The Gold Plates: Is Joseph Smith's Story Possible? (w/ Bill McKeever)
Вставка
- Опубліковано 15 вер 2024
- Bill McKeever of Mormonism Research Ministry (MRM.org) talks about the problem with the story of Joseph Smith and the Gold Plates that contained the Book of Mormon. In many ways, the Book of Mormon is the cornerstone of the LDS Church. Joseph Smith began the Restoration with the Book of Mormon, and Moroni's entrusting Joseph with the Gold Plates sparked the Latter-day Saint movement. But is the story of the Gold Plates even plausible?
The problem of the Gold Plates is not just a problem of misunderstanding Joseph Smith's history. If the story is false, there are two possibilities: (1) Joseph Smith made up the story, and that's why he had the plates covered in front of other people, or (2) Joseph Smith exaggerated the details to make the story seem more dramatic. Both of these are significant issues! If Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, the Prophet of the Restoration of Christ's Church, then even having him blur some of the details would be a significant issue! Yet, the story (as it currently stands) seems impossible to be true.
As Christians, we don't need to wonder if our prophet makes mistakes. Our living prophet is Jesus, the Lord and Savior of all those who believe. Joseph Smith (and the other LDS Prophets) are far more problematic. They disagree, change their minds, and teach conflicting doctrines. The story of the Gold Plates is just one additional proof-Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Jesus warned about such people. Reject Joseph Smith, and turn in faith to Jesus-the true "living prophet."
Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness, where your fathers put me to the test and saw my works for forty years. Therefore I was provoked with that generation, and said, ‘They always go astray in their heart; they have not known my ways.’ As I swore in my wrath, ‘They shall not enter my rest.’” (Hebrews 3:7-11)
Related Videos:
The Book of Mormon doesn't Teach Mormonism [Podcast]: • Is Mormonism taught in...
Joseph Smith's Polygamy: • Why Joseph Smith's Pol...
Book of Mormon vs. The Bible: • CONTRADICTION: The Boo...
Problems with the Joseph Smith Translation-John 1: • Problems with the "Jos...
Joseph Claimed to be Greater than Jesus: • Shocking Joseph Smith ...
Galatians, and the False Gospel of Mormonism: • A Different Gospel: Wh...
----
Special Thanks to Bill McKeever and Mormonism Research Ministry. Be sure to check out their site at MRM.org
For more content, visit GodLovesMormon...
----
#JosephSmith #MRM #GodLovesMormons #Christianity #LDSChurch #Apologetics #GoldPlates #Moroni #TheRestoration
It was reading the New Testament that got me out of Mormonism, and into my personal relationship with Jesus.
Same here! I'm so grateful for the grace of God that lead me to the true Jesus and out of this false religion.
Praise God. Thank you, Jesus. We can’t go wrong with the Bible. It exposing false doctrines so easily.
@@prayerwarrior7778 Me too!! And the fact they used evil Freemasonry symbols and rituals in their temples.
@@prayerwarrior7778 too many interpretations of the Bible too many translations
@@gustavmahler1466 go learn hebrew and greek then.
Bill Speaks so clearly that this video is readily watchable / listenable at 150 % play back speed. Good work !!!
As a "buff farm boy" I can confirm that Joseph's story is not feasible even if the plates are 80lbs.
Same! I’ve worked farms and ranches!
They would have probably been about 40 pounds (gold alloy) Similar to other ancient plates found from the middle east.
I'm a big guy, a farmer and shepherd. I've carried two 100 lb. bags of minerals before, one on each shoulder. I wasn't running, I wouldn't have been able to jump, and dodging or fending off an attacker? Completely impossible and absurd.
@@nute742 The other plates you’re referencing were 3 plates! Not the 24 reported by witnesses. But how do you get over 500 pages from 24 plates?
@@rusochileno639 I'm not familiar with the 3 plates (?) However the other plates were written in reformed Egyptian (double sided, lol) So that would be 44 sides overall (Egyptian "shorthand") which has been proven to be a "real thing"! (hope that helps) :)
That should be a contest on the World's Strongest Man. Take a 200-pound weight and run 3 miles. Call it the Joseph Smith run.
this is hilarious i agree
I think during the 90's/ early 2000's New York did exactly that. Got a bunch of body builders together, sectioned off a long stretch of road and gave the strong men a led replica of the plates. The body builders were told to carry them under one arm and run the course.
The body builders didn't make it 10 feet is what I hear.
I'm a police officer, part of any SWAT tryout usually consists of dragging a 200 lb dummy about 25 yards. This is exhausting even for the very fit officers who are well prepared.
200 lb? The plates were 45 to 60 lbs.
Funny this “expert” missed that the testimony of Joseph Smith stated that the plates had the “APPEARANCE of gold” - not solid gold. He went through all that trouble to debunk nothing. 😅
Anywho there are other “gold like minerals” found in the Americas that are less weighty and other researchers believe could have been the material to forge writings in ancient days on plates.
Honestly, who cares how the Book of Mormon came about (you who believe the Red Sea was parted by hands, donkey chatting with owner and walls of city crumbling by merely walking? Two fish and a couple of loaves to fead 5,000? This is easily proven?
The fact is the writings are before you. You’ve tried to discredit the Book of Mormon over and over when the real test is to simply act in faith and genuinely read it “nothing waiving” (that’s Biblical by the way) James 1:5
And you’ll see the “fruits” of the prophet Joseph Smith or not! And guess what? That will be between you and the Lord whether you found it draw you closer to Jesus Christ. You’ll also can justify it to HIM for why it is not so - Book of Mormon testimony.
Why not claim you actually followed through with the experiment of faith rather than “leaning on your OWN understanding “ by doing silly recreations when you missed the facts - this lies nothing more.
I pray the Mormons that see this come to know the True Savior Jesus Christ!
You need to point this to them.
Amen.
I’m mormon and trying. Pray for me and my family. Jesus has started reaching out to me because I have been experimenting on his word. It’s not easy and it’s dividing my family
@@MJ-td3ij the Book of Mormon does not conflict with the Protestants interpretation of the Bible
How did the Bible come to be? What historical journey, translations, formats, shifts, and organizations did it find itself a part of over the course of history?........ because thats the only Jesus you know........ I mean, playing the game telephone always works out 100% in the end right?.......... Ever witness a car wreck before? Imagine if someone on the other side of the street saw the same wreck, but from a different angle. Maybe y'all were looking at your phones at different times of the accident. If a police officer took only your statement of events as fact, and disregarded the other witness completely, how would you asses the officers performance? Would the insurance company receive the correct information, or maybe just part of it?.......... just some thoughts about how we come to KNOW a true anything.
The Book of Mormon initially seems logical and sounds like ‘Another Testimony of Jesus Christ’. Joseph Smith would later describe a Jesus radically different from the Bible Jesus which seems more like a testimony of 'another' Jesus Christ.
Apostle Paul warns of teaching another Jesus (2 Corinthians 11:4), and goes on to explain in verses 14 and 15; “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
Now this is the kind of evidential thinking that people should be doing when witnessing to Mormons! Excellent.
As a believing Latter-day Saint, I have no problem with the descriptions of the plates that Joseph Smith, family members and associates gave. The Darius gold plates, by contrast, are square, measuring 13 x 13 inches (33 x 33 cm) and .63 inches (1.6 cm) thick.
The plates of the Book of Mormon, as reported by witnesses who saw, felt, hefted and handled them, describe them as weighing 60-65 pounds, having the appearance of gold and being rectangular, about 6 x 8 inches in size. We also don’t know how small the characters were on the plates. They may have been quite small for all we know. By placing a straight-edge (ruler) on the plate and using it to etch the characters in a neat line, the smaller the character, the more could be fit per line, per page, front and back.
The real miracle is the Book of Mormon itself. If Joseph Smith made the whole thing up, why gold plates? No engravings on gold plates had ever been found, and when the Darius plates were subsequently discovered, they were in a stone or cement box and covered with a stone, rounded on top, very similar to Smith’s account.
Coincidence?
How did Smith concoct the gold plates idea? And how did he know the tiniest details of the Arabian Peninsula? How did he know about the valley with a “river of water” running through it, and emptying into the Red Sea? How did he know about NHM (“Nahom”)? And that it was a burial site? How did he know about that tropical area on the east coast that describes Bountiful? How did he know it had trees for shipbuilding, ore for making tools, dramatic cliffs, bees and honey, various types of grain, a mountain Nephi could ascend for communing with the Lord, and inland harbor areas he could use for constructing a ship?
How did he know to write complex chiasms and other obscure Hebraisms, and how did he dictate the book for hours on end, looking into a hat and never having any of the manuscript read back to him? And bottom line, if he were a fraud, why did he even _need_ a Book of Mormon? If you take the entire “Restoration” construct and remove the Book of Mormon from the equation, you still have a credible foundation story. Why even bother writing something you might be caught concocting? After all, Smith was writing a story so completely different in time, place and culture. Why risk it all by writing a whole new book of scripture? And if it is a concoction, why hasn’t he been caught?
The plates may have been only _partially_ gold, and the composition of the pages may be different through the years. Many anti-Mormon publications questioned the concept of writing on metal. One recent discovery of the Maya hierglyphics reveals a single character, the translation of which is, “And it came to pass.” With no knowledge of the language or the construction of the sentences, to attack the plates themselves is futile. You really need to tell us where the Book of Mormon came from and who wrote it. And good luck with that!
It came from Satan and or his demons.
A fun question I often raise with Mormons, Joseph Smith got out of militia service to go fight in one of the Indian Wars, because he was crippled. He had a leg that was injured as a child from a surgery to remove a growth of some kind, and he walked with a painful limp. So either he is lying about his running and dodging through the woods, or he lied to get out of military service during war and was essentially a draft dodger. So the question is, which one was he lying about, and now that we established he was a liar, what else did he lie about?
Or we have no clue what happened... being 200 years removed. Or miracles are in play. "Lord... help thou my unbelief."
@@mrsjonse There are actually tons of records from that era not everyone back then was as unintelligent as the church tries to portray Joseph
God Bless you Bill McKeever, for speaking the truth!!
The story of Joseph carting the plates home and being accosted thrice sounds representative of the three ruffians who assault Hiram abiff in free masonry. The three ruffians in allegory are ignorance apathy and laziness. So the story seems to be allegorically representing that he has “developed his care” and overcome the three traits
plates are not the issue the point is Jesus Christ's story in the gospels is complete in the bible for almost 2000 years before a farmer con man was born to claim / Lie create a false religion from a lie again remember Galatians chapter 1-9 if anyone preaches another gospel even if it is an angel made from macaroni let him be accused
This story is so true! 200lbs solid gold plates can easily be carried under 1-arm! They are also notoriously easy to run with and getting fights with! By the way, three fights in the 3 mile walk.., totally believable! I got in 6 fights yesterday going to the bus stop
"With God _almost_ all things are possible.
Acts 5:38 And now I say unto you, refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to naught:
39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
This is great! More proof that God can work His miracles without us having to know every little miracle that He is doing. Thank you for once again strengthening my testimony in our Heavenly Father and in His son Jesus Christ and in the prophet and book they sent to testify of them.
WOW amazing video, even 2 years later.
I love this man, he knows what he's talking about.
I am an ex-Mormon. I did my missionary stuff (I don't like to use the word serve anymore, because no one really benefited from any of that nonsense) in San Diego, California. Bill McKeever's house was in one of my areas, and it was the first time I ever heard of him. I used to have nightmares, while I was a missionary, about meeting Bill McKeever, because I had heard all of these horror stories about him. Funny thing is, every missionary I knew who had ran into him admitted he was a really nice guy, but they all talked about how sick they felt after talking to him, because they had their whole world challenged, and were being forced to think about their faith for the first time, and I was convinced that if I ever met Bill McKeever, that the devil would lose his demons after me afterwards, to try to tear me away from the faith. It is all so silly now thinking back about it, but I was so scared of Bill McKeever.
The irony is, for a while, the missionaries used to live in my sister's house, and I heard I had a reputation as the guy who scared them, even though I was always nice and kind.
I know Bill is a religious guy, and I don't agree with him on the whole god thing, but I do respect many of the scholarly research he has done into Mormonism.
You stated you are ex Mormon. Have you not come to the saving grace of Jesus Christ?
Bill is the man. Always like watching his talks.
But how can you believe in walking on water, water to wine, parting the Red Sea, Samson, and everything else that goes along with the Bible?
What fantasy’s do you decide to believe are true?
I know right these gus can point out flaws in other religions, but oh no, their fairy tales are different for some reason.
I also believed many things scientists have reversed themselves on...
Any gold alloy is still "gold". While pure gold is 24 karat, 10 karat is still considered "gold" and 9 karat in most countries. Pure gold is way too soft for anything, while 14 karat is typical jewelry, watches etc. Tumbaga is a copper/gold alloy and common in pre-Columbian America.
The gold plates of Joseph Smith, were handmade and certainly not perfectly flat , factory sheets.
Joseph's little sister moved them once from one table to the next. She said they were heavy.
Not all of the records were written on gold.
Some of the plates were brass. There were eleven official witnesses of the gold plates, but about twenty accounts of record. It wasn't just Joseph Smith.
The three men he was accosted by, is another Masonic borrow from Smith. The architect of Solomon's Temple, Hiram Abiff, is accosted by three ruffians as he refuses to divulge his knowledge as a master mason, and metallurgist. The more you look into the vows of the LDS and Joseph Smith's life, the more Freemasonic symbolism you'll find.
and freemasonic symbolism comes from ...... where, when?
@@kevinsills9235 Joseph Smith and Bringham Young were Masonic members, henceforth why there are Masonic features and characters in the temple ceremony and Masonic symbols on the holy undergarments
They will just say God gave him super powers.
Like Samson?
Yes it is possible. Only to Christians who believe anything is possible with God. Matthew 19:26. I have heard accounts of women lifting up a car to save their child. People surviving freezing cold temperatures to rescue their loved one from drowning. I have read people do miraculous things in the Bible. Why doubt? How can you believe the words of the Bible but when miracles happen today you cast it off as lies. O ye hypocrites of the Word. Ye seekers of a sign. Even if it was a 1000 lbs I would still believe God could do it through Joseph. Joseph was a Man of God and he was also a man pumped up with adrenaline protecting the one thing that God told him to protect. You would only be able to do it if you were protecting something as precious to you.
Can you show evidence that the Jesus described in the New Testament is a different Jesus described in the Book of Mormon?
Joseph Smith
“These records were engraven on plates which had the appearance
of gold, each plate was six inches wide and eight inches
long, and not quite so thick as common tin. They were filled with
engravings, in Egyptian characters, and bound together in a volume
as the leaves of a book, with three rings running through the
whole.”
It’s quite possible that the plates were a gold alloy. I bought my wife a gold wedding ring, but it’s clearly not pure gold. The plates shown in this video were machine rolled and cut to fit perfectly on top of one another. Not hand pounded and engraved upon.
This is straining at a gnat when the mere existence of the Book of Mormon is a miracle that testifies of Christ.
I like how their excuses are 1)God helped him carry them, or 2)It wasn't Gold, but gold alloy, so of course he could do it. Either way, they have an excuse for everything.
They are experts when it comes to having excuses. Just read through the excuses in these comments. And we know God is constantly changing his mind.
It was by the power of God (God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost) that brought me into his Church (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints) here on earth in which I trust and believe and in God's Glory in all eternity.
The church is non trinitarian
Lol, that's the mormon answer to everything
Witnesses of the plates, Martin Harris and William Smith, said they weighed 40 to 60 lbs, so even if Joseph made up fake plates the basis of this whole video is wrong... Pre Columbian Maya did have a gold copper alloy called Tumbaga, (btw they have even found Tumbaga plates in stone boxes)... but Tumbaga plates of Josephs description would have weighed around 58 lbs. Perfectly within the description of the witnesses. BTW Joseph was known to use anything he could to prove the authenticity of the BOM but never mentioned Tumbaga and it's weight, as if he didn't know about it. Not proof but kinda cool.
The angel did say they were gold, so he either meant gold the color or gold the metal, we can't just pick the one that we want we have to look at the whole story, based on the witnesses perhaps the angel meant color or perhaps he didn't care to describe Tumbaga to Joseph Smith bc it really didn't matter. Anyway your fake plate thing is wrong.
Also, you said the witnesses saw the plates spiritually somehow, that's very clearly not true, the witnesses did say in the beginning of the BoM they physically held the plates "and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated we did handle with our hands"
Based on this video I think your being the deceptive one telling everyone the plates weighed 200 lbs.
Bill didn't say the plates weight 200 lbs. He said if they were gold as Joseph Smith claimed the would weight 200 lbs. Bill also discusses in great detail the problems if the plates were made of tumbaga.
LOL Tumbaga was never used to make plates to write upon, it was used for religious jewelry articles. NO such gold plates have EVER been found. The Myans wrote glyphs on ceramic, bark-paper or stone. You are using typical mormon deception.
It is interesting that you accept that Joseph Smith said the angel said gold plated but not that he and other eye witnesses said they weighed about 50 pounds.
has answered my prayer that its true and the Lord will do this for all if one is sincere in knowing.
How am I just now seeing this? This is great! Brings me back to Manti.
1. No evidence that the plates were ever asserted to be pure gold. Just that they had an appearance of gold. Most likely an alloy. For example the gold/copper alloy Tumbaga that can take on the appearance of gold, hard enough to be preserved for a long time yet soft enough to have engravings be made on them range from 97% gold to about 97% copper with trace metals included.
2. It was not a block of metal but thin sheets with engravings what would remove mass from those plates. The sheets would also not rest on each other perfectly flat.
William Smith who held the plates said
"I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillowcase, but not to see them, as it was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about 60 lbs. according to the best of my judgment." (P. Wilhelm Poulson to the editors of the Deseret News, 31 July 1878, Deseret News, 6 August 1878 )
So he placed the plates to be around 60 pounds.
That’s a new one. Joseph has a limp and therefore couldn’t run. This ignores the extensive history about Joseph’s physical prowess. He was known to be unbelievably strong as he wrestled and and played games with people. This is well documented.
You can do all those things with a limp. You can even hop along pretty fast but you can't really run for any amount of time.
Its okay for Moses to talk to God and carry the commandments down the mountain made out of stone...
Thin slabs of stone don't weigh 200lbs
@@BNichols021 The fact that people have to debate about whether or not the weight of the plates were ACTUALLY the plates, is ridiculous. If only there were witnesses 🤦🏽♀️
Ya'll believe God parted the Red Sea and that the Son of God came back to life but you don't believe God could help Joseph carry heavy plates....
Exactly. The arrogance, ignorance and hypocrisy this man exhibits is astounding.
Personally I do wonder if JS made all of this up, so I don’t really have a dog in the fight.
@@bmo5082You should read The Book of Mormon for yourself. It’s absolutely mystical. It seems to emerge from nowhere.
An unlearned, illiterate farm boy translated 4,000 words a day, into a 500 page book chock full of complexities confirming the deity of Jesus Christ.
I have never been closer to Christ in my life as I have than when I’m inspired by LDS.
I am a former atheist, who has gone on a long spiritual journey. I’ve found more truth in Mormonism than anything else.
The criticisms and arguments against it, are mainly misconceptions warped into “debunks” for the Church.
Moroni 10:4 “If ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.”
But did Joseph Smith say that this was accomplished through miraculous intervention?
Compare he Book of Mormon with the Bible. It doesn't line up. How many times has the Book of Mormon been
edited and/or rewritten?? The bible is the work of God inspired by God. The Book of Mormon is a creation inspired by Joseph Smith.
I don’t think you have done much research about how many versions of the Bible there are and how many times things have changed do to translation. The Bible has been changed a lot in the 2,000 odd years.
Maybe DON'T go running down the aisle with a car battery. They might think you're stealing it 😹
I have been saying this for a while, having knowledge about gold. God said my people perish from a lack of knowledge
Joseph must off been high as hell on LSD to run that fast and get away 🤣🤣🤣🤣
"Is Joseph Smith's Story Possible?"
Yes. What seems impossible is for him to produce the Book of Mormon in 60 days, from scratch, without education or resources. This would be an easy thing to test; pick out a 21 year old farm boy that has never been to school, maybe a bit of home schooling, set him down with a scribe and in 60 days produce a book similar to the Book of Mormon.
He didn't come up with it in 60 days. He came up with it over the course of years. By his mothers own admission in her writings of his history, Joseph Smith would entertain the family with stories all the time and everyone who knew him acknowledged his good public speaking skills. He was illiterate, not stupid. Once he had a wife and a few friends willing and able to write his stories down, he already had it all figured out. All he had to do was say the words that he had rehearsed a million times, and they wrote it down. Besides that "60 days" was also just a 1st draft. Even the church admits that massive grammatical and organizational edits were made over the years.
@@tiannabusby8382 "He didn't come up with it in 60 days. "
Says you.
"He was illiterate, not stupid."
Agreed.
"Once he had a wife and a few friends willing and able to write his stories down, he already had it all figured out."
Maybe. Seems unlikely. Very unlikely. For a person that does not talk to God (or hear his replies) this is as likely a story as any.
@@tiannabusby8382that's an awful lot of assumptions
What McKeever fails to mention is that gold is the only element that can be pressed into sheets one molecule thick . One ounce of gold can be pressed into a sheet that can cover a football field.
No one ounce could be flattened to cover 9 square meters a football feild is over 5000 square meters -Gold is malleable, so it can be flattened into extremely thin sheets. [...] Gold leafing-also known as gilding-is an ancient technique. Traditional artisans beat raw gold between pieces of leather until it was almost too thin to be seen. One ounce of gold may be hammered thin enough to cover more than 9 square meters (96.9 square feet) of a surface. The gold leaf may be only 0.18 microns (seven millionths of an inch) thick; a stack of 7,055 sheets would be no thicker than a dime.
DOES NOT MATTER because NO other such tablets or writings by indigenous people have ever been found in North or South America. IF the Lamenites (or mayans / indians, whoever) wrote this way, then why were there never any such things found by archeologists? BTW there was no gigantic battle on the hill of Cumorah; if there were there would be archeological evidence. If such a massive battle was fought there, why are there no artifacts? It would be easy to find them if only the mormons would dig there - they won't because they know there is nothing there. Its a fake.
What you completely ignore is that the dimensions were given by JS. We know what a volume of 6" x 8" x 6" of gold weighs. Whether it has 100 pages or 100,000, the density doesn't change.
What did Mr. Smith do with the plates that he translated?
We now know that anciently religious documents and important information was stored on gold colored plates. They used a copper and gold alloy. It was lighter than gold and soft enough to etch. Joseph Smiths Golden plates would’ve been about 60 pounds not 200 pounds.
268K in the BoM, from plates with such small dimensions?
This is implausible even if you try to make the excuse that it was written in some kind of reformed Egyptian.
The Bible tells us to test all things. The evidence overwhelmingly shows Joseph Smith was a charlatan.
People who want to continue believing Mormonism after research are willfully blind.
So this is another misrepresentation. 1) the plates were described as having the appearance of gold. 2) the claim that they weighed 200 lbs is not in harmony with witness accounts that the plates weighed between 70 and 90 lb. 3) there was an alloy used in the western hemisphere that had not been described as far as I know at the time the plates were discovered that would actually fit that description.
Sort of discredits any other claims you make.
As an ex-Mormon I would return to the church if anyone found anything else written in reformed Egyptian or someone could show me that indeed such a language really existed. Could it be that all the experts are wrong and there really was/is such a language? But you don't have to prove that the BOM is false, just have to show that its teachings are false. JS could've fabricated physical plates. And why was it important to keep the plates a secret? Most of what the plates supposedly contained has already been revealed. Just pick up any copy of the BOM and you can see for yourself.
Judeo-Egyptian Arabic is a language. Literally took me 10 seconds on google bro. At least put in SOME effort. Wait till you find out what the word "believer" sounds like in that language 😉
The Bat Creek Stone. The Smithsonian had it turned the wrong way, saying it was an ancient Indian language. But flip it the right way, it says in paleo Hebrew 'For Judah'. There are also artifacts that have been found that have the ten commandments. There is artwork in stone that has a mural of the crucifixion of Christ, with three crosses and a Roman soldier who was piercing Christ in the abdomen. Look up Wayne May's presentation of all of this and much more. It right around 2 hours to watch it all, but it's very informative.
Find the true Jesus of the Bible...
A crucial fact for this video is the weight of the plates. Yes, a solid block of gold for the dimension of the plates (Smith Jr in 1842: 8"x6"x6") would be about 200 pounds or maybe about 100 pounds assuming uneven gold plates. Those who handled the plates gave a weight between 30 and 60 pounds. This means the plates were NOT made of gold and were most likely made of copper or tin. I suggest that Mr. McKeever make a replica weighing 60 pounds maximum.
The witnesses: 30 lbs (New York Telescope [Smith Jr & Harris], 1830); "sixty pounds, and was sure it weigh forty." (Willard Chase citing Smith Jr, 1834); 40 or 50 lbs (Harris, 1859); 30 lbs (Fayette Lapham citing Smith Sr, 1870); 40 to 60 lbs (Harris, 1870); and 60 lbs (William Smith 1883 & 1884).
That's fine, so the original story is a lie, because JS or the angel said they were GOLD. If you want to call the BOM the Word of God, it has to be that way. Also, all your references are just mormons trying to back peddle when confronted with inconsistencies. They have been doing this since the beginning. Check out the differences in the first BOM with later editions. They have completely changed things so as to cover lies.
Thank you, Bill !!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!
Claiming that Jesus was raised from the dead because Jerusalem is a real city is a non sequitur. The Bible just like the Book of Mormon has anachronisms and laughably absurd stories.
Well done, my friends!!! I agree with your argument. I am an agnostic, mostly because of my religious studies. After deep dives into the Mormon as well as the Judeo-Christian scriptures, I decided that they all were not worthy of my beliefs. Dan Barker's, "God The most Unpleasant Character In All Fiction" pretty much sums up my conclusion. The gods of the Book of Mormon and and the Bible are not beings I wish to be associated with any longer. You mentioned the impossible weight of the plates to carry around. Have you ever given much thought to the number of Israelites who left Egypt? Supposedly, Moses had 600,000 fighting men in his entourage. Extrapolating from that number for women, children, and older men that number could be close to 2,000,000 people, not to mention the sizes of their herds and flocks. can you imagine the length of of their walking column or the size of their camp? God told the people to defecate outside the camp so he wouldn't have to walk in their excrement as he walked through their camp at night. How far do you think, men, women an children had to walk just to get to the outskirts of their camp? Where did their flocks and herds find pasture in the Sianai desert? To provide food and drink for the humans, God had to resort to miracles. Of course, we can ask many more questions of how a group of more than 2,000,000 wanderers lived forty years in such an inhospitable region. In my present understanding neither the Bible nor the Book of Mormon fit my assumption of literature inspired any kind of an omniscient god.
How did Emma Smith move the plates around while she performed her daily chores? Wouldn't this mean that they were light in weight?
Buff farm girl
The plates were not pure gold. If you look at the description of those who saw the plates describe them as an ore with multiple precious metals and had the “appearance” of gold.
Perhaps if these plates came to us today, they might be different than what we expect?
Both David Whitmer and Martin Harris went out of their way to bury the notion that they hadn’t physically handled the plates. You’d have to ignore the vast majority of their statements to come to the “vision” argument. I hope the man on the video is just ignorant instead of deceptive.
They saw and handled a wooden box they were told had the plates in them they never physically saw anything. It's so easy to debunk mormon claims.
@@nightman6349
Oliver
I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was translated.
Martin
“I hefted the plates many times, and should think they weighed forty or fifty pounds.”
“I saw them just as plain as I see this bed (striking the bed beside him with his hand). And I heard the voice of the Lord, just as distinct as I ever heard anything in my life, declaring that the translation was by the gift and power of God.”
Hiram Page
“As many of the plates as Joseph Smith translated, I handled with my hands, plate after plate.”
Joseph sr.
“I handled them. There were fine engravings on both sides. I handled them and could tell what they were.”
Christian
“I, Christian Whitmer, being one of the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon, do testify that I handled the plates and saw the engravings thereon.”
Jacob
“I, too, was permitted to handle the plates, and I saw them with my eyes and felt them with my hands.”
Peter
“I saw the plates as plain as I see this book, and I handled them.”
I can get more if you’d like
Mormonism is credulity on steroids.
There is no way you would’ve had the faith to follow Moses.
If you are going to throw darts at the "Mormons," don't be stupid while doing so.
If we go by the claims of the "Mormons," the plates were not a solid block of gold. They weren't even solid gold nor a solid block. The sheets were not machined flat but hammered. When accounting for those factors, which are willfully removed by these "intellectuals" - men of poor character or research.
Given the empty space between each plate and alloy composition described, we get at the lowest 40 lbs and the highest 80 lbs. Which oddly lines up with the eye witnesses of the plates. But to admit, such requires valuing honesty higher than spite for other Christians.
Nothing I have mentioned takes more than 5 minutes of research to come across. The sheer unbridled laziness is almost impressive.
The plates are described as being "golden" not "gold". With a false assumption about "gold" your conclusion are wrong.
Gold has a funny sound unlike other metal. It sounds more like stone than it does metal.
It could have been Tumbaga, which is a lot lighter and found all over the Americas.
Also, if the Lord can have Moses depart the sea, then why not make someone really strong?
If Joseph Smith can't carry something heavy, how can someone part the sea??
From what I read in the history concerning the location, the however long he had to keep going back and forth before he could actually obtain the plates, and the story being discussed in this video, it says that there were 24 plates of pure gold. From what I understand this is only concerning the small plates of Nephi. I guess there were much bigger plates of what it said was a less abridged version. Regardless, if these were pure gold as their history states, then wouldn't it be not only extremely heavy but terribly awkward picking them back up off the ground after The first and second encounter? I don't see anybody unless there are bodybuilder, jumping over a log carrying 80 lb.
Pastor jeff from hello saints should watch this video. This is how he should talk
can you put the whole book of Mormon on these plates, especially being in "reformed Egyptian"
My Dad at a young age.. grabbed a full grown man by the legs and threw him.. you don’t know loggers… I used to move 20,000 pounds a day with my bare hands.. 🙌 and I grantee in my prime.
Now, did he hold that under him the entire time.. probably not.. you take a verse and say “can you do that for 3 miles!” When a farm boy could have changed position!
I've had mormons tell me that God gave Joseph Smith divine strength to carry the heavy gold plates.
Strange his wife didn't mention that she got super strong just moving the plates around under a cloth.
Sure he did. Told him not to cut his hair as well
If you apply the same logic to stories like Noah’s Ark or Adam and Eve the Bible falls apart as well.
God bless and Amen
That is not the golden book
And this story has changed
As a young kid going to the church and seeing the golden book
And it's not the same
Who changed all this ??
You did a good job demonstrating what we don’t know about the plates. All we really know for sure is Joseph Smith could carry and run with them. Since we can't see or handle them ourselves we don't know how it’s possible. We can only have theories. My guess is they had to be less than 50 pounds--maybe 40. (If it was me it would have to be 25 pounds max.) Fortunately, we don't have to base our testimony on the plates. We can base our testimony on the Book of Mormon itself. (Which is another testament of Jesus Christ.) I know the book is true. God is doing a marvelous work and a wonder with that book in gathering His sheep throughout the world. Read it and find out for yourself! Also it would be cool if you had another set of plates that could represent a more believable weight.
Joseph himself declared that "no unhallowed hand can stop the work from progressing. Persecutions may rage, mobs may combine, armies may assemble, calumny (false and defamatory statements/slander) may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly, nobly, and independent until it has penetrated every continent, visited every clime, swept every country, and sounded in every ear, till the purposes of God shall be accomplished and the great Jehovah shall say the work is done."
So try as you might your efforts will never have the power to make the slightest dent in the progression of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Instead, you will feel darkness, depression, anger, and sorrow when you realize your words destroy the faith of a few and thus send them into wicked paths as a result of poisoining their ability to believe.
God has never directed a people to slander another church. Instead of engaging in such disbelief I encourage you to repent. Something the true people of God love to do continually. And I encourage you to use the same energy you use to criticize and disbelieve and do the opposite by deciding to believe and exercise faith in reading the Book of Mormon with a believing heart and I promise you that the shackles of disbelief will fall from your eyes as your hearts soften, thus allowing the Holy Spirit to penetrate your hearts with truth which power will cause you to be struck with awe and wonder. And then you will rejoice in truth and realize the power doubt and disbelief had over you, which kept you from truth until you decided to believe.
Gold is a color… it’s not just a metal
I challenge everybody who doesn’t believe in the true story of Joseph Smith to get a 200 pound dumbbell and go for a run! Just try it it’s so easy you could easily do it easy
The entire set of English alphanumeric characters, A-Z and 0-9, are contained in the Anton transcript. Not exactly Reformed Egyptian. The conclusion seems obvious.
Joesph Smith wasnt able? but Samson pulled down a temple by 2 pillars?... Moses parted the seas with a staff?... but someone carrying 80lbs for God is absolutely unable... LOL
Facinating
The coming forth of the Book of Mormon is definitely a difficult story to believe. However, I do believe because of the way it brings me closer to Christ as I study it. I love the truths about Jesus Christ that are found therein.
Bring further the question of a non-existent language!
Left CHRISTIANITY, THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, refused to repent, from personal sins, make excuses.
I'm not religious landed here on accident but what if the plates weren't gold as in metal but color
The golden plates was about 40 pounds. According to the witness.
Joseph was huge…6’3 or so, doing the hardest farm work…. no machines …. and I suppose Samson like strength cant be given to a prophet?
Will God fail in fulfilling His biblical promises?
Where is the hope in a Christianity that continues to splinter(outside the restored Church of the joyful name of Jesus Christ) since the original prophets and apostles were killed without them passing on the Melchizedek and Aaronic keys of authority mentioned in Hebrews 6 verse 20 of the New Testament? You will all soon be blessed to see the greatest miracles in history…. believe in or not! All Gods actual binding words will be fulfilled…. this is my witness! Ive been rescued!
Where can we find the full clips of the replica plates shown in this video?
The thing is, as it has been explained to me, and maybe you, the plates were evidently not pure gold. That said, they might have had an appearance of gold. The poor young Jos. Smith was neither a scholar nor an expert in the field of translation, be it with a stone, glasses, or whatever. Doesn't matter. Many things about this story make no sense. Unreliable sources.
Yet the Book of Mormon, which I'd not read for some time and had taken an interest in within the last six months is a powerful book and speaks of Christ, which is the purpose of the book.
The display of golden plates is metal. I just lifted it one month ago. Our teenagers all lifted it. Straining at gnats.
This guy doesn't say how thick his lead plates are nor how much space exists between his plates. and he obviously cannot know those same facts about the alleged gold plates.
Joseph Smith may have been describing to his mother the 6X8X6 plates that were in the stone box. The majority of the plates were then sealed and would not be unsealed for a very long time after Joseph was murdered. Why would the sealed plates be carried home by Joseph if they were not to be translated in the 1800's? The plates to be translated must have been made so as to be seperated from the plates not then to be read. Moroni knew Joseph had to carry the plates home and would have sent with Joseph only that which was needed.
Were all the plates to be translated by Joseph carried on just one trip? A second trip that entailed Joseph picking up what was left without any incident or words of Moroni to convey to us, may have been seen as not significant enough history to mention in writing. As we can see that 6X8X6 gold plates were too heavy to carry, those of Joseph's day, who were more familiar with the weight of gold since gold circulated among them as in hand money, described the plates as ,movable so as to be hefted and another time carried in a way so as to hand them through a window. 200 lbs plates would be barely moveable by most people then and now. So, we simply are missing information as to how much gold Joseph was given to take home and perhaps just when he took all that was needed.
Why all this concern over the gold plates? The church has admitted that they weren't even used in the BOM translation in the Gospel Topic Essays, which can be found if you hunt around on the church's official website. So the testimony of the three and eight witnesses are irrelevant.
Because if Joseph was lying from the beginning, then the very foundation of the LDS church is based on a lie and the claims of the church lose all credibility.
i say the same thing. they all (mormons) speak out of both sides of their mouth. they say they really really really believe in the book of mormon, and then 2 seconds later they deny anything the b/m says, and claim baptism for the dead, plurality of gods, believe they can become a god too, believe godhood comes from having more than one wife (section 132) and on and on and on.
Because if Joseph lied once then your entire cult is based on a lie and if he lied about that what else did he lie about??
And he married underage girls when he was practicing polygamy behind hes wifes back...which is something you will never never hear in the church. Left the church in in 09, best decision ever made no lie.
@@BNichols021 exactly. And who is the Father or lies? And what did Jesus call the Pharisees?
It is another gospel !!! Why would I want teachings from the Egyptians anyways when God freed from the Egyptians. Them Egyptians have other gods not the God of Israel. If those plates ever did exist lol I wouldn't trust no Egyptian Pharoah's writings. 🤦 Wake up. That's why I'm not Mormon.
Lets get this straight, Samson could kill a Lion with his bare hands, Moses parted the red sea, Peter walked on water. But Joseph Smith couldnt lift 200 pounds
I could have done it. Probably not now that I'm old, but certainly at 22. I used to take 3 stacks of roof shingles, 80 lbs each, put them over my shoulder, and take them up to the roof. When I was younger, we had these 120 lb soda cylinders, and I would move them four at a time. If you saw me now or then, I did not appear muscular, and never worked out. Later I found out that I'm probably in the tribe of Dan.
Nowadays, I'm lucky to lift my cat, but that's more of a teeth and claws thing.
You could probably carry them, but you would not be able to outrun someone chasing you while you're carrying them. That' where the story falls apart.
Why is logic the thing that matters here? Isaiah 55: 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
This is all assuming the plates were pure gold, which is likely not true. Solid gold would have no ability to hold engravings for hundreds of years. It was likely an alloy of gold, silver and copper and plates of such an alloy would weight between 50 and 70 pounds.
What ever lies you have to tell yourself. Come on man... Christianity is logical, Mormonism is not. Doctrines of demons, you have been fed a lie.
Wow, I can, with my natural eyes, and not the eye of faith, actually see your plates.
If he was a real prophet then he can carry anything for angels where there for him
Gold plates? What's the big deal about that? People are truly mindless and gullible to believe this kind of foolishness.
when you dig deep the religion is definitely false.. BUT the plates story isn't that far fetched when u believe a talking donkey, snake, a 200lb man slaying a 2000lbs giant, people that live to crazy ages, raising dead people ect. I'm believe Jesus is the son of God btw ☺
I see your point. I’d rather have a discussion with the LDS on does their doctrine contradict the biblical gospel or not, rather than what Smith did. They have such strong feelings about Smith, I don’t think that is a good place to start. It won’t get them to question, most of the time, and make actually make them MORE zealous for the LDS faith thus feeding their persecution complex.
Who says the "giant" was 2000 pounds? People are left to guess his weight.
Yup! It’s possible WHEN you’re a prophet of God! 🙏🏽
If
@@hbendzulla8213 When.
So, God preserved these plates for hundreds of years, gave Joseph supernatural powers to bring them home, only to have Joseph NOT use them to create the Book of Mormon? Why would God need the plates if Joseph was just going to use his treasure hunting rock to dictate the text?
Next question: why don't we see these kinds of miracles today from God's prophets? And i mean real, proper, impossible without God's help miracles. Not, just unlikely got-in-a-crash-and-survived-type-miracles
Next question: why did none of the witnesses who hefted the plates ever talk about their immense weight, only discussion them as being heavy, maybe 60pounds? Did all those people also get prophetic super powers?
All of it is true. From the first vision to the angel moroni and the book of mormon. The lord prepared Joseph to do everything that was asked there's alot that we don't know but we know the basics. When men are called from God to do a work he shows them what and how to do it. It's interesting that he didn't call a man who knew exactly how to build boats but Noah a regular guy was called and he did it but we don't know all the details and it's not important that we know them. Same with the story of moses or Elijah God looks upon the heart not the brain or the wisdom of the man he wants someone that is willing to do everything that is asked of him and do it so completely right that his story will be written down whether on gold plates or papyrus. The book of mormon is absolutely, positively the word of god it was translated and printed for the entire world. 15 witnesses held and saw those plates and wrote their testimonies of it. The church of Jesus christ of latter day saints is here to stay it will never go away we will still print book of mormons, send out missionaries, build temples, and baptize those who are seeking all of God's word. All the podcasts, scientists, or those who have left the church for whatever reason will not change this fact
The gold plates were not made of pure gold. Simple research could have told you this