tf2, but it’s MvM - normal tf2 with upgrades, canteens & med shield: who's best? what's the meta?
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- Опубліковано 25 гру 2022
- Music: BananaSlug ( / user-426347780 )
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[ hud / crosshairs / hitsound / killsound / gfx cfg ]
big thanks to:
Mikusch for their plugin github.com/Mikusch/MannVsMann
Doomy for misc plugin help
Gold, 5225225, Hoste & SURVEY RESPONDERS for scripting help
FAQ:
Q: How did you make that? What editing software do you use?
A: I use Adobe Photoshop, Premiere Pro & After Effects. Photoshop for image editing and thumbnails. Premiere Pro for compositing and After Effects for motion graphics (the fancy animations). - Ігри
The fact that engineer became the most dominant class and forced the game to revolve around helping or harming them rationalizes Graymann's use of sentry busters
I’m not sure that you could get close without a quick fix Uber because of the knockback. Maybe the unlikely teaming up of Spy + Pyro or a Cow Mangle charged shot to help get in close.
But yeah I wanted to see a max speed Uber canteen Pyro going ham in this video.
@@DoABarrelRol1l in mvm busters have low knockback from sentries
It's funny that Uncle Dane, Engie Main Man, helped clue me in to how Engie is just a stall class and him being too powerful kind of ruins the game, and here we are.
You'd be wrong, even without sentry busters the sheer amount of robots a sentry has to face in MVM can quickly obliterate it, even with everything upgraded to max
@@theshermantanker7043 words of someone who has zero tours
>walks up
>places 1000 hp sentry
>does not elaborate further
>wins game
>gets brown
>falls on ground
>refuses to elaborate further
>leaves
we do a little trolling
that was literally me in the video on swiftwater lol
Spy with red tape recoder can screw u up
>walks up
>places 1000 hp sentry
>Dragon's furry pyro who spams uber canteens comes out of nowhere
>Dies and gets his sentry destroyed
So you're saying that if you implemented Mann vs Machine into the main game, the main game would become Mann vs Machine?
Hol’ up…that actually is what happens.
More emphasis on the Mann than on the Machine would be ideal.
More like Mann & Machine vs Mann & Machine
No it would become Mann vs Mann
fr
you just turned the game into Overwatch, shooting at shields and tanks
lol i thought the same thing
exactly what i was thinking
Overwatch wishes it was as fun as mvm in normal gameplay
Gladly got fixed in Overwatch 2
canteen == ultimates
mvm upgrades == MOBA upgrades/equipment (paladins too)
evil tf2 tbh
Everyone hates the Red tape recorder, until Engineer places a 2500 HP Sentry, suddenly the Red Tape Recorder is the Strongest
Impossible
The BLU Army and their engineers
Seek to destroy our pl_pier
But even then, from Upward to Process
The Red Tape Recorder is the Strongest!
@@TheodoresTomfooleries i see what you did there.
Is there a BLU tape recorder?
BLU still wont use it since its red
"You never knew how much important the slow animation of building a Engineer Building was until it was gone"
Just use the Jag and Rescue Ranger to never see them again
@@FieryBlazer9 The Jag makes the building faster but it is not insta
On this game mode the Jag might even be a downgrade because you can just make the Stock Wrench attack faster while still being able to remove sappers in 2 hits
This was the most fun thing in TF2 I've done in quite some time, the amount of bullshittery and chaos was hilarious. I do still think that the gas passer had a lot more of an effect on the meta than you gave it credit for as it essentially filtered out all of the more useless classes and forced everyone to play around avoiding get gas passed (and also the fact that it ignored medic shield and could instantly take down a shielding medic). Engineer definitely had the world in his hands with this one though.
so in other words, The Gas Passer is The Great Filter.
I imagine Pyro in general was very helpful to counter Medic shields too, since flames go straight through
Gas passser def seemed to be the big threat that kept Heavies from just spamming down nests in droves with a pocket each and pyros to keep the stabby boys away
Yes. As a medic, i felt the ease with which you could get medic picks with it was extremely powerful. Normally in the game, a medic has a lot more ability to control how much damage they take through positioning and surfing, but with the ass passer, you would often just die moments after the pyro appears on your screen. One counter was that you could invest in uber canteens, as you would generally have time between getting the gas passer effect applied and being burnt. Not a lot, but enough to activate the canteen and save yourself.
Yeah, it can be easy to overlook how much the mere threat of something can affect a situation. Even if it doesn't end up getting actively used that much, it still forces the opponent to pick strategies that can avoid it or work well against it.
The funny part about this is, even with no robots, this still ends up as Mann Vs Machine because Engi's buildings are machines.
New 10th class: Sentry Buster.
@@kevinbui6895 Give the civilian the ability to place and denotate C4
Mann vs Machine vs Mann
@@Johnnyupside New class: Taliban suicide bomber on a wheelchair.
@@kevinbui6895no,pay to unleash a sentry buster with the cash you earn
I would love to play a balanced version of this mode.
Yeah engineer would have to be really nerf(like his upgrade costing more or/and have sentry busters), then again there stuff like demoknight that would dominated.
If you want a game based around shooting at shields and tanks with too much health Overwatch exists
@@padacuw4722 OW2 fixed that
One could argue Mann-power's kinda like that
Now add man power.
At the end of the day, you can take the Mann Vs Machine mechanics out of the MvM, but you can't take the MvM out of the Mann Vs Machine mechanics. Gonna need a sentry buster for this meta.
Just remove insta building redeploy. Oh, then demoknight would unstoppable become meta
imagine every minute you get a demo spawn that is player controllable sentry buster, would be hella fun
@@jermasus yea, interesting
Give the caber an upgrade that insta kills sentries and you’re good to go
@@jermasus would be cool, except the engie has the rescue ranger (or he can just move it)
For it to be _true_ MvM you should have also stacked revives into this, so that Medic could actually hold a candle to the level of Engineer Gaming happening here.
He did the revives on their own sometime back! I think that video inspired this one honestly.
So if it wasn’t in this game then I believe it was done so purposefully since that was already tested.
@@DoABarrelRol1l thats still dumb since it wasnt tested with this
Especially since he noted in his other video that revives made people group up, and a lot of the upgrades in MvM hinged on players being grouped up
I actually was already checking out this plug-in to play with my friends and some things to note: the plug-in already has convars to change the damage of the gas passer and medic shield. I asked the developer if he could implement this for explosive headshots and also an option to disable instant building placement because I already knew the meta would revolve around engineer with that. The developer agreed and said he will implement it whenever he updates next. When that is no idea.
soon™
@@Mikusch_ :)
@@hellsredeemer fr tho this looks so interesting, I wonder if that demo weapon that spams lots of stickies would be good into sentries(sorry I have not played in a long ass time)
@@d4s0n282 The Scottish Resistance.
Keep us updated, I wanna play Mann vs Mann with ya too!
Valve should add Mann VS Mann as an alt gamemode. This looks sick as fuck.
Check Bounty Mode in TF2 and TCRF wikies. They tried.
Stop that tank is better
A tf2 pve gamemode where the mercenaries are on the offensive rather than the defensive.
They could be fighting a paramilitary faction called "the brotherhood of arms" after the scrapped "team fortress 2: brotherhood of arms"
Players would be able to get a different set of upgrades focused more on offense, available from upgrade stations in the junctions between different sections of the map.
A version called uber upgrades exist. What few servers had it, went to hell
@@UpgradedHumanCyberneticsI play a bunch of UberUpgrades servers, and they often devolve into Soldier blast radius spam meta
I had this idea in my mind for months now. Glad to see it being real.
It’s basically Uberupgrades
Interestingly, in a similar scenario done by acetheocarinamaker on a workshop map that enabled upgrades and canteens (but not insta redeploy afaik) on dustbowl, a demo knight meta of all things developed, due to the lack of melee resist allowing essentially anyone to be oneshot by a kitted out knight, resistance to regular weaponry and even air blast, a charge or Uber canteens to cleanse gas, and 100 health on kill.
Perhaps they simply didn’t try using level 3s seriously, but it’s an interesting alternate end state to the experiment
So ether sci -fi trench warfare or renaissance/1400s-1500s warfare.
The thing is his gameplay was very misleading. Not intentionally.
When players hard countered him via Pyro, Soldier, and Sniper he actually pulled out the Uber Canteen.
You can see most players did not have one and were buying them mid-lobby.
He accidentally created a P2W situation for people without Canteens. Leave or die.
I'm unsure too, but it seems like the Pyro, Soldier, and possibly even Sniper were asked not to abuse their stuns/air blast against Ace or they were just terrible players. Long story short it was a terrible environment for actual metas since from the current videos we have only seen the meta growing but not settling.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Since when do you have to pay for Canteens? Don't you get them for free? Cause if not then I'm confused how I got mine then.
Ace played on a different version of this mod. In his version, the only way to make money is to get kills, so if you sat in the 2fort intel room as Engi you won't get any money until someone walks into your Sentry. So while Engi might have the better late-game, getting there was another problem. Meanwhile Boots/pipe + Tide + Half-Zato + Crit-on-kills means you kill someone, you can kill the entire enemy team. Kill team, earn lot's of money, buy lots of upgrades, and bam, you got Alchemist from Dota 2. Demoknight wasn't strong because it's upgrades were potent, but because he can get lots of net worth and just crush everyone else with it.
Meanwhile, Shounic's version of the mod someone picks up money, everyone get's money, so even if you get zero kills, as long as your team is doing well, you still get money for upgrades.
tl:dr Ace's version, one person snowballs out of control. Shounic's version, the team snowballs out of control. Dota 2/League of Legends vs. Heroes of the Storm, Base vs. Growth. Strong get's stronger by killing, weak get's strong by existing.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 my dude you can craft a canteen for like 2 reclaimed or get one for free after playing ONE MISSION of bootcamp, fuck outta here with that p2w
So, moral of the story: the wrangler is (as we all already knew) completely busted.
true dadd
No lol, it is only broken in context of MvM upgrades.
In normal tf2 it is balanced.
@@madkirby823 99% of the player base would disagree. I main engineer and I think it’s overpowered.
@@Geebanger0 It is good for 2 things only. Stalling ubers and saving sentry from spam out of sentry range.
So basically hard defense scenarios. Wrangler is more often than not a noob trap, leaving engineer defenseless.
If it is so op, where are all the clips of it owning the match? That one single sigafoo clip before 3 nerfs 12 years ago?
@@madkirby823 a weapon isn't defined as overpowered because it's capable of singlehandedly winning a match, and to say that just shows how distorted your view of the games balance is. The wrangler is overpowered because it can increase your sentry guns effective health and damage at no downside. It's not a noob trap, and it doesn't leave the engineer defenceless since he can use his (now much stronger) sentry to deal with any enemy of his choice.
Last time I seen this, it was people going demoknight to get through the resistances everyone has but sentries being a show stopping makes perfect sense.
I remember accidentally joining a community server like this once and being insanely confused
One of Uncletopia's servers did this a while back and it was so confusing. I think it was gone the next day.
UberUpgrades?
Upgradable players game mode sounds amazing. But it have to be balanced. I would definitely like to see theres servers. But with nefed engineers. Or with a restriction on players, on certain classes
My brother in Christ, just play Paladins
@@All4Tanuki I forgot about that game. But hey at least it's not battle born
Just buff the Caber to do an inordinate amount's of damage to buildings. Or really just make Sentry busters a thing.
Just remove the Wrangler
@@All4Tanuki thanks, but im not a fan of p2w casino
Now I really want to see what effect removing instant redeploy would have on the meta.
Engie would still be busted because of canteens and the Jag- he can still yolo in and plop a Lv.3 down instantly for 50 credits. The Jag redeploys a Lv.3 in around 5.3 sec- it’ll still be up with a good amount of health even if you kill the engie by the time it’s done redeploying
Red would just win every time.
Or just make sappers work normally with no cooldown
@@Skullhawk13 The sappers are normal, buildings just have more health now which means it takes longer to destroy
@@echononame491 Sappers have a cooldown in MVM and this game mode. Don’t go correcting people when you’re wrong. I’m aware of how sappers work, But evidently you aren’t.
Today, kids, we're gonna learn why it is difficult to do mvm without an engie
It's even more difficult without a medic in higher difficulties.
*in two cities, on maps not built for the shield it's fine!
Dang, it's almost as if the Sentry Buster was added for a reasin...
Weird they didn't consider making Sentries less strongful.
Although they dont really pose a challenge to any engie whos not braindead and helps the team with free ubers
@@jermasus it's not about destroying a sentry, it's to disrupt their camping position by forcing the engie to pick up their sentry and get in the way of possible enemy fire.
@@luigifan4585Also makes em more vulnerable if using the rescue ranger due to it's mark for death
Valve used to actually care about balance in mvm
oh i have wanted to see something like this for so long
thank you shounic
This is basically Uber Upgrades. If anyone doesn't know, Uber Upgrades is a custom gamemode for community servers that would allow you to upgrade pretty much anything about a class, and to a very high extent. You could upgrade speed, jump height, air control, damage, weapon speed/reload, ammo, and all kinds of crazy stuff. I don't know if there are any servers still around that actually run the gamemode, let alone any ones that are still populated.
There are still servers, but yeah, not commonly populated.
somebody needs to host this gamemode on a community server permanently, this is so good
I was thinking a weekly rotation of funny game modes.
-this
-medic revives
-maybe a classic 10x
-normal but no 12v12 cap / half time respawn
-balanced version of this
Etc would be pretty fun. Assuming you put in a an hour a day I think the novelty would wear off in a week or so.
Über upgrades
I love it when Gaben said "I'm machining" and then machined all over the place
xd!!!!!!!!!!
I've always wondered about this concept. It's sick that you actually went out and did it
Y'all remember the Halloween game mode with the giants?
What if instead of a giant, your team had a class limit of 1 Engineer?
Obviously there'd be a lot of fighting over who goes Engineer... but people kinda did that with the giants.
And also you could make Engineers move 50% slower, to kinda make them like Civilians.
would love to see what a comp team in this gamemode could do
Die because those suckers do t use spy or engineer
would basically abuse the three strongest classes with their upgrades to an insane, coordinated degree
overwatch
After implementing Left 4 Dead in the game, TF2 players decided to implement Overwatch.
Now combine this with the mode where any class can use any weapon.
And combine those with the mode that removes the overheal limit
@@brisloviayt829 And combine it with x10, x50, x1000, x2000, x,10,000
This is such a cool experiment and the results are actually incredibly interesting. Thank you for making this.
ocarina did something like this, the meta on their server seemed to be demo knight, because it bypasses basically all resistances from upgrades and other sources, gain so many resistances from shields and upgrades, can get crits on kill, charges, and everything else a demo knight has going
If my memory is correct, which it probably isn’t, the sentry buster was added to MVM because engineer was too powerful, and that is something
It amazing how munch of tf2 balance is highly influence by engineer(or sniper)
That's back when valve actually cared about balancing MvM, see also: giant knockback resistance (fucked up by jungle inferno), widowmaker not giving metal from tanks (also fucked up, but not sure if that's from jungle inferno).
I can’t believe Gabe said, “It’s machin’ time,” and machin’d all over my screen. Truly one of the videos of all time.
not funni.
this joke has been run into the ground so much it is in the earth's core now
@@GunSpyEnthusiast Funni license revoked 😔
@@imawesomererthanyou no its on the surface.
it drilled from one side to the other.
Holy shit I’m featured in a shounic video!!! (as the rat infestation engineer with the Christmas hat)
It was probably the most fun 6 hours of TF2 I’ve had in many years. Thank you for running this experiment...
timestamp?
@@antonikudlicki1100 1:25-1:40 (that's mah sentry), 2:30-2:39 (when shounic literally made the "rat infestation" comment), and I think the one at 4:30 was mine too though the engineer's not shown so I'm not sure.
I just gotta say, I love these types of “what if” videos that people mod into the game. Thank you.
These videos where he changes the game in cool ways are by far my favourite, it’s fun to guess what the meta will be
Mordecai needs HUGS
This really makes me think of terran vs terran i starcraft, a meta made of three things, an overpowering defense that can slow push unstoppably across the map and win the game(siege tanks), that thing's counters(medivacs, liberators) and the counter's counters that get blasted by the defense(marines, vikings)
Have you ever seen the AI matches in Brood War? The AIs dont care about game time so it becomes a trench warfare of siege tanks + spidermines where each side slowly sweeps across the map
this was a lot of fun to take part in, i still insist that the gas passer was brutal, but i mostly was playing quickfix medic so i kept dying to it all the time
so now its mann vs mann
That's how plugin is called
@jessemathis9212 nah,that's just regular MvM but with engineers.
On second thought it would be Mann & Machine vs Machine
I think the dev commentary gag in this video is one of my favourites so far
I dunno about 'uncle dane's wet dream'- Dane's actually suggested the Wrangler needs to be nerfed, and the engineer needs to be balanced.
good point
his wet dream insofar as he's an engineer and he likes winning
I've been waiting for this for so long... wonderful.
i love how you explain code and stuff and experiment, i lov it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! love your content
I always felt like this is what Mannpower shoulda been
Overwatch but in the 1960s?
The fix for this is to let people spawn as sentry busters. Even if the engi packs up the sentry you could still blow up the dispenser which is far more important to keeping a nest up and a team stocked.
That sounds cool, but make it take the PDA 1 or PDA 2 slot (the engi and Spy ones) to spawn one
@@Aaa-vp6ug The way the joinblu mod does it is when a sentry buster would spawn it picks a respawning player and has them play for that life as a sentry buster.
I’ve wanted to see this for so long
I have been waiting so long for this to be tested and I am pleasantly surprised
TF2 but with MVM upgrades meme play:
Play Pyro with the gas passer, have a friendly spy disguise as you (while you had the scorch shot equipped, after he disguised as you, you swap to the meme passer), throw the meme passer into a choke point, let your spy drop off a ledge and take fall damage to fake his death to drop you the scorch shot, spam it until the passer is full again. And if that doesn't work? Well I dunno. I never really use the gas passer for obvious reasons.
Gas passer doesn't start charged
@@TheTdw2000 Soooo. . . If you were to spam pick up with the Scorch Shot and the Gas Passer it wouldn't work? Oh well. guess that meme is out of the window for now.
I really liked when Gaben said "STAND BACK ROBIN, I'M GONNA MACHINE"
I was waiting for this whole my life since i aquired knowlege about MvM updgades
I HAVE ALWAYS WANTED TO SEE THIS
who could've thought that the only way to make spy more viable than sniper was to buff his movement speed to 133% and give him 75% resistances
me
new enforcer buff: gives you light speed and 75% resistance to all sources (its balanced because it has no random crits)
I mean, speed is 100% a major reason for Spy's current struggles. It generally takes too long for Spy to make plays, meanwhile a class like Sniper can get picks the second an enemy enters his line of sight.
(well also, medic's uber shield does significantly nerf snipers bc you can extend beyond cover to overheal a lot easier AND block off a lot of targets)
@@trainershade1937 If a Spy could make plays that fast there would be 0 counter play. It would be like having an invisible sniper that could be anywhere or that ally.
It isn't so much Spy is weak but neither Spy nor Sniper work in FPS games well.
Making fights 1-sided is not how PvP should work.
It was very nice to participate in this experience,I was the spy with kunai,it was amazing to play with an incredible speed and high jump,but thanks for the experience !!
That's so interesting, man!
I've always wanted to see this done
It's a bit disappointing that you didn't remove the insta-deploy and conduct a second test session. It would certainly make the game less engineer-centric if the 500 HP sentry took as long to set up as a regular one
This is how the gaspasser should always be
Forgotten?
That would be fun as hell
You should make server like this on regular schedule
this looks really fun actually
I had a feeling The Wrangler would be involved when you mentioned the Engineer. It’s super duper busted in regular TF2 and MvM. Having it in a combined game mode wouldn’t change that, especially since buildings take no critical damage.
i love how this is treated as a science experiment
This was an awesome video thank you
At last, the question I have been asking myself since MvM came out, answered!
Now combine this with the "everyone can use every weapon" thing before as well as maybe your other experiments like the sniper laser
Normally what I found was that Enforcer spy and demoknight are insane with upgrades, albeit slow to start. Enforcer since you can't resist its damage, and demoknight for the same reason. Demoknight was stronger damage-wise but riskier since slows and stuns hurt much more.
I always wanted to try this with regular games, send us vods too, Shounic!
Damn,awesome idea
"TF2 barrier meta doesn't exist, it can't hurt you."
Overwatch's double shield meta all over again
Is the server still up?? This looks super fun
This looks very chaotic and very fun
i love it when he said "its machinin time" and machined all over the place
How prevalant was the backup on soldier, and what were the meta weapons in general
It was explode on Ignite Pyro, projectile shield medic, and engineer with the wrangler.
Backup was basically useless because you couldn't burst down the sentry fast enough before it kills you, even with the added resistances from the banner and upgrades.
And Explode on Ignite and the projectile shield damage pierces all resistances
@@luigifan4585 backup would probably be a lot more important for the crit immunity rather than sentry resistance considering the ease of access to crit canteens
@@TheTdw2000 It still saw very little use because Explode on Ignite instantly kills you
@@luigifan4585 does fire resistance not work on the gas passer? Even still, with an overheal and the buff active I think you can tank an explode on ignite unless it just bypasses all damage entirely.
oh my god i want this so much, nerfing the engineer and playtesting to find a new balance would make this into a killer gamemode
This sounds perfect for 50v50, I would love to try something that chaotic, the other classes whould also have a place
Really long time of stock sapper actually seems to be an advantage. If you clear out engie and his team from position and then sap his sentry, you're practically makes him useless for some time, since engie have to wait, until it gets destroyed, he's unable to use destruction pda. This might also bring up a niche subclass of "spy-pybro", how i call them, with Pyro, equipped by Homewrecker and Jetpack, making his way to sapped sentry
Guessing that the homewrecker was a good melee for pyro
You'd think that, but then you'd be trying to melee a sentry. This aint your average pub, and these aint your average sentries. One health upgrade already evens out the damage bonus you get.
If you meant for helping your own engies, then yeah. It works.
@@InsightReasoning was thinking about both for the homewrecker. I guess the +25 damage increases and uber canteens aren’t enough. Probably still good at destroying teleporters
I love the part where gaben said: "I'm machining". And machines all over the place.
That would actually make for a really fun Custom Game Mode if a Bit off balance was applied! It would be so cool using all these interesting Upgrades in conjunction with and against other Players. There could maybe even be custom Upgrades for Weapons that got the short end of the stick
There is a reason why - in workshop - shield generator is a primary weapon replacement for the Heavy.
Also looks like MvM Gas Passer would not be too good in regular game, except the single target damage. Maybe its the buff that it needs
Maybe a wild idea, but what if similar to getting random crits ingame (kritzkrieg effect), you could get random Ubers (stock medigun), random full heals (quickfix) and random resistances as well? (vaccinator effects)
Hey shounic, I was wondering how do I get to participate in these events? I've joined your server and chosen the roles but I have not gotten pinged about this at all.
The server where he gives notifis about experiments is a completely different one you have to been in
@@luigifan4585 do you have to be a patreon? If so then that's sad
really interesting!
This is awesome.
I have a suggestion for a future experiment: Everything can headshot. Pistol, force of nature, smg, all spy revolvers, sentry guns, cleaver, etc.
Did anyone try using the Homewrecker with max attack speed in this experiment?
How much would the meta change if the Medic's shield actually damaged buildings?
chip damage, not much
If you're close enough to damage the sentry with the shield it's going to shoot you
Also you could just get sniped by the huntsman or burned by a pyro
I'm upset that I didn't see this until it was too late. I've wanted something like this for a very long time.
it looks fun ngl
First comment now nobody will notice im gay
@Ariel 🗿
loved when the engineer said "It's engineering time" and engineered all over the enemy team
I love 1:19 where the engineers deploy their sentries like it's a pokemon battle
a map with this concept apperd 9n the work shop recently and is very fun
My favorite part was when outro Gaben said "it's machinin' time" and machined all over the MvM players
*"Uncle Dane's Wet Dream"* must be the most accurate and funny description you could think of...
I want to try this mode. Looks like a ton of fun!
thank you so much for it being a 15 for the whole team
Been playing with the Uberupgrade plugin for a while but this looks closer to the original mvm mode
There was a mod called "Uber Upgrades" that did something similar, I remember spending lots of time playing it but the servers are mostly dead
although i got bodied 24/7 by sentries in this experiment as scout, it was hella fun to play, i look forward to future experiments
Makes sense that the most OP options (explosive headshots, demo stickies, gas passer) are useless in this because A) no grouping up, B) smarter enemies, and C) Less enemies