulek into the land north, and Lehi into the land south.
Helaman 6
Along with this there are frequent indications we will see in the Book of Mormon of ancient and exotic peoples in the background, for example, when Alma went to visit the Zoramites on a mission. They dissented, as you know, and went out. They had only been away from the central culture for a short period. He says they (Alma and his group) were utterly dumbfounded. They were so amazed they didn’t know what to think of it. It absolutely stunned them. They (the Zoramites) had a totally different religion of very exotic things in which they built towers and stairways and all this sort of thing to have prayers. They loaded themselves with all sorts of costly and lavish apparel, and the priests were parading murals, vases, and the reliefs of Central and South America - this lavish, strange religion which was there before. The Zoramites took it up obviously. Almost overnight they had this whole different culture. ( Alma and his brethren ) were completely amazed by what they found, how they had changed everything. They kept some of the old religion and adopted this, that and the other. But who would give them this idea? You don’t just invent a religion whole cloth that way. They came out and picked this up. Including gold in everything for one thing. And they don’t just wear gold, but what else do they wear? They load themselves like a walking Christmas tree, with feathers and all sorts of clinking, rattling, and glittering garbage. Then they parade themselves.
It’s comical in Central America. They overdo it so, whether it’s on the Mayan, or the illustrations
of the Popol Vuh. It shows the grandees parading around with much too much hardware on.
That’s a sign of pride, and it talks a great deal in the Book of Mormon about their precious, costly apparel. It doesn’t say beautiful apparel ever. It just says costly; that’s the main thing.
That’s the only thing that interests us-that it has the proper label on it. The cost is what makes them great. This is the way the people were. “And some were lifted up unto pride and boastings because of their exceedingly great riches.” There are various ways. Boasting doesn’t mean you would have to go and shout it from the housetops.
It’s the same thing with our labels on jeans -our fashionable designer labels and things like that. You can size a person’s wardrobe up when you see it, total up the bill, and decide exactly how much he spent on it. This happens, and we do that deliberately. We try to make it obvious that we are wearing a particular brand of this, that, or the other. They are boasting because of their riches and making their riches obvious. It becomes invidious comparison. Here it gives us the kind of culture they had.
You can see that these are more complex issues than first meets the eye. The inhabitants of early America were a mix of many different cultures.
Thank you so much for your excellent comments. I have lived amongst the native Americans in Alaska, Oklahoma, and the northeast USA. I am a heart lander believer all the way! After witnessing the native customs, I hope more and more research will continue.
Hi, to me it is as simple as the Hopewell indians lived the law of moses. There temples have ramps, which is a requirement for law of moses. What do we see in central America nothing but stairs, which is against law of moses. Just one of many reasons why heartland is correct.
@@chris-mt2he nothing to do with geography, but thanks for your comment.
@@mrbrian87 babel happened before Abraham, so, not Israelite
@BrianTerrill you are wrong the scriptures state it.
@watcherpalmerlds it does because the Hopewell are in the heartland and all their temples had ramps according to law of moses, they also had Hebrew DNA, Hebrew burial rites, swords and armor, walls around the city at the time of moronic. Almost all of their cities had compass and square in the design. Some even minoras. Lets not also forget heartland had migrating beast, buffalo covered the ohio river valley back then. There are no migrating beast in central america.This is all in heartland also joseph smith was the prophet i think more in tune then any other. He said it was were they were. Also on the hill cumorah when they put in the stage for the pagent they removed boxes of arrow heads and weapons in one little excavation site...
@@mrbrian87 the Jaredites came before Israel.
The best and most reliable evidence is the DNA and all three types of DNA testing (mtDNA, Y-DNA and autosomal) all best support the Hopewell and Algonquin tribes as having far and away the best DNA connection.
@@Lamanitehistory that is just not factual, but thanks for your comment.
@watcherpalmerlds It is factual. I've researched that a great deal and done a book and a number of presentations on it. If you want you can look at the information I've presented.
@ the information I gave may be weak in your opinion, but you give no information disputing what I presented. I refuted the DNA with a reference to the church website. I also know a micro biologist , last name of Woodward who would dispute what you have to say. If you are going to say my info was weak, I will reply back to your false claims of DNA. You cannot prove or disprove the Book of Mormon by DNA.
@watcherpalmerlds DNA doesn't prove the Book of Mormon but it does give strong evidence. I encourage you to look at what I've presented. It would take hours to re-give all the information here. But here are a few citations for each of the three types of DNA testing.
On the Mtdna testing, the closest Old World DNA relative for Native American mtdna X2a (mostly found in Algonquin tribes) is in the Middle East and the Middle East is scientifically the likely origin. See Reidla, "Origin and Diffusion of mtdna Haplogroup X", Amer. Journal of Human Genetics (2003); Oppenheimer, "Solutrean Hypothesis ..." World Archaeology (2014).
On the Y-DNA testing, the MAJORITY of Algonquin tribe males are Y-DNA R1b, which is also found in significant numbers in Jewish populations. See Bortolini "Y-chromosome Evidence for Differing Ancient Demogaphic Histories of the Americas" (2003); Shen, "Reconstruction of ... Israeli Populations" Human Mutation (2004).
On autosomal DNA testing, the Algonquin tribes show significant DNA markers that are found in Mediterranean populations. Chacon-Duque, Nature Communications (2018).
@@LamanitehistoryExcept that DNA came from the Phoenicians that mined Copper in the Great Lakes area for a few thousand years, leaving DNA, if not men, each of those years.
Fact: the Hill Cumorah is in modern day New York and the final battles took place in that vicinity. (Letter Vll, Lucy Mack Smith journal, etc). Everyone in Joseph’s era knew this as a fact. I’m amazed at how modern scholars think they know better. Two Cumorahs is never mentioned, ever. Yet the scholars fabricate this fallacy. The Hill Cumorah is in New York, fact. Geography debate is over.
Yes. Marion G Romney "the 2 Cumorah theory is false"
@@BrianTerrill “Sixth: The prophet does not have to say ‘Thus saith the Lord’ to give us scripture" [nor apparently any other thing he wants to say.]
From:
"The Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet"
Initially given by Pres (of the 12) Ezra Taft Benson at BYU, Feb 26, 1980, later made the First Presidency message of the June 1981 Ensign, and repeatedly delivered verbatim in General Conference, Stake conferences, etc.
Scott, I think this is one of your best videos yet. I've been a member all of my life and I'm in my fifties. I've always had a Meso view (although we believe the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ and an ancient record, regardless where it happened). I've thought of the Book of Mormon being evidence of the Meso and South American ruins, rather than the ruins being evidence of the Book of Mormon. We had a great missionary serve in my ward in London not long ago. He joined the Church during lockdown and he said what converted him was the archaelogy--that it was so obvious to him, all the ruins of the areas of central and south America were of ancient people who would have had to come from somewhere--Jaredites, Mulekites, Lehi's family.
@@billiegoesgreen that is so awesome! Thank you for sharing this.
That's a lovely story from a convert with limited exposure to the doctrine and its an opinion. Not fact. It's like no one reads 2nd Nephi.
@ I’ve read 2nd Nephi many times and I thought this story of the convert was awesome.
you imply that the seasons never change that how the world is now is how it was 2000 years ago. I am sure the climate was much different when the garden of Eden was in Missouri. What if the poles switched 2000 years ago?
I noticed a scripture in this week's reading that has a significance.
Ether 10:20
And they built a great city by the narrow neck of land, by the place where the sea divides the land.
Interesting, it says the sea divides the land at the narrow neck. That would not be accurate for the Mesoamerican model.
In addition, I think the sea is the great lakes, not the Mississippi. Niagara was a Indigenous name that meant narrow neck. If you apply that the land of desolation would be west of Niagara falls. I think it works.
No metal swords in Mesoamerican lands and there are in the great lake area.
Lastly, with all the fires the people built there would have been global warming so winters would not have been as harsh. 😅
Of course my testimony has nothing to do with the geography of the book of Mormon but I love the evidences seen in the heartland model though I have my own thoughts on a few things that aren't within that model.
This is the first time that I have agreed with Watcher Palmer 100%. Good job on the video! Where are the Lamanites blossoming as a rose? It sure ain't in the U.S. Look to Meso- and South America. The growth is off the charts!! There shouldn't be an argument, period!
There is a first time for everything! We found something to agree on!
Bingo! This guy gets it.
So why did not Joseph Smith go down to Guatemala to give them the Book or Mormon? Because it was a remnant of the American Indian. AMERICAN Indian. It's like members don't read 2nd Nephi at all. I can't believe Moroni marched wagon loads of records up to the Hill while being chased by Lamanites? Sorry... Hard to swallow.
Joseph said the BoM City of Manti was located in Rudolph County Missouri.
The Historical Record, Vol 7, 601
Despite growing up a mezo believer, bc that's what is assumed in the CES side of things, I converted to US heartland model bc I could not reconcile 1st & 2nd Nephi. The Lamanites would be scattered by the gentiles. The gentiles would get the Gospel and spread it from this land of promise. The gentiles would fight and win against their mother country. The land would be known as a land of liberty (seriously, name the mezo land of liberty).
I trust the geology will work itself out in due time, and am not bothered if events happened in mezo areas, but the heart of the BoM happened in the heart of the Promised land.
However the verse is plural refering to the mother countries. Mexico also fought for its independance from Spain, and a greater genocide occured against the native inhabitants of Mexico than the US. Not only that but Spain claimed a portion of what is now the USA, as well as extensive areas of south Amerca. i tend to subscribe to a more hemispheric model. There have been recent.y discovered by ladar scans of the amazon basin of remains of cities. The esemate were that the area was inhabited by 5 million people. There were aparently wiped out by diseases brought by Europeans. The destruction was so great that subsequent explorers a hundred years later saw no trace of what the earlier explorer described, it had all been swallowed up by the jungle.
@avoice423 let's assume Mexico has all that land (Guatemala, California, Texas, etc) and the US only goes out to the Midwest. Joseph still named the place; Rudolph County Missouri is where the City of Manti was located, and the Missouri area would be the land of Manti.
If you build the geography off the words of Joseph, and couple the entirety of Nephi's gentile/liberty verses, that puts the heart of the BoM right where the old US borders existed in the days of Joseph and the restoration.
LIDAR has been extensive in south America. Just imagine what could be found if we did LIDAR where the Lord told Joseph to send missionaries to convert the Lamanites!
@@avoice423 also, the gentiles came from a plurality of nations; they were European. Let's not forget about the French involvement.
Yes...Guatemala is not the promised land. I guess Lehi landed in Guatemala then hiked hundreds of miles north to the promised land...mentioned in 2nd Nephi.
@@GAILandROD Lehi most likely didnt go far at all from where they landed, but after he died, Nephi and those who went with him traveled for many days to found a new city called the city of Nephi. Then the first Mosiah also traveled many days to find the city of Zarahemla. Alma traveled 12 days into the wilderness to escape Noah. So we know that 12 days is not considered many. Ammon and his band wandered in the wilderness for 40 days before they found Limhi's people. So i think we can conclude that many days is more than 12 and closer to 40. Strong and mighty men could easily cover 10 to 20 miles a day depending on terrain. So we are talking 400 plus miles. With horses you could probably double that.
I personally go with THIS (U.S.) is the "promised land" of the Jaredites, Mulekites, and Lehi's family. BUT, I really don't give a tinkers damn other than it makes sense because everything happens here in the latter-days.
If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are:
10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come.
Mormon 5:8-10
If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who the Lamanites are???
4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.
5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
The gentiles have received the blessings that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are.
As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned:
“And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?”
Mormon 5:22
That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity.
If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are:
“These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).
If the Gentiles are to have care for the Lamanites, we ought to know who they are:
10 And now behold, this I speak unto their seed, and also to the Gentiles who have care for the house of Israel, that realize and know from whence their blessings come.
Mormon 5:8-10
If we are to have care for the house of Israel, do you think we ought to know who the Lamanites are???
4 And then shall the remnant of our seed know concerning us, how that we came out from Jerusalem, and that they are descendants of the Jews.
5 And the gospel of Jesus Christ shall be declared among them; wherefore, they shall be restored unto the knowledge of their fathers, and also to the knowledge of Jesus Christ, which was had among their fathers.
The gentiles have received the blessing that were originally for the Nephites. The promises made to the Nephites are also made to the Gentiles and the Lamanites will have a second chance. Another reason we ought to know who the Lamanites are.
As to Mormon’s own people, the Lord has reserved their blessings, which they might have received in the land, for the Gentiles who shall possess the land (see Morm. 5:19). But they will have another chance, for “after they have been driven and scattered by the Gentiles, behold, then will the Lord remember the covenant” (Morm. 5:20). Then it will be our turn to be concerned:
“And then, O ye Gentiles, how can ye stand before the power of God, except ye shall repent and turn from your evil ways?”
Mormon 5:22
That hardly describes us as good guys; there is only one hope for us: “I prayed unto the Lord that he would give unto the Gentiles grace,” says Moroni, “that they might have charity”-that is the only thing that can save us, unilateral generosity; if I expect anything in return for charity except the happiness of the recipient, then it is not charity.
If the Lamanites are to know that they are descendants of the Jews, the Lamanites themselves ought to know who they are:
“These things must surely be made known. . . . A knowledge of these things must come unto a remnant of these people, and also unto the Gentiles,” by being “hid up unto the Lord that they may come forth in his own due time” (Morm. 5:8-9, 12).
The New Jerusalem will be built within the land of the Jaredites (Ether 13:2-6). The New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri, specifically Jackson County (Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-4). Therefore, wherever you place your Book of Mormon geography, Jackson County, Missouri, must be part of what was the land of the Jaredites in some way. In the Heartland Model, Jackson County, Missouri, is part of what used to be the hunting preserve of the Jaredites.
The New Jerusalem will be built on the American Continent. At the time Joseph declared this, in what is now the 10th article of faith, the American Continent included all the Americas. The New Jerusalem is now Salt Lake City. The Lord required the work no more in Jackson county ( check out Doctrine and Covenants 124:49-51.
Yes the jaradites were within the American Continent as defined by Joseph.
@@watcherpalmerlds To my knowledge, the New Jerusalem has not been built yet. Which prophet has declared Salt Lake City to be the New Jerusalem? Or simply, what is your reference for that statement?
@ The dedicatory prayer of the salt lake temple. “In past ages Thou didst inspire with Thy Holy Spirit Thy servants, the prophets, to speak of a time in the latter days when the mountain of the Lord’s house should be established in the tops of the mountains, and should be exalted above the hills. We thank Thee that we have had the glorious opportunity of contributing to the fulfillment of these visions.” This refers to the prophecy in Isaiah 2:3. The footnote for this prophecy refers to the New Jerusalem!
LeGrand Richards in a conference talk entitled “In the Mountain of the Lord’s house” refers to this as well. These are just a couple of examples. Zion and the New Jerusalem can be used interchangeably. If this is the case, Zion is where we have a temple, and Salt Lake City is the center stake of Zion! This is all my opinion.
I used to live in the Rochester area and I used to go to Palmyra and hike around. I combed every inch of the Hill Camorah looking to see if I could find anything interesting. The best thing about Palmyria is they have a pretty good pizza joint there.
In the early 1990's the Church tweaked the Cumorah pageant which precipitated the need to dig into the hill and rearrange the set. Kathy Burris a local historian states that during this time, one of the senior missionaries at the site asked her if she wanted to see something special. She was ushered into a storage room at Cumorah and saw dozens and dozens of boxes full of arrowheads and other artifacts. The construction works had unearthed them in the process of digging around. The Church asked the contractor to quietly and discreetly store everything they found. They did not want anything leaked to the public for fear of a mass "run" to the Hill which could potentially cause liability issues and safety concerns during excavation. Not to mention it could hold up the process of things and they were on a a very tight deadline. She remembers how in awe she was to see so many boxes. The missionary told her not to touch any and that he probably shouldn't have showed her but he knew she would appreciate it. It wasn't but a few days later that same older missionary approached Kathy that when he went to the storage room that day, the boxes were all gone. He said he believed the Church had come and quietly removed them in the middle of the night for safety reasons. They could only speculate that they had been moved to the Granite faults in SLC.
@ People do find stone arrowheads in that part of New York. I have one that was plowed up in my friend’s field. My uncle in Utah would plow up grinding stones, scrappers and arrow heads. Those were obsidian. The arrowhead from western New York is a different kind of stone.
I have always believed that the Book of Mormon took place in Mesoamerica, near and around Guatemala, with the River Sidon being, the Usumacinta River. There is better evidence that there are a lot of Mayan ruins that could be tied to the Nephites.
Guatemala is not the promised land. Nope...not ever.
Hey Watcher Palmer, good to see your video this morning. I go and have always, with the church position. I also go with Cardio Mirical. I know what works for me.
I’m right with you on your thoughts on geography
A story from around 1844 concerning the Prophet Joseph Smith and a local farmer. One day the family noticed the pigs were feeding in the wood and rooted up an evidently ancient mound, unearthing some bones, the father discovered that it was a human skeleton of immense proportions. Among the bones was a huge skull. the father drove the pigs out of that field and brought the skull to the house to show the family. He held it up over his own face. It was so large it frightened his wife and the children terribly. He took it and went back and in excavating further he found twelve giant bodies buried in the form of a wheel, with heads to the center forming the hub. they were between seven and eight feet tall. While he was thus engaged, the Prophet Joseph Smith stopped by on horseback. Inquiring what the father was about, he soon discovered the size of the skeltons and remarked, "Jacob those were Jaredites. Cover them up and let them rest...fence them in so nothing can disturb them further." Jacob did as he was told sacredly performing the request and protected them from further harm.
And my grandma grew grapes in Texas
Good comments and insights. I'm more of a heartland believer. Basically, it just feels right to me. I think the weather aspect is interesting but not enough to make a difference-people have lived in harsh climates and have thrived for eons. And we know that weather and climate change over decades. I look at lot at the destruction before Christ appeared.That was devastation at it's worst. I'm not seeing that in Meso thought. Anyway, thanks for the discussion.
Massive destruction in mesoamerica. A whole city sunk into lake Atitlon in Guatemala. The destruction occurred in the first century AD. Most geologists agree that the destruction that occurred at the crucifixion of Christ as recorded in the Book of Mormon is attributed to volcanic activity. Many volcanoes in Mesoamerica, virtually none in the heartland.
The geography must fit the narrative. I refer you to "Joseph Smith and the Geography of the Book of Mormon", written by Dr. John L. Lund. Please read the book with an open mind.
I drank Cardio Miracle about an hour before a doctor appointment last week and my BP was normal for the first time since I got the jab.
I have enjoyed the videos about the heartland model. Who knows but it is exciting. Lots of artifacts
Here is a story from before the BofM was published: A couple of missionaries were visiting a home where a woman by the name of Dils who was a Sutton when she was a little girl lived. After enquiring who they were and where they were going, she stated that she had never seen but one Mormon before (the missionaries) but he passed by without her getting to hear him speak. Yet she believed that this land had previously been inhabited by an intelligent people. She said her father was a stone cutter and lived on the Little Miamma River in Ohio when she was a girl. One day when he was quarrying stone he found in a bed of rock all the bones of a mans body. He fetched them home and put them under his bed. On the following morning he told his family that the man to whom the bones belonged to had come to his bed in the middle of the night. The man told him his age and that he belonged to a people that were scattered from the tower of Babel when the Lord confounded the language and they were brought to this land. Here they became a numerous people. They began to have contentions among them and so in those days the Lord raised up a prophet who prohesied that if they did not cease their fighting that he only should be left of all the people in the land, and that it did prove so that they were all slain except himself and the other leader and he finally overcame him. He tarried until another people came and found him and he lived with them 9 moons and died. They buried him there where Mr. Sutton found his bones. Mr. Sutton's testimony came about 15 or 20 years before th Book of Mormon came forth. Points of thought: Mrs. Dils had never conversed with a Mormon before this visit or knew about the BofM. The bones that her father found were in OHIO. If this story is accepted as a genuine secondary source, "Coriantumr" was found not far from the New York Cumorah, suporting a "1 Hill." Burying Coraintumr on the Little Miami river would make it part of the Land Bountiful next to the Land Desolation.
@@sarahpeacock9686 the first missionaries were called and started to serve after the Book of Mormon was published. This story starts out with a false claim. Not sure this holds much water.
@@sarahpeacock9686 that is a good story. Thank you for sharing.
You should volunteer for the debate brother Palmer! I heard when they couldn’t find anyone for the Meso side, they decided to go with one of the guys from Ward Radio. I forgot his name and I guess he’s somewhat of a Meso guy but I would love to hear your views
Jerry Grover has done extensive reasearch on the gegraphy of the BofM. His book by that name goes into great depth on the geology of the Sorenson model. It is available free on line for anyone to read, it is technical, however. He has also done forensic linguistic studies asociated with theBofM.
@@avoice423 that would be a good choice. I just looked up his name and it’s Luke Hanson. I don’t know how “Meso” he is but he decided to do it
Love you Brother but It’s heartland all day long… no 2 hill cumorahs… what Joseph Smith said about walking across the plains of the Nephites, Zelph etc etc… also that not just the plates but the entire room full of them in the hill cumorah IN NEW YORK!!! Adam ondi omen here in the heartland… this is a covenant land and what Bruce Porter talks about with the land deed… it ALL aligns with the heartland USA and BoM story.
Agree to disagree… and the thing that all the meso’s work for the church is bs too… they just puss out every time… you should go debate Rod Meldrum… that would be awesome!!!
Anyway still love you to death!! You are the best and I appreciate all you do!!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️
I side with Scott
@@mrmod123 Yes LOOK at what Joseph Smith Jr. said about Zelph. A righteous Lamanite warrior. While in the area of The Book Of Mormon, after the resurrection Lamanites are only those who deny Jesus Christ, so no righteous Lamanites where the narrative of The Book Of Mormon took place. And at the time Zelph was buried, there were no wars and so no warriors in the area covered in The Book Of Mormon. So either Joseph Smith Jr. got everything wrong about Zelph and is a false prophet, or Zelph didn't live where The Book Of Mormon occurred.
@@mrmod123 Either Joseph Smith Jr. got everything wrong about Zelph, or Zelph didn't live where The Book Of Mormon happened. For Joseph Smith Jr. called Zelph a righteous Lamanite warrior. Those called Lamanites after the resurrection were only those who denied Jesus Christ, so no righteous Lamanites. And at the time the mound was made, there were no wars, and couldn't be warriors. So Zelph could only be a true prophecy if the Heartland model is false.
@@bartonbagnes4605 There isn't necessarily a dichotomy. Lamanites and Nephites spread throughout North and South America. JS speaking about Zelph doesn't conclusively put the main BOM narrative in the U.S.
@fidtru8615 What Joseph Smith Jr. said about Zelph makes it impossible for the Heartland to be where The Book Of Mormon took place. Joseph Smith Jr. said Zelph was a righteous Lamanite warrior. Some time between 110 A.D. and 194 A.D. there began to be Lamanites, specifically because they rebelled from the Church and didn't believe in Jesus Christ, and from that time on all those who rejected Jesus Christ became Lamanites, and those who believed in some form of Jesus Christ were Nephites. So there were no righteous Lamanites, not in the area covered in The Book Of Mormon. And wars didn't start again until 321 A.D. in The Book Of Mormon, but the mound Zelph was buried in was finished by 250 A.D. So no wars or warriors at the time of Zelph, not where The Book Of Mormon happened anyways. So either Joseph Smith Jr. got everything wrong about Zelph, or Zelph didn't live in the area covered by The Book Of Mormon.
The title of this video should be: Hairsplitting 101 - Class 1
I go along with the Heartland. But who knows huh? 🤔
In the early days of the church (pre-Utah) in many members patriarchal blessings had a statement that they would help the Lamanites to receive their promised blessings. At this point in history this would have seemed to indicate the native peoples of north-America, it could also be referring to something that will occur during the millennium. The work among the north American native people does not seem to have moved forward with the same pace as those from other areas.
The following scripture regarding the work among the Lamanites, states that this work among them will be a sign that the Lord has commenced the fulfilling of his covenants to the house of Israel:
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed ( the indigenous people of the America’s) shall begin to know these things-it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
3 Nephi 12
There are at least three other events noted in scripture that are given as a sign that the Lord is about to fulfill his covenants to the house of Israel. What is interesting about these additional events, that stands out, is that not any of these events have taken place yet!
First there is the collapse of the great and abominable in the following verse it states that Lord is about to fulfill his covenants to the house of Israel when this occurs. We find this in Nephi’s vison and from one of Nephi’s “looks”:
17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.
1 Nephi 14
Verse 17 is a point of reference, a time when this is going to take place. Also note that it states that it is the preparing the way.
A second sign or point of reference in the Book of Mormon regarding the Lord fulfilling his covenants to the house of Israel comes from the words of Moroni:
Ether
CHAPTER 4
Moroni is commanded to seal up the writings of the brother of Jared-They will not be revealed until men have faith even as the brother of Jared-Christ commands men to believe His words and those of His disciples-Men are commanded to repent, believe the gospel, and be saved.
15 …yea, when ye shall call upon the Father in my name, with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, then shall ye know that the Father hath remembered the covenant which he made unto your fathers, O house of Israel.
16 And then shall my revelations which I have caused to be written by my servant John be unfolded in the eyes of all the people. Remember, when ye see these things, ye shall know that the time is at hand that they shall be made manifest in very deed.
The coming forth of the writings of John, that were hidden up, will be a signal that the covenants of the Lord regarding the house of Israel are about to be fulfilled.
There have been way more native Americans baptized in Central America than in the heartland of America. Just saying.
@@watcherpalmerlds Exactly. Are the north American native peoples more direct descendants of the Lamanites??? The quorum of the Twelve is also very aware of pace of the work in North America. I have something more I can include if You Tube will let me.
I don't know if you know Elder Echo Hawk, he was born in Cody, Wyoming. He is a member of the Pawnee tribe. He served as an area seventy and previously had served as a stake president. Prior to this he was the first Indian state attorney general for Idaho and then served under President Obama as assistant secretary for Indian Affairs for the U.S. Department of the Interior.
He was in a meeting with the Quorum of twelve and some additional leaders, this is a transcript of his account which he gave just a few weeks ago at the Gathering of Tribes conference on Saturday, March 23, in Mesa, Arizona. This is taken from an audio recording. The point made in this meeting is that the indigenous people of the America's are clearly descendants of the Book of Mormon peoples, while this makes no mention of the Hopewell civilization by extrapolation they would of course be included , The following is his account of what took place in this meeting with the first presidency that took place perhaps around 2018:
“when I'd been asked to to make another presentation about Native American Affairs in the church structure as the meeting concluded I'd done my part President Boyd K Packer who was serving as the president of the quorum of the 12 looked at his Brethren of the Quorum of the Twelve and the seven presidents and the presiding Bishopric and then he turned to Elder Porter who is a general Authority 70 that oversees and assist that committee and he said Elder Porter open your Book of Mormon and he told all of the brethren in the quorum of the 12 and the seven presidents, presiding Bishopric open your Book of Mormon to the title page...
THE BOOK OF MORMON
AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BYTHE HAND OF MORMON UPON PLATES TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI
Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites-Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile
and he said Elder Porter read it. You know President Packer is a very strong leader and when he says something people don't hesitate he's the president of the Quorum of the twelve and he said to Elder Porter read it. So Elder Porter, he opened his Book of Mormon he says wherefore it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi and also of the lamanites written to the lamanites who are a remnant of the House of Israel. President Packer said to Elder Porter stop, and he said Elder Porter read it again. So Elder Porter read it again “an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi and also of the lamanites written to the lamanites who are remnant of the House of Israel” and he told him stop at that point a second time. Then he said to Elder Porter read it again remember this is the Quorum of the 12 in the room.
With the seven presidents and the presiding bishopric and Elder Packer's teaching something here and he says to Elder Porter read it again “it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi and also of the Lamanites written to the lamanites who are remnant of the House of Israel”, stop and he said president Packer says Brethren he said our missionaries are taking the Book of Mormon to the Far Corners of the Earth in all of our missions you know tens of thousands of young men and young women are taking the Book of Mormon to the people as a part of the Gathering of Israel but we're not doing enough to take it to the descendants of the people of the Book of Mormon you got that message from the highest leadership in the church. This is the Gathering and we need to do more brothers and sisters we have a personal responsibility yes you and you and you and you have a personal responsibility to prepare for the second coming of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ a personal responsibility it's not just you we have a responsibility as a group of the remnant of House of Israel to do our part to prepare for the second coming of the Savior Jesus Christ.
The American Indian is the remnant. Joseph Smith taught them. He didn't take that record to Guatemala and tell them they were the remnant. No one reads 2nd Nephi. Sad.
I am not sure that it really matters, we know the gospel was brought back on the earth through Joseph Smith. Does it really matter where ?
I can accept a bit of both theory s. As I approach my 80ith yr I have lived in the heartland areas. I do lean. More heartland - the hopwells /
Heartland is like fitting a square peg in a round hole. I am fairly certain that the main BOM narrative occurred in Mesoamerica. But Lehi's seed traveled up into the U.S. and to the south into South America and had different societies. Surely they retained many of the same traditions/religion, etc. So, yes you are going to find evidence of Nephites and Lamanites in the U.S./Canada, but not the main narrative.
@@fidtru8615 Bingo! This guy gets it!!
The Land of Promise and the New Jerusalem:
Ether 13:2-6 states the New Jerusalem will be built upon the Jaredite lands. Doctrine and Covenants 84:1-4 states the New Jerusalem will be built in Missouri. Ether 13:20-21 says Coriantumr would live to see other people inherit the lands of the Jaredites, and he would receive a burial by them. That would mean the Mulekites, at least, would be settling in Jaredite lands. I believe the Mulekites and Lehites settled in the Jaredite hunting preserve (Ether 10:19), and the land of Desolation was the Jaredite Civilization core where most of them lived. The Mulekites had first landed in the land of Desolation (Alma 22:30), but I think they didn't settle there or close by because they didn't want to settle in the land of rotting Jaredite corpses.
Independence, Missouri, was called the center place of the land of promise (Doctrine and Covenants 57:1-3). Rod Meldrum has suggested Independence, Missouri, is roughly the center place of the contiguous United States. A more correct center of the contiguous United States would be Lebanon, Kansas 267 miles to the west. However, Independence, Missouri, does fit being the center point between "the hill Cumorah or east sea to the Rocky Mountains" as described in the Zelph Mound account. Therefore, I'd say the borders of the Promised Land would be more like the borders of the United States in 1830 when the Church was restored. It wouldn't need to be exact, but I think they roughly overlap. I'd say the main events of the Book of Mormon happened in that area, which is right where the Heartland Model is. I don't see any other model lining up with those revelations.
Well you do love to stir the pot. While Book of Mormon geography isn't essential to our salvation, it sure is interesting!
I studied the Meso books for years and found it very possible. Then about 10 years ago my wife started pushing the Heartland model on me. So I have studied that a lot and find it very persuasive.
I 100% believe that the "this land" in the Book of Mormon is the USA--a chosen, choice land, without kings, a land of liberty, land of the Restoration, the New Jerusalem, and the driving engine powering Ephraim's work to take the gospel to the world.
The biggest problem I have with the Meso America theory is that it that there have been too many civilizations for too long. There is no way the Nephites and Lamanites came around 600 bc formed 2 large civilizations and not attracted attention from the other civilizations that existed there.
@@rudycox7688 you could say the same thing about the heartland model.
@@watcherpalmerldsNot really. The eastern part of the United was not that populated around 600 BC. There was the Adena people, which mainly lived around the Ohio valley. The Hopewell people were just barely beginning at that time, wherever they came from. They wouldn't become a large civilization and over take the Adena for a couple hundred years. There was lots of unpopulated land, especially in the southern part of the USA. This is baseoff main stream current archeology, not LDS archeology, which, let's face it, is somewhat biased and questionable.
@ well you can’t have it both ways. You can’t say there was little population in the Heartland compared to Mesoamerica, but then say there were millions of people in the Heartland as reported in the Book of Mormon. This is what I always find with heartlanders, they cherry pick to make things fit. IMO
A couple of things....Ether watched the destrustions of the Jaredites from the cavity of a rock, kind of sounds like a cave. so a cave is needed near the battle and from which one could abserve the goings of without discovery. Mormon buried the plates in the hill of the final battle, apparently wagon loads. Perhaps in the same cave. These records are hidden up unto the Lord for a purpose. When will they come forth? I dont think they are in the hill in up state NY. So where are they?
Near Veracruz, Mexico
Didn't you know Moroni took wagon loads of records thousands of miles north while being chased by Laminites?
I think the wagon loads are in the hill Rama
I don't understand this issue at all. Whether they landed in Mesoamerica or further north, some of them obviously migrated up to the palmrya area, Moroni being one of them, over a period of probably hundreds of years. What does it matter? I don't get it.
The headwaters of the River Sidon are to the south of Zarahemla. It flows north to the sea (east). How can the Mississippi River be the River Sidon?
@@11of13 exactly!
The answer is: EASILY! ("Like shootin' fish in a barrel")
Once you escape from Meso-Orthodoxy for a moment, GOOGLE people who have your answer--simple and complete--such as Rod Meldrum or Wayne May or Jonathon Neville (I know, the Meso-Marauders clutch their pearls and feint at the mention of such people--but, in the immortal words of Elder Boyd K Packer: "Latter Day Saints are not exempt from exercising common sense." Go get some for free from one of those people :--D
Personally I don’t need physical tangible evidence to prove the BOM is true. I received the most powerful witness of my life from the Holy Ghost that penetrated every fiber in my body that it was absolutely true. That was enough for me.
Meldrum and May have a financial interest in pushing the Heartland theory but it simply doesn’t work geographically. Yes, the Nephites and Hagoth migrated north into the US but this was outside the BoM account.
Nope. Imo
I don't see how Hagoth migrates north and is not heard of again, while Moroni migrates north to Cumorah and misses Hagoth.
Then Chief Midegah claims that the tribes regularly migrated north-south and KNEW of each other.
Something doesn't add up.
@ Hagoth eventually took his ships to Polynesia. This was some 400 years before Moroni. Alma tells of other groups of Nephities who migrated north. We can safely assume that over time they fought and mixed with the indigenous peoples of North America.
@@justinhayward42 I'm aware of the Pacific island connections, I don't buy the idea Hagoth and crew were the Pueblo Indians
@ Moroni avoided everyone because everybody was out to get him. Plus he traveled north and northeast some 450 years after Hagoth.
I guess the promised land must really be in Meso America then, since they were led to the promised land. We’ve been deceived thinking it’s Jackson County then.
@ The “promised land” has always, and forever, been a specific location. It’s where the garden of Eden was. It’s where the New Jerusalem or the city of Zion is to be established. It’s not some dual continent wide location. The only reason that Meso America is even considered is because of ancient ruins that were discovered. It was concluded by BYU PhD’s that those must be the location of Book of Mormon lands, even though those living in Jerusalem at the time of Jeremiah never built structures like the ones discovered there. They used wood - look at Solomons temple, built with the cedars of Lebanon.
Joseph Smith did not believe they lived in Meso America. Only BYU professors do. I can just picture Moroni trekking back and forth from somewhere in Mexico to bring the plates to a place where some future prophet was going to live, just so he could find them close to home. It would have been so much easier to have him born in Mexico and the restoration to take place there. Common sense would tell us that the Lord doesn’t employ huge moving companies to transport records from one distant place to another just to confuse or deceive people. O top of that, Moroni would have had to construct the Hill Cumorah in New York in order to hide the records, and make sure that there was another hill nearby from which the records were transferred. How deceptive.
It might be interesting to see what is taking place at the Hill Cumorah in New York in terms of research right now by thhe Church. . Why was the pageant really cancelled?
The Mulekites did not follow the same path to the promised land that Lehi and his family travelled, and yet were in the same vicinity. I wonder how they managed to travel all the way across the North American landscape just so they could be close enough for Mosiah and his people to discover them.
I believe what Joseph Smith said about the Nephites and Lamanites and the land that they possessed.
Those who are researching the Heartland are doing an amazing job of establishing geography, and in a way that meets all the criteria for sound research. Meso American theory has them jumping all over the place. The promised land is exactly where Joseph Smith said it is. It has forever been there. Otherwise, why wasn’t the garden of Eden in Meso America and that is where everything occurred. It would have been far easier to keep things consistent than to pretend it was in one place when really it was another.
If you go a liitle further south of Keokuk you will find they have very little snow and a much warmer climate just a few miles apart from adam ondi ahman and other northern missouri locations.
@@noliakrouton1115 that’s fine, but for many years the Nephites were north of the narrow neck of land. That would put the Nephites in Canada according to the Heartland theory. Lots of cold and lots of snow.
Go debate Meldrum .. they need someone
If I’m invited, I would do it.
@I am sure if you contact them .. they would take you up on it .. they still don’t have anyone
With research one will find out where the whole meso-america story line came from. Hint: a well meaning member published it in the Time And Seasons while the editor (Joseph Smith Jr.) was in jail.
So not true, but thank you.
There are grape growers in Colorado
And Washington state.
After learning so much about Heber C Kimball and his womanizing on his mission to England and how he treaded women in the Church, I personally would newer take anything he says as gospel truth.
And it meaneth that the time cometh that after all the house of Israel have been scattered and confounded, that the Lord God will raise up a mighty nation among the Gentiles, yea, even upon the face of this land; and by them shall our seed be scattered.
1 Nephi 22:7
I wonder if Nephi knew where he was and where that great nation would be.
Yo da best, Bro Palmer, but since climate is your biggest objection to the Heartland model ... you realize, don't you, why Greenland is called Greenland?
@@jonterry9843 Greenland was not green 2500 years ago. No way. The Heartland had snow and cold 2500 years ago.
@@watcherpalmerlds And you know this how? We are not as smart as we sometimes think. I believe we are missing the mark here. The simplest explanation is usually the truest. The Hill Cumorah is in modern day New York. Scholars (Meso) vs Prophets (Heartland).
@@watcherpalmerlds Well, the climate alarmists (like Michael Mann with his hokey hockey stick graph) really want you to believe such things. They fight tooth and nail against the notion that climate has fluctuated in regular cycles throughout the last 2000-6000 years--though other scientists argue for such recent climate diversity. The Vikings actually farmed Greenland for 400 years and raised Barley--a warm weather crop (the kind of facts Al Gore might ignore as "inconvenient truths").
When you get past Michael Mann, Algore and other climate storm-troopers (a serendipitous pun, eh?), you find enormous variation among scientists about such things (even while risking funding and fellowship among the enforced orthodoxy).
Some scientists posit a major warming period reached its peak around the time that the Jaredites--and eventually the Mulekites and Nephites--would have arrived in America:
"Scientists know that the climate around Greenland became warmer towards the end of the last glacial period some 10,000 years ago.... The new findings indicate that the ice reached its minimum after the sea in West Greenland started to become warmest around 5,000 years ago..... The period from 3,000 to 5,000 years ago is consistent with analyses of marine sediment cores, which show that during this same period, more marine invertebrates lived in the sea in West Greenland" (ScienceNordic Journal)
If Greenland was drastically warming at those times, imagine how toasty it got 2000 miles further south, in America.
Excessive focus on the where distracts from the beautiful eternal truths of the sacred record of the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
Agreed!
@@watcherpalmerlds so why stir the pot making a location video?!?!
@@watcherpalmerldsnone the less, I too enjoy studying and pondering the different ideas. I enjoyed the way you presented the different ideas, and your conclusions directly match mine.
@@jarenthompson915because it’s enjoyable and pulls us into the sacred record, as long as we focus on the true reason that we have been blessed with this marvelous work.
sorry. it's not Meso. all the stone buildings that are supposed to be Nephite temples/cities didn't exist in during BOM times.
@@MagnusTheBiased-tw6zy absolutely not true, but thank you for your comment.
Hey, Scott...I thought I would post what I sent to you a while back about ChatGPT's "viewpoint" on this issue:
Choosing the **most likely theory** for the geographic setting of the **Book of Mormon** depends on how one weighs the available evidence and interprets the text itself. Given the current state of the evidence-archaeological, geographic, and textual-I'll provide a nuanced perspective that takes into account both the strengths and weaknesses of the **Heartland** and **Mesoamerican** theories.
### Key Considerations:
1. **Archaeological Evidence:**
- The **Mesoamerican Theory** has the clear advantage when it comes to archaeological support. Mesoamerica is home to some of the world's most well-documented pre-Columbian civilizations, such as the **Olmec**, **Maya**, and **Teotihuacan**, all of which exhibit advanced technologies, urban centers, and a cultural richness that aligns with the Book of Mormon’s descriptions of the Nephites and Lamanites. The **Heartland Theory**, by contrast, struggles to find direct archaeological evidence that could conclusively match the scale of civilization described in the Book of Mormon.
2. **Geographic Fit:**
- The **Mesoamerican Theory** also has a stronger geographic alignment with the Book of Mormon. Descriptions of a "narrow neck of land" and large bodies of water (Pacific and Gulf of Mexico) are much more easily mapped to the geography of Mesoamerica, particularly the **Isthmus of Tehuantepec**. The Heartland Theory's reliance on the geography of the northeastern United States (including the Great Lakes, Mississippi River, etc.) does not align as neatly with the specific Book of Mormon descriptions (e.g., a narrow neck of land separating two large bodies of water).
3. **Cultural Parallels:**
- The **Mesoamerican Theory** benefits from its proximity to well-documented ancient cultures with complex religious, political, and military structures. The **Heartland Theory** draws on general parallels with indigenous cultures like the **Hopewell** or **Mississippian** but lacks the same level of sophistication seen in Mesoamerica. Additionally, the evidence for advanced metallurgy and writing systems in Mesoamerica (which correspond to the Book of Mormon's mention of metalworking and written language) is more robust than anything found in pre-Columbian North America.
4. **Textual and Doctrinal Considerations:**
- Both theories rely heavily on the interpretation of the text, and each proponent could argue that the text is flexible enough to support their theory. The **Heartland Theory** often stresses the proximity to **Cumorah** (in New York), tying the narrative closely to the early history of the LDS Church. However, this is more a matter of tradition than textual evidence-though the **Hill Cumorah** in New York is important to LDS history, the text itself does not explicitly identify it as the final battleground for all of Nephite civilization. The **Mesoamerican Theory** has a broader geographical canvas that fits many more aspects of the Book of Mormon narrative (large cities, extensive wars, long migrations, and trade routes).
5. **Genetic and Linguistic Evidence:**
- There has been ongoing debate over genetic and linguistic evidence connecting Native American populations to the ancient peoples of the Book of Mormon. While some have argued for genetic markers or linguistic features, mainstream geneticists and anthropologists have not found conclusive evidence to connect Native American populations with Book of Mormon peoples. However, **Mesoamerican** cultures do show evidence of complex interactions (e.g., the migration patterns and trade networks that could align with some of the Book of Mormon's narrative of interaction between the Nephites, Lamanites, and Jaredites).
### Conclusion: **Mesoamerican Theory is the Most Likely, Based on Evidence**
While both theories are highly speculative and lack definitive, irrefutable evidence, the **Mesoamerican Theory** appears to be the more plausible of the two based on the current evidence in the following ways:
1. **Archaeological Evidence:** Mesoamerican civilizations exhibit clear cultural and technological features that align well with the Book of Mormon's descriptions of advanced civilizations. There is no parallel in the archaeological record of the Heartland to such advanced societies.
2. **Geographic Alignment:** The geography of Mesoamerica better matches the geographical descriptions in the Book of Mormon, particularly the concept of a "narrow neck of land" and the positioning of large bodies of water. The Heartland's geography, while offering some general features like rivers and hills, does not fit as precisely.
3. **Cultural Parallels:** The Book of Mormon's descriptions of cities, warfare, religious practices, and the decline of a great civilization are much more easily matched with the well-documented history of Mesoamerican cultures than with North American pre-Columbian societies.
4. **Textual Interpretation:** The Mesoamerican Theory allows for a broader, more flexible interpretation of the text that can account for the scope of Book of Mormon events, such as large-scale migrations and the destruction of entire civilizations. The Heartland Theory, by contrast, may be more difficult to reconcile with some of the Book of Mormon's more expansive narrative elements.
**However, it’s important to note:**
- No theory can currently be proven definitively. Much of the debate comes down to interpretation and the limits of current archaeological and historical evidence.
- The Heartland Theory is still a viable model, particularly for those who are drawn to the significance of **Cumorah** and the early history of the LDS Church.
- Both theories are open to refinement as new archaeological discoveries are made, so neither is "settled" in the academic sense.
In short, the **Mesoamerican Theory** is the most likely, but it remains a hypothesis-one that fits better with the available evidence, yet still requires much more exploration and verification.
@@its-a-bountiful-life Dang! Thank you for this. It’s hard to argue with AI. It would listen anyway.
Yeah, hard to beat the excitement of having some insentient algorithm think --and decide--for you . . .
(And this is scary--the poster is NOT being ironic; he feels genuinely enlightened and delighted to have AI resolve the issue for him ... Have you asked AI whom you should marry? Or vote for? Or how to best raise your children?)
@@jonterry9843It must be intimidating to have logic and truths revealed to you by AI
@ You’re overthinking it. It’s just another or several other data points to help you sort through all the emotional attachment one might have with what ever you’re investigating. On the BOM geography issue, I don’t really care either way. I just like truth seeking about anything. ChatGPT is not perfect, and if you happen to know a thing or two about the subject at hand, and push back, it will gladly cede you some ground, unlike some people, like yourself maybe, whose emotional attachment to their point of view will not allow them to bend at all.
@watcherpalmerlds (and bountiful life dude):
Whoa ... Don't get between AI Daddy and it's disciples ... especially when AI gives the answer they want to hear perhaps ... (So now you see AI as a "revealer of truths"? Is it "Elder AI" from now on? I thought the revelatory process was a bit more involved than asking Bill Gates' robot buddy. Alma 32 could have freed-up a lot of space by skipping all those study and testing verses and just say: "Elder ChatGbt knows. Quit making this whole thought process harder than it needs to be." And we can streamline DC 6 also: "You must study it out ... or just ask AI."
(Just having some fun here, hermanos. I hope all goes well. But I am a bit surprised how testy you've been in your responses with this video ... something else going on here, Brother Palmer? I wish you well.)
I just don’t understand the drive people have to prove the location. If a testimony is dependent on either of these theories being true it is a very weak testimony. As a matter of curiosity, fine, because most of this is based on supposition, but facts are few. We will all know for a fact where it was in less than a hundred years, so why argue?
If these words of Jesus Christ aren’t clear enough about the geography…
3 Nephi 21:4
For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in THIS LAND, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
So is “this land” referring to the time of the Book of Mormon, the time of Joseph Smith, or today? Remember that boarders are fairly recent. It does make a difference.
I believe Christ was referring to all 3 eras. He was speaking directly to the Nephites and Lamanites in their land, the same land that the Gentiles would inherit after their destruction. The same land that the Lehites and Mulekites inherited after the Jaredites fell. The same land where Joseph Smith would live upon and bring their record to light and to the seed of their remnant. This same land is free today thanks to the constitution set up by the power of the Father and our founding fathers. Ether 2 speaks of an everlasting decree upon this same land. Have the borders changed? Of course. Is the USA the same exact border? No. But encompassed in and near its general borders is the land of promise. A choice land. I don’t focus on the borders as I do the land. I believe the land where Joseph Smith traversed was essentially the “this land” that Christ spoke and prophesied of.
2 Nephi 21
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea.
10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek; and his rest shall be glorious.
11 And it shall come to pass in that day that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy of Ephraim also shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.
Isaiah 35
8 And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.
9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there: 10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.
D&C 45
66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;
67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.
68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.
71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.
Dr. Danial Peterson, Of F.A.I.R., formally F.A.R.M.S. . Has lectured on this. Dr. Peterson ain't exactly the dim bulb on the tree. Who would I to be to argue with him.
And so you . . . just submit to his almighty PhD . . . and let him do your thinking for you? Meh.
Climate and Miss. River are problems no doubt for heartland,, but ive seen how much a river can move in 100 yrs, let alone thousands. (100's of feet). And having a large flooded plain, i.e. lake or sea is as plausible as 2 hill cumorahs. There is a lot of evidence for little ice ages and warming trends over 1000 yr timeframes.
Well which land looks like the promised land. I think it is not south or Central America.
Where did Columbus land? The promised land! He did not land in the USA.
The Bahamas, Cuba, DR, Puerto Rico, Jamaica… really? Let’s be serious. Who does the Lord himself refer to as the Lamanites? The American Indians of the United States, namely the Northeast, that were forced west of Missouri.
@ Columbus is prophesied in the Book of Mormon as being led to the promised land. He never landed in the USA. So the promised land included all of the Americas.
Fair enough. I do realize that we have been taught that the man referred to in 1 Nephi 13 is Columbus. Could it be another? Possibly. The Reformationists had a much larger influence on the Restoration than the Catholics. And isn’t Puerto Rico part of the USA? Haha!
I love you and your podcasts, but in this particular case I am going to have to go with the prophet Joseph , he said it was to heart land area. Whichever, the Book of Mormon is true and translated through the Urim and thumim not a peep stone in a hat. Just my opinion but well backed by the PROPHET Joseph vs the PRESIDENT Nelson video.
@WatcherpalmerLDS The Mississippi River NORTH of the confluence with the Ohio river, is referred to as the River Sidon, in the Heartland model. South of the confluence, the lower Mississippi is considered an embayment - i.e., the thought being that it was much wider when Lehi & Mulek's ships landed... possibly about 50 miles wide, similar to the Gulf of Aqaba separating the Sinai peninsula from Saudi Arabia... or possibly even compared to the Gulf of California, separating Baja from Mexico proper. This would have changed at the time of the destruction in 3 Nephi 8 (akin to the claim by Elder LeGrand Richards in "A Marvelous Work and a wonder", regarding the Washoe indian's claim that what we know call ancient Lake Bonneville between the Sierra Nevada mountains of California and the Wasatch Front in Utah, disappeared many moons ago when the earth shook and the sun darkened (3 Nephi 8)).
My belief leans towards heartland although I really don’t care. My reasoning is Cumorah is in New York. Also there is not one thing about Mexico having anything to do with being a promised land, more like hundreds of years of desolation and poverty. The United Started is generally the promised land and blessed as long as we follow God. The proof is in the blessings, USA blessed others not. also Joseph Smith said so. Period end of discussion😂
Hey Palmer, I just started reading your or rather listening to your podcast and you say that the heartland people are biased but you yourself in your opening critique of distance or bias and are using false information because you say that the heartland model is thousands of miles in reality if you take the place of first landing, say near Tallahassee Florida And you as the crow flies up to Detroit Michigan it’s only 800 miles
And we all know that they move north up towards Tennessee, according to the heartland, as there is a temple in the bottom of a lake that the Tennessee Valley Authority flooded, which is a Hebrew temple, which could’ve been Nephi‘s first temple so the distance, then is consolidate it from Tennessee to Detroit area. All of this area is under 1000 miles bro so you have to get your number straight if you want credibility in your analysis.
Its good to remember where we believe Adam and Eve and these pre-flood people lived. Central American pyramids may have originally been built pre-Noah and then added onto. There are theories that the city of Enoch may be what is now Gulf of Mexico. Joseph Smith said the Ark was built where the Carolinas are now. I did hear Wayne May speak in Morgsn County in 1992, still have a few of his "Ancient America" magazines from 1991-92. Consider the Heartland as very plausible and most correct. Pilgrims/Puritans landed in Promised land farther north than they had planned. Moroni dedicates land where Manti and St. George temples stand. There may have been record depository in or near Cumorah, so Moroni, sfter 30 yrs, traveled a long way back and buried plates there. DNA evidence that closely matches old Mediterranean/Israel peoples seems to be native tribles in eastern U.S./Canada.
I would have to disagree with you on zelf bone. If you say it would be not that old. You don't believe in Kenawick man ? His bones were found in the Columbia river bank , in water ! 9000 yrs old so you must say those are fake too.
I am maxing out on what You-Tube will let me include. This is a continuation of my previous post:
A third sign that points to this fulfilling of the covenants to the house of Israel actually takes place in the temple in Heaven:
Revelations
CHAPTER 8
John sees fire and desolation poured out during the seventh seal and preceding the Second Coming.
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel’s hand.
5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Revelations 8:1-6
So before the seven angels sound their trumps, an angel approaches the golden altar with a censer and much smoke that represents the prayers of the saints.
Anciently, each year on the Day of Atonement after ten symbolic days of tribulation the High Priest enters the holy of holies and burns incense before the golden altar. One of the things represented by the golden altar are the covenants the Lord made with the house of Israel. John is being shown that this is the time for the Lord to fulfill his covenants with Israel.
How will we know that this event in the temple in heaven has taken place?
Note that it tells us that when this takes place “there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake”. It doesn't say earthquakes, but states earthquake in the singular.
Is this the earthquake that the temple in Salt Lake is being retrofitted for???
Verse 6 then tells us that the seven trumpets are now prepared to sound.
Clearly these three signs or points of reference have not yet occurred, so logically how can the sign regarding the Lamanites have come to pass yet? I have repeated this verse below:
7 And when these things come to pass that thy seed ( the indigenous people of the America’s) shall begin to know these things-it shall be a sign unto them, that they may know that the work of the Father hath already commenced unto the fulfilling of the covenant which he hath made unto the people who are of the house of Israel.
3 Nephi 12
The work of gathering scattered Israel has been going on for some time now and yet these events that signify the fulfilling of the Lord's covenants to the house of Israel have not happened.
So what is being referred to by the fulfillment of these covenants?
Many of the Book of Mormon prophets saw our day but then as they went to communicate this to us they were warned not to write these things. This includes:
1. Nephi, “I, Nephi, am forbidden”;
2. Moroni saw “great and marvelous things” but he tells us “I was about to write more, but I am forbidden”;
3. Mormon stated “Behold, I was about to write them, all which were engraven upon the plates of Nephi, but the Lord forbade it”.
The last latter day event that they include is the fall of Babylon.
Curious on opinions but why do you suppose God has chosen to withhold the geographical proof of the BOM? Most of the Bible has been proven with geography, even Noah’s arc is possibly known. I don’t buy the idea that it’s to promote faith by keeping the full knowledge from us, as that wasn’t needed for the Bible. I think what is cool is that despite internal disagreements on the exact location, the BOM has 2 possible locations that fit, despite critics claiming that there are zero.
The Book of Mormon is a spiritual journey for now. I firmly believe that in the near future we will be allowed to know where it all took place. I do look forward to that day.
Well I believe a majority happened in what is now US but some of it is probably in south America. The people moved. Rod has a lot to say about DNA as well. There is new evidence there too. But in the long run I firmly believe in the wisdom of the Lord in not verifying where it all took place.
Do you accept the secular science of an old earth with humans living on it for hundreds of thousands of years? D&C says the age of man is 7000 years including the 1000 years of the millennium. The time scales assumed by secular science could easily be exaggerated/overstated in which case the warmer climate of the past could be a lot more recent than hundreds of thousands of years. Watch out for letting secular ideas inform your views.
Are you saying there is proof that the Great Lakes region had no snow and cold weather 2500 years ago? I would love to see it.
@@watcherpalmerlds Well, there is plenty of evidence of a far warmer climate in the midwest in the past with essentially no annual snowy seasons for centuries. The question is how long ago in the past. Is it 100s or 10s of thousands of years ago or only a few thousand? I think today's science consensus relies on inflating historical timelines for much of its atheistic narrative and the events of the past are far closer in time to the present than they believe. There is evidence of human activity throughout the record from this warmer period through to the colder period. I believe Adam and Eve were the first two people to live on this earth and they did so about 6000 years ago, so all human activity occurred from then until now. That places the warmer period somewhere within the right timeframe for the Jaredites through to the Lamanites.
Come on you’re really reaching for straws here Palmer no mention of Snow in the Book of Mormon… Big deal there’s no mention of Snow to any logical degree in the entire New Testament and you just got down talking about a ski resort outside of Jerusalem… Mood point no credibility
Mesoamerican believer
Meso all the way. The geography doesn’t fit in the US.
All right, I’ve had enough… You’re being intellectually dishonest to protect your own position. You’re not even being forthright… You should come right out and say this video is about substantiating the meso American model… You come across as if you’re being fair and you’re not… Goodbye.
@@preble1980 You wrote yourself into a frenzy. Sorry to see you go so soon.
Thank u 4 the subject matter!
I know that I instinctively think of the narrow neck of land as the Panama 🇵🇦 Canal, basically!
Lot of reasonable points u shared. It sounds possible to me as to your point of view.