I don’t think you can take the output of any LLM too seriously when you’re talking about a new technology for which there is very little training information on the Internet. LLM‘s are great at generating text, they are less good at generating, correct answers.
true, the AI didn't know that Sodium ion battery is definitively safer than Lifepo4, it has been tested in paper titled "Sodium-ion Battery Testing" -Rachel Carter, et al.
What's great is that they cite their sources, so you can check if it's on to something or just spewing a load of BS. On niche topics like this, I've found they tend to take a truth and stretch it to fit whatever bias might be present within the prompt.
@@kevinroberts781AI is as intelligent as the milions of human answers it compared, emagine how clever one will be if you can compare milions of answers to a problem in a split second. So to my mind AI still has a dependance on human interaction, it will change in the future. But for now a human are still superior, AI cannot exist without human input for now.
The density looks to be about 2/3 of LifePO4 (10Ah verses 15AH in the 13xxx cells). The power for weight is a bit better but I think the big thing is the price. For home storage and EVs Sodium Ion is meant to get down to about 1/3 the price of LifePO4 and 1/4-1/5 the price of Li-ion. That is very compelling from a home storage point of view where capacity is substantially cheaper once we have inverters that can utilise the wide voltage range. I think it has the potential to become the battery that people want for home storage systems but the price has to meet the marketing and we are going to need inverters designed to utilise the massive voltage range these batteries produce alongside some tuned BMS for them as well. Its got potential but none of the pieces are there yet.
Not to mention if these batteries don't spontaneously combust, then the insurance aspect of having them in your house would be a lot more favorable. That said, asking an AI about it is about the dumbest thing I've seen all month, and I work in IT. I'm not sure I'll be watching much more from this channel.
@@kevinroberts781 - Maybe research economies of scale? Na-ion batteries, once they are being produced at the same scale as LiFePO4, will cost about 1/3 as much. This reduction in cost, and the decreased reliance on rare earth minerals, especially cobalt, is why sodium batteries WILL become quite popular for a variety of applications. You proved it, yourself, by stating the single motivating concern for most consumers - PRICE. When we get to the point where LiFePO4 is 50 to 65% more expensive than sodium, the choice will be very easy, and you'll be just as convinced nothing will ever replace sodium.
I think they will take over, personally I would just keep voltage within the usable range for inverter so you would get about 75-80 percent usable capacity but they will be 1/3 the price. It will soon be an even exchange for density to cost 1/3 the price and 1 1/3 the size/weight of usable energy. No different equipment just program to usable range for your equipment. If I can have a 10 kwh usable sodium ion the size of a water heater for $500 I'm all in
This is like testing the first version of anything and giving your verdict too early. There's still research on sodium batteries. It's too early to conclude. Love your videos, but I think you are wrong on sodium. Also, chatgpt makes things up every time.
Voltag drops constantly, that means current has to rise constantly to keep the same level of power output. So you need more capacity, thicker wires and more powerfull electronics, that can handle the voltage drop and increased current. That's why sodium is not the future.
@@meilyn22 physics and chemistry won't change a lot on this specific cells. And i was talking about this cell. But also other saltwater battery types have simular problems.
@@xponen no need to tell me, how an inverter works... You didn't get the point. When the voltage drops, the current has to increase to deliver the same power output. Example: A 24V inverter produces 2,4kW with 100A. When the input drops to 12V, 200A are needed. So with sodium batteries you need a 200A inverter instead of a 100A inverter with liefpo and you need twice the crossection for the wiring. Many simple inverters for RV or off grid cabins have a small voltage window, they shut down at 20V in this example.
Great video, but I think you’re missing the point. Sodium is obviously not intended to replace lithium. However, it is just barely reaching scale manufacturing, and it’s lack of lithium will allow its price to drop. We will see applications of sodium in grid storage and other uses using equipment designed to handle its characteristics. Will it replace lithium in 12 V home systems? Not soon. Does it have a bright future? Absolutely.
Lithium is not a problem, rather mass manufacturing of the infrastructure is along with more than 1 country refining it. Insane voltage drop and poor cycle life is the problem with Sodium batteries. No one will put up with low cycle life.
Interesting. In another space a Technician from Schneider (huge multinational Company)came into the discussion and pointed out that they tried extensively to get Sodium batteries to work in a household storage environment and just couldn't make it work. The main issue was that they simply could not cope with instant sudden load changes like an aircondition coming on. So for the time being, they gave up on that idea of intergrading Sodium batteries in their storage solutions. We have 40KWh in LFP batteries at a cost of AUS $35,000,-. This includes the cabinet but not the special Inverters (which you need anyway). When our system was reasonable small, we had started with two (they are 4KWh each)..then purchased another one a year later and added another another year later after that. We then increased our system multi fold to 10 units. The older batteries were used in a conservative matter ...discharge to maximum of 40% only. With the new ones, they are showing 0% degradation. The current ones are setup to 35% SOC, so maximum discharge of 65% before either the Grid comes in or the Generator kicks in (in case of Grid loss). The lowest we have been was either 42% or 48% SOC (can't remember) and this was just a day after install, as they didn't have a chance to be fully charged via Solar yet.
When your first video about the sodium batteries hit and I saw the voltage range, already then my thought was, hardware would need to be re-designed around the use of the sodium technology, one would otherwise not be able to utilise the full energy capacity of said battery, but, this is indeed another stepping stone, so, we wait and see how it all develops ... Thank you Andy for all your hard work and information given..
Knowing how much the battery chemistry price actually contributes to the price of the finished cells is key to knowing the future of sodium cells. I'd be willing to bet that the cell chemistry raw material costs are relatively insignificant compared to the manufacturing cost at the cell sizes we are using.
My guess is that these will be marketed as more environmentally friendly as they will be called salt batteries for the masses aimed at the storage market for large community batteries and house batteries. Also a competitor to flow batteries. Price would need to plummet to get the uptake.
Smokin hot presentation baby! Nickel is expensive. Lithium is expensive. Supply and demand of any element predicates cost. As an element becomes popular any user needs to predict price gouging of that element. Already, you can not source sufficient nickel or lithium at a fair price. Here's the deal, for an off grid enthusiast: 1) IBC tote or Drum ( cost) 1) Aluminum foil to cover bottom ( cost + availability) 1) Graphite sheet per Cell ( plentiful+ cheap) 1) Copper foil top conductor. 1) bag sodium phosphate. ( Cheap - safe- electrolyte) For the laymen this will make more sense soon as people build. Traditionally, our only viable option was nickel Iron Phosphate which requires long charge times exceeding solar pv days, low energy density, and very heavy and expensive and difficult because the nickel plates are detailed. ✌🏻👶🏻🚬
ich denke auch das es für Grid Storage eine sehr gute Alternative sein wird. Außerdem kann es Blei Batterie in kleinen Fahrzeugen wie Motorroller oder Rickschas ersetzen. Immerhin doppelte Kapazität bei gleichem Gewicht. Ich denke also in Asien wird das massiv helfen bei short range Fahrzeugen.
@@LittleSpotungeeignet für Baumaschinen, nicht wegen dem Gewicht, sondern weil du viel zu viel Volumen brauchst. Und grad Gabelstapler brauchen das Gewicht, du kannst sie aber nicht einfach größer bauen. Als Ersatz für Starterbatterien sind sie auch ungeeignet, weil sie Spannung konstant abfällt.
The reason for formatting charge-discharge cycles is that the chemicals within the cell are such that it promote long shelf life before it is put into use. The formatting allow maturing of the chemical. Formatting can be using it at light duty for the first couple of cycles instead of specific formatting out of the system.
Andy, I have been busy moving across the country why "battery life" has been on the backburner for many months. So, I have a fresh "reacquaintance" with OGG and it is very inspiring and good learning, particularly sodium batteries which I have just not gotten engaged in. Using AI was stroke of genius too, makes good discussion. As for formation/initial charging I have some experience with this. Formation is the bottleneck of battery production as you cant cut corners, it takes the time it takes according to the parameters of the cell as well as it is a consumer of energy, even if most batteryplants recycle energy as you do. So, if a manufacturer can, they will produce the least required effort in formation. This is akin to doing a run-in with you new ICE car, let the consumer do the final and important manufacturing step.
I actually get asked frequently about Sodium batteries (or other Lithium Alternatives) from German customers...so there might be a market for Energy Storrage...especially, if price comes down to LFP-levels. Once affordable, we could actually use the 16S JK-Inverter BMS and use at lease 70% of the usable capaicty with a MultiPlus-II.
Hello Andy, I like your tests. I said correctly that there is not much published about salty batteries. That is why IA can also not answer all of your questions. Remember IA does not do tests like youndo. It can only read and summarize what is published ( even if the published data might not be true). So please keep testing, the world needs to see this. There is so much solar potential in developing countries, but the battery is too expensive for this target group.
I like your videos a lot. And i also can follow your conclusion. I learned recently, that there is again not just one sodium ion technology. A variety of anode/cathode materials will show up.
For grid storage and home storage, energy density is not real important, price is a far more concern, and with safety aspect a major concern, I do see these replacing Lithium in lots of situations, and if the energy density reaches parity, then vehicles may be forced to use them, for safety reasons and for material availability, I would like to see some real torture tests done on these batteries, also, I wonder if a hybrid battery using Sodium Ion and a cache of LF would be the future for Vehicle's?
It will depend on price for me. LFPs are getting cheaper than good lead acids. Perhaps sodium ion batteries could be assembled in affordable high capacity packs for home systems, like 50k watt hours, to compete with flow batteries.
Hey Andy, this may throw a spanner in the works... I got 200Ah out of "220Ah" Sodium cells when charged to 4.0v. But I just tried charging them to 4.3v (which is mentioned on various places online as being the maximum) and they then produced about 265Ah. Maybe you can re-open the Sodium files and delve deeper. ;) However, note that 3 of the 4 ZKE testers dies while doing this test. Shortly after the discharge (down to 1.5v) to charge transition, it seems to have stopped. Not nice smells coming from them, so be wary about killing test equipment.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Some data online suggests 4.3v is fine. But I really don't know at this stage. It certainly worked. As for the ZKE death, unsure yet, I still need to open them up.
Avoiding discharge of sodium batteries beyond 50% would be impractical (if considering as a replacement to lifepo4). It sounds similar to guidance for lead acid batteries.
Thank you. Flow batteries never took off in any market. Too expensive, too much maintenance, too large and heavy. Sodium may replace them rather sooner than later...
Allow me to share another experience with battery manufacturers. This time the needed help in recycling. The way to extract and separate the valueable materials is by chemical separation, in order to do this the cells need to be crushed/fragmented...!!!. So, hence they cant have significant charge left. For NMC/NCA this was deemed to be 2,0V. My client already had a method they considered superior, immersion in a conductive fluid. While it worked in the lab (so-so really) we said that industrialzing this would be major headache and really costly. Our recommendation was an automated, adaptive electrical discharge. But no, they wanted the chemical process. So we designed this whila also shaking our heads in disbelief. After selecting a less critical engineering firm, they came back and asked us to suggest electrical method...As you have noted, there is a chemically related rebounce after short circuit, but it is also time/temp related. After a while the cell is dead for all intents and purposes. Perhaps you can "frankenstein" it by some cycling and so on? Funny is the AI is vague and you spotted it right away. In part this relares to the mysterious electrochemical life in a cell, its is not only the main and desired chemical, reverrsible reactions going on but a also smaller side reactions. Electrochemists rarely have a full understanding what they are and its consequences....Your work and discoveries are now reaching right into these domains, very impressive. I have a mentor, a german physicist I would like to tie you up with. Message me privately if you want this.
I think what people sometimes miss is that chemical elements are political. Choices are made for reasons of war, supply, ownership and pollutants. This is what influences the zeitgeist of battery development.
Andy, you should have asked the AI if any of its information gathering sources included 'The Off-Grid Garage'? In the future, if it starts to begin its replies with "well...according to Andy" we will know the real truth! Well after this sodium mini series we sort of do haha!
The cycle life, price and availability are the determiners. Lead acid was the standard and they are now considered sub-standard. The price makes the different discharge curves rather insignificant. So long as the quantity of sodium ion batteries can be secured at a lower price, the charge rate becomes unimportant. The BMS must be tailored to the battery.
Comparing third or forth generation of lithium batteries to first generation sodium batteries. Both technologies have there place but take into account cost of mining raw materials and availability.
i think salt batteries will be popular because they will be less than half the price of LFP for the capacity. It has a fraction of the manuf costs which leads to higher margins, more competition and discounted prices.
Just Do deep cycles with Salty1 alle the time, we will See, if it does any harm....., keep Salty2 at 0 V for one week an recharge it, we will also See 😅. THANKS, Andy
My guess is that they will take over the market of grid storage (where energy density is less of a problem). With scaling of the production, the prices will go down. And it uses Sodium which is much more abundant than Lithium.
I noticed improved capacity on 100% of my 32650 that i tested if i did formation cycles. Each cycled added less, 3 cycles were a trade-off between my patience and possible gains. Gains were around 5-10% mostly close to 7ish.
I like that you've done this video Andy. I was so excited for these batteries.......that was until I got my hands on a data sheet last year. I didn't even bother getting any to test.
Here's something a little bit more challenging: how can we make a switch that activates a high current connection (like 100A) when the voltage of a battery drops under a given value (like 48V) ? This is for connecting an emergency battery when a main battery is on low voltage.
It would be wasteful to keep an emergency battery charged all the time just for the rare occasion of the main battery being low. It would be better to integrate the spare battery into the system, so the overall capacity is already larger and an undervoltage situation does not even occur before they are getting charged again.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Emergency one is classic lead, it would not fully charge and drain from the pack to sustain itself. Main will be LFP-NMC hybrid anyway, quite the experiment but it should end up in a "best of both words" thing. Plus I can remote manage the lead battery charger and only activate it when needed. It will not drain anything when I don't want it to.
Andy, I really enjoy watching your videos. The enthusiasm with which you approach these experiments is infectious in the best possible way! :) With that said, I think you are choosing to ignore the biggest obvious reason why sodium ion batteries will eventually become even more common and dominant in the battery market than LiFePO4 is, right now..cost! As production scales, and costs plummet due to the relatively cheap and easy to scale supply chain for Na, the relative value of these batteries will be far greater than anything else currently on the market. Since I respect your experience and vision on this topic, do you truly not see the cost of sodium batteries dropping much lower that LiFePO4, making them the best value for consumers?
No, I don't see prices coming down for the reason you mentioned. If there is no demand, the price will not come down and will stay above that of lithium. Even if we would see a price parity and an increase in market share of sodium, it would free up more lithium production capacities and their price would come down as well (that's what we see right now due to the massive increase of production lines).
@@OffGridGarageAustralia - You understand that BYD is already building sodium-ion batteries, at scale, for their EV's? Cost and demand are always interrelated, so if a company thinks they can offer a Na-ion battery at a lower adjusted cost than LFP, the demand will be created by that cost advantage. Another major advantage of Na-ion is that they use far less materials that could be influenced by geopolitical instability. I'm surprised you don't realize that the lower cost of materials will inevitably be leveraged to result in a lower overall cost of production. When that happens, the reign of LFP will be over.
I see sodium batteries exactly the same. Maybe we will see them in solar energy storage but till then the whole devices need to adapt to the high voltage range. Maybe in ten years 😉
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I discussed with Tom Bötticher some days ago. He is a chemist specialized on batteries. He said that only sodium batteries based on layered oxide have auch a high voltage window. Sodium batteries based on prusian white (preußisch weiß) would behave nearly the same as LiFePo4. I think they are just not in the market places like AliExpress i.e.
But it compares both Na-ion and LiFePO4 to Li-ion rather than to each other as you asked (I'm responding to the first question here.…) because I assume there's little literature for training data comparing the two. Edit: ah, you just said the same thing 😅 Edit 2: I'm pretty impressed by it suggesting a testing process for Na-ion batteries as it knows there isn't much data on the subject. I feel an off-grid garage project coming on!
Hi Andy, just two minutes to ask you a question: I have a 24V system, 8 REPT cells, and I just got another 16 EVEs. I have 2 options in mind: 1. go to 48V and keep the 24V as an emergency system (but how to integrate the two systems? 2. Divide the 16 cells into two 8-cell packs and put them in parallel with each other. Or do you have any other better ideas? You're the only one I trust on the web! Super! 😉
Sodium batteries are not suitable tfor 48V batteries, but for "HV" it could be the way. Most of the hybrid inverters have range of battery from 200V to 600V. But still you need a proper bms
Have you thought about using relays for Charge and Discharge Cut-off and connect with the different voltage of the technologies you have with all the chemistries and having all of them hooked up, But for example at 3.3 the lfp stops charging But li-ion keeps going til 3.7 and Cut-off and sodium keeps going til 4.xx values are off the top of my head, But same going Down so allowing each chemistry to absorb in the range They can
The current Sodium Gen1 is no match for LFP, but Gen2 will meet and quickly exceeds it. In Germany and Spain CATL is building new factories to deliver the demand on EV. The same process can be used to produce LFP and NA+ batteries. Country's don't want to be dependent on the price politics of Lithium. I think that Gen2 will relatively soon be available for us when Tesla and other car manufacturers demand them and hope then you want to test them also.
Yes Please LMFP would be great. There are also Manganese rich ternary batteries and NMx type. The battery industry is moving away from Cobalt and is replacing it with Manganese. The added voltage manganese gives LFP really puts LMFP at an advantage. Plus the higher voltage allows the ability to blend in NMC material to add additional benefits. The Manganese rich ternary or Lithium rich Manganese batteries will offer low metal costs with higher energy densities than LMFP with the same safety and better recycling. New battery factories will also beneifit because of the ease to produce ternary batteries compared to LFP.
Dala's EV Repair has a video of using a whole, unmodified Nissan Leaf battery to produce his "mains-a-like" power, by using a Froneius inverter, which accepts very high voltages on the DC side. The "Home" solar world has become used to (and saddled with) the concept of 12/24/48 volt battery packs. Especially with LiFePO4 batteries and lead acid having some useful common voltages inverter manufacturers have so far had little need to accommodate other battery charge and discharge voltages. IF the inverter makers can make wide input voltage units AND the battery makers can make sodium batteries in worthwhile quantity, and both can come together, THEN maybe the cheaper battery can seriously get into the solar power world at a reasonable price point.
I think the new sodium batteries are more of a prof of concept .... I see them being more used in low power applications .... stuff that NICd batteries were used .
I'm not sure if it has been brought up but couldn't you possibly build a battery bank so that when it gets low enough relays(or something) could change its wiring from like 2p4s to like 1p8s to double the voltage that way the inverter could continue to use that remaining 20-25%? This may be totally off the wall thinking but just an idea.
Sodium batteries will absolutely take over because if manufacturing economy of scale matches lithium, raw materials price will be a fraction. If it's 50% or less than LFP, it'll be adopted and be the only choice for stationary batteries. This will allow for supply increase in Lithium batteries for vehicles.
while looking forward of testing LMFP batteries to the end of this year, have you considered to test Lithium Titanate batteries? they're available on the market for a few years already and have superior advantages compared to LIFEPO4
With about 40% capacity available for a decent lifespan and lower power density, I'd imagine they'd need to be about a quarter of the price of LiFePO4 batteries for home or industrial storage apart from niche cold weather environments.
Yup and even your niche is not true as to charge EITHER of them let alone for capacity you need to insulate them and have a heater to maintain temps. If you have to maintain temps anyways, then LFP require less maintaining of temps as Sodium ion start losing capacity and C rate for charge/discharge quickly below 20C.
Will they take off and replace LFP batteries? I agree with you they might not, but at the end it all comes down to $$, if production scales up, prices drop, demand rises for e.g. inverter manufacturers to adapt their new equipment to these extended voltages. But who will tell...
Price is only one factor. It can be cheap as chips but if it is larger and has not the capacity as other batteries, it's not good for certain applications.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia good point, i guess to really get to low prices, it will require a wide application range and high energy density, amongst other parameters is key for that
good analysis and honest opinion and I think so too. Sodiums are not 100% safe either and thats the fact and as far as I know any moisture and sodium will ignite that`s what it does anyway if you throw a piece of sodium in water but I don`t think lithium element itself would just ignite or react in water that violently.
I highly doubt they use pure sodium in there, as much as they don't use pure Lithium in lithium ion batteries. We'll see how safe they really are. Li-Ion batteries are walking time bombs.
@@xxxblackvenomxxx well I am just saying what I know so if Lithium can go into thermal runaway I don't see any reason then why Sodium wouldn't be even easier to do the same 🤷♂️
Sodium should go mainstream since sodium is cheap and is everywhere. the annoying fact is that we don't have inverters to work with such batteries. Maybe special inverters will be needed or maybe they will fix this by a firmware update. Anyway...the sodium promises cheap batteries and maybe your capacity will expand to store the energy during the summer and have it ready for the winter. It is also an issue that solves this sodium batteries with the temperatures...you can charge and discharge them under - degrees and that solves a lot of problems. I can build my yard fence out of sodium batteries that are very cheap for winter storage energy like 10 times cheaper than LiFePO4.
thanks for doing some testing, there's far to little data out there to do any meaningful assessment of these cells so any extra testing helps. If the price of these come down as predicted i expect they will be fairly popular for storage where space isn't an issue. also if you just look at them as a better option the lead acid i don't think they are all that bad. if iv read your previous graphs right then running them at between 40-90% gives around 3.65 to 2.75 volts per cell which is 11- 14.6 V so the same as a LA battery and compatible with most inverters out there. granted your only using 50% of the cells capacity but that's the best you can do with LA anyway and these are definitely more tolerant of deeper discharges. only time and real life use will tell what the actual cycle life will be for the end user. if getting the most energy on a small space is the goal, then these have a long way to go, but they have to start somewhere.
- I'm curious to see if/how Na battery chemistry advances. Maybe it could be a bit more competitive to Li at some point. - I want to know what's happening with that plateau towards the end of the discharge curve. Is it going through a chemical change? Is it starting to use the passivation layer at that point? Very interesting. - If Na cells can be produced far cheaper than Li, that could be a game changer for large grid storage as it's somewhere between NMC and LFP for cycle life.
I think sodium for non stationary use will work if it is mixed with lithium cells so they can be filled up first while the sodium cells can slower charge…. Someone will probably try 100% sodium but hopefully it would be on a ‘budget’ EV where the customer will likely be more acceptable of a bad charging curve. I imagine pure sodium cars being charged to 50-60% for daily use instead of 85%.. to minimize charge time and for pack health
I commented in one of your first sodium battery videos about cost. Usable Amp hour vs cost. At that time I showed they were already 10% cheaper $ vs AH. Even when you use only 70% of the sodium battery. Not only did no one acknowledge what I said you are now continuing with your statement 'they are too expensive.... ect' Secondly.... the reason Lithium is on it way gone has nothing to do with the chemistry in the battery. It is the supply of Lithium that makes this a fore gone conclusion. May I point out that the chemistry you are so fond of did not exist 10 years ago. Thus claiming it will take decades for Sodium to significantly impact the market seem almost an over sight. This is much more a global supply issue of lithium than it is anything else. Take five minutes and investigate how many countries control 80% of the worlds supply and that is the end of the discussion. It is only a matter of time. Something must replace lithium even if it is something that is completely different from sodium. Given how abundant sodium is it is a great place to start.
There is more than enough Lithium existing. But you pointed it out correctly. Who owns it. Another question is the water consumption to wash out the Li. Recyling the Li in the future will be mandatory for every nation. Sodium is a good way for big storage to stabilize the grid .
17:15 This is my personal experience with A.I chatbot, is to not generalize the question too much, give it an more accurate example, tell it that you discharged it normally, then shorten its terminals, i think the bot take into consideration of shortening a battery at an unknown remaining capacity and energy. my guts feelings is if you ask general questions, you get those standard baby-safe paper-manual text nonsense. 18:42 much much better generated answer in my opinion.
I like the characteristics of LiFePo4 more, but I'm sure we'll see more of the sodium stuff. They can be produced way cheaper and this will push them into the market.
It is useful to remember that sodium batteries are quite new - and much like lithium batteries they will improve significantly over the next few years. I'm not convinced that your information is actually that informative here ...
Heya, so it is depanding of the use at your specifications situation what battery kind you can/have to use.do I hear totally at the end what the new battery types your gone test ?!?!?!
Who are you kidding? Did you see that voltage drop? It is far worse than Lead Acid and loses far more of its capacity due to cold than lead acid. LFP has better discharge when cold than Na-ion does and maintains its charge better to. Now charging is a bit different but not much.
No its not better for environment, that is just bunch of bull you made up out of thin air in your own "mind" with ZERO knowledge regarding mining/refining/ recycling. Just what do you actually think is in sodium ION batteries? Give you a hint: Sodium is the vast MINORITY of what is present. Just as Lithium ion batteries have very LITTLE lithium in it. And no, mining lithium is not toxic to environment and even if it is? Who cares? It doesn't matter. Said lithium was deposited there intially and there was zero life until the land healed itself, well it can do it again just fine and there are these things called humans which can help heal it after mining. @@markwright196
Hmm, colder climate use and exterior applications. With demerits formation I would not recommend compression. And install outside of An occupied area .
So we shouldn't regularly charge Na+ higher than 80% SOC, and we shouldn't regularly discharges below 40% SOC. That leaves 80%-40%=40% of the battery capacity available for regular use. Only 40%!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Who in the world thought sodium was Superior to lithium the main advantage it would have is the fact that it's more widely available people thinking it's Superior are just wrong it's the next best thing as far as on the periodic table than lithium but it's an inferior choice
sodium batteries materials are a lot cheaper and accesible than lithium ones, so they will inevitably become cheaper with time, as more players will come into play
Relying on AI is a bit iffy, but I guess the verbally stated conclusions are not incorrect. But they are *incomplete*. No mention whatsoever on the environment. I really rather have a salt product as post-service waste then lithium. Not to mention the large open holes that are lithium mines, whereas Natrium/Sodium we can just get everywhere.
Ty, I was curious. Sounds like a bit tricky to charge, maybe I specific charger is required or at least a custom config. Maybe by changing high end stop charge voltage below what 100% shows. If full V is 13.5, then set charge cutoff at 13.3? I would think both high and low charge limits should be set by the bms to a frickin safe number, jeez! I am curious about Sulphur batteries, but they are not yet available.
Hopefully Sodium batteries will go through an evolution curve like Lithium Ion to LiPo4 did ....matter of time and development ...but for now I think they have been rushed to market...
I have 6 LTOs here but don't see the point of using them in a solar environment. They are more for mobile applications where fast charging and discharging is key.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia If you were my neighbor you'd have to adopt me as you could never get rid of me:) I would be over there daily watching the projects- Thank you for sharing your experiences!
No useful reply from the AI on the shorting test. I suggest you test one of the cells yourself for the community. I guess a couple of weeks of shorting would do the trick,
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I don’t think you can take the output of any LLM too seriously when you’re talking about a new technology for which there is very little training information on the Internet. LLM‘s are great at generating text, they are less good at generating, correct answers.
If you have to train AI, It's not AI
true, the AI didn't know that Sodium ion battery is definitively safer than Lifepo4, it has been tested in paper titled "Sodium-ion Battery Testing" -Rachel Carter, et al.
What's great is that they cite their sources, so you can check if it's on to something or just spewing a load of BS. On niche topics like this, I've found they tend to take a truth and stretch it to fit whatever bias might be present within the prompt.
Yes, correct. That why it wants me to do the testing😁
@@kevinroberts781AI is as intelligent as the milions of human answers it compared, emagine how clever one will be if you can compare milions of answers to a problem in a split second. So to my mind AI still has a dependance on human interaction, it will change in the future. But for now a human are still superior, AI cannot exist without human input for now.
Take the LLM response on Sodium Ion batteries with... a grain of salt.
funny and clever...lol
I see what you did there--because salt is the solution. ;-)
Yes, absolutely. These are the 'best' answers we have atm.
Pun unintended 😂
@@jiaqingw I think the dramatic pause says otherwise. 😀
Sodium batteries are a cold climate solution
The density looks to be about 2/3 of LifePO4 (10Ah verses 15AH in the 13xxx cells). The power for weight is a bit better but I think the big thing is the price. For home storage and EVs Sodium Ion is meant to get down to about 1/3 the price of LifePO4 and 1/4-1/5 the price of Li-ion. That is very compelling from a home storage point of view where capacity is substantially cheaper once we have inverters that can utilise the wide voltage range.
I think it has the potential to become the battery that people want for home storage systems but the price has to meet the marketing and we are going to need inverters designed to utilise the massive voltage range these batteries produce alongside some tuned BMS for them as well. Its got potential but none of the pieces are there yet.
Not to mention if these batteries don't spontaneously combust, then the insurance aspect of having them in your house would be a lot more favorable. That said, asking an AI about it is about the dumbest thing I've seen all month, and I work in IT. I'm not sure I'll be watching much more from this channel.
The price is 4 times that of lithium. No thanks
@@big0bad0bradI see most people ditching insurance within 20 years. It's a scam just like AI
@@kevinroberts781 They have only been available to but for a month or so, FFS!
@@kevinroberts781 - Maybe research economies of scale? Na-ion batteries, once they are being produced at the same scale as LiFePO4, will cost about 1/3 as much. This reduction in cost, and the decreased reliance on rare earth minerals, especially cobalt, is why sodium batteries WILL become quite popular for a variety of applications. You proved it, yourself, by stating the single motivating concern for most consumers - PRICE. When we get to the point where LiFePO4 is 50 to 65% more expensive than sodium, the choice will be very easy, and you'll be just as convinced nothing will ever replace sodium.
I think they will take over, personally I would just keep voltage within the usable range for inverter so you would get about 75-80 percent usable capacity but they will be 1/3 the price. It will soon be an even exchange for density to cost 1/3 the price and 1 1/3 the size/weight of usable energy. No different equipment just program to usable range for your equipment. If I can have a 10 kwh usable sodium ion the size of a water heater for $500 I'm all in
Thanks for putting in the work testing these batteries and making videos about them.
Great work! Early days for Sodium and I am confident to buy batteries and put them to work, with a view towards better things to come.
This is like testing the first version of anything and giving your verdict too early. There's still research on sodium batteries. It's too early to conclude. Love your videos, but I think you are wrong on sodium. Also, chatgpt makes things up every time.
Voltag drops constantly, that means current has to rise constantly to keep the same level of power output. So you need more capacity, thicker wires and more powerfull electronics, that can handle the voltage drop and increased current. That's why sodium is not the future.
@stefankaufmann8257 Read your comment again and think to yourself whether it addressed anything I said, lol.
@@meilyn22 physics and chemistry won't change a lot on this specific cells. And i was talking about this cell. But also other saltwater battery types have simular problems.
@@stefankaufmann8257 voltage from this battery will always feed into a voltage up/down-regulator so the consumer will always see constant voltage.
@@xponen no need to tell me, how an inverter works... You didn't get the point.
When the voltage drops, the current has to increase to deliver the same power output.
Example: A 24V inverter produces 2,4kW with 100A. When the input drops to 12V, 200A are needed. So with sodium batteries you need a 200A inverter instead of a 100A inverter with liefpo and you need twice the crossection for the wiring.
Many simple inverters for RV or off grid cabins have a small voltage window, they shut down at 20V in this example.
Thanks for all this testing. It helps a lot of people around the world to understand this new batteries :)
Thank you and you are most welcome!
Great video, but I think you’re missing the point. Sodium is obviously not intended to replace lithium. However, it is just barely reaching scale manufacturing, and it’s lack of lithium will allow its price to drop. We will see applications of sodium in grid storage and other uses using equipment designed to handle its characteristics. Will it replace lithium in 12 V home systems? Not soon. Does it have a bright future? Absolutely.
Lithium is not a problem, rather mass manufacturing of the infrastructure is along with more than 1 country refining it. Insane voltage drop and poor cycle life is the problem with Sodium batteries. No one will put up with low cycle life.
Interesting. In another space a Technician from Schneider (huge multinational Company)came into the discussion and pointed out that they tried extensively to get Sodium batteries to work in a household storage environment and just couldn't make it work.
The main issue was that they simply could not cope with instant sudden load changes like an aircondition coming on. So for the time being, they gave up on that idea of intergrading Sodium batteries in their storage solutions.
We have 40KWh in LFP batteries at a cost of AUS $35,000,-. This includes the cabinet but not the special Inverters (which you need anyway).
When our system was reasonable small, we had started with two (they are 4KWh each)..then purchased another one a year later and added another another year later after that. We then increased our system multi fold to 10 units. The older batteries were used in a conservative matter ...discharge to maximum of 40% only. With the new ones, they are showing 0% degradation. The current ones are setup to 35% SOC, so maximum discharge of 65% before either the Grid comes in or the Generator kicks in (in case of Grid loss).
The lowest we have been was either 42% or 48% SOC (can't remember) and this was just a day after install, as they didn't have a chance to be fully charged via Solar yet.
When your first video about the sodium batteries hit and I saw the voltage range, already then my thought was, hardware would need to be re-designed around the use of the sodium technology, one would otherwise not be able to utilise the full energy capacity of said battery, but, this is indeed another stepping stone, so, we wait and see how it all develops ... Thank you Andy for all your hard work and information given..
Thanks a lot for sharing your thoughts.
Knowing how much the battery chemistry price actually contributes to the price of the finished cells is key to knowing the future of sodium cells. I'd be willing to bet that the cell chemistry raw material costs are relatively insignificant compared to the manufacturing cost at the cell sizes we are using.
My guess is that these will be marketed as more environmentally friendly as they will be called salt batteries for the masses aimed at the storage market for large community batteries and house batteries. Also a competitor to flow batteries. Price would need to plummet to get the uptake.
Price is certainly the main driver for any battery coming to market.
Smokin hot presentation baby!
Nickel is expensive. Lithium is expensive. Supply and demand of any element predicates cost. As an element becomes popular any user needs to predict price gouging of that element. Already, you can not source sufficient nickel or lithium at a fair price. Here's the deal, for an off grid enthusiast: 1) IBC tote or Drum ( cost) 1) Aluminum foil to cover bottom ( cost + availability) 1) Graphite sheet per Cell ( plentiful+ cheap) 1) Copper foil top conductor. 1) bag sodium phosphate. ( Cheap - safe- electrolyte) For the laymen this will make more sense soon as people build. Traditionally, our only viable option was nickel Iron Phosphate which requires long charge times exceeding solar pv days, low energy density, and very heavy and expensive and difficult because the nickel plates are detailed. ✌🏻👶🏻🚬
ich denke auch das es für Grid Storage eine sehr gute Alternative sein wird. Außerdem kann es Blei Batterie in kleinen Fahrzeugen wie Motorroller oder Rickschas ersetzen. Immerhin doppelte Kapazität bei gleichem Gewicht. Ich denke also in Asien wird das massiv helfen bei short range Fahrzeugen.
Gabelstapler, Baumaschinen. Da wo es nicht auf Gewicht ankommt.
I agree
@@LittleSpotungeeignet für Baumaschinen, nicht wegen dem Gewicht, sondern weil du viel zu viel Volumen brauchst. Und grad Gabelstapler brauchen das Gewicht, du kannst sie aber nicht einfach größer bauen.
Als Ersatz für Starterbatterien sind sie auch ungeeignet, weil sie Spannung konstant abfällt.
The reason for formatting charge-discharge cycles is that the chemicals within the cell are such that it promote long shelf life before it is put into use. The formatting allow maturing of the chemical. Formatting can be using it at light duty for the first couple of cycles instead of specific formatting out of the system.
Andy, I have been busy moving across the country why "battery life" has been on the backburner for many months. So, I have a fresh "reacquaintance" with OGG and it is very inspiring and good learning, particularly sodium batteries which I have just not gotten engaged in. Using AI was stroke of genius too, makes good discussion. As for formation/initial charging I have some experience with this. Formation is the bottleneck of battery production as you cant cut corners, it takes the time it takes according to the parameters of the cell as well as it is a consumer of energy, even if most batteryplants recycle energy as you do. So, if a manufacturer can, they will produce the least required effort in formation. This is akin to doing a run-in with you new ICE car, let the consumer do the final and important manufacturing step.
I actually get asked frequently about Sodium batteries (or other Lithium Alternatives) from German customers...so there might be a market for Energy Storrage...especially, if price comes down to LFP-levels. Once affordable, we could actually use the 16S JK-Inverter BMS and use at lease 70% of the usable capaicty with a MultiPlus-II.
Just show them the graph of the voltage drop along with its poor cycle life and you will not have any more questions regarding Sodium batteries...
@@w8stralhow many cycles they will last ? I have only found sodium ion on aliexpress and the seller told me 3000 cycles and 20% loss after that.
Hello Andy, I like your tests. I said correctly that there is not much published about salty batteries. That is why IA can also not answer all of your questions. Remember IA does not do tests like youndo. It can only read and summarize what is published ( even if the published data might not be true).
So please keep testing, the world needs to see this. There is so much solar potential in developing countries, but the battery is too expensive for this target group.
BYD SEAGULL has a Sodium option I think
It launched with an LFP battery from what I can find.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Wheelsboy channel The BYD Seagull 2:05. Mentioned it, but as production only started recently it may not be available yet.
I like your videos a lot. And i also can follow your conclusion. I learned recently, that there is again not just one sodium ion technology. A variety of anode/cathode materials will show up.
For grid storage and home storage, energy density is not real important, price is a far more concern, and with safety aspect a major concern, I do see these replacing Lithium in lots of situations, and if the energy density reaches parity, then vehicles may be forced to use them, for safety reasons and for material availability, I would like to see some real torture tests done on these batteries, also, I wonder if a hybrid battery using Sodium Ion and a cache of LF would be the future for Vehicle's?
Interesting thoughts...
It will depend on price for me. LFPs are getting cheaper than good lead acids. Perhaps sodium ion batteries could be assembled in affordable high capacity packs for home systems, like 50k watt hours, to compete with flow batteries.
Hey Andy, this may throw a spanner in the works... I got 200Ah out of "220Ah" Sodium cells when charged to 4.0v. But I just tried charging them to 4.3v (which is mentioned on various places online as being the maximum) and they then produced about 265Ah. Maybe you can re-open the Sodium files and delve deeper. ;)
However, note that 3 of the 4 ZKE testers dies while doing this test. Shortly after the discharge (down to 1.5v) to charge transition, it seems to have stopped. Not nice smells coming from them, so be wary about killing test equipment.
That would mean overcharging the cells though.
Why would the ZKE die from this test?
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Some data online suggests 4.3v is fine. But I really don't know at this stage. It certainly worked.
As for the ZKE death, unsure yet, I still need to open them up.
Avoiding discharge of sodium batteries beyond 50% would be impractical (if considering as a replacement to lifepo4). It sounds similar to guidance for lead acid batteries.
Redflow are getting established with their flow battery other than that yeh nah, Andy your intros are top notch 👌🇦🇺
Thank you. Flow batteries never took off in any market. Too expensive, too much maintenance, too large and heavy. Sodium may replace them rather sooner than later...
Allow me to share another experience with battery manufacturers. This time the needed help in recycling. The way to extract and separate the valueable materials is by chemical separation, in order to do this the cells need to be crushed/fragmented...!!!. So, hence they cant have significant charge left. For NMC/NCA this was deemed to be 2,0V. My client already had a method they considered superior, immersion in a conductive fluid. While it worked in the lab (so-so really) we said that industrialzing this would be major headache and really costly. Our recommendation was an automated, adaptive electrical discharge. But no, they wanted the chemical process. So we designed this whila also shaking our heads in disbelief. After selecting a less critical engineering firm, they came back and asked us to suggest electrical method...As you have noted, there is a chemically related rebounce after short circuit, but it is also time/temp related. After a while the cell is dead for all intents and purposes. Perhaps you can "frankenstein" it by some cycling and so on? Funny is the AI is vague and you spotted it right away. In part this relares to the mysterious electrochemical life in a cell, its is not only the main and desired chemical, reverrsible reactions going on but a also smaller side reactions. Electrochemists rarely have a full understanding what they are and its consequences....Your work and discoveries are now reaching right into these domains, very impressive. I have a mentor, a german physicist I would like to tie you up with. Message me privately if you want this.
I think what people sometimes miss is that chemical elements are political. Choices are made for reasons of war, supply, ownership and pollutants. This is what influences the zeitgeist of battery development.
For Stationary storage,
Sodium ion battery is best.
Andy, you should have asked the AI if any of its information gathering sources included 'The Off-Grid Garage'? In the future, if it starts to begin its replies with "well...according to Andy" we will know the real truth! Well after this sodium mini series we sort of do haha!
Haha, go and ask it. Let us know what it says😃
The cycle life, price and availability are the determiners. Lead acid was the standard and they are now considered sub-standard. The price makes the different discharge curves rather insignificant. So long as the quantity of sodium ion batteries can be secured at a lower price, the charge rate becomes unimportant. The BMS must be tailored to the battery.
Excellent Andy thanks for the effort you put in. I'd love you to do a tear down of a FzSonick 48v TL200 battery (Sodium Nickel ) battery. cheers
Comparing third or forth generation of lithium batteries to first generation sodium batteries. Both technologies have there place but take into account cost of mining raw materials and availability.
i think salt batteries will be popular because they will be less than half the price of LFP for the capacity. It has a fraction of the manuf costs which leads to higher margins, more competition and discounted prices.
Just Do deep cycles with Salty1 alle the time, we will See, if it does any harm....., keep Salty2 at 0 V for one week an recharge it, we will also See 😅. THANKS, Andy
My guess is that they will take over the market of grid storage (where energy density is less of a problem). With scaling of the production, the prices will go down. And it uses Sodium which is much more abundant than Lithium.
I noticed improved capacity on 100% of my 32650 that i tested if i did formation cycles. Each cycled added less, 3 cycles were a trade-off between my patience and possible gains. Gains were around 5-10% mostly close to 7ish.
32650 is LFP.
I like that you've done this video Andy. I was so excited for these batteries.......that was until I got my hands on a data sheet last year. I didn't even bother getting any to test.
Here's something a little bit more challenging: how can we make a switch that activates a high current connection (like 100A) when the voltage of a battery drops under a given value (like 48V) ? This is for connecting an emergency battery when a main battery is on low voltage.
It would be wasteful to keep an emergency battery charged all the time just for the rare occasion of the main battery being low. It would be better to integrate the spare battery into the system, so the overall capacity is already larger and an undervoltage situation does not even occur before they are getting charged again.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia Emergency one is classic lead, it would not fully charge and drain from the pack to sustain itself. Main will be LFP-NMC hybrid anyway, quite the experiment but it should end up in a "best of both words" thing. Plus I can remote manage the lead battery charger and only activate it when needed. It will not drain anything when I don't want it to.
Andy, I really enjoy watching your videos. The enthusiasm with which you approach these experiments is infectious in the best possible way! :) With that said, I think you are choosing to ignore the biggest obvious reason why sodium ion batteries will eventually become even more common and dominant in the battery market than LiFePO4 is, right now..cost! As production scales, and costs plummet due to the relatively cheap and easy to scale supply chain for Na, the relative value of these batteries will be far greater than anything else currently on the market. Since I respect your experience and vision on this topic, do you truly not see the cost of sodium batteries dropping much lower that LiFePO4, making them the best value for consumers?
No, I don't see prices coming down for the reason you mentioned. If there is no demand, the price will not come down and will stay above that of lithium. Even if we would see a price parity and an increase in market share of sodium, it would free up more lithium production capacities and their price would come down as well (that's what we see right now due to the massive increase of production lines).
@@OffGridGarageAustralia - You understand that BYD is already building sodium-ion batteries, at scale, for their EV's? Cost and demand are always interrelated, so if a company thinks they can offer a Na-ion battery at a lower adjusted cost than LFP, the demand will be created by that cost advantage. Another major advantage of Na-ion is that they use far less materials that could be influenced by geopolitical instability. I'm surprised you don't realize that the lower cost of materials will inevitably be leveraged to result in a lower overall cost of production. When that happens, the reign of LFP will be over.
Great one 🙌😉
Who also wants more sodium videos? Please thumbs up 😊👍🏻
Hahaha, thank you. More to come.
Very interesting video , thank you Andy for all your research.
My pleasure!
I see sodium batteries exactly the same. Maybe we will see them in solar energy storage but till then the whole devices need to adapt to the high voltage range. Maybe in ten years 😉
Yes, 10 years is a good prediction when we could see an uptake of sodium in some applications and markets.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia I discussed with Tom Bötticher some days ago. He is a chemist specialized on batteries. He said that only sodium batteries based on layered oxide have auch a high voltage window. Sodium batteries based on prusian white (preußisch weiß) would behave nearly the same as LiFePo4.
I think they are just not in the market places like AliExpress i.e.
Sodium Batteries are the future. With DC to DC conversion, it will be very useful for reserve power.
Maybe for small applications, DC-DC will work but for large energy storage, the loses are to high.
But it compares both Na-ion and LiFePO4 to Li-ion rather than to each other as you asked (I'm responding to the first question here.…) because I assume there's little literature for training data comparing the two.
Edit: ah, you just said the same thing 😅
Edit 2: I'm pretty impressed by it suggesting a testing process for Na-ion batteries as it knows there isn't much data on the subject. I feel an off-grid garage project coming on!
Yeah, I found it funny, that it wanted ME to do the testing myself😄
Hi Andy, just two minutes to ask you a question:
I have a 24V system, 8 REPT cells, and I just got another 16 EVEs. I have 2 options in mind:
1. go to 48V and keep the 24V as an emergency system (but how to integrate the two systems?
2. Divide the 16 cells into two 8-cell packs and put them in parallel with each other.
Or do you have any other better ideas?
You're the only one I trust on the web! Super! 😉
Keep the 24V system and make 3 separate battery banks out of these cells.
We need new batteries to replace common lead acid starting batteries.
Sodium batteries are not suitable tfor 48V batteries, but for "HV" it could be the way. Most of the hybrid inverters have range of battery from 200V to 600V. But still you need a proper bms
HV could be an application, but most batteries for home storage are still LV.
Have you thought about using relays for Charge and Discharge Cut-off and connect with the different voltage of the technologies you have with all the chemistries and having all of them hooked up, But for example at 3.3 the lfp stops charging But li-ion keeps going til 3.7 and Cut-off and sodium keeps going til 4.xx values are off the top of my head, But same going Down so allowing each chemistry to absorb in the range They can
The current Sodium Gen1 is no match for LFP, but Gen2 will meet and quickly exceeds it. In Germany and Spain CATL is building new factories to deliver the demand on EV. The same process can be used to produce LFP and NA+ batteries. Country's don't want to be dependent on the price politics of Lithium. I think that Gen2 will relatively soon be available for us when Tesla and other car manufacturers demand them and hope then you want to test them also.
We will see how much demand there is...
Yes Please LMFP would be great. There are also Manganese rich ternary batteries and NMx type. The battery industry is moving away from Cobalt and is replacing it with Manganese. The added voltage manganese gives LFP really puts LMFP at an advantage. Plus the higher voltage allows the ability to blend in NMC material to add additional benefits.
The Manganese rich ternary or Lithium rich Manganese batteries will offer low metal costs with higher energy densities than LMFP with the same safety and better recycling. New battery factories will also beneifit because of the ease to produce ternary batteries compared to LFP.
Hello from Maine. You never asked about inverter technology to work with sodium battery.
There are far too many questions to ask as I said in the video. Feel free to ask the AI and post a summary here in the comments.
Dala's EV Repair has a video of using a whole, unmodified Nissan Leaf battery to produce his "mains-a-like" power, by using a Froneius inverter, which accepts very high voltages on the DC side. The "Home" solar world has become used to (and saddled with) the concept of 12/24/48 volt battery packs. Especially with LiFePO4 batteries and lead acid having some useful common voltages inverter manufacturers have so far had little need to accommodate other battery charge and discharge voltages.
IF the inverter makers can make wide input voltage units AND the battery makers can make sodium batteries in worthwhile quantity, and both can come together, THEN maybe the cheaper battery can seriously get into the solar power world at a reasonable price point.
Yes, a lot of ifs... if sodium has only half the capacity as LFP, you need double the space for your installation.
I think the new sodium batteries are more of a prof of concept .... I see them being more used in low power applications .... stuff that NICd batteries were used .
Now please rest some of the LMFP cells that are now available.
I'm not sure if it has been brought up but couldn't you possibly build a battery bank so that when it gets low enough relays(or something) could change its wiring from like 2p4s to like 1p8s to double the voltage that way the inverter could continue to use that remaining 20-25%? This may be totally off the wall thinking but just an idea.
Sodium batteries will absolutely take over because if manufacturing economy of scale matches lithium, raw materials price will be a fraction. If it's 50% or less than LFP, it'll be adopted and be the only choice for stationary batteries. This will allow for supply increase in Lithium batteries for vehicles.
There is already a hybrid sodium/lithium battery that is looking very promising.
while looking forward of testing LMFP batteries to the end of this year, have you considered to test Lithium Titanate batteries? they're available on the market for a few years already and have superior advantages compared to LIFEPO4
With about 40% capacity available for a decent lifespan and lower power density, I'd imagine they'd need to be about a quarter of the price of LiFePO4 batteries for home or industrial storage apart from niche cold weather environments.
Yup and even your niche is not true as to charge EITHER of them let alone for capacity you need to insulate them and have a heater to maintain temps. If you have to maintain temps anyways, then LFP require less maintaining of temps as Sodium ion start losing capacity and C rate for charge/discharge quickly below 20C.
Will they take off and replace LFP batteries? I agree with you they might not, but at the end it all comes down to $$, if production scales up, prices drop, demand rises for e.g. inverter manufacturers to adapt their new equipment to these extended voltages. But who will tell...
Price is only one factor. It can be cheap as chips but if it is larger and has not the capacity as other batteries, it's not good for certain applications.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia good point, i guess to really get to low prices, it will require a wide application range and high energy density, amongst other parameters is key for that
good analysis and honest opinion and I think so too. Sodiums are not 100% safe either and thats the fact and as far as I know any moisture and sodium will ignite that`s what it does anyway if you throw a piece of sodium in water but I don`t think lithium element itself would just ignite or react in water that violently.
I highly doubt they use pure sodium in there, as much as they don't use pure Lithium in lithium ion batteries. We'll see how safe they really are. Li-Ion batteries are walking time bombs.
@@xxxblackvenomxxx well I am just saying what I know so if Lithium can go into thermal runaway I don't see any reason then why Sodium wouldn't be even easier to do the same 🤷♂️
Sodium should go mainstream since sodium is cheap and is everywhere. the annoying fact is that we don't have inverters to work with such batteries.
Maybe special inverters will be needed or maybe they will fix this by a firmware update.
Anyway...the sodium promises cheap batteries and maybe your capacity will expand to store the energy during the summer and have it ready for the winter.
It is also an issue that solves this sodium batteries with the temperatures...you can charge and discharge them under - degrees and that solves a lot of problems.
I can build my yard fence out of sodium batteries that are very cheap for winter storage energy like 10 times cheaper than LiFePO4.
thanks for doing some testing, there's far to little data out there to do any meaningful assessment of these cells so any extra testing helps.
If the price of these come down as predicted i expect they will be fairly popular for storage where space isn't an issue. also if you just look at them as a better option the lead acid i don't think they are all that bad. if iv read your previous graphs right then running them at between 40-90% gives around 3.65 to 2.75 volts per cell which is 11- 14.6 V so the same as a LA battery and compatible with most inverters out there. granted your only using 50% of the cells capacity but that's the best you can do with LA anyway and these are definitely more tolerant of deeper discharges.
only time and real life use will tell what the actual cycle life will be for the end user.
if getting the most energy on a small space is the goal, then these have a long way to go, but they have to start somewhere.
I'm not sure why everyone is giving up so soon. These have only been out a month. We have had decades to perfect Lithium.
- I'm curious to see if/how Na battery chemistry advances. Maybe it could be a bit more competitive to Li at some point.
- I want to know what's happening with that plateau towards the end of the discharge curve. Is it going through a chemical change? Is it starting to use the passivation layer at that point? Very interesting.
- If Na cells can be produced far cheaper than Li, that could be a game changer for large grid storage as it's somewhere between NMC and LFP for cycle life.
I think sodium for non stationary use will work if it is mixed with lithium cells so they can be filled up first while the sodium cells can slower charge…. Someone will probably try 100% sodium but hopefully it would be on a ‘budget’ EV where the customer will likely be more acceptable of a bad charging curve. I imagine pure sodium cars being charged to 50-60% for daily use instead of 85%.. to minimize charge time and for pack health
Good job , thank you !
John. :-)
Thank you too!
I commented in one of your first sodium battery videos about cost. Usable Amp hour vs cost. At that time I showed they were already 10% cheaper $ vs AH. Even when you use only 70% of the sodium battery. Not only did no one acknowledge what I said you are now continuing with your statement 'they are too expensive.... ect'
Secondly.... the reason Lithium is on it way gone has nothing to do with the chemistry in the battery. It is the supply of Lithium that makes this a fore gone conclusion. May I point out that the chemistry you are so fond of did not exist 10 years ago. Thus claiming it will take decades for Sodium to significantly impact the market seem almost an over sight.
This is much more a global supply issue of lithium than it is anything else.
Take five minutes and investigate how many countries control 80% of the worlds supply and that is the end of the discussion. It is only a matter of time. Something must replace lithium even if it is something that is completely different from sodium. Given how abundant sodium is it is a great place to start.
There is more than enough Lithium existing. But you pointed it out correctly. Who owns it. Another question is the water consumption to wash out the Li. Recyling the Li in the future will be mandatory for every nation. Sodium is a good way for big storage to stabilize the grid .
Sodium will be the future of home power storage
Wow! ok after all that exhaustive sodium testing, you can spend this one on a Spat!
Thanks heaps, Jo.
All good info. Thanks for what you do.
17:15 This is my personal experience with A.I chatbot, is to not generalize the question too much, give it an more accurate example, tell it that you discharged it normally, then shorten its terminals, i think the bot take into consideration of shortening a battery at an unknown remaining capacity and energy. my guts feelings is if you ask general questions, you get those standard baby-safe paper-manual text nonsense.
18:42 much much better generated answer in my opinion.
I like the characteristics of LiFePo4 more, but I'm sure we'll see more of the sodium stuff. They can be produced way cheaper and this will push them into the market.
It is useful to remember that sodium batteries are quite new - and much like lithium batteries they will improve significantly over the next few years. I'm not convinced that your information is actually that informative here ...
Lithium will improve as well and also get cheaper (as we see right now).
As I said, I'm publishing my opinion. What is yours?
Heya, so it is depanding of the use at your specifications situation what battery kind you can/have to use.do I hear totally at the end what the new battery types your gone test ?!?!?!
Sounds like they would be ok for a car crank battery. The temp may be a benefit?
Who are you kidding? Did you see that voltage drop? It is far worse than Lead Acid and loses far more of its capacity due to cold than lead acid. LFP has better discharge when cold than Na-ion does and maintains its charge better to. Now charging is a bit different but not much.
@@w8stral You need to read what I wrote... my implication was to have a replacement for LA that is better for the environment.
No its not better for environment, that is just bunch of bull you made up out of thin air in your own "mind" with ZERO knowledge regarding mining/refining/ recycling. Just what do you actually think is in sodium ION batteries? Give you a hint: Sodium is the vast MINORITY of what is present. Just as Lithium ion batteries have very LITTLE lithium in it. And no, mining lithium is not toxic to environment and even if it is? Who cares? It doesn't matter. Said lithium was deposited there intially and there was zero life until the land healed itself, well it can do it again just fine and there are these things called humans which can help heal it after mining. @@markwright196
Right..... so sell the sodium battery shares and rebuy the cobalt and lithium
Hmm, colder climate use and exterior applications. With demerits formation I would not recommend compression. And install outside of An occupied area .
Thanks Andy 🤔
Thanks Wayne.
So we shouldn't regularly charge Na+ higher than 80% SOC, and we shouldn't regularly discharges below 40% SOC. That leaves 80%-40%=40% of the battery capacity available for regular use. Only 40%!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yeah, that was the AI recommendation. As we have seen, there is no information out there and it takes into account other chemistries as well.
Who in the world thought sodium was Superior to lithium the main advantage it would have is the fact that it's more widely available people thinking it's Superior are just wrong it's the next best thing as far as on the periodic table than lithium but it's an inferior choice
Such an early morning post. 5am... 🤣😂
Wait, I'm up at 5am? Fvk... 😴😴😴
Lucky me, it's 2pm on Sunday
Or in my case it is 8pm
Have you looked into Flow batteries as an alternative to your LFP banks? I'm curious how viable they are for a home off-grid system.
No, never. you cannot go online and order them just like LFP. Flow batteries are way too expensive and certainly nothing for a DIY project.
sodium batteries materials are a lot cheaper and accesible than lithium ones, so they will inevitably become cheaper with time, as more players will come into play
Relying on AI is a bit iffy, but I guess the verbally stated conclusions are not incorrect. But they are *incomplete*. No mention whatsoever on the environment. I really rather have a salt product as post-service waste then lithium. Not to mention the large open holes that are lithium mines, whereas Natrium/Sodium we can just get everywhere.
AI is definitely not stupid... we just need to learn to ask better questions...
Ty, I was curious. Sounds like a bit tricky to charge, maybe I specific charger is required or at least a custom config. Maybe by changing high end stop charge voltage below what 100% shows. If full V is 13.5, then set charge cutoff at 13.3? I would think both high and low charge limits should be set by the bms to a frickin safe number, jeez! I am curious about Sulphur batteries, but they are not yet available.
Hopefully Sodium batteries will go through an evolution curve like Lithium Ion to LiPo4 did ....matter of time and development ...but for now I think they have been rushed to market...
Very interesting video, thank you very much. M
Are you likely to test LTO batteries, you don't seem to promote the safety aspects of other technologies technology
I have 6 LTOs here but don't see the point of using them in a solar environment. They are more for mobile applications where fast charging and discharging is key.
It's almost as if the AI we have isn't AI at all. It's just reading to us what they want us to hear
Andy , asking AI its like Russian roulette :D . Ask AI about yourself - funny answer u get . 😂
Love this guy...
Love you too, Jason.
@@OffGridGarageAustralia If you were my neighbor you'd have to adopt me as you could never get rid of me:) I would be over there daily watching the projects- Thank you for sharing your experiences!
@@jasonhensley947 We could have a beer once a week... I could really use someone as an assistant, helping me with all these projects.
The car manufacturer BYD both make and use sodium batteries in their cars.
They wanted to, but ended up using LFP batteries for the Seagull/Dolphin Mini.
Sodium ion batteries just don't have the energy density. We need a room temperature solid state sodium sulfur battery.
No useful reply from the AI on the shorting test. I suggest you test one of the cells yourself for the community. I guess a couple of weeks of shorting would do the trick,
The BYD seagull was supposed to have a sodium battery this year. Or was is suppose last year but never release?
but then they put LFP batteries in the vehicle and shipped it. Sodium is not there yet for mobile applications.
Wright's law at work here. Sodium just starting while LFP been scaling a while. Sodium will be cheap beyond comprehension in 20 years.
20 years is a good guess. If no other chemistries will get there before that and make sodium obsolete.