Note - I deliberately tested Moza R12 with a circular rim. ES weighs around 1kg and is 11 inches in diameter. So theoretically it has all the advantage over the Alpha mini as I used the GT1R rim which is 13 inches in diameter and weighing around 1.9kg. Basic physics dictate that the heavier the rim, the harder the motor has to work to rotate it. And somehow Alpha mini felt a bit stronger.
I don't know what sort of settings you used for Moza R12 you are clipping hard.You have to set FFB according to cars and tracks.When i set AC in-game gain 65%-70% to avoid clipping details from road textures, curbs, asphalt, tires come alive.And i have R9 , similar but definitely missing the extra details r12 has to offer.
@GreekSIMRACING I agree. Clipping can make all the dynamic forces mushy. But my sweet spot revolved around 12-15Nm. Which is why I had to turn the gain up to 85% on Content Manager.
After watching about 15 minutes, your commentary started to feel a bit off and unfair to me. I went back to the intro to see if the video was sponsored since I got distracted at first, and things got even more confusing. But honestly, no one seems more confused than you. Disclaimer: "Not sponsored." Next scene: "this video has been made possible by Simagic" ?? ... As someone who's used both, I agree the Simagic Alpha Mini has some advantages over the R12, but you don't seem fair in a lot of your points. And the info about the poles you mentioned? That’s just nonsense.
I wish Pole count was non sense. And regarding the “made possible” statement, I don’t blame you. My poor choice of words led this to happen. But anyways, thanks for your comment!
The base is provided to me by my reseller (VirtualRacingHub). It is his personal unit. And I never said sponsor. I said this video has been made possible by Simagic and VRH. Also, I did wrote things on Disclaimer.
I have the Moza base and I tested the Alpha Mini and noticed some details: the Alpha Mini is smoother, the strength is at least the same as the Moza, I feel more rubber details on the track, more grip, I also thought the response time was better than at Moza. This smoothness is good especially on curbs and bumps, in the middle of the track I feel a little numb. The Moza is a little more notched (which can be reduced in the track details option), perhaps because of this, there is more vibration in the steering wheel, which I don't think is a bad thing, it seems more vibrant on the track, I think it depends on how you want the steering wheel to behave, but I agree that the Alpha Mini is purer, it mixes the effects less, which makes driving easier. I would also have to have the Mini in my house to have a better perception, but both bases are excellent, each with its own proposal.
S.O.S hello sir! i am between moza r9 and alpha mini..i know apla mini is better, but from what i see on videos i see way faster wheel speed from r9 than tha aplha mini? do you know anything about that? your opinion will save me from buing something wrong for the 2nd time! i want it for drift! thank you
@sakishouse_music1225 Alpha mini has better speed overall because of lower pole count in the motor. Not saying that R12 is a poor choice by any means. But in my opinion after testing thoroughly and owning Moza products, I arrived to the conclusion that Simagic’s motor is smoother. And when it comes to drifting, I have seen a lot of people choose Simagic over anything.
@@darthsnape Hello, with all due respect, with the number of poles in a motor, not everything is so simple, otherwise manufacturers would make bipolar motors; They have the highest speed and are ideal for fans, but have low torque, which affects power and acceleration. In general, there are many nuances))
We definitely need to see more subjective comparisons like this. I actually liked how you compared their ffb in terms of music by genre. First time I’ve seen that.
Fewer pole pairs doesn't mean better performance. The more pole pairs the motor has, the slower the motor's movement speed. But also there will be more pole pairs in each phase of the stator as the motor makes one revolution and this allows for more positioning information and therefore higher stability and positioning accuracy. When the number of poles of the motor is reduced, the theoretical maximum speed of the motor will increase, but its low speed performance will decrease. When the torque is approaching the maximum torque, the improvement in low speed performance is limited. This makes precision and stability of the motor's movement worse.
Exactly!! Very interesting aspect of comparing products is introduced wrong. Lower number of poles give faster revolutionS - when we talk about printers and drones. In case of 180-360deg for majority of cases, more poles - the better initial speed and precision (rapid movements).
But doesn’t AC and DC motor work differently when it comes to pole count? In an AC motor (which is what is typically used in dd bases, simucube, simagic, fanatec, etc) the pole count directly affects the speed as opposed to a DC motor where the speed is mainly controlled/influenced by voltage. It is important to understand which motor we are talking about.
You are one of the best youtubers so far regarding sim gear! Also, I agree with you regarding the lock-up feel though I have the R5. It's extremely hard to notice when Im under-/oversteering/lock-up in ACC no matter what I do in the settings...
I just had to look on the video to see that the FFB settings for Moza was very bad setup. Looking closer on your settings just proved my point. Well, guess video was made possible by simagic..
Well, I did say that ffb is highly subjective and whatever I have felt, can be felt or not felt by others. Funny thing about ffb is, that no one is ever truly “right” or has the “best” settings.
Hi just subscribed! I can only name one other reviewer that comes close to your approach and it is very much appreciated. You are very good at anticipating questions from an audience that has already spent countless hours researching on possible wheel bases - but you actually answer the questions only an owner of the base can answer. Not only that, I really I appreciate the detail when it comes to the engineering and software that go beyond what the marketing page tells us.
Hi, Thank you very much. I try my best to answer all the “Why should you care about this thing or feature” questions, because I believe that marketing pages don’t tell a lot of things. I’m glad you enjoyed it and I hope I was able to provide a different outlook.
@@darthsnape would love to hear the technical read out for the logi pro, its reported at 11nm sustained and it certainly feels like it peaks higher, detail feels amazing but i dont have a point of comparison
@@awakeandwatching953 Ever since it has been released, I have seen quite a handful of people talking about it. I'd love to take a look at it too. I'll see what I can do. 👀
@@awakeandwatching953 i have the Logitech Pro and love it, but came here thinking i might want to upgrade to Simagic as I just purchased their ds-8x shifter and am completely impressed with its build quality. This review did point out some compatibility with games issue that has me feeling like I should stick with Logitech Pro as it has compatibility with any game I would choose to run. While I am disappointed with the offerings from Logitech as far as the eco system goes, I am not sure I would prefer a bigger eco system and more compatibility issues. Would love to see @darthsnape do a review of the Pro to see where it falls on the scale in comparison to other wheels sets. Great review and I also subscribed.
I was ready to buy a Moza R9 'til I found out there's a local Simagic distributor and now I'm going with the Alpha Mini and the GT Pro wheel I am still going with Moza SR-P pedals for now. Currently using a Logitech G920 lol I can't wait! Thanks for the video!
I have an R9 and can confirm that the FFB curve tweak does get rid of the oscillation. Known tweak within the Moza Discord community and confirmed working for the R5/R9/R12 bases
I upgraded from R12 to R21 V2 because I needed more precision. However I never had oscillation problems you had with R12. I was able to find very good settings for my games. I suppose that's because I worked on all settings individually and learned them well enough. Most of those R12 problems are because of wrong settings. I think R12 is good enough for its price. I don't have any experience with Alpha Mini but looking at so many reviews of it everybody agrees that it feels stronger than advertised and it's much smoother and precise than R12.
I believe the "oscillation problem" perceived by many is a bit over-exaggerated. DDs are violent by nature and they are bound to oscillate. Since R12 had a smaller motor, it didn't had much natural inertia, causing the excessive oscillations. Bigger motors have more natural inertia, making them comparatively stable. My lack of knowledge at that time made me under explain some stuff. But in any case, R21 should be a plenty powerful base with absolutely 0 issues. I look forward to reviewing Moza gear if I get a chance.
I’m really glad to hear that. There has been quite a number of complaints regarding fading issues, I just wasn’t sure if it was as prominent in an R12 as it was/is in an R9.
I noticed that the tip of the shaft of your Simagic base is heavily scratched, was that intentional? I'm asking because I just got an Alpha base and had to make a massive effort to attach the FX wheel, and now it's stuck, I can't remove it. did you (or anyone else reading this) have any similar issue? great review btw, helped me choose the Alpha over the R12
Hey there, the Alpha mini was actually provided by a local reseller. The QR was scratched because of multiple attaching and detaching of the rim. It doesn’t have any effect on the usability. And, no, I haven’t had a stuck rim. Could you tell me how you’re removing it and what do you mean by stuck? Also, you can join Simagic’s discord server and post a quick video. They’ll be able to help you out more quickly.
This is the exact comparison I needed, and as a note, I have a Moza R5 with a KS wheel, and even that will oscillate like crazy going down a straight, I think it’s a Moza thing for all wheelbases as of now.
@@cal50xare you talking about using the wheel friction or natural inertia? I’ve tried using both, and I can get the car to track straight with some oscillation, but using so much of either kills a lot of the other forces I normally notice when driving at least personally just to dampen the oscillation. For me at least, it’s more the fact I can’t get the right feel without oscillation, that’s the issue I have.
Well done Review, but one thing bothered me as a guy with a music-making past. PLEASE don't place the microphone on the same table where you knock on something. You get 80-90% resonance from the table instead of the desired sound.
The number of pole pairs also affects the electromagnetic characteristics of the motor. The more pole pairs, the higher the efficiency of the motor, since the magnetic field will be more uniform. This allows for smoother and more stable engine running. Also, the number of pole pairs affects the torque and power of the motor. Typically, motors with more pole pairs will have higher torque, allowing these motors to be used to handle heavier loads.
Yes, Simagic 5pole design is more rpm per volt than the moza 8pole = more granularity available in motor control. I run rc cars on oval. Its very true.
They did not under rate it. It is rated for continuous output ( 10nm ) the motor will peak at up to 13nm. The Moza on the other hand is rated for its peak output ( 12nm ) - Which means its not running at 12nm most of the time.
@@albey1816 Asetek and Simucube mentions the sustained time of peak torque output in their website. That is something which I hope other manufacturers should start sharing as well.
It is difficult to take this as an objective opinion when its sponsored by Simagic. Also, that fact seems to directly contradict the opening disclaimer. Might be something to consider next time :)
Hello Chemist. It’s hard to convince anyone that this isn’t a sponsored video, considering there are a bunch of channels with amazing audience Simagic can choose to sponsor. Makes literally 0 sense for them to pay me any penny when I don’t even have an audience base. But, it’s fine if you want to believe this is sponsored. Thanks for watching!
@@darthsnape your video says it is sponsored by Simagic after saying it isn't. Maybe that isn't your intention, but "brought to you by Simagic" and "sponsored by" mean the same thing. You then go on to find Simagic to be vastly superior by every metric, lol.
@lavachemist Where exactly did I say “brought to you by Simagic”? I said “this video has been made possible by Simagic and VRH” (retailer who provided me his personal unit. The usage can be seen on the shaft of Alpha mini with chipped paint) I’m not sure if you read the Disclaimer correctly, but, It’s alright if you disagree with my opinion. Me saying Simagic being better than R12 is my experience. I spent almost a year with Moza before switching to Simagic. But don’t feel obliged to agree with every reviewer’s perspective. Afterall a customer should not buy/think about buying a product just because their favorite reviewer said it’s good or not.
Hello, this video was very helpfull and full of "GOOD" information. You have tried both the alpha mini and ultimate and i would like to ask you a question. What are the advantages instead bying the Mini at 600EU going for the Ultimate for 1050EU. Im sure the alpha would be insanely good and more that enough but its always that voice in my head saying that "If you buy the ultimate you will never need any other wheel base etc." But thats just human greediness and my question to someone who tried both what are the objective and subjective benefits of going ultimate? My assumption is that more is better for : downforce , no clipping , no heat , slew rate , broken fingers😅 And never wanting more. But the real question is , are you having more fun?
Hey ZapZap! First of all, thanks for watching my video. I’m really glad you found it helpful. Now onto your question. Regarding this very thing, a video is currently under production which should out in a week or so. But I’d still tell you about it. Owning a 20Nm+ base does help. Better slew rate, faster response, more range for dynamic forces to be delivered uninterrupted, having extra torque headroom, better encoder and stronger motor, etc. As a person who has upgraded from R9 thinking 9Nm is enough, I must say, if not for the Alpha U, atleast go for the 15Nm Alpha. A little bit of extra torque headroom definitely helps. A 20Nm base running at 50% capacity will outperform a 10Nm base running at 100% capacity. Clipping can happen on literally any base which is running at near 90-95% of it’s rated capacity. Clipping can occur on a 15Nm base if I get it close to max. But, say, your sweet spot is around 10-12Nm, getting the Alpha or the Alpha U makes sense. Think of these equipments as speakers. 100% volume sort of destroys the music and makes a bit of a hotchpotch. All the mids, lows and highs get mixed up. But in a speaker with higher wattage, these problems would be less noticeable. If you can go for the Alpha U, definitely go for it and be done with it once and for all. I did the same. No need to look for an upgrade anymore. 😄
@@darthsnape Wow what a fast and presice response. Thank you. Actually i always think that the best base is a little too much but now i in a bit confused. I am waiting for your video and i think it will be very helpfull for a lot of people. Its very difficult to find such things in reddit cause no one tried them all.(except ytbers ofc) I was gonna ask reddit but now when you release the video im gonna post it in reddit post to make a discussion about it. Im sure its gonna be good Good day to you
@zapzapzap123 Happy to help. I intend to clear up the point of owning a 20Nm+ base as my video mainly will be revolving around the ownership experience where I will be touching some crucial points.
@@darthsnape I think i will go with the alpha. The mini is just there and the Ultimate is just too much. The alpha seems just right in the middle. Thank you for the help
Moza FSR supports a data port but it's hard to say that all of the rims would work on Simagic as they are wireless and both bases have different pins on the shaft
Im pretty sure the only wheel from moza that can be used with 3rd party bases is the new KS wheel that comes with a direct usb connection to pc if used on a 3rd party base.
That was an extensive and great comparison, thank you! I was wondering if you could share some info about third-party wheel support on the Simagic Alpha Mini? Maybe also if it's possible to use Moza's wheels on the Alpha Mini? Also looking forward to your EA WRC gameplay/review.
Thank you, Kabir! I'm glad you enjoyed it. And to answer your question, any wheel can be used on Simagic products as long as you get the QR system from their end. As a matter of fact, this is applicable to all manufacturers. Get the QR right, and any wheel would work. Even Moza's. But, just in case you were wondering, no, I did not snap Moza's rim directly to Simagic's base and vice-versa as I was scared of damaging the pins. Dan Suzuki however did say that Moza KS worked on Simagic base without swapping the QR.
Hello Darth Snape. Thanks for this video. Made the decision much easier for me. And especially the FFB comparison with the music. Awesome. 1000 words can't describe it better.
@@SIMRIG412 the point of my comment was to point out that the Simucube 2 bases have had the feature since day one of its release and it not a feature that only Moza bases have. Also, I believe Moza only got into Sim Racing hardware in around 2021.
Steering wheel chatter is a behavior specific to FFBs that do not have feedback from the seat. If you are involved in FFB design, you will understand. It is one way of expressing it.
Does Alpha mini supports thrustmaster pedals and shifter? Sorry for noob question. I just wanted to know. And why they are selling that much expensive?
Any base would support any pedal or shifter because they will be connected via USB port in the PC. So no worries in that department. And about the price difference, it is because of the components and manufacturing (maybe)
would you even feel that 262k points in the steering wheel vs 32k? thats like 320hz vs 2620hz monitor would you even spot the difference in feel and as to what degree do you need that fine cut of the pie?
Under a lot of circumstances, Yes. The difference can be felt, but, It won't be a day and night difference. Think of it as smoothening out the rough edges. To a person buying a base, both are excellent options. Since I compared both, I felt that difference and had to talk about it. To a normal sim-racer, that difference will forever remain unknown.
@gaminginstillife9429 What you may be getting confused is between the “bit”. A CPU/GPU has a certain design which is referred to as architecture. 64bit architecture is better than 32bit. Search 32bit vs 64bit processor or windows OS. There is however a difference in 32bit architecture and 15bit encoder resolution of a position sensor. A position sensor is used for precision while measuring or calculating the position of an object in linear or 3d space, not to run games on Atari Jaguar. Similar to how a 15 bit encoder cannot replace a 64 bit architecture on….You guessed it. Atari Jaguar :)
I've had my Moza R9 for 1.5 years now and currently selling my moza gear to make the jump to simagic. I think ive decided on the alpha mini as my upgrade as the alpha is just a little bit pricey for me and I never felt like I needed much more power out of my R9. Do you think the mini will still be enough of an upgrade from the R9?
From an R9 it would be hard to justify the mini as an upgrade. But the details and the extra torque would make up for it, if you could get it at a decent price. If you are planning on upgrading, I’d suggest go the extra mile and get an Alpha. Once and for all.
@@darthsnape thanks for response! All this sim gear seems to hold its value quite well when reselling to upgrade so maybe I will try to front the extra money for the alpha :)
The one you reviewed is the older version of the alpha mini. The new alpha mini is smaller and have a different power supply. Not sure if the new base can actually reach 13nm like everyone is saying about the alpha mini v1. I have the v3 but not sure how to test the torque
Absolutely. I believe that Boosted media and Dan suzuki got V3s as well, and you can check Dan’s review where he measured the ffb output peak at 13ish Nm.
What is the wheel you’re using? I’m about to order alpha mini but can’t decide between GTS gt1 or gt pro. I guess gt1 is out of the question because no funky switch, d pad or even an analog so no way to navigate menu
Yeah, for menu navigation I use mouse and keyboard. For all games actually. I own the GT1. You can get the GTS as it has rpm lights and is 11” in diameter. I chose GT1 because of its larger diameter.
Been trying to buy the alpha mini for months and at this point I’m just sick of waiting. How can you be out of stock for months straight though the holiday season ??? I don’t know if I wanna continue to wait then fight for one in another 6-8 weeks
Actually looking at both of these wheels as an upgrade from my G920. had a TM TS-PC in the past so the Logitech feels clunky. Thanks for the review definetly filled in allot of my questions on them both.
so is everyone saying that the R12 doesnt feel like a 12 NM base? that its weaker? what if i have only 2 options in my area which should i get the R12+ KS wheel or cammus 15NM?
That's a very good question. I can't say much about Cammus as I haven't tested it. Moza R12 can be a good option for you. It ultimately depends on how much you want to spend in this hobby.
Interesting review…but in order to compare the dd bases you really have to install and use the exact same wheel. The steering wheels play a huge role as they carry weight and the size and shape makes all the difference. So for example, if you used the Moza KS wheel and installed it on both the simagic base and the R12, then that comparison would be more valid, fair and unbiased. Also having said that, the software ffb settings can really alter the driving experience so these comparisons are very difficult to evaluate. If the Moza pit house settings are set incorrectly, it can really affect the review. Not sure, but did you also mention if you were using the same racing sim software as well, with the same in game settings for both the bases?
You are right, the wheel plays a huge role as the overall diameter and weight can really effect the ffb. It was my plan to use one wheel on both bases, but I had very limited time with them. I'll keep a note of this for upcoming videos. And like I have mentioned in my other videos as well, the ffb segment is heavily subjective. There is no "right" or "wrong" force feedback settings. During my time of testing, there were not a whole lot of differences. And I was only able to tell the differences (based on my ffb settings) because there was a comparison. Otherwise, it is really hard to tell most dds apart. The main factor which differentiates the overall feel is the quality of motor. Sure the software helps, but you can only do so much tweaking to extract the details. For a day to day sim racer, any base would be good. But I firmly believe that hardware matters. If bought an equipment, the software can be fixed, hardware cannot.
Your Wheelstand (which model if i ask?) can handle those wheelbases at max torque? edit: what i've forgot, outstanding review, so many details and some background informations. Very rare and i would love to see more reviews from you (Fanatec, Asetek)
Hey Razor, I use a NLR GT track cockpit. It can easily handle both R12 and Alpha mini at max torque. I have mounted my Alpha U (23nm) and haven’t had any issues.
@@darthsnape Incredible, thanks for the very fast response. Due to space issues, i would use a NLR Wheelstand 2.0 which is more or less your setup without the seat etc.
@blacknovella Once again, you’re right. But in that range it feels too weak. Like I mentioned in my video, R12 was like Phonk. It has a lot of torque, but the detail is a tad bit missing. Mainly because of the encoder differences. But it isn’t that bad. Both are really capable bases for anyone upgrading from Logitech or TM.
I’ve watched many reviews but this one really stands out. Thank you. Also this costs me a lot of money as I was deciding between cheaper r9 / ks or alpha mini / gt neo combi. Believe it’s worth the upgrade. Also I would never forget that music reference 😂 Thanks for the effort, appreciated
I'm glad none of this is a dealbreaker in the end for Moza R12, but I do wish the software can become better and not oscillate as much in the future. None of this finer detail thing is a problem as long as I don't have much experience with other DDs, it's still leaps better than my former T300RS. I now wish someone can pinpoint if there's FFB detail in Moza we're missing and find a way to improve it.
Since all motors are different, their ffb will be different as well. And on top of it, personal preference plays a huge role. So, it is really a hard question to answer. But the details on R12 did feel a little faint and kind of a hoch poch. The progression was missing. But like you said, unless you haven't tried a bunch of dds, it won't matter!
Brilliant video, I enjoyed every second. The music comparison was brilliant, and laugh-out-loud funny on top of it. I'm considering switching from the R12 to the Alpha Mini because I indeed don't feel like being a sigma all the time 😂 You need way more subs... all the best
i know the alpha mini is better but .... i realy don't like the simagic wheels , i need almost one round wheels with button on it and the first one from simagic is at 450€ (with almost same button than the moza one) moza CS is enought for only 280 € , it's my first (and probably last) DD for me and for now (without the new fanatec Clubsport DD) Moza are the best for me (bcz i need all , base/wheels/pedale) in my case , moza it's best value for quality/money and my need.
@@darthsnape i'm going to enjoy for sure ^^, i just wana take one and keep it , 12nm it's probably enough (even 8 or 9 nm can be enough but some extra power to be sure bcz i can put little bit more money for a 10/12 nm)
I have the exact same problem, I can get the alpha mini for same price as r12 in my country, but the wheels are so bad and expensive. All I want is a round wheel with a d pad and more buttons. Only moza has this, and their cs v2P wheel is literally the perfect wheel for me…
Great video. Moving from a Moza R9 to Alpha mini... really it's due to the gt neo wheel and not having to use the cable, but I've never been completely happy with the R9 vs my old CSL DD 8nm, the moza feels more, I don't know for sure, just sluggish and more heavy on big effects rather than smaller ones, can't put my finger on it but hoping the Alpha Mini resolves it.
can i ask you something? im between r9 and aplha mini,but i dont know if aplha mini has that good wheel speed as r9? because i need it for drift and i saw lots of videos, and r9 wheel speed is crazy..is aplha mini has that powerfull wheel speed?
Both the bases will provide more than enough rotation speed than a person could ask for. But my preference would go towards Simagic because their motor is smoother.
@@darthsnape thank you for the 3d time! i know i am a little silly i asked the same thing so many times but ive been busted before and i lost about 500 euros .i hope you understand!! thanks a lot again!
I can get both of these wheelbases for the exact same price in Norway, but I’m leaning moza just because I think they have better wheels and also a truck wheel upcoming. Is there any good round simagic wheel? I found they have too few buttons for my need and no d-pad, plus they are almost twice the price
That is true. Simagic wheels could cost a bit more depending on where you live. I don't think there is a round rim with d-pad. But it has a good solution. Either you can opt for a Moza setup, or if you want a Simagic base, you can buy a CS and swap the QR on the back with a Simagic one.
@@darthsnapecs wheel on alpha mini would be the perfect solution for me personally, but I’ve asked people this and everyone’s said you can’t actually use third party wheels on alpha mini and have buttons and everything work
@FlamingCurtain Once again you’re absolutely right. It is a tradeoff. But I wouldn’t recommend against Moza. Both are capable bases. But if it comes down to steering wheel, I’d say, given your usage, Moza might suit you better.
@@darthsnape I'm quite curious not about the strength, which is obvious 10 vs 23 but the feedback/feeling it feels. With the Ultimate I feel more things? Does the same effect feel different? I would love to know from your experience what differences there are between them on how they feel. If the only difference is strength or not?
@@darthsnape thank you for making such a great video! you are the most informative sim UA-camr I've seen, please, if possible do an r9 vs mini as I've seen lots of people asking around the Internet about a comparison.
@sleep600 I appreciate your kind words Sleep 😄 Regarding R9, it is every bit of the same base as R12. R12 just has extra torque. Nothing more. Whatever you have gathered from this video regarding R12, just decrease a bit of torque on it, and voila, it’s R9. I owned R9 for about 10 months before switching up the base.
@@darthsnape I've heard from other comments that the r9 is somehow bette than the alpha mini but the r12 is worse, just wondering if there's any truth to that. looking at the spec sheet for the r9 u are right tho they are virtually the same
@sleep600 R9 is a bit better than R12. R12 feels like an overclocked R9. It’s very violent. But both R9 and R12 are more or less similar. And alpha mini being alpha mini, is just a notch above.
A few notes about Simagic Alpha: Make sure to use Simpro 2 and the newer firmwares; the PID params are quite a bit better and the wheel behaves more sensibly under high ramp. It can be a bit erratic in older versions. I suspect damping was changed somehow; dunno. Still not ideal, but I don't know if DirectInput wheels can be. The new stuff only released a little while ago, so some firmwares might be out of date. Use Wheel speed 0% in the firmware; it is a negative damping effect and very bad to have if the sim is realistic; it will cause even more over-correction than is already inherent to simulation gear running on contemporary sim models. On that note, the feedback frequency setting is also unneeded IMO. 0 always. It just causes very strange delayed peaking for me.
As shown in the video, I was and still am using Simpro2. Massive improvement over the 1.3. At the time of testing I was using 185, which got superseded by 186, I believe.
so let me understand, i should use wheel speed 0 or shouldnt? i currently have it on 50% and mostly drive the rss formula's on AC, i noticed 100% is too high, actually had a couple finger injuries :D 50 is much better, it does correct a slide, but its not that agressive
@@ArchOfficial thank you very much! i will try 0 when i get back to my rig and definately reply here after some driving. Looking forward to improving my experience!
@@Berci1511 "Feedback Detail" is also not exactly what the tooltip suggests; it's basically the chip frequency for the PID control. So max it out. It will buzz and whine a tiny bit more, but work better to control the wheel as intended.
Tbh there can’t be a fair comparison because one is literally £400 difference after base,wheel and pedals using the base equipment I’ve just got my r12 not even out the box yet and was worried that I’ve made the wrong decision going moza but no matter how I look at it as long as the moza doesn’t give me problems it’s still £400 cheaper than simagic so it’s ever 400 reasons the financial better option or 400 wrong financial option but I won’t know until I’ve unboxed it and tried it Admittedly on discord there no or hardly no one saying there hardware problems simagic but on the moza discord there many to be found which don’t present a good look and I’d of probably would of saved more to gone simagic because of this I just hope moza is not a hit and miss product hardware wise and there are people who are happy with the r12 and pray I’m one of them
Moza has been known to have some QC riddled products. You can check reddit for that. But aside from that and my statements regarding the comparison, R12 is a great base. And I hope it doesn’t give you any problems.
Hey do you still have your R12? If so, how's it been for you so far? I'm leaning more towards Moza over Simagic since they're more affordable and I prefer their rims
@@TechnoKube I’ve not tried a simagic so I can’t compare but honestly like I say I’d rather save that extra money you’ll pay for simagic ,you could put that to more fancy pedals not that I find anything wrong with moza srp load cell pedals or a more fancy wheel than the es wheel In my opinion on the r12 seems great to me,really powerful that I turn it down ,no functioning problems,i could of even maybe of purchased the r9 instead and used the money else where on my set up like I said Simagic maybe better but in what way and I doubt you could tell anyway I don’t think you will be disappointed in ever choice but the R12 is working great for me
@TechnoKube At the end of the day, that’s what matters. If you like the R12, go for it. Don’t think like you’re missing out on anything. Both are nice bases.
@@StOrMmaGiiKz Yeah thank you both for the replies! I'm gonna stick to my guns on this one and not fall into the habit of spending more and more money out of fear of getting an unsatisfactory experience. I'm not an enthusiast but just here for a fun time so I should be fine
Simucube and Asetek bases have their peak and sustained torque mentioned in their website. Which is transparent. Other manufacturers should provide similar data. Moza’s base didn’t feel like 12Nm and Simagic felt more than 10Nm. So I guess a lot of manufacturers have to update their specifications properly. It can be a bit misleading.
@@darthsnape simagic feels more than 10nm cus it is more than 10. an iracing dev tested it to be close to 13nm. and Dan Suzuki tested it to loss vary little force ounce it got hot even if he had it at 100%ffb for a long time. so you could say its 12 continuous
Sure thing. Although AMS2 now supports per car ffb. So you might need to tweak some things to your liking. Simpro 2 Settings - Degree of rotation - 900° Force Feedback - 100% Smoothness - 2 Wheel Rotation Speed - 25 Feedback Detail - 6 Max Torque - 10.0 Nm Mechanical Damper - 15% Mechanical Friction - 15% Mechanica Inertia - 0% Feedback Frequency - 0 In game - Type - Default+ Low Force boost - 0 FX - 20 Damping - 0 Strength - 0 Menu Spring Strength - 0
Note - I deliberately tested Moza R12 with a circular rim. ES weighs around 1kg and is 11 inches in diameter. So theoretically it has all the advantage over the Alpha mini as I used the GT1R rim which is 13 inches in diameter and weighing around 1.9kg. Basic physics dictate that the heavier the rim, the harder the motor has to work to rotate it. And somehow Alpha mini felt a bit stronger.
so you recommended alpha mini ? :
@@mertparatorr Celui que vous pouvez payer .... le reste à ce stade est subjectif, mais simagic a toujours été au dessus de moza et de bien d`autres
@mertduyar689 Yes. But that is purely my opinion.
I don't know what sort of settings you used for Moza R12 you are clipping hard.You have to set FFB according to cars and tracks.When i set AC in-game gain 65%-70% to avoid clipping details from road textures, curbs, asphalt, tires come alive.And i have R9 , similar but definitely missing the extra details r12 has to offer.
@GreekSIMRACING I agree. Clipping can make all the dynamic forces mushy. But my sweet spot revolved around 12-15Nm. Which is why I had to turn the gain up to 85% on Content Manager.
After watching about 15 minutes, your commentary started to feel a bit off and unfair to me. I went back to the intro to see if the video was sponsored since I got distracted at first, and things got even more confusing. But honestly, no one seems more confused than you.
Disclaimer: "Not sponsored."
Next scene: "this video has been made possible by Simagic" ??
...
As someone who's used both, I agree the Simagic Alpha Mini has some advantages over the R12, but you don't seem fair in a lot of your points. And the info about the poles you mentioned? That’s just nonsense.
I wish Pole count was non sense.
And regarding the “made possible” statement, I don’t blame you. My poor choice of words led this to happen.
But anyways, thanks for your comment!
How is it not sponsored if literally on 10 second of the video you mention simagic as a sponsor
The base is provided to me by my reseller (VirtualRacingHub). It is his personal unit. And I never said sponsor. I said this video has been made possible by Simagic and VRH.
Also, I did wrote things on Disclaimer.
lol obviously you don’t understand how UA-cam works. When you say possible by a company that means they sponsor you lol
@@darthsnapehow is it that base was provided by VRH but simagic also made it possible? 😂
@mkatakm Simagic asked VRH to loan me a unit.
@@darthsnape hmm. But that looks like sponsorship to me. Despite that I can't say your review is biased. It is a good review.
I have the Moza base and I tested the Alpha Mini and noticed some details: the Alpha Mini is smoother, the strength is at least the same as the Moza, I feel more rubber details on the track, more grip, I also thought the response time was better than at Moza. This smoothness is good especially on curbs and bumps, in the middle of the track I feel a little numb. The Moza is a little more notched (which can be reduced in the track details option), perhaps because of this, there is more vibration in the steering wheel, which I don't think is a bad thing, it seems more vibrant on the track, I think it depends on how you want the steering wheel to behave, but I agree that the Alpha Mini is purer, it mixes the effects less, which makes driving easier. I would also have to have the Mini in my house to have a better perception, but both bases are excellent, each with its own proposal.
Precisely, ffb subjectivity is a big thing but, like you said, Alpha mini felt smoother while providing the crucial details. I felt the same things.
S.O.S hello sir! i am between moza r9 and alpha mini..i know apla mini is better, but from what i see on videos i see way faster wheel speed from r9 than tha aplha mini? do you know anything about that? your opinion will save me from buing something wrong for the 2nd time! i want it for drift! thank you
@sakishouse_music1225 Alpha mini has better speed overall because of lower pole count in the motor. Not saying that R12 is a poor choice by any means. But in my opinion after testing thoroughly and owning Moza products, I arrived to the conclusion that Simagic’s motor is smoother. And when it comes to drifting, I have seen a lot of people choose Simagic over anything.
@@darthsnape thank you sir!! i appreciate your time!
@@darthsnape Hello, with all due respect, with the number of poles in a motor, not everything is so simple, otherwise manufacturers would make bipolar motors; They have the highest speed and are ideal for fans, but have low torque, which affects power and acceleration. In general, there are many nuances))
We definitely need to see more subjective comparisons like this. I actually liked how you compared their ffb in terms of music by genre. First time I’ve seen that.
I hope I was objective enough😅
Fewer pole pairs doesn't mean better performance.
The more pole pairs the motor has, the slower the motor's movement speed. But also there will be more pole pairs in each phase of the stator as the motor makes one revolution and this allows for more positioning information and therefore higher stability and positioning accuracy.
When the number of poles of the motor is reduced, the theoretical maximum speed of the motor will increase, but its low speed performance will decrease. When the torque is approaching the maximum torque, the improvement in low speed performance is limited. This makes precision and stability of the motor's movement worse.
Exactly!! Very interesting aspect of comparing products is introduced wrong.
Lower number of poles give faster revolutionS - when we talk about printers and drones. In case of 180-360deg for majority of cases, more poles - the better initial speed and precision (rapid movements).
But doesn’t AC and DC motor work differently when it comes to pole count? In an AC motor (which is what is typically used in dd bases, simucube, simagic, fanatec, etc) the pole count directly affects the speed as opposed to a DC motor where the speed is mainly controlled/influenced by voltage.
It is important to understand which motor we are talking about.
Great review just in time as I am moving over to SIMAGIC. Your attention to detail helped me make up my mind.
Thank you, Bob! I’m glad you enjoyed it.
You are one of the best youtubers so far regarding sim gear! Also, I agree with you regarding the lock-up feel though I have the R5. It's extremely hard to notice when Im under-/oversteering/lock-up in ACC no matter what I do in the settings...
Thanks! Hopefully the new gen ffb fixes that issue.
I prefer the loaf of bread aesthetic too! Love your work Snape, your writing and pacing continues to impress
Thank you so much, Doctor! 😄
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
I need to stop watching all the mini alpha videos. My bank account giving me a bad look every time 🤣🤣
The fun with Alpha mini will make up for the troubles to you bank 😄
@@darthsnape stop it u evil !
I just had to look on the video to see that the FFB settings for Moza was very bad setup. Looking closer on your settings just proved my point. Well, guess video was made possible by simagic..
Well, I did say that ffb is highly subjective and whatever I have felt, can be felt or not felt by others.
Funny thing about ffb is, that no one is ever truly “right” or has the “best” settings.
Hi just subscribed! I can only name one other reviewer that comes close to your approach and it is very much appreciated. You are very good at anticipating questions from an audience that has already spent countless hours researching on possible wheel bases - but you actually answer the questions only an owner of the base can answer. Not only that, I really I appreciate the detail when it comes to the engineering and software that go beyond what the marketing page tells us.
Hi, Thank you very much. I try my best to answer all the “Why should you care about this thing or feature” questions, because I believe that marketing pages don’t tell a lot of things. I’m glad you enjoyed it and I hope I was able to provide a different outlook.
@@darthsnape would love to hear the technical read out for the logi pro, its reported at 11nm sustained and it certainly feels like it peaks higher, detail feels amazing but i dont have a point of comparison
@@awakeandwatching953 Ever since it has been released, I have seen quite a handful of people talking about it. I'd love to take a look at it too. I'll see what I can do. 👀
@@awakeandwatching953 i have the Logitech Pro and love it, but came here thinking i might want to upgrade to Simagic as I just purchased their ds-8x shifter and am completely impressed with its build quality. This review did point out some compatibility with games issue that has me feeling like I should stick with Logitech Pro as it has compatibility with any game I would choose to run. While I am disappointed with the offerings from Logitech as far as the eco system goes, I am not sure I would prefer a bigger eco system and more compatibility issues. Would love to see @darthsnape do a review of the Pro to see where it falls on the scale in comparison to other wheels sets. Great review and I also subscribed.
I was ready to buy a Moza R9 'til I found out there's a local Simagic distributor and now I'm going with the Alpha Mini and the GT Pro wheel
I am still going with Moza SR-P pedals for now. Currently using a Logitech G920 lol I can't wait!
Thanks for the video!
Anytime man! Happy to help
Спасибо за обзор, думал взять мозу р12, но лучше возьму мозу р16 с 18бит энкодером, и у мозы большое количество аксесуаров и они дешевле
Test asetek laprima very high quality 12nm
I'll try to get it on my hands!
I have an R9 and can confirm that the FFB curve tweak does get rid of the oscillation. Known tweak within the Moza Discord community and confirmed working for the R5/R9/R12 bases
Thanks Gregory! I’ll include this the next time I get my hands on a Moza base.
does alpha mini have the same wheel speed as r9? because moza is so fast on rotation man,and that is what keep me from buying the alpha mini..
@sakishouse_music1225 Alpha mini will rotate faster than R9 or R12 because of lower pole count on the motor.
Hello, I have a question: what do you think is better, moza r12 or simetik alpha 15nm
Both are great bases, but if budget isn't an issue, Simagic is a good choice.
I upgraded from R12 to R21 V2 because I needed more precision. However I never had oscillation problems you had with R12. I was able to find very good settings for my games. I suppose that's because I worked on all settings individually and learned them well enough. Most of those R12 problems are because of wrong settings.
I think R12 is good enough for its price.
I don't have any experience with Alpha Mini but looking at so many reviews of it everybody agrees that it feels stronger than advertised and it's much smoother and precise than R12.
I believe the "oscillation problem" perceived by many is a bit over-exaggerated. DDs are violent by nature and they are bound to oscillate. Since R12 had a smaller motor, it didn't had much natural inertia, causing the excessive oscillations. Bigger motors have more natural inertia, making them comparatively stable. My lack of knowledge at that time made me under explain some stuff.
But in any case, R21 should be a plenty powerful base with absolutely 0 issues. I look forward to reviewing Moza gear if I get a chance.
Hello there, last week i raced for 6 hours straight with my Moza R12 on 100% FFB and it never reduced its power, it was perfect 👌🏽
I’m really glad to hear that. There has been quite a number of complaints regarding fading issues, I just wasn’t sure if it was as prominent in an R12 as it was/is in an R9.
R12 just got FFB3.0 updated. Can you do some comparison again? Because some people said it's pretty solid update for the R12
It has piqued my interest and I am planning on pursuing the topic. Even if not a proper comparison, at the very least, an in depth look.
I noticed that the tip of the shaft of your Simagic base is heavily scratched, was that intentional? I'm asking because I just got an Alpha base and had to make a massive effort to attach the FX wheel, and now it's stuck, I can't remove it. did you (or anyone else reading this) have any similar issue?
great review btw, helped me choose the Alpha over the R12
Hey there, the Alpha mini was actually provided by a local reseller. The QR was scratched because of multiple attaching and detaching of the rim. It doesn’t have any effect on the usability.
And, no, I haven’t had a stuck rim. Could you tell me how you’re removing it and what do you mean by stuck?
Also, you can join Simagic’s discord server and post a quick video. They’ll be able to help you out more quickly.
This is the exact comparison I needed, and as a note, I have a Moza R5 with a KS wheel, and even that will oscillate like crazy going down a straight, I think it’s a Moza thing for all wheelbases as of now.
I had a similar experience with R5, R9 and R12. Sadly, I too believe that this is a Moza thing.
There is option to disable oscillating....
@@cal50xare you talking about using the wheel friction or natural inertia? I’ve tried using both, and I can get the car to track straight with some oscillation, but using so much of either kills a lot of the other forces I normally notice when driving at least personally just to dampen the oscillation. For me at least, it’s more the fact I can’t get the right feel without oscillation, that’s the issue I have.
Though using an R5 definitely has an impact on this, more so than the 9 and 12 due to the lack of peak torque
yay, look at the paid fanboy. can't watch anymore!!
Thanks! Have a good day :)
Well done Review, but one thing bothered me as a guy with a music-making past. PLEASE don't place the microphone on the same table where you knock on something. You get 80-90% resonance from the table instead of the desired sound.
Thank you very much. Do you have any advice on microphone placement?
@darthsnape this was one of the most informative videos I've watched on the subject. Thank you for taking the time to put this together.
I’m glad you enjoyed it Robert! Thanks for watching. 😄
Another amazing video, just watched it till the end
Really appreciate it man. I’m glad you’re enjoying my content!
The number of pole pairs also affects the electromagnetic characteristics of the motor. The more pole pairs, the higher the efficiency of the motor, since the magnetic field will be more uniform. This allows for smoother and more stable engine running. Also, the number of pole pairs affects the torque and power of the motor. Typically, motors with more pole pairs will have higher torque, allowing these motors to be used to handle heavier loads.
Precisely! Thanks for sharing
Yes, Simagic 5pole design is more rpm per volt than the moza 8pole = more granularity available in motor control.
I run rc cars on oval. Its very true.
But Simagic is stroner anyway. They underrated torque of that motor.
It sure feels like that.
They did not under rate it. It is rated for continuous output ( 10nm ) the motor will peak at up to 13nm.
The Moza on the other hand is rated for its peak output ( 12nm ) - Which means its not running at 12nm most of the time.
@@albey1816 Asetek and Simucube mentions the sustained time of peak torque output in their website. That is something which I hope other manufacturers should start sharing as well.
Using music as a way of communicating how two different force feedbacks feel is an absolute win! 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
It is difficult to take this as an objective opinion when its sponsored by Simagic. Also, that fact seems to directly contradict the opening disclaimer. Might be something to consider next time :)
Hello Chemist. It’s hard to convince anyone that this isn’t a sponsored video, considering there are a bunch of channels with amazing audience Simagic can choose to sponsor. Makes literally 0 sense for them to pay me any penny when I don’t even have an audience base.
But, it’s fine if you want to believe this is sponsored. Thanks for watching!
@@darthsnape your video says it is sponsored by Simagic after saying it isn't. Maybe that isn't your intention, but "brought to you by Simagic" and "sponsored by" mean the same thing. You then go on to find Simagic to be vastly superior by every metric, lol.
@lavachemist Where exactly did I say “brought to you by Simagic”? I said “this video has been made possible by Simagic and VRH” (retailer who provided me his personal unit. The usage can be seen on the shaft of Alpha mini with chipped paint)
I’m not sure if you read the Disclaimer correctly, but, It’s alright if you disagree with my opinion. Me saying Simagic being better than R12 is my experience. I spent almost a year with Moza before switching to Simagic. But don’t feel obliged to agree with every reviewer’s perspective. Afterall a customer should not buy/think about buying a product just because their favorite reviewer said it’s good or not.
That music comparison was amazing haha
Thanks! 😄
Great review
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Hello, this video was very helpfull and full of "GOOD" information.
You have tried both the alpha mini and ultimate and i would like to ask you a question.
What are the advantages instead bying the Mini at 600EU going for the Ultimate for 1050EU.
Im sure the alpha would be insanely good and more that enough but its always that voice in my head saying that
"If you buy the ultimate you will never need any other wheel base etc."
But thats just human greediness and my question to someone who tried both what are the objective and subjective benefits of going ultimate?
My assumption is that more is better for : downforce , no clipping , no heat , slew rate , broken fingers😅
And never wanting more.
But the real question is , are you having more fun?
Hey ZapZap! First of all, thanks for watching my video. I’m really glad you found it helpful.
Now onto your question. Regarding this very thing, a video is currently under production which should out in a week or so.
But I’d still tell you about it. Owning a 20Nm+ base does help. Better slew rate, faster response, more range for dynamic forces to be delivered uninterrupted, having extra torque headroom, better encoder and stronger motor, etc. As a person who has upgraded from R9 thinking 9Nm is enough, I must say, if not for the Alpha U, atleast go for the 15Nm Alpha. A little bit of extra torque headroom definitely helps.
A 20Nm base running at 50% capacity will outperform a 10Nm base running at 100% capacity. Clipping can happen on literally any base which is running at near 90-95% of it’s rated capacity. Clipping can occur on a 15Nm base if I get it close to max. But, say, your sweet spot is around 10-12Nm, getting the Alpha or the Alpha U makes sense.
Think of these equipments as speakers. 100% volume sort of destroys the music and makes a bit of a hotchpotch. All the mids, lows and highs get mixed up. But in a speaker with higher wattage, these problems would be less noticeable.
If you can go for the Alpha U, definitely go for it and be done with it once and for all. I did the same. No need to look for an upgrade anymore. 😄
@@darthsnape
Wow what a fast and presice response.
Thank you.
Actually i always think that the best base is a little too much but now i in a bit confused.
I am waiting for your video and i think it will be very helpfull for a lot of people.
Its very difficult to find such things in reddit cause no one tried them all.(except ytbers ofc)
I was gonna ask reddit but now when you release the video im gonna post it in reddit post to make a discussion about it.
Im sure its gonna be good
Good day to you
@zapzapzap123 Happy to help. I intend to clear up the point of owning a 20Nm+ base as my video mainly will be revolving around the ownership experience where I will be touching some crucial points.
@@darthsnape
I think i will go with the alpha.
The mini is just there and the Ultimate is just too much.
The alpha seems just right in the middle.
Thank you for the help
@zapzapzap123 Alpha seems like the best option. Enjoy zap zap!
Can you use the Alpha Mini, with a Moza Wheel? I would buy the Alpha Mini, but the wheel options of Simagic are expensive
Moza FSR supports a data port but it's hard to say that all of the rims would work on Simagic as they are wireless and both bases have different pins on the shaft
Im pretty sure the only wheel from moza that can be used with 3rd party bases is the new KS wheel that comes with a direct usb connection to pc if used on a 3rd party base.
@@bodasafur6078no that’s not how it works. You need moza universal hub to use moza wheels that are capable with simagic or other bases
So my friend, which one would you choose for drifting?
Alpha mini for drifting as It’s smoother.
That was an extensive and great comparison, thank you!
I was wondering if you could share some info about third-party wheel support on the Simagic Alpha Mini? Maybe also if it's possible to use Moza's wheels on the Alpha Mini?
Also looking forward to your EA WRC gameplay/review.
Thank you, Kabir! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
And to answer your question, any wheel can be used on Simagic products as long as you get the QR system from their end. As a matter of fact, this is applicable to all manufacturers. Get the QR right, and any wheel would work. Even Moza's.
But, just in case you were wondering, no, I did not snap Moza's rim directly to Simagic's base and vice-versa as I was scared of damaging the pins. Dan Suzuki however did say that Moza KS worked on Simagic base without swapping the QR.
I felt a personal attack when you said "if you skipped to here" haha
Hello Darth Snape. Thanks for this video. Made the decision much easier for me. And especially the FFB comparison with the music. Awesome.
1000 words can't describe it better.
Thank you very much. I'm looking to review the R12 again since it got the new ffb algorithm update.
GREAT Comparison! Is hard to find that level of fundaments that you show here. Thanks for made and share it!
Thank you for your kind words. 😄
Super impressive review, great work... Glad I clicked!!
Thank you, Spence! I’m glad you liked it😄
At first I was going to go for the KS Wheel with an R5 but I think I’m about to put myself in some more debt now bc of this video…
Thanks? 😂
😂 You’re welcome!
8:40 Just a note, Simucube 2 bases had Hands-Off Detection since their launch in 2019. So not unique to Moza.
Thanks for the info! I didn’t knew that.
lol they were released before 2019 😂 so learn some facts
@@SIMRIG412 ??
@@SIMRIG412 the point of my comment was to point out that the Simucube 2 bases have had the feature since day one of its release and it not a feature that only Moza bases have. Also, I believe Moza only got into Sim Racing hardware in around 2021.
Steering wheel chatter is a behavior specific to FFBs that do not have feedback from the seat.
If you are involved in FFB design, you will understand.
It is one way of expressing it.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing this!
Extremely comprehensive detailed and professional review.
Thank you very much Eran!
Does Alpha mini supports thrustmaster pedals and shifter? Sorry for noob question. I just wanted to know. And why they are selling that much expensive?
Any base would support any pedal or shifter because they will be connected via USB port in the PC. So no worries in that department.
And about the price difference, it is because of the components and manufacturing (maybe)
I think I’m getting rid of my sprints for the P1000’s as well. They look like an awesome set of pedals with a great price.
I want to switch to P1000s so bad, but the sprints have been soooo good.
Thank you for the great quality and knowledgable video review.
Thank you Joe
would you even feel that 262k points in the steering wheel vs 32k? thats like 320hz vs 2620hz monitor would you even spot the difference in feel and as to what degree do you need that fine cut of the pie?
Under a lot of circumstances, Yes. The difference can be felt, but, It won't be a day and night difference. Think of it as smoothening out the rough edges. To a person buying a base, both are excellent options. Since I compared both, I felt that difference and had to talk about it. To a normal sim-racer, that difference will forever remain unknown.
my Atari Jaguar was 64bit... and not that good
That 64bit was the architecture, not the resolution of an absolute encoder.
@@darthsnape my point was more bits does not equal more better
@gaminginstilllife9429 It actually does. Look up absolute encoder resolution and ppr.
@gaminginstillife9429 What you may be getting confused is between the “bit”. A CPU/GPU has a certain design which is referred to as architecture. 64bit architecture is better than 32bit. Search 32bit vs 64bit processor or windows OS.
There is however a difference in 32bit architecture and 15bit encoder resolution of a position sensor.
A position sensor is used for precision while measuring or calculating the position of an object in linear or 3d space, not to run games on Atari Jaguar.
Similar to how a 15 bit encoder cannot replace a 64 bit architecture on….You guessed it. Atari Jaguar :)
I would definitely buy a Hilux over an MX5 lmao.
Toyota supremacy 🫡
Aviation grade aluminum, probably Boeing 🤣
Lol 😂 Moza Boeing
Should have been "may the force feedback be with you."
You are right. It's less about downforce and more about force feedback 😅
You think maybe I can use it lol?
Excellent review. Very precise and very informative. Well done.
Thanks! I’m glad you enjoyed it
@@darthsnapeI have an alpha mini and you're spot on with everything. Excellent product. I hope you do more reviews again.
@lawrenegummy4736 Nothing would bring me more joy!
I really enjoyed this review. Condensed to the point and good analogies. Well done, keep it up!
Thank you! I’m glad you enjoyed.
I've had my Moza R9 for 1.5 years now and currently selling my moza gear to make the jump to simagic. I think ive decided on the alpha mini as my upgrade as the alpha is just a little bit pricey for me and I never felt like I needed much more power out of my R9. Do you think the mini will still be enough of an upgrade from the R9?
From an R9 it would be hard to justify the mini as an upgrade. But the details and the extra torque would make up for it, if you could get it at a decent price.
If you are planning on upgrading, I’d suggest go the extra mile and get an Alpha. Once and for all.
@@darthsnape thanks for response! All this sim gear seems to hold its value quite well when reselling to upgrade so maybe I will try to front the extra money for the alpha :)
Your analogy of the force feedback with music is the most hilarious, and brilliant shit I have ever seen LOL. TY
Haha, thank you Cat!
The review I've been waiting for 👍
I hope you enjoyed it!
More content to follow.
The one you reviewed is the older version of the alpha mini. The new alpha mini is smaller and have a different power supply. Not sure if the new base can actually reach 13nm like everyone is saying about the alpha mini v1. I have the v3 but not sure how to test the torque
Absolutely. I believe that Boosted media and Dan suzuki got V3s as well, and you can check Dan’s review where he measured the ffb output peak at 13ish Nm.
@@darthsnape Boosted media did get the V3 but Dan Suzuki got the v1 for review
@@aphae I read some similar things on Facebook and Reddit I think. I'll try and see if I can get my hands on it to make a video.
What is the wheel you’re using?
I’m about to order alpha mini but can’t decide between GTS gt1 or gt pro.
I guess gt1 is out of the question because no funky switch, d pad or even an analog so no way to navigate menu
Yeah, for menu navigation I use mouse and keyboard. For all games actually. I own the GT1.
You can get the GTS as it has rpm lights and is 11” in diameter. I chose GT1 because of its larger diameter.
Been trying to buy the alpha mini for months and at this point I’m just sick of waiting. How can you be out of stock for months straight though the holiday season ??? I don’t know if I wanna continue to wait then fight for one in another 6-8 weeks
Not sure my friend. You might want to check with Simagic directly or your reseller.
I want one yesterday! Gotta figure out how to find an extra 2k.
Which one are you opting for? R12 or Alpha mini?
Actually looking at both of these wheels as an upgrade from my G920. had a TM TS-PC in the past so the Logitech feels clunky. Thanks for the review definetly filled in allot of my questions on them both.
From TS-PC, both will feel like night and day! I’m glad you enjoyed.
That was an amazing comparison, thank you! Maybe you have the chance to test out Asetek hardware?
I’ll try my best to make that happen! I’m glad you enjoyed the video.
This was a great video
Thanks much! 😄
so is everyone saying that the R12 doesnt feel like a 12 NM base? that its weaker?
what if i have only 2 options in my area which should i get
the R12+ KS wheel or cammus 15NM?
That's a very good question. I can't say much about Cammus as I haven't tested it. Moza R12 can be a good option for you. It ultimately depends on how much you want to spend in this hobby.
Interesting review…but in order to compare the dd bases you really have to install and use the exact same wheel. The steering wheels play a huge role as they carry weight and the size and shape makes all the difference. So for example, if you used the Moza KS wheel and installed it on both the simagic base and the R12, then that comparison would be more valid, fair and unbiased. Also having said that, the software ffb settings can really alter the driving experience so these comparisons are very difficult to evaluate. If the Moza pit house settings are set incorrectly, it can really affect the review. Not sure, but did you also mention if you were using the same racing sim software as well, with the same in game settings for both the bases?
You are right, the wheel plays a huge role as the overall diameter and weight can really effect the ffb. It was my plan to use one wheel on both bases, but I had very limited time with them. I'll keep a note of this for upcoming videos.
And like I have mentioned in my other videos as well, the ffb segment is heavily subjective. There is no "right" or "wrong" force feedback settings. During my time of testing, there were not a whole lot of differences. And I was only able to tell the differences (based on my ffb settings) because there was a comparison. Otherwise, it is really hard to tell most dds apart. The main factor which differentiates the overall feel is the quality of motor. Sure the software helps, but you can only do so much tweaking to extract the details.
For a day to day sim racer, any base would be good. But I firmly believe that hardware matters. If bought an equipment, the software can be fixed, hardware cannot.
Your Wheelstand (which model if i ask?) can handle those wheelbases at max torque?
edit: what i've forgot, outstanding review, so many details and some background informations. Very rare and i would love to see more reviews from you (Fanatec, Asetek)
Hey Razor, I use a NLR GT track cockpit. It can easily handle both R12 and Alpha mini at max torque. I have mounted my Alpha U (23nm) and haven’t had any issues.
@@darthsnape Incredible, thanks for the very fast response. Due to space issues, i would use a NLR Wheelstand 2.0 which is more or less your setup without the seat etc.
@R4ZORLIGHT I gotchu man. I would say that as long as the stand stays at one place, it can handle these bases easily.
i am noticing in the video that FFB is peaking.. hence clipping is happening and cutting detail.
You’re right. I was using around 85-90% of total force. 100% maxed in software, around 90% in game.
that 90% in game is whats causing that.. that needs to be dropped to 75-80 where it stops turning red. @@darthsnape
@blacknovella Once again, you’re right. But in that range it feels too weak. Like I mentioned in my video, R12 was like Phonk. It has a lot of torque, but the detail is a tad bit missing. Mainly because of the encoder differences.
But it isn’t that bad. Both are really capable bases for anyone upgrading from Logitech or TM.
Question as I have the same cockpit. Do both mount out of the box ?
Yeah both fit nicely out of the box.
Stellar review!
Thank you!
Well done review.
Thanks!
I’ve watched many reviews but this one really stands out. Thank you. Also this costs me a lot of money as I was deciding between cheaper r9 / ks or alpha mini / gt neo combi. Believe it’s worth the upgrade. Also I would never forget that music reference 😂 Thanks for the effort, appreciated
Thanks much, Arjan! I’m glad you enjoyed 😄
Great video! Any opinion on the sigma cortex for simagic with Playstation?
I don't have a console so I can't speak for that. But I have heard a few people running simagic gear on a PS comfortably.
I'm glad none of this is a dealbreaker in the end for Moza R12, but I do wish the software can become better and not oscillate as much in the future.
None of this finer detail thing is a problem as long as I don't have much experience with other DDs, it's still leaps better than my former T300RS.
I now wish someone can pinpoint if there's FFB detail in Moza we're missing and find a way to improve it.
Since all motors are different, their ffb will be different as well. And on top of it, personal preference plays a huge role. So, it is really a hard question to answer. But the details on R12 did feel a little faint and kind of a hoch poch. The progression was missing. But like you said, unless you haven't tried a bunch of dds, it won't matter!
Brilliant video, I enjoyed every second. The music comparison was brilliant, and laugh-out-loud funny on top of it. I'm considering switching from the R12 to the Alpha Mini because I indeed don't feel like being a sigma all the time 😂
You need way more subs... all the best
I'm glad you enjoyed it, Ethan 😄
i know the alpha mini is better but .... i realy don't like the simagic wheels , i need almost one round wheels with button on it and the first one from simagic is at 450€ (with almost same button than the moza one) moza CS is enought for only 280 € , it's my first (and probably last) DD for me and for now (without the new fanatec Clubsport DD) Moza are the best for me (bcz i need all , base/wheels/pedale) in my case , moza it's best value for quality/money and my need.
Moza is absolutely great value for money and pricing plays a huge role in decision making. But as long as you’re having fun, you’re good!
@@darthsnape i'm going to enjoy for sure ^^, i just wana take one and keep it , 12nm it's probably enough (even 8 or 9 nm can be enough but some extra power to be sure bcz i can put little bit more money for a 10/12 nm)
I have the exact same problem, I can get the alpha mini for same price as r12 in my country, but the wheels are so bad and expensive. All I want is a round wheel with a d pad and more buttons.
Only moza has this, and their cs v2P wheel is literally the perfect wheel for me…
Great video. Moving from a Moza R9 to Alpha mini... really it's due to the gt neo wheel and not having to use the cable, but I've never been completely happy with the R9 vs my old CSL DD 8nm, the moza feels more, I don't know for sure, just sluggish and more heavy on big effects rather than smaller ones, can't put my finger on it but hoping the Alpha Mini resolves it.
I know what you’re feeling. I have felt it too. Let me know if you feel any of differences I mentioned in this video.
can i ask you something? im between r9 and aplha mini,but i dont know if aplha mini has that good wheel speed as r9? because i need it for drift and i saw lots of videos, and r9 wheel speed is crazy..is aplha mini has that powerfull wheel speed?
Both the bases will provide more than enough rotation speed than a person could ask for. But my preference would go towards Simagic because their motor is smoother.
@@darthsnape thank you for the 3d time! i know i am a little silly i asked the same thing so many times but ive been busted before and i lost about 500 euros .i hope you understand!! thanks a lot again!
@sakishouse_music1225 You can ask as many times as you want. It’s good to be absolutely sure before investing such huge sums of money :)
What mount/sim rig are you using?
I’m using a Next level racing GT track cockpit.
I can get both of these wheelbases for the exact same price in Norway, but I’m leaning moza just because I think they have better wheels and also a truck wheel upcoming.
Is there any good round simagic wheel?
I found they have too few buttons for my need and no d-pad, plus they are almost twice the price
That is true. Simagic wheels could cost a bit more depending on where you live. I don't think there is a round rim with d-pad. But it has a good solution.
Either you can opt for a Moza setup, or if you want a Simagic base, you can buy a CS and swap the QR on the back with a Simagic one.
@@darthsnapecs wheel on alpha mini would be the perfect solution for me personally, but I’ve asked people this and everyone’s said you can’t actually use third party wheels on alpha mini and have buttons and everything work
@FlamingCurtain Once again you’re absolutely right. It is a tradeoff. But I wouldn’t recommend against Moza. Both are capable bases. But if it comes down to steering wheel, I’d say, given your usage, Moza might suit you better.
bro u need custom ffb for R12.. rfuktor
Yeah, one of my acquaintances did mention about the ffb curve.
@@darthsnape a game changer..100hz 50%
Good and accurate
Thank you Max.
I fucking love it when Engineers dig in to stuff like this. From a fellow nerd I thank you.
Nice review, very helpful.
I'm glad it helped, Aldo!
estoy de acuerdo
Thank you!
Very good review
I’m glad you enjoyed it
Great perspective!!!
Thank you
Very good Review and Comparison
It would be great to compare Alpha Mini vs Alpha Ultimate. Have you thought about it?
Thank you Kiwi
@@kiwiwiliwi I haven't really thought about it as both the bases sit on different categories. But do tell me if you want to know anything.
@@darthsnape I'm quite curious not about the strength, which is obvious 10 vs 23 but the feedback/feeling it feels. With the Ultimate I feel more things? Does the same effect feel different?
I would love to know from your experience what differences there are between them on how they feel.
If the only difference is strength or not?
@kiwiwiliwi The only difference will be strength as both use same motor and encoders. Nothing will be different except that.
bought the alpha mini and this video was the definitive reason i pulled the trigger. awesome informative video.
Thank you very much! And congratulations on your new base!
@@darthsnape thank you for making such a great video! you are the most informative sim UA-camr I've seen, please, if possible do an r9 vs mini as I've seen lots of people asking around the Internet about a comparison.
@sleep600 I appreciate your kind words Sleep 😄
Regarding R9, it is every bit of the same base as R12. R12 just has extra torque. Nothing more. Whatever you have gathered from this video regarding R12, just decrease a bit of torque on it, and voila, it’s R9.
I owned R9 for about 10 months before switching up the base.
@@darthsnape I've heard from other comments that the r9 is somehow bette than the alpha mini but the r12 is worse, just wondering if there's any truth to that. looking at the spec sheet for the r9 u are right tho they are virtually the same
@sleep600 R9 is a bit better than R12. R12 feels like an overclocked R9. It’s very violent.
But both R9 and R12 are more or less similar. And alpha mini being alpha mini, is just a notch above.
A few notes about Simagic Alpha:
Make sure to use Simpro 2 and the newer firmwares; the PID params are quite a bit better and the wheel behaves more sensibly under high ramp. It can be a bit erratic in older versions. I suspect damping was changed somehow; dunno. Still not ideal, but I don't know if DirectInput wheels can be. The new stuff only released a little while ago, so some firmwares might be out of date.
Use Wheel speed 0% in the firmware; it is a negative damping effect and very bad to have if the sim is realistic; it will cause even more over-correction than is already inherent to simulation gear running on contemporary sim models. On that note, the feedback frequency setting is also unneeded IMO. 0 always. It just causes very strange delayed peaking for me.
As shown in the video, I was and still am using Simpro2. Massive improvement over the 1.3.
At the time of testing I was using 185, which got superseded by 186, I believe.
so let me understand, i should use wheel speed 0 or shouldnt? i currently have it on 50% and mostly drive the rss formula's on AC, i noticed 100% is too high, actually had a couple finger injuries :D 50 is much better, it does correct a slide, but its not that agressive
@@Berci1511 0 is correct as far as input-output goes from what I can tell. Anything more is "amplified" and will give more than the car is asking for.
@@ArchOfficial thank you very much! i will try 0 when i get back to my rig and definately reply here after some driving. Looking forward to improving my experience!
@@Berci1511 "Feedback Detail" is also not exactly what the tooltip suggests; it's basically the chip frequency for the PID control. So max it out. It will buzz and whine a tiny bit more, but work better to control the wheel as intended.
I wanted to watch the video to help me with my purchasing decision.
10 second.......video sponsored by simagic.
STOP VIDEO, embarrassing
everything you need to know about this “unbiased comparison” is already at the very beginning of the video: it is sponsored by SIMAGIC
Did you read the very beginning of the video?
@@darthsnapeJust Indians being Indians 😂
😄 Probably
Brother he said he is sponsored but that plays no part in his review. Almost all manufacturers understand this when they sponsor creators.
Lol we all know he didn't read. Keep up the good vids. @darthsnape
Tbh there can’t be a fair comparison because one is literally £400 difference after base,wheel and pedals using the base equipment
I’ve just got my r12 not even out the box yet and was worried that I’ve made the wrong decision going moza but no matter how I look at it as long as the moza doesn’t give me problems it’s still £400 cheaper than simagic so it’s ever 400 reasons the financial better option or 400 wrong financial option but I won’t know until I’ve unboxed it and tried it
Admittedly on discord there no or hardly no one saying there hardware problems simagic but on the moza discord there many to be found which don’t present a good look and I’d of probably would of saved more to gone simagic because of this
I just hope moza is not a hit and miss product hardware wise and there are people who are happy with the r12 and pray I’m one of them
Moza has been known to have some QC riddled products. You can check reddit for that. But aside from that and my statements regarding the comparison, R12 is a great base. And I hope it doesn’t give you any problems.
Hey do you still have your R12? If so, how's it been for you so far? I'm leaning more towards Moza over Simagic since they're more affordable and I prefer their rims
@@TechnoKube I’ve not tried a simagic so I can’t compare but honestly like I say I’d rather save that extra money you’ll pay for simagic ,you could put that to more fancy pedals not that I find anything wrong with moza srp load cell pedals or a more fancy wheel than the es wheel
In my opinion on the r12 seems great to me,really powerful that I turn it down ,no functioning problems,i could of even maybe of purchased the r9 instead and used the money else where on my set up like I said
Simagic maybe better but in what way and I doubt you could tell anyway
I don’t think you will be disappointed in ever choice but the R12 is working great for me
@TechnoKube At the end of the day, that’s what matters. If you like the R12, go for it. Don’t think like you’re missing out on anything. Both are nice bases.
@@StOrMmaGiiKz Yeah thank you both for the replies! I'm gonna stick to my guns on this one and not fall into the habit of spending more and more money out of fear of getting an unsatisfactory experience. I'm not an enthusiast but just here for a fun time so I should be fine
Describe Nm as a continuous or peak power, that is the difference, and many brands only show what it can do, so the max
Simucube and Asetek bases have their peak and sustained torque mentioned in their website. Which is transparent. Other manufacturers should provide similar data. Moza’s base didn’t feel like 12Nm and Simagic felt more than 10Nm.
So I guess a lot of manufacturers have to update their specifications properly. It can be a bit misleading.
@@darthsnape simagic feels more than 10nm cus it is more than 10. an iracing dev tested it to be close to 13nm. and Dan Suzuki tested it to loss vary little force ounce it got hot even if he had it at 100%ffb for a long time. so you could say its 12 continuous
13.5 continues for 10 mins he held it pass the stop…. That would never happened normally unless torture testing
Care to share your Asm2 settings for the alpha mini please?
Sure thing. Although AMS2 now supports per car ffb. So you might need to tweak some things to your liking.
Simpro 2 Settings -
Degree of rotation - 900°
Force Feedback - 100%
Smoothness - 2
Wheel Rotation Speed - 25
Feedback Detail - 6
Max Torque - 10.0 Nm
Mechanical Damper - 15%
Mechanical Friction - 15%
Mechanica Inertia - 0%
Feedback Frequency - 0
In game -
Type - Default+
Low Force boost - 0
FX - 20
Damping - 0
Strength - 0
Menu Spring Strength - 0
Could you do the same for the moza settings please
I sadly don’t have access to Moza products.