"Don't follow the lights." "In Scottish folklore, will-o’-the-wisps are variously depicted either as mischievous spirits (typically fairies), or even the ghosts of the dead, eager to lead travellers off their path and into their death." A will-o'-the-wisp is a small flame burning in a marsh, usually fueled by the decay of plants and animals. (Or, it would seem, men and elves.)
Not just scottish folklore - seems to go back further into indo-european times, after all the same phenomena get mentioned in germanic folklore as well. In my german home country they are called "Irrlichter"/"Wandering Lights" with the implication of leading people astray, especially in swampy areas, bogs etc.
To explain how this is possible: Decomposition of most organic material gives off methane. Methane is both flammable and also can produce a glow or light when it erupts from the ground.
Agreed. This seems like a very clear Tolkien version of will o’ the wisps. Tolkien set to write mythology of the land and borrowed elements such as the figure of Gandalf as an Odin like figure. This seems like one more example.
When Frodo meets Faramir, he wonders if Faramir's witness of his brother's body is some trick, like the Dead Marches, but Faramir says the Enemy's magic always gives a sense of dread, which matches with what the hobbits felt in the marches
DUDE! No WAY your channel is this new!! My goodness, the production and quality of your videos are staggering🤘 Much love man, I know this channel is gonna go places 🎉
The descriptions and imagery of the dead marshes remind me heavily of how some of the nastier WW1 battlefields looked. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some inspiration there.
Most of the elves killed in that battle were Silvan elves, under the command of their Sindarin king, Oropher (father of Thranduil, grandfather of Legolas). Oropher's ruling policy was isolationist - the woodland realm initially covered the entirety of Greenwood/Mirkwood, however encroachments by dwarves and the elves of Lorien caused a slow and steady northward retreat, as Oropher wished to remain secluded from the rest of the world. He recognized the threat of Sauron, however, so answered the call of the Last Alliance with a great host. Compared to their Noldor kin, the Silvan elves were impulsive, disorganized, and poorly equipped. Oropher himself was unwilling to submit to the leadership of Gil-Galad, the Noldor king and leader of the greater Elven contingent. As a result, the Silvan host from Greenwood attacked prematurely, against the orders of Gil-Galad, and were massacred in the battle of Dagorlad. It is their corpses that litter the marshes. Personally, I find the explanation of "Sauron did it" to be wholly unsatisfying, especially considering that Sauron was defeated and vanquished shortly after this battle and thus would not have had the power to create this kind of grand illusion. Even if he did it much later, after regaining much of his power, why would he not then employ similar defences across the rest of his borders?. In Tolkien's world, there is great magic in deeds, and intent. Gandalf says something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing) "It is not great deeds of valour that hold back the shadow. It is the small acts of charity and kindness that hold the darkness at bay". Acts of kindness and purity, selfishness and greed, wrath and violence, can have supernatural consequences. For example, the lifespan of Numenoreans, granted by Eru Illuvatar, declined as they became more selfish, and spiritually disconnected from the gods. The kindness of Frodo went a long way to undoing the ring's supernatural, magical hold on Smeagol - while Sam's disdain and cruelty to Gollum likely reinforced it. It is my opinion that Oropher's selfish isolationism and refusal to engage with the world, combined with his pride at refusing Gil Galad's leadership, which got his people killed, laid a kind of curse on the battlefield, dooming all who died therein to remain trapped there, elves, men, and orcs alike. The magnitude of the fatalities - the grand-scale severing of Hroa and Fea - would have had a monumental spiritual impact on the area, like a kind of invisible supernatural storm. Though the elves fought bravely, they fought stupidly. They died overcome by their pride and lust for glory and, combined with the oncoming spiritual storm and the proximity of Sauron's aura of evil, were doomed to haunt the battlefield for eternity. This kind of magic is Morgoth's doing, not Sauron's. Morgoth, in his role during the Music of the Ainur, cursed the world to be forever tainted by fear and doom and dark magics. It is in this way that the will of Eru is defied, and the fea of Men and Elves are kept trapped under the dead marshes. Just my interpretation!
Yeah, this is kinda what I was thinking. Only Morgoth was powerful enough to create a cursed land which traps souls. And... we know Morgoth did some hardcore CURSED ----. We don't know the whole of it though. But it was some "ruined forever" grade stuff. But yeah... if it really is a cursed bog that traps souls... Morgoth did it.
i love ur interpretation !!! ^^ and like i haven’t read all the comments, but what about the simple scientific fact, that corpses don rly decay in swamps due to lack of oxygen, right¿ like i live next to an about 1km long marsh(switzerland) n they did find some preserved mammoth bits among other animals. and with a bit of scottish folklore(read in an other comment) i can totally imagine there to be bodies of all kinds of kin, additionally to the houseless spirits of Orophers wrath and their Sindarin „mindset“. if any of this makes sense…
I think you are so right that no other reasons outweigh your wonderful interpretation and opinion. I dare say this same thing is alive today in our world and has been for so long it defies description, almost! It is something that many has felt who never read any of Tolkien. And when suddenly men have become aware they have fought it. But all ancient kingdoms in our histories have become sundered and the truth is always twisted to the extreme causing men to turn on those who sense the evil who sours the beauty of our own lives and try to stamp it out utterly once and for all.
The influence on JRRT of his WWI Western Front experience of no man's land with its cratered landscape of water covering corpses & suffused with poison gases including phosgene. Also the sloppy trenches below this landscape whose walls were sometimes built from stacked corpses.
I'm so glad I watched this, it always troubled me the idea that the spirits of those men and elves were somehow trapped there for eternity. They had been through hell as it was just from the battle, I couldn't bear to think they were doomed to haunt the marshes afterwards. It also makes sense that Sauron would use imitations of the dead to cause dread, there would be elves still living that would have lost ones they loved during that battle, can you imagine the pain and trauma they'd feel seeing one of their loved ones in the marshes, Sauron would absolutely love the anguish he'd cause them if they dared to come near his boarders.
The part about the dead marshes includes Legolas’s Father; Thranduil, & Thranduil’s father Oropher, were to join the Last Alliance in from a different angle to achieve a certain war tactic but Oropher and others got waylayed by orcs & many corrupted men which lead to eventually Oropher dying there, this loss effected Legolas’s father so very deeply forevermore. The bond between he and his son is the same bond Thranduil has with Legolas. And the braid he wears is to honour his grandfather. I believe after his death braids became less common. A sort of respect thing I believe. Both his father and Grandfather lived in Doriath(Elu Thingol’s domain[Elwë], which was heartbea of middle earth; Aside from Gondolin which held this mantle until it’s secret location was given up by a tortured elf who was the son of a very important mother who was the sister of the high king Turgon). All on a landmass called Beleriand that sunk under the sea after a set of disastrous events that lead to many greater outcomes much later on in the legendarium. This here is a whole set of stories of which also includes a quite a bit of Galadriel too but moreso other characters during this era. Of Beren And Lùthien comes to mind and Children Of Hurin!! You’ll fall in love even more after the third movie. Then you can enter into the lore videos like Moviejoob and OmarioRPG have done reaction videos too. Amazing stuff. One thing to add though is this scene resembles a lot from the other battle Tolkien was involved in called The Battle Of Somme. Look into it and tell me your thoughts. I’ll add something here though: that clan of elves really didn’t like being under the command of anyone else so they went ahead without the order and let’s just say it didn’t end well. That and they weren’t fond of the Ñoldor… huge history there as to why that is. That and the Sindar subgroup of these clans were a tiny bit more isolationist. But there are many amazing Sindar in the legendarium too Elrond and his two sons and daughter are connected to all of the main clans of men and elves through the union of his half elf father and full elf(quarter goddess) mother. Who essentially played a huge role in saving the world from the original dark lord Morgoth. Gained the Favour Of Valinor. Which subsequently lead to Numenor being a gift from the sea to the men who helped. Becoming blessed. Their land existing within the light of Valinor as it was situated closely to The Undying Lands. (The same ancestry Aragorn has that Èowyn spoke of while they were travelling to Helm’s Deep! (Elrond’s Twin Brother became the first king of Númenor. His name becoming Tar-Minyatur, and those faithful to Eru, the elves and the natural world all of this line carried Tar before their name! Ar for Aragorn is the word meaning Noble in his tongue called Adúnaic. That too is a fleshed out language Tolkien created too. Elvish languages also were placed into the official list of world languages too!
this was really interesting, but i am more fascinated by the Houseless you mentioned, i've never heard of truly evil elves before and would love to hear more about elves who for whatever reason rejected the Valar
In the Silmarillion, it is mentioned that Sauron can create phantoms that are nothing more than visions or illusions of something that once lived. After all Sauron has been called by many names in the past, such as the Lord of Werwolve and the Necromancer.
Wonder if the faces could even be something more mundane... Bog bodies! Perhaps the marshes are dead enough to prevent decomposition of the bodies of the long-deceased, and occasionally the bodies are uncovered by erosion...
More deathly illuminations! "Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing." The Lord of the RIngs p.703.
In the Silmarillion it is mentioned that Water above all other elements remembers the things long past longer then all else. In this they are referring to things like shipwrecks and other objects of the living that have come to lay in its depths and of course a Silmaril, but I bet this extends to great battles especially if some kind of magic was used to kill all those people that are seen in the Marshes. So I could totally see these being only reflections made in the waters like you speculate. I think that was also what Peter Jackson was implying since the world under the water appeared to be similiar to the Wrath World depictions in the films, the water was also dark and deep once under the surface; but from above it looked like a shallow marsh just deep enough to keep the bodies covered in water. Also just speculation on my part but also mentioned in the Silmarillion was an explanation as to why the river that runs through Murk Wood was dangerous to drink or even touch so this might extend to the Marshes as well though maps between the ages before and after the sinking of the Western portion of Middle Earth and Numenor are hard to lock down geographically but Morgoth's influence and industry poisoned the water sources coming out of the springs from (I think it was) the Iron Mountains so the Marshes might be another spot this water flowed too, or it could be a similiar thing happening at the edge of Mordor. Or maybe its just yet another attempt by Sauron to wage some kind of psychological warfare on men and elves so they would not approach Mordor from what appears to have been a blind or weak spot the Orcs can't cross.
@@legendrings9189 That is only according to Gollum and the Peter Jackson retelling. In the books Gollum speculates it was a forgotten graveyard swallowed up by the marshes that are "always creeping, always growing and creeping" and says his grandmother used to tell them stories of the land that scared young Smeagol. So really all we know is Smeagol's people circa 600 years before the events in Lord of the Rings had ghost stories about the land and since then it had sunk into the Marshland as it expanded. We don't actually know who or what they are from but they could be the dead from the Last Alliance when Sauron lost the Ring, or from the War of Wrath when Melkor was finally beaten, or they could be from events much older like the Battle of Sudden Fire or one of the many battles during the War of the Great Jewels once Men had woken and joined with the Elves.
Not to say you're wrong about the possible trickery of Sauron regarding the Dead Marshes, I would still offer the Barrow Wights as an example of souls entrapped in defiance of the will of Eru. Of course I cannot discount my lesser degree of research which may well have unearthed a passage that entirely shoots this down. Love your efforts! 😊
The faces in the marshes could also be related to the far more gruesome and psychologically devastating heads of those soldiers the Dark Lord's forces killed in the battle of the Pelennor Fields and then had lobbed over Gondor's walls. Tolkien seemed to enjoy doubling or contrasting scenes. Consider Moria and Lothlorien. One the home of dwarves the other the home of Elves. One a palace and fortres underground, the other a home where ppl built their abodes in trees, in the air. One the home of gems, the other a way home for at least one star, the morning star. Or compare the Midgewater marshes to the Dead marshes. Very much an example of JRRT's desire to include in his Magnus opus both stories that reached to the sky and stories that were the salt of the earth of. Sam is very much a salt of the earth Hobbit whereas Frodo becomes nearly epherial even in the metaphysical or philosophical realm. For instance, his observation that no Hobbit had ever killed another Hobbit and he had no intention of that starting just because of a battle between Sharky's men and Hobbits, even if some of the Hobbits had gone over to Saurman's side.
Sauron is/was known as the necromancer. The faces in the water may be more malignant then just simple illusions. In the lands of and surrounding mordor it may be advisable to be superstitious considering the ring wraiths are not the only dark spirits Sauron has under his command.
I always saw the dead faces as counterparts of the barrow-wights. The physical remains (symbolic or otherwise), images inhabited by fell spirits who wished to ensnare the living.
These are great videos. I have a question that has been on my mind for a while; hopefully you have a theory. It has been said that, if Sauron did in fact find for himself the One Ring, that if for some reason the Fellowship had completely failed in their quest, then Middle Earth would be doomed, and that there would be no hope for it. Sauron would be so powerful that he pretty much would have control over Middle Earth in perpetuity. Is that a definite though? Did not an alliance of elves and men, at the footsteps of Mt. Doom, hand Sauron a significant defeat by cutting off the One Ring from his hand? Of course we know that Isildur fell to the power and allure of the Ring and could not destroy it - that part we know. In any case, there is precedent, even if with much toil and sacrifice, that Sauron could in fact be defeated, even while possessing the One Ring. I contend that, even if it would take several millennia, the will of the people of Middle Earth could somehow eventually find a way to overthrow Sauron yet again. Perhaps you could create a video presenting why you think the above would never be possible, due to Sauron having learned his lesson and all during the Third Age planning how he would NOT let the same fate befell him yet another time. Or that my scenario that I present would still be possible, and that the words that old king Aragorn of Gondor, son of Arathorn, said to Haleth son of Háma would yet again hold true: “There is ALWAYS hope.”
The thing is, by the time of the events seen in LOTR there is no realm of men or elves able to defeat Sauron, in the last alliance the realms of Gondor and Arnor were at the peak of their power, sauron learned the lesson, destroying Arnor to the ground, and wearing down Gondor slowly(which also contributed to its own weakening by a long anf bloody civil war). On the other hand, the elves never got back on their feet after the war, they are dwindling in numbers, no longer have a high king, much less is their trust in humans. Even without the ring did Sauron almost destroy the white city, he does not only hold the power, but also the time to conquer slowly and by undirect means if neccesary. And there is another thing, if Sauron got the one ring back, the three of the elves would become useless, as they would fall under his power if wore in that scenario. Tolkien built a story in such a precise way, there could only one thing to be done, and that is with the ring being destroyed, iven though it's an almost impossible thing to achieve.
I wonder. Would Iluvatar have permitted such a doom? After the great music ends Iluvatar tells Melkor that despite his attempts to undermine and mar the Music, he, Iluvatar, has transformed some phenomenon that appears, shall we say cold and cruel, such as ice, into icicles. In the end, because of Iluvatar (in Universe understanding here) Sauron had free will. Had he stepped away from the precipice he would have been saved. His choice to carry on with evil doomed him to destruction. The only question for us is how his destruction would have been achieved.
There are numerous interpretations as to what happened to Oropher's army after they were decimated. In their opposition to Sauron, they refused to take orders from men or Sindar and they were slaughtered in the Dead Marshes. The apparitions obviously relate to this dead army, beyond that is speculation.
Um, no. Not exactly. The Unfinished Tales reports that Oropher's army charged the Black Gate, with Oropher at the head of his men. Many died, including Oropher. Meanwhile, the forces of Amdir of Lorien were driven into the marshes and died. Thranduil returned to the Great Greenwood with barely a third of the army he and his father had set out with. The son of Amdir, also known as Malgalad, was Amroth, who later drowned when the Balrog was awakened in Moria. He ruled in Lorien for about 1800 years before that happened. He was succeeded by Celeborn and Galsdriel.
I think this may be a reference to bog bodies, which Tolkien may have been aware of, since these bodies which in real life were usually ritually killed, and tied down in the bog which preserved them, it provides an idea that the spirit may be ritually bound to the body. If Tolkien applied this idea, that the marsh causes the spirit to be trapped then the fallen might be bound to their bodies forever, since they would not decompose!
I think the Peter Jackson take on this part of the book is as much inspired by the song “Still Life” by Iron Maiden (Piece of Mind LP) which is, in itself, inspired by the Dead Marshes.
I have never heard of the Houseless before. Where does Tolkien mention this? Interesting concept. I kind of assumed the evil spirits in the Marshes were not those that originally possessed the bodies, but something akin to the barrow wights. I like your theory, though.
I believe that the Houseless spirits are mentioned in The Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, to be found in The History of Middle-earth. However, my memory is foggy, and I can't vouch for the exact source. It is somewhere in the vast published posthumous papers. The Elves believed that the spirit is undying, although the body may be destroyed. Hence the problem of Finwe wanting to remarry when his first wife refused to leave the Halls of Mandos. Spirits may wish to live again and will be rehoused in a new body, but only through Mandos. Any spirit that refuses the call of Mandos to the Halls of Waiting and remains in the m8ddle lands can become dangerous, according to the lore.
Since Tolkien was a fan of history and folklore, I'd like to mention the "White Women". These are patches of particularly dense fog that can easily disorient people in marshes. These mists tend to look a bit like pieces of sheets (like layered patches of intense fog). The folklore around fog like that resembles Tolkien 's descriptions (paired with dwarrow lights/willothewhisps). As someone born and raised in the north of the Netherlands, "Witte Wieve" ("White Women/wives/witches" depending on the area) are uncanny and the disorientation has caused big mummies throughout history, which sometimes end up coming back up to the surface. I can see how some of such tales might have translated into the story of the dead marshes in some form. No real way to know, but it's always struck me as very similar, personally.. ❤
As I understand it, Tolkien got the idea from the Battle of the Somme. Men who weren't careful sometimes fell into mud-filled trenches and drown. Artillery would sometimes churn up some of their bodies. In a very real sense, Tolkien walked through the Dead Marshes himself. On a related note, there's an actual battle in that war in which a German army of over 7,000 men were routed by about 100 undead Russians. No joke. It was called "Attack of the Dead Men;" look it up sometime. The channel Sabaton History has an episode about it.
The one thing I fail to understand about the dead marshes is if men and elves fought evil as they are good, then why do their spirits linger? Why would Aluvatah sorry spelling do this
@Crafty_Spirit Spirits can elect to refuse the call of Mandos, and of all the Elves, the spirits of the Nandor, the Greenelves, would be the most likely to do this. They never particularly wanted to follow the Vanyar to Valinor, and they forgot about it fairly quickly during the Great Journey.
@@erynlasgalen1949 I know that, but obviously these spirits would not choose to dwell in the Dead Marshes but rather literally anywhere else than the place of their gruesome and untimely death. There is just nothing in this chapter that indicates the presence of houseless spirits
Greetings A most excellent video but please do *not* use that whooshing sound during transitions anymore. It is extremely jarring and really disrupts the flow of your beautiful videos. . Annon allen 🤘
I don't think they have human souls. Because when they die, their souls must leave Arda (except in special cases such as Oathbreakers). When they die, their souls do not have the freedom and choice to go to Mandos or stay in Middle-earth like the elves'. If they are truly spiritual beings, I think these beings are the souls of the dead elves who want to stay in Middle-earth. (A situation that constitutes a source of soul mines that Sauron will need within the scope of my orc production theory.) Also, for elves, a disembodied soul tends to claim another being's body as its home. Because the elf soul inherently wants to have an incarnated existence. That's why they may have influenced Frodo and pulled him into the water to incarnate into his body. It is quite logical that there are no bodies of those who died in the Dead Marshes. Because when the soul leaves the body, just as the body was structured from the material of Arda, it dissolves and mixes back into the material of Arda. This event is perhaps a spell of Sauron. It's a hallucination that it makes passers-by feel. Some kind of paranormal phenomenon. (Like what Sauron did to Gorlim in the First Age) Because if these beings really exist and are in an etherically spiritual form, they should not be visible to a being in the Visible Universe (for example, Frodo and Sam), but from their statements (if they are not hallucinating) It appears that they can be physically seen. Beings belonging to the Invisible Universe should not have been visible to Frodo and Sam (unless they used the One Ring). In conclusion, we can combine both approaches: Sauron captured the souls of deceased elves and imprisoned them in the Dead Marshes rather than using them to breed orcs. The ability to see spirits was an illusion created by Sauron, but they existed in reality. He used their incarnated existence tendencies as a means of defense against enemies who tried to pass through.
Oh, I don't know. I think Jackson's addition is fine. You can't put less weight on one thing Gollum says and a ton of weight on another. It could be that so much intense violence in one spot could create a condition that thwarts the natural progression of the dead. And I'm not a huge fan of Jackson's LOTR.
What about the " Watchers in the Water" - are there not older and more terrible monsters in the depths!?! - perhaps a similar primeval predator has been drawn into the foul swamp waters. !🇨🇦
I have a counter theory to the one you have posited here: It was always my understanding that the Dead Marshes were the site of Sauron's fall at the hands of Isuldir, when the One Ring was cut from his finger. I would offer that the release of power when Sauron was separated from his ring could have had the effect of trapping the souls of the fallen in that land. Over time, as the land became swampy, the pools reflected the the faces of the souls trapped within, showing each man, elf, or orc where they had fallen in battle. The 'candles' could also be construed as a type of 'witch fire' created by the lingering power, or perhaps by the trapped spirits themselves, and with no way to ascend, the souls would have eventually fallen into madness, or been corrupted by Sauron during his return with the purpose of luring the unwary to their deaths as they themselves try to escape their ghostly prison. This was always the way I perceived the scenario when I read the chapter in the book. To me, it added to the dread and 'dark magic' of the cursed lands that bordered Mordor and would still agree with your theory that it was a part of the defense of Sauron's lands, indirectly caused by Sauron when he was defeated at the end of that battle. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks, and fantastic video!
the ring was cut at the slopes of mt doom. 'I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell...; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.' The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 2, Ch 2, The Council of Elrond
Wrong. In the original books there is a part that says Gollum tried to "eat the faces in the water" without success. Sam is disgusted by that, but Frodo pushes him forward.
"Don't follow the lights."
"In Scottish folklore, will-o’-the-wisps are variously depicted either as mischievous spirits (typically fairies), or even the ghosts of the dead, eager to lead travellers off their path and into their death."
A will-o'-the-wisp is a small flame burning in a marsh, usually fueled by the decay of plants and animals. (Or, it would seem, men and elves.)
Thank you for this info..... Heard pieces parts of the Folklore in a disjointed manner.
Not just scottish folklore - seems to go back further into indo-european times, after all the same phenomena get mentioned in germanic folklore as well.
In my german home country they are called "Irrlichter"/"Wandering Lights" with the implication of leading people astray, especially in swampy areas, bogs etc.
Same thing in Germany where they are called "irrlichter"
To explain how this is possible: Decomposition of most organic material gives off methane. Methane is both flammable and also can produce a glow or light when it erupts from the ground.
Agreed. This seems like a very clear Tolkien version of will o’ the wisps. Tolkien set to write mythology of the land and borrowed elements such as the figure of Gandalf as an Odin like figure. This seems like one more example.
When Frodo meets Faramir, he wonders if Faramir's witness of his brother's body is some trick, like the Dead Marches, but Faramir says the Enemy's magic always gives a sense of dread, which matches with what the hobbits felt in the marches
Dam guise, cut hymn sum slaque 😂
Marshes*
DUDE! No WAY your channel is this new!! My goodness, the production and quality of your videos are staggering🤘 Much love man, I know this channel is gonna go places 🎉
Exactly what I thought.
The descriptions and imagery of the dead marshes remind me heavily of how some of the nastier WW1 battlefields looked. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some inspiration there.
Tolkien was a soldier in the first world war, so I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote that out of experience.
Tolkien was at the Somme, the whole “nasty swamp full of dead bodies dragging you down to join them” makes a lot more sense with that context
Most of the elves killed in that battle were Silvan elves, under the command of their Sindarin king, Oropher (father of Thranduil, grandfather of Legolas). Oropher's ruling policy was isolationist - the woodland realm initially covered the entirety of Greenwood/Mirkwood, however encroachments by dwarves and the elves of Lorien caused a slow and steady northward retreat, as Oropher wished to remain secluded from the rest of the world.
He recognized the threat of Sauron, however, so answered the call of the Last Alliance with a great host. Compared to their Noldor kin, the Silvan elves were impulsive, disorganized, and poorly equipped. Oropher himself was unwilling to submit to the leadership of Gil-Galad, the Noldor king and leader of the greater Elven contingent. As a result, the Silvan host from Greenwood attacked prematurely, against the orders of Gil-Galad, and were massacred in the battle of Dagorlad. It is their corpses that litter the marshes.
Personally, I find the explanation of "Sauron did it" to be wholly unsatisfying, especially considering that Sauron was defeated and vanquished shortly after this battle and thus would not have had the power to create this kind of grand illusion. Even if he did it much later, after regaining much of his power, why would he not then employ similar defences across the rest of his borders?.
In Tolkien's world, there is great magic in deeds, and intent. Gandalf says something to the effect of (I'm paraphrasing) "It is not great deeds of valour that hold back the shadow. It is the small acts of charity and kindness that hold the darkness at bay".
Acts of kindness and purity, selfishness and greed, wrath and violence, can have supernatural consequences. For example, the lifespan of Numenoreans, granted by Eru Illuvatar, declined as they became more selfish, and spiritually disconnected from the gods. The kindness of Frodo went a long way to undoing the ring's supernatural, magical hold on Smeagol - while Sam's disdain and cruelty to Gollum likely reinforced it.
It is my opinion that Oropher's selfish isolationism and refusal to engage with the world, combined with his pride at refusing Gil Galad's leadership, which got his people killed, laid a kind of curse on the battlefield, dooming all who died therein to remain trapped there, elves, men, and orcs alike. The magnitude of the fatalities - the grand-scale severing of Hroa and Fea - would have had a monumental spiritual impact on the area, like a kind of invisible supernatural storm. Though the elves fought bravely, they fought stupidly. They died overcome by their pride and lust for glory and, combined with the oncoming spiritual storm and the proximity of Sauron's aura of evil, were doomed to haunt the battlefield for eternity.
This kind of magic is Morgoth's doing, not Sauron's. Morgoth, in his role during the Music of the Ainur, cursed the world to be forever tainted by fear and doom and dark magics. It is in this way that the will of Eru is defied, and the fea of Men and Elves are kept trapped under the dead marshes.
Just my interpretation!
Yeah, this is kinda what I was thinking. Only Morgoth was powerful enough to create a cursed land which traps souls. And... we know Morgoth did some hardcore CURSED ----. We don't know the whole of it though. But it was some "ruined forever" grade stuff.
But yeah... if it really is a cursed bog that traps souls... Morgoth did it.
i love ur interpretation !!! ^^
and like i haven’t read all the comments, but what about the simple scientific fact, that corpses don rly decay in swamps due to lack of oxygen, right¿ like i live next to an about 1km long marsh(switzerland) n they did find some preserved mammoth bits among other animals. and with a bit of scottish folklore(read in an other comment) i can totally imagine there to be bodies of all kinds of kin, additionally to the houseless spirits of Orophers wrath and their Sindarin „mindset“.
if any of this makes sense…
even in our own myths we have ghost stories based around entire battlefields. Gettysburg is a good example of this
I think you are so right that no other reasons outweigh your wonderful interpretation and opinion. I dare say this same thing is alive today in our world and has been for so long it defies description, almost! It is something that many has felt who never read any of Tolkien. And when suddenly men have become aware they have fought it. But all ancient kingdoms in our histories have become sundered and the truth is always twisted to the extreme causing men to turn on those who sense the evil who sours the beauty of our own lives and try to stamp it out utterly once and for all.
The influence on JRRT of his WWI Western Front experience of no man's land with its cratered landscape of water covering corpses & suffused with poison gases including phosgene. Also the sloppy trenches below this landscape whose walls were sometimes built from stacked corpses.
Actually, he never based his books on his time spent in the military.
“Akshully”
I'm so glad I watched this, it always troubled me the idea that the spirits of those men and elves were somehow trapped there for eternity. They had been through hell as it was just from the battle, I couldn't bear to think they were doomed to haunt the marshes afterwards. It also makes sense that Sauron would use imitations of the dead to cause dread, there would be elves still living that would have lost ones they loved during that battle, can you imagine the pain and trauma they'd feel seeing one of their loved ones in the marshes, Sauron would absolutely love the anguish he'd cause them if they dared to come near his boarders.
The part about the dead marshes includes Legolas’s Father; Thranduil, & Thranduil’s father Oropher, were to join the Last Alliance in from a different angle to achieve a certain war tactic but Oropher and others got waylayed by orcs & many corrupted men which lead to eventually Oropher dying there, this loss effected Legolas’s father so very deeply forevermore. The bond between he and his son is the same bond Thranduil has with Legolas. And the braid he wears is to honour his grandfather. I believe after his death braids became less common. A sort of respect thing I believe. Both his father and Grandfather lived in Doriath(Elu Thingol’s domain[Elwë], which was heartbea of middle earth; Aside from Gondolin which held this mantle until it’s secret location was given up by a tortured elf who was the son of a very important mother who was the sister of the high king Turgon). All on a landmass called Beleriand that sunk under the sea after a set of disastrous events that lead to many greater outcomes much later on in the legendarium. This here is a whole set of stories of which also includes a quite a bit of Galadriel too but moreso other characters during this era. Of Beren And Lùthien comes to mind and Children Of Hurin!! You’ll fall in love even more after the third movie. Then you can enter into the lore videos like Moviejoob and OmarioRPG have done reaction videos too. Amazing stuff.
One thing to add though is this scene resembles a lot from the other battle Tolkien was involved in called The Battle Of Somme. Look into it and tell me your thoughts.
I’ll add something here though: that clan of elves really didn’t like being under the command of anyone else so they went ahead without the order and let’s just say it didn’t end well. That and they weren’t fond of the Ñoldor… huge history there as to why that is. That and the Sindar subgroup of these clans were a tiny bit more isolationist. But there are many amazing Sindar in the legendarium too Elrond and his two sons and daughter are connected to all of the main clans of men and elves through the union of his half elf father and full elf(quarter goddess) mother. Who essentially played a huge role in saving the world from the original dark lord Morgoth. Gained the Favour Of Valinor. Which subsequently lead to Numenor being a gift from the sea to the men who helped. Becoming blessed. Their land existing within the light of Valinor as it was situated closely to The Undying Lands. (The same ancestry Aragorn has that Èowyn spoke of while they were travelling to Helm’s Deep! (Elrond’s Twin Brother became the first king of Númenor. His name becoming Tar-Minyatur, and those faithful to Eru, the elves and the natural world all of this line carried Tar before their name! Ar for Aragorn is the word meaning Noble in his tongue called Adúnaic. That too is a fleshed out language Tolkien created too. Elvish languages also were placed into the official list of world languages too!
this was really interesting, but i am more fascinated by the Houseless you mentioned, i've never heard of truly evil elves before and would love to hear more about elves who for whatever reason rejected the Valar
In the Silmarillion, it is mentioned that Sauron can create phantoms that are nothing more than visions or illusions of something that once lived.
After all Sauron has been called by many names in the past, such as the Lord of Werwolve and the Necromancer.
Wonder if the faces could even be something more mundane... Bog bodies! Perhaps the marshes are dead enough to prevent decomposition of the bodies of the long-deceased, and occasionally the bodies are uncovered by erosion...
Excellent analysis. True to Tolkien’s mythology.
More deathly illuminations!
"Not the imprisoned moonlight welling through the walls of Minas Ithil long ago, Tower of the Moon, fair and radiant in the hollow of the hills. Paler indeed than the moon ailing in some slow eclipse was the light of it now, wavering and blowing like a noisome exhalation of decay, a corpse-light, a light that illuminated nothing."
The Lord of the RIngs p.703.
In the Silmarillion it is mentioned that Water above all other elements remembers the things long past longer then all else. In this they are referring to things like shipwrecks and other objects of the living that have come to lay in its depths and of course a Silmaril, but I bet this extends to great battles especially if some kind of magic was used to kill all those people that are seen in the Marshes. So I could totally see these being only reflections made in the waters like you speculate. I think that was also what Peter Jackson was implying since the world under the water appeared to be similiar to the Wrath World depictions in the films, the water was also dark and deep once under the surface; but from above it looked like a shallow marsh just deep enough to keep the bodies covered in water.
Also just speculation on my part but also mentioned in the Silmarillion was an explanation as to why the river that runs through Murk Wood was dangerous to drink or even touch so this might extend to the Marshes as well though maps between the ages before and after the sinking of the Western portion of Middle Earth and Numenor are hard to lock down geographically but Morgoth's influence and industry poisoned the water sources coming out of the springs from (I think it was) the Iron Mountains so the Marshes might be another spot this water flowed too, or it could be a similiar thing happening at the edge of Mordor. Or maybe its just yet another attempt by Sauron to wage some kind of psychological warfare on men and elves so they would not approach Mordor from what appears to have been a blind or weak spot the Orcs can't cross.
no magic killed them tho, just war.
@@legendrings9189 That is only according to Gollum and the Peter Jackson retelling. In the books Gollum speculates it was a forgotten graveyard swallowed up by the marshes that are "always creeping, always growing and creeping" and says his grandmother used to tell them stories of the land that scared young Smeagol. So really all we know is Smeagol's people circa 600 years before the events in Lord of the Rings had ghost stories about the land and since then it had sunk into the Marshland as it expanded. We don't actually know who or what they are from but they could be the dead from the Last Alliance when Sauron lost the Ring, or from the War of Wrath when Melkor was finally beaten, or they could be from events much older like the Battle of Sudden Fire or one of the many battles during the War of the Great Jewels once Men had woken and joined with the Elves.
Not to say you're wrong about the possible trickery of Sauron regarding the Dead Marshes, I would still offer the Barrow Wights as an example of souls entrapped in defiance of the will of Eru.
Of course I cannot discount my lesser degree of research which may well have unearthed a passage that entirely shoots this down.
Love your efforts! 😊
Great video. I am excited to see more of your videos.
An interpretation of the second passage reminds me of the jack o lantern lights of English/ European folklore.
The faces in the marshes could also be related to the far more gruesome and psychologically devastating heads of those soldiers the Dark Lord's forces killed in the battle of the Pelennor Fields and then had lobbed over Gondor's walls.
Tolkien seemed to enjoy doubling or contrasting scenes. Consider Moria and Lothlorien. One the home of dwarves the other the home of Elves. One a palace and fortres underground, the other a home where ppl built their abodes in trees, in the air. One the home of gems, the other a way home for at least one star, the morning star.
Or compare the Midgewater marshes to the Dead marshes. Very much an example of JRRT's desire to include in his Magnus opus both stories that reached to the sky and stories that were the salt of the earth of. Sam is very much a salt of the earth Hobbit whereas Frodo becomes nearly epherial even in the metaphysical or philosophical realm. For instance, his observation that no Hobbit had ever killed another Hobbit and he had no intention of that starting just because of a battle between Sharky's men and Hobbits, even if some of the Hobbits had gone over to Saurman's side.
Great Theory!
Sauron is/was known as the necromancer. The faces in the water may be more malignant then just simple illusions. In the lands of and surrounding mordor it may be advisable to be superstitious considering the ring wraiths are not the only dark spirits Sauron has under his command.
Hobbits did not have pointy ears. Is that supposed to be Gollums best Yoda impersonation?
Great video , Great voice . Thank you
I watch your videos already I dont know....maybe 6 or 7 times already. When the new video coming ?! Cannot wait to see...craving ...❤😂😊
The fire edits that you’re employing are overdramatic and best suited to when changing a subject, completely, if you must use such a resource
Completely agree
I always saw the dead faces as counterparts of the barrow-wights.
The physical remains (symbolic or otherwise), images inhabited by fell spirits who wished to ensnare the living.
I agree the faces were an illusion of Sauron's. I had thought Tolkien had said that somewhere, but I might be misremembering.
These are great videos. I have a question that has been on my mind for a while; hopefully you have a theory.
It has been said that, if Sauron did in fact find for himself the One Ring, that if for some reason the Fellowship had completely failed in their quest, then Middle Earth would be doomed, and that there would be no hope for it. Sauron would be so powerful that he pretty much would have control over Middle Earth in perpetuity.
Is that a definite though?
Did not an alliance of elves and men, at the footsteps of Mt. Doom, hand Sauron a significant defeat by cutting off the One Ring from his hand? Of course we know that Isildur fell to the power and allure of the Ring and could not destroy it - that part we know.
In any case, there is precedent, even if with much toil and sacrifice, that Sauron could in fact be defeated, even while possessing the One Ring. I contend that, even if it would take several millennia, the will of the people of Middle Earth could somehow eventually find a way to overthrow Sauron yet again.
Perhaps you could create a video presenting why you think the above would never be possible, due to Sauron having learned his lesson and all during the Third Age planning how he would NOT let the same fate befell him yet another time. Or that my scenario that I present would still be possible, and that the words that old king Aragorn of Gondor, son of Arathorn, said to Haleth son of Háma would yet again hold true: “There is ALWAYS hope.”
The thing is, by the time of the events seen in LOTR there is no realm of men or elves able to defeat Sauron, in the last alliance the realms of Gondor and Arnor were at the peak of their power, sauron learned the lesson, destroying Arnor to the ground, and wearing down Gondor slowly(which also contributed to its own weakening by a long anf bloody civil war). On the other hand, the elves never got back on their feet after the war, they are dwindling in numbers, no longer have a high king, much less is their trust in humans.
Even without the ring did Sauron almost destroy the white city, he does not only hold the power, but also the time to conquer slowly and by undirect means if neccesary. And there is another thing, if Sauron got the one ring back, the three of the elves would become useless, as they would fall under his power if wore in that scenario. Tolkien built a story in such a precise way, there could only one thing to be done, and that is with the ring being destroyed, iven though it's an almost impossible thing to achieve.
I wonder. Would Iluvatar have permitted such a doom? After the great music ends Iluvatar tells Melkor that despite his attempts to undermine and mar the Music, he, Iluvatar, has transformed some phenomenon that appears, shall we say cold and cruel, such as ice, into icicles. In the end, because of Iluvatar (in Universe understanding here) Sauron had free will. Had he stepped away from the precipice he would have been saved. His choice to carry on with evil doomed him to destruction. The only question for us is how his destruction would have been achieved.
There are numerous interpretations as to what happened to Oropher's army after they were decimated.
In their opposition to Sauron, they refused to take orders from men or Sindar and they were slaughtered in the Dead Marshes. The apparitions obviously relate to this dead army, beyond that is speculation.
Um, no. Not exactly. The Unfinished Tales reports that Oropher's army charged the Black Gate, with Oropher at the head of his men. Many died, including Oropher. Meanwhile, the forces of Amdir of Lorien were driven into the marshes and died. Thranduil returned to the Great Greenwood with barely a third of the army he and his father had set out with. The son of Amdir, also known as Malgalad, was Amroth, who later drowned when the Balrog was awakened in Moria. He ruled in Lorien for about 1800 years before that happened. He was succeeded by Celeborn and Galsdriel.
But if the faces with lights were a device of Sauron, isn't it self-defeating, because it means his orcs take a long way round the marshes?
HELL YES I LOVE THIS
I think this may be a reference to bog bodies, which Tolkien may have been aware of, since these bodies which in real life were usually ritually killed, and tied down in the bog which preserved them, it provides an idea that the spirit may be ritually bound to the body. If Tolkien applied this idea, that the marsh causes the spirit to be trapped then the fallen might be bound to their bodies forever, since they would not decompose!
Do you do any voice acting or narrate audiobooks?
pretty sure that a voice ki is used
During the video I kept thinking that, without the lights, the description reminds me of bog bodies
I think the Peter Jackson take on this part of the book is as much inspired by the song “Still Life” by Iron Maiden (Piece of Mind LP) which is, in itself, inspired by the Dead Marshes.
First comment! Please continue this series, it's very interesting info.
I have never heard of the Houseless before. Where does Tolkien mention this? Interesting concept.
I kind of assumed the evil spirits in the Marshes were not those that originally possessed the bodies, but something akin to the barrow wights. I like your theory, though.
I believe that the Houseless spirits are mentioned in The Laws and Customs Among the Eldar, to be found in The History of Middle-earth. However, my memory is foggy, and I can't vouch for the exact source. It is somewhere in the vast published posthumous papers. The Elves believed that the spirit is undying, although the body may be destroyed. Hence the problem of Finwe wanting to remarry when his first wife refused to leave the Halls of Mandos. Spirits may wish to live again and will be rehoused in a new body, but only through Mandos. Any spirit that refuses the call of Mandos to the Halls of Waiting and remains in the m8ddle lands can become dangerous, according to the lore.
Since Tolkien was a fan of history and folklore, I'd like to mention the "White Women". These are patches of particularly dense fog that can easily disorient people in marshes. These mists tend to look a bit like pieces of sheets (like layered patches of intense fog). The folklore around fog like that resembles Tolkien 's descriptions (paired with dwarrow lights/willothewhisps).
As someone born and raised in the north of the Netherlands, "Witte Wieve" ("White Women/wives/witches" depending on the area) are uncanny and the disorientation has caused big mummies throughout history, which sometimes end up coming back up to the surface.
I can see how some of such tales might have translated into the story of the dead marshes in some form.
No real way to know, but it's always struck me as very similar, personally..
❤
As I understand it, Tolkien got the idea from the Battle of the Somme. Men who weren't careful sometimes fell into mud-filled trenches and drown. Artillery would sometimes churn up some of their bodies. In a very real sense, Tolkien walked through the Dead Marshes himself.
On a related note, there's an actual battle in that war in which a German army of over 7,000 men were routed by about 100 undead Russians. No joke. It was called "Attack of the Dead Men;" look it up sometime. The channel Sabaton History has an episode about it.
The one thing I fail to understand about the dead marshes is if men and elves fought evil as they are good, then why do their spirits linger?
Why would Aluvatah sorry spelling do this
I don't think it's their actual spirits, maybe a trace that one leaves behind when they die
@Crafty_Spirit Spirits can elect to refuse the call of Mandos, and of all the Elves, the spirits of the Nandor, the Greenelves, would be the most likely to do this. They never particularly wanted to follow the Vanyar to Valinor, and they forgot about it fairly quickly during the Great Journey.
@@erynlasgalen1949 I know that, but obviously these spirits would not choose to dwell in the Dead Marshes but rather literally anywhere else than the place of their gruesome and untimely death. There is just nothing in this chapter that indicates the presence of houseless spirits
Awesome video, but please don't use the static audio for transitioning between images. Thank you!
That audio is very annoying. The flames look cheap as well, I would get rid of those too. But they aren't as distracting.
You hit it on the head! Sauron has used illusions before. He trapped Gorlim by showing him a phantom of his wife lamenting for him.
Such evil conjuring is reminiscent of the Witch king's magic too...
Greetings A most excellent video but please do *not* use that whooshing sound during transitions anymore. It is extremely jarring and really disrupts the flow of your beautiful videos. . Annon allen 🤘
What is static audio? And what is the converse called?
There the spirits of those slain at the final battle with Saurons list truely physical form.
I don't think they have human souls. Because when they die, their souls must leave Arda (except in special cases such as Oathbreakers). When they die, their souls do not have the freedom and choice to go to Mandos or stay in Middle-earth like the elves'. If they are truly spiritual beings, I think these beings are the souls of the dead elves who want to stay in Middle-earth. (A situation that constitutes a source of soul mines that Sauron will need within the scope of my orc production theory.) Also, for elves, a disembodied soul tends to claim another being's body as its home. Because the elf soul inherently wants to have an incarnated existence. That's why they may have influenced Frodo and pulled him into the water to incarnate into his body. It is quite logical that there are no bodies of those who died in the Dead Marshes. Because when the soul leaves the body, just as the body was structured from the material of Arda, it dissolves and mixes back into the material of Arda. This event is perhaps a spell of Sauron. It's a hallucination that it makes passers-by feel. Some kind of paranormal phenomenon. (Like what Sauron did to Gorlim in the First Age) Because if these beings really exist and are in an etherically spiritual form, they should not be visible to a being in the Visible Universe (for example, Frodo and Sam), but from their statements (if they are not hallucinating) It appears that they can be physically seen. Beings belonging to the Invisible Universe should not have been visible to Frodo and Sam (unless they used the One Ring). In conclusion, we can combine both approaches: Sauron captured the souls of deceased elves and imprisoned them in the Dead Marshes rather than using them to breed orcs. The ability to see spirits was an illusion created by Sauron, but they existed in reality. He used their incarnated existence tendencies as a means of defense against enemies who tried to pass through.
Oh, I don't know. I think Jackson's addition is fine. You can't put less weight on one thing Gollum says and a ton of weight on another. It could be that so much intense violence in one spot could create a condition that thwarts the natural progression of the dead. And I'm not a huge fan of Jackson's LOTR.
If you put the One Ring on a corpse would it animate it?
Never look upon still waters without first breaking the surface...
Lot of middle earth historians & experts here,Jejejeje
Let's just remember right now...Frodo and Sam (and Gollem) are walking through this mess *barefoot*. Ewwww.
it’s wet grass. Their feet are probably hardened to be point of practically being hard-bottomed sandals anyways.
What about the " Watchers in the Water" - are there not older and more terrible monsters in the depths!?! - perhaps a similar primeval predator has been drawn into the foul swamp waters.
!🇨🇦
Real World - whatever that meanz... I imagine marsh gasses & the perilousness of bog & moor country inspired such narrative landscapes !🇨🇦
I do not recognize the bodies in the water 😊
You do not recognize the bodies in the water
He was not! Gollum was lovable, thoughtful, kind and fluffy!
I have a counter theory to the one you have posited here:
It was always my understanding that the Dead Marshes were the site of Sauron's fall at the hands of Isuldir, when the One Ring was cut from his finger.
I would offer that the release of power when Sauron was separated from his ring could have had the effect of trapping the souls of the fallen in that land. Over time, as the land became swampy, the pools reflected the the faces of the souls trapped within, showing each man, elf, or orc where they had fallen in battle.
The 'candles' could also be construed as a type of 'witch fire' created by the lingering power, or perhaps by the trapped spirits themselves, and with no way to ascend, the souls would have eventually fallen into madness, or been corrupted by Sauron during his return with the purpose of luring the unwary to their deaths as they themselves try to escape their ghostly prison.
This was always the way I perceived the scenario when I read the chapter in the book. To me, it added to the dread and 'dark magic' of the cursed lands that bordered Mordor and would still agree with your theory that it was a part of the defense of Sauron's lands, indirectly caused by Sauron when he was defeated at the end of that battle.
I would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. Thanks, and fantastic video!
the ring was cut at the slopes of mt doom. 'I beheld the last combat on the slopes of Orodruin, where Gil-galad died, and Elendil fell...; but Sauron himself was overthrown, and Isildur cut the Ring from his hand with the hilt-shard of his father's sword, and took it for his own.' The Fellowship of the Ring, LoTR Book 2, Ch 2, The Council of Elrond
No.
Wrong. In the original books there is a part that says Gollum tried to "eat the faces in the water" without success. Sam is disgusted by that, but Frodo pushes him forward.
Nope, don’t agree
Wow, what a differenciated opinion, so precise, offering so much new to think about . . . .