I don't like AI art either, but what does it matter if he uses it?? Movieflame gets this backlash too even though he has explained that he got screwed over by artists he bought art from. A few issued copyright strikes against his channel and tried to blackmail him, so he doesn't want to deal with real artists anymore. So if they want to use AI art to avoid that then let them and stop complaining about it 🙄
I enjoyed the first episode and how they handled the Blood & Cheese events on screen. Books don’t always translate well to screen. People have to remember that in order for that scene to play out like the books and exactly how they want, the producers would actually need to have extremely young actors (between the ages of 3-5) act the scene out. And I just don’t think actors so young could make that scene believable or believably portray how it hurt Maelor afterwards since his mom picked him over Jaehaerys. Using young actors can result in cringe and unconvincing acting. It’s why the Dune 2 writers changed Jessica’s daughter from a toddler to a fetus. Which Dune readers were also upset about. Sometimes things have to be amended on screen for audiences. We understand Helaena’s motives here better too. There are likely several reasons why the show runners had it play out this way. I’m also surprised that a few fans are saying nothing happened in this episode. SO MUCH character development was dripping from literally EVERY line of dialogue and I’m kinda pissed that some people are overlooking that and don’t see how genius each moment was just because there was little violence or immediate major conflicts.
The way these shows have to be filmed and written these days - they’re not really put together to be watched on a week by week basis; it makes sense from a marketing standpoint, but this isn’t The Sopranos, most planting and payoff will span the 50-minute mark and you have to rely on charisma to make it there , esp. for the way GRRM layers a story together. Episode one probably suffered from having to spend a lot of time with team Green, despite *all* work done with Viserys, Daemon & Rhaenyra season one - the audience just isn’t *at home* in King’s Landing yet with the king gone, but expect people to warm up to Aegon in episode or two; he’s kind of the only innocent in the room for the time being. But as the war picks up, and there are more pieces to play with, I’ll think it’ll be a lot easy for people
The scene could easily have been closer to the books without the need for very young actors to act well. We don't need to see Maelor being hurt from his mothers choice, the act from Blood and Cheese along with the horror instilled in Helaena is plenty. I think the complaint wanting to have it closer to the books is valid, because the trauma it inflicts in Helaena is greater than what we got. It also changes how despicable Blood and Cheese were. I was fine with the changes, but I think they fumbled a bit with the questioning whether she had pointed to the boy or not. Her pointing loses its purpose, if not for the trick coming afterwards.
I loved the actor they chose for cheese, didn’t feel like blood was a good casting, I had hoped the scene would have been more “brutal” but I genuinely liked how they portrayed Helena and how she went into the queens room
@@Bronzescorpion I think you missed the meaning behind she pointing Jaehaerys. She's a Cassandra character, she can see the future but is not believed. Cheese was the first person to actually look at her, understand her and believe her. And also... she pointed Jaehaerys, expecting them to kill Jaehaera, she made a choice. It made even more tragic for her than in the books. The books is a cliché of "Choose a loved one to die", the show played into her psych much more. Yes... the scene is more simplistic, there's no kidnaping of Alicent... but I think it was because them the scene would extend too much. Also it would need to be stablished beforehand that Helaena goes visit Alicent every night. That Alicent stays in the hands tower. Also it raise questions like, "Wait, she's fucking Cole while her Otto sleeps in the next room to her?" In a book you can simply says "They waited for Helaena at the hands towers because she went there every day at dusk". In a TV show you 25 minutes to stablish something like this. You can't just tell people. You'll need to show Helaena doing that in the course of a few days... making the pattern clear for the viewers.
@@MateusAntonioBittencourt I highly doubt that was what they were going for. Most people would miss that and I think you are over analysing. Furthermore she isn't truly a Cassandra character, it is not that others don't believe her, most of her prophecies are cryptic, it is not that people don't listen or don't believe her, she simply isn't understood. It is in no way more tragic for her here. She can't look at Maelor afterwards in the books, because she knew she condemned him. I really think you are reaching here, especially as all her prophecies has been cryptic before and that is the reason she isn't understood. With Blood and Cheese, not only isn't it a prophecy, it isn't vague or cryptic. The two things are too different to be connected. Furthermore, she has been right all the time, so it would be incredible stupid of her to believe that the opposite would happen, because people don't believe her. This of course also would mean that she would be able to change the future due to her actions, which isn't something that has been established previously. She can see it, but she can't change it.
I have not watched one of your videos for roughly a year Robert. It’s purely because I learned every single thing about Tolkien’s Legendarium and I stopped watching YT videos. However, this new House of the Dragon series has rekindled my interest in your channel and I’ve been on a marathon lately for all the videos I’ve missed. I’m really enjoying watching the channel again and I won’t be taking any breaks anytime soon! Great work as usual.
Great vid as always IDG. Blood and Cheese is truly a horrific tragic heart-wrenching incident (even more so with the textual version with all the extra elements at play there). And well put , you've highlighted one of my favorite aspects of GRRM's writing , those layers of echoes literally and symbolically across various eras within his ASoIaF universe. In this case the various echoes with Maegor's secret tunnels , rats , rat-catchers , cats etc and the symbolism and impact(s) each have had across various generations. GRRM does those generational echoes so prolifically and so well ; really takes at least my interest to another level. Just super impressive how well GRRM uses such techniques & devices and especially with more re-reads and scrutiny come to see how often he employs them across ASoIaF & its histories.
I just remember Arya’s chapter when she was going through the tunnel in kings landing following that black cat. So much insight on something had a clue. Awesome video!
I avoided reading about blood and cheese, I just knew it was significant. I was still underwhelmed by the way the show portrayed it. A lack of visual horror wouldn’t be bad on its own but there was no tension and the dialogue was not the best which ruined it for me.
Show Blood and Cheese just did NOT have the same impact as the book. They dropped the ball a bit in my opinion...Still a good episode, but not one of my favorites.
As a non-book reader, it just felt so random and clunky… the whole sequence didn’t feel like it had much weight to it. I felt vaguely confused throughout the entire thing.
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy That may be in the history book but not what really happened, just a lie to save face. Or, even if it is true, he could already have children.
The way they handled this scene has made me very worried for the show going forward. George just had a blog post about them never 'make it their own and make it better' ... wonder now if this was him throwing barbs at the show far enough out so as not have people connect the two. Ryan Condal said "it's because so much happens, we didn't have time to show Maelor so we had to cut him" like mate... you didn't introduce any of the kids, their names were said once in season 1 and then Jaharyes had a tiny bit of screen time to make it know he was the kings heir, just put three kids there in season 1 and say their names.... it takes literally 2 seconds.
George did say that he really liked ep1 and ep2 back when he visited the sets. Obviously you could say that it's just George doing some marketing, but he did seem to be pleased with the episodes. OR MAYBE, they shot different versions of blood and cheese and George watched the book accurate version... jk
I personally believe they dropped the ball on Blood and Cheese in the first episode of season 2. Had someone watching with me and they didn’t really react that much when the kid was killed 😅
It's not that I WANT to see it, but for the sake of impact on the viewer and understanding how horrible of an act this was, they needed to show a screaming kid picked up by the hair, Struggling in the air, and his head getting straight up cut off. Its harsh, but necessary to invoke the shock and horror that went through my head while experiencing the book.
I have heard many accounts of child actors and young actors being lifelong traumatised by scenes they were involved in in horror movies and what the directors made or allowed them to see. I wonder if this is a factor in the decision to not directly involve the children in a scene like you discribe. Personally, If child torture and decapitation is the future of television, for the 'shock and impact' (entertainment) of the masses, we are going the way of the Roman Empire.
@@victoriagill1588 Thank you. We already know what kind of awful has happened, we shouldn't need to see it to be shocked by it and feel bad about it. If people truly *need* to see the awful thing taking place (even if it's acted out), imo it shows that those people got so numbed by all the horror we see in movies/TV shows they can't relate to characters suffering without shock and gore. It's almost like they've stopped thinking and feeling on their own, and are waiting for medias to tell them how they should react. We really don't need to see such a shocking scene to know how shocking and awful it is. And we certainly do not need to force little kids to act those scenes out and traumatise them. Heck, even adults get traumatised when playing the roles of deeply twisted, awful characters over and over and they're supposed to be able to clearly differentiate between fiction and reality. It'd be so much more awful for children...
Lol last evening when i saw the title i skipped the video without checking the channel name! I thought YT is suggesting me a video on coucher practice 😂
I didn’t mind the TV version, I don’t want to see a child getting his head cut off. I do think the Sophie’s choice aspect would have made a better scene. However, Robert did say something I always wonder since reading FnB. Did Blood and cheese always intend to kill Jahaeharys or were they always planning on destroying Helana mentally and killing the opposite son either way.
They didn't actually have to show the kid being decaptiated. They could have implied it, then cut away to Helaena's reaction as the child died, or depicted the death by showing the shadow on the wall of the swing of the sword. They did something similar in GoT season 2 when Janos Slynt killed Barra, Robert Baratheon's illegitimate daughter in the brothel. It showed him approach the infant with a knife, then cut away to the mother's reaction.
The show version sucked. Period. And no, it's not because I wanted to see a 5year old boy's head getting lopped off. It's because "Which one is the boy?" is SIGNIFICANTLY less impactful than "Which one do you want to die?" and the implications of the latter were also much more meaningful. They took the core element that made this scene so powerful and flushed it down the drain. Now it's just a mediocre "meh" scene that invokes zero emotion, because we were not attached to any of the characters involved. Most certainly not the "Second Red Wedding scene" as they marketed it. It was a huge letdown for me.
Same bro, and I hyped this up to my friends as Red Wedding 2.0 so now I look kinda stupid. They missed what made the scene impactful. However they are really going for that comedy of errors thing
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Honestly. The fact that the entire war has been reduced to accidents and misunderstandings is absolutely ridiculous. Ruins the whole thing.
@@HouseTargaryen24601 I think it makes sense with certain things (such as Aemond/Vhaegar killing Lucerys/Arrax being an accident), but they're definitely getting carried away with the whole misunderstanding bs.
I felt underwhelmed at first. But now, after sitting with it for a bit, I think it holds up. Regardless of whether Helaena has to choose between "two sons" or a "daughter or son," it's horrific either way. She'll still be traumatized and still feel guilt at literally choosing the death of her child. Yes, Blood/Cheese forced her, but the fact remains. She did the best she could in that situation, safeguarding at least one of her children. But the fearful, painful, and gruesome death of her child will stay with her forever. And she did react.. She knew her premonition was coming true. Maybe it was precisely this, like deja-vu. Or maybe it's hazy visuals/words she perceives. Or maybe it was more metaphorical. We've seen her premonitions be literal ("He'll have to lose an eye") and metaphorical. The worst thing about them is not knowing a premonition means. Only in hindsight do the words/connections make perfect sense. Can you imagine receiving vague fragmentary bits of inconsequential moments AND serious life-changing ones? Every single premonition has the potential to be something awful, but you don't know until it comes true. It's not an easy thing to live with. I'm not surprised Helaena comes across as "loopy." Anyone would be, with an ability like that but no way to stop any of it....and everyone around you thinking you're touched in the head. When Helaena turned her focus away from Jaehaerys (fighting her instinct to protect him) and quickly scooped up Jaehaera and fled the room, it felt authentic. She had no assurance that Blood/Cheese wouldn't change their mind and kill Jaehaera and herself at any time. She focused on saving Jaehaera, put one foot in front of the other, stared straight ahead, and hoped. It's like Robot Protector Mom survival mode. You do what you have to do. Besides, the muffled sounds of Jaehaerys with all the subsequent sickly hacking sounds is more haunting than anything. Helaena didn't need to see it, just as we don't. We're experiencing it from her POV (just as we experienced Aemma's lethal C-section primarily from her POV, focusing on her face and the hands holding her in place, and her screams.....rather than the gore itself). I'm curious how she'll be portrayed for the rest of the show, after this experience.. I don't know
Wow did I get this wrong... the only "Blood and Cheese" incident that I was aware of (and was actually expecting to find here) was the one in Acquisitions Incorporated Live PAX east 2019. don't get mad at me. I just got off of work it's 90+ F out there, and the warehouse has NO AC in it.
The scene was unnecessarily changed from the books. There are many things that don't work: - Cheese is comically evil, almost out of a comedy - Daemon getting in KL himself, when he could have sent, say, Mysaria (I mean, what's the point of changing HER story?) - The story being told from the killers' point of view is not ridiculous, and lacks the shock value it had in the books Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the show way more than the book, but this scene was perfect for the screen just as it was in the source material.
Blood and Cheese in the book threatened to rape Jahaera if they Helaena didn't hurry up and choose! I understand In Deep Geek likely didn't want to be demonetized though!
I'm all for it. Would've been nice to end the original series (since they already botched it..) with a final shot of Ser Pounce sitting on the melted Iron Throne, one leg up in the air, rear exposed to the camera, licking himself and making eye contact with the camera. And not the curious innocent expression cats sometimes have, but the one that makes you think: "Is this cat truly hating me right now or is it just thinking I'm a worthless piece of s#&$?" LOL
It's such a shame what HotD did with this epic little tale that is just a small part of the bigger story of the Dance of the dragons but one that drives quite a few characters in their motivations. Firstly the whole thing about cutting the youngest son and instead making the "dilemma" about which kid the boy is totally breaks the illusion as the solution to that problem is so obvious it's even pointed out in the sequence. (The age gap between the two kids should easily have given away the truth as well but whatever). This honestly just unnecessary change robbed the scene of it's sadistic twist and with that of a lot of it's impact. Worse yet more impact is lost when Alisan Hightower after this still negotiates with Rehnyra (idk how to spell that name 😂) when this incident should have driven her over the edge in terms of her willingness to negotiate. (Same with Luces death lacking impact on R. as she seemingly ignores it for the sake of her "I'm the good queen thinking of the realm as a whole and the fight against the night king" arc. Which is a good arc but does undermine some of the emotional impact of certain story beats) In short they had a scene that could have been shocking, yet memorable like the red wedding. Instead they have a scene that I can only describe as mediocre with shockingly little impact on the characters except King Aegon (his reaction is actually a great change and I love that they put some focus on him with this and how it drives him)
I believe Arya will indeed use the cats in an assassination plot, but much like Blood and Cheese will kill the wrong person. It seems likely that instead of Cersei, Arya will kill either Tommen or Myrcella in Winds.
UNLIKELY for a cat to assassinate someone, but Not Impossible. Especially with Arya. Now who could she kill by the time she gets back to Westeros, with the Lannisters likely long gone?
Before I watch, can someone help clarify what exactly he means by spoilers? Does this mean spoilers for the rest of the show’s plot, or just for those that haven’t seen episode 1?
Robert talks about the books quite a bit in his videos… which the show is ultimately based on. Therefore, if you are show only and haven’t read the books, odds are you might hear something that will happen in the future of the show.
Mainly episode 1. He goes on to talk about how this act affected minor things that had an effect on the original Game of Thrones, such as Aya chasing cats. You only get minor spoils for the current series.
Episode 1 stuff, GoT predictions and spoilers, and some stuff in the rest of season 2 that you could probably forsee (e.g. the greens being angry and looking for the culprit)
Jack Russell Terriers are good at ratting and it’s impossible for skin changers to turn into one. They would be easily spotted because they wouldn’t be able to be as hyper as a real Jack Russell 😂
So we have on Team Black a Princess who broke her vows and spawned a horde of bastards and a prince who murdered his wife, then disposed of his niece's husband so he could marry her instead. All while having children slaughtered. Why does our Bob say that Team Green is full of horrible people when it is the blacks who are the true evil and who have no claim to the throne?
Isn´t "prince" deamon technically king deamon from the blacks perspective since he is married to the queen? like, helena is the "queen" too, since she is married to the king
IMO. The change between the show and book is deliberate. The book is an account written after the fact by biased writers. The show is kinda meant to be the “true” account in contrast to the book. The book is an account written after events to make the Greens seem more sympathetic to history. Which makes sense. The assassins are lowborn thugs. They’re not the sort capable of such a dramatic and over the top demand of the queen as revenge. It’s too “perfect” and dramatic to be a real event. This is of course unsatisfying to watch but it is a very GRRM thing to do.
The more I think about this… Alicent will need an alibi for boinking CC… therefore, she may take up the Drama Queen title and state that she was there and add some of the choice context for color… who knows.
Ehhh, that doesn't really make up for how the show robbed one of the most iconic scenes in the ASoIaF world of most of its drama and power. It also isn't really clear that that was their intention. It seemed more that they didn't want to put something so brutal on TV, which is a dumb reason to cut out such a powerful moment, imo. It also lacked logic, so it's bad writing regardless. They ruined something that could have been a highlight of the entire show.
@@j-rey- oh I don’t disagree. It was a loss for the show. I just think that might be the justification. GRRM seems to forget he’s writing fantasy and not history, a little drama is good for the audience.
I'm not gonna lie, I really hate this take that the show is meant to be “the true accounting of events.” The only people really believing this and espousing it are people who are show only, you can not come to terms with a so-called “true accounting” being unable to even get the number of kids the King and Queen have right.
Step one: make a keep to defend against hostile intrusion. Step two: make a prison beneath it to hold prisoners. Step three: make plenty of unguarded secret tunnels connecting them to the outside allowing people to just walk in and out without anyone knowing. ... Wait, what? What clownery is this? Lol. Dumb AF.
In my opinion, there are 4 key elements missing in the TV version of the events that we just saw. Firstly, Alicent - they've already shown her relationship with Criston Cole in the beginning, why need for that again? Secondly, Helaena just runs off, they didn't tie her up or even watch her. I guess it takes two grown men to murder a small child. She just casually walks off and can alert somebody, guards or her mother - what was that? Also Where were the guards? Her reaction was off to, given she's about to lose her oldest son, the heir, and even if she saw that in a dream, she did not scream or shed more than couple of tears. Thirdly, where is Maelor? He's crucial later in the story, so omitting him now and making Helaena choose between a son and a daughter also wasn't a necessary change. And lastly, I didn't like how Aemond was the prime target, and they didn't even try to find him. I get that they wanted to make Deamon's words unspoken, but it was done in a weird way. Killing Aemond would affect a coming war hugely, as one of the military commanders, and he just casually goes "eh, whatever, spent 5 seconds looking for him, and he's not there, kill other prince then". In was one of the lowest point so far in the show for me, and transition of events from the book to screen was done poorly this time, Season 8 of GoT style. Pity.
Imo they took a ‘oh shit’ moment like when Luke got killed, to a ‘huh, that’s crazy’ moment. Like it’s supposed to the the first blood on the green’s side and they bookend it with Alicent getting loose.
The weird prophetic girl had the choice to decide and she still told them which was the boy. She thought about that for a reason. Something’s gonna happen. I didn’t read the books so no one ruin it for me if I’m right
The whole of season 1 and the first episode of Season 2 of House Of Dragon, so far, is better than the entire 8 seasons of Game Of Thrones combined. I'm calling it.
As someone who has not rear the book, I felt I had to stop at 8:00 to avoid any potential spoilers. Maybe worthwhile adding a spoiler warning somewhere?
Eh…I dunno. It was gruesome still no matter what. I felt like my brain was assaulted by sound watching the show versus the dread and disgust I felt when I read the Blood and Cheese story. Do I think the book version would be something never forgotten on tv? Sure. I’m honestly not sure I could actually watch it on screen. I mean a kid’s head getting lopped right off is pretty hard…and how logistically do they pull it off?
UNLIKELY for a cat to assassinate someone, but Not Impossible. Especially with Arya. Now who could she kill by the time she gets back to Westeros, with the Lannisters likely long gone?
We most definitely need the deep dive of cats of ice and fire please.
This. Looking at the important issues.
Yess please!
I fully support this
See Pouce is Azor Ahai
It was cool how HOTD showed Cheese and his dog in the background a few times throughout the episode.
Very happy you have cut back, if not entirely eliminated, the A.I. art. Thank you Robert!
Yeah it's good, I really dislike AI art, it's just bad and creepy, in addition to LLMs being produced entirely on pirated and stolen content.
It feels like those fake lore channels that get all the facts wrong so yeah agreed
1:32
I don't like AI art either, but what does it matter if he uses it?? Movieflame gets this backlash too even though he has explained that he got screwed over by artists he bought art from. A few issued copyright strikes against his channel and tried to blackmail him, so he doesn't want to deal with real artists anymore. So if they want to use AI art to avoid that then let them and stop complaining about it 🙄
Connecting the rats and the cats was always part of my understanding of Westorosi history. Seeing Blood kick the hound seemed like fine symbolism.
It was Cheese who kicked the poor dog.
I enjoyed the first episode and how they handled the Blood & Cheese events on screen. Books don’t always translate well to screen. People have to remember that in order for that scene to play out like the books and exactly how they want, the producers would actually need to have extremely young actors (between the ages of 3-5) act the scene out. And I just don’t think actors so young could make that scene believable or believably portray how it hurt Maelor afterwards since his mom picked him over Jaehaerys. Using young actors can result in cringe and unconvincing acting. It’s why the Dune 2 writers changed Jessica’s daughter from a toddler to a fetus. Which Dune readers were also upset about. Sometimes things have to be amended on screen for audiences. We understand Helaena’s motives here better too. There are likely several reasons why the show runners had it play out this way. I’m also surprised that a few fans are saying nothing happened in this episode. SO MUCH character development was dripping from literally EVERY line of dialogue and I’m kinda pissed that some people are overlooking that and don’t see how genius each moment was just because there was little violence or immediate major conflicts.
The way these shows have to be filmed and written these days - they’re not really put together to be watched on a week by week basis; it makes sense from a marketing standpoint,
but this isn’t The Sopranos, most planting and payoff will span the 50-minute mark and you have to rely on charisma to make it there , esp. for the way GRRM layers a story together. Episode one probably suffered from having to spend a lot of time with team Green, despite *all* work done with Viserys, Daemon & Rhaenyra season one - the audience just isn’t *at home* in King’s Landing yet with the king gone, but expect people to warm up to Aegon in episode or two; he’s kind of the only innocent in the room for the time being. But as the war picks up, and there are more pieces to play with, I’ll think it’ll be a lot easy for people
The scene could easily have been closer to the books without the need for very young actors to act well. We don't need to see Maelor being hurt from his mothers choice, the act from Blood and Cheese along with the horror instilled in Helaena is plenty.
I think the complaint wanting to have it closer to the books is valid, because the trauma it inflicts in Helaena is greater than what we got. It also changes how despicable Blood and Cheese were.
I was fine with the changes, but I think they fumbled a bit with the questioning whether she had pointed to the boy or not. Her pointing loses its purpose, if not for the trick coming afterwards.
I loved the actor they chose for cheese, didn’t feel like blood was a good casting, I had hoped the scene would have been more “brutal” but I genuinely liked how they portrayed Helena and how she went into the queens room
@@Bronzescorpion I think you missed the meaning behind she pointing Jaehaerys. She's a Cassandra character, she can see the future but is not believed. Cheese was the first person to actually look at her, understand her and believe her. And also... she pointed Jaehaerys, expecting them to kill Jaehaera, she made a choice.
It made even more tragic for her than in the books. The books is a cliché of "Choose a loved one to die", the show played into her psych much more.
Yes... the scene is more simplistic, there's no kidnaping of Alicent... but I think it was because them the scene would extend too much. Also it would need to be stablished beforehand that Helaena goes visit Alicent every night. That Alicent stays in the hands tower. Also it raise questions like, "Wait, she's fucking Cole while her Otto sleeps in the next room to her?"
In a book you can simply says "They waited for Helaena at the hands towers because she went there every day at dusk". In a TV show you 25 minutes to stablish something like this. You can't just tell people. You'll need to show Helaena doing that in the course of a few days... making the pattern clear for the viewers.
@@MateusAntonioBittencourt I highly doubt that was what they were going for. Most people would miss that and I think you are over analysing.
Furthermore she isn't truly a Cassandra character, it is not that others don't believe her, most of her prophecies are cryptic, it is not that people don't listen or don't believe her, she simply isn't understood.
It is in no way more tragic for her here. She can't look at Maelor afterwards in the books, because she knew she condemned him.
I really think you are reaching here, especially as all her prophecies has been cryptic before and that is the reason she isn't understood. With Blood and Cheese, not only isn't it a prophecy, it isn't vague or cryptic. The two things are too different to be connected.
Furthermore, she has been right all the time, so it would be incredible stupid of her to believe that the opposite would happen, because people don't believe her. This of course also would mean that she would be able to change the future due to her actions, which isn't something that has been established previously. She can see it, but she can't change it.
I have not watched one of your videos for roughly a year Robert. It’s purely because I learned every single thing about Tolkien’s Legendarium and I stopped watching YT videos. However, this new House of the Dragon series has rekindled my interest in your channel and I’ve been on a marathon lately for all the videos I’ve missed. I’m really enjoying watching the channel again and I won’t be taking any breaks anytime soon! Great work as usual.
So THAT’S how Arya will sneak into the Red Keep at the end of the series …she’ll skinchange a cat and learn the way inside the tunnels
Balerion the black cat will rise again!
@@PiscatorLagergot to be Ser Pounce 😅
Great vid as always IDG. Blood and Cheese is truly a horrific tragic heart-wrenching incident (even more so with the textual version with all the extra elements at play there). And well put , you've highlighted one of my favorite aspects of GRRM's writing , those layers of echoes literally and symbolically across various eras within his ASoIaF universe. In this case the various echoes with Maegor's secret tunnels , rats , rat-catchers , cats etc and the symbolism and impact(s) each have had across various generations. GRRM does those generational echoes so prolifically and so well ; really takes at least my interest to another level. Just super impressive how well GRRM uses such techniques & devices and especially with more re-reads and scrutiny come to see how often he employs them across ASoIaF & its histories.
I just remember Arya’s chapter when she was going through the tunnel in kings landing following that black cat. So much insight on something had a clue.
Awesome video!
B&C is GRRM’s “Red Wedding” for the DoD, he likes a good shock killing and though the episode is good it is washed over compared to the Red Wedding.
I avoided reading about blood and cheese, I just knew it was significant. I was still underwhelmed by the way the show portrayed it. A lack of visual horror wouldn’t be bad on its own but there was no tension and the dialogue was not the best which ruined it for me.
With as many people who have known about the secret tunnels, I cannot understand why by the time of GoT they weren't sealed up or heavily guarded.
Balerion is one bad feline. Not even Ser Pounce would raise claws against him.
And perhaps, he was warged-into by Bloodraven, Beyond the Wall...
Great video Robert, thank you. I love these insights into the smaller elements of the lore, and seeing how interconnected things are. Cheers 🥂
The title sounds like the worst charcuterie board ever.
I’d give it a look. 😋
I literally had to google what a charcuterie is
You have a problem with blood sausage?
😂😂😂😂
"I nicked myself cutting the cheese. Don't mind the blood....or the fart"
are you making a video for the tapestry title sequence?
Show Blood and Cheese just did NOT have the same impact as the book. They dropped the ball a bit in my opinion...Still a good episode, but not one of my favorites.
As a non-book reader, it just felt so random and clunky… the whole sequence didn’t feel like it had much weight to it. I felt vaguely confused throughout the entire thing.
GREAT video…I think there’s a potential series there…Threads of Ice and Fire
Pairs well with The Witcher's Blood and Wine DLC
Wisconsin Targaryens: Blood and Cheese
Scooch it a few miles West and you'll need a woodchippa yathink?
Ah yes. Blood & Cheese. Next it will be "Doritos & Dew"
The writers of GoT are gone now, so i doubt it'll get quite that silly.
I love your videos Robert!
Thanks for all the amazing work 😊
This video has the best title on UA-cam
It was a choice to do it the first episode. Glad to get it out of the way really, it was one of the giant spoilers we had to keep tip=toeing around.
Was it really a spoiler? I believe they talked about it in game of thrones
And I unknowingly thought "Blood and Cheese" was some house's battlecry, like "Fire and Blood" or "Winter is coming".
Brilliant analysis! I haven’t heard any of this info elsewhere.
Weird that the red keep is full of cats and the filming location of Kings Landing (Dubrovnik) is also full of cats. A coincidence but I like it
The casting makes me feel like that large assassin fella was an ancestor of the eventual Clegane house. It rhymes with the house's history.
He doesn't live long after this murder...spoiler sorry
I thought he looked like the Mountain too
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy That may be in the history book but not what really happened, just a lie to save face. Or, even if it is true, he could already have children.
The way they handled this scene has made me very worried for the show going forward. George just had a blog post about them never 'make it their own and make it better' ... wonder now if this was him throwing barbs at the show far enough out so as not have people connect the two. Ryan Condal said "it's because so much happens, we didn't have time to show Maelor so we had to cut him" like mate... you didn't introduce any of the kids, their names were said once in season 1 and then Jaharyes had a tiny bit of screen time to make it know he was the kings heir, just put three kids there in season 1 and say their names.... it takes literally 2 seconds.
And an additional salary, additional costuming, additional child labor license...
@@PatrickLongblkwhtrbbt I could afford to pay for that, nevermind HBO...
George did say that he really liked ep1 and ep2 back when he visited the sets. Obviously you could say that it's just George doing some marketing, but he did seem to be pleased with the episodes. OR MAYBE, they shot different versions of blood and cheese and George watched the book accurate version... jk
HBO wanted to raceswap the Velaryons and everything after that shouldn't shock you
@@nuko1479That's just George doing marketing. He has several other projects in the works with HBO.
I personally believe they dropped the ball on Blood and Cheese in the first episode of season 2. Had someone watching with me and they didn’t really react that much when the kid was killed 😅
I was with two others who never read the books. We were good until the head sawing off sound.
It's not that I WANT to see it, but for the sake of impact on the viewer and understanding how horrible of an act this was, they needed to show a screaming kid picked up by the hair, Struggling in the air, and his head getting straight up cut off. Its harsh, but necessary to invoke the shock and horror that went through my head while experiencing the book.
@@ianthorpe1925agree, this event I supposed to be utterly horrific and it felt quite underwhelming all things considered
I have heard many accounts of child actors and young actors being lifelong traumatised by scenes they were involved in in horror movies and what the directors made or allowed them to see.
I wonder if this is a factor in the decision to not directly involve the children in a scene like you discribe.
Personally, If child torture and decapitation is the future of television, for the 'shock and impact' (entertainment) of the masses, we are going the way of the Roman Empire.
@@victoriagill1588
Thank you. We already know what kind of awful has happened, we shouldn't need to see it to be shocked by it and feel bad about it.
If people truly *need* to see the awful thing taking place (even if it's acted out), imo it shows that those people got so numbed by all the horror we see in movies/TV shows they can't relate to characters suffering without shock and gore. It's almost like they've stopped thinking and feeling on their own, and are waiting for medias to tell them how they should react.
We really don't need to see such a shocking scene to know how shocking and awful it is.
And we certainly do not need to force little kids to act those scenes out and traumatise them.
Heck, even adults get traumatised when playing the roles of deeply twisted, awful characters over and over and they're supposed to be able to clearly differentiate between fiction and reality. It'd be so much more awful for children...
This was a particularly good one. Thanks!
I'm all for a Cats of Ice and Fire video!
its like poetry. it rhymes
I was indeed wondering there being so many cats in the Red Keep while reading AGOT.
Lol last evening when i saw the title i skipped the video without checking the channel name! I thought YT is suggesting me a video on coucher practice 😂
There's A LOT of Red Keep cat connotations with Larra Rogare, who was the wife of Viserys II.
Ready for more ASOIAF cat content!
Jaehaerys I Targaryen confirmed to be NOT a cat person.
The kid was Jaeherys II, not Jaeherys I. Jaeherys I was the King BEFORE Rhaenerya’s father.
He had some mighty whiskers himself though.
@@jawo8754that’s who he is talking about. The Old King Jaehaerys.
Fantastic video!
I didn’t mind the TV version, I don’t want to see a child getting his head cut off. I do think the Sophie’s choice aspect would have made a better scene. However, Robert did say something I always wonder since reading FnB. Did Blood and cheese always intend to kill Jahaeharys or were they always planning on destroying Helana mentally and killing the opposite son either way.
"A son for a son". Their orders were to kill the crown prince and bring proof by way of the boy's head. Helena was collateral damage.
They didn't actually have to show the kid being decaptiated. They could have implied it, then cut away to Helaena's reaction as the child died, or depicted the death by showing the shadow on the wall of the swing of the sword. They did something similar in GoT season 2 when Janos Slynt killed Barra, Robert Baratheon's illegitimate daughter in the brothel. It showed him approach the infant with a knife, then cut away to the mother's reaction.
@@j-rey- I’m not sure how you watched the show but on my audio you could literally hear them hacking the child’s head off and him screaming.
The book version is actually less gruesome. Just the swift swing of the sword.
The version you prefer is the more brutal one.
@@HouseTargaryen24601 Not sure if you read my whole post. I said I didn’t want see a child’s death. Regardless of how it was done.
Been waiting for this all day!
Not what I expected. Meh
Love your videos. You never disappoint!!
very well done.
Those tunnels that were built to help targaryans ended up helping to hurt them
Great video.
Thanks.
I really want to hear your Aria cat theory
I thought this video was about cooking gone wrong 😂
The show version sucked. Period. And no, it's not because I wanted to see a 5year old boy's head getting lopped off.
It's because "Which one is the boy?" is SIGNIFICANTLY less impactful than "Which one do you want to die?" and the implications of the latter were also much more meaningful.
They took the core element that made this scene so powerful and flushed it down the drain. Now it's just a mediocre "meh" scene that invokes zero emotion, because we were not attached to any of the characters involved. Most certainly not the "Second Red Wedding scene" as they marketed it. It was a huge letdown for me.
Same bro, and I hyped this up to my friends as Red Wedding 2.0 so now I look kinda stupid. They missed what made the scene impactful. However they are really going for that comedy of errors thing
@@Captain_Insano_nomercy Honestly. The fact that the entire war has been reduced to accidents and misunderstandings is absolutely ridiculous.
Ruins the whole thing.
@@HouseTargaryen24601 I think it makes sense with certain things (such as Aemond/Vhaegar killing Lucerys/Arrax being an accident), but they're definitely getting carried away with the whole misunderstanding bs.
@@MugenHeadNinja Agreed.
I felt underwhelmed at first. But now, after sitting with it for a bit, I think it holds up. Regardless of whether Helaena has to choose between "two sons" or a "daughter or son," it's horrific either way. She'll still be traumatized and still feel guilt at literally choosing the death of her child. Yes, Blood/Cheese forced her, but the fact remains. She did the best she could in that situation, safeguarding at least one of her children. But the fearful, painful, and gruesome death of her child will stay with her forever.
And she did react.. She knew her premonition was coming true. Maybe it was precisely this, like deja-vu. Or maybe it's hazy visuals/words she perceives. Or maybe it was more metaphorical. We've seen her premonitions be literal ("He'll have to lose an eye") and metaphorical.
The worst thing about them is not knowing a premonition means. Only in hindsight do the words/connections make perfect sense. Can you imagine receiving vague fragmentary bits of inconsequential moments AND serious life-changing ones? Every single premonition has the potential to be something awful, but you don't know until it comes true. It's not an easy thing to live with. I'm not surprised Helaena comes across as "loopy." Anyone would be, with an ability like that but no way to stop any of it....and everyone around you thinking you're touched in the head.
When Helaena turned her focus away from Jaehaerys (fighting her instinct to protect him) and quickly scooped up Jaehaera and fled the room, it felt authentic. She had no assurance that Blood/Cheese wouldn't change their mind and kill Jaehaera and herself at any time. She focused on saving Jaehaera, put one foot in front of the other, stared straight ahead, and hoped. It's like Robot Protector Mom survival mode. You do what you have to do.
Besides, the muffled sounds of Jaehaerys with all the subsequent sickly hacking sounds is more haunting than anything. Helaena didn't need to see it, just as we don't. We're experiencing it from her POV (just as we experienced Aemma's lethal C-section primarily from her POV, focusing on her face and the hands holding her in place, and her screams.....rather than the gore itself). I'm curious how she'll be portrayed for the rest of the show, after this experience..
I don't know
Wow did I get this wrong... the only "Blood and Cheese" incident that I was aware of (and was actually expecting to find here) was the one in Acquisitions Incorporated Live PAX east 2019. don't get mad at me. I just got off of work it's 90+ F out there, and the warehouse has NO AC in it.
The scene was unnecessarily changed from the books. There are many things that don't work:
- Cheese is comically evil, almost out of a comedy
- Daemon getting in KL himself, when he could have sent, say, Mysaria (I mean, what's the point of changing HER story?)
- The story being told from the killers' point of view is not ridiculous, and lacks the shock value it had in the books
Don't get me wrong, I'm enjoying the show way more than the book, but this scene was perfect for the screen just as it was in the source material.
Personally, the most disturbing part for me was what happened after Aerea’s return.
Blood and Cheese in the book threatened to rape Jahaera if they Helaena didn't hurry up and choose! I understand In Deep Geek likely didn't want to be demonetized though!
Ia Ser Pouce Azor Ahai?
I'm all for it. Would've been nice to end the original series (since they already botched it..) with a final shot of Ser Pounce sitting on the melted Iron Throne, one leg up in the air, rear exposed to the camera, licking himself and making eye contact with the camera. And not the curious innocent expression cats sometimes have, but the one that makes you think: "Is this cat truly hating me right now or is it just thinking I'm a worthless piece of s#&$?" LOL
I was sure this was a cooking video.
Cat of the Canals?
Cat of the Red Keep Tunnels.
Blood and cheese summarises my recent tooth infection
It's such a shame what HotD did with this epic little tale that is just a small part of the bigger story of the Dance of the dragons but one that drives quite a few characters in their motivations.
Firstly the whole thing about cutting the youngest son and instead making the "dilemma" about which kid the boy is totally breaks the illusion as the solution to that problem is so obvious it's even pointed out in the sequence. (The age gap between the two kids should easily have given away the truth as well but whatever).
This honestly just unnecessary change robbed the scene of it's sadistic twist and with that of a lot of it's impact. Worse yet more impact is lost when Alisan Hightower after this still negotiates with Rehnyra (idk how to spell that name 😂) when this incident should have driven her over the edge in terms of her willingness to negotiate. (Same with Luces death lacking impact on R. as she seemingly ignores it for the sake of her "I'm the good queen thinking of the realm as a whole and the fight against the night king" arc. Which is a good arc but does undermine some of the emotional impact of certain story beats)
In short they had a scene that could have been shocking, yet memorable like the red wedding. Instead they have a scene that I can only describe as mediocre with shockingly little impact on the characters except King Aegon (his reaction is actually a great change and I love that they put some focus on him with this and how it drives him)
I believe Arya will indeed use the cats in an assassination plot, but much like Blood and Cheese will kill the wrong person. It seems likely that instead of Cersei, Arya will kill either Tommen or Myrcella in Winds.
It's not the wrong person in the books, though. It's a son for a son, as intended per Daemon's letter
Forget the Winds of Winter, forget House of the Dragon... I WANNA SEE THE CATS OF ICE AND FIRE!!
I've been waiting for this one!!!
🩸☠️🧀
UNLIKELY for a cat to assassinate someone, but Not Impossible. Especially with Arya. Now who could she kill by the time she gets back to Westeros, with the Lannisters likely long gone?
Can we call cheese parmigiano reggiano instead?
I D G !!!!!!!!!!!
Before I watch, can someone help clarify what exactly he means by spoilers? Does this mean spoilers for the rest of the show’s plot, or just for those that haven’t seen episode 1?
Robert talks about the books quite a bit in his videos… which the show is ultimately based on. Therefore, if you are show only and haven’t read the books, odds are you might hear something that will happen in the future of the show.
Mainly episode 1. He goes on to talk about how this act affected minor things that had an effect on the original Game of Thrones, such as Aya chasing cats. You only get minor spoils for the current series.
Episode 1 stuff, GoT predictions and spoilers, and some stuff in the rest of season 2 that you could probably forsee (e.g. the greens being angry and looking for the culprit)
@@R0J0_II @bronzescorpion @pepela8214 bless you all 🙌 thank you!
A Song of Kitties and Mice
It'd be a very different tone if the Targaryen words were "Blood & Cheese"
Conclusion - cats are awesome.
Jack Russell Terriers are good at ratting and it’s impossible for skin changers to turn into one. They would be easily spotted because they wouldn’t be able to be as hyper as a real Jack Russell 😂
There is no way the usages of cheese can be taken seriously in any context, no matter how many 'veril-l-lys' you put in front of it.
So we have on Team Black a Princess who broke her vows and spawned a horde of bastards and a prince who murdered his wife, then disposed of his niece's husband so he could marry her instead. All while having children slaughtered.
Why does our Bob say that Team Green is full of horrible people when it is the blacks who are the true evil and who have no claim to the throne?
I'm new to Westeros, so the name "Blood and Cheese" humors me severely.
They sound like ingredients to a meal, perhaps even son stew?
What comes around goes around.
Blood and Cheese or rather Choose and Bleed?
Cats!
The dubbing on blood’s voice was so strange and off putting. Not sure what happened there but it made it feel cartoonish
Cats. The solution to everything.
algorithm
Lol Robert had to make this to purge himself of the awful show adaptation
Isn´t "prince" deamon technically king deamon from the blacks perspective since he is married to the queen?
like, helena is the "queen" too, since she is married to the king
He is Prince Consort. Just like Elizabeth II’s husband.
He cannot be King as that would place him above Rhaenyra.
As said - he is Prince consort.
IMO. The change between the show and book is deliberate. The book is an account written after the fact by biased writers. The show is kinda meant to be the “true” account in contrast to the book. The book is an account written after events to make the Greens seem more sympathetic to history.
Which makes sense. The assassins are lowborn thugs. They’re not the sort capable of such a dramatic and over the top demand of the queen as revenge. It’s too “perfect” and dramatic to be a real event.
This is of course unsatisfying to watch but it is a very GRRM thing to do.
The more I think about this… Alicent will need an alibi for boinking CC… therefore, she may take up the Drama Queen title and state that she was there and add some of the choice context for color… who knows.
Ehhh, that doesn't really make up for how the show robbed one of the most iconic scenes in the ASoIaF world of most of its drama and power. It also isn't really clear that that was their intention. It seemed more that they didn't want to put something so brutal on TV, which is a dumb reason to cut out such a powerful moment, imo. It also lacked logic, so it's bad writing regardless. They ruined something that could have been a highlight of the entire show.
@@j-rey- oh I don’t disagree. It was a loss for the show. I just think that might be the justification. GRRM seems to forget he’s writing fantasy and not history, a little drama is good for the audience.
The true account where several key characters are missing.
Y'all are ridiculous with this "true" account nonsense.
I'm not gonna lie, I really hate this take that the show is meant to be “the true accounting of events.” The only people really believing this and espousing it are people who are show only, you can not come to terms with a so-called “true accounting” being unable to even get the number of kids the King and Queen have right.
Show blood and cheese was major disappointing to be honest compared to book blood and cheese. Hopefully be made up for somewhere else though
The show kind of botched this part of the story.
Not really cause no one knows how it really went down
@@damianjohnson6935 reread Fire And Blood and come back and edit that comment. Because there were SEVERAL first hand accounts quoted.
first comment?
Quite a fan of your videos, yet I think I will skip this one. I'll return later, for I have not read the book.
🌝🐈⬛🌝
What a cheesy title for such a dark conspiracy.
Step one: make a keep to defend against hostile intrusion.
Step two: make a prison beneath it to hold prisoners.
Step three: make plenty of unguarded secret tunnels connecting them to the outside allowing people to just walk in and out without anyone knowing.
...
Wait, what? What clownery is this? Lol. Dumb AF.
In my opinion, there are 4 key elements missing in the TV version of the events that we just saw. Firstly, Alicent - they've already shown her relationship with Criston Cole in the beginning, why need for that again? Secondly, Helaena just runs off, they didn't tie her up or even watch her. I guess it takes two grown men to murder a small child. She just casually walks off and can alert somebody, guards or her mother - what was that? Also Where were the guards? Her reaction was off to, given she's about to lose her oldest son, the heir, and even if she saw that in a dream, she did not scream or shed more than couple of tears. Thirdly, where is Maelor? He's crucial later in the story, so omitting him now and making Helaena choose between a son and a daughter also wasn't a necessary change. And lastly, I didn't like how Aemond was the prime target, and they didn't even try to find him. I get that they wanted to make Deamon's words unspoken, but it was done in a weird way. Killing Aemond would affect a coming war hugely, as one of the military commanders, and he just casually goes "eh, whatever, spent 5 seconds looking for him, and he's not there, kill other prince then". In was one of the lowest point so far in the show for me, and transition of events from the book to screen was done poorly this time, Season 8 of GoT style. Pity.
Its a plot by cats to rule the world 😁
"Sex worker" lol
Imo they took a ‘oh shit’ moment like when Luke got killed, to a ‘huh, that’s crazy’ moment. Like it’s supposed to the the first blood on the green’s side and they bookend it with Alicent getting loose.
The weird prophetic girl had the choice to decide and she still told them which was the boy. She thought about that for a reason. Something’s gonna happen. I didn’t read the books so no one ruin it for me if I’m right
That weird girl was their mother, the Queen, Heleana Targaryen.
The whole of season 1 and the first episode of Season 2 of House Of Dragon, so far, is better than the entire 8 seasons of Game Of Thrones combined.
I'm calling it.
Idk about entire eight seasons but forsure season eight.
😂. 🤓😎✌🏼
I disagree…. HOTD show so far is better than seasons 6-8 no doubt.
@@paulsarnik8506 - 🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🤓😎🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌🙌
Recency bias
First
Second
Third!
Im early let’s go!!
11th😂
As someone who has not rear the book, I felt I had to stop at 8:00 to avoid any potential spoilers. Maybe worthwhile adding a spoiler warning somewhere?
It was given at the beginning, you were told to listen at your own risk
Ah, indeed there it is. Must've skipped past it along with the usual intro.
The TV adaptation was miserable and totally underwhelming.
I agree I found it a bit of an anti climax. More dairylea than Stilton.
Eh…I dunno. It was gruesome still no matter what. I felt like my brain was assaulted by sound watching the show versus the dread and disgust I felt when I read the Blood and Cheese story.
Do I think the book version would be something never forgotten on tv? Sure. I’m honestly not sure I could actually watch it on screen. I mean a kid’s head getting lopped right off is pretty hard…and how logistically do they pull it off?
Settle down, ok?
The show did it better. The book version was gratuitous, unrealistic, and framed from the point of view of an unreliable narrator.
🙄🙄🙄
UNLIKELY for a cat to assassinate someone, but Not Impossible. Especially with Arya. Now who could she kill by the time she gets back to Westeros, with the Lannisters likely long gone?