In 1984 I was 22 and under a lot of pressure from my Stake President to go on a mission but there were some issues in my past that needed to be cleared up. Paul Dunn was sent to interview me. He listened to me, told a personal story that related told me he thought I was worthy to go on a mission but then he stopped looked at me and said: I know these stake presidents and bishops get excieted about you going on a mission but are you? I actually was not, I was dating my wife and was being pushed along by the Stake President. So I told him what was going on and he said I hereby release you from any obligation you feel to go on a mission. He told me I was free to go on a mission if I wanted but that I needed to live my own life. When I next met with the Stake President he was very humble becuase Paul had chewed his ass a little. I did not go on a mission and I married that girl. Had he not taken time to ask me what I wanted to do I would have gone on the mission. I just wanted to share that because he changed my life and I'll always be grateful to him. He didn't talk the company talk and continue to push me along. I have since left the church.
His stories may have been stories, but I'm so happy you were told by somebody to make your own personal decision. Seriously, that was great advise. At least that was one honest and inspired that he said.
Great story, Mike - thanks for sharing. I had a couple of instances like that as well with a couple local and area leaders on a couple issues I had. It was a great relief in those moments but, sadly, those experiences were rare while I was a TBM. There is SO MUCH PRESSURE to be what the church and the church culture dictates that you be.
This story is so profound. I read the books from Paul H Dunn, I listened to his cassette tapes. I was 16-17 at the time. I got his signature in a Book of Mormon when I was in the MTC. I looked up to him, I’m 64 now and all the scandals I’ve heard about the church it just leaves me feeling abandoned and hood winked. I don’t even know how I’m supposed to process all of this. Thanks for both of you for bringing the truth out. It’s horrific the church doesn’t do what’s right.
I have this book it is wonderful, once I started reading I couldn't put it down. Paul H Dunn married/sealed me and my wife in the Salt Lake Temple almost 40 years ago. A year or so after that I got into baseball card collecting and I went to a baseball card shop and asked for Paul H Dunn card, and the guy said "he does not have a card because he never did play in MLB" . When the news broke about him making up stories my wife asked me if that meant that our marriage was actually true because it was done by Paul H Dunn :-) this was a few years after I basically quit believing in the church, which was actually during my mission. But I just kept it to myself but I knew he never played baseball because when you're in the church you don't want to stir up things. With members of our families being active I didn't want to cause any trouble. 40 years after I came back from my mission is when my wife and I discussed the church I found out that we had felt the same way for all these years but never told each other because we thought the other one might want a divorce. So don't be scared to discuss the church with each other.
I can’t help but think that hearing Paul Dunn’s charismatic talks is probably what saints in Nauvoo and Kirkland heard as Joseph Smith told his fictional, magical stories.
This is outstanding information. As a teenager, I thought Paul Dunn was amazing, now I hear his speeches and see the arrogance in him. Thank you for all your research and for making it public! Great work Lynn and John!
Thanks for sharing this interview. When I had been reading about the events concerning the Hoffman bombings, Lynn Packer's name had been mentioned a number of times. And Hearing his accounts on this interview is refreshing, knowing his ethical standards of reporting are top notch and how he had the courage to pay a heavy price for truth. I give him a standing 'O', and total respect.!
After being in business for 45 years and have dealt with many different people , I have learned by sad experience that if someone needs something and slaps you on the back and calls you “brother” you turn and walk the other direction as fast as possible.
Wow, what a fantastic interview. Lynn is the man. I got to say though, that fact that he doesn't think journalism is going to improve anytime soon is terrifying.
Grew up listening to Dunn. On my mission in the late 80s, we would listen to his firesides on cassette tapes. Came home, got married within a year as my mission president instructed me to do. Then all the Dunn lies were exposed. Here I am in my 50s and still stuck in the church. I know it's all wrong but I am stuck, trapped. It's horrible.
I can relate and know how you feel. I went through an 8 year awakening/faith crisis and finally left in 2016. Letting go of it all, as terrifying as it was, was the best thing I did for my mental/ spiritual health. I am sure your situation is complicated. My heart goes out to you. 🙏
I once saw Paul Dunn at an Atlanta Braves baseball game back in 1991. I happened to be in Atlanta and decided to attend the game. It turned out to be “Welcome Back Dale Murphy Night.” After a long career as the Braves team leader he was now well past his prime and had been traded to the Phillies. Now back for the first time with his new team, they held an appreciation ceremony for him before the game, with a bunch of people being introduced who were influential in Murphy’s life and career. As each was introduced, they would walk out to home plate and greet him. I was aware that Dale Murphy was LDS, and was also quite familiar with Paul Dunn and his stories from when I investigated the church (but never joined) several years before. I became a big fan of his after an LDS friend loaned me several of his lecture tapes. So when it was announced, “From the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Paul Dunn" and he walked out, I gave him a bigger applause than I had given Murphy. But I also wondered aloud, “He’s a former major leaguer. So why didn’t they introduce him as such?” Paul Dunn was the only LDS church leader that I ever heard that I really liked and wanted to hear more of what he had to say. When Lynn Packer’s revelations came out I felt the same way I did as a child when I found out that Santa Claus isn’t real.
Lifelong Phillies fan here. Dale Murphy was a fan fav. During our ‘93 WS season, we had so many great characters and debauchery and there was Dale Murphy,...sticking out but totally part of that fun team! ❤️
@@andreadiamond7115 I remember that team. The Phils closer (Williams?) lost his touch in the World Series and were crushed by Joe Carter and the Blue Jays
My mission president, MTC pres, Area Authorities, APs, etc. all told me ad nasuem that the key to baptizing big numbers was to follow the mission rules, obey the commandments, and stay steadfast and faithful. In my mission there were 3 or 4 all star missionaries who would always babtize huge numbers no matter what. One would assume, then, that these all stars were incredibly obedient and faithful. But one would be dead wrong. In fact some of these all stars were the OPPOSITE of obedient, and a couple were downright naughty. The one thing all these all stars had in common was that all of them were EXTREMELY charismatic. The kind of people that everyone wanted to hang out with. One of my buddies asked our AA, Angel Abrea, why this was. Angel gave such a cop out non-answer, that in that moment, the veil was lifted from my eyes and I saw the world as it was. John said it today. 90% of our testimonies are based on the influence of a few charismatic men , and slickly-produced videos.
@@claytoncornia4156 ...as was Paul Dunn and nearly ALL of the CIS, seminary and institute teachers. They found a model that worked. All the charismatic missionaries in my mission were promoted to APs right away. Within months.
Also See Trevor Milton; he was recently outed (sept/oct 2020) as a huge charismatic fraud of Nikola motors...I think Mormonism drives these kinds of folks to justify their lies. The church uses against its members which breeds its use BY members.
I live two doors down from his luxurious home (after he died and his wife sold the home) and have heard the most amazing stories from his neighbors that knew him. The home is 10,000 sq ft with 7 bedrooms and 7 bathrooms. He was a very strange man with a stranger wife. Apparently his wife needed wealth and when she wanted new things he would write a new book to provide for her. Integrity is everything and he had none. My parents played his cassette tapes constantly. The other favorite cassette of theirs was a lady that made the LDS circuit telling about how she was a catholic nunn that was almost killed by head hunters. She could also tell a great story and it was also total lies.
I was a neighbor as well, and I was Jeanne's visiting teacher. I have to say that when we went to her home it always felt dark and so Unhappy. Could never understand it ?
They lived very a closed-off life. Usually a visiting teacher or home teacher weren’t welcomed. I knew one VT that was let in, but that was the exception. His wife was paranoid of someone breaking in. She planted thorny bushes under every window, and put deadbolts on every upstairs bedroom. Her reason was that if someone used a ladder to gain entrance, the deadbolt would prevent them from gaining access beyond that bedroom. The male neighbors next door and another across from them ran into Paul outside of the neighborhood and tried to talk to him. He asked if they were golf pros and was surprised to find that they were his neighbors for over five years. Paul’s study was the nicest room I’ve ever seen. It must be 25x40 feet with a huge fireplace, paneling and rows of bookshelves that you walk between like a library. It sits on a double lot that was apparently given them by Merrill Osmond who was going to build on the second lot, before financial troubles from fraud. The family room fireplace had a cooking grate that Paul used to cook himself a steak every night.
Oh. You’re asking about the current people who live there? She is a former friend that I have no fondness for. Just over a year ago, I went to her to tell her that I was separated from my husband, would be finalizing my divorce soon and planned on moving away as soon as possible to move in with my girlfriend. Her response was, “Oh, Linda. You mean your Girlfriend!” Then she visibly gagged and made the most disgusting face. Can’t stand her! She bullied me once via text to the point I called the suicide hotline and was hyperventilating. I was trying to tell her about ladies I was visiting teaching that felt ostracized in the neighborhood because they didn’t have enough money. She was arguing that it was impossible. The neighborhood was the most accepting and loving people she knew. She accused me of lying and having an agenda for saying so.
Dang, I seem to be going on a Mormon-scandal marathon with these episodes, here! Hadn't watched this one yet, wow. What a tale. I hadn't even known of Paul Dunn before watching this episode, although the name is somehow familiar to me even so, so maybe I've somehow heard of it before today. All I think that I need to say is that I'm super grateful to Lynn for his diligence and work into putting all these pieces together. It wouldn't have come to light as well without him. 💚
Wow! That was a lot. I sat in a front row seat at a conference when Dunn spoke in 1968 and I took it hook , line and sinker. I feel very betrayed. Thank you Mr.Packer for your courage.
In 1989 one of the assistants in my mission, who was a huge Paul H. Dunn fan, arranged for him to come and talk to a bunch of us. The chapel was full of missionaries, it was summer and the AC wasn't on so it was hot. After the first hour or so, our attention and excitement began to ebb. He recited these stories by rote, with no passion, excitement, or even tonal inflection. He was as bored as we were. He spoke for, as I remember, five hours. Maybe it just felt that way. Missionaries were slumped over in their seats, sleeping or trying to stay awake. He finally stopped mid-story and said, "Well, you've given up on me so I'll give up on you," and finished. On the way back to our areas, I rode along with the assistant who had arranged for Paul H. Dunn to speak and he was just gushing about the whole thing. I remarked that I had listened to the spirit during those stories, and the spirit told me that Paul H. Dunn was not telling the truth. And it had. That assistant tore me up one side and down the other and went about trying to make my life miserable for months afterwards. He was kind of a bitch anyway. His name was Clanton. Turned out I was right. I'm glad that I had that experience and it has served me well over the years, strengthening my testimony, and helping me understand the difference between what the spirit says is true and what is just an appeal to emotion. I'm still active.
As a young convert, I had heard all these wonderful stories about Paul Dunn. After attending an enthusiastic Devotional I almost ran into him while he was heading to his car. As I got closer to him I saw man whose dark character showed in his face and I altered course. I told my Branch President about this encounter and said he seemed like an untrustworthy man with a dark soul (forgive the "churchy" talk) and I felt guilty as all others seemed to worship him. However, I was a foreign student who had been raised around farm animals. Was not surprised years later.
Egotistical people thrive in the church. My former husband was a convert so he was put on a pedestal. He also was a great story teller so when this happened to Paul dunn we were asked if we were related because our last name was dunn. My husband would laugh and say no but that he could tell better stories. He's still on that pedestal even after leaving me for someone 12 years younger. Always called to be the young men's president even in his 60s. I left the church 10 years ago and am a much happier person. I found out who Jesus really is much more than my big brother and Satan's brother. I always questioned but was afraid to leave until after my divorce. My former husband didn't want to hear my questions because he was so caught up in the culture and was very popular in the ward even though he didn't care to much for the temple stake conference or general conference like me. We considered conference days a day off.
@@bargeiger50 "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased" So this naturally tells us that Jesus is our big brother as we are all children of Our Heavenly Father!
Mormons don't think that they are depraved sinners, since they justify themselves with good works in an attempt to gain salvation. Their Jesus' salvation only kicks in once you are perfect according to the Book of Mormon, something impossible to do.
I downloaded the book tonight on my Kindle. I remember hearing Dunn speak when I was a teenager, was a very emotionally touching speaking that was very convincing.
I’m watching this and remembered that my dad got scammed by a general authority person that claimed he was starting a medical insurance business. He asked ten business investors for a hundred thousand dollars. My dad gave the guy the money and never heard from him again. I will have to look up the name to see who it was. I don’t think it was Paul Dunn.
I swear to gosh, the second anointing makes GA even worse of people. It allows them to say and do whatever they want without feeling guilty about it. They can steal, scam, murder, cheat, they don't care. Oh but as long as they never deny the holy ghost, or God, or Christ, they are saved.
My parents converted in 1969. My father was totally enamored with Dunn and was livid when Dunn was given emeritus status. I was too young to understand.
We lived in the Boston mission where Dunn was Mission President - my dad converted first. President Dunn became close friends with my aunt who converted in Boston. He did do some good, but it’s a shame he felt the need to lie like he did.
It helps to keep my faith in humanity alive to see that there is a beacon of sanity and honesty in an otherwise bastion of madness that is the state of utah
Paul Dunn speeches were a key tool in converting process. When prospects "Mr. and Mrs Brown" have committed to go cold turkey from smoking and drinking was a crucial moment and Dunn's narratives were perfect encouragement, creating a spirit driven meeting. Dunn's rationale to spin tales makes sense when you come to realize the whole Mormon story is a whopper.
My father was in world war 11 and it was my experience that the people who saw the most action never talked about it and very often felt survivors guilt as they knew there survival was very often by chance or luck.
This is brilliant, thanks so much. Paul Dunn was a favorite of mine growing up and was actually benched while I was in the MTC. Really great series of episodes.
I believe there is a Lions Led By Donkeys podcast episode about this guy. One of many examples of stories I recognize as an outsider but can't fully appreciate because I don't speak Mormon. This window into your whacky little world affords me so much insight into stories which I can only grasp at the edges of. Thank you for translating.
Paul H Dunn was the beginning of the end for me. I listened to his tapes leading up to the mission, clearly feeling the spirit. Then finding out mid mission it was all lies, made me start the questioning.... this does not ad up.... what else is there?
Watching this again and seeing Dunn speak makes me so embarrassed that I used to gobble up these sugary stories as a youth. I remember Dunn well from the So Cal firesides in the 1970's. We always liked BYU & USC in my home. I am related to Elder Haight so it is interesting to see him here. I feel that you don't hear much about him
Paul Dunn’s great need for adulation and need for being recognized and honored reflects that he may have been a narcissist. A narcissist never admits wrong and never will retract a lie. I know this because a relative interviewed him for his last book a few years before his death and his position was that he was set up by Church leaders. In his words, he did no wrongs! A narcissist, like many church leaders today (e.g., President Nelson) and in the past (e.g., Joseph Smith) will never admit their wrongs or be honest about truths that don’t make them to good. SAD!!!
This is really great. I teach Media Literacy at a small college, and it's our only real class dealing with media issues, and it's mostly an elective, and I spend a lot of time talking about how much the explosion of the Internet undermined a golden age of journalism and accountability.
WOW..!! My Greatest respect to Lynn Packer who had the intuition and courage to follow his truth.. The church no longer aspires to godly truth, but only to the vain aspirations of some earthly lying priesthood members . I have so much respect for you, John Dehlin, our 'earthly prophet' for having the courage to openly air this podcast... !!
Dear Mr. Lynn Packer. Thank you very much for your efforts. I greatly appreciate to stand out for truth. It is one of the basic pillars for trust love and progress as a society. I was very dissapointed how the officers of the church handled it. Your explanation is enlightning. I get the breatherens concerns, but truth has to be the base of human interactions. Else nothing will stand. As a German i believe we have a record of history which proves that. The German psychologist Erich Fromm said. All Tyrans proclaim that all they wandted is the best for all others. My take on it is the parabels of the wheat and the terars who might give the best answer. It is clear cut as a knife. Very imprssively protrayes here. Downside is some wheat might be destroyed and cancer spreads. If evil is not apposed and greatly rewarded dishonesty is bread. And the sense of doing injustice is lost. But in my mind there is a reason the lord from time to time takes tha road. Thank you both for your efforts and enjoy. I believe it gives all the answeres. ua-cam.com/video/3sjPSaG4E34/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/kKz3C4jGL0c/v-deo.html ua-cam.com/video/2y_Aez-MAUQ/v-deo.html
I’m out of the church and I can’t see myself ever going back. While inactive for a couple decades I had positive feelings about my past involvement and the church generally. Just ‘no longer for me.’ The wide-spread support for Trump changed all of that.
The wide spread Trump support was the beginning of the end of my love, for my church. The hatred and chaos and fighting and people shunning me bc I’m a liberal.. Mormon maga’s truly did me the biggest favor of my life. My husband left me after 25 yrs during this time, so it was a lot of abandonment. He was fully supported by the church, in leaving me bc of my lack of faith.
The Mormon church, is/has always been conservative. Of course the vast majority will vote that way. Extreme beliefs=extreme judgement. Good people won't judge you for a difference in opinions/views.
It's wild hearing about how the church hit a point of choosing feelings or facts, but even more so when you consider it probably wasn't only the Mormons who hit that point. And that makes a lot of sense for current day situations in regards to both the political situation we're in and issues that have been showing up in schools of kids struggling with recognizing logical fallacies and critical thinking skills. I know there are many other factors at play, but this is a new perspective added to the mix for me.
I was always suspicious of all the stories Thomas Monson told. I’ve often marveled at his endless stories about widows. And always with a tear in his eyes. And I look at my mother who longs for her husband and think she might get some comfort by going to the temple but can’t because she can’t afford to pay tithing. So next time you see a General Authority in conference weeping over the lectern about some poor widow, just remember they don’t care enough about them to allow them in the temple without paying first.
I didn't know what I was getting into when I started watching this program. WOW...another stinky layer of this raw LDS onion pulled back. I was a " golden " member for 15 yrs, I have been free for 13 yrs. I still have Post Traumatic 15 years in the LDS Church Syndrome. I had never heard about Paul Dunn while I was " in ", but then not until I was " out " I never knew JS had more than one wife 🙄
With the benefit of hindsight, Paul Dunn must have known that at some point, someone would realize all his stories were fabricated. Personally, when I became of aware of him being exposed, it made me feel quite gullible. The thing is, it never occurred to me at the time that a general authority would lie. My thanks to John and Lynn for this fantastic series of interviews!
My faith is in Jesus Christ. He is my Saviour and Redeemer, not Joseph Smith Jr, Brigham Young or Paul H. Dunn. I am not one iota embarrassed: the Lord will judge him, and the scriptures make it plain that liars are cast down to Hell. My testimony is of Jesus Christ. Church leaders are NOT infallible and have never claimed to be so. JohnDehlin is just another apostate with an axe to grind. I will watch the video, but I am not going to leave the Church over the failings of one man. BTW, why don't these apostates ever recognise the downfall of Protestant and Catholic leaders, as well as JWs? I get a story of other Christian leaders leaving the ministry and becoming atheists at least once a week in my email Inbox. The whole of Christianity is under threat and all these apostates can do is piss all over the Church and its leaders. They are NOT Christians by any measurable criteria.
@@1sirteddles I doubt anyone here left the church just because of Paul Dunn. As for me, it's just one more thing in a long list of problems with the church. I'm happy the church works for you. It no longer works for me.
All his stories were NOT fabricated! I have a copy of an extensive interview (4 humble hours) he gave of his life and his stories to my aunt, a journalist. He wanted her to publish his life story after his death because he felt it inappropriate against his accusers while he was alive. Later, he changed his mind and asked her not to publish the book. Sadly, he was alienated by the leaders in the First Presidency and Apostleship. Within the past ten years, she contacted the Church leaders about this interview. A return letter unkindly DEMANDED that she return all copies of the interview as she described it to them. As if she was keeping church documents of her own from them. Paul Dunn was USED as a scapegoat by the Church leadership. If in doubt, Ask his wife!!! How does receiving a leaked copy of an opponents tax returns make Bro Packer better than his accusations? At least Paul Dunn inspired others for good.
@@gailcapshaw397 You're making claims that have no support. Take the baseball stories... if they really happened, it would be oh so easy to verify. Say what you will about baseball, but the sport is meticulous when it comes to keeping records. Please show me any evidence that he played major league baseball. You can't, because he never did. Using lies to inspire others to do good doesn't cut it for me. Now, this isn't to say that everything that came from his mouth was a lie. I don't think anyone is really claiming this. But his most sensational stories were just that - stories. Too bad he didn't present them as parables...that would have worked out much better for him. And the fact that he put out a public statement stating that this was the case puts the burden of proof on you to prove otherwise.
My Mission Pres. I was 25 and recently baptized. I was a foster child and looked at him as a father figure. The adversary seemed destined from the time I was 2 when Mother died and dad had mental problems. And it is ongoing the reasons to quit depending on the Lord. Listening to this has been an eye opener. I didn't want to watch it.
@@ericb.1384 leaving Mormonism and religion altogether had been wonderful for me personally. However it is not easy to live in a country dominated by Christian religiosity. Why is Jesus real but not Odin or Thor or Allah or Buddha or any of the thousands of other human created gods in our collective human history? Have you ever thought to question HOW you arrived at your conclusion? Have you questioned your own motivation for maintaining a religious faith? Is it that you simply prefer there to be some greater meaning to your life? Or that it is preferable to believe we get to keep living after death? I would prefer a life after death but all the evidence gathered throughout human history suggests we simply die. The fact is that humans have believed in thousands of gods over tens of thousands of years. The gods of each era are the product of the human zeitgeist in that period. We live and we die. This is our one life. Cherish and make the most of it.
@@Ether-pb5gb sin is a construct of humans based on our collective human experience. There is no cosmological being keeping tabs on what you do. It’s just you tracking you. Own your mistakes as you see them. Be patient with yourself as you grow from them.
@@Ether-pb5gb we may need to each provide definitions of the terms we are using. I consider what people call divine to be part of the human experience. Just as I consider science to be part of the collective human experience. Brain scan observations show where spiritual/divine experience occurs in the brain. Science and human psychology are fairly good and providing sound explanations as to how these occur and the evolutionary mechanisms which lead to humans developing religious ideas.
@@Ether-pb5gb commonly explained by the simple fact we humans have amazing hallucinatory experiences which can manifest for a myriad of reasons. Severe PTSD induced visions, hallucinogenic compounds, sensory deprivation chamber induced visions, deep meditation, ritualistic induced visions, sleep paralysis states where eyes SEE apparitions in the room. All easily explained by the fact that two areas of the brain are in different waking and unconscious states. The miraculous and what appear to be spiritual experiences of humans don’t prove a supernatural beyond. They are every day occurrences that science continues is continuing to unravel and explain. Nearly all past mysteries of human existence have been fully or mostly explained and understood by science. There are many mysteries left but we needn’t chalk them up to ghosts and fairy tales anymore. We can be humble and accept the fact the universe is vast beyond human scope. With that there is our lucky life evolving and becoming sentient. It’s quite miraculous yes, but wholly explainable and understandable through science.
l went to BYU when Paul J Dunn spoke. The students loved him. He talked to all who waited in line afterwards. He kissed me on the cheek This is sad to listen to. as Paul H Dunn was very loved.
"I know this church is true"......at least the part that manipulates the emotions and lives of people who want to be a part of something warm and fuzzy in their heart.
For the life of me, I cannot fathom how Dunn got away with these lies for so long. The war stories I can understand. Millions of people served in World War II, and many of the battles were utter chaos from start to finish. Many heroic acts were never reported, let alone officially recognized. But, and compared to war, this is petty; baseball fans are statistics freaks. Even in the pre-Internet days, it would have taken almost no effort to look up his record in any number of baseball almanacs published every year and find that he had no record. I find it hard to believe that there was never a baseball fan that heard one of his talks or read one of his books and never tried to look up his baseball record. It's as if no one wanted to know the truth. This episode, and the LDS church's reaction to it, proves that it is a cult.
Larry Rouse, There were at least 3 levels of professional baseball. From top to bottom there was: *Major League Baseball (MLB) *AAA Baseball where many MLB players are sent to regain confidence after either an injury or performance slump *AA Baseball. The AAA, and AA leagues were collectively referred to as minor leagues. At the time of Holland's introduction of Dunn in the video, I was a BYU student and I had read "Win if You Will" by Dunn. I could match a name to a face of almost every player in the MLB so I was a knowledgeable fan. I simply thought that Dunn was a AA Baseball player. Does your local library have AA Baseball almanacs dating back to 1942? (Mine did not, and still does not have almanacs from that decade.) Will you reply to my comment with a link to a website that shows AA Baseball statistics since 1942? Note: 1942 would have been Dunn's 18th birthday. It is in conceivable that Dunn would have played in the minor league more than 2 years prior to his 18th birthday, and in this video within a video, Holland said Dunn was with a minor league player for 4 years. So 1942 is a good starting point.
@@ieatoutoften872 I’m fully aware of how professional baseball is structured. He claimed to have played for the Saint Louis Cardinals. When confronted with evidence of his fabrications, he justified them as necessary to illustrate his theological and moral points. He even compared them to Jesus’ parables. He did apparently briefly play in the minors, but he told people In person and in his books that he played Major League Baseball with the Cardinals. That is a bald faced lie.
@@larryrouse6322 , Dunn said and wrote that he played in the minor leagues for the Cardinals organization which is different from what you and others have accused him. Dunn never said or wrote that he played on the MLB Cardinals team. Lyn Packard, who evidently did not understand the structure of professional baseball, made that accusation. Anybody who knows how baseball is structured knows the difference between an "MLB team" and an "MLB organization" (with minor league teams that are named differently than its flagship MLB team). I have one of Paul H. Dunn's books. I listened to one of Paul H. Dunn's church talks. Open challenge to anyone: Find me where or when Paul H. Dunn said he played for the MLB Cardinals. In Dunn's book, "Win if You Will", Dunn wrote that Dunn played minor league professional baseball. In a letter to qualify his public apology, Dunn doubled-down saying he never lied about playing in the minor leagues. "The events which I have described from my own life, including my war assignments and professional minor-league baseball affiliations were actual experiences. I wish to clarify that I have never fabricated, never created fictional stories about myself. I have experienced the events I have related." Dunn claims to have signed a contract in 1941 to play in the minor leagues as a pitcher in 1942, but Dunn never actually played in the minor leagues until 1947 because of the Second World War. There is a record of Dunn being assigned to a minor league team in 1947.
Sometimes you can't find evidence for a claim that is true, though. For example, I'm not in the picture for my high school basketball team during senior year because I wasn't at school that day. But no one would be able to tell the story of why I'm not in the pic except for me and my teammates. When you're talking about minor league ball, those teams have no real budget and are often owned by some real characters who aren't super honest or organized. So it's like, if someone couldn't find him in an A or AA program, it could probably be explained away. Not everyone is going to check every aspect of every story the way Packer did. Like in my case, you could find me referenced in articles in the local paper if you really dug. But if you're just talking to a guy from church, how far are you actually going to dig? In most cases he would be able to explain these things away with a plausible story and people would not have looked any deeper.
Edit(it is apparent that Paul Dunn was suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, in a way he couldn't help who he was) I think we (all the way to the top) need to take the counsel in D&C 121:34-40 to heart. I get that leaders think they might be protecting the church, but "covering our sins" is strickly named as one of these things that withdraws the powers of heaven. So when we, as a community of Christ or Church of Christ, try to guide our sins and aspire to look good to the world ( aspire to the honors of men) we have grieved the Spirit. The apostolic authority may be conferred upon the body of church, but it seems like we have disqualified ourselves from the actual power in every way listed in that scripture
NPD is a personality disorder, and if Dunn was one he certainly knew what he was doing. These types do not change, and the best course of action when dealing with them is to walk away. They will take advantage of you if you give them any pity or pander to their "illness".
This church worship of Mormon "celebrities" always got on my nerves as a TBM. I felt it was unfair to put them in the position of speaking for the church just because they were famous and it left no room for any personal deviance from lock, stock, and barrel mormonism. People would sit in the chapels hanging on the speaker's every word. This is how the church works - use any means possible to convince you to stay put - even appealing to any authority figure, however irrelevant.
I remember as a youth having to memorize All the Articles of Faith and the one that comes to mind is…”Being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, and doing good in All things”!! Knowing all the while my Apostles were lying through there teeth to get what they wanted $$!! I’m hurt and angry that I conformed and waisted my young life believing all their untruths! I’m just now at 61 realizing how much of a lie I conformed to! I always knew I didn’t fit in to the walk the walk and talk the talk! But when I went to the temple I absolutely knew I was in the twilight zone! My relationship with my Heavenly Father is just that between Him and I! Don’t need organized religion for that! That’s what they make you believe is you can’t make it to the next life without the Mormon church and that isn’t true!! Thank you John Dehlin and Lynn Packer for always bringing the Truth!
I have heard more strange stories from one the of seventies specifically South African,one included an incident during his mission whereby his companion was run over by truck but instead of being hurt, he went through the truck's door, at that time i was working as the CES Director in East Africa. It seems to me as if the General Authorities believe that the moral codes do not apply to them.
I hated -- I mean HATED -- Thomas Monson's speaking voice. He always sounded so sweet and so phony. I never said anything to anyone -- because so many of my peers LOVED Elder Monson (or President Monson -- later down the line). I hated -- HATED -- the sound of his voice AND his stupid stories.
Paul was in my Stake and he was invited to come all the time to Stake dinners and breakfasts. He came when he could but he stopped showing his face when this happened.
I was at BYU fall 80 and winter 81. President Holland was inaugurated president in 1980. I attended a devotional when elder Dunn spoke and that clip you showed of president Holland’s introduction was possibly from that devotional
My mother told me that she named me "Paul" after Dunn. Fuck that! I would have rather it be that she was rogered by a Beatle! This was part of my undoing...… but it really came down to DNA... I was out by 2002. Long story, but the last couple of years watching folks become woke to the fraud and fallacy of Mormonism has been mildly affirming. Even though I know first hand the weight and pain, oh boy do I, I am glad that I did not straddle my children with this absolute bullshit.
My great grandfather was shot in WW11 and he never talked about it. Most veterans don't. My grandpa and I are doing genealogy and family history and are trying to get his army records. Covid has made it hard.
Excellent episode. It is unfortunate and ironic that John wore a hat promoting an MLM in an episode about scams and frauds. But this was a while ago so I'm sure he knows better now.
I am totally blind. Thank you for describing the visual images that appeared on the screen. I appreciate your awareness. Great video.
How did you write this comment💀
@@colby2027You do realize there are assistance devices/programs and multiple ways for someone who is blind to write and type, right?
In 1984 I was 22 and under a lot of pressure from my Stake President to go on a mission but there were some issues in my past that needed to be cleared up. Paul Dunn was sent to interview me. He listened to me, told a personal story that related told me he thought I was worthy to go on a mission but then he stopped looked at me and said: I know these stake presidents and bishops get excieted about you going on a mission but are you? I actually was not, I was dating my wife and was being pushed along by the Stake President. So I told him what was going on and he said I hereby release you from any obligation you feel to go on a mission. He told me I was free to go on a mission if I wanted but that I needed to live my own life. When I next met with the Stake President he was very humble becuase Paul had chewed his ass a little. I did not go on a mission and I married that girl. Had he not taken time to ask me what I wanted to do I would have gone on the mission. I just wanted to share that because he changed my life and I'll always be grateful to him. He didn't talk the company talk and continue to push me along. I have since left the church.
That's a great story. Thank you Mike.
His stories may have been stories, but I'm so happy you were told by somebody to make your own personal decision. Seriously, that was great advise. At least that was one honest and inspired that he said.
Not a complete jerk, nice to know. Loved his inspirational speeches....
Great story, Mike - thanks for sharing. I had a couple of instances like that as well with a couple local and area leaders on a couple issues I had. It was a great relief in those moments but, sadly, those experiences were rare while I was a TBM. There is SO MUCH PRESSURE to be what the church and the church culture dictates that you be.
Great interview. Lynn Packer's podcasts on Mormon Stories is so interesting!
This story is so profound. I read the books from Paul H Dunn, I listened to his cassette tapes. I was 16-17 at the time. I got his signature in a Book of Mormon when I was in the MTC. I looked up to him, I’m 64 now and all the scandals I’ve heard about the church it just leaves me feeling abandoned and hood winked. I don’t even know how I’m supposed to process all of this. Thanks for both of you for bringing the truth out. It’s horrific the church doesn’t do what’s right.
I have this book it is wonderful, once I started reading I couldn't put it down. Paul H Dunn married/sealed me and my wife in the Salt Lake Temple almost 40 years ago. A year or so after that I got into baseball card collecting and I went to a baseball card shop and asked for Paul H Dunn card, and the guy said "he does not have a card because he never did play in MLB" . When the news broke about him making up stories my wife asked me if that meant that our marriage was actually true because it was done by Paul H Dunn :-) this was a few years after I basically quit believing in the church, which was actually during my mission. But I just kept it to myself but I knew he never played baseball because when you're in the church you don't want to stir up things. With members of our families being active I didn't want to cause any trouble. 40 years after I came back from my mission is when my wife and I discussed the church I found out that we had felt the same way for all these years but never told each other because we thought the other one might want a divorce. So don't be scared to discuss the church with each other.
❤
♥️
Sounds like Jim jones
I can’t help but think that hearing Paul Dunn’s charismatic talks is probably what saints in Nauvoo and Kirkland heard as Joseph Smith told his fictional, magical stories.
This is outstanding information. As a teenager, I thought Paul Dunn was amazing, now I hear his speeches and see the arrogance in him. Thank you for all your research and for making it public! Great work Lynn and John!
I appreciate Packers approach to things- like a journalist. He is dispassionate and objective and doesn’t try to make himself the story. Great job.
Thank you both, John and Paul, for your courage, honesty and integrity. Morality is a rich blessing. Keep telling truth to power. We love you both.
I applaud Lynn’s integrity and courage.
Thank you Lynn Packer for seeking and finding TRUTH! Fascinating story.
Sadly the truth sometimes comes at a cost. Thank you Lynn for your integrity and sacrifice for the truth.
Thanks for sharing this interview.
When I had been reading about the events concerning the Hoffman bombings, Lynn Packer's name had been mentioned a number of times. And Hearing his accounts on this interview is refreshing, knowing his ethical standards of reporting are top notch and how he had the courage to pay a heavy price for truth.
I give him a standing 'O', and total respect.!
After being in business for 45 years and have dealt with many different people , I have learned by sad experience that if someone needs something and slaps you on the back and calls you “brother” you turn and walk the other direction as fast as possible.
Thankful for Lynn Packer's work and transparency. Grateful for his willingness to do the right thing in his journalistic pursuits.
Thank you, Lynn Packer, for your life and your work. Thank you!
Wow, what a fantastic interview. Lynn is the man. I got to say though, that fact that he doesn't think journalism is going to improve anytime soon is terrifying.
Have enjoyed Lynn's historical perspectives, his authenticity, tenacity, and quest for truth. Thank you.
Grew up listening to Dunn. On my mission in the late 80s, we would listen to his firesides on cassette tapes. Came home, got married within a year as my mission president instructed me to do. Then all the Dunn lies were exposed. Here I am in my 50s and still stuck in the church. I know it's all wrong but I am stuck, trapped. It's horrible.
I am close to your age and walked away. It was easy for me since my wife and daughter left first.
Just don't go. Go fishing instead and keep your money....
I can relate and know how you feel. I went through an 8 year awakening/faith crisis and finally left in 2016. Letting go of it all, as terrifying as it was, was the best thing I did for my mental/ spiritual health. I am sure your situation is complicated. My heart goes out to you. 🙏
@@jenben5alive458 But i m raised in Germany a complete other bubble.
Interesting that people found his stories “inspirational.” They were all boys talk, boys talk is always exaggerated.
I once saw Paul Dunn at an Atlanta Braves baseball game back in 1991. I happened to be in Atlanta and decided to attend the game. It turned out to be “Welcome Back Dale Murphy Night.” After a long career as the Braves team leader he was now well past his prime and had been traded to the Phillies. Now
back for the first time with his new team, they held an appreciation ceremony for him before the game, with a bunch of people being introduced who were influential in Murphy’s life and career. As each was introduced, they would walk out to home plate and greet him.
I was aware that Dale Murphy was LDS, and was also quite familiar with Paul Dunn and his stories from when I investigated the church (but never joined) several years before. I became a big fan of his after an LDS friend loaned me several of his lecture tapes. So when it was announced, “From the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, Paul Dunn" and he walked out, I gave him a bigger applause than I had given Murphy. But I also wondered aloud, “He’s a former major leaguer. So why didn’t they introduce him as such?”
Paul Dunn was the only LDS church leader that I ever heard that I really liked and wanted to hear more of what he had to say. When Lynn Packer’s revelations came out I felt the same way I did as a child when I found out that Santa Claus isn’t real.
Lifelong Phillies fan here. Dale Murphy was a fan fav. During our ‘93 WS season, we had so many great characters and debauchery and there was Dale Murphy,...sticking out but totally part of that fun team! ❤️
@@andreadiamond7115 I remember that team. The Phils closer (Williams?) lost his touch in the World Series and were crushed by Joe Carter and the Blue Jays
I’ve been listening to this series on the Podcast app, but decided I needed to SEE this one. It was worth it. Thanks for your time and efforts.
My mission president, MTC pres, Area Authorities, APs, etc. all told me ad nasuem that the key to baptizing big numbers was to follow the mission rules, obey the commandments, and stay steadfast and faithful. In my mission there were 3 or 4 all star missionaries who would always babtize huge numbers no matter what. One would assume, then, that these all stars were incredibly obedient and faithful. But one would be dead wrong. In fact some of these all stars were the OPPOSITE of obedient, and a couple were downright naughty. The one thing all these all stars had in common was that all of them were EXTREMELY charismatic. The kind of people that everyone wanted to hang out with. One of my buddies asked our AA, Angel Abrea, why this was. Angel gave such a cop out non-answer, that in that moment, the veil was lifted from my eyes and I saw the world as it was. John said it today. 90% of our testimonies are based on the influence of a few charismatic men , and slickly-produced videos.
Sounds like you and I might have been in the same mission.
Yt?%%%/
Hmmm, Joseph Smith was extremely charismatic too.
@@claytoncornia4156 ...as was Paul Dunn and nearly ALL of the CIS, seminary and institute teachers. They found a model that worked. All the charismatic missionaries in my mission were promoted to APs right away. Within months.
Also See Trevor Milton; he was recently outed (sept/oct 2020) as a huge charismatic fraud of Nikola motors...I think Mormonism drives these kinds of folks to justify their lies. The church uses against its members which breeds its use BY members.
I live two doors down from his luxurious home (after he died and his wife sold the home) and have heard the most amazing stories from his neighbors that knew him. The home is 10,000 sq ft with 7 bedrooms and 7 bathrooms. He was a very strange man with a stranger wife. Apparently his wife needed wealth and when she wanted new things he would write a new book to provide for her. Integrity is everything and he had none. My parents played his cassette tapes constantly. The other favorite cassette of theirs was a lady that made the LDS circuit telling about how she was a catholic nunn that was almost killed by head hunters. She could also tell a great story and it was also total lies.
I was a neighbor as well, and I was Jeanne's visiting teacher. I have to say that when we went to her home it always felt dark and so
Unhappy. Could never understand it ?
Geeeeze
This church is full of so many lies !!
KaaBee yes I do
They lived very a closed-off life. Usually a visiting teacher or home teacher weren’t welcomed. I knew one VT that was let in, but that was the exception. His wife was paranoid of someone breaking in. She planted thorny bushes under every window, and put deadbolts on every upstairs bedroom. Her reason was that if someone used a ladder to gain entrance, the deadbolt would prevent them from gaining access beyond that bedroom. The male neighbors next door and another across from them ran into Paul outside of the neighborhood and tried to talk to him. He asked if they were golf pros and was surprised to find that they were his neighbors for over five years. Paul’s study was the nicest room I’ve ever seen. It must be 25x40 feet with a huge fireplace, paneling and rows of bookshelves that you walk between like a library. It sits on a double lot that was apparently given them by Merrill Osmond who was going to build on the second lot, before financial troubles from fraud. The family room fireplace had a cooking grate that Paul used to cook himself a steak every night.
Oh. You’re asking about the current people who live there? She is a former friend that I have no fondness for. Just over a year ago, I went to her to tell her that I was separated from my husband, would be finalizing my divorce soon and planned on moving away as soon as possible to move in with my girlfriend. Her response was, “Oh, Linda. You mean your Girlfriend!” Then she visibly gagged and made the most disgusting face. Can’t stand her! She bullied me once via text to the point I called the suicide hotline and was hyperventilating. I was trying to tell her about ladies I was visiting teaching that felt ostracized in the neighborhood because they didn’t have enough money. She was arguing that it was impossible. The neighborhood was the most accepting and loving people she knew. She accused me of lying and having an agenda for saying so.
Dang, I seem to be going on a Mormon-scandal marathon with these episodes, here! Hadn't watched this one yet, wow. What a tale. I hadn't even known of Paul Dunn before watching this episode, although the name is somehow familiar to me even so, so maybe I've somehow heard of it before today. All I think that I need to say is that I'm super grateful to Lynn for his diligence and work into putting all these pieces together. It wouldn't have come to light as well without him. 💚
Wow! That was a lot. I sat in a front row seat at a conference when Dunn spoke in 1968 and I took it hook , line and sinker. I feel very betrayed. Thank you Mr.Packer for your courage.
In 1989 one of the assistants in my mission, who was a huge Paul H. Dunn fan, arranged for him to come and talk to a bunch of us. The chapel was full of missionaries, it was summer and the AC wasn't on so it was hot. After the first hour or so, our attention and excitement began to ebb. He recited these stories by rote, with no passion, excitement, or even tonal inflection. He was as bored as we were. He spoke for, as I remember, five hours. Maybe it just felt that way. Missionaries were slumped over in their seats, sleeping or trying to stay awake. He finally stopped mid-story and said, "Well, you've given up on me so I'll give up on you," and finished. On the way back to our areas, I rode along with the assistant who had arranged for Paul H. Dunn to speak and he was just gushing about the whole thing. I remarked that I had listened to the spirit during those stories, and the spirit told me that Paul H. Dunn was not telling the truth. And it had. That assistant tore me up one side and down the other and went about trying to make my life miserable for months afterwards. He was kind of a bitch anyway. His name was Clanton. Turned out I was right. I'm glad that I had that experience and it has served me well over the years, strengthening my testimony, and helping me understand the difference between what the spirit says is true and what is just an appeal to emotion. I'm still active.
I LOVE THIS MAN! So genuin and sharp as a knife!! We need moore writers like him!!
As a young convert, I had heard all these wonderful stories about Paul Dunn. After attending an enthusiastic Devotional I almost ran into him while he was heading to his car. As I got closer to him I saw man whose dark character showed in his face and I altered course. I told my Branch President about this encounter and said he seemed like an untrustworthy man with a dark soul (forgive the "churchy" talk) and I felt guilty as all others seemed to worship him. However, I was a foreign student who had been raised around farm animals. Was not surprised years later.
Egotistical people thrive in the church. My former husband was a convert so he was put on a pedestal. He also was a great story teller so when this happened to Paul dunn we were asked if we were related because our last name was dunn. My husband would laugh and say no but that he could tell better stories. He's still on that pedestal even after leaving me for someone 12 years younger. Always called to be the young men's president even in his 60s. I left the church 10 years ago and am a much happier person. I found out who Jesus really is much more than my big brother and Satan's brother. I always questioned but was afraid to leave until after my divorce. My former husband didn't want to hear my questions because he was so caught up in the culture and was very popular in the ward even though he didn't care to much for the temple stake conference or general conference like me. We considered conference days a day off.
Jesus is our savior, not our brother
Thank you for sharing your story!
Congratulations on your strength and wisdom. May God bless you and surrounds you with love.
@@bargeiger50 "This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased" So this naturally tells us that Jesus is our big brother as we are all children of Our Heavenly Father!
@ Polly Dunn I've always called Jesus my big brother too! 🌟
“feelings lie”. I’ve learned the hard way not to put much faith in my “good feelings.”
Mormons don't think that they are depraved sinners, since they justify themselves with good works in an attempt to gain salvation. Their Jesus' salvation only kicks in once you are perfect according to the Book of Mormon, something impossible to do.
Paul Dunn.. never letting the truth get in the way of a good story.
One could easily replace Paul's name with Joseph Smith Jr., that is "Joseph Smith... never letting the truth get in the way of a good story."
Thank you Lynn a true man of integrity
My favorite video. Absolutely do another one Brother Packer. The church needs more sunlight.🌺
I downloaded the book tonight on my Kindle. I remember hearing Dunn speak when I was a teenager, was a very emotionally touching speaking that was very convincing.
Thank You Lynn & John
So glad to see that honest journalism won out in the end, even if most people have never even heard this.
I’m watching this and remembered that my dad got scammed by a general authority person that claimed he was starting a medical insurance business. He asked ten business investors for a hundred thousand dollars. My dad gave the guy the money and never heard from him again. I will have to look up the name to see who it was. I don’t think it was Paul Dunn.
Would be interested to know who that was.
I swear to gosh, the second anointing makes GA even worse of people. It allows them to say and do whatever they want without feeling guilty about it. They can steal, scam, murder, cheat, they don't care. Oh but as long as they never deny the holy ghost, or God, or Christ, they are saved.
Love this interview. Lynn has great integrity. So refreshing! Just bought his book! 😊
My parents converted in 1969. My father was totally enamored with Dunn and was livid when Dunn was given emeritus status. I was too young to understand.
We lived in the Boston mission where Dunn was Mission President - my dad converted first. President Dunn became close friends with my aunt who converted in Boston. He did do some good, but it’s a shame he felt the need to lie like he did.
It helps to keep my faith in humanity alive to see that there is a beacon of sanity and honesty in an otherwise bastion of madness that is the state of utah
Paul Dunn speeches were a key tool in converting process. When prospects "Mr. and Mrs Brown" have committed to go cold turkey from smoking and drinking was a crucial moment and Dunn's narratives were perfect encouragement, creating a spirit driven meeting. Dunn's rationale to spin tales makes sense when you come to realize the whole Mormon story is a whopper.
My father was in world war 11 and it was my experience that the people who saw the most action never talked about it and very often felt survivors guilt as they knew there survival was very often by chance or luck.
This is brilliant, thanks so much. Paul Dunn was a favorite of mine growing up and was actually benched while I was in the MTC. Really great series of episodes.
I believe there is a Lions Led By Donkeys podcast episode about this guy. One of many examples of stories I recognize as an outsider but can't fully appreciate because I don't speak Mormon. This window into your whacky little world affords me so much insight into stories which I can only grasp at the edges of. Thank you for translating.
Also don't speak Mormon, but I'm getting better at it
Paul H Dunn was the beginning of the end for me. I listened to his tapes leading up to the mission, clearly feeling the spirit. Then finding out mid mission it was all lies, made me start the questioning.... this does not ad up.... what else is there?
My mom must be laughing in heaven. Apparently my folks knew the Dunns (from an early ward). She told me they were snooty!
He was my father's mission president in Maine (where my parents met around 1970), so they knew them.
Interesting. I was at BYU '66-70' and I remember these stories at Devotional. It was a mandatory class and could be heard all over campus.
This story confirms my choice to stay away from any organized religion.
Good choice. Mine as well after leaving mormonisn after 43 years of indoctrination.
Such an interesting topic. Thank you for your work, Lynn.
I have always told people never Get between a Mormon in his money they will chew you apart love the story love the story
This also applies to other Christian denominations. Stop being a bigot and open your eyes to what is happening throughout ALL of Christianity.
@@1sirteddles except Mormons always say they're in the true church, have more truths in other words they should not behaving badly!
@@1sirteddles It sounds like you're saying that because other organizations have this particular problem it's OK that mormons do.
Such a great interview!
Watching this again and seeing Dunn speak makes me so embarrassed that I used to gobble up these sugary stories as a youth. I remember Dunn well from the So Cal firesides in the 1970's. We always liked BYU & USC in my home. I am related to Elder Haight so it is interesting to see him here. I feel that you don't hear much about him
Paul Dunn’s great need for adulation and need for being recognized and honored reflects that he may have been a narcissist. A narcissist never admits wrong and never will retract a lie. I know this because a relative interviewed him for his last book a few years before his death and his position was that he was set up by Church leaders. In his words, he did no wrongs!
A narcissist, like many church leaders today (e.g., President Nelson) and in the past (e.g., Joseph Smith) will never admit their wrongs or be honest about truths that don’t make them to good.
SAD!!!
This is really great. I teach Media Literacy at a small college, and it's our only real class dealing with media issues, and it's mostly an elective, and I spend a lot of time talking about how much the explosion of the Internet undermined a golden age of journalism and accountability.
WOW..!! My Greatest respect to Lynn Packer who had the intuition and courage to follow his truth..
The church no longer aspires to godly truth, but only to the vain aspirations of some earthly lying priesthood members .
I have so much respect for you, John Dehlin, our 'earthly prophet' for having the courage to openly air this podcast... !!
Lynn Packer is incredible, thank you for this John
Dear Mr. Lynn Packer. Thank you very much for your efforts. I greatly appreciate to stand out for truth. It is one of the basic pillars for trust love and progress as a society. I was very dissapointed how the officers of the church handled it. Your explanation is enlightning. I get the breatherens concerns, but truth has to be the base of human interactions. Else nothing will stand. As a German i believe we have a record of history which proves that. The German psychologist Erich Fromm said. All Tyrans proclaim that all they wandted is the best for all others. My take on it is the parabels of the wheat and the terars who might give the best answer. It is clear cut as a knife. Very imprssively protrayes here. Downside is some wheat might be destroyed and cancer spreads. If evil is not apposed and greatly rewarded dishonesty is bread. And the sense of doing injustice is lost. But in my mind there is a reason the lord from time to time takes tha road. Thank you both for your efforts and enjoy. I believe it gives all the answeres.
ua-cam.com/video/3sjPSaG4E34/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/kKz3C4jGL0c/v-deo.html
ua-cam.com/video/2y_Aez-MAUQ/v-deo.html
I’m out of the church and I can’t see myself ever going back. While inactive for a couple decades I had positive feelings about my past involvement and the church generally. Just ‘no longer for me.’ The wide-spread support for Trump changed all of that.
The wide spread Trump support was the beginning of the end of my love, for my church. The hatred and chaos and fighting and people shunning me bc I’m a liberal.. Mormon maga’s truly did me the biggest favor of my life.
My husband left me after 25 yrs during this time, so it was a lot of abandonment.
He was fully supported by the church, in leaving me bc of my lack of faith.
The Mormon church, is/has always been conservative. Of course the vast majority will vote that way. Extreme beliefs=extreme judgement. Good people won't judge you for a difference in opinions/views.
Thanks for sharing this story
It's wild hearing about how the church hit a point of choosing feelings or facts, but even more so when you consider it probably wasn't only the Mormons who hit that point. And that makes a lot of sense for current day situations in regards to both the political situation we're in and issues that have been showing up in schools of kids struggling with recognizing logical fallacies and critical thinking skills. I know there are many other factors at play, but this is a new perspective added to the mix for me.
Great production on the dynamics of Stolen Valor by Paul H Dunn and other General Authorities,
Thanks this broke my shelf at 20. Last straw.
Blessings Lynn and John and all those speaking truth.
Lynn Packer, is so professional & courageous! Wow! ❤️👍🏾
I was always suspicious of all the stories Thomas Monson told. I’ve often marveled at his endless stories about widows. And always with a tear in his eyes. And I look at my mother who longs for her husband and think she might get some comfort by going to the temple but can’t because she can’t afford to pay tithing. So next time you see a General Authority in conference weeping over the lectern about some poor widow, just remember they don’t care enough about them to allow them in the temple without paying first.
Pres. Monson was a bishop of a ward with literally dozens of widows, so of course he would have lots of stories about widows.
@@jjohnson7936 Yeah I know. Did you get my point about how they are treated?
@@Djarvis2
No he didn't get it
What a lovely man! Courage and hard work, modesty. God bless.
Lynn Packer's work was and is so important
I always wondered how monson had so many stories. Lots of widows and train sets and feeling the spirit.
"Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you believe it" George Constanza
I didn't know what I was getting into when I started watching this program. WOW...another stinky layer of this raw LDS onion pulled back. I was a " golden " member for 15 yrs, I have been free for 13 yrs. I still have Post Traumatic 15 years in the LDS Church Syndrome. I had never heard about Paul Dunn while I was " in ", but then not until I was " out " I never knew JS had more than one wife 🙄
I admire your work John. I wish there was a community Catholic Stories.
Honored Douglas!
Catholics as a general rule aren't as culty as Mormans. Nothing changed in my family life when I left the Church.
@@markvonwisco7369 they also don't hunt you down, ruin your career, or take away your place in heaven!
I'm a member. Questioning and researching. Hearing Paul H. Dunn's lies exposed makes physically nauseous.
With the benefit of hindsight, Paul Dunn must have known that at some point, someone would realize all his stories were fabricated. Personally, when I became of aware of him being exposed, it made me feel quite gullible. The thing is, it never occurred to me at the time that a general authority would lie. My thanks to John and Lynn for this fantastic series of interviews!
My faith is in Jesus Christ. He is my Saviour and Redeemer, not Joseph Smith Jr, Brigham Young or Paul H. Dunn. I am not one iota embarrassed: the Lord will judge him, and the scriptures make it plain that liars are cast down to Hell. My testimony is of Jesus Christ. Church leaders are NOT infallible and have never claimed to be so. JohnDehlin is just another apostate with an axe to grind. I will watch the video, but I am not going to leave the Church over the failings of one man. BTW, why don't these apostates ever recognise the downfall of Protestant and Catholic leaders, as well as JWs? I get a story of other Christian leaders leaving the ministry and becoming atheists at least once a week in my email Inbox. The whole of Christianity is under threat and all these apostates can do is piss all over the Church and its leaders. They are NOT Christians by any measurable criteria.
@@1sirteddles I doubt anyone here left the church just because of Paul Dunn. As for me, it's just one more thing in a long list of problems with the church. I'm happy the church works for you. It no longer works for me.
All his stories were NOT fabricated! I have a copy of an extensive interview (4 humble hours) he gave of his life and his stories to my aunt, a journalist. He wanted her to publish his life story after his death because he felt it inappropriate against his accusers while he was alive. Later, he changed his mind and asked her not to publish the book. Sadly, he was alienated by the leaders in the First Presidency and Apostleship.
Within the past ten years, she contacted the Church leaders about this interview. A return letter unkindly DEMANDED that she return all copies of the interview as she described it to them. As if she was keeping church documents of her own from them.
Paul Dunn was USED as a scapegoat by the Church leadership. If in doubt, Ask his wife!!!
How does receiving a leaked copy of an opponents tax returns make Bro Packer better than his accusations? At least Paul Dunn inspired others for good.
@@gailcapshaw397 You're making claims that have no support. Take the baseball stories... if they really happened, it would be oh so easy to verify. Say what you will about baseball, but the sport is meticulous when it comes to keeping records. Please show me any evidence that he played major league baseball. You can't, because he never did. Using lies to inspire others to do good doesn't cut it for me. Now, this isn't to say that everything that came from his mouth was a lie. I don't think anyone is really claiming this. But his most sensational stories were just that - stories. Too bad he didn't present them as parables...that would have worked out much better for him. And the fact that he put out a public statement stating that this was the case puts the burden of proof on you to prove otherwise.
The ends don't justify the means.@@gailcapshaw397
Stolen Valour??what an absolute insult to the millions of young men who never saw home again
I like this show. John has good content. Thank you for your interview Lynn
ty for your research and care
My Mission Pres. I was 25 and recently baptized. I was a foster child and looked at him as a father figure. The adversary seemed destined from the time I was 2 when Mother died and dad had mental problems. And it is ongoing the reasons to quit depending on the Lord. Listening to this has been an eye opener. I didn't want to watch it.
Dunn was my father's mission president too & met my mom in Maine then.
The idea of the church being my parent makes my BPD make much more sense. My "parent" is a narcissistic lying gaslighter.
I purchased Lynn's book years ago. It's a noteworthy piece of work.
And people wonder why apostates are so cynical about Mormonism and even Christianity.
Kent Thalman
They seem to either turn to the real Jesus, or lose faith altogether.
@@ericb.1384 leaving Mormonism and religion altogether had been wonderful for me personally. However it is not easy to live in a country dominated by Christian religiosity.
Why is Jesus real but not Odin or Thor or Allah or Buddha or any of the thousands of other human created gods in our collective human history?
Have you ever thought to question HOW you arrived at your conclusion? Have you questioned your own motivation for maintaining a religious faith? Is it that you simply prefer there to be some greater meaning to your life? Or that it is preferable to believe we get to keep living after death?
I would prefer a life after death but all the evidence gathered throughout human history suggests we simply die. The fact is that humans have believed in thousands of gods over tens of thousands of years. The gods of each era are the product of the human zeitgeist in that period.
We live and we die. This is our one life. Cherish and make the most of it.
@@Ether-pb5gb sin is a construct of humans based on our collective human experience. There is no cosmological being keeping tabs on what you do. It’s just you tracking you. Own your mistakes as you see them. Be patient with yourself as you grow from them.
@@Ether-pb5gb we may need to each provide definitions of the terms we are using. I consider what people call divine to be part of the human experience. Just as I consider science to be part of the collective human experience.
Brain scan observations show where spiritual/divine experience occurs in the brain. Science and human psychology are fairly good and providing sound explanations as to how these occur and the evolutionary mechanisms which lead to humans developing religious ideas.
@@Ether-pb5gb commonly explained by the simple fact we humans have amazing hallucinatory experiences which can manifest for a myriad of reasons. Severe PTSD induced visions, hallucinogenic compounds, sensory deprivation chamber induced visions, deep meditation, ritualistic induced visions, sleep paralysis states where eyes SEE apparitions in the room. All easily explained by the fact that two areas of the brain are in different waking and unconscious states. The miraculous and what appear to be spiritual experiences of humans don’t prove a supernatural beyond. They are every day occurrences that science continues is continuing to unravel and explain.
Nearly all past mysteries of human existence have been fully or mostly explained and understood by science. There are many mysteries left but we needn’t chalk them up to ghosts and fairy tales anymore. We can be humble and accept the fact the universe is vast beyond human scope. With that there is our lucky life evolving and becoming sentient. It’s quite miraculous yes, but wholly explainable and understandable through science.
l went to BYU when Paul J Dunn spoke. The students loved him.
He talked to all who waited in
line afterwards. He kissed me
on the cheek
This is sad to listen to. as Paul H Dunn was very loved.
@@Ether-pb5gb John 1:8
If we say we have no sin, we decieve ourselves and the truth
is not in us.
@@Ether-pb5gb Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is not a righteous
man on earth who does good
and never sins.
@@Ether-pb5gb Romans 3:23
For all have sinned and fall
short of the glory of god.
"I know this church is true"......at least the part that manipulates the emotions and lives of people who want to be a part of something warm and fuzzy in their heart.
The Church is true because Jesus Himself came to me with three of His Angels, and they told me that the Church is the Bridegroom's true Bride.
@@1sirteddles doubt that
For the life of me, I cannot fathom how Dunn got away with these lies for so long. The war stories I can understand. Millions of people served in World War II, and many of the battles were utter chaos from start to finish. Many heroic acts were never reported, let alone officially recognized. But, and compared to war, this is petty; baseball fans are statistics freaks. Even in the pre-Internet days, it would have taken almost no effort to look up his record in any number of baseball almanacs published every year and find that he had no record. I find it hard to believe that there was never a baseball fan that heard one of his talks or read one of his books and never tried to look up his baseball record.
It's as if no one wanted to know the truth. This episode, and the LDS church's reaction to it, proves that it is a cult.
Larry Rouse,
There were at least 3 levels of professional baseball. From top to bottom there was:
*Major League Baseball (MLB)
*AAA Baseball where many MLB players are sent to regain confidence after either an injury or performance slump
*AA Baseball.
The AAA, and AA leagues were collectively referred to as minor leagues. At the time of Holland's introduction of Dunn in the video, I was a BYU student and I had read "Win if You Will" by Dunn. I could match a name to a face of almost every player in the MLB so I was a knowledgeable fan.
I simply thought that Dunn was a AA Baseball player. Does your local library have AA Baseball almanacs dating back to 1942? (Mine did not, and still does not have almanacs from that decade.) Will you reply to my comment with a link to a website that shows AA Baseball statistics since 1942?
Note: 1942 would have been Dunn's 18th birthday.
It is in conceivable that Dunn would have played in the minor league more than 2 years prior to his 18th birthday, and in this video within a video, Holland said Dunn was with a minor league player for 4 years. So 1942 is a good starting point.
@@ieatoutoften872 I’m fully aware of how professional baseball is structured.
He claimed to have played for the Saint Louis Cardinals. When confronted with evidence of his fabrications, he justified them as necessary to illustrate his theological and moral points. He even compared them to Jesus’ parables.
He did apparently briefly play in the minors, but he told people In person and in his books that he played Major League Baseball with the Cardinals. That is a bald faced lie.
@@larryrouse6322 ,
Dunn said and wrote that he played in the minor leagues for the Cardinals organization which is different from what you and others have accused him. Dunn never said or wrote that he played on the MLB Cardinals team. Lyn Packard, who evidently did not understand the structure of professional baseball, made that accusation.
Anybody who knows how baseball is structured knows the difference between an "MLB team" and an "MLB organization" (with minor league teams that are named differently than its flagship MLB team).
I have one of Paul H. Dunn's books. I listened to one of Paul H. Dunn's church talks.
Open challenge to anyone: Find me where or when Paul H. Dunn said he played for the MLB Cardinals. In Dunn's book, "Win if You Will", Dunn wrote that Dunn played minor league professional baseball. In a letter to qualify his public apology, Dunn doubled-down saying he never lied about playing in the minor leagues.
"The events which I have described from my own life, including my war assignments and professional minor-league baseball affiliations were actual experiences. I wish to clarify that I have never fabricated, never created fictional stories about myself. I have experienced the events I have related."
Dunn claims to have signed a contract in 1941 to play in the minor leagues as a pitcher in 1942, but Dunn never actually played in the minor leagues until 1947 because of the Second World War. There is a record of Dunn being assigned to a minor league team in 1947.
Sometimes you can't find evidence for a claim that is true, though. For example, I'm not in the picture for my high school basketball team during senior year because I wasn't at school that day. But no one would be able to tell the story of why I'm not in the pic except for me and my teammates. When you're talking about minor league ball, those teams have no real budget and are often owned by some real characters who aren't super honest or organized. So it's like, if someone couldn't find him in an A or AA program, it could probably be explained away. Not everyone is going to check every aspect of every story the way Packer did. Like in my case, you could find me referenced in articles in the local paper if you really dug. But if you're just talking to a guy from church, how far are you actually going to dig? In most cases he would be able to explain these things away with a plausible story and people would not have looked any deeper.
Edit(it is apparent that Paul Dunn was suffering from Narcissistic Personality Disorder, in a way he couldn't help who he was)
I think we (all the way to the top) need to take the counsel in D&C 121:34-40 to heart. I get that leaders think they might be protecting the church, but "covering our sins" is strickly named as one of these things that withdraws the powers of heaven. So when we, as a community of Christ or Church of Christ, try to guide our sins and aspire to look good to the world ( aspire to the honors of men) we have grieved the Spirit. The apostolic authority may be conferred upon the body of church, but it seems like we have disqualified ourselves from the actual power in every way listed in that scripture
If he was sick if they knew his problem THEN there is no way that they should have given him assignments in front of the public!!
NPD is a personality disorder, and if Dunn was one he certainly knew what he was doing. These types do not change, and the best course of action when dealing with them is to walk away. They will take advantage of you if you give them any pity or pander to their "illness".
This church worship of Mormon "celebrities" always got on my nerves as a TBM. I felt it was unfair to put them in the position of speaking for the church just because they were famous and it left no room for any personal deviance from lock, stock, and barrel mormonism. People would sit in the chapels hanging on the speaker's every word. This is how the church works - use any means possible to convince you to stay put - even appealing to any authority figure, however irrelevant.
Bei, ALL Christian denominations do it, so why just pick on Latter-day Saints?
I remember as a youth having to memorize All the Articles of Faith and the one that comes to mind is…”Being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, and doing good in All things”!! Knowing all the while my Apostles were lying through there teeth to get what they wanted $$!! I’m hurt and angry that I conformed and waisted my young life believing all their untruths! I’m just now at 61 realizing how much of a lie I conformed to! I always knew I didn’t fit in to the walk the walk and talk the talk! But when I went to the temple I absolutely knew I was in the twilight zone! My relationship with my Heavenly Father is just that between Him and I! Don’t need organized religion for that! That’s what they make you believe is you can’t make it to the next life without the Mormon church and that isn’t true!! Thank you John Dehlin and Lynn Packer for always bringing the Truth!
I have heard more strange stories from one the of seventies specifically South African,one included an incident during his mission whereby his companion was run over by truck but instead of being hurt, he went through the truck's door, at that time i was working as the CES Director in East Africa. It seems to me as if the General Authorities believe that the moral codes do not apply to them.
Someone should fact check Monson because most of his stories seem as legit as Dunn’s.
Agreed
I hated -- I mean HATED -- Thomas Monson's speaking voice. He always sounded so sweet and so phony. I never said anything to anyone -- because so many of my peers LOVED Elder Monson (or President Monson -- later down the line). I hated -- HATED -- the sound of his voice AND his stupid stories.
@@jeffcarlin5866 me too!
@@jeffcarlin5866 Kind of like Nelson's. He's as authentic as the truth claims of the church.
@@jeffcarlin5866why TF do they all speak on that “conference voice”?
It’s so freaking weird
Paul was in my Stake and he was invited to come all the time to Stake dinners and breakfasts. He came when he could but he stopped showing his face when this happened.
Thank you Lynn!
Dunn's motto: don't let truth get in the way of a good story.
We should do one on George P Lee And his x communication
I was at BYU fall 80 and winter 81. President Holland was inaugurated president in 1980. I attended a devotional when elder Dunn spoke and that clip you showed of president Holland’s introduction was possibly from that devotional
I first felt “the spirit” at a Paul H. Dunn fireside in my stake. This was part of the foundation of my testimony.
I saw so much of this in my 30 years in the church. Tragic. 😢
My mother told me that she named me "Paul" after Dunn. Fuck that! I would have rather it be that she was rogered by a Beatle! This was part of my undoing...… but it really came down to DNA... I was out by 2002. Long story, but the last couple of years watching folks become woke to the fraud and fallacy of Mormonism has been mildly affirming. Even though I know first hand the weight and pain, oh boy do I, I am glad that I did not straddle my children with this absolute bullshit.
My great grandfather was shot in WW11 and he never talked about it. Most veterans don't. My grandpa and I are doing genealogy and family history and are trying to get his army records. Covid has made it hard.
Fabulous interview
Did his wife know he was lying?
I wondered the same.
Excellent episode. It is unfortunate and ironic that John wore a hat promoting an MLM in an episode about scams and frauds. But this was a while ago so I'm sure he knows better now.
This is fantastic content! Wow! 👍🏾❤️👍🏽❤️ Paul makes Superman look shabby! Even Holland is in awe! Paul did everything but write the Book of Mormon!
Slowly it unravels, “line upon line, precept upon precept” !