Wow, that discharge slope looks awful. I love how the narrator says "This makes the state of charge easy to measure with a volt meter." Well yeah, but that's totally insignificant compared to all the problems it causes. The long voltage plateau in the Li-Ion discharge is one of the greatest things about Lithium batteries.
@@cleversolarpower differences is a good thing. If they each have advantages and continue to be developed each will find unique use cases that are optimal - right tool for the job. We need lots of stationary storage and heating the cells for charging in cold climates is a disadvantage with LFP (in addition to the obvious need for lithium).
its both - good and bad. BMS can't do the job perfect which leads to some cells dying much earlier than expected. A graph like this allows BMS to work much more efficient and control depth of discharge of cells much more accurate. Considering this effect is cumulative - it is much more important than anything else. Keep in mind that Hight voltage packs contain dozens of cells in sequence, its not the same as in your phone. The downside is the lower minimum voltage, for sure, it will reduce maximum power output, but we rarely use those anyway. I bet 90% of charge-discharge happens between 90 and 20% charge.
Yes, once the infrastructure is in place, Sodium ion can surely replace LIFEPO4 for solar and back up situations..I would suspect the cells will be half the cost..I'm extremely happy with my Catl LIFEPO4 cells, they tested at 292 Ah's when they were brand new, over 3 years ago, and test at 288 Ah's last month, still well over their 280Ah rated capacity..And I'm totally off grid, and they power everything in my house, everyday..They do have a 10,000 cycle life to 80%, a good bit better than your average LIFEPO4 cells.They were manufactured for the EV market, I believe..
Did you know that LiFePO4 can do 10000 cycles too? Without stating exactly how you determine end of life you can claim anything. Show me the specs for a sodium cell to obtain 10000 cycles and then we are talking. So far any manufacturer's data that I've come across that claims 10000 cycles seems to 'accidentally' leave this critical information out. Well known names in the industry rate their sodium cells at 1000 to 4000 charge/discharge cycles to 80% of original capacity and that's what people should be working with until they understand how cycle life data is produced.
@@retrozmachine1189 That is what my comment says, that my Catl LIFEPO4 cells are rated for 10,000 cycles to 80%...When they were brand new they tested at 292 Ah's, over 3 years ago, last month they tested at 288 Ah's, still above their 280 Ah rating after 3 years of living off grid and pounding them everyday..It would take some serious proof to make me ever switch technologies..
LFP cells can easily last for 10-15K cycles. BTW: also do Li-Ion cells. Which advantage do Na+ cells have for solar power storage systems? Its not the cost. Na+ will cost the same as LFP. Currently they are twice to three times more expensive. Its only the better temperature handling.
@@cleversolarpower I disagree. We have an abundance in lithium. The US and Mexico alone have enough Lithium to power 50 billion vehicle batteries. The Germans have enough to power the whole EU for the next 200 years. Without recycling.
Nice video. Sodium-ion are clearly for the future. Most people are looking for plug and play and the best info to make good decisions when designing their system. Maybe you can give your take on prismatics and pouce cell here or in a video. For me its hell of job to make sense of the product line of for example Litime. smart, plus, mini. and more. Another idea for a video is server rack vs old school lifep04. Thanks for your efforts to make things a bit more clear for us.
Thanks for your comment. Those are good video ideas. Concerning the pouch cells, I recommend using prismatic. But if space is limited, then use the litime mini, which has pouch cells.
The voltage range seems like it would play mostly nice with most common inverters in a 4S config. Bottom shut off is typically 10 volts so roughly 10% left in the battery. 15 volts is the usual max for most cheap inverters. Better ones 15.5 and true solar units are 17. So you are likely going to only be able to charge it to 90%. If it functions like most lithium batteries do, this will increase its cycle life so the voltage range is actually ideal. Love how its discharge curve makes it easy to read.
Nice to see a sodium battery with a claimed 4000-cycle life (at 80%+). Thus far, I only saw announcements of one with 2000 cycles, (IIRC, to be used in bikes in Asia). It will be really interesting to follow the tests and experiences from enthusiasts who run them hard. And hopefully the tech advances fast, as LFP is now cheaper, denser, and can be at least (Edit:) 215Wh/kg (CATL M3P).
The sodium ions charge range of between 1.4 volts and 3.65 volts would almost require two different inverters over its range . If you were to try to use the current from it directly your power would drop continuously until it was less than half what you started with.
No question for now - the LFP will always win! The discharge curve is a desaster the only advantages are the materials used for Na+ (no expensive and problematic materials) and the better temperature stability esp. in cold state. Prices will also go done as production raises. They will (and need to) be cheaper than LFP soon i guess. But i would still stick to LFP if weight and volume matter.
Excellent concise comparison, thank you, this came up in my feed and now I have subscribed to your channel. One big drawback is that because of the huge voltage range of the sodium ion cell, none of our existing inverters will work with these unless you are willing to only use a fraction of the capacity of the cells.
I think I'd rather wait until we see a data sheet from CATL or LG. The 4000 cycle life sounds... too good to be true. Also the max temp of 45C is unworkable for somewhere like Australia. Given Sydney (by no means the hottest place here) is currently experiencing daily temps in the mid 30's, just add a little heat from the battery and you're going to need a cooling system.
I have been watching the “ salt water “ batteries for several years and have not been able to acquire any information concerning their output , life or any responses from buyers as to how well the batteries hold up .? I thank you for providing some resent information on them .
I have very limited info on salt water batteries. They charge very slow and discharge very slow. Best use where power is applied to them gently. Example: Off grid cabin with LED lights, phone charging, computer and small amp draw appliances. You would avoid installing and using equipment such as air compressors or high amp motors ect. A small single AC unit with low amp draw would be ok but, a Multi AC units cooling many rooms with tons of amp draw would be very bad. Note: They have nearly a complete recycle capability and are cheap to make as well as ( stack ) in Parallel or Series. These batteries have a lower energy density compared to their counterparts.This would result in a Bigger battery space in size to get the same amount of amp hours. They conduct energy poorly compared to other batteries resulting in a softer draw of power from them. The batteries are 100% non toxic. Non- flammable. Life cycles are much larger then other batteries in their class. ( Guessing its due to the gentle charge and discharge rates ). Probably know all this. Just thought I'd weigh in here. If they were Mass produced the result would be some of the CHEAPEST batteries on the market.
Oh dear, the „salt water battery “ term is at best good marketing. It is borderline false advertising - I would prefer to call it euphemistic propaganda 😉. Don‘t be mislead to assume that they use a „safe“ saline solution as the electrolyte. In reality, it should better be called a „molten sodium-nickel-chloride battery“: while the reactants do include sodium chloride and nickel chloride, the elephant in the room is the liquid metallic sodium used as the negative electrode. The solid electrolyte separator in the form of a membrane of beta-alumina needs to be heated to 270 degrees Celsius to become sufficiently conductive, which may be one of the reasons it has somewhat gone out of fashion for vehicle applications. For stationary use, these batteries that were formerly known as „Zebra“ are still being manufactured, but I consider them far to be expensive for small scale household energy storage. Since the only remaining manufacturers is located in Switzerland, there are a few subsidized installations here and there, but my guess it that this battery type may soon be a bit of a dead horse.
since it is not mentioned what form that the sodium is in (table salt (NACL) or some other salt or metal sodium foil). either way the manufacturing process should be the same as lithium ion as far as the application of the battery material layers and the rolling/folding/stacking and the insertion into the can and sealing up so the only differences maybe is no need to do the manufacturing in a vacuum fire suppression gas environment such as co2, nitrogen, helium or even sf6 gas.
That 113F max charging temp could be trouble. Ambient temps often go 100F. And if you put some stress on the battery it may easily go over 113. Good for cooler climates, though. Any mods needed for your inverter to work at the wider range of voltage?
Measuring energy density by weight is a silly thing to do even though it is oft cited. Measure it per volume. This is the part that matters. How much space does it take to store X kWh of energy, ie watt hours per litre.
Good point. The datasheets are often made for the EV industry where weight is more of a concern than volume. For off-grid i think both are not very relevant. A 220Ah Na+ battery has similar weight and dimensions as a 280Ah LiFePO4 battery cell. Not that big of a difference for a technology that is developing.
That upper charge temperature limit will not be acceptable for many parts of the world. If that is not improved this chemistry is going nowhere, except for niche applications that may require only cold temperature performance.
I'm hoping that an eventual v2 of Aptera uses sodium or LFP cells. The density and charge/discharge keeps improving for sodium since the tech isnt as far into development as LFP. For low cost vehicles or those with smaller batteries like Aptera the environmental, temperature and cost (eventually) advantages make sense vs LFP or NCM. The current version of Aptera going into production soon will use NCM but long term I think the EV industry will see nickel based chemistries similar to engines that need premium gas; LFP or sodium will be good enough for the masses.
The LIGHTER the vehicle the SMALLER (volume) and more ENERGY DENSE (volumetric AND gravimetric) the pack needs to be. . So if anything the Nickel based (or derivative) cells will be used in SMALL vehicles where the pack is a LARGER percentage of total vehicle weight.
Rare earth is a specific tag used to denote a set of heavy elements also known as lanthanides. They do not include cobolt, manganese or other rare elements used in battery manufacture. They do include neodynium which is used for magnets such as what might be in an electric motor. You should refer to rare elements used in battery manufacture as rare elements. Rare earth elements means something else.
This video is very informative for my thesis. I would like to know which company's sodium battery you used for the comparison? I mean, the data sheet is from which sodium battery manufacturer?
I'm sorry, what rare earth materials are you talking about at the and of the video? Similarly, in the comparison section, LiFePO4 materails "scarce"? Umm... What?
The Steep voltage curve means, it would be difficult to get an inverter to work with those batteries. 1.5 x16s= 24volts at dead, and 63.2v at full, I've not seen an inverter handle that range. Even if you cut off at 2v / cell that'd still be 32v at the low, and 3.5v for the top would be 56v. Which makes sourcing an inverter almost impossible. The batteries look good besides that.
With supercharging highly saturated and widely dispersed, 160Wh/Kg is all you will need. The challenge rests now in rollout of the super charging networks.
Thought one of the big advantages to sodium batteries was also their charge rates which were supposed to be higher than lithium by a significant amount
this sodium batteries are stonk a really good replacement for lithium the graph basically shows how solid its performance would be irl since it be as basic as plug and play and safe too as no or less combustion if there's any i would expect the life of this kind of batteries would exceed 10/15 years minimum since it needs less maintenance and durable AF
I agree, very similar to lifepo4. However, the voltage can become a problem. Most inverters cutoff at 10V, 2.5V per cell, so that would mean there is still 35% capacity left in the cell.
So 14 of these cells would match my charging voltage of existing Lifepo4 cells in each pack. 12.166kw compared to 14.336kw. Even if I could not add these to my existing setup unless I had another inverter that could use that range for NA batteries. That is a huge voltage range.
Cycling could be done from 2.3V-3.65V per cell or 9.2V-14.6V for a 12V battery. That's from 15% to 95%. This fits the input voltage of the victron inverter. Renogy low cutoff is 10V, so that would be 2.5V per cell at 35% capacity left.
@@cleversolarpower i'm 48 volt. I am not saying I would not mind adding another inverter. When these get at a better price I would get 2 packs and add another 5kw of solar also.
The 0.5C charge rate means its not very viable for EVs since it would take 2 hours to charge. That means there is less incentive for high volume manufacturing so the prices probably won't come down that fast. I think the voltage range is too high. A 14s NA+ battery would have a similar full charge as a 16s LFP battery around 55.3 volts, but the discharge voltage would be only 21 V in contrast to 40 V for LFP. I don't think there are many loads that can handle that range, so you would have to leave a lot of the capacity unused.
Indeed, it's less interesting for the EV industry. the voltages are both high and low. But leaving some capacity unused will increase it's lifespan. And if the price is going to be half, it's well worth it in my opinion.
Looking at the current market, fast charging is expensive anyway (and I believe it is not even properly taxed here in Europe). EVs are most competitive if you charge with your own electricity, or at a cheap tariff at night- both of which are variants of slow charging. And I really hope it becomes the norm to have cheap (free?) slow charging from solar at work, while using/selling that same electricity from the EV at peak tarrifs in the morning and evening while at home. Sodium in EV would work just fine for this.
There's multiple different sodium ion chemistries (layered metal oxides, prussian blue analogues and polyanion) and they have different characteristics (although all seem to do well in the cold). The HiNa cells in the JAC Yiwei microcar is a layered metal oxide using Copper. The vehicle is now in series production and Yiwei claims a 10-80% charge time of only 20mins. I.e. > 2C. HiNa claims a 4,500 cycle life time. I'd be very surprised if sodium ion doesn't scale. The Chinese don't need to throw much in the way of subsidies/purchasing mandates to support growth, particularly given sodium ion batteries are built using very similar machinery as lithium ion. As the largest importer of lithium and oil and a major importer of LNG and thermal coal its in their interests to support this tech as it will help keep the price of energy and lithium down.
The claim that LiFePO4 batteries don't burn is false. They just don't burn as _aggressively_ as lithium ion batteries because they don't produce their own O2 during combustion.
Yikes! Sodium ion (Na+) hits 12V (multiply the cell voltage X4 to get the voltage for a 12V nominal battery of 4 cells in series) around 35% discharge (65% SOC). Some devices aren't going to operate very well below 12V, so that means the useful capacity of Na+ would only be 35% of its stated capacity! It is unclear from the chart what discharge rate the curve represents. If that is at 1C, then that's bad enough. But if that is at 0.2C, the voltage sag would likely be worse, and Na+ could be virtually useless for typical 12V applications. For example, many inverters will have reduced output with a source below 12V, and a lot will cut off at 11V. It just gets worse from there. The curve presented shows 11V at 50%, and only 10V at around 75% discharged (25% SOC). Meanwhile, a LiFePO4 battery (LFP) only drops to 12V once it has discharged 98% of its capacity (2% SOC)--at a full 1C discharge rate! LFP batteries will be WAY better for applications like running an inverter or any appliance that is sensitive to voltages lower than 12V. On the bright side, for 48V applications, one could add a 17th cell in series and, kick up the nominal voltage to 52.7, and get a little more life, but that steady voltage curve means that the 100%SOC voltage would be a shocking (quite literally) 65.45V. Anything above 50V is generally considered dangerous to humans. That voltage curve is the most disappointing thing I have seen regarding Na+ batteries. I don't think they would actually work for any standard application. They will be relegated to extremely large applications like electric vehicles with highly customized controllers that can handle these extreme voltage variations. Even though that's of little use for most of my applications, bulk Na+ adoption by EVs might still relieve some of the pressure on Lithium so that prices for Li-ion and LiFePO4 batteries could drop dramatically.
Great comment, the low voltage is a problem if we want to cycle like lifepo4. However, this would be easily offset by a decrease in cost in the future. i'm not sure, but i would expect the test to be done at 1C discharge. We have to see what the future holds.
@@cleversolarpower Like you said in the video, IF prices come down (but they need to come down by a factor of 3x or 4x to even be comparable to LFP) then it could make sense for fixed applications. But for the same amount of energy storage and delivery over the life of the batteries, the batteries will weigh more, take up more space, and have a somewhat troublesomely-low voltage curve compared to LFP. If they can solve the energy density and cost problems, I hope Na+ will eventually be an acceptable solution for EVs, which are putting extreme pressure on the global lithium market right now. Keep in mind that LFP prices have dropped by about 80% in the last 4 years. So, even as Na+ prices fall over the next few years, LFP battery prices may also fall, keeping it hard for Na+ to be economically viable. This is not an unlikely scenario as companies like Tesla are currently developing their own lithium mining and processing operations here in the U.S. which should ease the pressure and prices on the world market for lithium.
My issue is finding an inverter with sufficient input range. A 48v (100% SoC) pack could go as low as 24v at 10% SoC. Who makes an inverter that can work with that range? 24v-48v input. I haven't found one yet.
Good point. These are the input voltages of victron inverters: 9.3-17V 18.6-34V 37.2-68V 9.3V=2.32V/cell which is 15% capacity left. I would say this is do-able.
There's a little sleight of hand in the comparison chart. That 0.5C for cycles means you need twice as many batteries for the same available energy as with LiFePO4 batteries. So, in reality, the functionally energy density of Na+ is not 155W/kg, but 77.5W/kg. Contrast that with 180W/kg for LiFePO4. Also, the cost is $180 per comparable Amp-hours, contrasted with $70 for LiFePO4. More simply, the cost per available amp-hour for a 12V nominal battery is going to be about $0.30/Ah for LiFePO4 vs. $0.82/Ah for Na+. That means that for now, Na+ is 2.7 times more expensive than LiFePO4.
@@cleversolarpower O.5C actually applies to a lot of things. It can apply to the charge or discharge rate, sure. But the one I mentioned is "0.5C for cycles" if you read my comment carefully. See your video at 1:30 where you refer to that. The rating of 4000 cycle life for Na+ is for only 0.5C depth of discharge. That means that you only get 4000 cycles if you only use the battery from 100% to 50% SOC for each cycle. Usually, that means, as in the case of lead-acid batteries, that discharging below 50% SOC is hard on the batteries and that if you cycled from 100% to 0% per cycle, you would get way fewer than half the rated cycles due to battery damage. In this case for Na+, the reason for the limitation of 0.5C for 4000 cycle life of the battery is not clear, so it might be for that reason. Or it could be that they recognize that the battery voltage is likely too low below 50% SOC to be generally useful. But at best case, I would suspect that cycle life for 100% depth of discharge would be 2000 cycles, but I suspect it would be more like 200 cycles based on other info I have seen about the cycle life of Na+ batteries. Bottom line is that over the life of the battery, you will get only half the energy output from these Na+ Cells as you would get from the LFP cells you compare them to in this video. That is a significant factor in true cost of a battery over its lifetime.
@@daveduncan2748 0.5C refers to the SPEED of charging or discharging. The DEPTH of discharge is still 100%. A 220Ah cell can be discharged with up to 110 Amps from 100% to 0% and then charged from 0% to 100% with 110 Amps. This would take a total of 4 hours and counts as one full cycle out of the 4000 cycles available as per manufacturer.
Sodium batteries should cost 1/8 that of lithium but so far they are pricing like they are lithium, get the manufacturing up & prices down, once they become the low cost alternative Sodium will own the battery market.
@@cleversolarpower Sodium carbonate costs approximately $290 per metric ton. Lithium carbonate (99.5% battery grade), on the other hand, commands a significantly higher price of approximately $35,000 per metric ton. Materials cost are far cheaper but manufacturing methods/cost are similar. They don't have manufacturing built in scale yet which should lower cost.
@@cleversolarpower But i'm not totally out here. These are the early steps for Na as electron donor. This is what Li-Ion was 20 years ago. I guess we meet again in 10 years and have an actual replacement for Lithium in car batteries. But at the moment, these are devastating news.
90 vs 75. Yeah no. if it is 35 then It will be reasonable. Pointless to buy an inferior product higher price. I will wait a decade to see if china man can work miracles again.
So too may shitty stats and to few benefits for ca. 30% more expensive price... Sorry mann but That is crap if the would have cost a 1/4 of the LIFEPO4 then it would have been a considerable alternative. But this crap battery can be frankly ignored
The wide working voltage range of sodium batteries are not favourable, i like that LiFePo4 has a dead flat discharge curve between 90 and 10% SOC, and prices have come down quite a bit since the old thundersky/calb batteries from 10 years ago, also in energy density has improved tremendously.
Exactly, the voltage curve is so crappy I don't see how it can work except in specialized equipment. It will certainly not works with any inverter I have.
@@thatyoutubeguy7583 Pb is 2.3 to 1.65 (0.65) while LFP is 3.2 to 3.125 (0.08). Yes, you can pull a LFP battery much lower, but from my tests, there's about 15min (@25A) left in the pack at 3.125v, and about 60s from 3.1 to 2.5/2.8. The only real issue I see with Na is the extremely high charge voltage. For a cell that settles at 3.1v, 3.95v is insanely high (read: wasteful, it's just generates heat) It's going to take special chargers to handle these things. (much like NiMH, where something has to externally keep track of charge.)
We received the same specification a few days ago. When I was looking on the SOC OCV chart for the first time, I was terrified since you either need to have a wide inverter input or you can't use the whole capacity. What I'm missing even more is data about Round Trip Efficiency (often 3 x times - full charge - discharge cycle) !! My expertise with LFP/C is that they can reach RTE of 95-96 % (Benergy, EVE, 50 Ah). The voltage gap between charge and discharge with sodium ion doesn't seem promising in this regard. Do you have data?? Also, what is about calendaric aging ? Data is out there for LFP/C. Last but not least - concerning costs, we see market prices in January 2024 for 280 Ah cells from Hithium and REPT for 56/54 €/pcs without transport - resulting in approx 60 USD/kWh. I agree that Na-ion will keep the cost pressure on LFP high. By the way - what does the voltage/SOC graph look like @ low temperatures?
Good point. I don't have data about the round trip efficiency. Neither do I have information about the voltage graph at low temps. I will ask suppliers about these. I was lucky to receive an English datasheet, all the others were in Chinese.
@@cleversolarpower ah yes, there is no data about the "round trip efficiency" because it probably is most likely very bad. also there is no information how long they keep the charge.
and what is also intereseting is the continous C rating. I saw a testgraph from TÜV which shows that the output power is dependent on SOC, like if you have a 200Ah Cell it can output 200A but when the SOC is at 50% it outputs only 50% like 100A, could you ask this also, please ?
Could you do a similar comparison between Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries and ZnBr batteries (both the Redflow and Gelion). No one suggests that these will be useful for mobile applications but look at them for static applications. For home use, the most important factors for me are 1)longevity, 2) price and 3) hands off operation.
The most prominent advantage would be that Sodium has an advantage in Cold weather, and could be appealing to those who live in cold climates. Other than that it I prefer LiFePO4 Batteries.
Yes, another point is that it doesn't use lithium. So it's more sustainable long term. But if you already have lithium batteries or plan to do so in the next year, then LiFePO4 is still the best choice.
@@cleversolarpower "So it's more sustainable long term." 1. What is the difference of sustainability in the short and long term. 2: Na+ cells use very expensive electrolytes which counter your argument - today. 3: Na+ cells - at least the current ones - use hard carbon for whcih you need a great amount of energy to produce, they are not naturallay available. Some cell developments try to use brown coal but those are not available - today.
@@cleversolarpower *I can't buy Na-Ion on Amazon or Ebay. If I do a google search for them I end up at Ali-Express every time. Maybe you can provide a link to a cheap Sodium battery store that is local and discounted???*
Where is a comparison of voltage, current, SOC Ah and SOC % ENERGY curves with suitable inverter/charger / MPPT ? This is only reading from pdfs which is not true. Reality is always different from pdfs specs.
That maximum charging temperature of 113F for Na-Ion is going to be a big problem in hot weather. That's not the outdoor air temperature. That's the max temperature allowed inside the batteries. Batteries generate a lot of internal heat when being used and when being charged. When you're driving a car in 99F weather the batteries get much hotter than that. So if you pull up to a DC Fast Charger you might have to wait for it to cool down. Also the car will restrict its charge rate to protect the battery. Fast Charging generates a LOT of heat. I certainly wouldn't use these Na-Ion batteries in a car. I know some companies are planning to use Na-Ion in cars, but they'll have to be better than these.
The Voltage Range from the SOC Batterys are bad, cheap measuring equipment is capabile of reading in mV but Inverter with wide voltage Range are less efficient. Also with more cells the output Power decreas signifficant. Example: LifePo4 under load Full 3.3V Empty 2.9V Diff = 0,4V 10Cells = 4V so from 33V@100A=3300W to 29V@100A=2900W means 12% Power loss Example: SOC under load Full 3.45V Empty 2.25V Diff = 1,2V 10Cells = 12V so from 34,5V@100A=3450W to 22,5V@100A=2250W means 34% Power loss
Need a few more years real world testing and manufacturing refinement/pricing reduction, about another 5 years, then may make the swap (see if people really do get 4000 cycles out of them real world!). Looks promising, but for now will stick with tried and very tested LifePo4... Other problem is charge temperature, as batteries get hot after a discharge, and an upper charge temp of 45c is a limit for some applications, especially where cells are packed together in the real world, 45c is not very hot at all (my LifePo4 can get that hot and more in summer which would mean if they were Na+ you couldn't charge them in the day on a solar array!).
@@cleversolarpowerMany places on earth have 35c on a hot day like Germany where I life, in a building with out aircondition like a garage even more, than add some heat from the charging and you are above spec.
Not even at half the price are they comparable to the LiFePO4. They still need to prove the robustness; and at the same cycle of the LiFePO4 the certainly lack they promise.
If they are half the price it would be worth it for sure. For solar system, the charging c-rate (0.5C) is never going to be that high. The LiFePO4 280Ah battery has 6,000 cycles, but the smaller one 230Ah has 4,000, just like the sodium battery. So the cycle life is not a real problem in my opinion.
A bit disappointed in the statement that the safety aspects between LiFePo and Sodium batts are the "same", as to me this indicates the sodiums will have the same shipping restrictions. I hope not. I live off the road system only approachable by jet or barge and shipping charges for the lithium batteries cost as much or more than the cells, using either ship method. Most places in the U.S. will not even ship here. I hope the shipping standard gets an early review..
I've read online that sodium ion can be shipped at 0V or 0% soc. However, the data-sheet didn't mention it. We will have to see of shipping companies pick this up and change their precautions about shipping these batteries.
How much cheaper do you think sodium ion could get than lithium? Is the lithium a major expense of a battery and is sodium radically cheaper? Great video. Thx.
1. Lithium-ion batteries can enter an uncontrollable, self-heating state. This can result in the release of gas, cause fire and possible explosion. 2. The major issue with lithium-ion batteries overheating is a phenomenon known as thermal runaway. In this process, the excessive heat promotes the chemical reaction that makes the battery work, thus creating even more heat and ever more chemical reactions in a disastrous spiral. 3. Lithium-ion batteries can explode or catch fire due to a phenomenon called thermal runaway. Thermal runaway is a chain reaction that occurs when the battery experiences a rapid increase in temperature, leading to the release of energy and potentially causing a catastrophic failure. Sodium-ion batteries have none of these problems... Google, results in .45 seconds.
The voltage range possibly means series wiring in practice, and possibly boost conversion otherwise quite a bit of current needed below 3v for power apps. Could be useful for EVs sold in colder climates and niche applications.
Higher Voltage is also nice for a 16s energy storage system. less current (some did already built 18s before). Also with the better temperature range for charging, it can easily be placed in the garage, where lifepo had to be placed on heating pads to be charged on sunny but ice cold winter days.
If you look at Na-ion's voltage-SoC curves, Na-ion's is almost linear with SoC from 2.6V to 3.6V vs mostly flat about 3.2V from 20% through 80% for LFP. Na-ion will require higher current through the bottom 60% of SoC when using the same cell count and loads able to cope with ~800mV more peak-to-peak SoC swing per cell.
Hmm, there are a lot of disadvantages here. That SoC curve is crazy. I'll be sticking with LiFePo4 for my home battery backup. I can see this being useful if you live in very cold areas, but it'll take some extra considerations when designing a system with Sodium Ion, like larger gauge wires than you'd expect. Also weight. 100 Ah LifePo4 packs are already around 100 pounds when in a rack mount case, which is heavy enough. Sodium Ion will be even heavier.
Iron & Phosphate are wildly available & aren't scarce. Arguably Lithium becomes more abundant by the day as well. Currently lithium is slightly less abundant but St Georges Eco Mining proves its 100% recyclable with no waste so into 2030 its availability will skyrocket. They're both viable but your comparison is misleading.
Not 100% - keep in mind just because you can cycle and we do find more Li, Iron, or Phosphate - there is still always going to be a supply choke because the demand is too high. Thus we can't really make more battery production unless we can get access to more supply. Na doesnt have this issue at all as the supply and mining of it is already out paces that demand and thus more supply can be turn into production for demand. Along with the fact you are still price limited by Li OR Iron OR Phosphate where you only have to deal with Na instead or maybe one other element demanding on make up later.
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Wow, that discharge slope looks awful. I love how the narrator says "This makes the state of charge easy to measure with a volt meter." Well yeah, but that's totally insignificant compared to all the problems it causes. The long voltage plateau in the Li-Ion discharge is one of the greatest things about Lithium batteries.
Hey, we got to focus on the positives 😄
it doesn't die all the sudden....you have lots of warning as the lightbulb gets dimmer...
Lmao
@@cleversolarpower differences is a good thing. If they each have advantages and continue to be developed each will find unique use cases that are optimal - right tool for the job. We need lots of stationary storage and heating the cells for charging in cold climates is a disadvantage with LFP (in addition to the obvious need for lithium).
its both - good and bad.
BMS can't do the job perfect which leads to some cells dying much earlier than expected.
A graph like this allows BMS to work much more efficient and control depth of discharge of cells much more accurate.
Considering this effect is cumulative - it is much more important than anything else.
Keep in mind that Hight voltage packs contain dozens of cells in sequence, its not the same as in your phone.
The downside is the lower minimum voltage, for sure, it will reduce maximum power output, but we rarely use those anyway. I bet 90% of charge-discharge happens between 90 and 20% charge.
Yes, once the infrastructure is in place, Sodium ion can surely replace LIFEPO4 for solar and back up situations..I would suspect the cells will be half the cost..I'm extremely happy with my Catl LIFEPO4 cells, they tested at 292 Ah's when they were brand new, over 3 years ago, and test at 288 Ah's last month, still well over their 280Ah rated capacity..And I'm totally off grid, and they power everything in my house, everyday..They do have a 10,000 cycle life to 80%, a good bit better than your average LIFEPO4 cells.They were manufactured for the EV market, I believe..
Did you know that LiFePO4 can do 10000 cycles too? Without stating exactly how you determine end of life you can claim anything. Show me the specs for a sodium cell to obtain 10000 cycles and then we are talking. So far any manufacturer's data that I've come across that claims 10000 cycles seems to 'accidentally' leave this critical information out. Well known names in the industry rate their sodium cells at 1000 to 4000 charge/discharge cycles to 80% of original capacity and that's what people should be working with until they understand how cycle life data is produced.
@@retrozmachine1189 That is what my comment says, that my Catl LIFEPO4 cells are rated for 10,000 cycles to 80%...When they were brand new they tested at 292 Ah's, over 3 years ago, last month they tested at 288 Ah's, still above their 280 Ah rating after 3 years of living off grid and pounding them everyday..It would take some serious proof to make me ever switch technologies..
LFP cells can easily last for 10-15K cycles. BTW: also do Li-Ion cells.
Which advantage do Na+ cells have for solar power storage systems? Its not the cost. Na+ will cost the same as LFP. Currently they are twice to three times more expensive.
Its only the better temperature handling.
A good incentive is that it doesn't use lithium, which makes it a more 'sustainable' and long term storage solution.
@@cleversolarpower I disagree. We have an abundance in lithium.
The US and Mexico alone have enough Lithium to power 50 billion vehicle batteries.
The Germans have enough to power the whole EU for the next 200 years.
Without recycling.
Nice video. Sodium-ion are clearly for the future. Most people are looking for plug and play and the best info to make good decisions when designing their system. Maybe you can give your take on prismatics and pouce cell here or in a video. For me its hell of job to make sense of the product line of for example Litime. smart, plus, mini. and more.
Another idea for a video is server rack vs old school lifep04.
Thanks for your efforts to make things a bit more clear for us.
Thanks for your comment. Those are good video ideas. Concerning the pouch cells, I recommend using prismatic. But if space is limited, then use the litime mini, which has pouch cells.
The voltage range seems like it would play mostly nice with most common inverters in a 4S config. Bottom shut off is typically 10 volts so roughly 10% left in the battery. 15 volts is the usual max for most cheap inverters. Better ones 15.5 and true solar units are 17. So you are likely going to only be able to charge it to 90%. If it functions like most lithium batteries do, this will increase its cycle life so the voltage range is actually ideal. Love how its discharge curve makes it easy to read.
Nice to see a sodium battery with a claimed 4000-cycle life (at 80%+). Thus far, I only saw announcements of one with 2000 cycles, (IIRC, to be used in bikes in Asia). It will be really interesting to follow the tests and experiences from enthusiasts who run them hard. And hopefully the tech advances fast, as LFP is now cheaper, denser, and can be at least (Edit:) 215Wh/kg (CATL M3P).
The CATL M3P battery is a bit of a mystery battery it seems. They are not disclosing the materials. I assume you meant Wh/kg instead of MWh/kg 😀
They may have a higher C rating henceforth the lower cycle life
The sodium ions charge range of between 1.4 volts and 3.65 volts would almost require two different inverters over its range . If you were to try to use the current from it directly your power would drop continuously until it was less than half what you started with.
No question for now - the LFP will always win! The discharge curve is a desaster the only advantages are the materials used for Na+ (no expensive and problematic materials) and the better temperature stability esp. in cold state. Prices will also go done as production raises. They will (and need to) be cheaper than LFP soon i guess. But i would still stick to LFP if weight and volume matter.
Excellent concise comparison, thank you, this came up in my feed and now I have subscribed to your channel. One big drawback is that because of the huge voltage range of the sodium ion cell, none of our existing inverters will work with these unless you are willing to only use a fraction of the capacity of the cells.
Thank you for subscribing! Yes, the voltage range is very wide.
Thanks for the information. I'm looking forward to the economies of scale getting the prices down.
I think I'd rather wait until we see a data sheet from CATL or LG. The 4000 cycle life sounds... too good to be true. Also the max temp of 45C is unworkable for somewhere like Australia. Given Sydney (by no means the hottest place here) is currently experiencing daily temps in the mid 30's, just add a little heat from the battery and you're going to need a cooling system.
But -10c is a great advantage for canada, norway etc (and safer/cheaper than nickel). Different climates necessitate different solutions.
I have been watching the “ salt water “ batteries for several years and have not been able to acquire any information concerning their output , life or any responses from buyers as to how well the batteries hold up .? I thank you for providing some resent information on them .
I have very limited info on salt water batteries. They charge very slow and discharge very slow. Best use where power is applied to them gently. Example: Off grid cabin with LED lights, phone charging, computer and small amp draw appliances. You would avoid installing and using equipment such as air compressors or high amp motors ect. A small single AC unit with low amp draw would be ok but, a Multi AC units cooling many rooms with tons of amp draw would be very bad. Note: They have nearly a complete recycle capability and are cheap to make as well as ( stack ) in Parallel or Series. These batteries have a lower energy density compared to their counterparts.This would result in a Bigger battery space in size to get the same amount of amp hours. They conduct energy poorly compared to other batteries resulting in a softer draw of power from them. The batteries are 100% non toxic. Non- flammable. Life cycles are much larger then other batteries in their class. ( Guessing its due to the gentle charge and discharge rates ). Probably know all this. Just thought I'd weigh in here.
If they were Mass produced the result would be some of the CHEAPEST batteries on the market.
Oh dear, the „salt water battery “ term is at best good marketing. It is borderline false advertising - I would prefer to call it euphemistic propaganda 😉. Don‘t be mislead to assume that they use a „safe“ saline solution as the electrolyte. In reality, it should better be called a „molten sodium-nickel-chloride battery“: while the reactants do include sodium chloride and nickel chloride, the elephant in the room is the liquid metallic sodium used as the negative electrode. The solid electrolyte separator in the form of a membrane of beta-alumina needs to be heated to 270 degrees Celsius to become sufficiently conductive, which may be one of the reasons it has somewhat gone out of fashion for vehicle applications. For stationary use, these batteries that were formerly known as „Zebra“ are still being manufactured, but I consider them far to be expensive for small scale household energy storage. Since the only remaining manufacturers is located in Switzerland, there are a few subsidized installations here and there, but my guess it that this battery type may soon be a bit of a dead horse.
since it is not mentioned what form that the sodium is in (table salt (NACL) or some other salt or metal sodium foil).
either way the manufacturing process should be the same as lithium ion as far as the application of the battery material layers and the rolling/folding/stacking and the insertion into the can and sealing up so the only differences maybe is no need to do the manufacturing in a vacuum fire suppression gas environment such as co2, nitrogen, helium or even sf6 gas.
Sodium in form of prussian material and electrolyte consist of Na ELement not nacl, or sodium metal.
That 113F max charging temp could be trouble. Ambient temps often go 100F. And if you put some stress on the battery it may easily go over 113. Good for cooler climates, though. Any mods needed for your inverter to work at the wider range of voltage?
Measuring energy density by weight is a silly thing to do even though it is oft cited. Measure it per volume. This is the part that matters. How much space does it take to store X kWh of energy, ie watt hours per litre.
Good point. The datasheets are often made for the EV industry where weight is more of a concern than volume. For off-grid i think both are not very relevant. A 220Ah Na+ battery has similar weight and dimensions as a 280Ah LiFePO4 battery cell. Not that big of a difference for a technology that is developing.
Measure energy per weight is important for EV especially for aircraft,
That upper charge temperature limit will not be acceptable for many parts of the world. If that is not improved this chemistry is going nowhere, except for niche applications that may require only cold temperature performance.
I'm hoping that an eventual v2 of Aptera uses sodium or LFP cells. The density and charge/discharge keeps improving for sodium since the tech isnt as far into development as LFP. For low cost vehicles or those with smaller batteries like Aptera the environmental, temperature and cost (eventually) advantages make sense vs LFP or NCM. The current version of Aptera going into production soon will use NCM but long term I think the EV industry will see nickel based chemistries similar to engines that need premium gas; LFP or sodium will be good enough for the masses.
The LIGHTER the vehicle the SMALLER (volume) and more ENERGY DENSE (volumetric AND gravimetric) the pack needs to be.
.
So if anything the Nickel based (or derivative) cells will be used in SMALL vehicles where the pack is a LARGER percentage of total vehicle weight.
Rare earth is a specific tag used to denote a set of heavy elements also known as lanthanides. They do not include cobolt, manganese or other rare elements used in battery manufacture. They do include neodynium which is used for magnets such as what might be in an electric motor. You should refer to rare elements used in battery manufacture as rare elements. Rare earth elements means something else.
Nice video. to the point and concise
This video is very informative for my thesis. I would like to know which company's sodium battery you used for the comparison? I mean, the data sheet is from which sodium battery manufacturer?
You can find them on Alibaba.
I'm sorry, what rare earth materials are you talking about at the and of the video? Similarly, in the comparison section, LiFePO4 materails "scarce"? Umm... What?
Lithium is a rare element.
@@cleversolarpower No, it is not. Please, look up the rare earth elements list.
The Steep voltage curve means, it would be difficult to get an inverter to work with those batteries. 1.5 x16s= 24volts at dead, and 63.2v at full, I've not seen an inverter handle that range. Even if you cut off at 2v / cell that'd still be 32v at the low, and 3.5v for the top would be 56v. Which makes sourcing an inverter almost impossible. The batteries look good besides that.
New inverters needed, MPPT inverters,no big deal, but the efficiency will be poorer.
Think these are a game changer reduced fire risk, and cost savings will enable lower income home owners to afford a solar battery system.
Indeed helpfull, informative and entertaining. Thank you so much for this comparison.
Glad it was helpful!
@@cleversolarpower Indeed, this will help me on my way to build my first sodium battery.
With supercharging highly saturated and widely dispersed, 160Wh/Kg is all you will need. The challenge rests now in rollout of the super charging networks.
And the rollout of an electricity grid that is capable of powering EV's 😅
That low voltage side is really low. I wonder about a 17s configuration to keep "48v" inverters from performing badly.
Thought one of the big advantages to sodium batteries was also their charge rates which were supposed to be higher than lithium by a significant amount
No it's about the same from the data i got.
Thank you very interesting, Michael
Thank you very match use-full information
Happy to help
this sodium batteries are stonk a really good replacement for lithium the graph basically shows how solid its performance would be irl since it be as basic as plug and play and safe too as no or less combustion if there's any i would expect the life of this kind of batteries would exceed 10/15 years minimum since it needs less maintenance and durable AF
I agree, very similar to lifepo4. However, the voltage can become a problem. Most inverters cutoff at 10V, 2.5V per cell, so that would mean there is still 35% capacity left in the cell.
Hi, I would like to see you do nail penetration test on Sodium Ion battery.
Have you ever looked into Lead Crystal / Silicon Dioxide Batteries (SiO2) batteries ?
So 14 of these cells would match my charging voltage of existing Lifepo4 cells in each pack. 12.166kw compared to 14.336kw. Even if I could not add these to my existing setup unless I had another inverter that could use that range for NA batteries. That is a huge voltage range.
Cycling could be done from 2.3V-3.65V per cell or 9.2V-14.6V for a 12V battery. That's from 15% to 95%. This fits the input voltage of the victron inverter. Renogy low cutoff is 10V, so that would be 2.5V per cell at 35% capacity left.
@@cleversolarpower i'm 48 volt. I am not saying I would not mind adding another inverter. When these get at a better price I would get 2 packs and add another 5kw of solar also.
The 0.5C charge rate means its not very viable for EVs since it would take 2 hours to charge. That means there is less incentive for high volume manufacturing so the prices probably won't come down that fast.
I think the voltage range is too high. A 14s NA+ battery would have a similar full charge as a 16s LFP battery around 55.3 volts, but the discharge voltage would be only 21 V in contrast to 40 V for LFP. I don't think there are many loads that can handle that range, so you would have to leave a lot of the capacity unused.
Indeed, it's less interesting for the EV industry. the voltages are both high and low. But leaving some capacity unused will increase it's lifespan. And if the price is going to be half, it's well worth it in my opinion.
Looking at the current market, fast charging is expensive anyway (and I believe it is not even properly taxed here in Europe). EVs are most competitive if you charge with your own electricity, or at a cheap tariff at night- both of which are variants of slow charging. And I really hope it becomes the norm to have cheap (free?) slow charging from solar at work, while using/selling that same electricity from the EV at peak tarrifs in the morning and evening while at home. Sodium in EV would work just fine for this.
There's multiple different sodium ion chemistries (layered metal oxides, prussian blue analogues and polyanion) and they have different characteristics (although all seem to do well in the cold).
The HiNa cells in the JAC Yiwei microcar is a layered metal oxide using Copper. The vehicle is now in series production and Yiwei claims a 10-80% charge time of only 20mins. I.e. > 2C. HiNa claims a 4,500 cycle life time.
I'd be very surprised if sodium ion doesn't scale. The Chinese don't need to throw much in the way of subsidies/purchasing mandates to support growth, particularly given sodium ion batteries are built using very similar machinery as lithium ion.
As the largest importer of lithium and oil and a major importer of LNG and thermal coal its in their interests to support this tech as it will help keep the price of energy and lithium down.
Couldn’t you just use some type of switching regulator to produce a constant voltage
I understand that sodium batteries weigh two to three times more than lithium batteries. If true that would rule them out for EVs, but is it true?
They don't weight two to three times more. They just have larger volume, that's the problem for EV's.
Sodium is extracted from salt (NaCl) with chlorine gas as a by-product. What are you going to do with all the chlorine gas you get???
Sodium ion battery not using sodium metal, and no chlorine but using cathode and electeolyte that consist of mostly Na element.
The claim that LiFePO4 batteries don't burn is false. They just don't burn as _aggressively_ as lithium ion batteries because they don't produce their own O2 during combustion.
When they burn, it stops relatively quickly, so the fire hazard is very low.
Do you have a comparison between lead acid sealed gel batteries compared to lithium ion
I do have a comparison between lead acid and lifepo4 batteries on my channel.
Like go to heaven !!!!!
The letters in graphs is too small.
Sodium batteries are perfect form home energy storage but at current price are completely nonsense
NA+ CAN Explode, but without fire.
Where can you buy 280Ah LFP cells for $70?
Alibaba
@@cleversolarpower Shipping is expensive
Yikes! Sodium ion (Na+) hits 12V (multiply the cell voltage X4 to get the voltage for a 12V nominal battery of 4 cells in series) around 35% discharge (65% SOC). Some devices aren't going to operate very well below 12V, so that means the useful capacity of Na+ would only be 35% of its stated capacity! It is unclear from the chart what discharge rate the curve represents. If that is at 1C, then that's bad enough. But if that is at 0.2C, the voltage sag would likely be worse, and Na+ could be virtually useless for typical 12V applications. For example, many inverters will have reduced output with a source below 12V, and a lot will cut off at 11V.
It just gets worse from there. The curve presented shows 11V at 50%, and only 10V at around 75% discharged (25% SOC).
Meanwhile, a LiFePO4 battery (LFP) only drops to 12V once it has discharged 98% of its capacity (2% SOC)--at a full 1C discharge rate! LFP batteries will be WAY better for applications like running an inverter or any appliance that is sensitive to voltages lower than 12V.
On the bright side, for 48V applications, one could add a 17th cell in series and, kick up the nominal voltage to 52.7, and get a little more life, but that steady voltage curve means that the 100%SOC voltage would be a shocking (quite literally) 65.45V. Anything above 50V is generally considered dangerous to humans.
That voltage curve is the most disappointing thing I have seen regarding Na+ batteries. I don't think they would actually work for any standard application. They will be relegated to extremely large applications like electric vehicles with highly customized controllers that can handle these extreme voltage variations.
Even though that's of little use for most of my applications, bulk Na+ adoption by EVs might still relieve some of the pressure on Lithium so that prices for Li-ion and LiFePO4 batteries could drop dramatically.
Great comment, the low voltage is a problem if we want to cycle like lifepo4. However, this would be easily offset by a decrease in cost in the future. i'm not sure, but i would expect the test to be done at 1C discharge. We have to see what the future holds.
@@cleversolarpower Like you said in the video, IF prices come down (but they need to come down by a factor of 3x or 4x to even be comparable to LFP) then it could make sense for fixed applications. But for the same amount of energy storage and delivery over the life of the batteries, the batteries will weigh more, take up more space, and have a somewhat troublesomely-low voltage curve compared to LFP. If they can solve the energy density and cost problems, I hope Na+ will eventually be an acceptable solution for EVs, which are putting extreme pressure on the global lithium market right now. Keep in mind that LFP prices have dropped by about 80% in the last 4 years. So, even as Na+ prices fall over the next few years, LFP battery prices may also fall, keeping it hard for Na+ to be economically viable. This is not an unlikely scenario as companies like Tesla are currently developing their own lithium mining and processing operations here in the U.S. which should ease the pressure and prices on the world market for lithium.
My issue is finding an inverter with sufficient input range. A 48v (100% SoC) pack could go as low as 24v at 10% SoC.
Who makes an inverter that can work with that range? 24v-48v input. I haven't found one yet.
Good point. These are the input voltages of victron inverters: 9.3-17V 18.6-34V 37.2-68V 9.3V=2.32V/cell which is 15% capacity left. I would say this is do-able.
No plateau like alkaline batteries vs lithium ion batteries.😮
There's a little sleight of hand in the comparison chart. That 0.5C for cycles means you need twice as many batteries for the same available energy as with LiFePO4 batteries. So, in reality, the functionally energy density of Na+ is not 155W/kg, but 77.5W/kg. Contrast that with 180W/kg for LiFePO4. Also, the cost is $180 per comparable Amp-hours, contrasted with $70 for LiFePO4. More simply, the cost per available amp-hour for a 12V nominal battery is going to be about $0.30/Ah for LiFePO4 vs. $0.82/Ah for Na+. That means that for now, Na+ is 2.7 times more expensive than LiFePO4.
0.5C doesn't mean that it has less energy density. It means that it can charge at a lower current rating. But it can still 'hold' 155Wh/kg.
@@cleversolarpower O.5C actually applies to a lot of things. It can apply to the charge or discharge rate, sure. But the one I mentioned is "0.5C for cycles" if you read my comment carefully. See your video at 1:30 where you refer to that. The rating of 4000 cycle life for Na+ is for only 0.5C depth of discharge. That means that you only get 4000 cycles if you only use the battery from 100% to 50% SOC for each cycle. Usually, that means, as in the case of lead-acid batteries, that discharging below 50% SOC is hard on the batteries and that if you cycled from 100% to 0% per cycle, you would get way fewer than half the rated cycles due to battery damage. In this case for Na+, the reason for the limitation of 0.5C for 4000 cycle life of the battery is not clear, so it might be for that reason. Or it could be that they recognize that the battery voltage is likely too low below 50% SOC to be generally useful. But at best case, I would suspect that cycle life for 100% depth of discharge would be 2000 cycles, but I suspect it would be more like 200 cycles based on other info I have seen about the cycle life of Na+ batteries. Bottom line is that over the life of the battery, you will get only half the energy output from these Na+ Cells as you would get from the LFP cells you compare them to in this video. That is a significant factor in true cost of a battery over its lifetime.
@@daveduncan2748 0.5C refers to the SPEED of charging or discharging. The DEPTH of discharge is still 100%.
A 220Ah cell can be discharged with up to 110 Amps from 100% to 0% and then charged from 0% to 100% with 110 Amps. This would take a total of 4 hours and counts as one full cycle out of the 4000 cycles available as per manufacturer.
The price on Taobao is now 1/3
I recently got a quote for 3.2V 280Ah LiFePO4 $84.
4:05 collect solar power energy ,,,
Oh! It's not for hot countries like India and Pakistan where heat crosses 48 degree Celsius during the summer
If you put it in a temperature controlled room (AC), then its not a problem.
Sodium batteries should cost 1/8 that of lithium but so far they are pricing like they are lithium, get the manufacturing up & prices down, once they become the low cost alternative Sodium will own the battery market.
Why do you think 1/8 the price? I estimate a little more than half the price.
@@cleversolarpower Sodium carbonate costs approximately $290 per metric ton. Lithium carbonate (99.5% battery grade), on the other hand, commands a significantly higher price of approximately $35,000 per metric ton. Materials cost are far cheaper but manufacturing methods/cost are similar. They don't have manufacturing built in scale yet which should lower cost.
The Electrolyte still high cost
I would be very happy if you did those tests yourself. Of course i left a sub and a like to show my support :)
Nice
Tantalite has not stood still.
Sir, you have earned thumbs 👍 👌
Thanks for liking!
Can not charge when over 45 degree? We are so fucked🤣
😬
@@cleversolarpower But i'm not totally out here. These are the early steps for Na as electron donor. This is what Li-Ion was 20 years ago. I guess we meet again in 10 years and have an actual replacement for Lithium in car batteries. But at the moment, these are devastating news.
REGARDING SAFETY,LITHIHM HAS BEEN SHOWN TO BLOWS UP IN PHONES AND AUTO MOBILES.
You are talking about lithium ion. This is lifepo4.
Lifepo4 is better. .
Sodium cells are too heavy
Yes, for cars. But for home storage it's ok.
More expensive 😂
🎉
Just added a few things to data sheets, lack of sources, video.
Not good.
90 vs 75. Yeah no. if it is 35 then It will be reasonable. Pointless to buy an inferior product higher price. I will wait a decade to see if china man can work miracles again.
Good choice 😉
Still shitty those sodium cells.... They are far from lifepo4 specs.
I wouldn't say so. These are the first commercially available cells and theirs specs are very good. Which specs do you want to see improvement on?
the cells here cost more than quadruple ....
So too may shitty stats and to few benefits for ca. 30% more expensive price... Sorry mann but That is crap if the would have cost a 1/4 of the LIFEPO4 then it would have been a considerable alternative. But this crap battery can be frankly ignored
Patience my man 😄
The wide working voltage range of sodium batteries are not favourable, i like that LiFePo4 has a dead flat discharge curve between 90 and 10% SOC, and prices have come down quite a bit since the old thundersky/calb batteries from 10 years ago, also in energy density has improved tremendously.
Exactly, the voltage curve is so crappy I don't see how it can work except in specialized equipment. It will certainly not works with any inverter I have.
Fr voltage range is worse than lead acid. A lead acid cell from full charge rest voltage to completely dead is like half a volt or less
@@thatyoutubeguy7583 Pb is 2.3 to 1.65 (0.65) while LFP is 3.2 to 3.125 (0.08). Yes, you can pull a LFP battery much lower, but from my tests, there's about 15min (@25A) left in the pack at 3.125v, and about 60s from 3.1 to 2.5/2.8. The only real issue I see with Na is the extremely high charge voltage. For a cell that settles at 3.1v, 3.95v is insanely high (read: wasteful, it's just generates heat) It's going to take special chargers to handle these things. (much like NiMH, where something has to externally keep track of charge.)
We received the same specification a few days ago. When I was looking on the SOC OCV chart for the first time, I was terrified since you either need to have a wide inverter input or you can't use the whole capacity. What I'm missing even more is data about Round Trip Efficiency (often 3 x times - full charge - discharge cycle) !! My expertise with LFP/C is that they can reach RTE of 95-96 % (Benergy, EVE, 50 Ah). The voltage gap between charge and discharge with sodium ion doesn't seem promising in this regard. Do you have data?? Also, what is about calendaric aging ? Data is out there for LFP/C. Last but not least - concerning costs, we see market prices in January 2024 for 280 Ah cells from Hithium and REPT for 56/54 €/pcs without transport - resulting in approx 60 USD/kWh. I agree that Na-ion will keep the cost pressure on LFP high. By the way - what does the voltage/SOC graph look like @ low temperatures?
Good point. I don't have data about the round trip efficiency. Neither do I have information about the voltage graph at low temps. I will ask suppliers about these. I was lucky to receive an English datasheet, all the others were in Chinese.
@@cleversolarpower
ah yes, there is no data about the "round trip efficiency" because it probably is most likely very bad. also there is no information how long they keep the charge.
@@ursodermatt8809 Sounds like content or my upcoming video about sodium-ion.
and what is also intereseting is the continous C rating.
I saw a testgraph from TÜV which shows that the output power is dependent on SOC, like if you have a 200Ah Cell it can output 200A but when the SOC is at 50% it outputs only 50% like 100A, could you ask this also, please ?
@@cleversolarpower
thanks, i appreciate it
Could you do a similar comparison between Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries and ZnBr batteries (both the Redflow and Gelion). No one suggests that these will be useful for mobile applications but look at them for static applications. For home use, the most important factors for me are 1)longevity, 2) price and 3) hands off operation.
The most prominent advantage would be that Sodium has an advantage in Cold weather, and could be appealing to those who live in cold climates. Other than that it I prefer LiFePO4 Batteries.
And Na+ deliver more power. But i will keep my LFP. They are easier to work with.
Yes, another point is that it doesn't use lithium. So it's more sustainable long term. But if you already have lithium batteries or plan to do so in the next year, then LiFePO4 is still the best choice.
@@cleversolarpower "So it's more sustainable long term."
1. What is the difference of sustainability in the short and long term.
2: Na+ cells use very expensive electrolytes which counter your argument - today.
3: Na+ cells - at least the current ones - use hard carbon for whcih you need a great amount of energy to produce, they are not naturallay available. Some cell developments try to use brown coal but those are not available - today.
Hard carbon just activated carbonized coconut shell but have N doped addition, its not energy intensive to produce @@wolfgangpreier9160
Other than potential future price due to the abundance of sodium....the cold weather performance seems to be it's only advantage.
They ar explosif if you put a nail in it, not ( yet ) good for cars
*You can't BUY a Sodium Ion Battery so WHAT IS THE POINT???*
You can buy sodium cells, and since this is a diy channel I provide information about diy batteries as well 🙂.
@@cleversolarpower *I can't buy Na-Ion on Amazon or Ebay. If I do a google search for them I end up at Ali-Express every time. Maybe you can provide a link to a cheap Sodium battery store that is local and discounted???*
Where is a comparison of voltage, current, SOC Ah and SOC % ENERGY curves with suitable inverter/charger / MPPT ? This is only reading from pdfs which is not true. Reality is always different from pdfs specs.
That maximum charging temperature of 113F for Na-Ion is going to be a big problem in hot weather. That's not the outdoor air temperature. That's the max temperature allowed inside the batteries. Batteries generate a lot of internal heat when being used and when being charged. When you're driving a car in 99F weather the batteries get much hotter than that. So if you pull up to a DC Fast Charger you might have to wait for it to cool down. Also the car will restrict its charge rate to protect the battery. Fast Charging generates a LOT of heat.
I certainly wouldn't use these Na-Ion batteries in a car. I know some companies are planning to use Na-Ion in cars, but they'll have to be better than these.
The Voltage Range from the SOC Batterys are bad, cheap measuring equipment is capabile of reading in mV but Inverter with wide voltage Range are less efficient.
Also with more cells the output Power decreas signifficant.
Example: LifePo4 under load Full 3.3V Empty 2.9V Diff = 0,4V 10Cells = 4V so from 33V@100A=3300W to 29V@100A=2900W means 12% Power loss
Example: SOC under load Full 3.45V Empty 2.25V Diff = 1,2V 10Cells = 12V so from 34,5V@100A=3450W to 22,5V@100A=2250W means 34% Power loss
Need a few more years real world testing and manufacturing refinement/pricing reduction, about another 5 years, then may make the swap (see if people really do get 4000 cycles out of them real world!). Looks promising, but for now will stick with tried and very tested LifePo4... Other problem is charge temperature, as batteries get hot after a discharge, and an upper charge temp of 45c is a limit for some applications, especially where cells are packed together in the real world, 45c is not very hot at all (my LifePo4 can get that hot and more in summer which would mean if they were Na+ you couldn't charge them in the day on a solar array!).
What is you ambient temperature in summer? 45°C is quite a lot for solar charging/discharging. Have you sized your battery correctly (C-rate)?
@@cleversolarpowerMany places on earth have 35c on a hot day like Germany where I life, in a building with out aircondition like a garage even more, than add some heat from the charging and you are above spec.
Not even at half the price are they comparable to the LiFePO4. They still need to prove the robustness; and at the same cycle of the LiFePO4 the certainly lack they promise.
If they are half the price it would be worth it for sure. For solar system, the charging c-rate (0.5C) is never going to be that high. The LiFePO4 280Ah battery has 6,000 cycles, but the smaller one 230Ah has 4,000, just like the sodium battery. So the cycle life is not a real problem in my opinion.
There is no Best! Each battery has give and take aways. Want to be emoliated choose Lithium Ion.
So for now the only advantages is environment, since sodium easier to extract than lithium
Nice to see a side by side comparison table. It makes everything so much clearer.
Now compare to Lithium Titanate Oxide...
A bit disappointed in the statement that the safety aspects between LiFePo and Sodium batts are the "same", as to me this indicates the sodiums will have the same shipping restrictions. I hope not. I live off the road system only approachable by jet or barge and shipping charges for the lithium batteries cost as much or more than the cells, using either ship method. Most places in the U.S. will not even ship here. I hope the shipping standard gets an early review..
I've read online that sodium ion can be shipped at 0V or 0% soc. However, the data-sheet didn't mention it. We will have to see of shipping companies pick this up and change their precautions about shipping these batteries.
LiFePO batteries are a lot safer than regular Li batteries. I imagine a NaFePO battery would be even safer.
The 1.5V to 3.95V voltage range is a let down.
So。。。。。。。。。 the
still good enough to me
None are available for sale sale so who cares.
I bought some, so they are.
How much cheaper do you think sodium ion could get than lithium? Is the lithium a major expense of a battery and is sodium radically cheaper? Great video. Thx.
We are not there yet. But if production of sodium increases it can be.
VW e-golf battery 50 times better
Yes please do the tests your self
Just Don't get them wet
Still happy with my EVE flatliners being safe too. These will last at least 10-15 yrs. By then, Solid State Batteries will be the standard I guess.
Yes indeed, sodium-ion is not on point yet. Keep using your lifepo4 cells :)
1. Lithium-ion batteries can enter an uncontrollable, self-heating state. This can result in the release of gas, cause fire and possible explosion.
2. The major issue with lithium-ion batteries overheating is a phenomenon known as thermal runaway. In this process, the excessive heat promotes the chemical reaction that makes the battery work, thus creating even more heat and ever more chemical reactions in a disastrous spiral.
3. Lithium-ion batteries can explode or catch fire due to a phenomenon called thermal runaway. Thermal runaway is a chain reaction that occurs when the battery experiences a rapid increase in temperature, leading to the release of energy and potentially causing a catastrophic failure.
Sodium-ion batteries have none of these problems... Google, results in .45 seconds.
Lithium iron phosphate is different from lithium ion.
please do these tests !!!! perfect video
Do the tests please
I wonder if explosion and fire actually occur when overcharging.
Please make a video.
BYD blade battery test
The voltage range possibly means series wiring in practice, and possibly boost conversion otherwise quite a bit of current needed below 3v for power apps. Could be useful for EVs sold in colder climates and niche applications.
And damn speech to text,
anyone notice that it's not
Lithium "Iron", but it's
Lithium "Ion".
This video is about lithium iron phosphate. Lifepo4
Higher Voltage is also nice for a 16s energy storage system. less current (some did already built 18s before). Also with the better temperature range for charging, it can easily be placed in the garage, where lifepo had to be placed on heating pads to be charged on sunny but ice cold winter days.
My garage does not get cold. I am perfectly happy with LFP.
Indeed, I see sodium as a good fit for off-grid cabins/vans or in your situation where garages can get cold.
If you look at Na-ion's voltage-SoC curves, Na-ion's is almost linear with SoC from 2.6V to 3.6V vs mostly flat about 3.2V from 20% through 80% for LFP. Na-ion will require higher current through the bottom 60% of SoC when using the same cell count and loads able to cope with ~800mV more peak-to-peak SoC swing per cell.
Hmm, there are a lot of disadvantages here. That SoC curve is crazy. I'll be sticking with LiFePo4 for my home battery backup. I can see this being useful if you live in very cold areas, but it'll take some extra considerations when designing a system with Sodium Ion, like larger gauge wires than you'd expect.
Also weight. 100 Ah LifePo4 packs are already around 100 pounds when in a rack mount case, which is heavy enough. Sodium Ion will be even heavier.
Good comment. I agree.
Iron & Phosphate are wildly available & aren't scarce. Arguably Lithium becomes more abundant by the day as well. Currently lithium is slightly less abundant but St Georges Eco Mining proves its 100% recyclable with no waste so into 2030 its availability will skyrocket. They're both viable but your comparison is misleading.
Yes, there are recycling plants who can separate all the elements from lithium batteries. But not all the batteries are recycled that way.
Not 100% - keep in mind just because you can cycle and we do find more Li, Iron, or Phosphate - there is still always going to be a supply choke because the demand is too high. Thus we can't really make more battery production unless we can get access to more supply. Na doesnt have this issue at all as the supply and mining of it is already out paces that demand and thus more supply can be turn into production for demand. Along with the fact you are still price limited by Li OR Iron OR Phosphate where you only have to deal with Na instead or maybe one other element demanding on make up later.
You mention that sodium ion batteries need less *rare earth* materials.
What *rare earth* materials are you thinking of?
Scarce materials is a better word.
Do you have a ZZ9000 (sp?) card, you should pair the two in your A2000 next. 😁
I don't know what you are talking about 🤔