Tantalizing. It's a shame Tolkien was unable to write full time for so many of his most potentially productive years. Being such a perfectionist, it's possible we'd never have gotten only 'finished' tales, but maybe we would have gotten a few more of them.
Tal-Elmar, is such a fascinating story. Like many of his unfinished works, I wanted them to go on til the end. I have to dig out my People’s of Middle-Earth read it again. Thanks for reminding me of this lost tale.
There is a mod for the old Rome: Barbarian Invasion game called Fourth Age, which was based on that lore, I played it many times a decade or more ago. Worth looking at, if you want to see how you could do.
I purchased Peoples of Middle Earth just so I could read Tal-Elmar, It's such a fascinating story and told from the perspective of a culture that isn't on friendly terms with either the Dúnedain or the elves, which is something we very rarely get to see. One of my favorite one-off stories despite it's incompleteness.
@@DarthGandalfYT Just watched your video on Tal-Elmar yesterday evening and I noticed something about the name which might help you to narrow down the people Elmar came from. You see, "Elmar" is a somewhat rare-ish or oldfashioned (but not outlandish/ remarkable) name in Germany. And although used as a male name, it's ethymology isn't necessarily. It is composed from Old High German: "adal" meaning 'noble' and "mari", meaning 'famous'. Old High German is the oldest written form of German (not Germanic) and - scholarly - describes the language as it was spoken between 750 and 1050 (for more information about regional boundaries, etc. I suggest to look at wikipedia). What is to note is that it was by that time clearly different and distinct from Old English (where Tolkien derived the language of the Rohirrim from; as you most likely already know 🙂). Now, I am not that deep into Tolkien lore and specifically how exactly he constructed the various languages. But maybe this bit of information can help you.
@@eugenebelford9087 That's actually super interesting. It probably isn't a coincidence, which would mean it's decent evidence in favour of Elmar originally being from a Northmen people.
@@DarthGandalfYT Well, this morning I found something which makes it even more intriguing - at least in terms of speculation/ fantasizing "what could have been?". You see, when digging up the ethymology, I stopped there and then. Today, out of curiousity I looked up the history/ biography of famous people bearing this name and pretty quickly stared at the stories of Count Elimar I and his son Elimar II. These are the founders of the noble house of Oldenburg - "comes in confinio Saxonie et Frisie potens et manens" which translates to: "powerful count living on the border between Saxony and Friesland". And it doesn't stop there! You said he wrote the story in 1955. At this time, branches of this house ruled as Kings and Queens of Denmark and Norway (since the 1450s) plus a certain Prince Philip (another decendent of this house) had recently married Elisabeth II and welcomed a son - now known as Charles III. Furthermore, during the reign of Elimar II, there was a military dispute with another noble house (Tecklenburg) over heridatory claims of his wife which ended up in an intermarriage. I guess, what I want to say is: Maybe we are looking at a potential founding figure for later men-ish rulers of places like Dale or Dorwinion or non-Numenorian nobles in Anor? I used (mostly) wikipedia to figure this out. Unfortunately for you, only the English version of Elimar I is as complete as the German one. On Elimar II (which is just a stub in English) you probably should have the German version translated for more detail.
Personally, I think that the cruel folk of the east were northmen rather than numenoreans, they are noted as carring weapons made by the demons of the mountains, I guess those are dwarves
I agree; Hazad also says that they hold three peoples as enemies: the wild men of the mountains/woods (Druedain?); the High Men of the Sea (Numenoreans?) and the Fell Folk of the East (relatives of the Northmen?). He also says that the Fell Folk were in wagons pushing towards the sea, which wouldn't fit the Numenoreans.
@@bearwoodian8607It could be that some disaster happened in the East, say the King (Sauron) attacked a Númenórean colony and there weren't enough ships, so some had to move west through lands. The people of Agar were in the muster of the 'North King', whoever that is, it doesn't sound like the Northmen were their enemy if there was a North King that they served.
Great stuff. I love all of Tolkien but anything not in the late 3rd age is top of the list for me. Way better than the 4,337th Gandalf video on UA-cam.
I think it's a real missed opportunity that the makers of The Rings of Power didn't base their series on Tal-Elmar - or at least, make it into one of the main threads. Here is authentic Tolkien, taking a different and even very modern perspective on the Númenórean colonisation of Middle-earth - that is, seeing it through the eyes of the inhabitants. You really don't have to make up nonsense about Gandalf arriving on a comet and being found by hobbits and the Elves needing mithril (made by a balrog and a Silmaril struck by lightning - or something) to stay alive while everyone is trying to guess which character is really Sauron, when we knew who it was all along. With Tal-Elmar you've got the perfect way of taking the viewer into the Second Age and with all the ramifications of the coming of the Númenóreans from a modern perspective. If I'd been the script editor of RoP, I would have even made the ships of the Númenóreans arriving in the Tal-Elmar story the very first scene of the series.
They could have replaced the Harfoots with Tal-Elmar, and even if everything else was the same the show would still be sooo much better. I want to like it, but at the same time AHHHHHHHH y'know? Lol
The problem is that the producers of TRoP don’t have the rights to anything from Unfinished Tales- they can really only pull from the supplementary material in LotR. *Most* of the plot weirdness of TRoP stems from the fact that they literally can’t actually depict the story of the Silmarillion directly on screen.
@@Pelhamfall right, which is why they should have avoided the whole storyline they are doing, and instead focused on the fall of Arnor, or anything in the third age really.
This is why I follow this channel instead of all the other LOTR channels. You find the actually obscure stuff I had no idea about instead of making the 47th video on the same stuff everyone knows.
Starts in the tall weeds and ends there, but enjoyable none-the-lest. And as said, notable for not being from the perspective of the good guys. One gets the feeling of men under the yoke.
My personal theory is that while Sauron was The King, that the Nazgûl were nominally lesser kings of a cardinal direction (plus the empire's centre). So the North King would have been a Ringwraith who led that army under Sauron's imperial banner.
That is really cool. I knew nothing about this story so will for sure get it read soon. I've always had an odd love for the general forgotten people that are vibing around Middle Earth just trying to get by day by day while these fantastical elves and powerful empires clash with orc hordes all around them so a story written from their point of view is super cool even if there was clearly some greater plan for Tal-Elmar, would have been cool to see him travel around a bit, slowly learning a bit more about the world which would give us a great view of how elves and men interacted with each other. And I do like the idea of these 'Fell Folk' the thought of Tal-Elmar connecting with this part of him while still trying to care for and support the people of his homeland in some way would be really cool to see.
I love that you do niche Tolkien content! I’ve read all his main texts (including the three greater tales of the first age) but I’ve yet to read all 12 volumes of history of middle-earth, so I love learning about lesser known tales such as this!
Well, let's face it, the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was of greater significance. Of course, he never really finished their story either. Today is Tolkien's birthday (he would have been 132) and I wonder if he was still alive and writing how many stories would remain incomplete. But I am eternally grateful for all we did get.
Fascinating! Had no idea. Here's what I think is happening in this story, context wise. (I do not pretend to be a profound Tolkien expert). - The story transpires late-ish in the Second Age, after the Numenorian kings engage in extensive shipbuilding and settling. The split between the King's Men and Faithful has begun, but Sauron has not yet been captured and brought to Numenor. Isengard is not yet built. The exact date is unknown but the available range is pretty narrow. - The protagonists are Hill-men. The live in close to a state of nature, or a war of all against all. Life is full of fear, darkness, and uncertainty. They live in a dark age, an age of decline. Their dark view of the Numenorians is foreshadowing; the temple of Morgoth with the sacrifices is not built yet but the Numenorians are on their way morally to becoming the people who will build it. - The protagonists live in uplands, but not too far from the coast, between the mouth of the Isen and the Andrast cape, maybe near the northern slopes of the mountains that later will bound the future Gondor (not yet). - The Numenorian settlement to the north is Vinyalonde, not that they know. To the south, it doesn't really matter what its name is, but probably something on the south facing coast of what will become Gondor (but is not yet). - The protagonists don't travel far. It's not safe. They don't know their world well. (Then again, Sauron didn't know where the Shire was, did he?) Their near neighbors are Pukel-men, who we find still inhabit this area in the Third Age. The general level of impoverishment likely is a secondary result of the devastating past War of Elves and Sauron fought to the north. Actually, this area never develops. - Tal-Elmar's grandmother was a Northwoman and a migrant captured in an ambush in the Gap of Rohan. Likely they were migrating to escape rule as described below or some sort of disorder elsewhere in a poorly controlled world. They are described as coming from the east because that's where the Gap of Rohan is relative to the protagonists' homes. They probably came down the Anduin and turned westward through the Gap. They might have been seeking Numenorian colonists to live near and feudally serve in exchange for feudal protection. - The protagonists are pretty weak and might have been auxiliaries to a larger ambush who got lucky in the moment with loot. The context of the ambush is unclear but might have been opportunistic rather than historic. - Neither the King's Men nor the Faithful are good colonists from the protagonists' perspective. Both the King's Men and the Faithful have come to conquer and to eliminate whatever is in their way. My guess is that the particular Numenorians in this story are among the Faithful (there are clues as to this) but that does not change their colonialist goal. The Numenorians clearly have a sense of superiority and entitlement: if these are the Faithful imagine the rapacity of the King's Men (this probably is what the father recalls). - The distant and oppressive rulers referenced probably are men kings bearing Sauron's gifted rings (on their way to becoming Nazgul if not already). These kings live to the north, in what in the third age will become Arnor (but is not yet) or in the land damaged by the past War. In the Third Age Arnor's destruction by the Witch King (one of these kings) recalls this time featured in this story (same geography, a sort of restoration). We now see that one of the reason Sauron made these was so that he could project power and control consistently distantly, which in medieval Europe (which Middle Earth resembles) was a perennial problem. - The main character will be adopted by the landed Numenorians, trained and educated, and will go on to have adventures and maybe lead, becoming one of them, as it were, and likely will be able to wreak revenge on his oppressors while saving his immediate family. Hope this helps tie it together. I welcome someone with more knowledge to elaborate.
I'm no mathematician, but the fact that she didn't get a single daughter either makes her the luckiest or the unluckiest person in existence depending on her perspective.
I think most anyone who owns history or middle earth had heard of this story already. But the way you added new context helped deepen my understanding of it. Thank you
GREAT video, these videos sure do enlighten everyone to stories most of us have not heard. Keep doing them because it encourages people to go buy the books they are found within.
"Was this short story supposed to become something much greater? We will never know because Tolkien felt like he had to rewrite Galadriel and Celeborn a couple more times" - nice.
I think you were definitely onto something here with this story. My guess is that Tolkien intended something big and dramatic with this story, with Tal-Elmar in particular. It's prophecy coming to full form. But from a different perspective that we were use to, compared with the other tales.
I guess that the "King of the North" title refers not to Sauron, but to the Morgoth. Both his strongholds, Utumno and Angband were located in northern lands. Also, Sauron was known for instigating Morgoth's cults and sacrifices for him, like during the last days of Numenor.
I'm glad Tal-Elmar is getting more attention nowadays, it is one of his few tries to tell a story in the second age, the others are Agaldor the tliligh walker, the Öostbroad and the Notion club papers. Tal-Elmar would have been our window into the Second age, our POV character who wpuld make Numenor and everything second age more easily approachable.
Tolkien missed a great opportunity in doing a sequel to LOTR by focusing the sequel on the previously unknown far east of middle earth far away from Gondor and Eriador. A whole new saga based on the Avari, eastern dwarves, blue wizards and men who lived in the far east after the fall of Sauron. There was so much he could have done with that. Long thought dead Ungoliant could have arisen and been kind of like a new dark force in the far east of middle earth. The possibilities could have been endless.
You are kinda missing something though, remember that the whole story of the world (or rather middle-earth) came as a product of Tolkien's thought experiments with language. There was never much to the lands outside of middle-earth (that's what he called them, the Arda thing was a Christopher editorial choice), and he would had to come up with a whole history, development of language, of religion, of migration and settlement of people, etc for the far east, an undertaking of several decades.
@@volpeverde6441 Disney? No thank you. Disney is just as woke as Amazon. I don’t want a middle earth with female lesbian trans queer, diverse people of color elves(I probably left out an alphabet or two).
“For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again can I make their like; and if I break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain…” Feanor Tolkien probably believed this wholeheartedly, LOTR was his Magnum Opus.
I always had in mind that Agar had to be near the location of what would become Osgiliath or even Anorien. We cannot assume the same North and East apply here, as from the perspective from the Men of the West, since this is from the persoective of the natives. The Great Northern King, could simply be a Mannish leader who had under his sway people living in the southern parts of Anduin, but he must have been called northern King because he resides to the north of Agar. While the Fell Folk from the East can be any force that attacked them from eastwards. Therefore it could also be the actual Northmen, or a branch of Northmen. Since they were taller and fairer, they could have been Northmen. Plus the demons of the fiery hills could simply be the Dwarves (of the Iron Hills??) who supplied them with good quality weapons, which is justified since Tolkien says (Of Dwarves and Men) that there was an extensive mutually beneficial friendship between Northmen and Dwarves. At least that's what I believe.
The Northking might be Morgoth. The 'hearing [Sindarin] in his dreams' was probably from learning to talk with his mother, when 'Dad' wasn't around. After growing up, such talk would be negatively reinforced, leaving memories of uncertain origin.
Human babies are born able to mimic the rhythm & cadence of our mother-tongue, having hear it in the womb: we begin with the music, and pick up the Form of words and the Voids between as we go. Tal-Elmars ability to speak Sindarin, learned "in long dreams" [12:05], speaks to having a Sindar mother, and a Valar/Maia's memory of how all is sung into existence.
Speculation video on the last desert and Were-Worms, i like the Earliest Draft and the links to both the time Tolkien lived and a major myth of the East, Did you know he was 22 when the Qing Dynasty signed over rule to the peoples republic of China!!!
The most strange tale of Tolkien's that never existed was Bara-Bagronk, a love poem by an orch to his wife. No such story ever existed. There is never ever any hint whatsoever that orchs married. Or wrote.
It's possible that Tolkien just didn't have any more of the story. Sometimes you get a great idea, you start writing, you're going along, and then... that's it. There's no more. It can happen at the end of an arc or in the middle of a sentence. You try to find more but it's just not there. Writers have these all the time, ideas that just don't pan out. We have no more because there was no more.
I have myself wondering that Elmar may be a Northman (Northwoman?). That doesn't explain why Tal Elmar was able to understand Sindarin, though. Perhaps Elmar is supposed to have been Half-elven? It's outlandish, but this story is so strange that I find myself considering it! :D
But were the Numenoreans speaking Sindarin? Or were they speaking heir own language, Adûnaic, that later becomes Westron or the Common Speach? It was related to the languages of the Northmen (especially those that were relatives to the House of Hador).
@@KaiHung-wv3ul They did, but since there is no reason for Tal-Elmar to know Sindarin it is reasonable to assume that Numenorean language here is Adunaic.
@@DarthGandalfYTFair enough, though even if you never have it on your channel, never let fear of the odd blunderbuss stop you from enjoying it my good sir.
4:48 If it's in the late Second Age, it certainly does. 7:59 It's said to have been a small harbour, maybe that was still the case and thus men and elves avoided each others ? I love and hate that Tolkien was such a perfectioniste. He made so many great stories that he never finished. 8:55 Why ? I'm not sure to see what connect the two.
I haven't read _Lord of the Rings_ in almost 20 years. I pulled down my red leather bound edition the other day and started reading. Damn what an engrossing book.
This is amazing. I wish we knew more about peoples like them. The story seems to grant a ton of nuance to the "evil humans", which LOTR for example only hinted at (with Samwise's comments about the dead Haradrim soldier). It seems also surprisingly anti-colonial. I really wish Tolkien had expanded on this. Or maybe a capable writer can pick up on this story and expand on it in a non-canon way.
The name "Hazad Longbeard" reminds us of the Dwarves. They were the "Khazad" and "Longbeards" (obviously Tolkien's reworking of the name of the Germanic Longobards' tribe of Late Antiquity) was the name of Thorin's clan in "The Hobbit". So, here we have onother occurence of Tolkien's constant play with names.
what's the game you're using for some of the imagery? It looks PS2-era-ish but then it looks like an early PC MMO like Everquest or even a bit like Elder Scrolls Oblivion with those open fields, but the NPC models and interior shots just are not up to that quality :P Great content btw, I do love a good Tolkien lore channel! Subscribed!
Lord of the Rings Online, which first came out in 2007. I think the landscapes still look great by MMO standards, but character models definitely haven't aged as well.
I think that them referring to Sauron as 'King of the North' might be because they actually don't know Morgoth was defeated. These people didn't see the War of Wrath, and who is going to tell them, Sauron? Why would he do that? It's more likely he'd just go on pretending to be Morgoth to keep people in line, acting like it's business as usual and nothing has changed.
In ancient times maps were *oriented* with the east at the top, south was on the right, north was on the left. The north was associated with darkness, evil, and monsters. This is why the word "sinister", Latin for "left", means evil in English. And anyway this is why Sauron was called the North King. For a map that is "orientated" in this old way, see Thráin's map in the Hobbit.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul thanks. 😀 I just figured it was more likely Northmen/Middlemen than lost Numenorians, coming from that direction - the Numenorians were seafarers and had no reason to be over there really yet, and they came from the south at the end of the story and were *not* linked to the others by the locals so they couldn't have looked too similar. - The Rohirrim are the only major people who are famed for blonde hair, and their ancestors had to come from somewhere, though these could maybe also have been the ancestors of the Northmen of Rhovanion that Eldacar's mother came from IF they too were blonde, but I can't find a physical description anywhere of them... EDIT: apparently the Rohirrim claimed kinship with Gondor THROUGH these people, so I guess they are related, so ancestors of one would be ancestors of both groups.
I read both Tal-Elmar and The New Shadow years ago when they were first published. I don't think they are strange at all. Tal-Elmar takes the pov of the non-Numenoreans. Why is that "strange"? It demonstrates Tolkien's gifts as a creator of worlds. Same for The New Shadow.
Wouldn't the North King be the Witch King of Angmar, but not yet king of Angmar, of course? He was the cheif of the Nazgul who might easily have been at large if we assume the story happena after S. A. 2251
Interesting that Tolkien seems to be grappling with some of the more pro-Imperialist undertones of his work. Acknowledging that people were conquered and violently displaced by the "good guys" would have added something to the larger canon
personally, Tolkien was devouted anti-imperialist and anti-colonialist, many of his letters reveal that. This is because local identity (language, traditions, connection to the landscape, earth) was what he valued the most, so he hated globalisation, before that word was even invented.
The political system of Agar, ruled by a presumably elected master, resembles Lake - town in The Hobbit. And Mogru seems like an even more unpleasant version of the earlier character.
A truly fascinating story - seems like there was a lot more nuance than the Lord of the RIngs, with even the Faithful getting a bit of criticism for their lack of regard for the rights of the Men of Middle Earth to their own land. Seems like Tolkien had an interesting idea with this one, too bad he never finished it.
It is known that the tribes of men of the South (Corsairs etc.) and East (Easterlings) came under the sway of The Shadow in the early ages after the Dawning of Men. Being thus in Shadow they never came into contact with the Elvin Folk and other folk of Middle Earth. Folk far more familiar with the truer nature of Ea. This is why the Men of the South (Corsairs etc) were the enemies of Elves and the Descedants of the Numernoreans and the Peoples of Gondor, Rohan and Arnor: They were deceived and fell away from the knowledge of Eru and Aman.
I'm feeling a little "Jacob and his 12 sons" vibe here with Tal-Elmar being the Joseph stand-in. I'm thinking Tal-Elmar would be enslaved/taken into service by the Numenoreans thanks to his sudden ability to know their language and the "long dreams" similar to Joseph's ability to see visions of the future. Hell aren't Numenoreans supposed to be inspired by ancient Egyptians too? Who knows? Maybe Tal-Elmar successfully averts disaster for the Numenoreans with his long dreams and becomes successful and honored in Numenor and at the end after Agar's downfall he sees his elderly father and brothers and takes them into Numenor. Consequently the Jewish descendants in that story would later flee during Exodus and establish the Kingdom of Israel. I think Tolkien abandoned that story since it was too on-the-nose. Then again I might just be reaching.😅
Please don't mention Jews into beautiful Tolkien's lore. They immediately would want money from whatever whoever bc they only pretend to be victims all the time. They are greedy af.
If these Numenoreans speak an elf-tongue, Sindarin, doesn’t that suggest that they are among “The Faithful,” and still worship the Valar (not death or Morgoth) and are friends of the Elves? The King’s Men--under Sauron’s influence--wouldn’t speak an elf language (even if it’s not the Quenya of the High Elves/Noldor). I’m confused.
That's exactly it. The Numenoreans that Tal-Elmar meets are Faithful, but the people of Agar probably don't know the difference between them and the King's Men. To them, they're all the same, and to be fair, both King's Men and Faithful were imperialists.
Tantalizing. It's a shame Tolkien was unable to write full time for so many of his most potentially productive years. Being such a perfectionist, it's possible we'd never have gotten only 'finished' tales, but maybe we would have gotten a few more of them.
This is a testament to how vast and immersive Tolkien’s writings are. Even this brief story outline is fascinating and leaves me hoping for more.
Tal-Elmar, is such a fascinating story. Like many of his unfinished works, I wanted them to go on til the end. I have to dig out my People’s of Middle-Earth read it again. Thanks for reminding me of this lost tale.
DG: "Did you know Tolkien started writing a sequel to the LOTR called The New Shadow?"
Me: "No."
DG: "Of course you did."
Me: ...
Haha, sorry about that, but now you know about it and now you know where to find it.
@@DarthGandalfYT All good man; keep the great content coming.
I'll be onest I was the same, "The New Shadow?" Never heard of it. Thanks DG for teaching me something new.
I was the same LOL
There is a mod for the old Rome: Barbarian Invasion game called Fourth Age, which was based on that lore, I played it many times a decade or more ago. Worth looking at, if you want to see how you could do.
I purchased Peoples of Middle Earth just so I could read Tal-Elmar, It's such a fascinating story and told from the perspective of a culture that isn't on friendly terms with either the Dúnedain or the elves, which is something we very rarely get to see. One of my favorite one-off stories despite it's incompleteness.
Peoples of Middle-earth has a lot of great stuff. It's definitely the volume I use the most for my videos.
@@DarthGandalfYT Just watched your video on Tal-Elmar yesterday evening and I noticed something about the name which might help you to narrow down the people Elmar came from.
You see, "Elmar" is a somewhat rare-ish or oldfashioned (but not outlandish/ remarkable) name in Germany. And although used as a male name, it's ethymology isn't necessarily. It is composed from Old High German: "adal" meaning 'noble' and "mari", meaning 'famous'. Old High German is the oldest written form of German (not Germanic) and - scholarly - describes the language as it was spoken between 750 and 1050 (for more information about regional boundaries, etc. I suggest to look at wikipedia). What is to note is that it was by that time clearly different and distinct from Old English (where Tolkien derived the language of the Rohirrim from; as you most likely already know 🙂).
Now, I am not that deep into Tolkien lore and specifically how exactly he constructed the various languages. But maybe this bit of information can help you.
@@eugenebelford9087 That's actually super interesting. It probably isn't a coincidence, which would mean it's decent evidence in favour of Elmar originally being from a Northmen people.
@@DarthGandalfYT Well, this morning I found something which makes it even more intriguing - at least in terms of speculation/ fantasizing "what could have been?". You see, when digging up the ethymology, I stopped there and then. Today, out of curiousity I looked up the history/ biography of famous people bearing this name and pretty quickly stared at the stories of Count Elimar I and his son Elimar II. These are the founders of the noble house of Oldenburg - "comes in confinio Saxonie et Frisie potens et manens" which translates to: "powerful count living on the border between Saxony and Friesland".
And it doesn't stop there! You said he wrote the story in 1955. At this time, branches of this house ruled as Kings and Queens of Denmark and Norway (since the 1450s) plus a certain Prince Philip (another decendent of this house) had recently married Elisabeth II and welcomed a son - now known as Charles III.
Furthermore, during the reign of Elimar II, there was a military dispute with another noble house (Tecklenburg) over heridatory claims of his wife which ended up in an intermarriage.
I guess, what I want to say is: Maybe we are looking at a potential founding figure for later men-ish rulers of places like Dale or Dorwinion or non-Numenorian nobles in Anor?
I used (mostly) wikipedia to figure this out. Unfortunately for you, only the English version of Elimar I is as complete as the German one. On Elimar II (which is just a stub in English) you probably should have the German version translated for more detail.
Personally, I think that the cruel folk of the east were northmen rather than numenoreans, they are noted as carring weapons made by the demons of the mountains, I guess those are dwarves
I agree; Hazad also says that they hold three peoples as enemies: the wild men of the mountains/woods (Druedain?); the High Men of the Sea (Numenoreans?) and the Fell Folk of the East (relatives of the Northmen?). He also says that the Fell Folk were in wagons pushing towards the sea, which wouldn't fit the Numenoreans.
The eastern hills can be the Iron Hills
@@bearwoodian8607If you are right it might bee that the Note about Tal-elmar in Rhovanion meat that he was going to visit his mothers Folk ?
@@bearwoodian8607It could be that some disaster happened in the East, say the King (Sauron) attacked a Númenórean colony and there weren't enough ships, so some had to move west through lands.
The people of Agar were in the muster of the 'North King', whoever that is, it doesn't sound like the Northmen were their enemy if there was a North King that they served.
I immediately thought of dwarves too.
These people were presumably friends either of The Dwarves of The Iron Hills or the obscure dwarves of The East.
Great stuff. I love all of Tolkien but anything not in the late 3rd age is top of the list for me. Way better than the 4,337th Gandalf video on UA-cam.
Boss makes a dollar
I make a dime
That's why I watch Tolkien lore videos
On company time
Based
bruh where do you work where you make 10% what your boss makes, that's miles above me
@@levitatingoctahedron922 A magician never reveals his secrets (it's tax evasion)
Not based at all. Based would be working at a job you believe in, not somewhere you're just another load dragging society down.
@@joemerino3243 working at a job I believe in is a luxury few can afford. I will settle for a job that brings in enough money for me to invest with.
I think it's a real missed opportunity that the makers of The Rings of Power didn't base their series on Tal-Elmar - or at least, make it into one of the main threads. Here is authentic Tolkien, taking a different and even very modern perspective on the Númenórean colonisation of Middle-earth - that is, seeing it through the eyes of the inhabitants. You really don't have to make up nonsense about Gandalf arriving on a comet and being found by hobbits and the Elves needing mithril (made by a balrog and a Silmaril struck by lightning - or something) to stay alive while everyone is trying to guess which character is really Sauron, when we knew who it was all along. With Tal-Elmar you've got the perfect way of taking the viewer into the Second Age and with all the ramifications of the coming of the Númenóreans from a modern perspective. If I'd been the script editor of RoP, I would have even made the ships of the Númenóreans arriving in the Tal-Elmar story the very first scene of the series.
They could have replaced the Harfoots with Tal-Elmar, and even if everything else was the same the show would still be sooo much better. I want to like it, but at the same time AHHHHHHHH y'know? Lol
The problem is that the producers of TRoP don’t have the rights to anything from Unfinished Tales- they can really only pull from the supplementary material in LotR. *Most* of the plot weirdness of TRoP stems from the fact that they literally can’t actually depict the story of the Silmarillion directly on screen.
@@Pelhamfall right, which is why they should have avoided the whole storyline they are doing, and instead focused on the fall of Arnor, or anything in the third age really.
This is why I follow this channel instead of all the other LOTR channels. You find the actually obscure stuff I had no idea about instead of making the 47th video on the same stuff everyone knows.
Starts in the tall weeds and ends there, but enjoyable none-the-lest. And as said, notable for not being from the perspective of the good guys. One gets the feeling of men under the yoke.
My personal theory is that while Sauron was The King, that the Nazgûl were nominally lesser kings of a cardinal direction (plus the empire's centre). So the North King would have been a Ringwraith who led that army under Sauron's imperial banner.
Fascinating! It's fascnating how much stuff there is that barely gets talked about
That is really cool. I knew nothing about this story so will for sure get it read soon. I've always had an odd love for the general forgotten people that are vibing around Middle Earth just trying to get by day by day while these fantastical elves and powerful empires clash with orc hordes all around them so a story written from their point of view is super cool even if there was clearly some greater plan for Tal-Elmar, would have been cool to see him travel around a bit, slowly learning a bit more about the world which would give us a great view of how elves and men interacted with each other.
And I do like the idea of these 'Fell Folk' the thought of Tal-Elmar connecting with this part of him while still trying to care for and support the people of his homeland in some way would be really cool to see.
I love that you do niche Tolkien content! I’ve read all his main texts (including the three greater tales of the first age) but I’ve yet to read all 12 volumes of history of middle-earth, so I love learning about lesser known tales such as this!
Well, let's face it, the tale of Galadriel and Celeborn was of greater significance. Of course, he never really finished their story either. Today is Tolkien's birthday (he would have been 132) and I wonder if he was still alive and writing how many stories would remain incomplete. But I am eternally grateful for all we did get.
He would have beat Old Took, had he lived.
We'd probably have fifteen Unfinished Tales instead of just the one. But you're right, I'll take unfinished stories over nothing.
Depends on if he started writing for a living, or if it stayed something he did in his free time.
I’m in the love-the-video-never-heard-of-it group and want to say thanks for sharing! Glad the algorithm blessed me here. Instant sub!
I’ve never heard this story before! Keep the cool niche stuff coming, love your content!
this was REALLY interesting, thank you for covering something we haven't seen 12 videos on. :) and for your citations of the artists.
Fascinating! Had no idea. Here's what I think is happening in this story, context wise. (I do not pretend to be a profound Tolkien expert).
- The story transpires late-ish in the Second Age, after the Numenorian kings engage in extensive shipbuilding and settling. The split between the King's Men and Faithful has begun, but Sauron has not yet been captured and brought to Numenor. Isengard is not yet built. The exact date is unknown but the available range is pretty narrow.
- The protagonists are Hill-men. The live in close to a state of nature, or a war of all against all. Life is full of fear, darkness, and uncertainty. They live in a dark age, an age of decline. Their dark view of the Numenorians is foreshadowing; the temple of Morgoth with the sacrifices is not built yet but the Numenorians are on their way morally to becoming the people who will build it.
- The protagonists live in uplands, but not too far from the coast, between the mouth of the Isen and the Andrast cape, maybe near the northern slopes of the mountains that later will bound the future Gondor (not yet).
- The Numenorian settlement to the north is Vinyalonde, not that they know. To the south, it doesn't really matter what its name is, but probably something on the south facing coast of what will become Gondor (but is not yet).
- The protagonists don't travel far. It's not safe. They don't know their world well. (Then again, Sauron didn't know where the Shire was, did he?) Their near neighbors are Pukel-men, who we find still inhabit this area in the Third Age. The general level of impoverishment likely is a secondary result of the devastating past War of Elves and Sauron fought to the north. Actually, this area never develops.
- Tal-Elmar's grandmother was a Northwoman and a migrant captured in an ambush in the Gap of Rohan. Likely they were migrating to escape rule as described below or some sort of disorder elsewhere in a poorly controlled world. They are described as coming from the east because that's where the Gap of Rohan is relative to the protagonists' homes. They probably came down the Anduin and turned westward through the Gap. They might have been seeking Numenorian colonists to live near and feudally serve in exchange for feudal protection.
- The protagonists are pretty weak and might have been auxiliaries to a larger ambush who got lucky in the moment with loot. The context of the ambush is unclear but might have been opportunistic rather than historic.
- Neither the King's Men nor the Faithful are good colonists from the protagonists' perspective. Both the King's Men and the Faithful have come to conquer and to eliminate whatever is in their way. My guess is that the particular Numenorians in this story are among the Faithful (there are clues as to this) but that does not change their colonialist goal. The Numenorians clearly have a sense of superiority and entitlement: if these are the Faithful imagine the rapacity of the King's Men (this probably is what the father recalls).
- The distant and oppressive rulers referenced probably are men kings bearing Sauron's gifted rings (on their way to becoming Nazgul if not already). These kings live to the north, in what in the third age will become Arnor (but is not yet) or in the land damaged by the past War. In the Third Age Arnor's destruction by the Witch King (one of these kings) recalls this time featured in this story (same geography, a sort of restoration). We now see that one of the reason Sauron made these was so that he could project power and control consistently distantly, which in medieval Europe (which Middle Earth resembles) was a perennial problem.
- The main character will be adopted by the landed Numenorians, trained and educated, and will go on to have adventures and maybe lead, becoming one of them, as it were, and likely will be able to wreak revenge on his oppressors while saving his immediate family.
Hope this helps tie it together. I welcome someone with more knowledge to elaborate.
Tal-Elmar's poor mother - 17 sons! No wonder she is apparently dead by the time Tal-Elmar meets the Numenoreans.
I'm no mathematician, but the fact that she didn't get a single daughter either makes her the luckiest or the unluckiest person in existence depending on her perspective.
@@DarthGandalfYT unluckiest.
@@DarthGandalfYT Can't say which, but definitely strange.
Did his father have more than one wife?
@@richardlee653 doubtful, as Tolkien didn't mention it.
I think most anyone who owns history or middle earth had heard of this story already. But the way you added new context helped deepen my understanding of it. Thank you
Noe THIS would have been a cool starting point for a series set on the Second Age
An interesting tale. These fringe stories are good fun to ponder on
GREAT video, these videos sure do enlighten everyone to stories most of us have not heard. Keep doing them because it encourages people to go buy the books they are found within.
The more arcane the better. Great video.
Fantastic effort. This composition of digging deep through the material and delivering deserves recognition. 2:10 videobombed
hardcore fan here, was unaware of this story. clicked immediately.
When it comes to Tolkien's more fragmented works, there are Lost Tales and Really Lost Tales.
"Was this short story supposed to become something much greater? We will never know because Tolkien felt like he had to rewrite Galadriel and Celeborn a couple more times" - nice.
Wait, I think you mentioned this tale in your History of Rohan video (my favoutite video of yours, watched it multiple times lol)
We need more of this
I think you were definitely onto something here with this story. My guess is that Tolkien intended something big and dramatic with this story, with Tal-Elmar in particular.
It's prophecy coming to full form.
But from a different perspective that we were use to, compared with the other tales.
As always, great content!
Yes :D I have been waiting for this video for over a year.
I guess that the "King of the North" title refers not to Sauron, but to the Morgoth. Both his strongholds, Utumno and Angband were located in northern lands. Also, Sauron was known for instigating Morgoth's cults and sacrifices for him, like during the last days of Numenor.
Morgoth was gone by the Second Age.
To my mind there's no such thing as an unpopular Tolkien writing. I enjoyed the video, thanks.
I'm glad Tal-Elmar is getting more attention nowadays, it is one of his few tries to tell a story in the second age, the others are Agaldor the tliligh walker, the Öostbroad and the Notion club papers. Tal-Elmar would have been our window into the Second age, our POV character who wpuld make Numenor and everything second age more easily approachable.
Tolkien missed a great opportunity in doing a sequel to LOTR by focusing the sequel on the previously unknown far east of middle earth far away from Gondor and Eriador. A whole new saga based on the Avari, eastern dwarves, blue wizards and men who lived in the far east after the fall of Sauron. There was so much he could have done with that. Long thought dead Ungoliant could have arisen and been kind of like a new dark force in the far east of middle earth. The possibilities could have been endless.
You are kinda missing something though, remember that the whole story of the world (or rather middle-earth) came as a product of Tolkien's thought experiments with language. There was never much to the lands outside of middle-earth (that's what he called them, the Arda thing was a Christopher editorial choice), and he would had to come up with a whole history, development of language, of religion, of migration and settlement of people, etc for the far east, an undertaking of several decades.
who knows....Disney might take it up....
@@volpeverde6441 Disney? No thank you. Disney is just as woke as Amazon. I don’t want a middle earth with female lesbian trans queer, diverse people of color elves(I probably left out an alphabet or two).
@nole8923
calm down dear.... ( joke )
I wouldn't trust Disney to make a commercial....
without it containing their WOKE FILTH....
“For the less even as for the greater there is some deed that he may accomplish but once only; and in that deed his heart shall rest. It may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again can I make their like; and if I break them, I shall break my heart, and I shall be slain…” Feanor
Tolkien probably believed this wholeheartedly, LOTR was his Magnum Opus.
Very popular I am guessing, it is so obscure and lots of us like that kind of thing.
I always had in mind that Agar had to be near the location of what would become Osgiliath or even Anorien. We cannot assume the same North and East apply here, as from the perspective from the Men of the West, since this is from the persoective of the natives. The Great Northern King, could simply be a Mannish leader who had under his sway people living in the southern parts of Anduin, but he must have been called northern King because he resides to the north of Agar. While the Fell Folk from the East can be any force that attacked them from eastwards. Therefore it could also be the actual Northmen, or a branch of Northmen.
Since they were taller and fairer, they could have been Northmen. Plus the demons of the fiery hills could simply be the Dwarves (of the Iron Hills??) who supplied them with good quality weapons, which is justified since Tolkien says (Of Dwarves and Men) that there was an extensive mutually beneficial friendship between Northmen and Dwarves.
At least that's what I believe.
9:11 Perhaps a reference to Morgoth in the very early stages of the story which later became meaningless as the story was changed.
No Morgoth at this time.
Interesting video! I didn't know about this tidbit so thanks
The Northking might be Morgoth. The 'hearing [Sindarin] in his dreams' was probably from learning to talk with his mother, when 'Dad' wasn't around. After growing up, such talk would be negatively reinforced, leaving memories of uncertain origin.
Morgoth had been defeated by this time.
Cal-Elmar reminds me of Tom Bombadil.
Good idea for a video! Kudos. 🤗
Cheers never heard of this thanks
Personal theory is that the story of Tal-Elmar is an unfinished origin story of the Witch King
Sounds like when the Corded Ware (proto-Indo-Europeans) started moving west into Early European Farmer territory, but with Numenoreans.
Human babies are born able to mimic the rhythm & cadence of our mother-tongue, having hear it in the womb: we begin with the music, and pick up the Form of words and the Voids between as we go. Tal-Elmars ability to speak Sindarin, learned "in long dreams" [12:05], speaks to having a Sindar mother, and a Valar/Maia's memory of how all is sung into existence.
Thank you, that was really inteesting!
All is always interesting…thank you.
Speculation video on the last desert and Were-Worms, i like the Earliest Draft and the links to both the time Tolkien lived and a major myth of the East, Did you know he was 22 when the Qing Dynasty signed over rule to the peoples republic of China!!!
I doubt a communist government mostly ruled china after the xinhai revolution
The most strange tale of Tolkien's that never existed was Bara-Bagronk, a love poem by an orch to his wife. No such story ever existed. There is never ever any hint whatsoever that orchs married. Or wrote.
It's possible that Tolkien just didn't have any more of the story. Sometimes you get a great idea, you start writing, you're going along, and then... that's it. There's no more. It can happen at the end of an arc or in the middle of a sentence. You try to find more but it's just not there. Writers have these all the time, ideas that just don't pan out. We have no more because there was no more.
Good video. It makes me wonder if there is a relationship between Tar-Elmer’s people and the ghosts of Dunharrow.
Thanks for another look at some of the more obscure stories of Middle-earth.
Great content brother
I have myself wondering that Elmar may be a Northman (Northwoman?). That doesn't explain why Tal Elmar was able to understand Sindarin, though. Perhaps Elmar is supposed to have been Half-elven? It's outlandish, but this story is so strange that I find myself considering it! :D
But were the Numenoreans speaking Sindarin? Or were they speaking heir own language, Adûnaic, that later becomes Westron or the Common Speach? It was related to the languages of the Northmen (especially those that were relatives to the House of Hador).
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ That's a good point - if the Númenoreans were speaking any Elvish language, it would be Quenya.
@@АнтонОрлов-я1ъ Apparently the Faithful still used Sindarin alongside Adunaic.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul They did, but since there is no reason for Tal-Elmar to know Sindarin it is reasonable to assume that Numenorean language here is Adunaic.
Lord DarthGandolf could you please do a video on the War of Dwarves & Dragons ? I did not see it in your Wars of Middle Earth series
The fell-folk of the east could also be northmen
Great video!
Ah, getting into the niche bits of Tolkien's work? I can dig it.
Curious, do you think you might want to cover Farmer Giles of Ham sometime?
Unfortunately, I think Farmer Giles of Ham is outside my area of expertise.
@@DarthGandalfYTFair enough, though even if you never have it on your channel, never let fear of the odd blunderbuss stop you from enjoying it my good sir.
4:48 If it's in the late Second Age, it certainly does.
7:59 It's said to have been a small harbour, maybe that was still the case and thus men and elves avoided each others ?
I love and hate that Tolkien was such a perfectioniste. He made so many great stories that he never finished.
8:55 Why ? I'm not sure to see what connect the two.
I haven't read _Lord of the Rings_ in almost 20 years. I pulled down my red leather bound edition the other day and started reading. Damn what an engrossing book.
Silmarillian captured me. The most beautiful telling of creation I've ever read. The song of the Ainur
This is amazing. I wish we knew more about peoples like them. The story seems to grant a ton of nuance to the "evil humans", which LOTR for example only hinted at (with Samwise's comments about the dead Haradrim soldier). It seems also surprisingly anti-colonial. I really wish Tolkien had expanded on this. Or maybe a capable writer can pick up on this story and expand on it in a non-canon way.
The name "Hazad Longbeard" reminds us of the Dwarves. They were the "Khazad" and "Longbeards" (obviously Tolkien's reworking of the name of the Germanic Longobards' tribe of Late Antiquity) was the name of Thorin's clan in "The Hobbit". So, here we have onother occurence of Tolkien's constant play with names.
"The New Shadow" is almost Lovecraftanian...
Wouldn’t the “North King” be the “Witch-King of Angmar,” the First of the Nine, “Lord of the Nazgul”?
didn't exist yet, the title or angmar
If well made, this story would be excellent for a one season TV series or movie trilogy.
I wonder what the Orcs did in 4 age and what of the Eastern Orcs? Also there skirmishes and wars in Eriador?
what's the game you're using for some of the imagery? It looks PS2-era-ish but then it looks like an early PC MMO like Everquest or even a bit like Elder Scrolls Oblivion with those open fields, but the NPC models and interior shots just are not up to that quality :P
Great content btw, I do love a good Tolkien lore channel! Subscribed!
Lord of the Rings Online, which first came out in 2007. I think the landscapes still look great by MMO standards, but character models definitely haven't aged as well.
2:18 the story is set sometime in the late Second Age
4:44 we don't know when the story is set
I like to think that Tal-Elmar ended up becoming the king who founded Dorwinion. That could make for an interesting story.
I think that them referring to Sauron as 'King of the North' might be because they actually don't know Morgoth was defeated. These people didn't see the War of Wrath, and who is going to tell them, Sauron? Why would he do that? It's more likely he'd just go on pretending to be Morgoth to keep people in line, acting like it's business as usual and nothing has changed.
From the title alone the first thing to come to my mind was just a taller Elmer Fudd.
There's another meaning for Fell, which simply means rocky hill.
In ancient times maps were *oriented* with the east at the top, south was on the right, north was on the left. The north was associated with darkness, evil, and monsters. This is why the word "sinister", Latin for "left", means evil in English. And anyway this is why Sauron was called the North King.
For a map that is "orientated" in this old way, see Thráin's map in the Hobbit.
So the sun starts on top and moves downward? Kind of makes sense. So when did north become top?
@@justachannel8600 Maps rotated 90 degrees once magnetic compasses became common enough.
Could "North King" be Gil-Galad?
yup, never herd this covered before! niche
Tall and Blonde people coming from the East? Sounds like the ancestors of the Rohirrim to me...
Interesting theory! Especially with their discription of using wagons and chariots, which historically eventually evolved into cavalry.
@@KaiHung-wv3ul thanks. 😀
I just figured it was more likely Northmen/Middlemen than lost Numenorians, coming from that direction - the Numenorians were seafarers and had no reason to be over there really yet, and they came from the south at the end of the story and were *not* linked to the others by the locals so they couldn't have looked too similar.
-
The Rohirrim are the only major people who are famed for blonde hair, and their ancestors had to come from somewhere, though these could maybe also have been the ancestors of the Northmen of Rhovanion that Eldacar's mother came from IF they too were blonde, but I can't find a physical description anywhere of them...
EDIT: apparently the Rohirrim claimed kinship with Gondor THROUGH these people, so I guess they are related, so ancestors of one would be ancestors of both groups.
I read both Tal-Elmar and The New Shadow years ago when they were first published. I don't think they are strange at all. Tal-Elmar takes the pov of the non-Numenoreans. Why is that "strange"? It demonstrates Tolkien's gifts as a creator of worlds. Same for The New Shadow.
Thank you!
Very saddened that we will never know how this story ends 😔
Wouldn't the North King be the Witch King of Angmar, but not yet king of Angmar, of course? He was the cheif of the Nazgul who might easily have been at large if we assume the story happena after S. A. 2251
Why did Gondor beat the Haradrim easy but struggled against the Easterlings ?
Same reason Rome could conquer Egypt but not Parthia perhaps, and why Napoleon failed in Russia. The "East" just keeps going.
The Blue Wizards.
potentially
Part of the Numenor story seems like Tolkiens oblique commentary on British imperialism.
Interesting that Tolkien seems to be grappling with some of the more pro-Imperialist undertones of his work. Acknowledging that people were conquered and violently displaced by the "good guys" would have added something to the larger canon
personally, Tolkien was devouted anti-imperialist and anti-colonialist, many of his letters reveal that. This is because local identity (language, traditions, connection to the landscape, earth) was what he valued the most, so he hated globalisation, before that word was even invented.
The political system of Agar, ruled by a presumably elected master, resembles Lake - town in The Hobbit.
And Mogru seems like an even more unpleasant version of the earlier character.
A truly fascinating story - seems like there was a lot more nuance than the Lord of the RIngs, with even the Faithful getting a bit of criticism for their lack of regard for the rights of the Men of Middle Earth to their own land. Seems like Tolkien had an interesting idea with this one, too bad he never finished it.
This kind of sounds like Tolkien’s answer to those weird, rando Bible stories that don’t seem to fit-like Balaam and his donkey.
It is known that the tribes of men of the South (Corsairs etc.) and East (Easterlings) came under the sway of The Shadow in the early ages after the Dawning of Men. Being thus in Shadow they never came into contact with the Elvin Folk and other folk of Middle Earth. Folk far more familiar with the truer nature of Ea. This is why the Men of the South (Corsairs etc) were the enemies of Elves and the Descedants of the Numernoreans and the Peoples of Gondor, Rohan and Arnor: They were deceived and fell away from the knowledge of Eru and Aman.
Thanks!
I'm feeling a little "Jacob and his 12 sons" vibe here with Tal-Elmar being the Joseph stand-in. I'm thinking Tal-Elmar would be enslaved/taken into service by the Numenoreans thanks to his sudden ability to know their language and the "long dreams" similar to Joseph's ability to see visions of the future. Hell aren't Numenoreans supposed to be inspired by ancient Egyptians too? Who knows? Maybe Tal-Elmar successfully averts disaster for the Numenoreans with his long dreams and becomes successful and honored in Numenor and at the end after Agar's downfall he sees his elderly father and brothers and takes them into Numenor. Consequently the Jewish descendants in that story would later flee during Exodus and establish the Kingdom of Israel.
I think Tolkien abandoned that story since it was too on-the-nose. Then again I might just be reaching.😅
It's an interesting thought.
Please don't mention Jews into beautiful Tolkien's lore. They immediately would want money from whatever whoever bc they only pretend to be victims all the time. They are greedy af.
If I have not heard of it, then you made it up.
Tal-Elmar is an anagram for alt realm
I don’t think you know what an anagram is…
@@randomelite4562 noun - a word, phrase, or name formed by rearranging the letters of another word, phrase or name - per the Oxford Dictionary
@@nell6913 So where does T in alt realm come from?
@@randomelite4562 TAL = ALT
@@nell6913 I am beyond stupid
Please cover Roverrandom
Make a video about Turambar and the Foalókë
If these Numenoreans speak an elf-tongue, Sindarin, doesn’t that suggest that they are among “The Faithful,” and still worship the Valar (not death or Morgoth) and are friends of the Elves? The King’s Men--under Sauron’s influence--wouldn’t speak an elf language (even if it’s not the Quenya of the High Elves/Noldor). I’m confused.
That's exactly it. The Numenoreans that Tal-Elmar meets are Faithful, but the people of Agar probably don't know the difference between them and the King's Men. To them, they're all the same, and to be fair, both King's Men and Faithful were imperialists.
Make a video about the new shadow.
This certainly was interesting, 😊no I haven’t heard of this one