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@@oswaldmattos8479 Nietzsche recognised this incoherence “God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?” Of course the consequences of his nihilism was madness.
Onesimus, God will always remain dead or non-existent for people without a moral compass. Just look at all the mass murderers of the world. Most were atheists with no regard for fellow man. All evil comes from man himself . It's a sad and disturbing state of affairs.
is meaningful to the ones who profit from the scam. snake oil. gotta feed yo kids bro even if tht takes writing fictional books. me personally I like Jk Rowling better.
Yeah if life is meaningless then why even wonder if you're life is meaningless? The fact that she's trying to figure that out shows that she sees value in her life, if she didn't she wouldn't even ask those questions, she just would let herself die and not eat pretty much. We all eat because we want to last and survive as much as we can and that's meaningful.
Susan Blackmore is quite brave to openly allow her beliefs to be critiqued. I respectfully disagree with her, but we so desperately need honest open dialog. I wish her happiness and hope she is well.
Glad you can do so. I can’t, if she purposely allows herself to live such a hopeless existence yet contradicts that by doing anything significant, then she doesn’t deserve my respect. Respect is earned.
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn Then what is the meaning of life? We all know that the biological meaning of life is to reproduce and to survive. But aside from that, what is the meaning of life in your opinion? And also if you compare it with the infinity of time and space. (Honest question and sorry for bad english or grammar).
@@quintens879 The meaning of life is to do something that lasts forever, and we’re proud of on this planet that was given to us. It’s a stunning world with so much to do & love. Above all else; we’re here to have fun & glorify our existence. At least, that’s just my thoughts, whatever the true answer is, I’m positive it’s not *Life is meaningless.*
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn when we come to life our life is meaningless. What we do in life is what gives it meaning. The things we try to achieve and we attach to it as you said something that lasts forever. Thats what gives meaning to our life. What you said doesnt contradict the phrase life is meaning less. You agree to it
Doesn't make it meaningful that she finds meaning in it. I used to find meaning in playing in the dirt as a kid, there was no value to it and how I felt about it didn't change that.
I mean…..she takes the time to dye specific sections of her hair green. If life is meaningless why bother with something as purely aesthetic as that? Silly argument to say that life is meaningless and then add “so just get on with it”. If life is meaningless then why bother to get on with anything? She’s chasing her own tail.
She inadvertantly confirmed the point C. S. Lewis made when he said, "If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."
Good quote! I would go even further and say that anyone who feels this way would probably find more satisfaction in this life by aiding in the pursuit of the creation of a world where they could fit in. Because if they feel that way, how many other humans feel the same? Inventing something new, coming up with a new school of thought or even just supporting someone who is in the pursuit of something novel would probably give people who feel like that that were interested a lot of meaning, or at the very least a suitable community.
@Luca StucaTrue, but IQ is not the only factor at play here. There’s no way Peterson’s IQ is below 120, yet he seems not to get it. His mentality is understandable for a clinical psychologist: he wants to reduce suffering, and for many people nowadays that implies finding ‘meaning’ in life (commonly linked to personal responsibilites, as he often argues). Of course, the idea that life is intrinsically meaningful is intellectually indefensible. But either he is fooled by the kind of psychology I’ve just mentioned or he knowingly disseminates false claims in the hope of helping people anyway.
@@sebastianparamera2424 Why is the idea that life is intrinsically meaningful intellectually indefensible? Do you think human beings possessing intrinsic value is also indefensible?
1:03 This woman doesn't seem to know what depression and nihilism do to people. I spent years telling myself that everything was pointless and meaningless. Rather than feel freed by it, I was crushed beneath the emptiness of it all. I wouldn't shower or shave. I would eat barely enough to keep hunger pains from becoming too noticeable. I decided my job added more misery than necessary to my already pointless life, so I quit. Subsisted on donating plasma and charity from my family, worrying them to no end about me. My childhood dream of being a writer became a painful lie I couldn't bear thinking about. Suicidal thoughts were common, the only thing pulling the gun away from my head was fear of the unknown. From my perspective at the time, death could only bring nonexistence or torment, neither of which were better than laying in bed or playing video games all day. It wasn't until I rejected nihilism and turned to romanticism that my life started to really improve. Every day, I choose to see the meaning in living.
Don't you have any passions? I believe that life has the meaning you decide to give it. Since there's a few things I love doing I try to spend my time participating in these activities as they give me joy. I don't believe in the after life so I have a sense of urgency to do the things I love.
Life is meaninglessness It's up to you go make it meaningful to you as the observer your actions and what you can do can effect outcome of other thinking beings We effect each other which makes life worth meaning to us alone
He's spot on! It cannot be a "tragedy" if it is meaningless. And as a person who has struggled with severe depression, I know what it means to truly believe something is meaningless, and believe me when you truly believe life meaningless, getting up to go to the bathroom is hard. She absolutely believes life is meaningful!
i think her point was...Life is meaningless and it's up to her to give meaning in it... it's like an empty bottle you gradually fill up through the years of living
@@primativemath3265 That's a whole lot of words just to explain how you don't believe morality is real. Which is moral relativism; E.G.; Moral Relativism is, definitionally, the idea that Morality is a construct of humanity. It is not "I choose what is right", it is the idea that morality is constructed by human beings. So you are a moral relativist. You are a Nihilist because you don't believe in meaning, you believe meaning is a construct. That's nihilism; the emptiness of life/death/existence. And I reject both.
@@ankushdeep8233 Jordan means that we are not our mind - we are experiencing our mind. He also means, I belive, that research has shown that our bodies have their own intelligence e.g. you don't need to be conscious of digestion for example. So Jordan is saying, get out of thinking your life as this women was doing and actually LIVE your life. That's the meaning of life - LIFE itself.
@@maxchadwick7714 Yep. It demands that we have meaning and a meaningful maker. Otherwise, why bother living lol. It’s obvious that there is meaning in order to say the opposite, which is why it is utter foolishness to say there is no meaning. Yes, there are minute things and big things we do not fully understand. That demands meaning also. Jordan is awesome and brilliant.
Whoever is right, I do appreciate that the discussion remains civil. Especially on her part since Jordan in proposing a counter argument to her thesis.
Weird life philosophy. It's almost like she thinks her critical mind is in conflict with her person and she's just along for the ride because she can't transplant outta there. Everything she does has meaning (career, students, family) and is constructed by her, but thinks she isn't in control of it. She could just sit in her favourite chair and wait to die. But she doesn't. Because she has meaning, in spite of herself.
Also it denies that there is any fundamental moral or ethical character to anything. I've read from former heroin addicts that it's the best feeling you can possibly imagine. According to her view, there is fundamentally nothing or wrong or inferior with just quitting our jobs and doing heroin every day until we take just enough to gently drift away and die. To say this isn't true from a fundamentally atheistic materialist perspective is ultimately hypocrisy.
@@Pheer777 That's a oversimplification of nihilism. It's the same BS as to say that for a christian ultimately this life on Earth is just to suffer and sacrifice himself everyday and hope for early death to be with the "daddy" ASAP. It is something fundamentally wrong with quitting your job and doing heroin. You just got this one life, after that it's over, all your experiences, sensations, everything ceases to exist. Why would you want this one shot for "life" to be miserable and short, only because there is no transcendent "big picture" or what? When you cook your meal, why do you bother to make it appetizing? In a couple of hours you sh...t it out and it's over. There is no transcendent ultimate meaning of that meal and yet people go out of their way to make their meals delicious, event christians...
@@ivanvnucko3056 You misunderstand my point. According to heroin users, it's literally the best feeling you can physically experience. You can't tell me that living a relatively short life of immense pleasure is "worse" than a longer one. It's worse if the variable you're aiming to optimize for is "length of life" but there is no objective reason why that is the "correct" variable to maximize, or why a longer life is inherently preferable to a short one lived with immense pleasure. If a heroin user legitimately wants to do it, you can't point to some objective reason for why he is wrong aside from your own subjective opinions and intuitions, which may differ from others'.
@@Pheer777 I agree suprisingly :) but what is then your point? To be clear I agree with Susan, life is meaningless in objective manner, meaning there is no "fundamental moral anything". That is somehow "bad", or illogical or what is the objection to this worldview?
@@Pheer777 "If a heroin user legitimately wants to do it, you can't point to some objective reason for why he is wrong aside from your own subjective opinions and intuitions, which may differ from others" - And you can point to some objective reason? Is there anywhere in the commandments "Thou shall not abuse heroin..."? If there really is a "objective moral standard" what are it's contents? I mean really some specific contents of this standard (beside the obligatory "do not torture babies for fun"). And can we investigate these contents somehow? If yes, why are there wild disagreements about them? What happens when completely new acts and behaviors emerge (revenge porn, online bulling, stem cell research etc.) which were not present in the past, is the moral standard updating itself? And if we cannot objectively investigate it (it's only "written in our hearts" or something) what is then the practical difference to moral relativism, where everybody creates his own moral standard? If most people in the world do not accept the authority of the christian "lawgiver" and the objective existence of your moral standard as binding for everyone, how does its existence help you to settle the disagreements?
As a person who suffer from depression, anxiety and autoimmune problems.. I can tell you that finding meaning in everything I do is something very important for my life that’s has kept me going. If I was to think like that lady here says, I would have be a goner a long time ago. It’s in the face of adversity and suffering that we need to have the courage and faith to keep living. Because even in the darkest moments in life, being able to see the light up ahead is so meaningful. There are good moments even in the midst of suffering. And like someone said “we live by faith not by sight”…that is so true, because even our minds and feelings can play tricks on you.
Exactly ever since i came to Christ my life feels more fufilling a purposeful. I too had also suffered with depression anxiety and was gonna kill myself because I had a mentality like this. "This is pointless, life is nothing anyways" But Christ came to me and saved me of all that and now I truly have purpose in all i do
I can understand that I also have major depression, anxiety and insomnia and I use to eat raw garlic multiple times a day to get my blood circulating cuz depression etc causes you to lose blood circulation and make you cold and would use garlic to get my blood circulating but after a few months I was getting more fatigue and being very slow minded about things and got a blood test showing I was on the very edge of autoimmune syndrome and I went to get a bottle of fish/flaxseed oil supplements and took a dozen a day and in a week I was feeling better and by the 2nd week I was lot better and the Dr did another test showing I was back to normal and asked me how I did so fast I told him I took a lot of fish/flaxseed oil supplements daily for 2 weeks and he told me I was crazy to do that but understood that it was as unhealthy
@@tylersoto7465 wow that’s good that you where able to feel better. I know diet has a lot to do with it. I been trying to eat cleaner. I do notice every time I do slip of the wagon I start feeling lower energy and lethargic. I hope one day we can over come this problem completely.
@@quilodinerro amen I’m happy you found Christ. And same thing I find God gives meaning to all this reality. Especially Christ. All my best wishes to you. Keep fighting the good fight of faith. And I know God can heal our hearts and body form this horrible sickness. We have to keep believing. God bless.
It would be great if he had a _discussion_ with someone. Peterson is very defensive in a lot of his interviews. He needs an unmoderated conversation, and someone that will put him at ease. Dawkins would be a good choice, because of his temperament, but I think you need someone who also has a more philosophical background as well. Someone like Pinker would be ideal maybe.
@@sherlockinsomniac At least Dawkins's strings of big words have meanings. As a rule, after Peterson greets a fellow debater at the start of a debate, almost everything else he says is utterly cognitively meaningless.
@@ryanlee5887 Dawkins would demolish Jordan P and it would be sad to watch because Jordan P would plough on earnestly and stubbornly with his usual, utterly meaningless nonsense about Jung and Nietzsche and archetypes.
“The atheist types act out a religious structure and criticize it.” -JP So true. Humans can’t get away from acting out meaning because it’s wired in us.
@@briannyob7799hey friend. In the whole debate you get the essence of Peterson’s ideas:)…It seems a religious structure is simply a series of values and morals that all humans cannot get away from acting out on a daily basis.
@@jarrettjb I think you need to watch a bit more JP's videos. The man is all over the place. Can never seem to get him to commit to any idea about religion. One minute he tries to say there is a god and he believes. The next pulls this BS, about a religious structure. Yes, society has values and morals.
@@briannyob7799having read his book I’ve found him to be fairly consistent although I’m sure he’s got some flaws. It seems every man has religion. In other words a series of laws and rules, shoulds and should nots written on their conscience. Humans can’t get away from their belief systems. When I was an atheist I had a structure of ultimate reality that I walked according to.
She says “nothing matters, everything is empty and meaningless”, then how can she recognize that bad things happen to her and there are tragedies around the world? Mustn’t she assign meaning to herself and and the world around her to recognize that bad things are happening? Of course it all had meaning. She only says these things to cope with the bad things that happen to her and to cope with the tragedies in the world.
@@sunshinegirl1967 If God exists, then life is meaningless, christian faith is life denying, you`re wasting this life that you have for a god that doesn`t even want you! If God exists he is the cruelest most evil thing in existence.
You did not argued at any point that something is meaningful. You argued that things just happened. Witch is kinda what she said. You see good or bad is a concept of people. Nothing in this universe has ethical values. Or any proven reason. Things just happen. If you don’t believe that we are meaningless why do you think we believed that the earth is the Center of the universe and the sun is rotating around us? Because we want to believe that we are important, but that does not mean we are. and that my friend is a proof in itself that we tent to lie to ourselves and that we’re not sincere when we think that the reality is that we are important. We just wanted to be. but the truth is more sad. The universe is not made for us, neither against us. We don’t have a purpose in it. Or at least we don’t have an argument that we have one. We just exist.
I'm an atheist but like so many in high-school and even in early 20s I lived having a nihilistic views and it absolutely ruined me. It wasn't until I started to create values and personal responsibility and tell myself free will exists that my life started to improve and I felt better. I don't care if it's not true from a great philosophical argument or what not. It works it feels human. I'll lie to myself if it means I don't go back to being a nihilist. I had severe depression isolation and no reason to do anything. I actually am way more tolerant towards religious ppl because I wouldn't want anyone to completely live out the idea of nothing matters, it's all meaningless.
Thanks for sharing! It was the same kind of thinking for me that brought me towards Christianity. God is so loving and gives us meaning that I decided to give my life to Jesus!
He also said that the truth of Nature does not conflict with the Truth of Scripture. If ever there appears to be a conflict, then it is the interpretation of one, the other or both that is in error.
@@brucedownunda7054 LOL. Read Thomas S. Kuhn's, *_The Structure of Scientific Revolutions._* Classic work which shows plenty of examples of scientists misinterpreting nature and distorting science with their imperfect worldviews. Look up Isaac Newton and phlogiston. It took the likes of Lavoisier to fix Newton's misunderstanding on "fire."
@@juliovillagran4105 Tye afterlife is more real than my written response to your remark. There is tons upon tons of proof that there is God and that there is an afterlife. Trouble is most of this world today cannot see it as they are blinded by materialism, greed and false power that this empty world offers.
But how do you get to that conclusion? From what Standpoint are you reffering? Just because you discuss something it doesnt inherently mean that it has a meaning. Maybe for you it has a meaning because you think that it has a meaning. But you cant make that argument for everybody because everybody has different understandings about the meaning of life. You cant propose something just because you think about it. Because if you argue like that you can insert every other word into that equasion because it has to be a universally applying theory. It isnt really an argument that you are making there. If you would have said that "God exists and he made me so i have a meaning now" thats perfectly alright. Because as an argument you have your religion or god. And that subject gives you the meaning. So its koherent. Whereas a discussion cant give you a meaning because a discussion is just a word that we have brought up. Its a made up word. We can discuss and think about it because of biological evolution and the anatomy. We can speak because of several factors like our mouth for example or tongue. The other think is our intelligence. The constant questioning about the meaning of life has been a topic for thousands of years. Thats where all the cults and religions from past civilisations came from. They were trying to explain all the things going on around them by inserting a "god" into that equasion. Something that is out of your control. You can only think about something that you have experienced yourself. Just like you can only dream about something that you have done before, have watched before or experienced before. You cant dream about America for example if the country was given a different name. Same applies to a "dicussion" its firstly a word. And the meaning of that word is having a conversation about a certain topic and your opinion based upon your past experienced and knowledge. So how do you conclude from a discussion that life has meaning. You combine a physicall and biological factor and intelligence and experience and you conclude and come up with a completely different thing. It doesnt make sense to me.
After 26years of living in Godless foolishness, I thank God 8 years ago for opening my eyes to the truth! The arguments atheists come up with are embarrassing to me as a reminder of how I used to be.
Well and using a 2000 y o book as proof of your believe is not embarassing?! Just accept that your believe is believe, not truth nothing more is said by atheists
@@lisamorre7946 why would it be embarrassing? you have faith about that I have faith about this to me it is truth now stfu🗿 honestly I'm proud I can use a 2,000 yr old book as proof what can you use 🗿 Jesus lived and resurrected no body in his tomb
Let me state one point here which is true for all of us. We all wish we had a family member not even to mention a father like Mr. Peterson to just talk about almost anything.
Oof I'm not sure if I'd want JP as a family member because I don't talk openly with my family so.... But for sure I'd like to have a chance to talk with him.
Fuuuckkk no. Can you imagine having that foo as a family member, just hyper analyzing everything you say or do, never smiles, never cracks jokes, never just messes around, everything is a fucking intellectual debate. Fuck that! Homie doesn’t know how to let go and enjoy life, everything is a fucking monstrous intellectual conversation with him. Everything has to go through the filter of reason. No wonder he’s so fucking depressed.
@@aksy1430555 what I think he is saying is (and I must emphasis that this is just my personal interpretation) is that most atheists take there atheism as a sign of enlightenment above theists. Rationalizing it as 'I understand the world better than most, so I have a greater understanding of the world' which is basically just what most fanatical theists say. And the other interpretation I can think of is that most atheists "barrow" their moral structures and foundations from religions, mainly because of the fact that atheism inherently has no moral foundation, because no matter how good of an argument you make, the inescapable truth of the matter is that according to an atheistic stand point; life is meaningless and there is no point to our existence. for example, most feminists are of the understandable and correct opinion that rape is a bad and wrong thing. but most feminists are probably also atheists, But the idea (in the west at least) that rape is wrong originates from Judeo-Christianity, and the idea that people should keep themselves for marriage Any way its like 2am and I am in no way an expert at debate, that's just my opinion and you internet people can feel free to pick my entire world view apart peace by peace, I don't care good night.
@@joejoe0213 Oh I see, so this is in response to radical athiests. This is weird tho cuz I thought atheism was about not believing in the idea of there being a higher power that is inherently responsible for everything. This idea of life being meaningless seems pretty absurd to me. Just because there isn't a God that does not make everything meaningless. There is absolutely meaning in being curious about the universe and trying to make sense of it all and understanding how everything around us works. This "meaningless" ideology is absurd if you ask me. Also, saying life is meaningless if there is no God is just admitting that God needs to be real for everything to make sense which contradicts this radical atheism and the whole argument just falls apart.
Atheism is not a religious structure. Atheism is nothing more, and nothing less than non belief in a creator of the universe. Atheists only universal trait is that they demand evidence.
@@joejoe0213 The last place I would ever go for moral guidance is scripture. Morality is a human construct. Is is based on the premise of harm. Anybody with an intellect can understand that rape is a horrible thing and thus immoral. Most people easily understand the concept of "this is bad because I wouldn't want it done to me." There is no need to source a higher power to explain this.
I may be one of the only people here who sincerely loves and respects the work of both of these thinkers. For those not familiar with Dr. Blackmore, her work on culture and memes is absolute vital to understanding civilization. Jordan Peterson has been a keystone figure to my understanding of the world as well. I’d have paid good money to have been in that room for that discussion.
Memes are memes anyone attaching some profound societal thing to it is just a fool, if your dumb enough to assign meaning to memes but not your life then sorry you don't deserve to debate an intellectual like Jordan his time is more valuable than someone saying life is meaningless but attaching meaning to toilets and memes, it is blatant absurdity of how far our culture has fallen that people attach meaning to a meme.
@@dongalore9028 I have to assume you think we're referring to "meme" in the colloquial sense-that's the only way I can make sense of a comment like this. "Memes" in the context of this discussion isn't describing a funny image that gets passed around on the internet." The study of memetics is a serious branch of psychology and anthropology, in which a meme is described as an individual of unit of culture that is passed from person to person. The word "meme" was coined by Richard Dawkins to work in tandem with the the idea "gene." It's describing the Darwinian aspect of culture and society.
Jordan Peterson isn`t a thinker, he is a great psychologist, his philosophical understanding is so lack luster, and he misrepresent philosophers consistently to support his own political or christian morale views.
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." The paradox - if you will - is that everything in this world is ultimately meaningless, in a carnal sense (all is vanity), but spiritually it is full of meaning (fear God and keep his commandments).
I was almost suckered into becoming a "new atheist" when I first emigrated to North America as an international student. I figured i wanted to be accepted by the culture and I also wanted to come off as sophisticated. Until I actually met and interacted with several of them and found them to be very narcissistic, lacking any sort of foundation for their reasoning, too quick to deny the positives of Judeo-Christian traditions that built the western world and also too accepting of divisive identity politics. I immediately left and am glad to still be a practicing Catholic today.
@@disciplinedgrindset623 Without knowing him, yet you could tell that he's lying from him using his keyboard to tell his experience?? No wonder you're the way you are 🤣😂 You're not very smart!
The "big conversation," where one person talks constantly, the interviewer interrupts, & the smartest person in the room can't finish a sentence thanks to the other two.
Amen, John. And the everlasting life will not be "of the body," either, but of the spirit which is non-physical (no space, no time, no energy, no mass, for these are the dark reflection of God). As a Homo sapiens animal, we rely on the continuity of conscious of the brain. As spirit, we have untouchable consciousness outside of the physical -- within the firm foundation for both halves of physical reality.
@@RodMartinJr I can roll with that. And even though the spirit is eternal, it still needs a "body" in which it is able to experience the rest of creation. Hense, we will get new bodies after the resurrection. Ones that can experience the Creator in His fullness. For now, we live by faith.
@@johnscaduto9332 Thanks! This is a popular myth, because people tend to be attached to physical existence. Your use of "faith" is also not how I would use it; "faith" does not mean "belief." I still have a long way to go, but I have experienced seeing this physical universe without physical eyes. I've experienced dozens of miracles. And I have remembered thousands of years. When you fully live as spirit, instead of the separate, selfish ego, you no longer need a body for continuity of consciousness. In heaven, there is no space, time, energy or mass, and thus no bodies. As Christ said, in heaven there will be no taking of wives. God created man twice -- first in His own image, and then from the dust of the ground. And I'm sure you'll agree with me that God's image is *_not_* one of dust.
@@MrVara411 LOL well if you're conditioned by either constitutionally degrading corporate owned party, you're easily impressed and ignorant my friend. The mere fact these two do not denounce a debate about whether life is meaningful or meaningless makes their conversation a useless one. It's like asking them to prove or disprove whether God is real. It's an unanswerable question for our limited species.
"those meanings are constructed by myself" even if that's accurate, you have still accepted a meaning to everything, even if you constructed it, it's still there, so its not meaningless
Her point is that those meaning are not an objective fact, but rather a careful (or not) manifestation of her neurobiology or consciousness (whatever that is).
@@jackadams3878 The conversation revolves around the existence of a higher power which applies that "meaning" to us all. If meaning is self constructed and has a different definition for each individual, how does that prove that it was brought on by higher power?
If that is true, that life holds no "meaning", then it logically follows that her statement is also packed full of meaninglessness and is nonsensical. So why should we try to have a meaningful conversation about how meaningless life is?
Because she doesn't even know the definition of meaning. She is high on materialism, surfing the coolness of discarding such abstract notions, no materialist has ever tried to fathom, from the worldview, like it's nothing, not realizing, that it contradicts everything about her as a person. It's cool to say such loud theses, while supporting it with scientific thoughts, almost noone can disprove, but JP has put the "almost" in the "almost noone can disprove", and that's awesome in many ways.
Which is true, on an objective basis. There's a difference between the meaning that JP is talking about (an objective meaning of life) and the meaning that Susan is talking about (subjective meaning).
- "I'm bored" - * goes to indentured servitude and immense pressure of 4 years in studying * I'd say that's borderline insane. Unless there's enough meaning to forsake salary, or self-employed, way of life for the demands of the next 4+ years.
@@cristhiancamarena9534 a slip? She's making a case for a principle that connected humanity together since the beginning, If you're there to debate religious principle, "slip" is not an option. You don't accidentally slip into a religion, do you ?
The worst part of her argument is what Jordan frequently argues, which is that her outlook is horrible once great suffering and tribulation enters into your life. If you don't believe there is a deep meaning to your life, the suffering is very likely to absolutely break you.
I'm not trying to pick on the guy but... Great suffering entered his lie and it absolutely destroyed him. I'm not sure his outlook is anymore protective.
@@Strawbclock0 believing in higher meaning doesn’t make you immune to being broken, I don’t believe that’s what this guy is trying to say. It’s moreso that believing in higher meaning can offer resilience
No that’s not true, Jordan Peterson and others who think like this are too obsessed hypotheticals, moving on and carrying on to survive is life personified
@@pejv7903 saying that life is meaningless like saying there is no god is a faith claim which means you dont believe that there is a purpose in this world or life, saying life is meaningless is the most extreme way to say that there is no point in existing, but even still existing means that you fundamentally contradicted that assertion, because if life is meaningless and god doesnt exist, what is the point on living? why doesnt she kill herself? because she doesnt want to die? but she already stated that life is meaningless, she shouldnt feel fear of death or have any emotions for that matter, that is why that mentality is inhuman, there is no person in the world who can wholeheartedly live thinking nothing matters, because just by living you are contradicting yourself.
@@streptococo4735 that's so dumb to think man. "Just by living you contradict yourself saying life is meaningless". So what do you expect of such a person, to cease existing? Kill themselves because life has no meaning, no clear goal set? I don't agree with that kind of stupid reasoning. I think we can think life is meaningless, yet still get on with it. Actually if anything, the only real meaning to life is just to simply be alive, and that's it. But can that count as a real meaning? Is not 'not existing' enough to give life a meaning? Because that's essentially what it's like without life, you don't exist. It's the same after, you don't exist. It's darkness and nothingness, you're born, got however much time you have on this planet, with many variables like the lifestyle you lead, accidents, murder, diseases and so on and then after you die that's it. Nothing again.
@@thehazardheath8558 Because what else is there to say? Life has absolutely no meaning, bar for the simplicity of just being alive. It's true that as humans we do our best to give it meaning so it makes sense, so we have an actual reason to push through. It's the same with religion, people use it to justify all this, life, existence. To make a little sense out of it. There's no clearl goal in life, no pre-determined path. It's not like a movie with a set storyline and already determined events, or like a book, a video game. Other than not "not existing", we don't have anything. That's why humans make shit up to feel better about it.
Well, when you say the truth itself is meaningless, yeah, it's going to be pretty hard to convince others that your viewpoint on the truth is worth listening to.
Thinking that you’re worthy of meaning is such a self centred perspective to have. It is religion which has indoctrinated us to believe we are at the centre of the universe. We have been on this earth for such a minuscule amount of time in relation to our ancient ancestors.. to pretend we have all the answers and religion somehow has a monopoly over meaning is ridiculous. To be here, alive , in this very moment in time..is awe inspiring as it is. The universe doesn’t owe as anything, especially not meaning. WE create our own meaning.. through love, endeavours, hardships, relationships, passion, exploration of knowledge… she obviously doesn’t believe everything is meaningless (that’s a strawman). She believes meaning isn’t something we inherit just because we are human.
@@markanthony3275 No, it's because JP just says just one thing over and over - "you're a christian only you don't know it", he is the most obnoxious debater I ever saw in a high profile debate.
@@ivanvnucko3056 There could be another reason you don't like him. Have you considered that ? He could be right in what he says. He doesn't put it in exactly the same words as another well known and brilliant psychologist/psychiatrist , Dr Jeffrey Satinover, who says that "all seek the eternal object ( God)but know it not" and that "when a person does not attach meaning to it's proper eternal object but attaches it to some instinctive form of gratification, the pursuit becomes compulsive, even addictive and ultimately monstrous. In drugs the drug addict, in alcohol , the alcoholic, in sex, the philanderer, in winning, the gambler and in food the compulsive eater...all seek the one God and know it not; all thus become idolators". Dr. Petersen says people are Christians they just don't know it. Dr Satinover merely says that everyone seeks the meaning and purpose that only can come from God, but when they try and find that some where else, the result is always destructive. The Bible says that everyone starts their life with an evil human nature and is naturally separated from God, and can't know God...unless they make a choice to accept the person and work of Jesus Christ ( accept that you are a born sinner, and that Jesus Christ died to take the judgement God had for you, upon himself ) which then restores their relationship with God.
@@markanthony3275 What he says is so vague and abstract that it almost doesn't matter if he is right in some sense. Did you see Sam Harris's Cookbook analogy to JP's "theories"? More importantly this is just a "dick way" to argumentation. "You inside agree with me, you just don't know it yet...". It's just frustrating. Try to empathize here - imagine you debating with some scientologist, when he in the end always says: "You don't believe me now, but your Thetan inside is seeking Xenu and wants to reunite with him..." or some such BS.
Nah, they’re having a decent conversation. She does answer some of his questions. It’s actually pretty nice to see discourse like this compared to the absolute bullshit that is on the news.
I like them both. Her book bout mémés is good. And I bought his book, seems to be helpful, too. It is nice to listen to smart people having an respectful exchange of thoughts
Exactly, I like both of their arguments. This is the most calm debate between two different views on life. It just put a smile on my face that we do have the meanings to actually be at peace with different strong beliefs and someone to actually challenge that and exchanging thoughts without being mean and toxic.
@MrRex Gamer She claims life is meaningless and then talks about how the meaning of life is to fulfill your biological needs. People who actually figure out life is meaningless commit suicide. Why talk to people, why go to work, why eat, why drink, why breath. Why live. So she states things she does not actually believe and are not true. If the statement was "what is the meaning of life beyond fulfilling your biological means", then yes. At that level of discussion, such a generalization and oversimplification renders your argument wrong and untrue. And can cause suffering in people who listen to her. Or the claim "If you meditate, good behavior follows." It is some undefined wishful thinking. Compare that to JP. "Are you a religious person?" "Define religious person."
@@kofola9145 I think you should read her book as well as The Selfish Gene by Dawkins and many other books. The argument of a senseless or meaningless or purposelessness is still there and won't disappear just because we don't like it. Even the foundations of math can collapse if you question the basic axioms as Gödel did.
@My Poppy let’s not be careless here. It’s not drivel by any means, it’s quite a powerful argument she’s making, or at least which she’s leaning on. The burden of proof lies on Jordan here, even if there’s reason to believe he’s right.
@@mysigt_ Her only issue is that she teaches people her very depressing philosophy. I believe what she says, but if someone can convince themselves that their is meaning in life why would you want to convince them otherwise? I would never wish the same existential dread I feel everyday on anyone else.
@@jordanp8268 Reality is depressing. Implying that we should be happy and find purpose are children stories. Meaning does not exist in nature anywhere. Inventing it is religion.
@@Tore_Lund Privileged cynicism. Some people need meaning to get them through a life far harder then yours. It's easy to be cynical when you've been on easy mode all your life. The boredom alone would've made me bitter.
As a former nihilist life has meaning. People only say that it is meaningless because they don't have anything that is meaningful to them. A qoute that further explains what I'm trying to say goes like this, "Maybe, just maybe there is no meaning to life but if you linger long enough you may find something of value". For me when i found that something in life that I valued I no longer was a nihilist. What I valued had meaning and it had meaning to me.
I used to be pretty nihilistic, listening to her now it just strikes me how sad it sounds. It feels like there's something there as well that if life is meaningless you neither have to believe it nor make a case for it.
Nihilism is basically saying "killing yourself is fine because you don't matter and all the people that will suffer and grieve your death don't matter either". Only thing keeping them alive is probably sexual activity.
I was feeling annoyed listening to this woman but was then taken back by Peterson's calmness and generosity in engaging in this conversation with her. He is a master of honest communication. I definitely need more work in this area.
@@maartenjanez1489 he's still in the first step The step when he just love whats exactly support his view I disagree with this woman but everything is good with her This is just nice conversation I saw theres 2 type of JP's fans 1. The people who actually love discussion without disrespect the others 2. The people who tired with the "leftists or anything opposite of jp's or conservative way of thinking" so they use JP as a weapon against them
@@maartenjanez1489 I wonder about that too. I disagree with the Atheist woman. But why would someone be annoyed by listening someone's honest straight forward opinion?
If everybody was thinking like her this world would be in a total anarchy... I swear some normal people have way more common sens than some 'scientist'
I saw nihillistic people who are asses and nihillistic people who are decent folks,I saw christian people who are asses and saw good among them as well,I saw atheists way better than a muslim and saw an atheist who is a wicked person and vice versa. I guess at the end of the day,labels do not matter,what comes as good always stays as good and what comes as bad always stays bad. They are not against one another,that is why I never judge people by their philosophy of their life or their religion or culture,only by the way they act and behave,sometimes religion can make us more humaine sometimes not! We can not get a solid conclusion from anything. Deep down some try to be good in their life even they could not convince themselves to see life meaningful. I feel God is something really beyond all philosophies or even mainstream religions. Trust me,if it were a heaven,he would not go harsh on for example an atheist scientist who did all he good in order to progress like Stephen Hawkins,you can see good and bad clearly in people as soon as you start knowing them,and these debates,they all are a part of our progressikm
Someone has posted this below: "The "big conversation," where one person talks constantly, the interviewer interrupts, & the smartest person in the room can't finish a sentence thanks to the other two." Sums up my feelings perfectly. Blackmore reminds me of Katie Hopkins.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 The smart person in this video is the one who in real time calmly and rationally demonstrates the inherent contradictions and logical lapses of the other. He manages to do this even while being interrupted by the increasingly more agitated "academic" whose points are shown to be (ironically) meaningless and incoherent. As for the assertion that Peterson is a "fascist", this can be repeatedly shown to be false. At least, in the normal sense that people interpret "fascist". I have heard Peterson say, "I don't like Nazis". "Hitler was more evil than what you think". Look at the Queen's University Jordan B Peterson lecture, and see how the protesters tried to block the audience from entering, pounded on the windows the entire talk, and talked about blocking the exits and set the auditorium on fire. Now, you tell me: who was acting like facists?
There is a difference between life being meaningless and giving your own life meaning. That is what essentially she is saying. Life is what you make it and what you make it ends when you are gone.
@@whitekaren7742 That is not the same thing. One can make one's life meaningful irrespective of (as Shakespeare said) " the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."
@@jackwachtel-scott8000 LIFE IS NOT MEANINGFUL WITHOUT A HIGHER POWER (GOD) OTHERWISE PEOPLE WHO DIDNT BELIEVE IN ONE WOULD JUST KILL THEMSELF! NO BODY, NO MEMORY, NO PAIN, NO GUILT !! BUT WE KNOW THATS NOT WHAT HAPPENS!
If there is no meaning how can there be purpose? If there is no purpose why does she write books and teach. To do these things you need to be motivated by something and the root of that motive is where your treasure is.
Rationally there's no meaning, biologically we have desires and insticts that drive us out to act the way we do in our everyday life, ultimately to avoid suffering, life is meaningless, but suffering sucks, which one would you choose? Not eat and starve or get up from the bed and get food
@@cristhiancamarena9534 sorry, can’t ignore reality. Many unbelievers like to play pretend that their is no meaning but we know that is false. Humans need meaning to survive. It is in our DNA. Without it we know what happens. They commit suicide .
@@onestepaway3232 and what's meaning? You are misunderstanding the point of our argument, its not whether people would be better or not with a porpuse, but whether that porpuse is empirical and set on stone as an objective truth, which isn't, you set your own meaning and that makes it subjective, and objectively, they dont exist outside of your own reality.
@@cristhiancamarena9534 lol, so you admit then that non material meaning exist? I don’t care how you want to classify it. Meaning has nothing to do with biology all I’m saying.
Why find meaning tho if it's all meaningless? Why does meaninglessness make you so uncomfortable as a human? If it IS all ultimately meaningless, then you're never gonna find actual meaning to fulfill you no matter how much you delude yourself into thinking it's meaningful. You can't make something that doesn't exist. You can only make a simulation of it or a fantasy. It's all a cope.
Suneesh Susakaran ....Body is like a machine,but we do have autonomy as far as our bodies are concerned!!!....The Fact that you may be feeling sleepy at 3 AM but still struggling to stay awake to complete a research article shows you are not purely at the whims of bodily urges!!!....One can conjecture that it is another bodily tendency to prioritize delayed gratification over instant one,and it's just the body orchestrating things for its future survival or development!!!....But that's debatable as sometimes we do fight our bodily urges to take actions that don't benefit us in any way,say wake up at 5AM to feed a street dog !!!.....
@@constipatedbowels3473 The thought that you need to fight this gratification is not chosen by you. Science has proven that even for a simple task of raising your hand, the brain has already decided it before you are concious of it.
@@ssudhak2 Yes,I am well aware of the illusion of Free will!!!........Every thought that you have and the reaction you are going to have is already getting orchestrated by your body!!!........But on a utilitarian level,how does this knowledge help you???.....Here is what you are either misunderstanding or rationalizing about the notion of free will vs conscious decision making!!!.... We do have the capacity of employing conscious decision making,regardless of the fact that the entire premise of decision making is preordained by the brain!!!......Example,If I am experiencing a sexual urge,I have the option of indulging in it or not indulging in it!!!.... This temptation or primal urge arises from The ID,and the available choices as "to do or not to do" are constructed by my SuperEgo depending on what social,cultural,religious,scientific content it has been exposed to!!!...Finally the Ego has the agency to make that choice !!!......
@@constipatedbowels3473 Yes but is there a ego or a passenger inside my body who can make these choice. Spirituality and science says there is no "I". Brain creates an illusion of Selfhood. Its a hard fact to digest. We are simply at the mercy of our neurons over which we dont have any control. Only mystery is conciousness and how it emerges but conciousness cannot act. It can only be a witness.
@@ssudhak2 The knowledge of No-self doesn't bring any radical changes in preexisting "self",as It is the "self" that still continues to extrapolate utility from the information of NOSELF,for the things it desires(PEACE,CLARITY,BLISS or whatever else).... For example,Your "self" is trying to assert the facts of NOSELF and FREEWILL to win this argument by getting your point across!!!.... So even we are arguing about SELF vs NOSELF,we are using our "selves" to communicate the idea!!!...when you say it is a hard fact to digest, it's your "Self" which is trying to digest the facts of its illusory construct!!!!.... Self being a nuero-anatomically constructed illusion is just a cold scientific fact ,but it is not a value system to live Life by and certainly not a format for conscious decision making that we face in day to day Life.....!!!...
I love educated people who have convinced themselves of something by living in an echo chamber. I don't think anyone has ever questioned her about this topic.
Sounds like just about every public intellectual we have at the moment. Thomas Sowell made a similar remark, about individuals like Noam Chomsky. Being an intellectual in one field doesn't mean you are in all others, and yet so many people assume this and lend an ear to people like Chomsky on say, his political views - which are absolute trash. Outside of linguistics, the man is out of his depth but because he is an intellectual and is fawned over by those who share his echochamber...well.
Funny. JP's followers live in the original echo chamber. The echoing halls of thinly disguised conservatism, where we attempt to rarely look critically at history, and are incapable of favorably interpreting change as a good thing, while shellacking the whole thing with skillful rhetoric and a charming orator. Then 1/2 of us are unable to admit or recognise that we are right wing.
@@noah5291 The followers look at history. But they don't read the Leftist 20 book list--re-reading American interventionism and Chomsky, et al., over and over and over and over again. Solidifying into memory the fine details of our past sins as a type of self-flagellation and self-reinforcing their identity obsession and hatred of competition-based capitalism.
@@ejw1234 Not looking at and understanding the ugly parts of history because it makes you feel bad is just being a coward basically. The reason it hurts their feelings is because they have been indoctrinated since birth. 95% of them haven't read any critical perspective. Willingly walk into suffering if it's guaranteed to make you better, carry the heaviest weight that you can. It's not self flagellation to accept challenge to become better.
Although i dont agree with her, I do respect her patience with how she handles this discussion. Much better than most women Jordan Peterson debates with.
She s very intelligent. The point is that,beyond words, s still in the dual point of view like all the people of the world. Peterson is beyond that. Doesnt believe. He knows. He s like a guru. He has the higher view ,his perspective is different from the human view. Jordan is not human. or , is the human . Once you hold the truth u are compassionate towards everybody else cause they re still missing , they still deaf in some way. U re correcting everyone. U no longer belong to others. U sacrifice yourself, for see everything and help in a exclusive way
@@Jeff.Paborada look in the mirror bro, Jesus Christ Is King & will come back. And you will stand before him when you die, now you have no excuse.. been had no excuse, you see life and the things created. I’m praying for you man, God be w you. 🤍
@Just Chillin' this is a very big question, it's not easy to say God exists or not, you need a lot of work, a really hard working. For me I believe in God the creator of the universe, It began for me more clear than ABCs
Great debate. Being able to have such debate shows that we are an intelligent creature that lives in a complex society built from 200k yrs of human history. We can all live a meaningful life in unity peace and harmony.
She wouldn't be sitting here to have a conversation if life is meaningless. Life is only meaningless when you're dead, it is meaningful when you give it meaning by living the hell out of it, but life is purposeless at all ends.
"it is meaningful when you give it meaning by living the hell out of it" is an objective truth claim. If it's not, and just your opinion, then it has no relevance to anyone.
Her meaning is the self flattery that "she knows lots", otherwise she wouldn't spend her time trying to teach others and discuss/debate with JP. She's a big bag of wind.
How on earth could it ever be a "very positive way of living" to accept total meaninglessness....? Living with that idea is living on the edge of self destruction and suicide! Even I as a christian feel meaningless at many times, but if I wasn't a christian, I surely would have believed in that meaningless feeling and gone through with it. Hope is the only thing that gives me comfort in this broken world...but to accept meaninglessness would be to give up on the idea of true love and God and then where could I ever find any hope whatsoever?
@@xMCxVSxARBITERx Without God you are nothing? I bet my house that none of you have ever even heard "God" speak. You don't know what he looks like, sounds like, smells like and he has never said a thing to any of you
@@frankvandermerwe1487 What you say is true, I have never heard from Him or seen Him, yet He remains to be the source of life so without Him none of what we see or know would exist. Does that make sense? One day, though, we shall all see Him! But for now, as Paul states, we may see like in a mirror, dimly, the truth of Him.
@Elizabeth Bennett What you say is physically quite illogical, but spiritually quite sound. Quite often, people cannot understand things outside of their experience. This is understandable, but too often they don't have sufficient imagination (or bravery?) to venture beyond their small knowledge footprint. Atheists will sometimes ask, "What created God?" as if that somehow thrashes belief in a Source cause for physical reality. One man accused me of "special pleading" logical fallacy after I had told him that God is non-dichotomous or "paramita" (perfected) Cause. Some people have a hard time imagining a place where there is no scarcity or lack -- conditions that only exist in the physical half of reality. References: *_The Logical Christian_* (hardcover, Lulu [dot] com) *_Proof of God_* *_The Science of Miracles_* *_The Bible's Hidden Wisdom_*
I'm a simple man. No, really. When someone presents an idea which, if I myself employed it, it would make my life worse, I distance myself from that someone and their idea. I escape what hurts me. Atheism hurt me. Growing up a proud atheist and for at least a decade thinking I was in the right, I eventually discovered I was in a well of thought that obsessed me with unimportant details of life. I thought pride in deliberate distancing from religion, spirituality and ethics was one of my virtues. And it wasn't until a took a step back and saw what I was doing to myself that I stopped and started to fill my life with things with more substance. "Atheist" is a label void of substance. It's merely an obsession with the unknown that can drive someone to accept upon themselves such a thing.
don't mind me.. just here to enjoy a calm,civil discussion from two very different positions . this. this is what we need more of. just because someone says "well I don't agree with that at all" does NOT mean they're attacking you and an invitation to just completely lose your mind.
One thing I found is that it's very hard to convince people of something, people tend to believe what they want to believe and even if that belief is proven wrong, 9 out of 10 people will ignore that and will find some justifyication for still believing in what they believe...
@@jim409 well so, let me say it I believe that life is meaningless consider this many thousands of years later the earth ended along with all the species. Everything the years of research, philosophy, biology all of that is finished now what was the point of it then. So, in my conclusion subjectively life has meaning I mean why would we live then but objective there is not meaning. Tell me if am wrong and why you think I am wrong, yes please. I have no one with whom I can have this kind of discussion
That’s not true. I’m an atheist but don’t believe life is meaningless. My life is full of meaning, but it’s the meaning I decide to give it. For me life has an intrensic meaning, and not an extrensix meaning. Life for me now has MORE meaning to me than it did when I believed in an extrensic meaning. I’m just highlighting this because atheists can be very different and she is some kind of nihilist besides being an atheist. I am not a nihilist.
Her worldview is so contradictory and unfulfilling if one really thinks about what she is trying to communicate. She overthinks the simple and underthinks the more complex. She advocates for a religion of nothingness complete with its doctrines and proselytes. She sure does spend a lot of time attempting to create an argument with enough substance and MEANING to convey her point that life is otherwise meaningless. The critic of air attempting to convince their opponent of air's nonexistence.
“Nothing matters, everything meaningless “ type of dudes are always contradicted of themselves with themselves... The glass of water sits on that table is meaningless then, why did she drinks it if it meaningless? Thirst? Meaningless argument.
Yeah nihilism is a difficult topic because it assumes there is no meaning, just like religion assumes there is. Only the non living or the unexisting can be truly nihilistic. And only those that exist can be the opposite. But if we look from a different perspective, then in the end we are all doomed to be non existent. At least the physical concept of us. Then are we to-be nihilistic?
@@blitzcank9482 yeah, that's our of context. If course in a few million years when humanity dies my comment won't make any sense because there will be no one to try to understand. Your comment states that my comment of nihilism don't make sense. It's different if you think about it.
What Blackmore is saying is, according to her beliefs, there is not inherent meaning in life. She is not saying that there cannot be meaning in life. We create meaning for ourselves and participate in meaning for others.
Drivel like that makes no sense at all and communicates nothing but a very stupid claim with no factual basis whatsoever. Even the term "religious structure" is bullshit created by Peterson in order to pussyfoot around another stupid claim of his he got his stupid ass handed for by Matt Dillahunty.
Man was around before religion. So if anything religious structure stole mans basic moral structure, since that’s really all religious structure is. Don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t cheat on your wife. That’s all common sense
@@jeffgo5742 The basic man moral structure predated religion was to survive winter and produce offspring, there is little to no morality in the primitive mind. Why dont you educated yourself better?
Honestly this is nice to see. I’ve never been formerly diagnosed with depression although I have had similar symptoms with it. As someone who is honestly feeling a lot better now. Just know that it isn’t a lie we tell ourselves. It’s what meaning we as people put into our lives that is true. Wether god is real or isn’t. Wether we believe there isn’t one or that it’s beyond our comprehension. It is the truth that we put meaning in our lives with our goals, desires and dreams. If we are nihilistic, we will feel nothing but pain... we gotta hold onto better beliefs, ideas and hopes then that if we as people are ever going to be happy. At the end of the day. At least when it comes to that moment. We make what we believe to be our reality. Truth is always important and should be first in all manner of things. But in this case. If it involves our moral being and our ability to continue to live and love. The truth in that respect doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if there is god or not. Doesn’t matter if there is anything or nothing. What matters is what we believe. What we see and hear and choose what is true to us. It is both the miracle and curse of us humans. We have the ability to think beyond our own existences and feel these ways. We may have the parts of us that feel this way and we can question that. But ultimately it is up to us as people to go and feel this certain way... and it is in our capability to change that for the better. Good day.
I have an amazing story. One day I was driving home, when all of a sudden the Lord came to me in spirit. I felt very close to Him. I knew if I asked him to play any song on the radio he would, I guess to bless my faith. So I said "ok, Lord play "Come as you are by Nirvana". I turned on the radio and the song started playing right there on the spot, perfectly… I started getting flooded with chills like a waterfall, crying, and trembling. He stayed with me for 10 minutes in my driveway. until I got outta the car. A couple months after that I started getting amazing prayers answered way more often, because it helped me quit doubting when I pray and I was lined up with biblical instructions. It's 6 years later and I still get answered prayers in Jesus name.
She is doing a structure of meaning, but camouflage it with some misconception of positive nihilism. Jordan hit inmiddely that mark. She falls weaker when she is trying to prove it again after that comment.
@@michaelhansen8959 Cade au to her for declaring herself a Nihilist, which you don't see often. However spinning it to be a life philosophy kind of defeats the idea of Nihilism in the first place.
Had this argument start with a coworker. He said he's a nihilist. (Claims to be an atheist) . I said no you're not because you constantly talk about how important your family/ job/ being good to each other is. And I said so you're not a nihilist. He responded rather angrily with "oh I guess you can tell me what I believe?!" I almost laughed out loud.. the contradictions are palpable. I only know how bad because I was him once. Stanch atheist with strong moral convictions. Lol talk about cognitive dissonance.
I feel you, those kind of people are just attention seeker for me, said to be nihilist or atheist but they constantly tell you that their lives are meaningful..... Ironic
We're moral because of our brains. I believe religions have only a role in influencing our morality. They didn't create the morality within us. But there're neurological reasons too. Why do you give money to the poor? Because we can empathize with their situation. Why do we feed our families? Because neurologically, we evolved that way and got picked up by natural selection. If religions taught us morality, then how come we even existed as a civilization to create them?
@@haziblathif491 I agree with this point with the caveat that I believe religion provides a shortcut to people that are not willing or able to grapple with the philosophy of moral vs. immoral. Some aspects of morality are fairly straightforward. For instance, we know it's wrong to commit a cold-blooded, random murder. On the other hand, other aspects of morality are more nuanced. For instance, I remember listening to Sam Harris talk about wrestling with the morality of truthfulness, which took him a semester at university to reach the same conclusion many religions teach: lying is bad.
@@kolbypatrick1914 Morality has both neurological and social basis. Religion exerts influence from the latter, that can then motivate or supress the former. It's a complex thing. But about lying, it's controversial. There are times when lying is good, like the French Christians who saved Jews from Nazis. It must be appropriate. Lies that affect other people are bad. I can lie to my boss that my coworker failed at his part of the work (when in reality, I was just lazy to do my part), but that's bad. Also, I can lie to my parents that I studied today's portions and I know it's not right, but it doesn't affect anyone.
@@jerrybrown6169 if you dont think atheists replace their religiosity with other belief systems (politics , veganism, humanism) then you are dumb. Everyone does it. It certainly isnt a reflex for people not to think religiously.
@@mauriciotorresrivera2991 listen man, God is real, so are demons take it from an African man. We do lots of diabolic stuff here bro. I've seen what I'm talking about. I'll tell one common one, there's a simple ritual that can be done to trace who stole your property (usually in a place like a school where they're a certain number of people) esp. your phone, it works every damn time. You could even browse through Nigerian net, IG or twitter. If you're interested I could send you the link to two witches fighting while standing on the wall - I kid you not, no cgi, no editing, real life stuff bro.
@@mauriciotorresrivera2991 there are plenty of political beliefs and veganistic beliefs based on false information that are held by their believers anyway. Not a good counter.
So smooth so good at what he does it’s amazing two people having different beliefs An feelings not hate each other An talk it out An both get somewhere.. amazing Mr Peterson .
@@marillion4ever that's a stupid question, It's the same as saying you can't consider Einstein a genius just because you didn't easily understand his theory... It wouldn't be a genius if it was easy... And another thing that you have to know is that I'm Portuguese
Peterson is unhinged. I always thought he was, which resulted in a long battle with drugs. Don't think he is any way profound at all. Just tries to use Word salads to try and sound profound.
@@simonpaterson4596 if you really think that then you missed the meaning of what he said and if you missed the meaning of what he said, I'm sorry to say this but you need help
I like to believe that life is subjectively meaningful an objectively meaningless. But at the end, when you believe in something and it actually helps you... All power to you :)
@@LuisAngel-mu4zv trick question :D but that's why we have moral and your two examples are agreed to be bad by almost everyone/ society. Still it's a subject classification, I mean there are people who find it subjectively good. If not it wouldn't happen. Are we objectively bad for killing a lot of other species, our own and our planet? No, objectively that's just part of life. Things just happen. Only we for us decide what good or bad is. But don't be bothered that objectively it doesn't mean a thing. We all experience it subjectively and there it does matter a lot and we can decide what's the right thing to do.
The fact she's even having the conversation about something "meaningless" kind of destroys her argument. It's like trying to argue nothing exists with a few case studies
@@arjenbij, say that you are convinced of Determinism. Then you would have no reason to post your question, because absolutely nothing matters. You would just sit there and exist. You would only tend to the stimulus that arose from you internally, and whatever external stimulus happened to impinge upon you. There is nothing to motivate you to turn on your computer, let alone read anything posted here, let alone reply. A Determined universe is a meaningless universe. All dimensions of space and time collapse down into a single point. A singularity. Like how Peano's Curve is a line which covers every single point in a plane, and can likewise extend to cover every point in a 3-D space, and likewise into a 4-D spacetime. That 4-D spacetime geometry is ABSOLUTELY STATIC, if everything is Determined. Time becomes meaningless. Space becomes meaningless. Everything contracts down to Nihilism. Meaningless. Your existence is meaningless. Posting is meaningless. Going to a debate is meaningless. It is like racing the Indy 500, but with a train instead of racecars. You give the trophy to the car in that train which crosses the finish line first. Well this will always be the locomotive. On that one-dimensional track, there is no possibility for any car to pass another. It is all determined. The race is pointless. In a Deterministic universe, it is the Human Race which becomes pointless.
@@dahawk8574 The difference between a deterministic universe and an indeterministic one is not appearant from the actions one takes. Let's say the universe isn't deterministic. People would go about their day making choices and the universe would evolve according to those choices. In a deterministic universe people would still take certain actions and the universe would still evolve according to those actions. The difference being that those actions only appear to be choices but are actually set in stone. The initial conditions of the universe would cause you to take action and to be present at the debate. You are conflating choice into a deterministic universe by saying that knowing the universe is determinstic will cause you to choose to not do certain things. It makes no difference you see.
@@arjenbij, actually it makes all the difference in the world. Yes, if you are oblivious, then it would make no difference. But we are discussing the _BELIEF_ a person holds. If a person is convinced that everything is Deterministic, then this worldview impacts everything that person does. And how they do it. If a person subscribes to Determinism, and they have thought through the full ramifications of this, then they would also be Nihilistic. (As previously explained.)
The lady has lost gratitude in her being, the reason why she finds no meaning in everything. She is alive, apparently healthy, has a good paying job, living in a safe first world city/country. All these to her are meaningless. Sad.
Her lack of meaning in life comes from having too much. Too much security, wealth, too much 'stuff'. If her life involved the struggle for that very life, which thousands worldwide suffer daily, she would not be mentioning meaninglessness.
Its called Stoicism, the Greeks and Romans used it very effectively and you've completely failed to understand it. From your response I doubt you could.
and religous fanatics conclude that their is a god who they like to pretend they know what he likes and thinks and what hes doing and when hes coming and going based on nothing but concepts theyv attached to their identitys and 0 evidence or experience with this god. Im not atheist but i am surely anti religion
@@mauriciotorresrivera2991 Through the understanding that metaphysical categories themselves can't exist without some objective, unchanging source. Science itself presupposes a plethora of things which it's own means have no way of proving. A priori reasoning is a powerful tool. If everything is just a product of naturalistic foundations then those things are inherently bound to change. But the value of a number doesn't change, logical laws don't change. These things have to be understood from a meta position as you can't prove the immaterial with empiricism.
@@reign2566 You're not getting it, science is a tool, used to understand certain things. Like philosophy is another tool to understand other things. Science is not an overriding force capable of everything, it's not. Again, Science itself presumes mathematical value, logical laws, regularity in nature, induction etc to work. Nothing is a given and Science has no way of proving those things as they are immaterial. No, it doesn't automatically prove God, what metaphysics shows is that there are objective, unchanging things that exist. The universe, which itself is subject to change over time, would be incapable of producing these things as these things are again, unchanging. To expect science to prove God is to expect it to prove why the value of 2 is consistent and unchanging. It has no way of doing so, it's based on sense means and empiricism, but again, not everything exists in those ways. What all of this shows is that something unchanging can't derive from something which is in a constant state of change i.e the universe and everything in it. It doesn't prove one particular God but what it does show is there is an objective, unchanging, immaterial foundation by which these things derive. I'm not making a claim on what that is specifically, other than to say it's primordial and transcendent. I don't see this as some crazy idea. To say otherwise is to claim everything is subjective, which is self contradictory as it's an objective claim. None of this is to degrade science at all, but to show its not some divine source capable of understanding everything, as by its very nature it is incapable
Yeah but that's the point, the default state of this body is to do things, to want things to want some sort of stimulation. Depression is like a "force" that sort of numbs those impulses. That's why is so strange if someone says "just stop being sad" it's not like it's a choice you make. Point being that it's all part of the natural world. No special injected human meaning required.
That’s a miserable outlook on life from this lady. This is what breeds depression, anxiety, and suicide. World view and application of worthlessness leads to a lack of self efficacy. This lack of morality and self worth is what leads to cultural depression like we are living in now.
Religion did not invent morality and humans are not the only creatures that exhibit moral and immoral behavior. The evidence for a supreme and invisible being has never been proven. The burden is on the believer to prove their theory - and their current "evidence" is woefully inadequate.
@@kdhsc The op didnt mention religion, God or any other related term though. He never implied that religion invented anything, or that an invisible and supreme being is in any way related to religious dogma.
God did not need proof from the future that His creation would work. Spiritual Confidence preceded the miracle of creation. The atheist lacks sufficient humility to learn the flaws of their own critical thinking.
Then how do you know a god made it? You can apply that flawed logic to literally any being and it would mean just as much. If you cannot demonstrate something without already accepting it, then you’re argument is circular and irrational.
I agree. It suggests "our hero Peterson is up against yet another foe," instead of it being a conversation between Blackmore and Peterson. I also loathe any idiotic "So and so DESTROYS so and so." Jesus.
They've named her in other clips. It's just a way to promote the videos so they're more watched. I don't think it's disrespectful, but that's very subjective I suppose.
Fair enough. Don´t want to come across as a hater of the content, it´s just that it plays to the clickbait culture, and worse yet, to the "us vs them mentality". I´d very much rather for it to be a fair presentation through and through.
Nialistic: nothing matters so you can do whatever you want. Essentialistic: nothing matters until you decide what matters and you do that. Existencialistic: Everything matters, it is a part of the divine plan. Purpose, you play a part in the vast universe. You do what your faith tells you to do.
For someone who believes the universe is meaningless, she has a lot of hope in the human condition to live. I believe I live in a universe of meaning and I still struggle to find the will to get out of bed. You think we will just continue living in the face of meaninglessness is quite a bold proclamation.
The point is that life is meaningless in the sense that the world could be wiped out tomorrow by a meteor and the universe wouldn't care. It's nihilism, for sure, but it doesn't have to be a depressing philosophy to have. I started reading up on Emil Cioran last Xmas and had a lot in common with him, he suffered from depression though and after writing a book about how life sucks his own mother said "if I had known he'd be this miserable, I would've had an abortion". Quite a ghastly thing to hear, but for him this was a positive, as he realized that if his life is a mistake and meaningless than it doesn't matter what he does and is free to pursue happiness wherever he can find it. If you find meaning in helping the unfortunate or watching your favorite TV show every day at 6 pm it doesn't matter, just try to enjoy life. As for the human condition of living, we do have a very strong sense of self preservation, even if it doesn't matter if we live or die most people don't have it in them to just lay down and die. Most if not all people who commit suicide have clinical depression, an actual illness, it's not normal. So, most people are gonna want to keep living regardless if they believe that life holds a higher meaning or not, and most people want to live comfortably which pushes us to get an education and then work for the rest of our lives to get some enjoyment out of it. Which is fine, you never know when you're going to randomly get smeared over the road by a truck or get cancer. Doesn't matter, have fun.
@@crazycat690 "My life was a mistake" Honestly sounds like a copout for not trying. I think it is something like this from C.S. Lewis, "Though who seek truth will find pain and suffering and by the end could find some happiness in it. Those to pursue happiness will find neither truth nor happiness." (I do not know if he made the quote if he was quoting someone else) When I think about what is "fun" Or "Makes me happy" I am left with an aching a hole of hollowness inside of me that torments me at night for the day I have wasted. I beilive in a God becuase I can't belive in anything else, The best moments of joy and forfilment I have felt come from acting out the prinicles of chist in my everyday then trying to fill the iconography of being a "Good" Chistian. Not to say I am a good chistain but that the ulteratives only seem to end is mersy to me.
Universe is meaningless. Doesn't mean our experiences are. You can still enjoy your life, create goals, have admissions. Whatever gives kicks to your personality.
@@MaryJayProductions I hadn't seen you actually replied to my comment, and I think you misunderstood the point. He didn't mean that his life was a mistake in the way that it shouldn't have happened or something more that, well that it was random, like his mom didn't make him on purpose. Calling it a mistake is perhaps the wrong word for it but I don't believe it's a bad thing (just like he did, hence why the realization actually made him happier, still suffered from chronic depression though!). Like, if your parents didn't mean to make you, if there was no God that made you with a purpose, it doesn't matter if you're seeking out personal happiness rather than trying to live up to what your parents wants for you or live in a way to avoid a God punishing you in the afterlife. Drink alcohol, have sex before marriage, make money from having an onlyfans, draw caricatures of religious prophets, pursue an acting job, work a lowly job, whatever makes you happy. If your parents are disappointed and can't be happy for what makes you happy, screw them, and if someone tells you God doesn't like it if you have sex with someone of the same gender or when you eat shrimp (look it up) then definitely tell them to screw off. For that matter, doesn't really matter if you do decide to go the religious route. If that works for you, knock yourself out, doesn't matter! Personally, I've always found the whole thing to be off putting, I've heard from religious people that I'm gonna burn in hell for my life choices, among them being simply being an atheist, so no thanks. I chose to live a kind and loving life because I want to, don't need a holy book for that, definitely don't need one for all the degenerate behaviors that I greatly enjoy.
"Life is meaningless but I'm going to conduct myself, my behavior, as though that's not true, and get upset when someone says I'm living out a religious thinking." Peterson is correct. Atheists live out religious behaviors and lives while attacking those who are honest enough to say they're doing the same. Atheists would call someone who is living out a set of beliefs they can't prove as a religious thinker. Expect when they do it, they're too clever to succumb to that, so it's something more nuanced.
Hey folks. We held back an exclusive clip of JBP and Blackmore debating whether atheists can believe in free will. If you want it then sign up at www.thebigconversation.show
Pls town down your bias it is not professional and will not encourage further conversations
Dan K - How does it feel to be one of the gullible ones? Selling yourself for impulse.
Trepanation21 what ru talking about? Lol it came out a long time ago
Dude you’re so biased! it’s disgusting. We got it. you’re not an atheist and you love Jordan.
Dawkins wouldn't be able to debate Peterson. That's why he haven't done it yet
It’s a curious thing to listen to people have a meaningful conversation about meaninglessness.
Totally agree with you. Her thoughts are the thoughts of a psychopath.
@@oswaldmattos8479 Nietzsche recognised this incoherence
“God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?” Of course the consequences of his nihilism was madness.
Onesimus, God will always remain dead or non-existent for people without a moral compass. Just look at all the mass murderers of the world. Most were atheists with no regard for fellow man. All evil comes from man himself . It's a sad and disturbing state of affairs.
@@onesimusthings3455 give thanks. on your knees.
@@oswaldmattos8479 whatever is true, noble, right, pure, lovely, admirable, excellent or praiseworthy, think about such things. :) St Paul
JP's face and posture scream "I'm not intellectually challenged by this argument at all."
I don't agree that that's what his face is saying but that certainly seems an appropriate thought
@@stilliving he looks completely laid back, like he's heard this one a million times. "Life is meaningless" but you live like it has meaning.
@@Alexkearney Bravo, it's almost as if we can give meaning to our own lives.
@@stipe9k almost, but not quite.
It’s called listening 🥸
Is it meaningful to write meaningful books about meaninglessness?
is meaningful to the ones who profit from the scam. snake oil. gotta feed yo kids bro even if tht takes writing fictional books. me personally I like Jk Rowling better.
You're right. They are playing a game of sorts.
That sounds like something Douglas Adams would write.
@@Stormkrow280 I’ve been putting off Hitchhikers guide for a long time. I guess I have to read it now!
Yeah if life is meaningless then why even wonder if you're life is meaningless? The fact that she's trying to figure that out shows that she sees value in her life, if she didn't she wouldn't even ask those questions, she just would let herself die and not eat pretty much. We all eat because we want to last and survive as much as we can and that's meaningful.
Susan Blackmore is quite brave to openly allow her beliefs to be critiqued. I respectfully disagree with her, but we so desperately need honest open dialog. I wish her happiness and hope she is well.
Glad you can do so. I can’t, if she purposely allows herself to live such a hopeless existence yet contradicts that by doing anything significant, then she doesn’t deserve my respect.
Respect is earned.
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn exactly.
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn Then what is the meaning of life? We all know that the biological meaning of life is to reproduce and to survive. But aside from that, what is the meaning of life in your opinion? And also if you compare it with the infinity of time and space. (Honest question and sorry for bad english or grammar).
@@quintens879 The meaning of life is to do something that lasts forever, and we’re proud of on this planet that was given to us. It’s a stunning world with so much to do & love.
Above all else; we’re here to have fun & glorify our existence.
At least, that’s just my thoughts, whatever the true answer is, I’m positive it’s not *Life is meaningless.*
@@Grandmaster_Dragonborn when we come to life our life is meaningless. What we do in life is what gives it meaning. The things we try to achieve and we attach to it as you said something that lasts forever. Thats what gives meaning to our life. What you said doesnt contradict the phrase life is meaning less. You agree to it
She tried to tell him that life is meaningless by giving arguments that she has meaning in what she does…
Doesn't make it meaningful that she finds meaning in it. I used to find meaning in playing in the dirt as a kid, there was no value to it and how I felt about it didn't change that.
...exactly...life has whatever meaning we imbue upon it...THAT'S THE POINT...
I mean…..she takes the time to dye specific sections of her hair green. If life is meaningless why bother with something as purely aesthetic as that? Silly argument to say that life is meaningless and then add “so just get on with it”. If life is meaningless then why bother to get on with anything? She’s chasing her own tail.
@@lalatarantula9981 ...said the person who entirely missed the point just like Peterson and the channel who posted this...
...exactly...now you're getting it...life has no intrinsic meaning...only what we imbue it with...
She inadvertantly confirmed the point C. S. Lewis made when he said, "If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."
A more likely explanation is that those desires are a byproduct of your evolved cognitive structures.
Good quote! I would go even further and say that anyone who feels this way would probably find more satisfaction in this life by aiding in the pursuit of the creation of a world where they could fit in. Because if they feel that way, how many other humans feel the same?
Inventing something new, coming up with a new school of thought or even just supporting someone who is in the pursuit of something novel would probably give people who feel like that that were interested a lot of meaning, or at the very least a suitable community.
@Luca StucaTrue, but IQ is not the only factor at play here. There’s no way Peterson’s IQ is below 120, yet he seems not to get it. His mentality is understandable for a clinical psychologist: he wants to reduce suffering, and for many people nowadays that implies finding ‘meaning’ in life (commonly linked to personal responsibilites, as he often argues). Of course, the idea that life is intrinsically meaningful is intellectually indefensible. But either he is fooled by the kind of psychology I’ve just mentioned or he knowingly disseminates false claims in the hope of helping people anyway.
@Michael P, that's not a point, that's an intuition mixed up with wishful thinking. An idea worth philosophising, but nothing more.
@@sebastianparamera2424 Why is the idea that life is intrinsically meaningful intellectually indefensible? Do you think human beings possessing intrinsic value is also indefensible?
1:03
This woman doesn't seem to know what depression and nihilism do to people. I spent years telling myself that everything was pointless and meaningless.
Rather than feel freed by it, I was crushed beneath the emptiness of it all. I wouldn't shower or shave. I would eat barely enough to keep hunger pains from becoming too noticeable. I decided my job added more misery than necessary to my already pointless life, so I quit. Subsisted on donating plasma and charity from my family, worrying them to no end about me. My childhood dream of being a writer became a painful lie I couldn't bear thinking about. Suicidal thoughts were common, the only thing pulling the gun away from my head was fear of the unknown. From my perspective at the time, death could only bring nonexistence or torment, neither of which were better than laying in bed or playing video games all day.
It wasn't until I rejected nihilism and turned to romanticism that my life started to really improve. Every day, I choose to see the meaning in living.
Don't you have any passions? I believe that life has the meaning you decide to give it. Since there's a few things I love doing I try to spend my time participating in these activities as they give me joy. I don't believe in the after life so I have a sense of urgency to do the things I love.
Life is meaninglessness
It's up to you go make it meaningful to you as the observer your actions and what you can do can effect outcome of other thinking beings
We effect each other which makes life worth meaning to us alone
Sounds like you did it wrong.
Depression and nihilism aren’t the same thing.
@@harveydodd8803 i don’t think that was his claim. more that nihilism tends to birth depression
He's spot on! It cannot be a "tragedy" if it is meaningless.
And as a person who has struggled with severe depression, I know what it means to truly believe something is meaningless, and believe me when you truly believe life meaningless, getting up to go to the bathroom is hard.
She absolutely believes life is meaningful!
i think her point was...Life is meaningless and it's up to her to give meaning in it...
it's like an empty bottle you gradually fill up through the years of living
@@friendsfrenz1944 People who are severely depressed won't even fill the bottle, because they see everything as meaningless, including living life.
@@friendsfrenz1944 that's being generous. If you listen closely to what she says following that, it cancels this interpretation
@@primativemath3265 I reject Nihilist Moral Relativism. Life has meaning. It's living it.
@@primativemath3265 That's a whole lot of words just to explain how you don't believe morality is real. Which is moral relativism; E.G.; Moral Relativism is, definitionally, the idea that Morality is a construct of humanity. It is not "I choose what is right", it is the idea that morality is constructed by human beings. So you are a moral relativist.
You are a Nihilist because you don't believe in meaning, you believe meaning is a construct. That's nihilism; the emptiness of life/death/existence.
And I reject both.
“Then you should listen to the body and stop listening to the thing that’s criticizing it.” That words just blew my mind.
That is self contradictory. I like it.
When you know psychotherapy, his word makes perfect sense.
What does he meant by that?
@@ankushdeep8233 Jordan means that we are not our mind - we are experiencing our mind.
He also means, I belive, that research has shown that our bodies have their own intelligence e.g. you don't need to be conscious of digestion for example.
So Jordan is saying, get out of thinking your life as this women was doing and actually LIVE your life.
That's the meaning of life - LIFE itself.
@@maxchadwick7714 Yep. It demands that we have meaning and a meaningful maker. Otherwise, why bother living lol. It’s obvious that there is meaning in order to say the opposite, which is why it is utter foolishness to say there is no meaning. Yes, there are minute things and big things we do not fully understand. That demands meaning also. Jordan is awesome and brilliant.
Whoever is right, I do appreciate that the discussion remains civil. Especially on her part since Jordan in proposing a counter argument to her thesis.
Jordan is clearly right.
@@blackerpanther3329 I agree
Thesis? She wrote a book on this shit?
@@1ma4ighter yeah, a book on her thesis
@@blackerpanther3329 the way I see it, they're both right
Weird life philosophy. It's almost like she thinks her critical mind is in conflict with her person and she's just along for the ride because she can't transplant outta there. Everything she does has meaning (career, students, family) and is constructed by her, but thinks she isn't in control of it. She could just sit in her favourite chair and wait to die. But she doesn't. Because she has meaning, in spite of herself.
Also it denies that there is any fundamental moral or ethical character to anything. I've read from former heroin addicts that it's the best feeling you can possibly imagine. According to her view, there is fundamentally nothing or wrong or inferior with just quitting our jobs and doing heroin every day until we take just enough to gently drift away and die. To say this isn't true from a fundamentally atheistic materialist perspective is ultimately hypocrisy.
@@Pheer777 That's a oversimplification of nihilism. It's the same BS as to say that for a christian ultimately this life on Earth is just to suffer and sacrifice himself everyday and hope for early death to be with the "daddy" ASAP.
It is something fundamentally wrong with quitting your job and doing heroin. You just got this one life, after that it's over, all your experiences, sensations, everything ceases to exist. Why would you want this one shot for "life" to be miserable and short, only because there is no transcendent "big picture" or what?
When you cook your meal, why do you bother to make it appetizing? In a couple of hours you sh...t it out and it's over. There is no transcendent ultimate meaning of that meal and yet people go out of their way to make their meals delicious, event christians...
@@ivanvnucko3056 You misunderstand my point. According to heroin users, it's literally the best feeling you can physically experience. You can't tell me that living a relatively short life of immense pleasure is "worse" than a longer one. It's worse if the variable you're aiming to optimize for is "length of life" but there is no objective reason why that is the "correct" variable to maximize, or why a longer life is inherently preferable to a short one lived with immense pleasure. If a heroin user legitimately wants to do it, you can't point to some objective reason for why he is wrong aside from your own subjective opinions and intuitions, which may differ from others'.
@@Pheer777 I agree suprisingly :) but what is then your point? To be clear I agree with Susan, life is meaningless in objective manner, meaning there is no "fundamental moral anything". That is somehow "bad", or illogical or what is the objection to this worldview?
@@Pheer777 "If a heroin user legitimately wants to do it, you can't point to some objective reason for why he is wrong aside from your own subjective opinions and intuitions, which may differ from others" - And you can point to some objective reason? Is there anywhere in the commandments "Thou shall not abuse heroin..."? If there really is a "objective moral standard" what are it's contents? I mean really some specific contents of this standard (beside the obligatory "do not torture babies for fun").
And can we investigate these contents somehow? If yes, why are there wild disagreements about them? What happens when completely new acts and behaviors emerge (revenge porn, online bulling, stem cell research etc.) which were not present in the past, is the moral standard updating itself?
And if we cannot objectively investigate it (it's only "written in our hearts" or something) what is then the practical difference to moral relativism, where everybody creates his own moral standard? If most people in the world do not accept the authority of the christian "lawgiver" and the objective existence of your moral standard as binding for everyone, how does its existence help you to settle the disagreements?
As a person who suffer from depression, anxiety and autoimmune problems.. I can tell you that finding meaning in everything I do is something very important for my life that’s has kept me going. If I was to think like that lady here says, I would have be a goner a long time ago. It’s in the face of adversity and suffering that we need to have the courage and faith to keep living. Because even in the darkest moments in life, being able to see the light up ahead is so meaningful. There are good moments even in the midst of suffering. And like someone said “we live by faith not by sight”…that is so true, because even our minds and feelings can play tricks on you.
Exactly ever since i came to Christ my life feels more fufilling a purposeful.
I too had also suffered with depression anxiety and was gonna kill myself because I had a mentality like this. "This is pointless, life is nothing anyways"
But Christ came to me and saved me of all that and now I truly have purpose in all i do
I can understand that I also have major depression, anxiety and insomnia and I use to eat raw garlic multiple times a day to get my blood circulating cuz depression etc causes you to lose blood circulation and make you cold and would use garlic to get my blood circulating but after a few months I was getting more fatigue and being very slow minded about things and got a blood test showing I was on the very edge of autoimmune syndrome and I went to get a bottle of fish/flaxseed oil supplements and took a dozen a day and in a week I was feeling better and by the 2nd week I was lot better and the Dr did another test showing I was back to normal and asked me how I did so fast I told him I took a lot of fish/flaxseed oil supplements daily for 2 weeks and he told me I was crazy to do that but understood that it was as unhealthy
@@tylersoto7465 wow that’s good that you where able to feel better. I know diet has a lot to do with it. I been trying to eat cleaner. I do notice every time I do slip of the wagon I start feeling lower energy and lethargic. I hope one day we can over come this problem completely.
@@quilodinerro amen I’m happy you found Christ. And same thing I find God gives meaning to all this reality. Especially Christ. All my best wishes to you. Keep fighting the good fight of faith. And I know God can heal our hearts and body form this horrible sickness. We have to keep believing. God bless.
@@elielsolis God bless you 🙏🏾
It would be great if Jordan Peterson and Richard Dawkins would have this kind a debate
It would be great if he had a _discussion_ with someone. Peterson is very defensive in a lot of his interviews. He needs an unmoderated conversation, and someone that will put him at ease. Dawkins would be a good choice, because of his temperament, but I think you need someone who also has a more philosophical background as well. Someone like Pinker would be ideal maybe.
I don't think Dawkins would do so well.
Dawkins is an irate moron who likes to spew out big words in steaming chunks.
@@sherlockinsomniac At least Dawkins's strings of big words have meanings. As a rule, after Peterson greets a fellow debater at the start of a debate, almost everything else he says is utterly cognitively meaningless.
@@ryanlee5887 Dawkins would demolish Jordan P and it would be sad to watch because Jordan P would plough on earnestly and stubbornly with his usual, utterly meaningless nonsense about Jung and Nietzsche and archetypes.
“The atheist types act out a religious structure and criticize it.” -JP
So true. Humans can’t get away from acting out meaning because it’s wired in us.
What religious structure? Being mindful of others has nothing to do with religion. It's a matter of survival.
@@briannyob7799hey friend. In the whole debate you get the essence of Peterson’s ideas:)…It seems a religious structure is simply a series of values and morals that all humans cannot get away from acting out on a daily basis.
@@drivebyquipper yes, of course.
@@jarrettjb I think you need to watch a bit more JP's videos. The man is all over the place. Can never seem to get him to commit to any idea about religion. One minute he tries to say there is a god and he believes. The next pulls this BS, about a religious structure. Yes, society has values and morals.
@@briannyob7799having read his book I’ve found him to be fairly consistent although I’m sure he’s got some flaws. It seems every man has religion. In other words a series of laws and rules, shoulds and should nots written on their conscience. Humans can’t get away from their belief systems. When I was an atheist I had a structure of ultimate reality that I walked according to.
She says “nothing matters, everything is empty and meaningless”, then how can she recognize that bad things happen to her and there are tragedies around the world? Mustn’t she assign meaning to herself and and the world around her to recognize that bad things are happening? Of course it all had meaning. She only says these things to cope with the bad things that happen to her and to cope with the tragedies in the world.
Somehow she sounds like a teenager contemplating the meaning to life and hasn't quite moved beyond what a "bummer" it can all be at times
I think if she were completely honest she would admit like Jordan that she is afraid God does exist.
@@sunshinegirl1967 If God exists, then life is meaningless,
christian faith is life denying, you`re wasting this life that you have for a god that doesn`t even want you!
If God exists he is the cruelest most evil thing in existence.
100% agree👍
You did not argued at any point that something is meaningful. You argued that things just happened. Witch is kinda what she said.
You see good or bad is a concept of people. Nothing in this universe has ethical values.
Or any proven reason. Things just happen.
If you don’t believe that we are meaningless why do you think we believed that the earth is the Center of the universe and the sun is rotating around us?
Because we want to believe that we are important, but that does not mean we are.
and that my friend is a proof in itself that we tent to lie to ourselves and that we’re not sincere when we think that the reality is that we are important. We just wanted to be. but the truth is more sad.
The universe is not made for us, neither against us. We don’t have a purpose in it. Or at least we don’t have an argument that we have one. We just exist.
I'm an atheist but like so many in high-school and even in early 20s I lived having a nihilistic views and it absolutely ruined me. It wasn't until I started to create values and personal responsibility and tell myself free will exists that my life started to improve and I felt better. I don't care if it's not true from a great philosophical argument or what not. It works it feels human. I'll lie to myself if it means I don't go back to being a nihilist. I had severe depression isolation and no reason to do anything. I actually am way more tolerant towards religious ppl because I wouldn't want anyone to completely live out the idea of nothing matters, it's all meaningless.
Thanks for sharing! It was the same kind of thinking for me that brought me towards Christianity. God is so loving and gives us meaning that I decided to give my life to Jesus!
Thank you for your honesty! I agree with you on this.
I wish you well and hope you're doing good nowadays! :) And for whatever it's worth to you, I will keep you in my prayers.
This guy gets it
You explained it way better than the jordan Peterson and Susan Blackmore
St Augustine said it best; Oh Lord our hearts are restless until they rest in thee. Seek the fullness of heaven not the emptiness of this world
He also said that the truth of Nature does not conflict with the Truth of Scripture. If ever there appears to be a conflict, then it is the interpretation of one, the other or both that is in error.
@@RodMartinJr Nature cannot be misinterpreted, neither science.
@@brucedownunda7054 LOL. Read Thomas S. Kuhn's, *_The Structure of Scientific Revolutions._* Classic work which shows plenty of examples of scientists misinterpreting nature and distorting science with their imperfect worldviews. Look up Isaac Newton and phlogiston. It took the likes of Lavoisier to fix Newton's misunderstanding on "fire."
The problem is there is no after life. We'll all be food for worms.
@@juliovillagran4105 Tye afterlife is more real than my written response to your remark. There is tons upon tons of proof that there is God and that there is an afterlife. Trouble is most of this world today cannot see it as they are blinded by materialism, greed and false power that this empty world offers.
Just the fact that we discuss the meaning of life, means it has a meaning.
@@huskestativ Perhaps not but if iron exists it has its purpose, therefore, it has it's meaning.
@@huskestativ the fuck has iron got to do with it?!
@@giuseppetota "but if iron exists" but do you have faith iron exists?
@@fukpoeslaw3613 why faith?
But how do you get to that conclusion?
From what Standpoint are you reffering?
Just because you discuss something it doesnt inherently mean that it has a meaning. Maybe for you it has a meaning because you think that it has a meaning. But you cant make that argument for everybody because everybody has different understandings about the meaning of life. You cant propose something just because you think about it. Because if you argue like that you can insert every other word into that equasion because it has to be a universally applying theory. It isnt really an argument that you are making there. If you would have said that "God exists and he made me so i have a meaning now" thats perfectly alright. Because as an argument you have your religion or god. And that subject gives you the meaning. So its koherent. Whereas a discussion cant give you a meaning because a discussion is just a word that we have brought up. Its a made up word. We can discuss and think about it because of biological evolution and the anatomy. We can speak because of several factors like our mouth for example or tongue. The other think is our intelligence. The constant questioning about the meaning of life has been a topic for thousands of years. Thats where all the cults and religions from past civilisations came from. They were trying to explain all the things going on around them by inserting a "god" into that equasion. Something that is out of your control. You can only think about something that you have experienced yourself. Just like you can only dream about something that you have done before, have watched before or experienced before. You cant dream about America for example if the country was given a different name. Same applies to a "dicussion" its firstly a word. And the meaning of that word is having a conversation about a certain topic and your opinion based upon your past experienced and knowledge. So how do you conclude from a discussion that life has meaning. You combine a physicall and biological factor and intelligence and experience and you conclude and come up with a completely different thing. It doesnt make sense to me.
After 26years of living in Godless foolishness, I thank God 8 years ago for opening my eyes to the truth! The arguments atheists come up with are embarrassing to me as a reminder of how I used to be.
That's awesome what changed your views. What changed you?
I am just curious that is all.
Well and using a 2000 y o book as proof of your believe is not embarassing?!
Just accept that your believe is believe, not truth nothing more is said by atheists
@@lisamorre7946 Well...I would like really to listen to him and ask what made him change though
@@lisamorre7946 why would it be embarrassing? you have faith about that I have faith about this to me it is truth now stfu🗿 honestly I'm proud I can use a 2,000 yr old book as proof what can you use 🗿 Jesus lived and resurrected no body in his tomb
@@lisamorre7946 0+0+0 = cannot be possibly equal to 1.
Let me state one point here which is true for all of us. We all wish we had a family member not even to mention a father like Mr. Peterson to just talk about almost anything.
I absolutely don't. He is a liar indeed. I would not like him as a family member by any stretch of the imagination
Oof I'm not sure if I'd want JP as a family member because I don't talk openly with my family so....
But for sure I'd like to have a chance to talk with him.
You need surrender yourself to god.
Fuuuckkk no. Can you imagine having that foo as a family member, just hyper analyzing everything you say or do, never smiles, never cracks jokes, never just messes around, everything is a fucking intellectual debate. Fuck that! Homie doesn’t know how to let go and enjoy life, everything is a fucking monstrous intellectual conversation with him. Everything has to go through the filter of reason. No wonder he’s so fucking depressed.
@@ramon2008 yeaaaah and you're psychologist and you know if he's depressed. Lol.
Scrolling down the comments is meaningless!
it kinda is tbh
@@adde6100 also is meaningless to not scroll down the comments...
@@teamatfort444 there is more meaning in scrolling through comments than not doing so
Beleiving that everhthing is meaningless is also meaningless...
The last sentence from Peterson is so on point. Atheists live out a religious structure and criticize it at the same time
I didn't understand what he meant by 'religious structure', can you explain?
@@aksy1430555 what I think he is saying is (and I must emphasis that this is just my personal interpretation) is that most atheists take there atheism as a sign of enlightenment above theists. Rationalizing it as 'I understand the world better than most, so I have a greater understanding of the world' which is basically just what most fanatical theists say. And the other interpretation I can think of is that most atheists "barrow" their moral structures and foundations from religions, mainly because of the fact that atheism inherently has no moral foundation, because no matter how good of an argument you make, the inescapable truth of the matter is that according to an atheistic stand point; life is meaningless and there is no point to our existence.
for example, most feminists are of the understandable and correct opinion that rape is a bad and wrong thing. but most feminists are probably also atheists, But the idea (in the west at least) that rape is wrong originates from Judeo-Christianity, and the idea that people should keep themselves for marriage
Any way its like 2am and I am in no way an expert at debate, that's just my opinion and you internet people can feel free to pick my entire world view apart peace by peace, I don't care good night.
@@joejoe0213 Oh I see, so this is in response to radical athiests. This is weird tho cuz I thought atheism was about not believing in the idea of there being a higher power that is inherently responsible for everything. This idea of life being meaningless seems pretty absurd to me. Just because there isn't a God that does not make everything meaningless. There is absolutely meaning in being curious about the universe and trying to make sense of it all and understanding how everything around us works. This "meaningless" ideology is absurd if you ask me.
Also, saying life is meaningless if there is no God is just admitting that God needs to be real for everything to make sense which contradicts this radical atheism and the whole argument just falls apart.
Atheism is not a religious structure. Atheism is nothing more, and nothing less than non belief in a creator of the universe. Atheists only universal trait is that they demand evidence.
@@joejoe0213 The last place I would ever go for moral guidance is scripture. Morality is a human construct. Is is based on the premise of harm. Anybody with an intellect can understand that rape is a horrible thing and thus immoral. Most people easily understand the concept of "this is bad because I wouldn't want it done to me." There is no need to source a higher power to explain this.
I may be one of the only people here who sincerely loves and respects the work of both of these thinkers. For those not familiar with Dr. Blackmore, her work on culture and memes is absolute vital to understanding civilization. Jordan Peterson has been a keystone figure to my understanding of the world as well. I’d have paid good money to have been in that room for that discussion.
Memes are memes anyone attaching some profound societal thing to it is just a fool, if your dumb enough to assign meaning to memes but not your life then sorry you don't deserve to debate an intellectual like Jordan his time is more valuable than someone saying life is meaningless but attaching meaning to toilets and memes, it is blatant absurdity of how far our culture has fallen that people attach meaning to a meme.
@@dongalore9028 I have to assume you think we're referring to "meme" in the colloquial sense-that's the only way I can make sense of a comment like this. "Memes" in the context of this discussion isn't describing a funny image that gets passed around on the internet." The study of memetics is a serious branch of psychology and anthropology, in which a meme is described as an individual of unit of culture that is passed from person to person. The word "meme" was coined by Richard Dawkins to work in tandem with the the idea "gene." It's describing the Darwinian aspect of culture and society.
Jordan Peterson isn`t a thinker, he is a great psychologist,
his philosophical understanding is so lack luster, and he misrepresent philosophers consistently to support his own political or christian morale views.
Ok Jared. I'll make a meme out of that. It'll change the world.
@@thetruth4654 Where can I watch him misrepresent philosophers?
"You have made us for yourself, O Lord, and our heart is restless until it rests in you.”
Saint Augustine
I wonder if Susan has ever heard of a book called “Ecclesiastes”.
Vanity vanity....its all vanity. It might make her actually think.
I thought the same thing! Everything is meaningless…
"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." The paradox - if you will - is that everything in this world is ultimately meaningless, in a carnal sense (all is vanity), but spiritually it is full of meaning (fear God and keep his commandments).
It’s explained in the New Testament which she will never read.
@@joeloverti672 unfortunately cause she is an atheist
I was almost suckered into becoming a "new atheist" when I first emigrated to North America as an international student. I figured i wanted to be accepted by the culture and I also wanted to come off as sophisticated. Until I actually met and interacted with several of them and found them to be very narcissistic, lacking any sort of foundation for their reasoning, too quick to deny the positives of Judeo-Christian traditions that built the western world and also too accepting of divisive identity politics. I immediately left and am glad to still be a practicing Catholic today.
Wouldn't call you a Catholic . Just a pretender
@@disciplinedgrindset623
Without knowing him, yet you could tell that he's lying from him using his keyboard to tell his experience??
No wonder you're the way you are 🤣😂
You're not very smart!
@@emmanuel8310 ?? confused
@@emmanuel8310 why would he lie ??
@@emmanuel8310 I don't think you are very smart .....why do you think he is lying when you haven't ever seen him or known him
The last line was killer: "The atheist types act out a religious structure and then criticize it."
The "big conversation," where one person talks constantly, the interviewer interrupts, & the smartest person in the room can't finish a sentence thanks to the other two.
Exactly what I was thinking!
1:50-2:00, within a period of 10 sec, Dr. Peterson gets talked over twice
Thank U😎
Well JP did his fair share of interrupting as well
@@wesleywallace101 Would he have been able to speak otherwise?
Those who live by the body will die by the body. Those who live by the spirit will reap everlasting life.
You hope.
@@jimmythemadostrich8947 amen
Amen, John. And the everlasting life will not be "of the body," either, but of the spirit which is non-physical (no space, no time, no energy, no mass, for these are the dark reflection of God). As a Homo sapiens animal, we rely on the continuity of conscious of the brain. As spirit, we have untouchable consciousness outside of the physical -- within the firm foundation for both halves of physical reality.
@@RodMartinJr I can roll with that. And even though the spirit is eternal, it still needs a "body" in which it is able to experience the rest of creation. Hense, we will get new bodies after the resurrection. Ones that can experience the Creator in His fullness. For now, we live by faith.
@@johnscaduto9332 Thanks! This is a popular myth, because people tend to be attached to physical existence. Your use of "faith" is also not how I would use it; "faith" does not mean "belief." I still have a long way to go, but I have experienced seeing this physical universe without physical eyes. I've experienced dozens of miracles. And I have remembered thousands of years. When you fully live as spirit, instead of the separate, selfish ego, you no longer need a body for continuity of consciousness. In heaven, there is no space, time, energy or mass, and thus no bodies. As Christ said, in heaven there will be no taking of wives. God created man twice -- first in His own image, and then from the dust of the ground. And I'm sure you'll agree with me that God's image is *_not_* one of dust.
When I tend to a sick patient and relieve suffering, I doubt that the patient believes that action is meaningless.
Good point. - does you both good too!
That's because even the nihilist can't live as if suffering doesn't matter.
there are plenty of things you can do that are meaningless but also enjoyable. Depends on your context.
It might mean something to you guys but in the context of the universe, everything you do is meaningless.
Jordan Peterson has an incredible mind. She was civil but he completely deconstructed her arguments.
No, he dismissed her arguments based on his own ideology.
Deconstruct? Are we using the same English language?
@@humanitarianbombings If you're a Lefty I'm pretty sure we're not.
@@MrVara411 LOL well if you're conditioned by either constitutionally degrading corporate owned party, you're easily impressed and ignorant my friend. The mere fact these two do not denounce a debate about whether life is meaningful or meaningless makes their conversation a useless one. It's like asking them to prove or disprove whether God is real. It's an unanswerable question for our limited species.
@@bethgleason3896 he dismissed her logic as if she was a small child claiming to be an astronaut in the future
"those meanings are constructed by myself"
even if that's accurate, you have still accepted a meaning to everything, even if you constructed it, it's still there, so its not meaningless
Dont see how that pertains to a higher power.
Her point is that those meaning are not an objective fact, but rather a careful (or not) manifestation of her neurobiology or consciousness (whatever that is).
Yes but the point is that meaning is subjective and not objective.
In other words there is no "meaning" in the universe. It just is.
@@drquantum6548 subjective or objective, its still meaning, whether it was there to begin with or had to be constructed.
@@jackadams3878 The conversation revolves around the existence of a higher power which applies that "meaning" to us all. If meaning is self constructed and has a different definition for each individual, how does that prove that it was brought on by higher power?
If that is true, that life holds no "meaning", then it logically follows that her statement is also packed full of meaninglessness and is nonsensical. So why should we try to have a meaningful conversation about how meaningless life is?
Because she doesn't even know the definition of meaning. She is high on materialism, surfing the coolness of discarding such abstract notions, no materialist has ever tried to fathom, from the worldview, like it's nothing, not realizing, that it contradicts everything about her as a person. It's cool to say such loud theses, while supporting it with scientific thoughts, almost noone can disprove, but JP has put the "almost" in the "almost noone can disprove", and that's awesome in many ways.
Which is true, on an objective basis. There's a difference between the meaning that JP is talking about (an objective meaning of life) and the meaning that Susan is talking about (subjective meaning).
@@sergiarts MEANING IS MEANING! LETS NOT SPLIT HAIRS NOW !!!
@@whitekaren7742 "let's not analyse any further just in case I'm wrong about this !!!"
@@sergiarts WHO CARES IF YOUR WRONG OR RIGHT ?
- "I'm bored"
- * goes to indentured servitude and immense pressure of 4 years in studying *
I'd say that's borderline insane.
Unless there's enough meaning to forsake salary, or self-employed, way of life for the demands of the next 4+ years.
I assume she meant she already was in university and that was an obligation on her daily life
Those are rational self interests and not based on any religious structure
@@hamzamahmood9565 those?
There's only one - boredom.
Who relieves their boredom by going to a university? Harvard graduates?
@@manubishe Bro it's just an example made on the moment, there could be way much more into it, stop biting onto the other's slip
@@cristhiancamarena9534 a slip?
She's making a case for a principle that connected humanity together since the beginning,
If you're there to debate religious principle, "slip" is not an option.
You don't accidentally slip into a religion, do you ?
The worst part of her argument is what Jordan frequently argues, which is that her outlook is horrible once great suffering and tribulation enters into your life. If you don't believe there is a deep meaning to your life, the suffering is very likely to absolutely break you.
I'm not trying to pick on the guy but... Great suffering entered his lie and it absolutely destroyed him. I'm not sure his outlook is anymore protective.
@@Strawbclock0 believing in higher meaning doesn’t make you immune to being broken, I don’t believe that’s what this guy is trying to say. It’s moreso that believing in higher meaning can offer resilience
Who do you think is happier?
No that’s not true, Jordan Peterson and others who think like this are too obsessed hypotheticals, moving on and carrying on to survive is life personified
The assertion that life is meaningless is a faith claim, and living such a life is a performative contradiction.
can u elaborate
@@pejv7903 saying that life is meaningless like saying there is no god is a faith claim which means you dont believe that there is a purpose in this world or life, saying life is meaningless is the most extreme way to say that there is no point in existing, but even still existing means that you fundamentally contradicted that assertion, because if life is meaningless and god doesnt exist, what is the point on living? why doesnt she kill herself? because she doesnt want to die? but she already stated that life is meaningless, she shouldnt feel fear of death or have any emotions for that matter, that is why that mentality is inhuman, there is no person in the world who can wholeheartedly live thinking nothing matters, because just by living you are contradicting yourself.
@@streptococo4735 that's so dumb to think man. "Just by living you contradict yourself saying life is meaningless". So what do you expect of such a person, to cease existing? Kill themselves because life has no meaning, no clear goal set?
I don't agree with that kind of stupid reasoning. I think we can think life is meaningless, yet still get on with it. Actually if anything, the only real meaning to life is just to simply be alive, and that's it. But can that count as a real meaning? Is not 'not existing' enough to give life a meaning? Because that's essentially what it's like without life, you don't exist. It's the same after, you don't exist.
It's darkness and nothingness, you're born, got however much time you have on this planet, with many variables like the lifestyle you lead, accidents, murder, diseases and so on and then after you die that's it. Nothing again.
berryryder I do agree but I don’t think you actually countered their argument rather u stated what you thought without giving reason to back it up.
@@thehazardheath8558 Because what else is there to say?
Life has absolutely no meaning, bar for the simplicity of just being alive.
It's true that as humans we do our best to give it meaning so it makes sense, so we have an actual reason to push through. It's the same with religion, people use it to justify all this, life, existence. To make a little sense out of it.
There's no clearl goal in life, no pre-determined path. It's not like a movie with a set storyline and already determined events, or like a book, a video game. Other than not "not existing", we don't have anything. That's why humans make shit up to feel better about it.
If she really believed in meaninglessness, she won’t be debating it in the first place.
Exactly.
Her entire premise is just one big contradiction
Well, when you say the truth itself is meaningless, yeah, it's going to be pretty hard to convince others that your viewpoint on the truth is worth listening to.
@@theboombody shes doing basically what a lawyer does defending someone, knowing full well hes a criminal but do it anyway
Excellent observation.
Thinking that you’re worthy of meaning is such a self centred perspective to have. It is religion which has indoctrinated us to believe we are at the centre of the universe. We have been on this earth for such a minuscule amount of time in relation to our ancient ancestors.. to pretend we have all the answers and religion somehow has a monopoly over meaning is ridiculous. To be here, alive , in this very moment in time..is awe inspiring as it is. The universe doesn’t owe as anything, especially not meaning. WE create our own meaning.. through love, endeavours, hardships, relationships, passion, exploration of knowledge… she obviously doesn’t believe everything is meaningless (that’s a strawman). She believes meaning isn’t something we inherit just because we are human.
It's interesting how Peterson just nailed her with simple words, precise logic & sharp intellect. No fanciful big words from him.
That's because they are not saying anything new , and Peterson knows all the angles they try and play.
@@markanthony3275 No, it's because JP just says just one thing over and over - "you're a christian only you don't know it", he is the most obnoxious debater I ever saw in a high profile debate.
@@ivanvnucko3056 There could be another reason you don't like him. Have you considered that ? He could be right in what he says. He doesn't put it in exactly the same words as another well known and brilliant psychologist/psychiatrist , Dr Jeffrey Satinover, who says that "all seek the eternal object ( God)but know it not" and that "when a person does not attach meaning to it's proper eternal object but attaches it to some instinctive form of gratification, the pursuit becomes compulsive, even addictive and ultimately monstrous. In drugs the drug addict, in alcohol , the alcoholic, in sex, the philanderer, in winning, the gambler and in food the compulsive eater...all seek the one God and know it not; all thus become idolators". Dr. Petersen says people are Christians they just don't know it. Dr Satinover merely says that everyone seeks the meaning and purpose that only can come from God, but when they try and find that some where else, the result is always destructive. The Bible says that everyone starts their life with an evil human nature and is naturally separated from God, and can't know God...unless they make a choice to accept the person and work of Jesus Christ ( accept that you are a born sinner, and that Jesus Christ died to take the judgement God had for you, upon himself ) which then restores their relationship with God.
@@markanthony3275 What he says is so vague and abstract that it almost doesn't matter if he is right in some sense. Did you see Sam Harris's Cookbook analogy to JP's "theories"?
More importantly this is just a "dick way" to argumentation. "You inside agree with me, you just don't know it yet...". It's just frustrating. Try to empathize here - imagine you debating with some scientologist, when he in the end always says: "You don't believe me now, but your Thetan inside is seeking Xenu and wants to reunite with him..." or some such BS.
@@markanthony3275 he is a fucking grifter...
"The world is just evil get used to it"
Is exactly what evil people running things want everyone to believe.
She doesn't listen or answer his questions, just thinks of what she's going to say next :/
Nah, they’re having a decent conversation. She does answer some of his questions. It’s actually pretty nice to see discourse like this compared to the absolute bullshit that is on the news.
@@themeat8624 i wouldn't want to have a conversation with her
I like them both. Her book bout mémés is good. And I bought his book, seems to be helpful, too. It is nice to listen to smart people having an respectful exchange of thoughts
Exactly, I like both of their arguments. This is the most calm debate between two different views on life. It just put a smile on my face that we do have the meanings to actually be at peace with different strong beliefs and someone to actually challenge that and exchanging thoughts without being mean and toxic.
Her points were definitely not solid.
@@venglomarci which exactly ?
@MrRex Gamer She claims life is meaningless and then talks about how the meaning of life is to fulfill your biological needs. People who actually figure out life is meaningless commit suicide. Why talk to people, why go to work, why eat, why drink, why breath. Why live.
So she states things she does not actually believe and are not true. If the statement was "what is the meaning of life beyond fulfilling your biological means", then yes.
At that level of discussion, such a generalization and oversimplification renders your argument wrong and untrue. And can cause suffering in people who listen to her.
Or the claim "If you meditate, good behavior follows." It is some undefined wishful thinking.
Compare that to JP. "Are you a religious person?" "Define religious person."
@@kofola9145 I think you should read her book as well as The Selfish Gene by Dawkins and many other books. The argument of a senseless or meaningless or purposelessness is still there and won't disappear just because we don't like it. Even the foundations of math can collapse if you question the basic axioms as Gödel did.
Wow, she seems more depressed than thoughtful. Instantly criticizes everything said to her with meaningless drivel.
@My Poppy let’s not be careless here. It’s not drivel by any means, it’s quite a powerful argument she’s making, or at least which she’s leaning on. The burden of proof lies on Jordan here, even if there’s reason to believe he’s right.
It is depressing to think there's nothing beyond this life and that's enough for many to think that life is ultimately meaningless.
@@mysigt_ Her only issue is that she teaches people her very depressing philosophy. I believe what she says, but if someone can convince themselves that their is meaning in life why would you want to convince them otherwise? I would never wish the same existential dread I feel everyday on anyone else.
@@jordanp8268 Reality is depressing. Implying that we should be happy and find purpose are children stories. Meaning does not exist in nature anywhere. Inventing it is religion.
@@Tore_Lund Privileged cynicism. Some people need meaning to get them through a life far harder then yours. It's easy to be cynical when you've been on easy mode all your life. The boredom alone would've made me bitter.
As a former nihilist life has meaning. People only say that it is meaningless because they don't have anything that is meaningful to them.
A qoute that further explains what I'm trying to say goes like this, "Maybe, just maybe there is no meaning to life but if you linger long enough you may find something of value". For me when i found that something in life that I valued I no longer was a nihilist. What I valued had meaning and it had meaning to me.
Dr. Peterson in just one of many, 'hold my beer' moments throughout his career.
😁
I used to be pretty nihilistic, listening to her now it just strikes me how sad it sounds. It feels like there's something there as well that if life is meaningless you neither have to believe it nor make a case for it.
Nihilism is basically saying "killing yourself is fine because you don't matter and all the people that will suffer and grieve your death don't matter either". Only thing keeping them alive is probably sexual activity.
I was feeling annoyed listening to this woman but was then taken back by Peterson's calmness and generosity in engaging in this conversation with her. He is a master of honest communication. I definitely need more work in this area.
Just wondering why did you feel annoyed
@@maartenjanez1489 he's still in the first step
The step when he just love whats exactly support his view
I disagree with this woman but everything is good with her
This is just nice conversation
I saw theres 2 type of JP's fans
1. The people who actually love discussion without disrespect the others
2. The people who tired with the "leftists or anything opposite of jp's or conservative way of thinking" so they use JP as a weapon against them
@@maartenjanez1489 I wonder about that too. I disagree with the Atheist woman. But why would someone be annoyed by listening someone's honest straight forward opinion?
Lol you need to watch more DESTROYS LIBTARD WITH FACTS AND LOGIC videos
Urg, Jordan Peterson Fanboys make me want to vomit.
Appreciate these kinds of intellectual conversations that stay focused on the point and not personal attacks on one another.
It is funny to see people get mad over disagreements lol.
Would be great if lady waited her turn and let Jordan speak. Heez, she just kept cutting him off mid sentence.
That's how those kind impress the empty headed youth.
because peterson was talking nonsense...
@@Darusdei it's only "nonsense" if your IQ is below 90. Lol
Peterson was doing that as well
@@9usuck0 ok
If everybody was thinking like her this world would be in a total anarchy... I swear some normal people have way more common sens than some 'scientist'
😂 she is way above your level of understanding
I saw nihillistic people who are asses and nihillistic people who are decent folks,I saw christian people who are asses and saw good among them as well,I saw atheists way better than a muslim and saw an atheist who is a wicked person and vice versa.
I guess at the end of the day,labels do not matter,what comes as good always stays as good and what comes as bad always stays bad.
They are not against one another,that is why I never judge people by their philosophy of their life or their religion or culture,only by the way they act and behave,sometimes religion can make us more humaine sometimes not!
We can not get a solid conclusion from anything.
Deep down some try to be good in their life even they could not convince themselves to see life meaningful.
I feel God is something really beyond all philosophies or even mainstream religions.
Trust me,if it were a heaven,he would not go harsh on for example an atheist scientist who did all he good in order to progress like Stephen Hawkins,you can see good and bad clearly in people as soon as you start knowing them,and these debates,they all are a part of our progressikm
@@rotorblade9508 Putting people down isn't a great way to defend your hero. Adding a laughter emoji doesn't help your case either.
Even the act of adding color to her hair has a meaning, and a purpose.
Not total anarchy, extinction
Someone has posted this below: "The "big conversation," where one person talks constantly, the interviewer interrupts, & the smartest person in the room can't finish a sentence thanks to the other two." Sums up my feelings perfectly. Blackmore reminds me of Katie Hopkins.
No smart person voluntarily enters a room in which the fascist crackpot Jordan Peterson spreads his extraordinarily stupid drivel.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 cry more
@@thehorde4868 Upto this moment the only one ever to cry in public and claim victimhoood is Jordan Peterson.
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 😭😭😭
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 The smart person in this video is the one who in real time calmly and rationally demonstrates the inherent contradictions and logical lapses of the other. He manages to do this even while being interrupted by the increasingly more agitated "academic" whose points are shown to be (ironically) meaningless and incoherent.
As for the assertion that Peterson is a "fascist", this can be repeatedly shown to be false. At least, in the normal sense that people interpret "fascist". I have heard Peterson say, "I don't like Nazis". "Hitler was more evil than what you think". Look at the Queen's University Jordan B Peterson lecture, and see how the protesters tried to block the audience from entering, pounded on the windows the entire talk, and talked about blocking the exits and set the auditorium on fire. Now, you tell me: who was acting like facists?
I suffered from Acedia for a very long time. Despair and nihilism is one of the seven deadly sins. God preserve us 🤲☦️
the mediator needs to hold his horses and actually be a mediator!
Lol
There is a difference between life being meaningless and giving your own life meaning.
That is what essentially she is saying.
Life is what you make it and what you make it ends when you are gone.
Its really not that a hard a concept to grasp. It amazes me so many people fail to realise it.
BUT THATS NOT TRUE! LIFE IS WHAT IT MAKES OF YOU .
@@whitekaren7742 That is not the same thing. One can make one's life meaningful irrespective of (as Shakespeare said) " the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune."
@@jackwachtel-scott8000 LIFE IS NOT MEANINGFUL WITHOUT A HIGHER POWER (GOD) OTHERWISE PEOPLE WHO DIDNT BELIEVE IN ONE WOULD JUST KILL THEMSELF! NO BODY, NO MEMORY, NO PAIN, NO GUILT !! BUT WE KNOW THATS NOT WHAT HAPPENS!
@@whitekaren7742 Many people do not believe in God and do not kill themselves.
If there is no meaning how can there be purpose? If there is no purpose why does she write books and teach. To do these things you need to be motivated by something and the root of that motive is where your treasure is.
Then you haven't paid attention to what she said.
Rationally there's no meaning, biologically we have desires and insticts that drive us out to act the way we do in our everyday life, ultimately to avoid suffering, life is meaningless, but suffering sucks, which one would you choose? Not eat and starve or get up from the bed and get food
@@cristhiancamarena9534 sorry, can’t ignore reality. Many unbelievers like to play pretend that their is no meaning but we know that is false. Humans need meaning to survive. It is in our DNA. Without it we know what happens. They commit suicide .
@@onestepaway3232 and what's meaning? You are misunderstanding the point of our argument, its not whether people would be better or not with a porpuse, but whether that porpuse is empirical and set on stone as an objective truth, which isn't, you set your own meaning and that makes it subjective, and objectively, they dont exist outside of your own reality.
@@cristhiancamarena9534 lol, so you admit then that non material meaning exist? I don’t care how you want to classify it. Meaning has nothing to do with biology all I’m saying.
Of course, life could be 'meaningless', but still we can put our own 'meaning' to our lives.
Some writer said "Meaning of life is to find meaning in life."
Why find meaning tho if it's all meaningless? Why does meaninglessness make you so uncomfortable as a human? If it IS all ultimately meaningless, then you're never gonna find actual meaning to fulfill you no matter how much you delude yourself into thinking it's meaningful. You can't make something that doesn't exist. You can only make a simulation of it or a fantasy. It's all a cope.
@@smokingcrab2290 I agree
Susan comes from the perspective that we dont have free will. Body is like a machine. It will do what is programmed for.
Suneesh Susakaran ....Body is like a machine,but we do have autonomy as far as our bodies are concerned!!!....The Fact that you may be feeling sleepy at 3 AM but still struggling to stay awake to complete a research article shows you are not purely at the whims of bodily urges!!!....One can conjecture that it is another bodily tendency to prioritize delayed gratification over instant one,and it's just the body orchestrating things for its future survival or development!!!....But that's debatable as sometimes we do fight our bodily urges to take actions that don't benefit us in any way,say wake up at 5AM to feed a street dog !!!.....
@@constipatedbowels3473 The thought that you need to fight this gratification is not chosen by you. Science has proven that even for a simple task of raising your hand, the brain has already decided it before you are concious of it.
@@ssudhak2 Yes,I am well aware of the illusion of Free will!!!........Every thought that you have and the reaction you are going to have is already getting orchestrated by your body!!!........But on a utilitarian level,how does this knowledge help you???.....Here is what you are either misunderstanding or rationalizing about the notion of free will vs conscious decision making!!!....
We do have the capacity of employing conscious decision making,regardless of the fact that the entire premise of decision making is preordained by the brain!!!......Example,If I am experiencing a sexual urge,I have the option of indulging in it or not indulging in it!!!....
This temptation or primal urge arises from The ID,and the available choices as "to do or not to do" are constructed by my SuperEgo depending on what social,cultural,religious,scientific content it has been exposed to!!!...Finally the Ego has the agency to make that choice !!!......
@@constipatedbowels3473 Yes but is there a ego or a passenger inside my body who can make these choice. Spirituality and science says there is no "I". Brain creates an illusion of Selfhood. Its a hard fact to digest. We are simply at the mercy of our neurons over which we dont have any control. Only mystery is conciousness and how it emerges but conciousness cannot act. It can only be a witness.
@@ssudhak2 The knowledge of No-self doesn't bring any radical changes in preexisting "self",as It is the "self" that still continues to extrapolate utility from the information of NOSELF,for the things it desires(PEACE,CLARITY,BLISS or whatever else)....
For example,Your "self" is trying to assert the facts of NOSELF and FREEWILL to win this argument by getting your point across!!!....
So even we are arguing about SELF vs NOSELF,we are using our "selves" to communicate the idea!!!...when you say it is a hard fact to digest, it's your "Self" which is trying to digest the facts of its illusory construct!!!!....
Self being a nuero-anatomically constructed illusion is just a cold scientific fact ,but it is not a value system to live Life by and certainly not a format for conscious decision making that we face in day to day Life.....!!!...
I love educated people who have convinced themselves of something by living in an echo chamber. I don't think anyone has ever questioned her about this topic.
Her students align their thoughts with her like most modern pseudo-intellectuals adopt the philosophy of "my last five bookisms"
Sounds like just about every public intellectual we have at the moment. Thomas Sowell made a similar remark, about individuals like Noam Chomsky.
Being an intellectual in one field doesn't mean you are in all others, and yet so many people assume this and lend an ear to people like Chomsky on say, his political views - which are absolute trash. Outside of linguistics, the man is out of his depth but because he is an intellectual and is fawned over by those who share his echochamber...well.
Funny. JP's followers live in the original echo chamber. The echoing halls of thinly disguised conservatism, where we attempt to rarely look critically at history, and are incapable of favorably interpreting change as a good thing, while shellacking the whole thing with skillful rhetoric and a charming orator. Then 1/2 of us are unable to admit or recognise that we are right wing.
@@noah5291 The followers look at history. But they don't read the Leftist 20 book list--re-reading American interventionism and Chomsky, et al., over and over and over and over again. Solidifying into memory the fine details of our past sins as a type of self-flagellation and self-reinforcing their identity obsession and hatred of competition-based capitalism.
@@ejw1234 Not looking at and understanding the ugly parts of history because it makes you feel bad is just being a coward basically. The reason it hurts their feelings is because they have been indoctrinated since birth. 95% of them haven't read any critical perspective. Willingly walk into suffering if it's guaranteed to make you better, carry the heaviest weight that you can. It's not self flagellation to accept challenge to become better.
Although i dont agree with her, I do respect her patience with how she handles this discussion. Much better than most women Jordan Peterson debates with.
That’s my takeaway also. She’s very open and composed.
She s very intelligent.
The point is that,beyond words, s still in the dual point of view like all the people of the world.
Peterson is beyond that. Doesnt believe. He knows. He s like a guru. He has the higher view ,his perspective is different from the human view.
Jordan is not human. or , is the human .
Once you hold the truth u are compassionate towards everybody else cause they re still missing , they still deaf in some way. U re correcting everyone. U no longer belong to others. U sacrifice yourself, for see everything and help in a exclusive way
He has such a gift given by God, it’s amazing beyond words! And I’m sure he is aware of it, I love how he is so straightforward and to the point!
You are fooled😅
What a stupid comment!!!!
@@reynaldoflores7124 Are you serious? If you don't believe in God, it's then your own problem, so please, let people talk about their beliefs...
@@Jeff.Paborada look in the mirror bro, Jesus Christ Is King & will come back. And you will stand before him when you die, now you have no excuse.. been had no excuse, you see life and the things created. I’m praying for you man, God be w you. 🤍
@Just Chillin' this is a very big question, it's not easy to say God exists or not, you need a lot of work, a really hard working. For me I believe in God the creator of the universe, It began for me more clear than ABCs
Great debate. Being able to have such debate shows that we are an intelligent creature that lives in a complex society built from 200k yrs of human history. We can all live a meaningful life in unity peace and harmony.
Great comment 👍🏿
good comment .
200k? Hardly.
She wouldn't be sitting here to have a conversation if life is meaningless. Life is only meaningless when you're dead, it is meaningful when you give it meaning by living the hell out of it, but life is purposeless at all ends.
Life is meaningless when we're dead? Says who? Why is it meaningless?
@@philosopher0076 was your life meaningful when you weren't born? LOL
She's talking about objectively. And she's right. Her having this conversation stems from a subjective "meaning" of life. Not an objective one.
"it is meaningful when you give it meaning by living the hell out of it" is an objective truth claim. If it's not, and just your opinion, then it has no relevance to anyone.
Her meaning is the self flattery that "she knows lots", otherwise she wouldn't spend her time trying to teach others and discuss/debate with JP. She's a big bag of wind.
How on earth could it ever be a "very positive way of living" to accept total meaninglessness....?
Living with that idea is living on the edge of self destruction and suicide! Even I as a christian feel meaningless at many times, but if I wasn't a christian, I surely would have believed in that meaningless feeling and gone through with it.
Hope is the only thing that gives me comfort in this broken world...but to accept meaninglessness would be to give up on the idea of true love and God and then where could I ever find any hope whatsoever?
Amen! Humility is the key to all learning. Her brand of nihilistic certainty is a form of intellectual blindness.
@Elizabeth Bennett
Indeed so it is! In every way possible, we need the bread that sustains the life within! Without God, I am nothing.
@@xMCxVSxARBITERx Without God you are nothing? I bet my house that none of you have ever even heard "God" speak. You don't know what he looks like, sounds like, smells like and he has never said a thing to any of you
@@frankvandermerwe1487
What you say is true, I have never heard from Him or seen Him, yet He remains to be the source of life so without Him none of what we see or know would exist. Does that make sense?
One day, though, we shall all see Him! But for now, as Paul states, we may see like in a mirror, dimly, the truth of Him.
@Elizabeth Bennett What you say is physically quite illogical, but spiritually quite sound.
Quite often, people cannot understand things outside of their experience. This is understandable, but too often they don't have sufficient imagination (or bravery?) to venture beyond their small knowledge footprint.
Atheists will sometimes ask, "What created God?" as if that somehow thrashes belief in a Source cause for physical reality. One man accused me of "special pleading" logical fallacy after I had told him that God is non-dichotomous or "paramita" (perfected) Cause. Some people have a hard time imagining a place where there is no scarcity or lack -- conditions that only exist in the physical half of reality.
References:
*_The Logical Christian_* (hardcover, Lulu [dot] com)
*_Proof of God_*
*_The Science of Miracles_*
*_The Bible's Hidden Wisdom_*
I'm a simple man. No, really. When someone presents an idea which, if I myself employed it, it would make my life worse, I distance myself from that someone and their idea. I escape what hurts me. Atheism hurt me. Growing up a proud atheist and for at least a decade thinking I was in the right, I eventually discovered I was in a well of thought that obsessed me with unimportant details of life. I thought pride in deliberate distancing from religion, spirituality and ethics was one of my virtues. And it wasn't until a took a step back and saw what I was doing to myself that I stopped and started to fill my life with things with more substance. "Atheist" is a label void of substance. It's merely an obsession with the unknown that can drive someone to accept upon themselves such a thing.
Same❤️ I was so stupid, i felt like i was invincible and kept hurting other people’s feelings and beliefs. God humbled me so much.
Please get rid of the mediator and let them have a conversation.
She convinced me that HER life is meaningless.
don't mind me.. just here to enjoy a calm,civil discussion from two very different positions . this. this is what we need more of. just because someone says "well I don't agree with that at all" does NOT mean they're attacking you and an invitation to just completely lose your mind.
One thing I found is that it's very hard to convince people of something, people tend to believe what they want to believe and even if that belief is proven wrong, 9 out of 10 people will ignore that and will find some justifyication for still believing in what they believe...
This is true, convince someone is really difficult. Even harder especially if you talk to denial and egoistic person.
Life is meaningless without God, so she might be partly right
"God" is ancient fiction. A Harry Potter story written in middle ages.
It's as meaningless as saying life is meaningless without Harry Potter
@@jim409 well so, let me say it I believe that life is meaningless consider this many thousands of years later the earth ended along with all the species. Everything the years of research, philosophy, biology all of that is finished now what was the point of it then. So, in my conclusion subjectively life has meaning I mean why would we live then but objective there is not meaning. Tell me if am wrong and why you think I am wrong, yes please. I have no one with whom I can have this kind of discussion
That’s not true. I’m an atheist but don’t believe life is meaningless. My life is full of meaning, but it’s the meaning I decide to give it. For me life has an intrensic meaning, and not an extrensix meaning. Life for me now has MORE meaning to me than it did when I believed in an extrensic meaning.
I’m just highlighting this because atheists can be very different and she is some kind of nihilist besides being an atheist. I am not a nihilist.
Anne Woudstra : I think you nailed it ! May not be the only way, but it seems to be the most effective that we know of (regardless of denomination)
But then again there is no life without god!♥️
Her worldview is so contradictory and unfulfilling if one really thinks about what she is trying to communicate. She overthinks the simple and underthinks the more complex. She advocates for a religion of nothingness complete with its doctrines and proselytes. She sure does spend a lot of time attempting to create an argument with enough substance and MEANING to convey her point that life is otherwise meaningless. The critic of air attempting to convince their opponent of air's nonexistence.
“Nothing matters, everything meaningless “ type of dudes are always contradicted of themselves with themselves...
The glass of water sits on that table is meaningless then, why did she drinks it if it meaningless? Thirst? Meaningless argument.
Yes.
Yeah nihilism is a difficult topic because it assumes there is no meaning, just like religion assumes there is. Only the non living or the unexisting can be truly nihilistic. And only those that exist can be the opposite.
But if we look from a different perspective, then in the end we are all doomed to be non existent. At least the physical concept of us. Then are we to-be nihilistic?
@@vladimirputin8285 your comment is meaningless, nothing in your comment matter ~
@@blitzcank9482 yeah, that's our of context. If course in a few million years when humanity dies my comment won't make any sense because there will be no one to try to understand.
Your comment states that my comment of nihilism don't make sense. It's different if you think about it.
Violence is the only thing that has meaning.
What Blackmore is saying is, according to her beliefs, there is not inherent meaning in life. She is not saying that there cannot be meaning in life. We create meaning for ourselves and participate in meaning for others.
"That's what these atheist types do - act out a religious structure and criticize it". Spot on Mr. Peterson!
Drivel like that makes no sense at all and communicates nothing but a very stupid claim with no factual basis whatsoever. Even the term "religious structure" is bullshit created by Peterson in order to pussyfoot around another stupid claim of his he got his stupid ass handed for by Matt Dillahunty.
Man was around before religion. So if anything religious structure stole mans basic moral structure, since that’s really all religious structure is. Don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t cheat on your wife. That’s all common sense
what's that religious structure?
@@hans-joachimbierwirth4727 You sound like an awful person. I doubt you have it figured it out.
@@jeffgo5742 The basic man moral structure predated religion was to survive winter and produce offspring, there is little to no morality in the primitive mind. Why dont you educated yourself better?
Susan is such a warm and joyful being! She is one of the Greats of atheism/skepticism and she is a female role model for myself.
Honestly this is nice to see. I’ve never been formerly diagnosed with depression although I have had similar symptoms with it. As someone who is honestly feeling a lot better now. Just know that it isn’t a lie we tell ourselves. It’s what meaning we as people put into our lives that is true. Wether god is real or isn’t. Wether we believe there isn’t one or that it’s beyond our comprehension.
It is the truth that we put meaning in our lives with our goals, desires and dreams. If we are nihilistic, we will feel nothing but pain... we gotta hold onto better beliefs, ideas and hopes then that if we as people are ever going to be happy.
At the end of the day. At least when it comes to that moment. We make what we believe to be our reality. Truth is always important and should be first in all manner of things. But in this case. If it involves our moral being and our ability to continue to live and love. The truth in that respect doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if there is god or not. Doesn’t matter if there is anything or nothing. What matters is what we believe.
What we see and hear and choose what is true to us. It is both the miracle and curse of us humans. We have the ability to think beyond our own existences and feel these ways. We may have the parts of us that feel this way and we can question that. But ultimately it is up to us as people to go and feel this certain way... and it is in our capability to change that for the better. Good day.
I have an amazing story. One day I was driving home, when all of a sudden the Lord came to me in spirit. I felt very close to Him. I knew if I asked him to play any song on the radio he would, I guess to bless my faith.
So I said "ok, Lord play "Come as you are by Nirvana".
I turned on the radio and the song started playing right there on the spot, perfectly…
I started getting flooded with chills like a waterfall, crying, and trembling.
He stayed with me for 10 minutes in my driveway. until I got outta the car.
A couple months after that I started getting amazing prayers answered way more often, because it helped me quit doubting when I pray and I was lined up with biblical instructions. It's 6 years later and I still get answered prayers in Jesus name.
Wow. Great story.
So... an atheist is getting a little bit of a treatment that Peterson is getting in most of his interviews... and people are outraged xD
It's not a "zen, Buddhist way" of looking at things - it's a miserable way of looking at things. It drips with misery and self loathing.
While I agree, that also doesn’t really matter
She is doing a structure of meaning, but camouflage it with some misconception of positive nihilism. Jordan hit inmiddely that mark. She falls weaker when she is trying to prove it again after that comment.
Buddhism is miserable.
@@michaelhansen8959 Cade au to her for declaring herself a Nihilist, which you don't see often. However spinning it to be a life philosophy kind of defeats the idea of Nihilism in the first place.
@@Tore_Lund exactly! Have respect for both parties, tho.
Had this argument start with a coworker. He said he's a nihilist. (Claims to be an atheist) . I said no you're not because you constantly talk about how important your family/ job/ being good to each other is. And I said so you're not a nihilist. He responded rather angrily with "oh I guess you can tell me what I believe?!" I almost laughed out loud.. the contradictions are palpable. I only know how bad because I was him once. Stanch atheist with strong moral convictions. Lol talk about cognitive dissonance.
I feel you, those kind of people are just attention seeker for me, said to be nihilist or atheist but they constantly tell you that their lives are meaningful..... Ironic
We're moral because of our brains. I believe religions have only a role in influencing our morality. They didn't create the morality within us. But there're neurological reasons too. Why do you give money to the poor? Because we can empathize with their situation. Why do we feed our families? Because neurologically, we evolved that way and got picked up by natural selection. If religions taught us morality, then how come we even existed as a civilization to create them?
@@haziblathif491 I agree with this point with the caveat that I believe religion provides a shortcut to people that are not willing or able to grapple with the philosophy of moral vs. immoral.
Some aspects of morality are fairly straightforward. For instance, we know it's wrong to commit a cold-blooded, random murder.
On the other hand, other aspects of morality are more nuanced. For instance, I remember listening to Sam Harris talk about wrestling with the morality of truthfulness, which took him a semester at university to reach the same conclusion many religions teach: lying is bad.
@@kolbypatrick1914 Morality has both neurological and social basis. Religion exerts influence from the latter, that can then motivate or supress the former. It's a complex thing. But about lying, it's controversial. There are times when lying is good, like the French Christians who saved Jews from Nazis. It must be appropriate. Lies that affect other people are bad. I can lie to my boss that my coworker failed at his part of the work (when in reality, I was just lazy to do my part), but that's bad. Also, I can lie to my parents that I studied today's portions and I know it's not right, but it doesn't affect anyone.
Your coworker is right. You just don't know what Nihilism is
The funny thing is spreading the meaning of meaninglessness is meaningful in itself
“ The atheist types act out a religious structure and then criticize it.” -brilliant articulation
More JP baloney. It is amazing that he has such cognitive dissonance. But that is what makes him an entertainer.
@@jerrybrown6169 if you dont think atheists replace their religiosity with other belief systems (politics , veganism, humanism) then you are dumb. Everyone does it. It certainly isnt a reflex for people not to think religiously.
@@darklord220 Silly comparison. The thing here is, politics, vegetables and humans are real, whereas gods, fairys and angels are not.
@@mauriciotorresrivera2991 listen man, God is real, so are demons take it from an African man. We do lots of diabolic stuff here bro. I've seen what I'm talking about.
I'll tell one common one, there's a simple ritual that can be done to trace who stole your property (usually in a place like a school where they're a certain number of people) esp. your phone, it works every damn time.
You could even browse through Nigerian net, IG or twitter. If you're interested I could send you the link to two witches fighting while standing on the wall - I kid you not, no cgi, no editing, real life stuff bro.
@@mauriciotorresrivera2991 there are plenty of political beliefs and veganistic beliefs based on false information that are held by their believers anyway. Not a good counter.
So smooth so good at what he does it’s amazing two people having different beliefs An feelings not hate each other An talk it out An both get somewhere.. amazing Mr Peterson .
Not to be a grammar Nazi but 'an' is used when the following word starts with an vowel(a,e,i,o,u) and not a consonant. Have a great day 😀
This man is a genius... I had a hard time following this debate and he gave every answer almost immediately... All genius answer
You have a hard time following, but you still think his answers are genious? That doesnt make any sense…
@@marillion4ever that's a stupid question, It's the same as saying you can't consider Einstein a genius just because you didn't easily understand his theory... It wouldn't be a genius if it was easy... And another thing that you have to know is that I'm Portuguese
Peterson is unhinged. I always thought he was, which resulted in a long battle with drugs. Don't think he is any way profound at all. Just tries to use Word salads to try and sound profound.
@@simonpaterson4596 if you really think that then you missed the meaning of what he said and if you missed the meaning of what he said, I'm sorry to say this but you need help
@@andreisaque3631 You are so ignorant, you hang off his every word which is a bible Thumper like you I suppose.
Get off his NOB for 5 minutes.
Honestly this is such an entertaining duo to watch, Caught myself smiling with each point made and contested
I like to believe that life is subjectively meaningful an objectively meaningless. But at the end, when you believe in something and it actually helps you... All power to you :)
Exactly, you find your own meaning. Doesn't matter that universe is meaningless, you are here, you can experience life and that on its own is enough.
So what Hitler did wasn't objectively wrong? Pedophiles aren't actually wrong?
@@LuisAngel-mu4zv trick question :D but that's why we have moral and your two examples are agreed to be bad by almost everyone/ society. Still it's a subject classification, I mean there are people who find it subjectively good. If not it wouldn't happen. Are we objectively bad for killing a lot of other species, our own and our planet? No, objectively that's just part of life. Things just happen. Only we for us decide what good or bad is. But don't be bothered that objectively it doesn't mean a thing. We all experience it subjectively and there it does matter a lot and we can decide what's the right thing to do.
@@arhael3594 Whatever you say
JP is so insightful that I can't stop listening to him.
The fact she's even having the conversation about something "meaningless" kind of destroys her argument. It's like trying to argue nothing exists with a few case studies
Same for the Freewill debate. If you actually believe in Determinism, then you would never show up to the debate.
@@dahawk8574 Why would that be?
@@arjenbij, say that you are convinced of Determinism. Then you would have no reason to post your question, because absolutely nothing matters. You would just sit there and exist. You would only tend to the stimulus that arose from you internally, and whatever external stimulus happened to impinge upon you. There is nothing to motivate you to turn on your computer, let alone read anything posted here, let alone reply.
A Determined universe is a meaningless universe. All dimensions of space and time collapse down into a single point. A singularity. Like how Peano's Curve is a line which covers every single point in a plane, and can likewise extend to cover every point in a 3-D space, and likewise into a 4-D spacetime. That 4-D spacetime geometry is ABSOLUTELY STATIC, if everything is Determined. Time becomes meaningless. Space becomes meaningless. Everything contracts down to Nihilism. Meaningless. Your existence is meaningless. Posting is meaningless. Going to a debate is meaningless.
It is like racing the Indy 500, but with a train instead of racecars. You give the trophy to the car in that train which crosses the finish line first. Well this will always be the locomotive. On that one-dimensional track, there is no possibility for any car to pass another. It is all determined. The race is pointless.
In a Deterministic universe, it is the Human Race which becomes pointless.
@@dahawk8574 The difference between a deterministic universe and an indeterministic one is not appearant from the actions one takes. Let's say the universe isn't deterministic. People would go about their day making choices and the universe would evolve according to those choices. In a deterministic universe people would still take certain actions and the universe would still evolve according to those actions. The difference being that those actions only appear to be choices but are actually set in stone. The initial conditions of the universe would cause you to take action and to be present at the debate. You are conflating choice into a deterministic universe by saying that knowing the universe is determinstic will cause you to choose to not do certain things. It makes no difference you see.
@@arjenbij, actually it makes all the difference in the world.
Yes, if you are oblivious, then it would make no difference.
But we are discussing the _BELIEF_ a person holds.
If a person is convinced that everything is Deterministic,
then this worldview impacts everything that person does.
And how they do it. If a person subscribes to Determinism,
and they have thought through the full ramifications of this,
then they would also be Nihilistic. (As previously explained.)
I love Jordan Peterson so much! Been watching all of his videos for years now! He's a Canadian National treasure!👏💗
The lady has lost gratitude in her being, the reason why she finds no meaning in everything. She is alive, apparently healthy, has a good paying job, living in a safe first world city/country. All these to her are meaningless. Sad.
True. If she were to be hungry without money, she would go and find something to eat first.
Her lack of meaning in life comes from having too much. Too much security, wealth, too much 'stuff'. If her life involved the struggle for that very life, which thousands worldwide suffer daily, she would not be mentioning meaninglessness.
Jesus Christ you are dense. You are falling for "meaningless" having different meanings, because you possess zero ability to reflect.
Its called Stoicism, the Greeks and Romans used it very effectively and you've completely failed to understand it. From your response I doubt you could.
The atheist breathes as he talks while declaring that there is no air.
and religous fanatics conclude that their is a god who they like to pretend they know what he likes and thinks and what hes doing and when hes coming and going based on nothing but concepts theyv attached to their identitys and 0 evidence or experience with this god. Im not atheist but i am surely anti religion
Um, it's scienfically proven that air exists. Has the existence of you "god" been proven? If so, how?
@@mauriciotorresrivera2991 Through the understanding that metaphysical categories themselves can't exist without some objective, unchanging source. Science itself presupposes a plethora of things which it's own means have no way of proving. A priori reasoning is a powerful tool. If everything is just a product of naturalistic foundations then those things are inherently bound to change. But the value of a number doesn't change, logical laws don't change. These things have to be understood from a meta position as you can't prove the immaterial with empiricism.
@@demaistre2458 science is ongoing and will prove everything in time or maybe never that dosent mean God it means we just don't know yet.....
@@reign2566 You're not getting it, science is a tool, used to understand certain things. Like philosophy is another tool to understand other things. Science is not an overriding force capable of everything, it's not. Again, Science itself presumes mathematical value, logical laws, regularity in nature, induction etc to work. Nothing is a given and Science has no way of proving those things as they are immaterial. No, it doesn't automatically prove God, what metaphysics shows is that there are objective, unchanging things that exist. The universe, which itself is subject to change over time, would be incapable of producing these things as these things are again, unchanging. To expect science to prove God is to expect it to prove why the value of 2 is consistent and unchanging. It has no way of doing so, it's based on sense means and empiricism, but again, not everything exists in those ways. What all of this shows is that something unchanging can't derive from something which is in a constant state of change i.e the universe and everything in it. It doesn't prove one particular God but what it does show is there is an objective, unchanging, immaterial foundation by which these things derive. I'm not making a claim on what that is specifically, other than to say it's primordial and transcendent. I don't see this as some crazy idea. To say otherwise is to claim everything is subjective, which is self contradictory as it's an objective claim. None of this is to degrade science at all, but to show its not some divine source capable of understanding everything, as by its very nature it is incapable
“We are just not creatures who won’t do anything.”
Clearly you’ve never struggled with debilitating depression and suicidal ideation.
Even then you have to eat, excrete and move to avoid muscular atrophy.
Lol
@@keithhunt5328 Why?
Yeah but that's the point, the default state of this body is to do things, to want things to want some sort of stimulation. Depression is like a "force" that sort of numbs those impulses. That's why is so strange if someone says "just stop being sad" it's not like it's a choice you make. Point being that it's all part of the natural world. No special injected human meaning required.
Exactly
That’s a miserable outlook on life from this lady. This is what breeds depression, anxiety, and suicide. World view and application of worthlessness leads to a lack of self efficacy. This lack of morality and self worth is what leads to cultural depression like we are living in now.
Speak for yourself
Religion did not invent morality and humans are not the only creatures that exhibit moral and immoral behavior. The evidence for a supreme and invisible being has never been proven. The burden is on the believer to prove their theory - and their current "evidence" is woefully inadequate.
@@kdhsc The op didnt mention religion, God or any other related term though. He never implied that religion invented anything, or that an invisible and supreme being is in any way related to religious dogma.
@@ding9633 It's the truth bro😂😂😂 just because you haven't done it doesn't mean a bunch of people haven't.
Human: to SEE is to BELIEVE but
too SEE God's miracle is to BELIEVE first.
God did not need proof from the future that His creation would work. Spiritual Confidence preceded the miracle of creation. The atheist lacks sufficient humility to learn the flaws of their own critical thinking.
Then how do you know a god made it? You can apply that flawed logic to literally any being and it would mean just as much. If you cannot demonstrate something without already accepting it, then you’re argument is circular and irrational.
Props on Unbelievable for changing the title! I´m very much looking forward for the new upcoming debates and content.
Why is it in poor taste, clickbaity sure.
Naming Dr. Peterson but not Dr. Blackmore, simply writing "atheist" feels quite disrespectful, wouldn´t you agree?
I agree. It suggests "our hero Peterson is up against yet another foe," instead of it being a conversation between Blackmore and Peterson. I also loathe any idiotic "So and so DESTROYS so and so." Jesus.
They've named her in other clips. It's just a way to promote the videos so they're more watched.
I don't think it's disrespectful, but that's very subjective I suppose.
Fair enough. Don´t want to come across as a hater of the content, it´s just that it plays to the clickbait culture, and worse yet, to the "us vs them mentality". I´d very much rather for it to be a fair presentation through and through.
Can you put Susan Blackmore in the title?
No.
That’s meaningless
Nialistic: nothing matters so you can do whatever you want.
Essentialistic: nothing matters until you decide what matters and you do that.
Existencialistic: Everything matters, it is a part of the divine plan. Purpose, you play a part in the vast universe. You do what your faith tells you to do.
I can't help but laugh at the click-bait title; but I guess it's par for the course for youtube.
Granted I just saw this one clip, but my first reaction is that her argument here seems deeply flawed and takes a lot for granted.
For someone who believes the universe is meaningless, she has a lot of hope in the human condition to live. I believe I live in a universe of meaning and I still struggle to find the will to get out of bed. You think we will just continue living in the face of meaninglessness is quite a bold proclamation.
The point is that life is meaningless in the sense that the world could be wiped out tomorrow by a meteor and the universe wouldn't care. It's nihilism, for sure, but it doesn't have to be a depressing philosophy to have. I started reading up on Emil Cioran last Xmas and had a lot in common with him, he suffered from depression though and after writing a book about how life sucks his own mother said "if I had known he'd be this miserable, I would've had an abortion". Quite a ghastly thing to hear, but for him this was a positive, as he realized that if his life is a mistake and meaningless than it doesn't matter what he does and is free to pursue happiness wherever he can find it. If you find meaning in helping the unfortunate or watching your favorite TV show every day at 6 pm it doesn't matter, just try to enjoy life.
As for the human condition of living, we do have a very strong sense of self preservation, even if it doesn't matter if we live or die most people don't have it in them to just lay down and die. Most if not all people who commit suicide have clinical depression, an actual illness, it's not normal. So, most people are gonna want to keep living regardless if they believe that life holds a higher meaning or not, and most people want to live comfortably which pushes us to get an education and then work for the rest of our lives to get some enjoyment out of it. Which is fine, you never know when you're going to randomly get smeared over the road by a truck or get cancer. Doesn't matter, have fun.
@@crazycat690 "My life was a mistake" Honestly sounds like a copout for not trying. I think it is something like this from C.S. Lewis, "Though who seek truth will find pain and suffering and by the end could find some happiness in it. Those to pursue happiness will find neither truth nor happiness." (I do not know if he made the quote if he was quoting someone else) When I think about what is "fun" Or "Makes me happy" I am left with an aching a hole of hollowness inside of me that torments me at night for the day I have wasted.
I beilive in a God becuase I can't belive in anything else, The best moments of joy and forfilment I have felt come from acting out the prinicles of chist in my everyday then trying to fill the iconography of being a "Good" Chistian. Not to say I am a good chistain but that the ulteratives only seem to end is mersy to me.
Universe is meaningless. Doesn't mean our experiences are. You can still enjoy your life, create goals, have admissions. Whatever gives kicks to your personality.
@@MaryJayProductions I hadn't seen you actually replied to my comment, and I think you misunderstood the point. He didn't mean that his life was a mistake in the way that it shouldn't have happened or something more that, well that it was random, like his mom didn't make him on purpose. Calling it a mistake is perhaps the wrong word for it but I don't believe it's a bad thing (just like he did, hence why the realization actually made him happier, still suffered from chronic depression though!).
Like, if your parents didn't mean to make you, if there was no God that made you with a purpose, it doesn't matter if you're seeking out personal happiness rather than trying to live up to what your parents wants for you or live in a way to avoid a God punishing you in the afterlife. Drink alcohol, have sex before marriage, make money from having an onlyfans, draw caricatures of religious prophets, pursue an acting job, work a lowly job, whatever makes you happy. If your parents are disappointed and can't be happy for what makes you happy, screw them, and if someone tells you God doesn't like it if you have sex with someone of the same gender or when you eat shrimp (look it up) then definitely tell them to screw off.
For that matter, doesn't really matter if you do decide to go the religious route. If that works for you, knock yourself out, doesn't matter! Personally, I've always found the whole thing to be off putting, I've heard from religious people that I'm gonna burn in hell for my life choices, among them being simply being an atheist, so no thanks. I chose to live a kind and loving life because I want to, don't need a holy book for that, definitely don't need one for all the degenerate behaviors that I greatly enjoy.
"Life is meaningless but I'm going to conduct myself, my behavior, as though that's not true, and get upset when someone says I'm living out a religious thinking."
Peterson is correct. Atheists live out religious behaviors and lives while attacking those who are honest enough to say they're doing the same.
Atheists would call someone who is living out a set of beliefs they can't prove as a religious thinker. Expect when they do it, they're too clever to succumb to that, so it's something more nuanced.