Na-ion battery test (Seekwatt 3V 1300mAh 18650)
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- Опубліковано 8 тра 2024
- Testing some sodium ion 3V 1300mAh 18650 cells from AliExpress made by Seekwatt. Measuring the mAh capacity, Wh energy and the charge and discharge curves. Na-ion batteries use much more abundant sodium instead of rare lithium. Are they the future of large scale energy storage?
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Dude you win the youtube award for most badass power supplies with nixie tubes
Thanks for checking these out. I'm pretty excited that we're starting to see more battery chemistries coming to market!
Nope, most all battery chemistries are already known in the industry since the 70's / 80's.
@@flexairz I don’t remember being able to actually buy lithium ion or sodium ion batteries for my toys in the 80’s…. Heck, I don’t even think I could buy sodium ion batteries just a few years ago. Not sure what you mean.
@@flexairzthat is complete BS when we're talking about modern lithium-ion (nickel, cobalt, mangan, titanium) rechargeables that were commercialized as late as 1991 in their first chemistries. lifepo4 were first developed in 1996.
replacing lithium with sodium has been explored almost since then, but there was always problem with stability, solved only in recent years which made sodium batteries finally viable (prussian white as interesting compound pushing the envelope there). so no, this is not 70s/80s tech we're talking here.
@@flexairz being _known_ by the industry and actually being _sold_ by the industry are completely different things. Coming up with a chemical formula in a lab is a lot less difficult than actually designing a mass-producible product using that chemistry.
yea lol the modern milwaukee m18 battery weren't on shelves in the 80s this is a newer refined thing
Finally real review
and data about them.
Oh man, I worked on sodium ion batteries (although a molten salt design) in 2013 and 2014.
So:
1. They will never be denser, sodium is a larger atom than lithium, you just need more volume per mole of sodium ions.
2. Cycle life will probably be smaller, it does depend on how well they figured out the anode and cathode materials. Since sodium is larger than lithium the intercalation process is a bit more "violent".
3. Environmental impact of sodium is low but it depends on the anode and cathode material, I would suspect a layered rare earth oxide cathode at minimum.
4. The electrolyte is probably way safer, lithium is such a pain for electrolyte stability.
Super cool there are some on the market now.
A stupid question: why are sodium ion batteries safer than li-ion if sodium is more active in a periodic table (there are videos where lithium, sodium, potassium are thrown in a water)
1. The actual amount of Na or Li is quite small, and makes a negligible impact on volume, especially as its dissolved as a salt in the electrolyte. The volume of an electrolyte with Na ions and one with Li ions is pretty much the same, even if the one with Na ions has a higher molarity.
2. Cycle life is better in Na-ion than Li-ion.
@@Gameplayer55055when an isolated metal is more reactive, it actually forms stronger bonds. It is more reactive *because* it is seizing a partner with great force, but once it has that partner that same force works to hold on to that partner firmly.
@@PixlRainbow Understandable
@@ozzymandius666 The actual volume of the ions is tiny but the volume of the anode and cathode has to be larger. You are never getting 100% fill of the available intercalation sites. You need an empty space for the sodium ion to go into. It happens that for lithium the graphene layers in graphite match up pretty well but this is not the case for sodium ions so you need to either stretch the spacing in a graphite based system, use a graphene based composite, or use a different anode system. This by the simple physics must be larger and therefore less dense. As for cathode we all know the common lithium ion materials, we were looking at some similar olivine like structures but of course with larger sites for the sodium ions. And for a few of the molten salt cells we just used a chunk of sodium metal but that was a whole other ball game.
Cycle life may eventually be better, depending on the electrolyte you can eliminate a lot of the SEI instability. Lithium and lithium salts are super aggressive compared to sodium.
You still have the issue witu stress and strain in the anode and cathode. I can tell you this was the biggest hurdle for us particularly on the anode side. This is also why lithium-silicon batteries didn't get too far.
Finally a battery with even more saaaaaaaalt!
i wonder what would happen if you opened the battery and put salt in it
The whole room is vibrating now, the glass is jumping, water is splashing everywhere...
Those are so interesting, but the price and low capacity is at least at the moment an issue to me. On the other hand, lithium batteries were much lower capacity too way back.
Sodium and iron are much more available materials, i bet once production ramps up, prices will go much down.
Soduium ion Battery. Niceee.
0.07 - Yes definitely confirmed. New chemical compound patented.
*Nájs.
more Sodium chloride, even more Sodium chloride
*battereeee
The aluminium of sodium
Nice to see these batteries spreading! What I haven't seen so far, is to charge/discharge them in freezer. Or on 45˚C hotplate. Because that's one of advantages over li-ion.
Love the Nixie tube meters!
And the cat!
Great video about new technology, thanks for the thorough testing and reporting!
Great video as always! Sodium ion batteries are a truly interesting battery technology that will surely improve in the future.
The specs are about the same as nimh discharge wise . might be interested for lead acid replacement in low power application since the voltage range fits perfectly into lead acid voltages
I like ur voltage meter
Don't worry about the capacity. Ultrafire will start manufacturing 20000mAh cells soon.
i bet they're working on the 30Ah model already😂😂
I am assuming that given how flexible modern DC-DC converters have become, the large voltage variation these batteries have in their discharge curve won't really be much of a problem. However their low energy density might make them more suitable for other purposes rather than portable electronic devices, even though their developement is still in a relatively early state and that might change in the future.
It's quite easy to design products that can handle the input voltage range. The problem is just that products for lithium ion haven't been designed to work down to 1.5 V per cell, as it's not needed. Even worse is that dicharging lithium ion cells down to 1.5 V, will damage them, so most products is set to cut off at about 2.8-3.3 V, even if they can work at lower voltages. Most curcuits, that's "flexible" with the voltage, can easily handle for example 3-8 V (if 2 cells are used in series) and more sensitive circuits, will need a DC/DC converter or regulator anyway, as even lithium ion usually have too much variation and/or be in the wrong voltage range - like LED lighting, many digital circuits that may accept only for example 4.5-5.5 V or for example things that contains a voltage controlled ocillator (VCO) or use control voltages for other functions
These batteries have been made to hold up to 160 Wh/kg (which is similar to lithium iron phosphate), so these at 118 Wh/kg seems in the lower end - but the chemistry is still quite new, so all battery manufacturers have probably not optimized them to get the full energy density that's currently achievable.
A device that was designed with a battery cut-off at 2.9V will only have buck converters powering its 2.0-2.8V loads if anything at all. If you want those to operate all the way down to 1.5V, you need to replace buck converters with buck-boost/SEPIC ones.
Na-ion is primarily aimed at stationary battery storage since it has fundamentally no chance of matching lithium for transportation and portable electronics. Weight and volumetric energy density don't matter quite as much as cost effectiveness, safety and useful life.
@@Speeder84XL A lot of compromises go into energy density: if you make a battery for high-intensity discharge for things like UPS that require 10-20C discharge rate, your current collecting plates/foil needs to be much thicker than a cell that sacrifices internal resistance for the absolute highest energy density to power small loads over a long time for the lowest cost possible like a smoke detector.
Thick foil is likely part of the reason these cells performed practically the same from 0.1C to 2C, negligible change in internal I2R losses.
@@teardowndan5364 Product's doen't really have to work all the way down to 1.5 V either (he just choosed that voltage as it was the lowest specified to be sure to not damage the battery) - as we saw on the graph, it will still have like 90-95% of it's capacity left, if discharged to 2 V. But, that's still lower than what's suitable for lithium ion and even lithium iron phosphate. Good point about energy density - it will of course be a trade off between the internal resistance and energy density (I forgot about that).
For small portable electronics we will probably continue to use lithium for quite a while and it probably doesn't matter that much when it comes to the environmenal impact and source material scarcity anyway. The amount of energy that needs to be stored for those devices is so small anyway. The real issue with lithium ion comes when used for large stationary energy storages (such as level out the supply and demand for the power grid).
Even for vehicles lithium ion has it's problems - both when it comes to resource scarcity for manufacturing and the nasty battery fires that can happen with those. Most electric cars today use the really worst batteries when it comes to those factors - the lithium cobalt manganese ones (which have the highest energy density).
Some electric cars do get off using lower energy lithium iron phosphate batteries instead and those could maybe use sodium ion as well.
After all - the biggest issue for electric cars today isn't energy density, but the price (especially given the fact they are still much more expensive than ICE cars and still have their limitations that people don't like - mainly when it comes to drive long distances). A big part of the price is the expensive batteries. When sodium ion comes into mass production, they will probably be much cheaper. I think most people would prefer a car that's like 600 kg heavier and have slightly higher power consumption (we are probably talking about less than 10% at the higher speeds >120 km/h, where it really matters. Most of the energy there is used to overcome air resistance, rather than rolling resistance and get up to speed. Air resistance isn't affected by weight. At low speeds the energy consumtion is so low anyway that even if there is a 30% increase there, it doesn't really matter)
- compared to one that have otherwise similar range and performance, but cost twice as much (which is most likely also going to get worse in the future, as the supplies of lithium, cobalt and other stuff starts to dwindle).
@@Speeder84XL There are many problems with using Na-ion as the drive battery in a BEV.
EVs already wear out tires 2-3X as fast from increased weight combined with high torque, adding ~30% to battery pack weight to achieve the same range is going to make that even worse.
The steep voltage curve also means you have to design the inverter, motor and everything else connected to HVDC to operate on 400-900V. Having to design a power supply to handle a >2:1 voltage and current range makes everything more expensive. With LFP, that is closer to 1.25:1, no need to overbuild for increased current at low SoC anywhere near as much. Having to handle 50% more peak current also means you are going to need 50% more copper everywhere from the battery pack cells to the motor windings.
Fast-charging a battery with a 2:1 spread from 0 to 100% is also going to be annoying with fast-charging speed becoming heavily dependent on SoC voltage: you hook up to a 350kW 900V/400A charger, only get 160kW at low SoC due to pack voltage only being 400V and can only hypothetically reach 350kW when the pack is practically full. I bet most people would prefer if it was the other way around. Using the inverter-motor as a buck regulator to increase power delivery will be essential. Another additional expense.
Having to deal with a higher voltage-current spread will also increase switching and coupling losses all around, probably going to lose 1-2% on inverter-motor efficiency there.
I'm sure there are many other knock-on effects of using batteries with steep SoC voltage curves in an EV.
Great overview of these new batteries. I love the idea of using a scope as a data logger. I always wondered what you would use the long time multi second graduations on the scope. Great idea.
THX dear DGW for another great vid. God bless you! ☺🙏
Thanks for sharing. Probably a matter of time before they start selling sodium ion batteries labeled as Li-ion.
Surprised to see these out already! Which is promising to see as an actual product and not a headline.
This is a really great video, mate. I’ve been wondering about Sodium ion batteries due to the abundance of sodium and relatively low impact on the environment. Also the 3v nominal voltage is 2xAA batteries, so it might actually be very useful. Next step is to get my hands on some of these babies.
I love your retro equipment, from better times in electronics. Today it's all microcontrollers and mosfets.
Would've been nice to see an autopsy. Great video neither way. Exited to see what the future holds for different battery technology.
no doubt the future the one and only way for massmarket battery device.
Please bring more na ion newbies and altered design and check them out (for bigger DIY projects)
Sodium ion battery 🔋⚡
The dream comes true
keep on dreaming
Diode gone WELD 🤙
Great test !
Well done, THANKS.
Would love to see an explosion test with a LiFePO4 and a similar capacity sodium ion battery! Which one will make the biggest boom and flames if any? 😅. They may work great in mechanical vaping mods if lower wattage is used which is what I use my LiFePO4s for!
Very interesting!
As I suspected, the voltage discharge curve will be an issue if using them as direct replacement for lithium ion in most products made for lithium ion
- but these will still be great for DIY-projects, where the circuits can be made to handle the lower voltage and larger voltage range (or includes a DC/DC converter or voltage regulator, that can handle a large input voltage range and give a fixed output voltage. This is often needed anyway, as even lithium ion have too much variation for many circuits that require a fixed stable voltage). In the future, many products wil probably be made to handle the larger voltage range as well.
thank... complete info..
Use 2 in series, with a buck/boost converter, might give a useful replacement for Li ion in some applications.... Would be very useful to understand more about performance over temperature, as well?
Nice NIXIE TUBES!
Thank you for video. How do you display the "still" image on the oscilloscope, of the charge and discharge curves ?
Moc pekné videjko o tejto technológií to bolo, najviac sa mi samozrejme páčilo "nabíjacie pracovište" s historickým zdrojom a historickými multimetrami s digitrónmi, aj ja mám dva takéto multimetre, jeden funkčný a druhý bohužiaľ nefunkčný, ale neskúšal som ho opraviť, keď mám jeden funkčný. A čo sa týka tých akumulátorov, tak vyzerajú že sú od poctivého výrobcu a nie sú ošidené na kapacite.
Love ya work!
Nice work, thank you! :)
Thank you for your support ;)
Danke!
thanks for your support ;)
Definitely interested in following these batteries to see where they go. We've got quite a lot of sodium in the form of saltwater...
Nice. Thanks!
Can you measure the life cycle of tha sodium ion battery and make a video please
OK, if you insist - please check back in a few years.
nice tubes in that power supply
Danke!
Thanks!
Nice graphs and charts.
I only missed a pricing...
A comparison price per volume or energy?
If this technology gets cheap enough, it could really become a maybe more green replacement
Only for static power storage will be good, of course, if will be chepeer per watt
Nice. better batteries to choose from. have you thought of dismantling the Na-Ion battery to see it's build and chemistry and how it looks like inside?
What is the self discharge current of these batteries?
for more capacity put the sodium battery in perrile with several others same with flip and smartphone batteries
Searched for "funny accent" and found this. Thanks👍
You should include a low temperature test because research claim that Na-ion has way better performance at low temperature than lithium.
Even more sodium!!
So, much much lower energy density, and over a much wider voltage range, with insignificant "flat" voltage area, which is mostly a disadvantage, in most use cases. The only significant advantage with that voltage curve is that it possible to rely more on that than decent electrics, but that's generally not good practice anyway, and as a rule you'd need advanced electrics to make use of a significant part of the capacity anyway when voltage varies between 1.5 and 4 volts, in voltage curve that's not too far from a straight line between those values.
When in worked on these about 10 years ago our target was as cheap as possible targeting grid level storage and replacing lead acid car batteries.
They can add built-in step-down converters, like in some "AA" Li-Ion, to get a flat 1.5V over the discharge cycle.
@@Ammoniummetavanadate Interesting. Wouldn't that require lithium to be absurdly expensive? I mean, from what I've read theoretically about 80 grams of lithium is required per kWh capacity, and using sodium means significantly bigger batteries for a given capacity, which in turn increases the the amount of other materials required, which adds cost, and the bigger size adds other costs.
@@fishyerik Less the lithium, more the electrolyte and cathode materials.
Hey I want to learn assembly level language programming that u did in programming this chip .....plz make a video and informative one and various aspects while programming
I think it's possible to re-use Li-on chargers, just add Schottky diode in series.
Na-ion's energy density is barely more than NiMH at the moment and they're a drop-in replacement for almost nothing due to their characteristics though I'm sure things will improve.
I think these will be much more interesting when you can buy cheap charge controller and cell protection chips. In theory they should be able to increase the capacity a little based on the research I've read, to perhaps half of li-ion cells. That means we could see 1500-1600mAh cells, although the timeline on that is a bit fuzzy. That's a good capacity for low-power applications - think devices that currently use rechargeable AA or AAA cells. Especially in devices that charge themselves, like solar powered garden lights. As long as the device runs the cells down to about 0.8V/cell, this could be an easy swap for a two-cell device (obviously with slight physical modification), and you'd be getting most of the capacity of the cells.
how does this compare to the new graphite/graphene batteries phone companies r using
Interesting topic, i can imagine them in throwavay devices, to make them cheaper. Oh, and here what we came for: 5:00
Nice.
I want these powering my first e-bike.
No you don't. These batteries are half the power of lithium ion. Then again maybe these won't explode and burn your house down. Which is a plus.
@@1pcfredisn’t that what the pannier rack is for?
@@SproutyPottedPlant no
You can get lifepo4 packs for scooters.
@@jimmybrad156 better known as, ignition sources.
Awesome 👍😎❤❤
How do they behave in low temperatures?
these will be the ones who can hold most energy(lose at least so far)
Any idea of the self-discharge rate?
For the cost of production and environmentally friendly side the sodium ion batteries are better than lithium even with the drawback of lower density and lower voltage i have a lot of DIY stuff that works with lithium ion 18650, once the sodium batteries get popular and price drop i will replace and adjust all to work with this new technology instead.
how does the battery behave in parallel?
I guess just like a single 2600mAh cell.
I wonder how these batteries compare to lifepo4
Maybe solid state sodium ion tecnology can compete with lithium on some areas... like smartphones and acessories...
How do you recharge them?
For large scale stationery, build a power station.
What about adding 4-terminal drop compensated voltage measurement to your battery analyzer? Really neat device!
would it be needed? The max current is 2.56A, minimal drop probably
You obviously didn't watch the video, as the 4-wire connections are clearly visible eg: 5:48
@@johncoops6897 You obviously didn't watch the video, as he talked about the voltage drop in the measurement.
@@kyoudaiken - I did watch it, did you? The 4-wire is clearly shown.
@@johncoops6897 It doesn't show where the wires go so I'd not assume anything.
They're the right thing for immobile storage plants. We can mass produce them cheaply and weight is irrelevant.
We should save lithium and only use it for mobile applications.
What's soduium?
Na
Chinese drunk spelling .
Cool
Someone needs to come up with a TP4056-equivalent for these cells
First video I've seen, on this channel. Without knowing anything about the narrator, I'd guess someone from Scandinavia, who learned their English, deep in the Welsh Valleys; possibly travelling his linguistic journey, in the company of an Italian.
LOL. You clearly have a deep knowledge of the Welsh Valley accent!
He is polish or from Lithuania
@@MoesKeckeEcke Any idea where he learned his English? Thanks for that info. M.
@@munchingsquirrel5067 Almost certainly not, but what most people consider the 'Welsh Accent', is from the valleys, in particular the long, drawing out of the last syllable, with a curious tonal inflexion in the middle. In the north of Ireland, my homeplace, we tend to raise the tone/pitch towards the end of sentences, making it seem we are constantly asking questions, but this seems to rise, and fall again on that last syllable. I have, quite clearly, a terrible ear for accents, so ignore all of the above. Regards, M.
And the price?
Those seem like a good replacement for NiMh cells.
It's not, because NiMh cells are usually used for consumer goods with 1.2v, if you made sodium ion in AA size, people will put it in their remote and wonder why it blew up, nimh will stay the regular replacable AA battery because people will put the wrong chemistry in, also it doesn't incentivize planned obsolescence which makes companies money, sodium ion will simply exist alongside lithium ion in 18650 size in battery packs, but not in AA size
@@sigataros in 99.99% of times cells are paired so the voltage is 3V and more (1.5 to 1.6 of brand new alkaline AA batteries), could replace pair of cells by a single one. Smartass
vioce is so soothing brother trough god
I’ve seen the videos of “The Back Yard Scientist” throwing blocks of sodium into ponds and lakes, it goes with one hell of a bang on contact with water, even more so than lithium.
How I’d a sodium battery safer than a lithium battery?
Sodium ion batteries have a higher internal resistance, which means that if they are short-circuited, they don't produce enough heat to catch fire spontaneously.
NA-ion batteries have disadvantages.
At only 1.3 Ah, the cells are very small. I can get LiFePo4 cells with 200 to 300Ah.
The price per Ah is still very high.
The NA-ion battery has a wide voltage range of 1.5 to 4 volts, with LFP it is a maximum of 2.8 to 3.6V.
The advantage is that NA cells are frost-proof and can survive discharges down to 0V.
The capacity comparison you make between Na-ion and LiFePo4 does not make sense. For a cell of the same size (e.g 18650), you can get LiFePo4 cells that are only marginally bigger than this Na-ion (up to 2 Ah maybe?). For normal lithium cells, the difference is a little bigger (up to around 3.5 Ah).
I would argue that Na-ion is probably around the same price per Ah as LiFePo4 cells (I saw you can buy 4 pcs of the cells mentioned in the video for only 13$). I think you would also easily spend that money on 4x1.3 Ah worth of LiFePo4 cells. But compared to normal lithium cells, yes, it is probably a bit more expensive still.
But I am suprised by how cheap and well available these cells already seem to be :-)
There is too much focus on pure battery chemistry for storing electrical energy. Maybe the solution for storing energy doesn't lie in chemistry, but in something else, like special capacitors, magnets, coils and something else that has not been "discovered" yet? Maybe some sort of nuclear fission that we still don't know about?
Sir. How does work the electronic transformer
Ask Chat GPT
Yeah Na!
two cells with two dummycells would provide the 6V that some 4 cells devices would use
"Soduium ion battery" printed on their case. Is it a misprint from the manufacturer?
Yeah china lol
please show us a (cheap/easy) away to use these battery instead of AAA or AA batteries (voltage differences)
Salt IS the future !......cheers.
I wonder why they chose 18650 size. i would have picked something a bit bigger for these instead.
They're also making 10Ah, 18Ah, 75Ah and 210Ah cells.
@@DiodeGoneWildthat's nice🙂👍
The benefit of sodium-ion batteries is that they can use existing lithium-ion manufacturing process. That may partly be reason why they went with 18650.
@@richardlighthouse5328 - Diode simply chose the 18650 size when purchasing. These batteries are available in other form factors.
Sodium batteries are useful somewhere.
Even more salt, now the battery has 2357 mAh
Even more salt, now the battery outperformed lithium ion
Even more salt, now i summoned a dodgy black hole
At least these don't say 8000mah capacity.
I like your accent
he never disappoint us love you brother ❤️❤️❤️
0:27 a manufacturer by the brand vapcell actually produces 3800 and even 4000mAh 18650's now and they are in fact real :) technology has come a long way however such cells only really meet their rating at a lower discharge rate.
I am very skeptical about that. Maybe some cells have the 4 Ah capacity, but that drops off quite fast after the first 50 cycles. And after 500 cycles they are bricked by internal resistance.
thats definitely not true, even lithium ion 18650 can't reach that high and they have been developed for more than 20 years with smaller ions
Fake batteries..
15 dollars for a single battery...
@@1marcelfilmsthe earth is round
@0:07 I am sorry but these are not Sodium batteries. These are next gen SODUIUM batteries. Based on alien technology
"Soduium ion battery" sounds as trustworthy as the Ultrafire LiIon 18650's XD
And it's a new element: "Soduium"..
Triple the capacity from 1.3a (your going to need as good as or better than current technology to break the market), and the voltage curve is too wide at realistic long term life useable 3.7 to 2.5v range. Going by the realistic 90% charge 20% discharge figures for longer term cell life, there's a 1.2v span difference for sodium charge/discharged compared to Lithium's 4.1 to 3.6v per cell charged/discharge which is only 0.5v difference. On a 24v pack for instance this gives 8 sodium cells a 8v 28v to 20v swing (full charge curve of 31.2v to 16v which is just un-useable! compared to Lithium's 29.4v to 23v or 25.2 to 19.8 depending on if you chose 7s or 6s), and do not forget Lithium's 3 fold average energy density!. Sodium could get there but its too early for the tech to be of much more use than the hobbyist/low yield projects, but I hope it does make it.
Why it say Soduim, not sodium, typo or is this fake product again?
I didn't even notice :D
Didn't mention the cost.
How about that no country would have a monopoly on the materials used to create the batteries. That is the main reason to migrate to them.
05:47 win error/warning sound
USB disconnect?
Thanks, What was the price compared to lithium ion?
I would not trust a manufacturer who cannot write sodium correctly