I've basically spent the last three days of my life working on this video but I think it was worth my time. I hope it was worth yours as well! 😁 Thanks for watching -Marc
your vids are good bro! someones probably tried i guess but seems to me if you could incorporate defensive statistics in some way into the formula and make it better at rating 2 way players then PER could potentially be that holy grail of analytics
One thing though, its a misconception that triangle is iso heavy. Its an equal opportunity offense that requires ball movement to truly be effective. Ask Shaq, ask Kobe, ask mike and scottie. The reason it worked is because everyone reads the defense the same way and the ball is always moved to the next person based on it. Sure, there were concepts used more than others, like setups where it was jordan with a big(or even scottie) on one side and the other 3 on the opposite. But the ball didnt stay in anyones hands UNLESS they needed a clutch shot late, or someone was at a clear disadvantage. Thats why jordan went from getting triple doubles whenever to 5-7 assists on average. The ball moves around too much for one person to accumulate assists unless someone is being doubled. Jordan/scottie kobe/shaq/gasol were focal points but they werent calling isolation plays. The only reason the triangle didnt work in ny is because melo wouldnt buy in...
Yea definitely agree with that, triangle preaches cutting. Jordan, Shaq and Kobe are gonna isolate/ post up a shit tons of time on whatever offense they play.
i take it a bit deeper ...so im out of europe(play basketball about 13years now)and havnt watch the nba for a decate...last season i watched(before this season) i.a. was still in his prime i watch a lot of basketball youtubers in the last year... found you about a week ago and watched almost every video since you upload and i really enjoy watching it it brings me the nba alot closer and you go really deep into stuf and love you take it clean (without dramatic music or conspirasy theorys) so you take yourself a lot of time to upload stuff and i really apreciate it so i thought i take myself some time to let you know oh allmost forget your outro music is lit...and love your video endings
Any type of basketball analytic cannot be looked at in a vacuum. For example, the PER stat always frowns upon pure scorers who don't contribute much in other categories, but it doesn't take into account that pure scorers can benefit a championship team like Kyrie on the cavs
That's true to a certain degree, although across my research I didn't come across evidence that proved PER was biased against "pure scorers." I will say that a player like Kyrie does not fair particularly well in PER and that PER does not take into consideration the value of Kyrie's late game shot making ability.
Good point! What is your opinion on a guy like Klay Thompson only having like a 17 PER, while still shooting well over 40% from three with an overall good field goal percentage. On offense Klay Thompson is more of a pure scorer, and he was the number two guy on the historical 73 win Warriors team. I know it doesn't factor defense but how can the second best player on the best team ever have only a slightly above average PER?
Yeah, I think it's because 1) Klay Thompson averaged only 2.1 ast and 3.8 rebs and 2) only averaged 0.8 stls and 0.6 blks, even though we all he's a muuuuuuch better defender than that would suggest.
The thing about Klay is that he's just not a stat stuffer, so he tends not to perform well when evaluated by any metrics. I think it's really the intangibles that make him good.
I found this channel yesterday and I just want to say I actually like it. Your videos are not very long yet you explain quite well chosen topics in a good, precise way... Keep up the good work! ;)
I appreciate how much effort you put in to your videos. It's clear you are constantly learning and don't act like you know everything. Everyone should strive to do that, especially content creators. I am always looking for new NBA based youtube channels, and right now you are gaining ground in to my top 3 pretty quickly. I subbed a few days ago and look forward to more content. Cliffs: keep it up : )
I love your videos man! It's nice to listen to somebody who really does their homework and put effort into their videos. Thanks for your hard work, it turned out great.
Wow this is crazy in depth, and really enlightened me to how flawed PER could be. Also, kudos for citing your sources, haven't really seen that on other NBA YT'ers videos. I hope you see future UA-cam success.
I think there should be a stat that emphasizes an opponent's team's possession that ends in a turnover, foul or miss that isn't a block or a steal or an offensive stat that dictates the conversion of a fast break to a score by the players responsible on THAT possession. "Forced bad shot" (Failure to convert) , "Forced opposing player turnovers" (Sack)as well as a stat that shows "allowed putbacks" to better translate defensive player contributions.
In the mid-late 80s Dave Heeren had a formula called TENDEX which was a sort of PER forerunner, but it didn't catch on. It was similar to PER in that it was a good quick-and-dirty look at a player's overall worth. Heeren's books are probably still available on Amazon and worth the $4 a piece to obtain. My favorite Q/D stat is WS/48. Anyway, nice channel.
Your right dude, no way Javale Mcgee deserves to be 13th. He obviously deserves 1st. Also he deserves DPOY, MVP, and MIP, but for real great video man.
Your videos are good! I've watched a few and was very surprised that you don't have (a lot) more subscribers. Then I noticed you only started this channel a few months ago. Well, great job so far! I've now subscribed and I'm sure many many others will too. Keep up the good work!
PER underrates defence and overrates rebounds, and favours big players. Yet MJ being one of the best defensive player and not a big man has the 2nd highest PER in NBA history, behind Wilt.
Per also can be an interesting predictor of breakout candidates. Yes they may play against lower competition or not be a 1 or 2 option while in the game but can illustrate a player's value if the minutes were extrapolated. It may not always occur but with any metric it is not observed without a grain of salt. Good scouting as well and discussions on philosophy and understanding matter to playing efficient basketball.
PREACH! You need to talk to 538 sports. You have a future in statistical analysis. You could help with the CARMELO algorithm and create new advanced stats. Seriously, you're a beast. This is completely on point.
Most folks say PER is outdated, I believe it is actually misused. It ranks player efficiency not necessarily the best player. If players have different roles they may eventually have similar PER, but the player with lower PER can be the most skilled if we are comparing a highly efficient role player to a not very efficient star player. PER isn't taking into account player impact on defense like altered shots and things like that so the value of this stat is showing how efficient one player is rather than showing the best player or the player with the greatest overall impact in the game.
Great video! No idea how I’ve missed your UA-cam page before but I’m definitely subscribing. The biggest problem I have with PER is how in the world can Westbrook lead the league in PER with his turnovers so high and FG% so low.
great vid im a stat junkie myself and i have always thought that per was off thank you for giving me evidence and im actually working on a stat metric to replace it
MDJ - great stuff you are producing. Very analytical, in depth and insightful. I hope you can do a video exposing Skip Bayless for his nonsensical, illogical arguments. I’m sure you will find a lot of materials and that will make great entertainment, and attracting more subscribers for your channel.
Ok a big oversight you are making about how to apply PER and when. For instance the reason Minutes is important as a factor is to help compare Apples to Apples. It's like the Oakland A's Moneyball and others. You need to understand that the players on the bench in the NBA are still the best in the World. So they would all post 20 ppg or 10 assists or 15 rebounds under the optimal conditions. The only diffence other than a slight athletic, motivational drive, or intelligence advantage separates bench players from starters. But sometimes it is just Coaching style, defensive matchups and health reasons limiting a talented players minutes in game. But what doesn't change is their efficiency and skill sets. So there are famously amazing bench players and are even considered all stars and sometimes do start during the season and even receive awards like 6th Man of the Year, Finals MVP(Andre Iguadala) , and Defensive Player of the Year and so on. So looking at a PER can tell me a Shooting Guard coming off the bench for 5 minutes before Halftime, who has to guard James Harden, is similarly skilled as the Beard at least enough to hold onto our lead. Those Steals and Blocks are important if they remove a Top Scorer in a matchup forcing the opposition to move the ball to a secondary scoring option etc. THERE are tons of "Bench" players on certain teams that would be starters on other teams. but have more success playing in the supporting roles than as the marquee players. Ron Harper was an amazing PG/SG who posted 20+ppg before going to the Bulls for a 3peat. As a Bulls he put up 7ppg or so off the bench and sometimes starting. The change meant he wasn't a top scoring option but he did have performances that he was an offensive key role in games. Like Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, they had a bench of awesome players to back up Jordan and Pippen. Like the Warriors now have a bench like Javale Mcgee, Andre Iguadala, Nick Young, Matt Barnes, who have started for other teams before. And Draymond Green and Klay Thompson would be bench players behind others on different teams. They both are no comparisons to Lebron, Melo. I think PER puts perspective on players in the minute by minute situationals but like you I agree that value can't be expanded to all NBA comparisons. But if I was comparing players who play 10 minutes to each other and 40 minutes to each other and Position to Position then that number correlates much more understandably and reasonably works. Who would use it to match Jordan on Lebron anyway? No Coach would do that for a game? Lebron is a 6'8" Power Wingman Small Forward and Jordan was a 6'6" Point Shooting Guard. There would be some attempts in game situations for post advantage Lebron height and weight against Jordan but Jordan would destroy him on retort with his undefendable fadeaway. But defensively Jordan played perimeter for onball steals and playing pass lanes for steals, his blocks would be on double teams or defensive assists when needed from behind and Lebron gets trailing blocks on fastbreak layups from behind. Anyway the differences you pointed out of role on the court changes rebounds and so forth making Jordan and Lebron incomparably possible with PER. But Jordan and Kobe is more valid. Again.some different factors in that are Kobe played alongside a dominant Center Shaq and Jordan with a Shooting Wingman Small Forward Pippen who was more similar to Jordan. Meaning the market share on similar statistics impede on Jordan while Kobe has his zone and role dominance during his entire tenure. Except Shaq would have eaten up Rebounds and Blocks but so would have Rodman and Horace Grant for Jordan and again their Shooting Guard perimeter role doesn't need to dominate the Paint anyway. Those are my points love the channel.
Like all stats, PER isn't perfect but it's a nice offhand way to compare players and see how good they are or aren't. Same thing goes for: wins above replacement (baseball), and passer rating (football). Should one number be the end all, be all of a player? Heck no. But that doesn't mean people aren't going to try.
so boys after you watch this, remember PER is ONE of many measurement in basketball stats, it can be used as analytical means but also had it flaws it summarize the player productivity no more no less dont overlook it but also dont exagerrate it P.S. good job MDJ, liked the video awesome man !
eg13000 Considering it's a complex formula that attempts to boil down all stats into one number.....its kind of a ranking. The problem I have with PER is that it's called "player efficiency rating" when it doesn't really measure efficiency, especially since it tries to include defensive stats, and fails. It should be called "offensive effectiveness rating" or something.
Fact: PER is very good OFFENSIVE measurement of player production per minutes on floor...but its true that is not ideal, just like any other catch it all metrics it has its own flaws. it slightly overrated Big men and hugely overrate bench players (since they go against trash competition) and fail to catch defensive impact... So best way to get better picture is to use composite of most relevant advanced metrics like PER, RPM, BPM, WS/48...if player rates highly in all of them then its obviously for a reason, like Jokic for example, since December when Jokic moved to center position and was given free reins to run offense Nuggets went over .600 (with Jokic, he missed few games due to minor injuries) Nuggets were NBA leading offense for rest of the season -better then 4 All-Stars, already historically high GSW offense-and they managed that without single All-Star player on the roster, not even Jokic (was snubbed for All-Star, All-NBA, MIP, even freaking Assist of the year).. Jokic led NBA in advanced metrics in that span playing 30+min/g
FINALLY somebody gets it. His problems in the video was with people’s inability to accurately decipher what PER means, not the stat, itself. Some dummy saying “____ has a higher PER so he’s better” isn’t a flaw in the PER stat, it’s a flaw in that person’s thought process.
Hey, just found this channel recently and I love it already! I can tell you put lots of effort into these videos! Not sure if you take suggestions, but do you think you can make a video about the incredible NBA comeback that literally NO ONE talks about? It was a game on November 25th, 1977 between the Hawks and Bucks. Hawks were leading by 29 points with about 9 minutes left in the 4th quarter, but the Bucks ended the game on a 35-4 run to win 117-115. This is the greatest 4th quarter in NBA history, and quite possibly the greatest NBA comeback period; while a few teams have comeback from over 30 points down, their comebacks started much earlier in the game. It's more comparable to the Clippers comeback vs. the Grizzlies a few years ago in the playoffs, but add about 10 more points the Clippers needed to come back from. Yet, I literally cannot find ANY information about this game aside from the box score and a few articles mentioning the game but without any background information. If you can make a video talking about the comeback with as much information as you can find about it, that would be awesome, because I feel like not enough people talk about it and more information needs to be found out about it. Thank you!
Great video, keep up the work! But I have one question: PER takes into account steals. How can you measure Wilt Chamberlain’s PER if steals only started to be recorded in the mid 70s?
Great video, learned a lot. Seen a few of your videos and they have all been good. Keep up the good work man, you got a new subscriber here. I'd like to know what stat you think works better then PER as general sinlge metric to value a player. Or if you even think there is one yet. I know WAR for baseball has come along way for rating defensive players, hopefully the same thing can happen for PER.
+Jeff Porchina yea absolutely, I'll be making more videos talking about nba stats... As of right now, I don't think there's a metric that can measure a player in a vacuum. Win shares is very good for comparing players within a team, and PER is decent at comparing players with similar positions and similar play styles. I need to dig into VORP and box plusminus a little more
It's an efficiency stat. Not a player ranking stat. It favors bigs due to the amount of close shots they take. If we were able to add true shooting percentage into it, we would see a closer comparable metric. Trying to compare defensive stats is much more difficult as team and individual defense comes into play.
PER. Is like similar to a pitcher in Baseball's ERA. Yeah its a huge indicator. But game by game it varies. So PER is blank until stats are assessed. No stats no PER
I get that y'all like this dude and I love his videos too, but y'all gotta quit putting down other youtubers like Mike Korzemba and Chris Smoove to emphasize how good his channel is. The disrespect to those you tubers is strong in this comment section. Just enjoy him and stop putting down others to uplift him. PS MDJ congrats on 27k
I don't get why people think defensive stats are so horrible to measure. Just add up a metric of: [oFG% + S/48 + B/48] Divided by Standard Deviation of League Pace There, I just solved 60 years of defensive value.
How can Westbrook lead the league in PER (player EFFICIENCY rating) shooting 42%FG and 33%3PT, with 5.5 turnovers... I mean, it is supposed to measure efficiency, and Westbrook is anything but efficient. PER is trash, and people should stop using as an argument to say that a player is better than other. Just pathetic stat.
Rick Grimes the efficiency here did not mean FG%,3p%, FT% etc etc but it count the player PRODUCTIVITY VS other player with the given minutes means, that westbrook is more efficient to be given minutes rather than other player with lower PER.. which is a very easy method to conclude who's best at that position there is a lot more advanced stats like usage rate (touches), true shooting (all shot % combined with different weight), assist/TO, rebound perc and bunch more if you want a lot more clearer picture about the players game but the conclusion is, westbrook production is huge on his team and high PER simply can conclude that this player is a great/good/average/bad it's the player efficiency for the TEAM not the player efficiency on his plays exp : westbrook shoot only 40% but have impact in all facets trip-dub every game with 40 mins VS a player that shoot 70% of his shot but only make 15 point and no other stats in 40 mins both play at same position which is more efficient for the team to start? westbrook or that other player?
Yeah the Efficiency in PER is misleading. It doesn't measure conventional efficiency like with FG%, FT% etc. What it really measures is the efficiency of how quickly you are able to acquire stats in a short amount of time. Basically, it's "how much you get done per minute" as opposed to "how efficient you were in that minute". That's why high volume/usage players perform so well.
efficiency in the sense of how efficient you are in every aspect of getting stats. How efficient you are getting rebounds, how efficient you are scoring points, how efficient you are getting assists, how efficient you are getting blocks, how efficient you are getting steals. Put that all together and you get PER player EFFICIENCY rating. A stat that captured the best seasons of all time. but at the end of the day it's just a stat, not a ranking system
being bad on free throws doesn't make u overrated. wilt, and shaq are both one of the best players of all time but bad free throws, Drummond didn't make the all star game. Then how is he overrated
Honestly Drummond doesn't even put up that many points at a low efficiency. The past season he put 13ish points but only shot 53% from the field, compared to the likes of say Deandre Jordan a similar player in the sense they have very limited range, he's at least shooting a ridiculous 70% from the field while putting up 12 points and is a much better defensive presence. I don't understand why people think Drummond is an all star when he literally can only rebound well...
My NBA 2k20 mobile center addressed almost everything. 50/40/90 player on offense, terrible rebounder, but still gets 5 per game, ridiculous steal average and a terrible shot blocker for his size as well. But really: A PER of over 62?
Whilst there ARE legitimate criticisms of Per, (like the ones you mentioned) I think it's assumed that most people talking about per understand thesem no one's going around seriously making a case for javale being the sixth man of the year off his per alone, but among similar players etc. it can be a very useful tool to compare. Also, I know no one that uses JUST this stat alone lol no one's gonna make a whole argument just based off per. Again, appreciate you (somewhat) acknowledge its positives but this seems to paint it in an overall negative light, per still absolutely has its place in basketball and is a legitimate stat imo, you just have to understand context
I've basically spent the last three days of my life working on this video but I think it was worth my time. I hope it was worth yours as well! 😁 Thanks for watching
-Marc
MDJ great video
great video! does PER include championships and FG% or just points, rebounds, steals, etc
Owen Guest no it doesent
Owen Guest my man said championships
your vids are good bro!
someones probably tried i guess but seems to me if you could incorporate defensive statistics in some way into the formula and make it better at rating 2 way players then PER could potentially be that holy grail of analytics
this guy is literally the beyond science of basketball🤣🤣
he's just really, really, Asian
Aiken Yao and he talks like him lol
He's really really asian, but he's also good. But "beyond science"? I don't know what that even means.
Lmao
your PER rising by the day bro
keep up the good vids
Not possible. He's in a league of his own, which means that his PER will always be the average.
1:37 Ahead of the curve on Jokic
underrated channel!
bruh u need million of subs as per ua content !
good job!
lol I have no idea who basketball examined is... everything in this video came from the articles I read in the description
MDJ bro! dont justify yourself to these haters..
just continue putting up great content!
love from Nagaland!
One thing though, its a misconception that triangle is iso heavy. Its an equal opportunity offense that requires ball movement to truly be effective. Ask Shaq, ask Kobe, ask mike and scottie. The reason it worked is because everyone reads the defense the same way and the ball is always moved to the next person based on it. Sure, there were concepts used more than others, like setups where it was jordan with a big(or even scottie) on one side and the other 3 on the opposite. But the ball didnt stay in anyones hands UNLESS they needed a clutch shot late, or someone was at a clear disadvantage. Thats why jordan went from getting triple doubles whenever to 5-7 assists on average. The ball moves around too much for one person to accumulate assists unless someone is being doubled. Jordan/scottie kobe/shaq/gasol were focal points but they werent calling isolation plays. The only reason the triangle didnt work in ny is because melo wouldnt buy in...
Yea definitely agree with that, triangle preaches cutting.
Jordan, Shaq and Kobe are gonna isolate/ post up a shit tons of time on whatever offense they play.
MDJ chilling in 3017 while the rest of basketball UA-cam is here in 2017
hahahaha
great video bro.... analytics vs the eye test should be 50/50
i take it a bit deeper ...so im out of europe(play basketball about 13years now)and havnt watch the nba for a decate...last season i watched(before this season) i.a. was still in his prime
i watch a lot of basketball youtubers in the last year...
found you about a week ago and watched almost every video since you upload and i really enjoy watching it
it brings me the nba alot closer and you go really deep into stuf and love you take it clean (without dramatic music or conspirasy theorys)
so you take yourself a lot of time to upload stuff and i really apreciate it so i thought i take myself some time to let you know
oh allmost forget your outro music is lit...and love your video endings
thanks man
GCT Gaming Do you mean a.i. No i. a. If not who are you referring to
Allen iverson
Oh shit yeah i see it now ^^ my bad
GCT Gaming oh okay I thought soo
Any type of basketball analytic cannot be looked at in a vacuum. For example, the PER stat always frowns upon pure scorers who don't contribute much in other categories, but it doesn't take into account that pure scorers can benefit a championship team like Kyrie on the cavs
That's true to a certain degree, although across my research I didn't come across evidence that proved PER was biased against "pure scorers." I will say that a player like Kyrie does not fair particularly well in PER and that PER does not take into consideration the value of Kyrie's late game shot making ability.
Good point! What is your opinion on a guy like Klay Thompson only having like a 17 PER, while still shooting well over 40% from three with an overall good field goal percentage. On offense Klay Thompson is more of a pure scorer, and he was the number two guy on the historical 73 win Warriors team. I know it doesn't factor defense but how can the second best player on the best team ever have only a slightly above average PER?
You are my new favorite UA-camr by the way, nobody else goes into so much detail on the NBA :)
Yeah, I think it's because 1) Klay Thompson averaged only 2.1 ast and 3.8 rebs and 2) only averaged 0.8 stls and 0.6 blks, even though we all he's a muuuuuuch better defender than that would suggest.
The thing about Klay is that he's just not a stat stuffer, so he tends not to perform well when evaluated by any metrics. I think it's really the intangibles that make him good.
I personally think ankle breakers should be a stat but not in the 5 major statisticle categories
ALL I EVER WANTED WAS A ROLLY ROLLY not for professional basketball, for street ball yea
"the guy cant hit a god damn freethrow to save his life" 😂😂
I found this channel yesterday and I just want to say I actually like it. Your videos are not very long yet you explain quite well chosen topics in a good, precise way... Keep up the good work! ;)
+MarcMuntada thank you!
I like how you still don't have adds! Thanks and keep up the good work!
This was an amazingly well researched vid with great understandable info, this is a great channel bro keep it up 👍
this is the Mike korzemba who actually knows how to press the upload button
I'm willing to bet this guy is a huge Kobe fan. Kobe fans hate advanced analytics.
Dude, you just became my newest favorite UA-cam channel about basketball. Keep up the amazing content!
+wu jimmy thanks! 🙌
I appreciate how much effort you put in to your videos. It's clear you are constantly learning and don't act like you know everything. Everyone should strive to do that, especially content creators. I am always looking for new NBA based youtube channels, and right now you are gaining ground in to my top 3 pretty quickly. I subbed a few days ago and look forward to more content.
Cliffs: keep it up : )
I love your videos man! It's nice to listen to somebody who really does their homework and put effort into their videos. Thanks for your hard work, it turned out great.
I know what Hate Efficiency is - and Oscar Robertson came in at 94% believe it or not
what is that
Wow this is crazy in depth, and really enlightened me to how flawed PER could be. Also, kudos for citing your sources, haven't really seen that on other NBA YT'ers videos. I hope you see future UA-cam success.
+SGTWolfmann thank you, appreciate the support
Im here ever since 10k just proof to say ive been here since cuz ik my man be reaching a mil soon
Wade 3 nobody gives a shit
yea? ive been here since 24k!!! im sooo cool!!
Daniel 1 lol i agree this dude is an idiot but u didnt need to write a fucking essay with emojis in it bro
Zafir Uzoma lol yeah ikr
I love you for making this video. I don't think anybody else could have made this
Steals are not overrated, steals are forcing turnovers which we all know the worst thing an offence can do.
This channel has the potential to reach 1 million subs. Keep grinding bro!
this channel is incredibly underrated
I think there should be a stat that emphasizes an opponent's team's possession that ends in a turnover, foul or miss that isn't a block or a steal or an offensive stat that dictates the conversion of a fast break to a score by the players responsible on THAT possession. "Forced bad shot" (Failure to convert) , "Forced opposing player turnovers" (Sack)as well as a stat that shows "allowed putbacks" to better translate defensive player contributions.
Adrian Arshad this is a good idea!
Adrian Arshad Dean Oliver already did that. Read his book basketball on paper.
Just discovered your channel and went through some of your videos. Real quality content. You should be more popular. I've subscribed.
In the mid-late 80s Dave Heeren had a formula called TENDEX which was a sort of PER forerunner, but it didn't catch on. It was similar to PER in that it was a good quick-and-dirty look at a player's overall worth. Heeren's books are probably still available on Amazon and worth the $4 a piece to obtain. My favorite Q/D stat is WS/48.
Anyway, nice channel.
new to the channel, surprisingly pleased. one of the few not shitty bball channels.
Your right dude, no way Javale Mcgee deserves to be 13th. He obviously deserves 1st. Also he deserves DPOY, MVP, and MIP, but for real great video man.
Your channel is heavily underated. keep up the good work!
Your videos are good! I've watched a few and was very surprised that you don't have (a lot) more subscribers. Then I noticed you only started this channel a few months ago. Well, great job so far! I've now subscribed and I'm sure many many others will too. Keep up the good work!
+Aylwin Cal ty man!!!
I just found you yesterday, and I've binged watched ur entire channel! Your my new favorite UA-camr, keep it up Marc!!!!!
Subscribed. Great video. I will enjoy watching your progression as an editor. Don't forget about the quality! Good luck MDJ
MDJ your my favourite basketball youtuber and I watch and liked all your videos im your #1 fan (I hope)
You're so underrated bro! I love your channel
+Andrew White thanks bro!
PER underrates defence and overrates rebounds, and favours big players.
Yet MJ being one of the best defensive player and not a big man has the 2nd highest PER in NBA history, behind Wilt.
MJ is 2cd behind Jokic. Lebron is 3rd , Wilt dropped way down later in his career with low PER's
Love your videos. Their outside of the normal and I like that. Keep up the good work!
Per also can be an interesting predictor of breakout candidates. Yes they may play against lower competition or not be a 1 or 2 option while in the game but can illustrate a player's value if the minutes were extrapolated. It may not always occur but with any metric it is not observed without a grain of salt. Good scouting as well and discussions on philosophy and understanding matter to playing efficient basketball.
Great video!! I've always been confused about this concept... Now I have a clear understanding! Thanks MDJ
PREACH! You need to talk to 538 sports. You have a future in statistical analysis. You could help with the CARMELO algorithm and create new advanced stats. Seriously, you're a beast. This is completely on point.
Watching this video is cool to see how much Jokic grew as it was said he's not a top 10 player. Now he's a 3 time MVP and NBA champion.
you deserve so many more subs, keep it up bro!!!
thanks!
Most folks say PER is outdated, I believe it is actually misused. It ranks player efficiency not necessarily the best player. If players have different roles they may eventually have similar PER, but the player with lower PER can be the most skilled if we are comparing a highly efficient role player to a not very efficient star player. PER isn't taking into account player impact on defense like altered shots and things like that so the value of this stat is showing how efficient one player is rather than showing the best player or the player with the greatest overall impact in the game.
Excellent video. You give sports commentators too much credit. How often does Skip Bayless ever discuss PER or VORP?
I see you reaching a mil subs man! Keep it up!
This is one of the best videos I've ever seen
When they calculated PER and the statistics showed that Jordan was the best player ever. I thought, yeah PER is good
Amazing video, amazing research and presentation! Thanks for sharing it!
I'm working on a more dynamic formula for NBA players rating. It will account for offense and defense and all the other things you mentioned.
Great video! No idea how I’ve missed your UA-cam page before but I’m definitely subscribing.
The biggest problem I have with PER is how in the world can Westbrook lead the league in PER with his turnovers so high and FG% so low.
Damn!
That was a great vid!!
Great work man 👍
I can't imagine what kind of college student this guy is... he puts in work
Good video, great explanation. Only things that physically hurt me were typos @8:00 on both A and B.
It's = it is
Its = possessive
+DINO92AVFC haha my bad
When Lebron had an all time PER to rival it worked
now that he's dipped it doesn't lol
great vid im a stat junkie myself and i have always thought that per was off thank you for giving me evidence and im actually working on a stat metric to replace it
MDJ - great stuff you are producing. Very analytical, in depth and insightful. I hope you can do a video exposing Skip Bayless for his nonsensical, illogical arguments. I’m sure you will find a lot of materials and that will make great entertainment, and attracting more subscribers for your channel.
Please make more videos explaining certain analytic measurements - e.g. difference between TS% and EFG%, etc. Great vid anyways!
you should do a video on the triangle offence
this guys gonna blow up soon I promise
Per vs the eyes test. Lol I'll take the eye test 😂😂
Great video. I would like to see you do a video on your opinion of Win Shares and how they work.
Ok a big oversight you are making about how to apply PER and when. For instance the reason Minutes is important as a factor is to help compare Apples to Apples. It's like the Oakland A's Moneyball and others. You need to understand that the players on the bench in the NBA are still the best in the World. So they would all post 20 ppg or 10 assists or 15 rebounds under the optimal conditions. The only diffence other than a slight athletic, motivational drive, or intelligence advantage separates bench players from starters. But sometimes it is just Coaching style, defensive matchups and health reasons limiting a talented players minutes in game. But what doesn't change is their efficiency and skill sets. So there are famously amazing bench players and are even considered all stars and sometimes do start during the season and even receive awards like 6th Man of the Year, Finals MVP(Andre Iguadala) , and Defensive Player of the Year and so on. So looking at a PER can tell me a Shooting Guard coming off the bench for 5 minutes before Halftime, who has to guard James Harden, is similarly skilled as the Beard at least enough to hold onto our lead. Those Steals and Blocks are important if they remove a Top Scorer in a matchup forcing the opposition to move the ball to a secondary scoring option etc. THERE are tons of "Bench" players on certain teams that would be starters on other teams. but have more success playing in the supporting roles than as the marquee players. Ron Harper was an amazing PG/SG who posted 20+ppg before going to the Bulls for a 3peat. As a Bulls he put up 7ppg or so off the bench and sometimes starting. The change meant he wasn't a top scoring option but he did have performances that he was an offensive key role in games. Like Steve Kerr, Toni Kukoc, they had a bench of awesome players to back up Jordan and Pippen. Like the Warriors now have a bench like Javale Mcgee, Andre Iguadala, Nick Young, Matt Barnes, who have started for other teams before. And Draymond Green and Klay Thompson would be bench players behind others on different teams. They both are no comparisons to Lebron, Melo. I think PER puts perspective on players in the minute by minute situationals but like you I agree that value can't be expanded to all NBA comparisons. But if I was comparing players who play 10 minutes to each other and 40 minutes to each other and Position to Position then that number correlates much more understandably and reasonably works. Who would use it to match Jordan on Lebron anyway? No Coach would do that for a game? Lebron is a 6'8" Power Wingman Small Forward and Jordan was a 6'6" Point Shooting Guard. There would be some attempts in game situations for post advantage Lebron height and weight against Jordan but Jordan would destroy him on retort with his undefendable fadeaway. But defensively Jordan played perimeter for onball steals and playing pass lanes for steals, his blocks would be on double teams or defensive assists when needed from behind and Lebron gets trailing blocks on fastbreak layups from behind. Anyway the differences you pointed out of role on the court changes rebounds and so forth making Jordan and Lebron incomparably possible with PER. But Jordan and Kobe is more valid. Again.some different factors in that are Kobe played alongside a dominant Center Shaq and Jordan with a Shooting Wingman Small Forward Pippen who was more similar to Jordan. Meaning the market share on similar statistics impede on Jordan while Kobe has his zone and role dominance during his entire tenure. Except Shaq would have eaten up Rebounds and Blocks but so would have Rodman and Horace Grant for Jordan and again their Shooting Guard perimeter role doesn't need to dominate the Paint anyway. Those are my points love the channel.
Like all stats, PER isn't perfect but it's a nice offhand way to compare players and see how good they are or aren't. Same thing goes for: wins above replacement (baseball), and passer rating (football). Should one number be the end all, be all of a player? Heck no. But that doesn't mean people aren't going to try.
so boys after you watch this, remember PER is ONE of many measurement in basketball stats, it can be used as analytical means
but also had it flaws
it summarize the player productivity no more no less
dont overlook it but also dont exagerrate it
P.S. good job MDJ, liked the video awesome man !
+Eric Augusto ty!
This dude deserves more subs
PER is a stat not a ranking system
eg13000 Considering it's a complex formula that attempts to boil down all stats into one number.....its kind of a ranking. The problem I have with PER is that it's called "player efficiency rating" when it doesn't really measure efficiency, especially since it tries to include defensive stats, and fails. It should be called "offensive effectiveness rating" or something.
it's a complex formula that attempts to boil down all stats into one stat. Correct. Doesn't mean it's a ranking. It's still ONLY a stat
any stat can be used as a ranking, but it may not be very good at it
Fact: PER is very good OFFENSIVE measurement of player production per minutes on floor...but its true that is not ideal, just like any other catch it all metrics it has its own flaws. it slightly overrated Big men and hugely overrate bench players (since they go against trash competition) and fail to catch defensive impact...
So best way to get better picture is to use composite of most relevant advanced metrics like PER, RPM, BPM, WS/48...if player rates highly in all of them then its obviously for a reason, like Jokic for example, since December when Jokic moved to center position and was given free reins to run offense Nuggets went over .600 (with Jokic, he missed few games due to minor injuries) Nuggets were NBA leading offense for rest of the season -better then 4 All-Stars, already historically high GSW offense-and they managed that without single All-Star player on the roster, not even Jokic (was snubbed for All-Star, All-NBA, MIP, even freaking Assist of the year).. Jokic led NBA in advanced metrics in that span playing 30+min/g
FINALLY somebody gets it. His problems in the video was with people’s inability to accurately decipher what PER means, not the stat, itself. Some dummy saying “____ has a higher PER so he’s better” isn’t a flaw in the PER stat, it’s a flaw in that person’s thought process.
Good video now i understand how per is calculated and what it is.
Hey, just found this channel recently and I love it already! I can tell you put lots of effort into these videos!
Not sure if you take suggestions, but do you think you can make a video about the incredible NBA comeback that literally NO ONE talks about? It was a game on November 25th, 1977 between the Hawks and Bucks. Hawks were leading by 29 points with about 9 minutes left in the 4th quarter, but the Bucks ended the game on a 35-4 run to win 117-115. This is the greatest 4th quarter in NBA history, and quite possibly the greatest NBA comeback period; while a few teams have comeback from over 30 points down, their comebacks started much earlier in the game. It's more comparable to the Clippers comeback vs. the Grizzlies a few years ago in the playoffs, but add about 10 more points the Clippers needed to come back from.
Yet, I literally cannot find ANY information about this game aside from the box score and a few articles mentioning the game but without any background information. If you can make a video talking about the comeback with as much information as you can find about it, that would be awesome, because I feel like not enough people talk about it and more information needs to be found out about it. Thank you!
Hmmm I'll research that and see if it's video-worthy
+MDJ Sounds good, and thank you for replying!
I love this channel. MDJ > Mike Korzemba
Lol the asian mike korzemba. Im in love with this channel. Keep up the good work ✊🏻
-from a fellow asian
That was an absolutely great video!
What in your opinion is the statistic that can measure the players quality the best?
HAHAHA when the camera zoomed into skip's face
Great video, keep up the work!
But I have one question: PER takes into account steals. How can you measure Wilt Chamberlain’s PER if steals only started to be recorded in the mid 70s?
By not counting pre- 1976 players. Most advanced stats dont include those players
you should totally do a Jokic video. Top ten in all per minute Advanced stats
Great video, do you have a background in statistics/analytics?
Great video, learned a lot. Seen a few of your videos and they have all been good. Keep up the good work man, you got a new subscriber here. I'd like to know what stat you think works better then PER as general sinlge metric to value a player. Or if you even think there is one yet. I know WAR for baseball has come along way for rating defensive players, hopefully the same thing can happen for PER.
+Jeff Porchina yea absolutely, I'll be making more videos talking about nba stats... As of right now, I don't think there's a metric that can measure a player in a vacuum. Win shares is very good for comparing players within a team, and PER is decent at comparing players with similar positions and similar play styles. I need to dig into VORP and box plusminus a little more
Do a video on win shares or value over replacement player
It's an efficiency stat. Not a player ranking stat. It favors bigs due to the amount of close shots they take. If we were able to add true shooting percentage into it, we would see a closer comparable metric. Trying to compare defensive stats is much more difficult as team and individual defense comes into play.
Just found your channel keep up the great content
+Harrison Westwell thank you
Nice video. Wondering what the difference between this and analytics?? Is this like the stock market algorithms
PER. Is like similar to a pitcher in Baseball's ERA. Yeah its a huge indicator. But game by game it varies. So PER is blank until stats are assessed. No stats no PER
Thanks for the simple enough explanation!
can you do a break down of the plus minus stat and how it works.
I get that y'all like this dude and I love his videos too, but y'all gotta quit putting down other youtubers like Mike Korzemba and Chris Smoove to emphasize how good his channel is. The disrespect to those you tubers is strong in this comment section. Just enjoy him and stop putting down others to uplift him. PS MDJ congrats on 27k
I don't get why people think defensive stats are so horrible to measure. Just add up a metric of:
[oFG% + S/48 + B/48] Divided by Standard Deviation of League Pace
There, I just solved 60 years of defensive value.
I love your videos man their great
I still haven’t see another to replace it yet. By using P.E.R I could tell most players real prime seasons easily
I guess the argument is that for *certain players,* PER has a difficult time
Can you do another video on other metrics like box plus minus?
Great work.
How can Westbrook lead the league in PER (player EFFICIENCY rating) shooting 42%FG and 33%3PT, with 5.5 turnovers... I mean, it is supposed to measure efficiency, and Westbrook is anything but efficient.
PER is trash, and people should stop using as an argument to say that a player is better than other. Just pathetic stat.
TRIPLE DOUBLE MVP
Rick Grimes
the efficiency here did not mean FG%,3p%, FT% etc etc
but it count the player PRODUCTIVITY VS other player with the given minutes
means, that westbrook is more efficient to be given minutes rather than other player with lower PER..
which is a very easy method to conclude who's best at that position
there is a lot more advanced stats like usage rate (touches), true shooting (all shot % combined with different weight), assist/TO, rebound perc and bunch more if you want a lot more clearer picture about the players game
but the conclusion is, westbrook production is huge on his team
and high PER simply can conclude that this player is a great/good/average/bad
it's the player efficiency for the TEAM not the player efficiency on his plays
exp : westbrook shoot only 40% but have impact in all facets trip-dub every game with 40 mins VS a player that shoot 70% of his shot but only make 15 point and no other stats in 40 mins
both play at same position
which is more efficient for the team to start?
westbrook or that other player?
Yeah the Efficiency in PER is misleading. It doesn't measure conventional efficiency like with FG%, FT% etc. What it really measures is the efficiency of how quickly you are able to acquire stats in a short amount of time. Basically, it's "how much you get done per minute" as opposed to "how efficient you were in that minute". That's why high volume/usage players perform so well.
efficiency in the sense of how efficient you are in every aspect of getting stats. How efficient you are getting rebounds, how efficient you are scoring points, how efficient you are getting assists, how efficient you are getting blocks, how efficient you are getting steals. Put that all together and you get PER player EFFICIENCY rating. A stat that captured the best seasons of all time. but at the end of the day it's just a stat, not a ranking system
Eric Augusto im not talking about PER itself, im talking about the efficiency that really matter
being bad on free throws doesn't make u overrated. wilt, and shaq are both one of the best players of all time but bad free throws, Drummond didn't make the all star game. Then how is he overrated
He's saying that PER overrates Drummond, not that players and coaches overrate Drummond. Just like how PER overrates Javale.
panner11 you can't overrate JaVale. He the goat
Honestly Drummond doesn't even put up that many points at a low efficiency. The past season he put 13ish points but only shot 53% from the field, compared to the likes of say Deandre Jordan a similar player in the sense they have very limited range, he's at least shooting a ridiculous 70% from the field while putting up 12 points and is a much better defensive presence. I don't understand why people think Drummond is an all star when he literally can only rebound well...
So mdj could you give us any stat that takes in account the fg% , 3p% , ft% , n ones , turnovers and points per possession ?
My NBA 2k20 mobile center addressed almost everything. 50/40/90 player on offense, terrible rebounder, but still gets 5 per game, ridiculous steal average and a terrible shot blocker for his size as well. But really: A PER of over 62?
Whilst there ARE legitimate criticisms of Per, (like the ones you mentioned) I think it's assumed that most people talking about per understand thesem no one's going around seriously making a case for javale being the sixth man of the year off his per alone, but among similar players etc. it can be a very useful tool to compare. Also, I know no one that uses JUST this stat alone lol no one's gonna make a whole argument just based off per. Again, appreciate you (somewhat) acknowledge its positives but this seems to paint it in an overall negative light, per still absolutely has its place in basketball and is a legitimate stat imo, you just have to understand context
Watched 3 videos, SUBBED
+Jad Yassine 👊👊👊