Amazing editing as always Elliot! Also, great suggestions for improving Gawyn's character arc throughout the books. I love the idea of actually showing how he's affected by the coup and how he struggles when faced with killing Hammar.
If Egwene doesn’t crush on Galad and she and Gawyn spend time together, that would give more of a basis for their relationship. RJ mentions that both Galad and Gawyn make decisions about who to side with at least partially due to concern for Elayne. Actually letting us see that struggle rather than just being told it will help make both of them more sympathetic. We’re going to have to see good people still left in the Tower if we’re going to want the Tower reunited.
I like your suggestions. One point i would add is we never get to witness Gawyn do anything heroic successfully (for the good guys). I would have him, torn at how the reds are treating Rand, be instrumental in Rand escaping the box. Then of course he would hate himself for helping free the man he felt murdered his mother.
I'd go a different direction. Make him genuinely sympathetic in his presentation to Egwene and Elayne, overshadowed by Galad, but definitely funny and sweet (which is how he comes across early on). Have a scene where Suian blows off his desperate inquiry about where Elayne was for clearly the 100th time. Then run the entire coup /from Gawyn's point of view/ first. He is hanging out with his fellow younglings, maybe coming out of eating dinner, when he walks out to see his teachers attacking the door guards of the palace all of a sudden. Have one of the warders go mad and kill one of the students as they are trying to figure out what is going on, and have Gawyn and the other Younglings thrown into it to protect their own lives. Only then, after that scene, do we see Elaida taking on Suian in the throne room and we see what is actually happening in the coup, where Aes Sedai are being captured, stilled, or killed while their warders are all locked outside. Then, at the end of the coup, have Elaida come out and make her proclamation that Suian has been deposed for various offenses, and have her commend Gawyn for his service in /her/ services, while he still doesn't know what happened and now has no choice to accept it. Maybe even have a scene where Elaida tells Gawyn he should stay, that she deposed Suian because she'd stolen Elayne and was going to do everything she could to bring her back. Have Elaida want to get rid of Gawyn, confessing to Alviarin that he doesn't really have any loyalty to her, and is afraid that he will betray her. Have her make him swear to protect the Aes Sedai under his charge from Rand, and have /her/ tell Gawyn, in that 'truth but not the truth' how dangerous Rand is and that he killed Morgase...he doesn't want to believe, but Aes Sedai cannot lie. Have him meet Egwene in Cairhien, but have her relationship with Rand such that she's knows Rand is dangerous and she doesn't know about Morgase for certain so she can't give a 100% certain answer. Have him struggle all the way back with Rand in the box with the conflict between his vow and what he is seeing, and have Galina order him to stay away from Rand and the Aes Sedai and Min. After the battle, he can rescue the remaining and return to Elaida per the oath. When he finally learns Egwene is in charge of the rebels, he finally decides he has to break his oath to Elaida and goes over to Egwene's side, breaking his oath, but it's too late. Egwene's been captured. And now he has to try to redeem himself for having believed Elaida. It's tragic, but also human. And no real story changes necessary at all.
The Gawyn having a good idea threw me. Tbh you could convince me that he killed Hammar by accident while trying to put his sword away after a harsh lecture on stupid
I have been saying for a long time that Morgase should be killed during the Rand/Rahvin fight with it being ambiguous which one killed her with the OP. This would give a real reason for Gawyn's hatred.
I think Younglings being Elaidas special guard and Gawain box idea both excellent show additions. I never had problem with Moraine and Thom because both are essentially old intelligence officers. The age gap is still a bit much. However they can appreciate each other in ways no one else can.
I am convinced he will be combined with Galad, become the leader of the Whitecloaks while having an apparently doomed love between him and Egwene. And he will still get bonded to Egwene. But I am a bit unsure over how Rand and Egwene should split up on screen without the scene and characters looking like terrible people.
Not a bad pitch. I could certainly see that working. I'm okay with them looking like terrible people tbh. Think that comes with the territory for Rand 😅
I think some of the Gawyn hate is also because he immediately is against our pov character Rand in eotw, then is privileged and whiny with an inferiority complex in the tower. I think simplifying his motives down to passionate loyalty will help his likability
Totally agree! Avenging his mother's death is a great motive. I think RJ makes it too obvious he's just hanging onto that belief out of hatred for Rand instead of love for his family
Well done and some nice thoughts. I could see Shohreh (Elaida) and him planning capturing Rand in her study… the killing Morgase thing though… I have a nah feeling about that… All in all I think he is a lost cause for him becoming anyone’s (but Jon‘s from WotUp) favorite character 😉
I think that’s probably fair to say as we don’t get a POV on his ‘main events’ Egwene fancies Galad for most of their time whilst he fancies Nynaeve which is pretty funny. Shoehorning Gawyn in probably doesn’t endear him to us. The Box plan though. Jeez you went bold.
I think it would be fun if the show gave Androl & Pevara's storyline to Gawyn & Egwene. After Dumais Wells have Gawyn forcefully recruited to the Black Tower
Interesting idea 🤔 you've got me wondering what would happen if Gawyn suddenly realises he could channel! That would definitely shake up the second half if the series
@@ElliotEdits I love the idea of Gawyn being the best Swordsman @ the Black Tower but the weakest channeler. With a certain talent for gateways. Maybe leave the dual bonding storyline to Logain & Gabrelle instead. Give Androl's fear of shadows to Gawyn (his madness) it'd make the Blood Knives scenario from book 12 more interesting I think. The mad warder Asha'man chasing shadows. Plus I really love the symmetry of the brothers ending up in a White Cloak & the other in a Black Coat
I think your changes would at least make him sympathetic and tragic to constantly make bad choices that seem good with his limited knowledge. Can't wait to see what they do!
I almost didn’t watch this because eeeew Gawyn 🤮🤮🤮🤮 but this was pretty well thought out! Making him more understandable would help…….. still more than happy to hate on him though! 😡🤮😡🤮
Gawyn being a bettayer would be great, because in my mind he looks like Rolf from Sound of Music. And he is almost as much of a misled turd in the books. Where I'm going with this is that I think his and Egwene's relationship is simply one between ywo young people who are barely not children anymore - much like when Rolf sings "I am 17 going on 18, I'll take care of you" to Liesel. It's two twitterpated young people and therefore their relationship makes good sense to me. An 18-year-old woman having an intense crush on a young man? Them both acting stupid at times? Though the WoT fandom often complains about this, I think it makes perfect sense and RJ wrote the main characters doing dumb stuff to remind us that they are so very young, that they have little experience when they start, and that they are very very human.
While reading the books, I never felt that Gawyn did anything stupid. I did fill in the blanks.. that Elida was his AesSedai "forever" and had grown up with her "affection", training, advice and loyalty. he would have seen her "care" for his/the royal gardens. It was clear to me that his immense dedication to duty both to the Tower and to his country and later to Egwene were great strengths of character and admirable even if circumstances made him a "Trump supporter" ;-)
@@ElliotEdits The only way to actually improve his character is for him to have been a dark friend. If he were purposely trying to cause confusion and chaos it would be pretty interesting.
For 25 years I couldn't quite stomach Egwene (not even talking about Liandrin!), but... the TV show put Egwene in a different light for me. Liandrin is still vile, but the actress turned her into somebody you'd love to hate. So, anything is possible! I do NOT want to like Gawyn, but it all comes down to how a character is portrayed, as you so eloquently stated in your vid! Don't think I ever will enjoy him due to him being so counterpoint to Rand (who is my favorite), but... perhaps he will be less of an idiot/annoying ken doll? 🤭
@@ElliotEdits Fandom does come together in combined Gawyn dislike. That is quite a power he has! I think he beats Faile by a mile.That is great drama indeed!
I feel that I need to correct you on something. Gawain's first character issue wasn't him giving his loyalty to the wrong side. It was his lack of commitment. This was mentioned later in the books in which he and Gareth Bryne were having a covo and he tells Bryne he doesn't know who or what to commit to. Bryne essentially tells him to pick a side and stick with it. Gawain's choice to overthrow Siuan stemmed out of pettiness and his anger towards Siuan for not telling him about his Sister. There was no real belief that what he did was right. In terms of these writers utilizing the ideas mentioned in your videos you would need competent writers and showrunner willing to commit to doing a decent adaptation of "Wheel of time" rather than the room full of monkeys working on "Wheel of Prime." I think the idea of Gawain being the one to come up with the plan to capture Rand though interesting is a sure fire way to make fans hate him even more. So if you're looking to give fans even more reasons to hate that character that would be a sure fire way to do it!
In fairness, I had forgotten about that convo with Gareth Bryne. I think being stubborn in the face of incompetent leadership is still a frustrating trait though.
@@ElliotEdits It's nothing I'd hold against you. I mean there are 14 books (not including the prequel). The only reason I remember is because I just finished a read through this summer. Well, a sort of read through. This time around I listened to the books on audio while working.
@@ElliotEdits I have to say they made it a very different experience for me! A pleasant one to be sure. I am an oddball in that I actually like to have physical media in my hand in this case a book and actually read. But Michael and Kate added, I don't know an extra dimension. I really appreciate the fact that both Michael and Kate tried to give the different characters their own voice or make sure when an illanier Spoke you knew that was what it was because of the accent. Thanks to them while on the job , In addition to being entertained I was able to play a mental game/exercise in which thanks to their reading I imagined the series Played out as if it were properly Adapted. Within that I would ask myself What was possible and what would I change What wouldn't I change and why. What was too esoteric for the screen? That might be a topic you might want to cover on a UA-cam video. How would you adapt the series what changes would you make and why. Maybe you did to assert extent? Anyway to answer your question I think Michael Kramer and Kate Redding worth every penny Spent for them to narrate the books. I would even go as far as to say they probably weren't paid enough!
I don't think Moiraine and Thom are forced. It seems to come out of left field on a first reading, and I certainly wouldn't say it's well developed. (For one thing the speed of development is out of whack with them getting married right after Ghenjei.) But I wouldn't say it's forced - there are lots of hints in the earlier books to their unspoken attraction. One could even argue as early as their introduction (though imho that scene is just intended to subtly show Thom's apprehension towards Aes Sedai).
Amazing editing as always Elliot! Also, great suggestions for improving Gawyn's character arc throughout the books. I love the idea of actually showing how he's affected by the coup and how he struggles when faced with killing Hammar.
Thanks Lauren! Always means a lot coming from you. The coup could definitely be a really dramatic and heartbreaking sequence if done right!
If Egwene doesn’t crush on Galad and she and Gawyn spend time together, that would give more of a basis for their relationship. RJ mentions that both Galad and Gawyn make decisions about who to side with at least partially due to concern for Elayne. Actually letting us see that struggle rather than just being told it will help make both of them more sympathetic. We’re going to have to see good people still left in the Tower if we’re going to want the Tower reunited.
Very good point about the tower. It needs to feel like there's good and bad on both sides, not just evil Elaida supporters and heroic rebels.
I like your suggestions. One point i would add is we never get to witness Gawyn do anything heroic successfully (for the good guys).
I would have him, torn at how the reds are treating Rand, be instrumental in Rand escaping the box. Then of course he would hate himself for helping free the man he felt murdered his mother.
Nice idea! Seeing his and Min's relationship develop a bit more during that time, and how that affects his thinking would also be great to watch!
I'd go a different direction. Make him genuinely sympathetic in his presentation to Egwene and Elayne, overshadowed by Galad, but definitely funny and sweet (which is how he comes across early on). Have a scene where Suian blows off his desperate inquiry about where Elayne was for clearly the 100th time. Then run the entire coup /from Gawyn's point of view/ first. He is hanging out with his fellow younglings, maybe coming out of eating dinner, when he walks out to see his teachers attacking the door guards of the palace all of a sudden. Have one of the warders go mad and kill one of the students as they are trying to figure out what is going on, and have Gawyn and the other Younglings thrown into it to protect their own lives. Only then, after that scene, do we see Elaida taking on Suian in the throne room and we see what is actually happening in the coup, where Aes Sedai are being captured, stilled, or killed while their warders are all locked outside.
Then, at the end of the coup, have Elaida come out and make her proclamation that Suian has been deposed for various offenses, and have her commend Gawyn for his service in /her/ services, while he still doesn't know what happened and now has no choice to accept it. Maybe even have a scene where Elaida tells Gawyn he should stay, that she deposed Suian because she'd stolen Elayne and was going to do everything she could to bring her back.
Have Elaida want to get rid of Gawyn, confessing to Alviarin that he doesn't really have any loyalty to her, and is afraid that he will betray her. Have her make him swear to protect the Aes Sedai under his charge from Rand, and have /her/ tell Gawyn, in that 'truth but not the truth' how dangerous Rand is and that he killed Morgase...he doesn't want to believe, but Aes Sedai cannot lie. Have him meet Egwene in Cairhien, but have her relationship with Rand such that she's knows Rand is dangerous and she doesn't know about Morgase for certain so she can't give a 100% certain answer.
Have him struggle all the way back with Rand in the box with the conflict between his vow and what he is seeing, and have Galina order him to stay away from Rand and the Aes Sedai and Min. After the battle, he can rescue the remaining and return to Elaida per the oath. When he finally learns Egwene is in charge of the rebels, he finally decides he has to break his oath to Elaida and goes over to Egwene's side, breaking his oath, but it's too late. Egwene's been captured. And now he has to try to redeem himself for having believed Elaida.
It's tragic, but also human. And no real story changes necessary at all.
That is a lot of great detail! Would make a very emotional arc for his character.
Ooh, this is fascinating! He wouldn't make it to my favorite, but he would work so much better -- yes, I like these ideas!
Thank you! If we can get him from annoying to somewhere close to likable, I'll take that as a win 😅
The Gawyn having a good idea threw me. Tbh you could convince me that he killed Hammar by accident while trying to put his sword away after a harsh lecture on stupid
I would admire the shows commitment to comic relief if I saw that 🤣
@@ElliotEdits also accurate character portrayal
I have been saying for a long time that Morgase should be killed during the Rand/Rahvin fight with it being ambiguous which one killed her with the OP. This would give a real reason for Gawyn's hatred.
100%! Just makes sense, though I do love Galad's revenge plot at the start of KoD
I think Younglings being Elaidas special guard and Gawain box idea both excellent show additions.
I never had problem with Moraine and Thom because both are essentially old intelligence officers. The age gap is still a bit much. However they can appreciate each other in ways no one else can.
In fairness, they did make Thom a huge heartthrob in the TV show
I am convinced he will be combined with Galad, become the leader of the Whitecloaks while having an apparently doomed love between him and Egwene. And he will still get bonded to Egwene. But I am a bit unsure over how Rand and Egwene should split up on screen without the scene and characters looking like terrible people.
Not a bad pitch. I could certainly see that working. I'm okay with them looking like terrible people tbh. Think that comes with the territory for Rand 😅
Best dissection of the Gawyn problem
Thank you!
I think some of the Gawyn hate is also because he immediately is against our pov character Rand in eotw, then is privileged and whiny with an inferiority complex in the tower. I think simplifying his motives down to passionate loyalty will help his likability
Totally agree! Avenging his mother's death is a great motive. I think RJ makes it too obvious he's just hanging onto that belief out of hatred for Rand instead of love for his family
Well done and some nice thoughts. I could see Shohreh (Elaida) and him planning capturing Rand in her study… the killing Morgase thing though… I have a nah feeling about that…
All in all I think he is a lost cause for him becoming anyone’s (but Jon‘s from WotUp) favorite character 😉
Thank you! If we can just get him to likable, I'll consider that a success 😅
@@ElliotEdits well, I am sure, the show will at least make him likable to hate! 😉
Lmao you liked "credence to grievance" a lot. Made me fucking laugh out loud
I did enjoy writing that one 😅
I think that’s probably fair to say as we don’t get a POV on his ‘main events’
Egwene fancies Galad for most of their time whilst he fancies Nynaeve which is pretty funny. Shoehorning Gawyn in probably doesn’t endear him to us.
The Box plan though. Jeez you went bold.
A more effective Gawyn is a less annoying Gawyn 😅
I think it would be fun if the show gave Androl & Pevara's storyline to Gawyn & Egwene.
After Dumais Wells have Gawyn forcefully recruited to the Black Tower
Interesting idea 🤔 you've got me wondering what would happen if Gawyn suddenly realises he could channel! That would definitely shake up the second half if the series
@@ElliotEdits I love the idea of Gawyn being the best Swordsman @ the Black Tower but the weakest channeler. With a certain talent for gateways. Maybe leave the dual bonding storyline to Logain & Gabrelle instead. Give Androl's fear of shadows to Gawyn (his madness) it'd make the Blood Knives scenario from book 12 more interesting I think. The mad warder Asha'man chasing shadows.
Plus I really love the symmetry of the brothers ending up in a White Cloak & the other in a Black Coat
@@chrissleeping65 that is nice symmetry, I can't lie
And the portals would go with his love of running away shouting 'ill get you next time al Thor'
I think your changes would at least make him sympathetic and tragic to constantly make bad choices that seem good with his limited knowledge. Can't wait to see what they do!
Me too! I'm wondering if we already caught a glimpse of him in episode 1 of season 2.
I almost didn’t watch this because eeeew Gawyn 🤮🤮🤮🤮 but this was pretty well thought out! Making him more understandable would help…….. still more than happy to hate on him though! 😡🤮😡🤮
Thanks for suffering through 🤣 always good to have a character to despise
Gawyn being a bettayer would be great, because in my mind he looks like Rolf from Sound of Music. And he is almost as much of a misled turd in the books. Where I'm going with this is that I think his and Egwene's relationship is simply one between ywo young people who are barely not children anymore - much like when Rolf sings "I am 17 going on 18, I'll take care of you" to Liesel. It's two twitterpated young people and therefore their relationship makes good sense to me. An 18-year-old woman having an intense crush on a young man? Them both acting stupid at times? Though the WoT fandom often complains about this, I think it makes perfect sense and RJ wrote the main characters doing dumb stuff to remind us that they are so very young, that they have little experience when they start, and that they are very very human.
Well now I'm imagining a Wheel of Time musical!
Gawyn is just a meh. whatever! character for me, the one I reaIIy couId not stomach was EIaine, she is beyond fixing
Ouch! Really excited to see what Ceara Coveney does with the role. She certainly looks and sounds like Elayne so far
While reading the books, I never felt that Gawyn did anything stupid. I did fill in the blanks.. that Elida was his AesSedai "forever" and had grown up with her "affection", training, advice and loyalty. he would have seen her "care" for his/the royal gardens. It was clear to me that his immense dedication to duty both to the Tower and to his country and later to Egwene were great strengths of character and admirable even if circumstances made him a "Trump supporter" ;-)
Haha I like that analogy 🤣
Yeah, all of these suggestions would make it harder for me to hate Gawyn. Definitely not impossible though. I'm sure I can do it.
I believe in you!
Even with you essentially creating a new character, he is still a lost cause.
I'd still argue he's the same character, just more effective and rationale... okay, I see your point 😅
@@ElliotEdits The only way to actually improve his character is for him to have been a dark friend. If he were purposely trying to cause confusion and chaos it would be pretty interesting.
For 25 years I couldn't quite stomach Egwene (not even talking about Liandrin!), but... the TV show put Egwene in a different light for me. Liandrin is still vile, but the actress turned her into somebody you'd love to hate. So, anything is possible!
I do NOT want to like Gawyn, but it all comes down to how a character is portrayed, as you so eloquently stated in your vid! Don't think I ever will enjoy him due to him being so counterpoint to Rand (who is my favorite), but... perhaps he will be less of an idiot/annoying ken doll? 🤭
I think even if we don't like Gawyn, we'll like the drama he creates
@@ElliotEdits Fandom does come together in combined Gawyn dislike. That is quite a power he has! I think he beats Faile by a mile.That is great drama indeed!
I feel that I need to correct you on something. Gawain's first character issue wasn't him giving his loyalty to the wrong side. It was his lack of commitment. This was mentioned later in the books in which he and Gareth Bryne were having a covo and he tells Bryne he doesn't know who or what to commit to. Bryne essentially tells him to pick a side and stick with it. Gawain's choice to overthrow Siuan stemmed out of pettiness and his anger towards Siuan for not telling him about his Sister. There was no real belief that what he did was right.
In terms of these writers utilizing the ideas mentioned in your videos you would need competent writers and showrunner willing to commit to doing a decent adaptation of "Wheel of time" rather than the room full of monkeys working on "Wheel of Prime."
I think the idea of Gawain being the one to come up with the plan to capture Rand though interesting is a sure fire way to make fans hate him even more. So if you're looking to give fans even more reasons to hate that character that would be a sure fire way to do it!
In fairness, I had forgotten about that convo with Gareth Bryne. I think being stubborn in the face of incompetent leadership is still a frustrating trait though.
@@ElliotEdits It's nothing I'd hold against you. I mean there are 14 books (not including the prequel). The only reason I remember is because I just finished a read through this summer. Well, a sort of read through. This time around I listened to the books on audio while working.
@@williamjones3534 How good are Michael Kramer and Kate Reading!? I listened to all the books my first time round.
@@ElliotEdits I have to say they made it a very different experience for me! A pleasant one to be sure. I am an oddball in that I actually like to have physical media in my hand in this case a book and actually read. But Michael and Kate added, I don't know an extra dimension. I really appreciate the fact that both Michael and Kate tried to give the different characters their own voice or make sure when an illanier Spoke you knew that was what it was because of the accent.
Thanks to them while on the job , In addition to being entertained I was able to play a mental game/exercise in which thanks to their reading I imagined the series Played out as if it were properly Adapted. Within that I would ask myself What was possible and what would I change What wouldn't I change and why. What was too esoteric for the screen?
That might be a topic you might want to cover on a UA-cam video. How would you adapt the series what changes would you make and why. Maybe you did to assert extent?
Anyway to answer your question I think Michael Kramer and Kate Redding worth every penny Spent for them to narrate the books. I would even go as far as to say they probably weren't paid enough!
you would have been a better writer choice then what the show currently has.
I'd wait till season 2 to say that, but thank you very much!
I'd wait till season 2 to say that, but thank you very much!
I don't think Moiraine and Thom are forced. It seems to come out of left field on a first reading, and I certainly wouldn't say it's well developed. (For one thing the speed of development is out of whack with them getting married right after Ghenjei.) But I wouldn't say it's forced - there are lots of hints in the earlier books to their unspoken attraction. One could even argue as early as their introduction (though imho that scene is just intended to subtly show Thom's apprehension towards Aes Sedai).
I can see how there could have been some foreshadowing to their relationship on a re-read, but first time round it really felt out of nowhere for me
The Younglings were almost as good as the Band of the Red Hand. just sayin.
I think they have the potential to be, but Talmanes takes the Band to another level for me
I really like where you're going with this 🤌
Thank you!