Monster of the rails C&O 7,400 HP Allegheny, H8,
Вставка
- Опубліковано 29 вер 2024
- The mighty H8, Allegheny owned by the Chesapeake and Ohio railroad was one of the heaviest and most powerful steam locomotives of all time. With a combined locomotive and tender weight of 1,183,540 pounds, only the Big Boy was slightly heavier. With a staggering driving axle weight of 42 1/2 tons per driver, this locomotive had the heaviest driving axle weight of any locomotive. At nearly 7,500 horsepower this locomotive set a all time record but fell short in tractive effort. There is records of one of these locomotives pulling a 162 car coal train weighing 14,075 tons! Now that's some serious power.
These locomotives ended up being overweight after it was built. Lima weighed the locomotive with no sand in the domes, no boiler insulation, no boiler jacketing, many missing pipes, and various other items to lower the official weight. Later after track started to suffer, C&O had the locomotive re-weighed and found the official weight to be far higher then was was told. C&O sued Lima pretty much into bankruptcy after the court ruled in their favor.
Many consider this locomotive to be the most powerful locomotive of all time. With the high driving axle weight this locomotive, in theory, it should be able to out pull nearly anything. Many historians believe this locomotive never reached it's peak power. Had they increased boiler pressure to 300 PSI there is little doubt this will locomotive would set records all around. The 162 car, 14,075 tons up a slight grade is testimony to this locomotives awesome power.
This locomotive was steamed under it's own power into the Ford museum. It is one of the most complete and well preserved locomotives in the World. It could likely be steamed back up as it sits with few problems. Although many would like to see this engine run again, it is unlikely due to the high axle weight of the locomotive. Even back in the steam era this locomotive was too heavy. There is also a second locomotive preserved in Baltimore. See link below for more information about this locomotive.
www.steamlocom...
www.southernst...
This locomotive is located in Dearborn, Michigan at the Ford museum. More information can be found here. www.thehenryfo...
For a excellent book about the life and history of the Allegheny written by a ex C&O President check out ...The Allegheny - Lima's Finest www.amazon.com...
This is as far as I know, the longest & most complete video tour of this locomotive on UA-cam. I cannot thank you enough for such an awesome video!
You are welcome.
I remember seeing this when I was a little kid. It was back in 2016.
Thanks for another very impressive video. I did not know that the 1601 had survived after retirement and it is very pleasing to know that it has been retained and displayed. This is a superb example of mechanical engineering and you can just imagine what the cab experience would have been like when it was running at speed! Hope to get there one day and see it first hand.
From a mechanics point of view it must have been a mechanical nightmare to work on.
Thank you and well done! This is a video tour that lets sight do its own thing - no drawling commentary on how the locomotive is heavier than 500 double-decker buses (but how heavy is a bus?) or that demonstrates the commentator's limited knowledge. What we see here is what happens when you walk around the exhibit. Lingering here, lingering there, peering at this detail, stepping back for a wider perspective. Great stuff!
It leaves me with a strong awareness that this 2-6-6-6 is an awe-inspiring piece of engineering.
all this effort in designing without CAD or any computer assistance - genius minds at work - both in designing and creation -
I n todays money I wonder what the breakdown in cost would be. Shoot, the accounting cost might top million.
I wonder how many parts are on that locomotive.
We had engineering drawing as a subject and there were draughtsmen to prepare the blueprints.objects were translated according to blue prints. Only cut n paste was not there so any correction was either remake the drawing or add a correction slip. Was a wonderful time and one practiced engineering out of ones mind rather than computer base data. Of course there were data manuals to refer to. In fact all aircrafts were on blueprints also. Drawings were quite accurate so to speak for. Well cad cam has eased everything but only drawback is less of human intervention and any programme is only as good as its programmer
@@robertl.fallin7062 If they had Boeing's management one is sure that the accounting area would be funded better than the engineering area.
@Stuart Aaron close but the C&O allegheny weighed 751830lb as delivered way over The railroads demands of a 725000lb locomotive but it was the the the batch of 10 virginian Allegheny that got lima in trouble that batch weighed 771300lb per locomotive, and note when lima did the weighing they poured led In the boiler and filled the sand domes then weighed the locomotive but when the c&o found out lima had to give half of those Allegheny's away for free of charge.
We took my son to MSU and got to see it up close. Absolutely incredible. The whole museum is awesome.
After seeing UP get a big boy going after so many said it couldn't be done... maybe someone could get one of these going one day. What a sight it would be to see the 1601 and 4014 right next to eachother under steam
Problem is this engine way to heavy why pulled form service
I wish N&W would restore the Y6A #1218. I also wish N&W would’ve kept their Class A 2-6-6-4 running...
@@lazarusmagellan2367 I couldn't agree with you more. Would love to see all the big articulated steam engines running
Yea we could settle the Heaviest argument. And who really can pull the most. BigBoy has the greater TE. Allegheny claims more Hp. Both are Locomotives to be proud of as American Built!
A lot of great and smart men out here that put this trains and others together amazing
I saw the thumbnail and was like i know exactly where that is
Wow! What an incredible and massive piece of machinery! Thanks for showing it.
You should see the other side of the building here.
@@Automcanic Wish I could visit there.
Traveling Tom you did an excellent job filming this thank you
Thank you.
Thank you for the video!
You are welcome.
What a wickedly big monster. Thanks for the detailed video
Now that is huge. What's with all the extra duct work around the pistons and the front? Do they carry steam to the rear pistons?
Both steam and exhaust. This locomotive does not re-use the steam from the back to the front cylinders as some articulated locomotives do. They both have their own steam pipes.
Thanks. I really enjoyed this video. It was like being there when I couldn't. Will check out the rest of your channel
J'ai croisé cette machine lors d'un passage à Detroit en '91. Inoubliable...
Really cool post, very impressive. Thanks for sharing.
Hey Tom, I love the Alleghenys. I'm glad you got to go see it. Where is the museum located? I would love to go see it one day. I hope you get to see many more steam locomotives in the future. Keep up the wonderful content! Best Regards - U.P. 4014
Dearborn, Michigan, a suburb of Detroit. Greenfield Village, right next to the Henry Ford Museum and part of the overall complex, has several operating steam locomotives that convey visitors around the outside of the village. Well worth a visit to both if you're in the area.
If you do go to the Henry Ford Museum in Dearborn MI where this beautiful engine lives give your self a FULL day if not two. If you hustle you can cover the whole place in about 2-4 hours, but you are just selling your self short of enjoying everything this place has to offer!!! I've been twice with FFA and later with my colleges Auto club for spring break. Both times for only a few hours, and foolishly I made the mistake of saving the trains for last, both times get to this engine and it was time to leave!!! hoping to go back on my own to really enjoy the place and start at the trains!!!!!
@@drtidrow this is Henry Ford Museum, Greenfield Village is all outside and next door.
Well worth the price and visit. Best to spend 2 days going through the museum. The Village is great also. Don't do both the museum and Village the same day.
@@Laura-6887 Or get the annual pass and go whenever you have some free time... though not right now, what with COVID19 and all. Definitely worth it, though - always like to go to Motor Muster in June, which is a big car show for cars made in the period 1933-1976. In September they have the Old Car Festival, for cars built earlier than 1933.
Over in the village, they play historic baseball games on summer weekends in Walnut Grove Field, using 1867 rules, which means no gloves for the fielders, strikes and balls are normally not called, and the pitcher pitches underhand (much like softball). Perfect way to spend a sunny summer afternoon. ^_^
I'd love to see this one brought to life again. Too bad current tracks can't handle the weight.
Absolut a monster!
Well done. Thanks.
One big monster for sure!
I only dreamed they would restore the BigBoy. Then they did it. Would they restore the Allegheny? Here's hoping!
I am assuming you have also been to the Railway Museum in Scranton PA as well? If not it is worth the trip! A place to devote a full day to walking around, they even have a Big BOY on display (non operational).
would be awesome to see that monster run, can't imagine what you even have to know to operate it. those engines are a work of art they don't make stuff like that anymore, sigh.....
Excellent movie. Amazing Locomotive! Congratulations!
This is mind boggling. All that engineering designed to squeeze as much horsepower as possible from boiling water and steam using pencil and paper.
Hard to believe that moves off of fire and water.
What a beast - so pre digital cool vid thanks
Pretty soon digital will be seen as an antique
How can this articulated locomotive be lighter than the big boy and yet have more horsepower? Is there something that big boy lacks?
The Allegheny has a larger, more powerful boiler than the Big Boy.
Weight does not equate to power. A GE90 aircraft engine only weighs 20,000 lbs, but can generate 90,000+ shaft horsepower.
Let's fire 1601 up and get her running again
More powerful than the Big Boy? Yet the Big Boy has still been called the "Biggest" and "Heaviest"? I'm a bit confused... So, this one is smaller and lighter with more power... Also, if they've been able to run a restored Big Boy, why couldn't they run a restored H8?
It depends on how you look at things. The Big Boy probably couldn't pull the monster trains like the Allegheny did. However I doubt the Allegheny could pull a mile long train at 40 MPH up a grade like the the Big Boy did. We would all like to see a Allegheny run but nobody has made any offers to run or restore it. The museum would never let it go anyways. It's there star attraction.
@@travelingtom923 Isn't there another one someplace?
@@JungleYT Yes there is. There is another in Baltimore. It's in pretty good condition but it was dropped by a crane after a bad flood.
@@travelingtom923 OK I'll look it up... But, how in the world do you "drop" something that BIG? Would probably take 6 Boom cats to lift one of these things??? Still, if they can restore a Big Boy, they could restore one of these. Wish I was a Billionaire...
@@JungleYT There is photos somewhere. It was in a shopping mall or something, then it was outside, on a display track when a bad flood moved the track and locomotive. The crane was just lifting the front end up about 5 feet or so by the coupler when the cable broke. Probably did some damage.
Steamroller!
A supercharged train?😁
my brass H8 in n scale is prettier and it runs. but it won't pull more than my Athearn Big Boy.
Anyone have videos of this train operation ? Im very courious 😂
7500 hp' what was the offical torque Lbs/ft ?
Around 115,000 Pounds of Tractive Effort.
@@Train_Tok_Man It's actually 110,211 lbs
@@09JDCTrainMan Oops.
@@Train_Tok_Man No worries
@@Train_Tok_Man Upon getting the book "The Allegheny - Lima's Finest", the 115,000 lbf figure is actually pretty accurate, and on worn wheels, can exert up to 119,500 lbf tractive effort. This is due to the superior steam passages.
Самовар
My God that is one ugly Locomotive!
I love that big steam locomotive. A little fun fact. When the Blue Goose airplane arrived at the Henry Ford back in the 1970’s. I was one of the team of volunteers who helped put the wings back on. The Henry Ford and Greenfield Village has amazing volunteers.
Very nice video
That's one massive beast that was well preserved! I always admired the sheer engineering that went into building, running, and maintaining such a powerhouse!
Everything about the train looks like it would give you a bruise or a broken bone if you touched it.
Ha,ha. I imagine the mechanics had conversations something like this back in the day...
John-"Well there is a steam leak in that pipe right under the boiler. Why don't you go fix it"?
Dave-"No, John I think you should go fix it".
John-"Come on it isn't that bad".
Dave-"Then you fix the dam thing"!
John-"is Andy working today"?
Dave-"Don't know lets see if we can get him to do it".
EVERYTHING on the railroad hurts when you come into contact with it wrongly either by accident or on purpose.
Not the kind of train you can put back on the tracks with the 5 pronged rerailer from the sky, if you know what I mean!
This is a great video, but she's more impressive in person. When you get up next to her, you really appreciate how big she is. Plus getting up into the cab is an experience that you'll never forget. It would be cool to see if she could be brought back to life. But probably won't happen.
The last time I actually stood next to that I was twelve that was in 91.
I recall seeing this iron beast years ago. It is something to see...
About 5 years ago I was awakened by the sound of a steam whistle near my suburban Houston home. Lo and behold it was the Union Pacific "Big Boy" in town on tour. Magnificent engine and tender.
Back in the summer of 1971 when I was in college I worked for the Santa Fe Railroad in Pampa, TX where they had a work train set up to weld 37 foot lengths of track into quarter mile sections. I had a job to use a pry bar to align the track as it emerged from welding onto the quarter mile of rail track cars; there were slots to hold 24 quarter mile sections.
Up and down, pry and push as the 37 foot welded sections came out every 5 minutes or so. It was a grimy, boring, laborious job that paid well. I suppose that describes most railroad jobs. Thanks for this video, the days of steam railroads were glorious and opened up America for commerce.
But the big boy didn’t even run 5 years ago it was being restored
i would love to see 1601 restored like the UP did with big boy
Bring money....lots and lots of money.
@Joey TIchy why not? They got it in there by dismantling the building, do it again to get her out.
me to it would be the most powerful locomotive on the rails.
@@southernpacific-gq7vw Most powerful steamer on the rails, horsepower wise, yes
It would be easier to restore this engine, rather than the 1604, because this one had just been freshly shopped before the C&O sent it up to Dearborn under its own power, and on top of that it's been indoors in a climate-controlled museum the entire time, and the tracks that it got into the building on are still there.
On top of that, the Greenfield Village Railroad has sidings it could be put on for work, plus the Roundhouse has steam mechanics and machine tools needed to work on it, including a wheel lathe.
Furthermore, Dearborn is less than three hours' drive from two major organizations with extensive manpower and experience with the restoration, operation, and upkeep of Lima-built, Van Sweringen-owned Super Power locomotives: the Steam Railroading Institute in Owosso MI, keepers of the Pere Marquette 1225, and the Fort Wayne Railroad Historical Society in Ft. Wayne IN, keepers of the famous Nickel Plate 765. I would think that between those three groups, you'd be able to muster most, if not all, the resources and know-how to steam her back up. Of course, you might also need help from the folks on the Western Maryland Scenic Railroad, for dealing with aspects particular to an articulated locomotive.
The biggest difficulties I can think of (there's probably more) are:
1) Getting it out. Not only will you have to temporarily remove the equipment displayed behind the locomotive, but the curvature of the track going into the museum is so tight that the engine derailed seven times going around it when they first stuffed it in there.
2) Even with the facilities and trackage they already have there, you'd need to make a concrete work area and inspection pit suitable for jacking the locomotive up and removing the drivers and wheels from the locomotive and tender (maybe a full enclosed engine house with overhead crane) plus you'd still need to strip it down to bare boiler and frame, ultrasound the boiler, maybe new flues and sheets (God only knows what if any kind of lay-up they did on that boiler when they stuffed it in there), check the staybolts and caps, plus rebuilding or reconditioning all her running gear and appliances, maybe trueing and reprofiling her wheels, possibly new bearings, rebuilding her brakes, a new brake stand, plus God only knows what else.
3) All of the above takes time and money and labor, figure $2,000,000 and one or two years of labor, not counting work on the facilities.
4) Of course, the biggest pain in the d!ck of all will be scamming CSX into letting anyone run the bloody thing anywhere on their system, assuming that clearances and track alignments on their system will still accommodate such a giant locomotive. A Pacific or a Berkshire/Kanawha or a Northern/Greenbrier type is one thing. An Allegheny is something else again.
I'm not saying it couldn't be done, and I certainly have my hopes, but it would be easier and cheaper to buy a scale model from Rivarossi or MTH.
A magnificent machine.
I stuck my head underneath and checked out the massive foot thick steel frame at the front along with those huge leaf springs when I visited the museum back in 1982.
Yes I've been thinking it would be great to see one of these run now that a big boy is on the rails.
The locomotives are close in weight with this early H8 at 389 tons less the tender and the Big Boy at 384 tons for the early series and 386 for the second series so maybe a few miles of rail could be spared for historical purposes.
It definitely had the clear edge in power.
We have watched so many videos that really don’t let the viewer enjoy. This is the best video we have ever seen. We really
Enjoyed this. You also did a great job videoing the 4014 when it crossed the US. Thank you thank you.
Thank you.
The 1601 makes the "Big Boy" look small. I'd love to see it restored and back in steam!
Bothe are great steam engins
Dan Forbess haha. I believe if you check you’ll find it’s the other way around. The big boy was the largest and most powerful steam locomotive ever built.
R.A.Y.N 09 I think there’s going to be a pissing contest here, but your simple statement is right on.
@@donnebes9421 yeah
Don Nebes Big Boy was the longest, and made more tractive effort, but there were other simple and compound articulated locos that made even more tractive effort than the Big Boy.
Both weighed about the same, depending on how much the crews had eaten for lunch.
The Allegheny made more horsepower.
It's amazing seeing this thing still being well preserved. Last time I visited the Henry Ford Museum I was about 10 or 11 and the Titanic's "Ghosts of The Abyss" was the main IMAX attraction. This engine is truly frozen in time.
This museum is well worth the price.This place is great on cold winter day spend all day
Agree
The Allegheny was always my favorite big steam locomotive, even more so than the Big Boy. It was just a beast of a locomotive, and I thought it was the best looking of all the big articulateds. Just my opinion...I do like the Big Boy, though, and it's good to see the 4014 back on the rails!
This may never happen but it would be amazing to see this get fully restored and running again
Never happening
My dad has spent the last 30 years building a model of #1632 of this loco.
kurtguy.com/train/finished/_MG_2378_final.jpg
Pic to prove :) it's a 14 foot long fully functional steam engine he built from photos.
It's really huge. Really a big monster. Thank you very much for sharing that wonderful video.
People don't realize just how big the 1600s were until you stand next to one. I was able to do it both in Roanoke and Baltimore and even next to the N&W 2-6-6-4 the 1600 were monsters.
MY DAD HE WORK WITH BIG HUGE
STEAM ENGINE BACK IN 1951 AT
SOUTHERN RAILROAD WE L ❤ ❤ VE
OLD STEAM ENGINE.THEY HAVE ONE BIG HUGE STEAM ENGINE NAME
AFTER MY MOM DAD DANFORTH.
Paul Knapp oh god I’m gonna have a stroke just trying to read that
I would love to see this thing under steam again!!! Awesome locomotive
I remember a locomotive engineer once told me he would sell his soul to the devil for a chance to operate the locomotive.
It's highly unlikely, unfortunately. Unless CSX decides to start their own steam program, I'm not sure who would have the money and facilities to do it. I've heard they've permitted 2716 to run on a section of their system, but that's a much smaller engine. At least the WMSR is restoring 1309 for us to enjoy (it's like the Allegheny's "little" sister).
WTF 7.400 horse power is big power machine
Yes I have see the Big Boy many times but this locomotive is simply a beast. One locomotive actually had a boiler explosion.
7,400hp is huge, especially for being built in 1941!
@@Automcanic For the weight of the locomotive it is poor. 5,500 indicated horsepower, giving slightly more than 4,200 hp at the tender drawbar, can be delivered by a locomotive weighing 326,284 lbs. The Allegheny class weighed in the order of 751,830 lbs and had far too much weight on carrying axles.
@@DeCasoU1 Yes, but that 326,000 pound steam locomotive will not have the adhesion for heavy freight. It would make a great passenger train locomotive.
Remarkable piece of machinery, is this locomotive similar to Big Boy class? Here in Europe we don't have monsters like that i museums. 603 Tons? little heavier and will create black hole :)
The big boy is a 4-8-8-4. This is a 2-6-6-6. This has 6 trailing wheels. The big boy had more tractive power but this engine was a monster as well.
That engine has been at that museum for at least 46 years was there when I was in middle school. Need to go back I am sure slot of stuff has changed.
Now, see, this is where my engineer's sense of form and function sets off alarm bells. Yes, it is a most amazing example of extreme engineering, yes it would be interesting - in the same way NASCAR racing is 'interesting' - to see it steamed again. The same goes for almost any preserved steam locomotive, but you wouldn't want it to go on a near nationwide tour to show itself off, would you?
Inevitably #1601 is compared directly with the UP 4000 class of which there were 25 - I don't know how many of the H8 class there were. The UP Challengers (4-6-6-4) were about 628,000lbs (280 long tons - not incl tender) while this thing was 778,000lbs (347 long tons) 67 long tons more - almost the weight of a good sized British tank engine - on the same wheel arrangement. Just that fact scrapes the inside of your skull, like a fingernail down a chalkboard. The UP Big Boy was 340 long tons with 30% more driving wheels!
It's all very well claiming world records (14,000 ton freight train etc.,) but that was once. The Big Boy was designed to pull 9000 tons over Sherman Hill unaided and it did. Day after day, year after year, doing what it was designed to do. Yes the #1601 is an intriguing thing to look at, but it ain't handsome. #4014 is seriously handsome and although huge, it is nicely proportioned and is obviously the logical extension of #3985 (UP Challenger) which is downright good looking. There were 105 Challengers, so they were doing some good somewhere. So, it is good that #1601 is sympathetically preserved, but please don't dream of ever steaming it again. Because it will only prove once more, just what a rush of poop to the brain it represents.
There were sixty H8 built. For hauling trains over the Allegheny Mountains.
I think this would be awesome to see running with 4014. One can only hope to see this
The Alleghenies, though heavy nor having THE biggest boiler, likely has the best boiler while still being huge, at 109". It can average 6,700 to 6,900 drawbar horsepower, sustain a max of 7,375 DBHP and can peak at 7,498 DBHP at 46 mph, and runs on just 260 psi. Boiler pressure alone doesn't pay the bills, hence why it can still produce a lot more DBHP than the Big Boy, which operates at 300 psi. The Allegheny's steam generation is also superb, likely able to generate more steam than any other steam locomotive.
That's right. Many experts believe this locomotive had even more power than previously stated on paper. It was a fantastic and well designed locomotive for its time.
@@travelingtom923 Yeah. What I found out is it's because of the superior design of the steam passages to the steam chest, and as a result, a higher steam pressure is going into the cylinders than the Johnson Bar (reverser) indicates. An Allegheny exerted up to 119,500 lbf of starting tractive effort with worn 65.5" drivers. Going by the usual calculation of .85 (85% efficiency), it should've exerted only 112,735 lbf of starting tractive effort, but with the superior steam passages, it was actually working at slightly higher than 90% efficiency (.9%). It's the slightly higher than 90% efficiency that it was able to exert that 119,500 lbf figure.
The Allegheny never put out 7400HP. That was an outlier on the drawbar scatterplot while the test train it was pulling was coming out of a sag in the track. It put out 6600 to 6700 HP at the drawbar, still the strongest drawbar HP of any reciprocating steam locomotive.
Love the C&O H8 Locomotive , Lima Locomotive work "Finest" . Great video BUT You didn't show the MASSIVE Locomotive TENDER !! : ( Shame .That too is a Monster feeding the Giant Locomotives Appetite !
Awe inspiring! But think how much coal would be needed just to move itself along the rails!
I remember reading that you could put a table in the firebox and have 28 people eating dinner at the table.
@@TugIronChief Yes there is no way you could hand fire that locomotive. Probably shovel coal all day long and not even raise the steam gauge off of zero.
Traveling Tom I've heard of one Big Boy that had to be hand-fired light from Laramie to Cheyenne (Last of the Giants Vol. 3).
The dispatcher wanted to assign them to haul a train.
The fireman had other ideas.
I believe that he and the head brakeman took turns shoveling coal. Fortunately things got easier once they got to Sherman and started heading down grade.
what a monster!!! can't image that there were tracks that could hold the weight of this behemoth. thanks for posting a great video.
Truly an amazing beast! I live in the Local area and go see this beast every so often. It's really sad to see such a beautiful giant like this just sitting! Trust me, if I had the money I would do my best to put a team together and try to get her back on the rails again!
@Wroger Wroger it wouldn't tear up tracks. Railroads have done nothing but upgrade lines since the 40s when this beast was unveiled. Tight curves and lack of maintenance would be the only problems.
Una bestia de mas de 7000 hp!!!
Exelente video... saludos desde chile!!!
Thats one heavy locomotive. Its one of only 2 class H8s to survive into preservation, the other being C&O #1604. These locomotives were powerful
this was great actually. Not many virtual tours give this good of a look at her excellent condition. I swear she could be fired up right then and there(not really it’s not legally viable)
What a massive, huge example of a steam locomotive, i would love to see either the C&O 1601 or the 1604 for myself in person one day to view the size of one of these "beastly" examples of steam power.
this is the top-notch loco of steam tech, not the big boy, and if I ever get rich, I will buy this loco and bring her back into service, and maybe one day her and big boy can run together, along with N&W 1218.
What an excellent video. I have a favour to ask though. My retirement project (or at least one of them) is to model this locomotive in live steam. I live in Australia and am not sure I am ever going to get to the US to take my own photos of the locomotive to enable me to design the model. Would it be possible to obtain a copy of the video so I can take still photos of some of the detail? Stopping the video on UA-cam is always difficult to get the right spot but video editing software will allow frame by frame. All help is appreciated.
This there only major steam locomotive?
If I worked there and had to listen to that steam whistle blaring every couple seconds I'd take a hammer to it. I love the sound of the old steamers but that would get annoying real fast.
Big museum back in time stream locomotives that's awesome friend nothing comes cheap anymore bless you friend love to visit very soon see it all
I always wondered what the comfort level was inside the cab when the engineer and fireman sat so close to the boiler. I imagine that it was probably comfortable during the cold, winter months but hell during those hot, humid days of summer.
I heard you froze in the Winter as you couldn't keep the windows shut because of the steam forming on the glass. You would of course boil in the Summer.
The real issue here is not which one had more horsepower or tractive effort, but the fact the the 2-6-6-6 Allegheny was really a poor choice for what the C&O needed - i.e. a mountain coal hauler. The would have been much better served by a modern Yellowstone type, such as B&O's EM-1 2-8-8-4. The Allegheny 2-6-6-6 was built because the head of the design team, Dan Ellis was obsessed with beating the N&W class A 2-6-6-4, even though N&W used their A's primarily as flat land haulers. It was Ellis who forced Lima to hide the excessive weight of the completed locomotives, even falsifying the weight certificate at time of delivery. The Allegheny may have been slightly more powerful than the UP Big Boy, depending on how you measure power, but that misses the point that the UP engines all came in within their design requirements including axle load, while the Allegheny was way overweight. As far as tractive effort goes, the DM&IR Yellowstones were more powerful than either, and the PRR Q2's made more horsepower. The Allegheny is a magnificent beast, but the UP Big Boy was a better locomotive.
The EM-1s were never designed to lug coal either. The had an articulation joint between the front and back drive wheels designed for highspeed stability and the produced their maximum HP from 40 to 50 mph. They were purchased by the B&O for higher speed general merchandise and express train operation. They ended up pulling Great Lake bound coal trains and the end of their careers after all the main line trains were dieselized. That's when most of the photo and films were taken...when people realized it was only a matter of time before they were scrapped like the rest of steam.
More powerful than the Big Boy.
Horsepower wise, yes.
Okay they brought the big boy 4104 back to life let's see if they can pull this one off
Hey Tom. What kind of boiler pressure do these run? Are there water tanks in that trailer? How far could they go on one fill-up?
You said it was to heavy for some tracks back in their day, so if the big boy is heavier, how do they manage to run it around nowadays? Great video.
There sure are a lot of valves in that cab. Are some of them for bypassing bigger valves to bleed small amounts of steam in the lines to preheat them so they are not shocked by a large amount of steam hitting them all at once? I worked engine rooms aboard ship in the navy and we preheated all the lines with bypass bleeder lines when the boilers were lit off. That is, they bypassed the main valve in a line. Even with those heater lines you got a lot of nocking from cold lines being heated. That would flake off the insulation, asbestos, then you ended up with a very hot engine room!
The alleghenies ran on 260 psi in a single 109 inch diameter fire tube boiler. The tender that follows behind the engine is indeed a water tank and fuel bunker carrying 25 tons of coal and 25,000 gallons of water. How far that will take it all depends on how hard the engine is working. A lot of those valves are just valves for shutting off/turning on miscellaneous appliances, such as the dynamo which generated electricity for the lights or the air pumps (mounted on the smokebox front)for the brakes.
A good amount of the valves on the left hand side of the cab are for the fireman to control the amount of coal going onto the fire. As seen at 12:25 there's actually a mechanical stoker powered by a separate engine like you would see on a stationary steam engine assembly. It brings coal from the tender to the firebox through an Archimedes' screw and is moved into the far reaches of the firebox with jets of dry steam, also controlled by valves on the fireman's(left) side.
These engines were equipped with what I call a 3-45 air conditioner- You open both cab windows and the roof vent and go 45 mph... and that's your AC! you have to stick your head out of the cab window a lot as the engineer on a steam locomotive anyway, that long boiler in front of you doesn't make for good visibility at all!
And as far as their weight is concerned - The weight of the powered part of the Allegheny is heavier than the powered part of the Big Boy by about t3000 pounds. The Alleghenies were actually heavier than ordered. In fact, C&O sued Lima over the large difference in weight because Lima even tried to hide it.
Running a Big Boy nowadays... well, the main difference is the C&O had different terrain to deal with than the UP. in the curves and bridges, quality of trackwork, tunnel clearances etc. etc. Nowadays with advances in technology, we could probably (theoretically) run the Big Boys on a regular basis on the UP and not have any significant difference in the amount Maintenance of Way needed because the quality of UP's mainline has increased greatly since the 1940's.
Here's the specs of the Alleghenies and the Big Boys for comparison:
Allegheny (Chesapeake & Ohio)
:
Wheel Arrangement: 2-6-6-6
Length: 125' - 8"
Drivers: 67" dia.
Weight on Drivers: 504,010 lbs
Locomotive Weight: 775,330 lbs
Tender Weight: 431,710 lbs
Locomotive & Tender Weight: 1,207,040 lbs
Grate Area: 135 sq ft
Cylinders: (4) 22.5" dia. x 33" stroke
Boiler Pressure: 260 psi
Tractive Effort: 110,200 lbs
Water: 25,000 gallons
Coal: 25 tons
Big Boy (Union Pacific)
:
Wheel Arrangement: 4-8-8-4
Length: 132''10"
Drivers: 68" dia.
Weight on Drivers: 545,200 lbs (second class)
Locomotive Weight: 772,250 lbs
Tender Weight: 436,500 lbs
Locomotive & Tender Weight: 1,208,750 lbs
Grate Area: 150 sq ft
Cylinders: (4) 23.75" dia. x 32" stroke
Boiler Pressure: 300 psi
Tractive Effort: 135,000 lbs
I hope you find this information as useful and interesting as I do. Locomotives are my main passion in life, and for as long as I can remember (about 20 years so far!) I've been studying them. Most of this stuff is recited from memory with minimal online/book research just to confirm some stuff I wanted to double check. false information is quite abundant in the world... I try my best not to contribute to it and instead put out only the facts!
@@PowerTrain611 Well said.
@@PowerTrain611 Why the Big Boy can still be on the rails and the Alleghany won't be is found in the axle loadings of the drivers: the Big Boy carries 34075 lbs. on each axle, the Alleghany carries 42000 lbs. That is a big difference.
@@TugIronChief To say it was a lot of labor is a understatement. Most of the fire arch is burned away in the smoke box. The fire arches only had a life span of about 30 days and had to be replaced. Lots of manual labor for that. Coal cinders constantly wore stay bolts down to thin metal in the firebox. I read that on some locomotives fireboxes had to be replaced yearly. This locomotive looks like a mechanical nightmare. Just fixing steam leaks was probably a full time job. You look at the guys working on these steam engines and the majority of the time they are old men!
cdjhyoung rails today have no problem holding this kind of weight. The rail used back then was much lighter and thinner than today.
The Allegheny's are my favourite locomotives. It is an interesting museum. Thanks a lot for sharing this video.
She needs to be restored to working condition an important part of American History!
Wow.. Great video 👍👍
Hollow Stays are such a brilliant idea I don't know why I never saw them on British Railways locomotives ....
That is interesting never new that.
@@travelingtom923 Generally US steam design was ahead of the UK. Eg long travel/ long lap piston valves and high superheat were adopted by the GWR I think following the lead demonstarated in US pacific designs in the early 20th C. Crew conditions were far better in the US till at least the 1940s with cab controls laid within easy reach, steam reversers and of course mechanical coal feed instead of hand firing. I know traffic conditions were extremley different but for example in some British designs it was not possible to reach the brake handle while looking backwards from the cab while reversing onto a train. GWR tender locos did not even have cab doors... ever! For mechanical sophistication the French ended up ahead but at a price in terms of maintainance. Interestingly British steam built by private manufacturers for export was up to modern standards particularly as built by North British at their Atlas works in Glasgow for South African Railways. Most British railway companies built most of their own locos. The Midland Railway was famous for its backwardness even by British standards... small locos, short travel valves inside valve gear and inadequate wheel bearing surfaces even in their 4F goods locos built by the company's successor, the LMS. Obsolete from the day they were built. As for British Three Link Couplings... they led to many hundreds of deaths among Shunters who had to step between vehicles to throw the links over drawhooks or else flick them over the hook from outside the buffers. Many died crushed between buffers. Most freight vehicles had hand brakes only which were operated on the move by a shunter using a pole to lever down the brake lever. To apply enough force they rode the pole putting their whole weight on it at about 10mph... running alongside each vehicle to get the pole in place then leaping on to ride it on their stomachs. Lethal and ùtterly backward compared with US 'knuckle' automatic couplers. Three link couplings allowed very small locomotives to draw rolling stock forward one truck at a time to put in enough momentum to tug the last vehicle, a brake van. Small locos, long trains and three link couplings were very poor indeed.
@@stephensmith799 Hollow stays were found on a few British locomotives but given that arsenical copper fireboxes with a range of staying materials depending company practice, stress levels to be dealt with, best suitability etc formed by far the majority of fireboxes on British locomotives it is clear that the companies involved had good reasons to adopt this practice and in the main continue it to this day. The Institution of Locomotive Engineers papers can shed a great deal of light on the thinking taking place.
The subject of long travel and long lap valves is tied in with trying to deal with lubrication and wear issues, also the use of narrow versus broad valve rings. There was a great deal going on at the time, the introduction of the narrow rings was felt by some to be more beneficial than the introduction of long travel and long lap valve gear.
Locomotive cabs fitted with seats for the crew and well set out controls came into use in the 1920s, you don't need power stokers on grate areas of 50 sq ft or less, nor do you need a power reverser, unless your valvegear is inordinately heavy and lacks balance weights or springs.
The Midland 4F was not the best design of its type but the idea that the wheel bearings were undersized is not correct and you can buy a book explaining all of this. Give yourself a start by checking out the size of the boxes fitted to these engines in comparison with engines of a similar size and type from the other companies. It was powerful enough for the work it had to perform, large trains were seldom needed in the UK.
No one stands between the buffers they are usually touching or very close to it. The main problem comes about when someone moves the train while coupling work is being carried out which is why the brake hoses are uncoupled to make sure that nothing moves while you are either swinging the buckeye or working on the screw link, this assumes fitted stock. The UK did have a large legacy stock of unfitted vehicles and companies were making efforts to move to fitted freight trains before WW2, and now things get complicated because the Government decided that all freight stock should be nationalised for the good of the war effort. In the UK there were a large number of privately owned freight wagons and these were taken up into railway company ownership and if you believe that the Government picked up the bill, think again. So there you are trying to modernise your freight services and a war comes along and you are forced to take on thousands of vehicles at significant financial cost. And the rest is history.
The problem was that the railways expanded very quickly from basic industrial beginnings and the growth produced a number of issues that became very difficult to address and the unfitted goods wagon was just one of them. There were accidents, thousands of them, unsafe working practices were a major issue. You can work unfitted stock relatively safely, the preservationists keep the art alive to this day but they have the time and the training to carry the task out. Inadequate training coupled with commercial pressure, less than ideal conditions which could be pretty poor anyway with all the noise and you had a recipe for carnage. Rather like the chain brake the loose coupled freight train lasted longer than it ought to have done.
The French were good at thermodynamics, their drawing office practice left something to be desired.
With Mainline track 136# nowadays, I wonder if driver weight would still be an issue?
No
they need to get this big girl back on the tracks like the big boy!
I have visited this museum and seen this steam engine numerous times. It is very cool
the designer of that monster must have been so proud to see it working!
Yes must have been nice bragging rights during that time era.
we have 4 h's survived 2 h6 and 2 h8
2-6-6-2 1308
2-6-6-6 1601
2-6-6-6 1604
2-6-6-2 1309
Is the UP Big Boy locomotive still bigger than the Allegheny H8 C&O?
@Aaron Bonatz Yes, the Big Boys were longer, heavier, and had more starting tractive effort than the H8. The Big Boys were also rated to pull much heavier trains on comparable mountain grades (4450 tons on a 1.14% grade for the Big Boy, compared to 2950 tons on a 1.14% grade for the H8 Allegheny). The Alleghenies did have an edge in horsepower above 30 mph.
Great video, Thanks for presentation! from Germany
I can't imagine the water to heat the pressure per square inch" it would take to move something like this, plus the freight unimaginable... Hard to believe water steam to help build this country before the industrial revolution....
Steam powered the industrial revolution.
And designed w/o computers. Beyond impressive.
what a machine a tribute to the engineers of the forties & fi fties in the usa
The foam is THICC in the comments section..
このカマとUPビッグボーイでどちらが最大で最強か？をよく議論されとるんじゃヨ…テンダー迄含めた運転整備重量はビッグボーイに軍配が上がるが機関車本体だけではこの前期型アレゲニーH8(1601は前期型)の方が3トンほど重く最大とも云える。最強と云うことについてはただ単に牽引力だけならトリプレックスマレーが最強で次はイエローストーンになるやろうけどこれらの機関車は重い長大な石炭列車や鉱石列車を低速で牽引する機関車で馬力的には最強では無い。シリンダー牽引力はカタログ性能だけで見ればペンシーのデュープレックス式のQ2の方が大きいけど実際の馬力においてはビッグボーイやこのアレゲニーがボイラーを21気圧に上げた時の方が強力で微妙やけど…アレゲニーの方がボイラーは太く軸重や動輪上重量も重い為、最強はビッグボーイよりアレゲニーでは？とも云われとる。ただ、アレゲニーは最高速度60マイル(時速約96キロ)でけっして遅くは無いがビッグボーイは80マイル(130キロ弱)も出る高速機関車でドイツの花形急行機関車ゼロイチや超特急あじあ牽引の満鉄パシナと同等の速度なんじゃヨ。ビッグボーイは第二次大戦中に西海岸から東海岸へ又その逆に重い長大な軍用列車を単機でシャーマンヒル越えして出来るだけ早く届ける為に製造された機関車なので馬力、牽引力、速度で非常に高いレベルで実現させた機関車でも有るので最大最強の称号はまぁ…このアレゲニーとビッグボーイとの争いになるやろうけど実際に力比べした事がないので何とも云えんなぁ…(笑)最近ビッグボーイが動態復帰したけどこのアレゲニーも何度か動態復帰の話が出たけど結局は立ち消えになってもうたわい…(笑笑)。どちらも1941年生まれでビッグボーイはアルコ(アメリカンロコモーティブ)でアレゲニーはライマ社製。アレゲニーはこれ以外にももう一輌保存されとる筈。(ビッグボーイは8輌)いつか何処かで動態復帰したアレゲニーとビッグボーイの競演が観たいもんやな…(笑笑笑)。
i bet when lima was desinging this thing thay said to a engineer how much power,the engineer:"yes."
One of the most powerful steam locomotives of all time that's for sure.
Let's put this back to work. I understand that the 1601 is extremely heavy for the time. So update and reduce some weight. The power will still be there. But the weight will be reduced and thus more effective and efficient. Seriously return to steam power and use the technology but update it with modern materials like refactor materials that weigh a lot less than normal of era jacketing. Etc etc probs could shave a few tonnes off its weight and still retain the 7500hp
Yes you could. You could construct a new cab from aluminium, move the air tanks to the tender, only put 1/4 sand in the dome, etc. It could be done.
@@travelingtom923 also using newer metals that are stronger and lighter than what's there. Modern refactoring materials for the heat jacket etc etc. All this would shave several thousand pounds off her and make her probably the most powerful locomotive ever. More so than bigboy or challengers.