DNA and the Book of Mormon | Ep. 1594 | LDS Discussions Ep. 05
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- Опубліковано 10 лип 2024
- While God (in the D&C), Joseph Smith, and most Mormon Prophets certainly knew who the Lamanites were, DNA Science has put the modern Church in a precarious position. Today, The Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints claims not to know anything about who and where the descendants of the Book of Mormon people are even though the record was explicitly preserved for them.
Join John, Mike, and Gerardo as they discuss how the LDS Church has responded to DNA Studies that show that Native Americans are the descendants of eastern Asian populations instead of Israelites.
LDS Discussions Essay on DNA and the Book of Mormon: www.ldsdiscussions.com/dna
Chapters:
00:00:00 Introduction
00:03:18 DNA and the Book of Mormon
00:09:55 Changing One Word That Changed Everything
00:10:35 The problem that DNA poses for the Book of Mormon
00:14:54 Carefully worded statements to diminish the scientific findings
00:21:28 Three examples of DNA in America before the Book of Mormon
00:27:31 The Retrofitting of larger populations in the Book of Mormon
00:28:30 There were no other civilizations in the Book of Mormon
00:33:48 Joseph Smith undermines apologetic efforts
00:35:43 God (through Joseph) undercuts other populations, too.
00:43:42 The problem that DNA created for the Book of Mormon
00:45:20 Apologetic responses to DNA and the Book of Mormon
00:47:38 Science on DNA is “tentative”
00:52:09 The evolution of DNA studies from Mormon Stories:
00:54:36 The Book of Mormon people were just a tiny group in a big world
00:57:33 There is NO textual evidence for other people
00:58:45 Understanding the basics of DNA - Mormon Stories Episode
00:59:18 Poisoning the well - DNA Can’t tell us about the Book of Mormon
01:02:00 Applying the essay’s logic outside of the Book of Mormon
01:05:15 Apologetics: Questioning the dating of the arrival of people to america. (As honest as the LDS church can be.)
01:06:50 This is why I stress the need for apologetics to be consistent!!
01:10:05 The church continues to muddy the waters
01:12:00 Scientists can’t rule it out
01:14:00 An example of a small migration to the Americas
01:17:00 We don’t know what to look for: The Founder Effect
01:17:47 Problems with the Founder Effect and the Book of Mormon
01:20:40 The problem is that we know exactly what to look for
01:22:33 Surprises in DNA testing mean we can’t know anything?
01:25:00 Mormon prophets, seers, and revelators weren’t confused
01:29:10 Church Manuals Weren’t Confused Until DNA Testing
01:30:20 Population Bottleneck
01:32:43 Problems with the population bottleneck
01:35:00 More on population bottlenecks
01:37:30 Genetic Drift of DNA and the Book of Mormon
01:38:05 Throwing Everything Against the Wall and Hoping Something Sticks
01:41:55 Cherry Picking Studies to Make the Book of Mormon Plausible
01:44:08 Jamie Hanis Handy Sums It Up So Well
01:45:00 The Church’s Conclusion, and One More From Jamie Hanis Handy
01:47:45 The Church Treats Book of Mormon People like Heavenly Mother
01:49:45 Stealing the Identities of Native Americans and Polynesians
01:52:15 Conclusion on DNA and the Book of Mormon
Show Notes: www.mormonstories.org/podcast...
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LDS discussions saved me during my faith crisis 3.5 years ago. I was pregnant with my 4th baby and had 3 under the age of 5 running around. My brain was fried trying to sort through so many historical documents. He helped me make sense of the gospel topics essays and put everything I was already compiling in one place. I went from flipping through ~40 open tabs to just opening up LDS discussions and having everything in one place. Thank you thank you thank you, “Mike.”
What is NeverMormons don’t understand is Whyyyy the need to sort through stuff when these are blatantly false fabrications from Joseph Smith?
This is the nicest comment I could ever hope to see. I'm so very very glad that the site was helpful to you as you tried to figure all of this out - that is all i was ever hoping to accomplish. :)
0
What was your outcome?
As someone whose family was "encouraged" to assimilate into white culture, joining the church was probably one of the worst things to have happened to my ancestors! Not only were their lands taken, forced to migrate elsewhere, stolen from their homes to attend residential schools, forced to live in white "civilized" people's homes, punished for speaking their language and practicing their cultural rituals... on top of that the LDS church taught them to not trust their tribal elders with history, purpose, and practice, rather, to trust some phony book that JS made up and compiled from various sources. Over the generations my family has put away all native cultural practices, stories, language, and community opting instead for the church's practices, stories, language and community. Since leaving the church 1.5 years ago, I have been DESPERATELY trying to reconnect with my native heritage, with a very small amount of success. I am so far removed from my tribe that has a dying language and a trifurcated home base ALL BECAUSE THE CHURCH PASSED THE BOM OFF AS PURE HISTORY that contained none of the "wicked traditions of my fathers". DNA evidence crushed me; it crushed my identity. The beauty and truth was in our heritage, and my family was manipulated by the church into denying that truth and beauty. Keep speaking up! This work is vital! Thank you for the emotional labor you put into each episode- Mormon Stories has truly been a lifeline through a difficult and painful transition! Love to you all!
I am so sorry this happened to you. Good luck in your journey.
When Mormons ask why former Mormons “can’t leave the church alone,” this is why. The church destroys people with its lies. Joseph Smith was a horrible person, and the modern leaders of the church are just as guilty for continuing to push “truths” that they know to be complete lies.
I am so sorry this happened to you and wish you the best in reconnecting with your culture. My uncle was also part of the church "program" and although I feel grateful to have him in my life, I know at times it's been difficult for him. Luckily for him, he joined a group while in college dedicated to carrying on his culture and I know it really helped him. Again, best of luck to you.
YR HERITAGE IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR YR EXISTENCE!
KE E P LOOKING FOR YR ANCESTORS SWEETHEART:
*YR ANCESTORS ARE LOOKING FOR YOU:*
PLEASE TRUST THAT GOD WILL BE THE CONNECTION:
PRAY THIS ONE PRAYER OF YR HEART TO FIND THEM:
ASK GOD TO FIND THEM: DO THIS DAILY.....
"LORD JESUS FIND MY ANCESTORS ":
BLESSINGS TO YOU & YR FAMILY ❤
I'm guessing what native tribe you are from, since I work on a reservation and have heard many stories of this. Makes me so upset to see how those people were treated and abused. I won't call out what tribe, but if you want to connect with me, I'd love that!
Former "Lamanite," here, no longer waiting to become "white and delightsome." There was no formal announcement made to Native Americans either, just quiet word of mouth. This shameful doctrine was conjured up by another man-made religion bent on control, instilling fear, and trying to keep up with that other powerful church in collected riches. My DNA analysis indicates I'm East Asian, NOT Israeli- the church's (false) prophets never anticipated this scientific development. I do believe they prophesied their own demise though: the fall of the great and abominable church..."and great was the fall thereof." I have my popcorn ready... lol
Well said 👌🏻
My girlfriend is from Peru Latina not LDS never wants to be. Her DNA is from Mongolia not Israel.
as a former lamanite with a biology degree, I approve this message
The "lamanite" on this podcast has a Spanish surname. The Moors(middle eastern) controlled Spain for centuries, the Spanish have some middle eastern DNA, so he might very well have middle eastern DNA. I think it would just show up as DNA from Spain though. Just saying, ironic isn't it.
Don’t get too settled in you new temporary racial group, things are changing with new research! “The only constant is change!”
:)
@@alanfenick1103 it's been 20 years. I won't hold my breath.
So how do you know?
In like 2007 I had a guy from china tell me that the people in mexico have more in common genetically with him then Jerusalem. I honestly had no idea what he was getting at. I wish someone YEARS ago would have kindly sat me down and explained all the wholes in my religion. I wish I had known BEFORE I made all kinds of life choices based on lies.
Can you just imagine how heartbreaking it would be to have been named after a character from BOM, while having your culture and history stolen from you? _and THEN finding out it was all a lie?_
I know a guy named Moroni
@@cristianmerli5050
More like you know a guy who knows a guy named Moroni, bada bing 🇮🇹 🤌
@@coyotelong4349 nope, personally. (I wanted to use a hand sign too but this set is too limited, lol)
All a lie?
Yes,but dont throw the baby out with the bathwater,trust the real Jesus who still waits for you
Matthew11:28-30/John1:12/10:28
Ephesians 2:8-9 is better than 2Nephi 25:23
Hebrews7:24,25
1Peter2:24😊
The DNA issue strikes at the heart of the church's foundation and truth claims . They built the church on this book, and with DNA evidence, it's been in my mind proven to be a fabrication. No other evidence is required to prove this (although there is so much more). Thanks for a fantastic review of this important topic!
By the way if you can show what percent of Neanderthal DNA you have and you have the complete genetic profile of Neanderthal you've basically proven all Abrahamic religions wrong. You are showing proof of Human evolution, not creation. God didn't create the world in 7 days and then plunk Adam down on it. humans are clever monkeys not divine beings. Now that Hindu god with all the arms, she's for sure true.
Best evidence,using free agency,reach out to the God Man Jesus Colossians2:9 who says after this in v14,that ALL THE HANDWRITING&ORDINANCES AGAINST WERE NAILED TO HIS CROSS...SO TAKE THAT AS IT IS JOHN 19:30,HE CRIED IT IS FINISHED!
WHAT WAS A COMPLETE ATONEMENT
EPHESIANS 2:8-9 COMES OUT FAR BETTER THAT 2NEPHI 25:23,JUST TAKE THE GIFT
TITUS 3:5/1John1:9&5:11-13
I would think it would show they have something flawed in the DNA tests.
@@jeffk464Not necessarily, Catholics believe in evolution just that it was guided by God.
I come from the Seneca and Lenape nations. When I was introduced to the Book of Mormon it didn't take long to convert me because my people were finally being acknowledged. But for some time I keep coming up to see that it was a mistake. They shouldn't have taken advantage of me.
Why does the story always change? 1st it was North American Natives, then it was Pacific Islanders, then the Mexican Natives, then Central American were the lamenites, and oh yeah no it’s the South American Natives that are lamenites. The story is always changing.
Because it has to, it's not true.
The dna evidence is right where Joseph smith said it was right in North America, central North America check out rod Meldrum the heartland model on dna and the Hopewell Native Americans
Just like mountain meadows. First it was the Indians, then the Indians and a couple bad Mormons, then Indians and Mormons, then mostly Mormons and a few Indians, now the church admits it was just them Mormons. It’s so laughable.
Next the promised land will be on mars, and the Lehi had built a space ship
Again, a non-Mormon and believe me, utterly fascinated with Mormon history and all your subject matter. I can't get enough! Thank you so much.
I remember as a younger man how many many members were so excited about DNA studies and were so sure that this would at last prove the prophets right. Nothing like the past to put a magnifying glass on present claims. Thanks for the vid.
I’ve been struggling for quite some time and had the opportunity to play a round of golf with a member of the quorum of the 70 about six months ago. I brought up some of the personal concerns that I was having (nothing about church doctrine, more just my own observations) and he kinda went out on a limb to say that the issues that “anti-Mormon” people are bringing up is nothing new. It’s the same issues people have bringing up against the church for decades. Now I don’t know if he was straight up lying, if this was something that he was being fed by the 12 to tell struggling members, or if he really believes that. Clearly it was designed to prevent me from looking any further, because this DNA evidence is something new and it’s a big deal. I’m so grateful that I did not take his advice or I may still be stuck in it today.
Where are you now in your understanding and journey?
Joseph F Smith came to New Zealand and spoke at Church College...he said we were some of the decendants of Hagoth and there was no perhaps about it🤦 Thanks guys...so much resonates🌹
I can only imagine how frustrating it must be for Native Americans to be told they are Lamanites and have their true history white washed.
I enjoy your podcasts. I do have to do it In small doses. Even though I have not gone to the church for years I have problems with depression when I hear to much a one time. It took me several years to get rid of my garments even after I quit wearing them. It amazing to me how hard it is to free myself from the endoctrination.
I am sorry you are having issues with depression. I hope this experience has not kept you from praying to Jesus Christ of Nazareth of the Bible, and not the fake Jesus made up by Joseph Smith. I would recommend finding hope in the actual Bible, and draw near to God. Many Mormons I know have found a new home in the Orthodox Christian Church. I hope you learn to know the real Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and not the false Christ of the Book of Mormon. I pray He will comfort you, and help you defeat depression like He did for me. It took time, but He is faithful if you call out to Him.
Hello brother. I too have struggle with depression 43:00 from time to time. If you’ve not tried anti-depressants, please talk to a doctor about them. They can be life-changing. The best of luck to you, my friend.
This is great! Ive been an ex-Mormon for decades and just discovered this channel. I’ve been wondering how the church has been dealing with DNA and modern archaeology. They certainly DID teach us in the sixties that ALL the population of the Americas came from the Middle East; that they were descended from the enslaved Jews that built the Egyptian pyramids. And that’s how they knew how to build them in the Americas. Having seen both, I was struck at how really different they are from each other, not the same at all. There’s a lot of archaeological proof that the Egyptian pyramids weren’t even built by slaves. This is a ton of fun!
It angers me that fictional characters can be made so real in the minds of the believers. How can these LDS leaders condone such deception???
They are deceivers and con men! They are simply running a multi billion dollar business and protect their business "religiously." God does not call these men like I once thought... They are men best suited to play their roll and continue the deception. I'm sure that must, if not all are connected to Masonic or similar dark groups that intentionally spread darkness instead of the light of Christ.
Fake it till you make it probably
Maybe in "the Millennium," creative types of ordinance work for the dead can be used to construct the Book of Mormon's historicity whole-cloth retroactively by proxy. Migration for the dead, smelting brass for the dead, horses for the dead, wars for the dead... If they can marry random dead people to each other, why not re-arrange history itself? 😂
Your comments wins the Internet today Poppy.
🤣🤣🤣
It's so great to have Mike's LDS Discussions because he doesn't get paid. Although I think he deserves to, it is nice to be able to have a source to point people to like the overview project that has no financial motive.
@@China-Clay I agree, but sometimes volunteer work is more effective and impactful, just depends on the person and situation. In this case, he fills a void that most content creators in the ex-mormon space don't
Don’t care if people are paid. I want people to be paid for food work. I don’t find it a conflict. Facts are facts. Logic is logic. It works and follows and is true regardless of how or if one is paid or not.
@@johnhorner1969 I agree but most TBMs would call getting paid for spiritually related work priestcraft and think they're just doing it for the money. That's why Mike/LDS Discussions work is so valuable.
@@niedrichfamily read recently the general authorities are paid yearly 120k...I don't think it Includes church related travel.i means that's great incentive to keep it true and have people believe, great salary and free travel, not to mention the hero worship attached to them, etc
@@johnhorner1969 what? You don’t care if people get paid? As long as they fill a void.
Not only did Joseph Smith want to convert the Lamanites, Joseph Smith was instructing LDS men to marry (while married to their own wives) Lamanite Indian women make his prophecy that the Lamanite Indians would become white & delight some.
Mikes work in making LDS Discussions is so important and easy to access and go over online. It was super important to my faith transition.
The only thing I’d recommend for the podcast is that if he can slow down a little bit, these topics can get kind of complicated so if he can slow a bit and go through them to let it marinate for the listener.
💯
My great uncle archeologist for the church was excommunicated from what I heard when he could not prove that the book of mormon was true. Many stories in the family why.
What’s his name?!?!
@@mormonstories last name is Harkness I can ask my dad his first name. He translated the book of mormon into Greek for the church. I have a diary in Spanish he wrote. If you remember the old paper back book of mormon it is in Spanish but has pictures of what the liahona looked like. I believe the same in the old book of mormon
@@mormonstories William Harkness I have his diary like I said. It contains the pictures like what they thought the liahona looked like in the paper back book of mormon blue top with the angel Moroni on the cover.
You can't have wars with millions of people moving and escaping and just say, "our Lamanite is in another castle". It's archaeology and genetics at scale and you can't just play it like Mario Bros on this one.
This needs more likes.
My children are First Nations and neither has Jewish DNA, but they do have Siberian DNA. There never were any people called Lamanites.
Amazing discussion. The more you study the BoM, the more you realize it's an attempt to disassociate and disown Americans from their land. Native Americans (and Latino people who are their descendants) are FROM America. When a people have been in a place for 20,000 years, they are from that place. As much as the Germans are FROM Germany and Chinese are FROM China, Native Americans are FROM America, and with the BoM, J.S. Jr. tried to eliminate that fact from our heritage.
Is that true that Latinos descended from native Americans?
@@findingcraigie Yes. Many of a us carry diverse heritages, but in general Latino people are the heritage of a mix of Spanish colonizers and Native Americans.
I think it is the opposite, the prophecies in the BOM indicate that the remnant, that being the Natives of the America Continent, will inherit the land and will triumph over the Gentiles (White people) eventually, It is very clear that this is the message throughout the BOM and then when Christ appears he spends a lot of time explaining these prophecies, it is more evident in 3 Nephi chapters 20 and 21. If the Book is false then these prophecies won't be fulfilled but the more I watch the news and what is happening in America and its borders I think this prophecy is being fulfilled or is about to be fulfilled more fully. This is obvious for those who believe it.
I'm not trying to defend Joseph Smith, but this way of looking at what he was doing is a bit anachronistic. In JS' time, the prevailing worldview of European settlers was that the best way forward for native americans was to assimilate into European culture. In a sick and twisted way, that's what the BoM thinks it's doing - help natives "civilize" themselves and have "better" lives.
Also to be fair, there is plenty of historical evidence that many native Americans in that era also believed the same. Time proved them wrong, but we can't simply discount that they too shared this delusion.
@@andrewsuryali8540 calling the BOM "sick and twisted" is something I heartily agree with.
I L❤VE the science behind this. As a medical provider, they are not only ‘hijacking the heritage’(Geraldo was brilliant with this statement!!!!) they are affecting the medical care that is tailored to specific populations…..
The contradictory nature of the apologetics around DNA is a pretty clear example of "kettle logic" (throwing spaghetti at the wall and hoping some of it sticks).
A case comes before the village elders where someone says that a neighbor borrowed their kettle and it was broken when they returned it. They demand that the borrower provide a new kettle.
In their defense the borrower simultaneously claims that 1) the kettle was intact when they returned it, 2) the kettle was broken at the time they borrowed it, and 3) they did not borrow the kettle. If any of these things can be supported then the case against them fails ... even though the exonerating scenarios are mutually exclusive.
It's easy to see why the village elders might feel like this kind of a defense is an insult to their intelligence.
Brilliant. Thank you.
Mike is brilliant at explaining in a clear, concise way. (Some of my favourite Tiktoks as well). I think his explanations could stand alone without the need for introduction or setting the scene for Mike's points. Thanks MSP for platforming Mike's skills, knowledge and experience
This chapter answered my question about why pacific island peoples have picked up LDS as a faith… because they have been told they are descendants of those who settled in the Americas. Thanks for that! Always wondered.
I was born into the church in 1975 and quit going when I was 17(when I was able to make my own decision on the matter)in 1993.My dad has continued to be a devout member and I have never once brought up the subject, I believe he would stop contacting me if I ever questioned the church and the bom to him. That's incredibly sad and disappointing to me but I really want to bring it up to him,. I hope I someday have the courage to,, a tiny part of me says to live and let live but it's still incredibly frustrating when someone you love is leading a false sense of purpose and belief system. I wrestle with this continually. I think the church ruined my life by just letting go of the reigns of responsibility by sitting back waiting for my life to unfold before me as part of the plan that I was told God had planned out for me,, and nothing ever unfolded but disappointment,, no wife or girlfriend and no quality financial stability employment. I have lived a very unsatisfactory quality of life and I am now 47. I cannot say with 100% certainty that I won't be the one that decides to no longer live out the natural process of my life because of this..
I can relate brother
I love this series! So much homework has gone into these. Thank you for making the info easily consumable and digestible.
Why doesn't the church leader simply use Joe Smiths seer/ treasure hunting stone to go find some of the coins and treasures of the BOM people?
Because it's all a lie.
People at 32:12. In New Mexico there were footprints in an ancient lake bed that shows people there 26,000 years ago. In South America there are aboriginal groups that are dated to have crossed the Clovis land mass at Alaska even longer than 30,000 years ago. So the Lamanite connection with Israelite DNA is hard to prove with science.
As a PhD anthropologist who is just learning about LDS, I am completely blown away. I had NO idea that the BOM proported to be the history of Native Americans. No wonder the church wants young people to go to BYU; we learned in my undergrad anthro classes in 1992-94 that the peopling of the Americas was from Asia.
I'm going to need time to take in the AUDACITY!
I love that now days no religion can get away with lies anymore
Why did the prophets seers and revelator’s not tell us native Americans are from Asia. What type of Revelators seers and prophets are these?
Reminds me of Ancient Aliens, "Ancient astronaut theorists suggest..." lol
With the disappearance of the civilization of the Nephites and Lamanites, the location where the BOM happened might as well be named Atlantis.
As a non-Mormon is so odd to me that it took so long for the Mormon church to admit the truth… I remember watching NOVA episodes in the 80s & 90s talking about this, as a child. It was very well established well before we could test the DNA.
You should have my sister, Dr. Kyra Krakos from MaryVille University. She is an evolutionary biologist.
I'm truly confused about how the Bering Land Bridge theory appears to have not been taught in the schools you all attended. I learned of it as a grade-schooler in the '60s. My school was just a regular public school - not cutting edge by any means. Even at that age, it was a logical conclusion just by looking at land masses on a globe and the similarities in physical features of Native Americans and Asians.
Was your school curriculum controlled by the LDS Church? Were your teachers all LDS who glossed over the curriculum? Were you taught to disregard the curriculum that countered the Church doctrine? How is it that natural curiosity, intellect, and logic were so stifled in young people of this group?
I just took a DNA test! Turns out, I'm 100 percent that bitch 😉
This is still something that persists within Polynesian circles, especially Māori.
1:03:50, John asks, "but what is cheese?" 😂. I almost died laughing. It's the exact response I received from my sister when I asked her if it's important to believe in as many true things as possible. She asks me"but what is truth?"😢
Needless to say, it's become a running joke between my partner and myself.
What fascinates and confuses me is members love the idea of ancestry genetic tests that ID their origins until the same science disproves their fundamental truth claims. To 2nd Mike’s point, if the evidence supported the claims, they would be blasted online, in church and in conference.
Just a super minor thing, about 16-17 minutes in, Mike is referring to theories and uses the law of gravity as a comparison, but the law of gravity isn't a theory, it's a law, one of a very few laws regarding the workings of the universe. Something like the theory of evolution or relativity would have been a better comparison. Other than that, super grateful to you guys for doing this and helping me realize the truth!
Gravitational theory is definitely a thing. The law is the mathematical description.
As already mentioned, when "law of gravity" is mentioned by scientists, they are talking about law in the mathematical sense. That is, it is a provable mathematical proposition. Gravitational theory is different. It's just what is currently the best (and not-yet-falsified) hypothesis on how gravity works that scientists have been able to test and verify repeatedly. This is important to remember because the theory we now have is based on Einstein's conception and supersedes the previous Newtonian model which can be falsified under certain conditions.
Gravitational theory itself isn't static. Currently there are competing theories of universal gravitation, for example quantum gravity and MOND. In a few decades, what we currently have may be falsified as well.
Hey John,
Anyone ever have the thought that LAMANITE and LAMINATE difference is the position change of two letters?
Laminate isn't a new word. Its been around since the late1600s. Meaning roughly "to beat into thin plates"
Mike is so modest. When even John compliments him he says, “I don’t know about that”. Every single time 😂
My girlfriend is Latina Peruvian geneticist still living in Peru until she can transfer her job to the US. She is still learning English but she worked on a project that they studied native people of Perú that have not interacted with society there genetics were from Asia like her's being able to go back 7 generations. They believe they came over the land bridge between Russia and Alaska before it collapsed.
The land bridge is called Beringia and it was flooded at the end of the last ice age. It’s believed to have been a refugia, a place that despite its northern latitude, was clear of ice during the last ice age. It would have looked very much like the area around Anchorage. It wasn’t so much that they “crossed” a “bridge”, rather they lived there for thousands of years, their population slowly expanding and drifting further and further into the America’s. Some areas of Beringia still exist due to continental rebound and a number of anthropologists, many of them Native American, are extremely interested in these areas as they may have some of the oldest settlements in North America. It’s an extremely exciting topic
@@platedlizard good to know I don't know how much she studied about that. She just does genetic researcher. I don't know much about that. I handle charge backs, prevent fraud, and handle credit for companies in the US and South America
This is a sincere comment... I am a year or so on my deconstruction and rebuild journey and i I found that I have gone in surges in learning and then processing and resting. Right now I'm on a surge and have to know if the Book of Mormon is true. Up to this point I have maintained that it is, but I am very driven to know for sure the truth. Obviously the biggest thing for me is to know truth no matter where it lies. One of the problems I have is that there are so many conflicting "truths" and it seems impossible to know which is really the truth and which is agenda. I have no reason to assume these discussions are agenda, but I am struggling. In my heart, I would love for the Book of Mormon to be true. It would be much less painful. But again I'm driven to no truth. One thing that I'm struggling with is carbon dating and predicting timelines because they seem to very a lot and they are meaningful. For example if people have been here for many thousands of years instead of 7,000 years that makes a huge difference in the belief of Christianity which would completely wreck my paradigm. I am worried if I find the Book of Mormon is not true, then maybe the Bible is not true and then where do I go from there? Has anyone else ever felt this? I would love some insight. And community... But most of all truth
Hey , there, I feel your pain, I was once where you are now, and I can tell you with assurance, the Bible is true and it's the only truth out there. Please keep digging. Don't give up until you have your answer. The Bible is the truth and the only truth in this fallen world. Prayers and Shalom to you. Seek, sincerely, wisdom from the Creator of everything and He will show you 🐑🔥🙏💛
@@rachaeljohnson1598 I have many of the same concerns with the bible that I have with the book of mormon. Sincerely, I would like to know how you know that it's actually true?
@MrDJBelcher she just knows because the holy spirit told her 🙄 blind faith just like mormonism. the Bible is hebrew mythology it holds as much truth as Greek or Norse mythology. those are much cooler though. if im going to follow some god I might as well follow Loki or someone actually cool
Yo Geraldo, mi primo, I did my 23 and me and I found out that I am the 99 percentile of people that have Neanderthal DNA. A couple of interesting facts; 1) I gave my daughter the nickname of Leanderthal before I even knew this, and 2) Neandertals and Homo Homo Sapiens (modern humans) existed simultaneously on this amazing Garden of Eden planet that we live on. Great stuff Mike! I appreciate all your hard work on this John and Geraldo.
My husband is too! It's not that often we run into others, so hi!
In everyday use, the word "theory" often means an untested hunch, or a guess without supporting evidence. But for scientists, a theory has nearly the opposite meaning. A theory is a well-substantiated explanation of an aspect of the natural world that can incorporate laws, hypotheses and facts.
I've been thinking a lot lately about the church's ability to rewrite its own history - in this case, pretending as though it never taught that today's Native Americans are all descended from Nephi and Lehi, which modern science has proved is not possible. Right now, we have UA-camrs and podcasters like John, Mike, and Gerardo who still remember the church's discourse from a couple decades ago, before science and the Internet became what they are today and forced the church to be more careful, curate what it writes down and keeps on its website, and to choose its public words more carefully.
I worry more and more about what will happen once this podcast eventually ends, when younger people like me and people younger than me have forgotten or never learned the mound builder myth, when no one remembers how the church adjusted the wording in the Book of Mormon, or even that the church reversed its decision on topics such as the baptism of children in LGBTQ+ families. The church already relies heavily on scaring members into not asking questions and not looking up certain things on the Internet. It deletes articles and entire people from its website. It changes church materials and destroys the previous evidence (imagine my surprise when I served my mission in a small and non-religious country that was abandoned by missionaries during a long war, and I found church-written manuals from the 70's in the church building explaining what is appropriate for married couples to do in the privacy of their own bedrooms, like ??????)
And that New Era quote from 1960! About """Lamanite""" children becoming more white and delightsome because of interracial relationships! My god. I can't even imagine how difficult it was to find and unearth that article.
I have reservations about the science behind services such as 23 and me because of my (non-mormon) friends and acquaintances who are biologists and have warned me against the way the company advertises its services. However, I will give 23 and me this - my brother got tested and they correctly identified that most of our ancestry is from a very small and specific part of the world, so obviously there is something to the science. I think the way that the company explains the science doesn't fully explain how it works.
But the way that church apologists are always holding out for scientific and historical discoveries to turn out in their favor is beyond frustrating. I've mentioned this before, but it's embarrassing how often the church changes its theories - on Nephite+Lamanite ancestry, on the locations of civilizations and battles, on so many things. Next thing you know they're going to start claiming that the BoM took place in Russia or Mongolia or something. Even when I was a believing member, I found all the theorizing to be irritating and pointless. But the more the apologists double down on trying to find non-supernatural explanations for genetics and BoM locations, the more they paint themselves into a corner.
They have to eventually choose one story - either god magicked away all BoM evidence to test his believers, or the BoM is simply not historical. My guess is the theorizing will go the way of evolution studies at BYU - there's scientific backing for a less convenient truth, but god is all powerful and why put limits on god? And that will be all the explanation that's needed. If you ask me, that should have been the story from the very beginning, because if god does exist, then yeah, he can do anything and has a long history of testing his believers' faith. But the fact that the church is desperate to find physical and scientific evidence, and that prophets have said things for decades that go against what the church now accepts (perhaps grudgingly) as science, says a lot. But the church will always conveniently pick and choose when someone is "speaking as a man," or when something in the BoM or Bible is historical or historical fiction. And in so doing, they make the holy ghost, the spirit of prophecy, and the spirit of revelation to be no more useful or powerful than random chance.
I'd reframe the "little information about contact with other cultures" line to say that there is actually extensive textual information about the Book of Mormon protagonists contacting other people groups in the region. The problem for the church is that the Book of Mormon is clear that every single population is supposed to hail from the Near East.
I didn't know about the changes because I joined in 2013. This makes me walk away further. I am a Christian at heart.
Don't walk away. Run.
If I understand genetic drift correctly and were to assume that it is possible for DNA to disappear over time, why are vast numbers of European dependents showing Neanderthal ancestors, a species that disappeared 40,000 years ago?
It takes a long long time, the Neanderthal DNA we have in us (max usually 2-3%) is significantly less than Neanderthal DNA found in older humans (there have been some found with 9%)
It’s a work fiction and whoever wrote it was making up names and words.
At the 1 hour and 31 minute mark, Gerardo is talking about 1 Nephi Chapter 13…such a great point!
How are the missionaries supposed to go and teach false doctrine after receiving scientific fact it’s not true?
Aren’t Family Search and Ancestry Mormon run companies? So the DNA test I took with both companies are wrong? How can DNA testing that they sell be right everywhere except where the BOM is concerned?
The Polynesian Cultural Center, owned and operated by the Church in Laie, Hawaii.... Isn't that basically a huge confirming monument for the very belief system that these apologetic arguments are trying to pretend were just silly assumptions that somebody made for no particularly good reason concerning the "Lamanites", who they are and where they are?
BYU also used to have a popular globe-trotting song-and-dance group called the "Lamanite Generation". IIRC, they were active up until the late 1980s or even into the 1990s. Then they changed the name to "Living Legends" or something like that. Prior to changing their name, they had no problem spotting and recruiting "Lamanites" to join the group. "Hey, you're from Puerto Rico? You're in my Lamanite friend!" "Hey, you're from Peru? Nice to have another Peruvian Lamanite in our group." "Hey, you say you're a Maori from New Zealand. You'll be a great addition to our Maori Lamanite set. Can you sing 'Karangatia Ra'?"
I married one of those Polylamanites, I was deceived. Good thing we still like each other. Had her DNA analyzed. She is still Poly, but all traces of Lamanite have disappeared. Like any truth to BOM. Science makes religious truth disappear.
Changed to Living Legends in the 90s as I distinctly remember wondering why the name change. As problematic as Living Legends is, it was very important to my childhood because it was one of the few places I saw my culture in white bread Utah celebrated. That was very important to a little brown girl in Utah County
Maybe the church could say that the events of the Book of Mormon took place in a parallel universe. Then they would no longer need apologists to explain away all of this stuff. The story could be even more powerful this way because then this message is being brought forth from another universe to be spread to all realities for our salvation.
Someone correct me if I'm misunderstanding this - the church is saying that we don't see any middle eastern DNA in the Native Americans because of things like bottlenecking or drift or whatever so that DNA isn't there anymore. It's been phased out. So....how are these people Lamanite or Lehi's descendants if, by the church's own admission, they don't have that DNA? I mean, isn't DNA what makes us what we are? Or am I misunderstanding and they're claiming that through drift and bottlenecking it's just so little Laminate DNA that made it through that we just can't identify it?
2002 first semester of college as an RM, and I learn that the ancestors of natives came across the Bering Land Bridge and my little brain almost exploded. I can see that as the beginning of the end now.
The fact that wasn’t discussed in school is crazy
They should've taught you that in elementary school!
Catholicism does not teach that the world is 6000 years old. I never even heard this until I started watching Mormon Stories.
Nope. We are not required to accept Genesis is literal history and science. We are required to believe God took a first pair and mold them Into the image and likeness of God. Genesis up to Abraham are inspired teaching stories, and we can say that because both science, faith, and logic ultimately come from God.
@@TheChenny73 I am aligned to Catholic Teaching :) . Catholics have enough sense to understand science and faith have the same source.
Mike is so humble. You are SO BRILLIANT!
I love these videos and others you've made covering the history more. You teach it very well. I just learned the church's perspective on mountain meadows and Brigham Young's history. I'd love to learn more about that one day too. Do you know where I could find more info that reliable about it?
www.mormonmatters.org/episode-3-the-mountain-meadows-massacre/
Well no wonder the church no longer has "church tours" in Mexico etc.
It’s kind of devastating to know that Helamen and Alma the younger aren’t real people. It breaks my heart. I can’t deny that I haven’t felt the spirit while reading it. But the truth is why we are in the church only to discover it is not. 😢
You guys are awesome !! Love you guys!! Great job 👍
I joined the LDS church in 1999 in Kentucky and moved to Utah. I attended the Saint George 2nd ward. I'm so glad that I found my way out of Mormonism.
Mike, you have put an incredible amount of work into these. I'm so grateful for your work Please don't lose steam! Please keep going with John, however I do have one strong suggestion. John, Mike is wanting to speed things along a little bit and the commentary that you and Gerardo did in this one and some others in the past is mostly repetitive, in an unnecessary way. I think that you would be able to highlight "the command of detail and conceptual command that [Mike] has of all these topics" if you had less repetitive comments. However, when you've had co-hosts who add personal experience to the conversation, that is subjective value that is emotionally and intellectually relatable and helps audience relate to and understand the points being made. Again, thanks for doing all of this, I do wish it was a little more to the point without the additional 30ish minutes of repetition in this one, but I love this series and hope you make all 60+. Gerardo, thanks for adding your personal perspective on your heritage, good idea to have him on this one John!
Some people like things slowed down and repeated. Others don’t. Will try to find a better balance.
This is absolutely brilliant. Kudos to you, Mike, for your attention to detail and clear explanations.
After learning a little about mitochondrial DNA, I started to wonder how things might be affected if Sariah had been Asian but that quote from Spencer Kimball about them not being Oriental really puts that question to rest
I am really enjoying these series I am just a random interested in religions and cults and I love these deep dives. found the book of mormon on the bookshelf of an hostel once , read it and wanted to know more ever since. sounded to me like a guy who wanted to write his own bible style stories.
That comment from Kimball was absolutely disgusting to hear read out loud. We have come so far when you realize how "normal" this statement by KImball was in white America back in 1960. And then I remember George Floyd.... words just can't explain how sad I am to know some of our "progress" was just a coat of paint when we needed to rebuild from the foundation to make things right.
I say this as a Never Mormon - just as someone that grew up clueless about how broken the American Dream really is.
Hey! I went to Guatemala on my mission too! I was in Xela from 2002-2004. What mission were you in? By the way, I love your episodes. I’m binge watching them now.
OK so I'm confused bc certain Mormons think that ruins in Mexico were inhabitated by book of mormon people. Can someone help me understand. My mom even freaked out bc there was a video of an albino Mexican and she said that was a nephite that escaped being killed by the lamanites.
That's hilarious
Not just human dna. In the late 1400s, Spanish conquistadors brought European horses to North America, and the natives in the plains didnt domesticate horses untill 1600s. Also they didnt have the wheel or iron.
The convoluted response of the church is soooo cringe 😣
This broke my shelf almost 2 years ago. Thank you!
Just a bit of correction: the scripture Ether 2:5 isn't referring to the jaredites in the Americas, but rather the family of Jared going into the wilderness near the valley of Nimrod. That wilderness was unfamiliar and had not been touched by man.
I work with a native population on a large reservation, and see all the time the obvious genetic resemblance to Oriental ancestry. It's so obvious, that before questioning the Book of Mormon I always wondered if maybe they were not part of lehi's family but migrated here independent of them at a different time. This explanation makes a lot of sense.
Lehi is fiction, just like the rest of the Book of Mormon.
Most of this falls under "The God Of The Gaps". Meaning, as science and evidence prove faith claims wrong, God/religion keeps retreating to smaller and smaller isolated pockets. Eventually, there will be no pockets left. It's a really weak argument for apologists to use. Just do a UA-cam search for "God Of The Gaps". Neil DeGrasse Tyson explains it perfectly.
Love these episodes thank you!
Love love this series! I watched Ep 42 first then went back to 1 and going thru them in order now! I am in love with this! And I am a never-mo!
"Oriental" is an incorrect term used to describe Asians. It's often viewed as derogatory. Leave it to Kimball to use it.
He was wrong, but please cut Kimball some slack in the use of the term "Oriental". In 1967, year of this address, that was the common, accepted, non-derogatory word for people from east Asia. It was not until the early 1980s that "Asian" was in common usage to describe people from east Asia.
@@Joyfulness87 That's fair 👌
“Also, dude, oriental is not the preferred nomenclature. East Asian, please.” 😂
According to Rod Meldrum the ONLY appropriate term is “asiatic.” He only said it 8000 times during his visit.
Gracias! Gracias! Gracias ❗ God bless you guys ❗
So when it comes to the title page change… to further drive the point home about members not knowing, how often do members replace their personal Book of Mormon?
Likely most wouldn’t have even had an updated version for a decade after
Does anyone know if the Eastern Indians DNA is different from the western Indians DNA???
When this information became common knowledge, I remember distinctly being taught: "Well, they didn't DNA test EVERY native American"
Gerardo is bringing it this episode
OMG, the green cheese comments are so funny and hits the bullseye. I am learning so much from you guys, I’m so happy that I was not brought up in any particular religion.
Brilliant guys! Just brilliant! From Argentina
1:32:41 I don't think it's accurate to compare the bottleneck scenario of ancient Asians with the bottleneck scenario of the Lamanites because the ancient Asians were all part of the same trail of migration through Siberia and into the new world. So that particular bottleneck event was constricting genetic variation from _within_ a population of the same general origin. Whereas with the Lamanite scenario, the idea is that the Lamanite DNA was from an actual separate origin and it mixed with the other indigenous populations in the area with actual different genetic haplogroups. And the Spanish conquistadors _was_ the bottleneck event that snuffed out the Lamanite genetic markers.
Before DNA, the Linguistic Map also proved that the Book of Mormon was bunk.
When i read the title, for some reason the first place my mind went to was genetic genealogy and potentially uncovering a bunch of "illegitimate" offspring that trace back to Joseph Smith, and the apologetics claiming he took these wives but didn't have sex with them. As a never-mo, i don't even know if he had any children at all?
This is still interested and I'm going to keep listening
Joseph Smith Jr. had several legitimate children with his legal wife Emma. The most prominent of them was Joseph Smith III, founder of the Reorganized Church of Jesus... Saints, or RLDS for short. It's now known as Community of Christ.
They did another video which indicates that Joseph Smith might have used abortion to avoid illegitimate children.
Excellent episode!
30:00 I was wondering why I hadn't heard of Ether 2: 5-7 and I think I know why. That phrase _"that quarter where there never had man been"_ can be easily interpretable in two ways because at that point, the Jaredites were still in the old world. It mentions the "valley of Nimrod" just in the previous verse. So an apologist could simply say that the area they trekked into adjacent to that valley was "that quarter where there never had man been". And the Jaredites then later came to the shore of the ocean and crossed to the promised land.
Having said that, it is definitely arguable, and probably more reasonable to believe that that statement is actually talking about the Americas because it's basically mentioning the _ultimate_ destination of the Jaredites, after which we have a general summary of the journey they took to get there.
So while I do think there's a preponderance of evidence suggesting it's referring to the Americas, I still think the apologists have a not unreasonable interpretation for that passage to refer to an area still in the old world.
edit: Also, as a side note, verse 3 in this chapter is also where a lot of exMormons get confused, thinking that honey bees are an anachronism in the Book of Mormon. Again, the Jaredites were in the old world at that time.
edit2: Helaman 3: 8 That's a good point. This verse, if not already taken literally, portrays _maximal_ geographic expansion. Apologists are trying to shrink the BoM setting while the BoM itself is trying to expand and _maximize_ its setting. Very curious.
@@randyjordan5521 I don't disagree that the promised land is the western hemisphere. I'm saying that the statement in Ether 2: 5 can be interpreted to be talking about a location adjacent to the "Valley of Nimrod" which is in the old world. The place where god told the Jaredites to _ultimately_ go was the Americas. That doesn't preclude verse five still referring to a location in the old world.
In fact, in the rest of verse 5 it says, _"And it came to pass that the Lord did go before them, and did talk with them as he stood in a cloud, and gave directions wither they should travel."_
So god is telling them where to go locally as well, not just "get to the Americas... somehow."|
edit: having said that, you could still make the case that the mention about god giving local directions came _after_ the statement about going "into that quarter where there never had man been", which can imply that that statement was meant to depict their ultimate destination, especially since the previous verse talks about it actually being a commandment given directly to the brother of Jared by god in the Valley of Nimrod.
@@randyjordan5521 How do you know it's fiction?
This is the whole point of making critiques - justifying one's position.
@@ThomasJDavis Because the genetic, archeological, and biological evidence counters the claims of the Bible and BOM at every turn.
Horses were not present in America at the times the BOM purports to be talking about.
There isn't any evidence of "lamanite" genetic markers, but there ARE markers that the Lamanites could never have had, that regarding the land bridge from Asia.
The book is also young-earth, which has been comfortably and completely debunked.
@@zacheryeckard3051 My point is that Ether 2: 5 isn't a very good passage to use to support a falsifiable claim from the BoM, like nobody inhabiting the Americas before the BoM people get there.
I do think the BoM does paint a picture of a vacant western hemisphere, but this passage is not a good one to use to support that claim.
@@zacheryeckard3051 And Randy essentially just blew off my original argument by appealing to his own assumptions. But the reason why we are justified in believing it's fictional in the first place is precisely because people have done the work to figure out what the claims are and how they're are falsified.
Who needs evidence when we have burning bosoms?