Mercedes 190E 2.5-16V - Performance Bargain Of The Decade
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- Опубліковано 24 бер 2024
- The 190E 2.5 16V is a race bred winner, it even beat the M3, but it is only half the price. Today I drive one and find out if it is half the car or the next performance icon to try and buy before it becomes unattainable.
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I remember seeing one of these as a teenager on the Costa Del Sol in the mid-80s (the earlier 2.3?) - with the body kit and the spoiler - it was a hot sunny day and it had just parked up near the beach, covered in a coating of Southern Spanish road dust, heat radiating off the bonnet and tires, a couple of German guys with poodle perms, handlebar moustaches and aviator sunglasses proceeded to get out of it - looking like they had just driven non-stop through the night from Stuttgart! A classic 80s memory!
The 190e was one of the best engineered and developed Mercedes Benz ever. It was a proper very well engineered Mercedes Benz and deserved the phrase "das beste oder nichts" (the best or nothing.) Today Mercedes has lost the plot and can no longer rightly describe their cars as the best or nothing. They are now one of the least reliable brands on the market. Sad really as I used to be a huge MB fan.
Was it the first car that cost over a million to develop? … I know the ‘Diana, S class was the first billion pound development cost but there’s something about the development of the 190e
You nailed it
That’s why I’ve 3 Mercs
‘85 380sl
‘85 500sec
‘85 190e 2.3-16
Don’t worry pal, as life long BMW nerd, I feel the same way!
@@gimmee.gimmee.gimme.nah sadly reality. Target customers, and more importantly company leadership changed.
It used to be that stringent engineer's used to be in charge. Today its the finance department and marketeers
@@MyILoveMinecraft Yes, this is definitely one of the last well-made Mercedes. They've been really mediocre since the early 90s.
Modern plastics in cars: 🤡
Plastics in 1980s german cars: 🗿
Only in the ones that are well looked after. Others are still garbage. But yeah lightyears better then plastics from today in anything not just cars. Everything today is horrible.
And on a related note even rubber bands. I found some from 80s they are still good while today you are lucky to be able to have one for a month or two, they all melt fast ... My mother is hoarding rubber bands and I keep finding them glued up in EVERYTHING. Pisses the life out of me ...
The actual 'Sigma face' icon :D
Modern Mercs are dire.
*Laughs in E30 dash*
@@minmogrovingstrongandhealthyI think they're made out of some kind of Chinese pseudo-rubber these days. Like corn syrup or rice gluten or something.
I worked on these as an MB technician back in the day and out of about 20 or so customers with 2.3 and 2.5-16’s only experienced 1 auto a 2.3-16 so from my experience a lot more 5 speed manuals than 4 speed autos maybe you meant the 190E 2.6 manuals where rare on those. The electronic actuated differential was called ASD and was the first MB system that had self diagnosis capability (blink codes). Also car has a steering box not a steering rack hence why RHD has the exhaust manifold like it is (and early 2.3’s used to crack manifolds and a bit of a pain to change them)
The auto is rare and much less desirable, I’ve owned a dog leg Cosworth and can confirm would not touch the auto
@@chiefrocka8604 Agree if I wanted a quick auto w201 it would be a 190E 2.6
@@chiefrocka8604 I agree, manual MUCH better, I own 2, and (3) e30 m3's
Cleaning mine tomorrow , 93 ,, 2.0 ,, 120.000 on clock , 3 owners. Love it .
How jealous am I :)
the worst part of owning a classic is the neglect previous owners have on them. good to hear you are taking care of it
Always liked the 2.3/2.5-16,great car, I think it looks better with the original wheels not the AMG’s
Can't put AMGs on, spoils the original look. Maybe fit a proper gearbox too - It was dog-leg between 1st and 2nd, took a bit of getting used to when you were in a hurry.
Totally agree
Lovely car, look at that dash, oozes class, just compare with Merc dashboards of today which look like a fairground attraction, aimed at the Tic Toc influencer.
Modern dashboards are my least favorite thing in new cars. I sit in front of a screen enough already, I'd like a different experience while driving, thanks.
@@blisterbrain Indeed, and that is one of the many things I like about the dash on my Alfa Giulia, less is more.
Trust me this car is such an iconic classic. Well engineered, a brilliant chassis and just downright masterpiece. The Evolution 1 was another level BUT the ohh so RARE DTM derived Evolution 2 is an absolute dream in all respects and just so rare and priceless... Brilliant car.!.
Evo2 is a gem, so iconic and true DTM legend. Rare as fc.uk though.
Horrible ride....horrible gear change...dreadful car.
@@simonoldroyd5037 couldn't agree more r.e E30, that's why the Merc 190 16v especially Evo2 'ive driven it l h.d with the dog leg' ... Beats the BMW hands down. . . So well said buddy 👍
@@B.S.N7319 You comparing the Evo 2 with the M3, compare it with the M3 sport evolution, which leaves the Merc in the dust. Plus the BMW looks much better
@@PatricioGarcia1973 No it doesnt in any of the cases lol.
In that Race, Lauda started from last position, Senna started from pole. At the finish, Senna won, but with Lauda on his rear bumper. Lauda overtook the entire field and had a higher speed than any other in the race!
Prost started on pole and Senna took him out at the first corner. Senna started third behind Reuteman
Not to mention Lauda was 11 years older and past his prime
Lauda started 14th, of 20, not last
@@albertocomesana1248 lauda was F1 world champion that year
@@freedman917 does not hide the fact he retired one year later, which is what sportspeople do when they’re no longer on top of their game. Not trying to take any credit from Senna, I just think Lauda’s feat is the bigger feat at this race
My uncle had a brand new one of those in the same colour. Later on he bought the W124 coupe. Might have been the hammer but I was only a little kid. I do remember it saying AMG on it. My parents had a Nissan Micra at the time so my uncle was my hero.
I owned several 190e's including the '93 Limited edition which featured the Cosworth suspension and 4 Recaro seat configuration. EXCELLENT cars all, maybe the best car Mercedes ever made.
W124 was even better!
I love these. When were Mercedes weren't cheap and were uncommon on our roads.
In the days when fords dominated the roads, and Audis, BMWs and Mercs were as rare as alloy wheels.
All depends where you lived.
James May won the Top Gear challenge in one of those, should count for something. What an episode that was, against newer M3 and Sierra Cosworth.
All of them death traps!
I had the 190E 2.6 Auto. Incredible car including build quality, and over-engineered. Gorgeous. The 2.5-16V was the holy grail.
Always liked the 190 Mercedes. And they still look good and are very practical while at the same time giving a real sense of Mercedes build quality. Thanks for the ride.
I loved my W201 2.0 Diesel, bulletproof!
I remember when these were £5k. £3k for a 2.3.
Great, engaging, succinct video as always Jack 👍🏻
Thanks for the fun video, as usual. I have a Mercedes 190e 2.3-16 valve with a manual gearbox. I don't know how they compare with the M-3's, but to me, it doesn't matter. Mine is a 1987 model. To me, it is a great car, I love the revs and the cornering etc. You don't see too many of these cars in Canada. I will be keeping it for a long time. Cheers, Rob.
Enjoyed the video.
I actually paid a visit to those roads last week as I was in the area- they’re a better test a car’s dynamics in reality than they perhaps look on film. Beautiful area.
Great video on the Mercedes 190E 2.5-16V!
Not gonna lie, I love these old Mercs so much and it's nice to see people are preserving them.^^
My best mate who was also my best man at my wedding had one of these, he absolutely loved that car more than hhe loved his other half 😂... Anyway after an evening of festivities at my wedding obviously the next morning he wasn't on the ball because as he was driving home from the wedding venue he parked his 190E or as he insisted it was called a Mercedes cosworth in to a local woodland area and that was the end of his cossy 😂
Wrecked?
I hope you can remake this video with a 190E paired with the 5 speed. I have a US 2.6 5 Speed and it makes a WORLDS difference. I have another 2.3 8V auto and it is just a cruiser. These engines love to be at high RPM's and MAN they are so good with the Manual. It's a real 80s sports sedan.
That Self-leveling system was used in estates. coupe and long versions, optional in sedans of the 124-series. Really durable and well built system 😊
Best approach to the 190 E *16V so far. - Thank you!
Believe it or not, my 18 years old mate had one of these brand new in 89! Gold, I'm sure it had a dogleg box, I didn't think it felt that fast ,I had a fiat strada abarth and it kept up with it! He blew the engine up on it,didn't run it in properly and ended up getting a brand new sapphire cossie and ended up wrapping it round a lamppost, much be nice to have a rich father!
Sounds like a right character! Is he still with us??
Great car, always coveted these as a kid, really informative vid, thanks Number 27 !
In mid 1990's I worked on a farm, and the grandson ran a manual 190e 2.3-16valve in a stunning grey. Which really was outstanding to me(I was 17 at the time). And was lucky enough to ride as a passenger in a cross country trip from the farm to the railway station at Haywards Heath. I won't forget that journey (his other hack was a mk2 VW Caddy Sport (another very quick vehicle cross country)mode of transport. Not quite sure how he managed to get all 6ft 4 height into the caddy, but he did. I do wonder what became of both(along with his mums 1986 M5 in Zinnaber Red(once again I did get to ride as a passenger in it. Truly wonderful experiences to me as a 17yr old. Thank you for this video Jack.
Lovely review Jack. That is one of the very few Mercs I could ever see myself driving.
Absolutely the best car ever made the 190E just hard to find a good one these days.
The 190E 2.3 16v Cosworth is the best of the bunch, despite being lower powered than the 2.5 16v, or the EVO or EVO II as the gear ratios got longer, the cars got heavier and the power grew accordingly. Albeit the original 2.3 16v Cosworth is actually still the quickest accelerating of the bunch, despite what the stats say.
We had a purple 2.3 at work with a dog leg manual box, great car. Thanks Jack great memories.
What did Martin Bundle make of the chassis? That is the most important question 😂
I was lucky enough to have a few rides in an EVO II 20 years ago, very impressive car. No one believed it was anything but a 2.5 16 with a body kit at first, but the owner pulled out all the proof needed. He had a Suzuki Samurai as a daily, haha.
Great review Jack and what a car - wouldn’t that just stand out at the dealership today. The 190 was much preferred across the range with auto box and many complaining about the manual being notchy and vague. I’ve got a mint 190 2.0e and with nine points on my license and one life left it’s the perfect car, smooth comfortable and wafts along on air. Love it and hasn’t skipped a beat in three years of ownership. The spare parts bin is diminishing rapidly though. 😢 I also have an e30 sport which is definitely the more spirited drive but the build quality in the merc far outshines the beamer on every part.
I have a 2.5-16 with the 5 speed dogleg manual, pre cat so 204 horse. I see that one has the auto but also an AMG plug cover, if it’s an original ‘AMG power pack’ car it was very expensive and rare option on the 2.5-16 and evo cars, an extra 20 horse or so. I have mine a long time, only 67k on it, was my daily, replaced it with a C36 AMG.
I sold the C36! I still have the 190e.
I'll always remember the day in 2002, when I was driving to Bolton to swap my alpina b10 for a 190 2.5 16, and less than 2 miles to go, a big end gave up. 😢
Alpina b10 ❤❤❤❤
Mine is 1990 black auto 2.5 16 converted with the evo1 kit, has a straight through ss pipe and it sounds like a DTM car, loud and rasspy!
I’m driving one. A 2.5-16 Ruf (non cat) Gertrag dogleg manual in silver with half leather/karo fabric. Came with aircondioning too. Love it very much.
I would urge you to try the one you forgot or don't know about, that's the 190E 3.2 AMG.
Fantastic car, I worked on a lot at the time it was out, fitting alarms & stereos, great to drive especially the manual. Would make a great modern classic to add to the garage.
I remember putting a slam panel in one 30 years ago and what struck me most it revved and sounded like a 2.0 pinto , it really did 😂
Thank you for this video! As a touring car, the 190E - count all versions - predates the M3 and had a comparable competition shelf life. Up there with certain supercars as one of the cars of the 1980s and 1990s.
You can say the same about the triumph dolomite, it pre dated the E30 as the original sports saloon.
The same way, RS4 is poorer relative, to an E46 M3 it's all about the brand name, BMW & FORD owns! The classic sports car car market.
In terms of the most appreciating asset.
The self-levelling rear suspension is there to reduce squat / nose up on acceleration & to smooth out the dip & dive as you come on & off the throttle...
The manuals had a dogleg first with 2nd to 5th in the H pattern.
Cheers!!
Was going to mention the dogleg, it was on an old Top Gear and largely played for laughs how often you'd end up in reverse rather than 1st. Worked with a guy who had one about 20 years ago just as they were starting to be recognised as a potential future classic, he loved his.
@@cruachan1191 yeah...doing a traffic-light Grand Prix in reverse is not great 🤪
I had an e320 - brilliant car, but with only 15 horses more than this one...mate of mine had a C46 AMG ...that is a car 27 needs to take out... he got pulled in France & on the way to the cashpoint the female Gendarme was drifting it with full approval!
Loved the dog leg manual, once mastered and warmed 'its brilliant on country or A roads'.
Had my 2.3 16 manual for 25 years and still regret selling it.
The self levelling rear suspension is most likely used to ensure rear camber remains within acceptable ranges when heavily loaded.
Especially important when driving at sustained high speeds with rear passengers as it kept the wheel upright and stops the inner edges of the tyres taking all the load and potentially failing.
The 500E and Lotus Carlton also used SLS
Nice Jack. I love those. That car would be nice here in the Staes for me since is an auto right hand drive. Not sure how long it would take me to learn how to shift with my left arm.
Way back in time ( 1990) My two college mates and me had all passed our driving tests. Our dads were petrolheads so when the dads were at work ( this bit is naughty even though we were insured) . I would go to my mates in my dads rover sd1 3.5v8, he would then follow me in his dads merc cosworth to the other mates house, who would then follow us on small adventures in his dads astra gte 16v. We would swap cars to drive, it was fun and taught me all i know about car handling.
My father had an non-cat 2.3-16, 185PS, beside the „bonanza“ effect when accalerating in first gear, a sporty, reliable and lovely car. Very lively engine.
Ciao Giacomo.
The mythical 190!
My father had 3 of them, diesel. I think this was the best car he ever had: the drive was totally efforless, it was quick and reliable.
I remember a trip made from Genoa to Alicante in 12 hours, included a stop to have a paella for lunch near Barcelona.
Thamk you
Well that's a surprise, I always thought the hot 2.3/2.5 190E's were dogleg manuals as standard with an option for an auto if required. Every day's a school day!
Ahh jack got few mins in the video was so excited for this review then I see the gear stick, please try get a manual getrag on in the future and do another review please .
Still looks great today Jack👍👍👍
The self leveling suspension probably was adopted to stop rear end sag, especially when lowered. The w201 and following w202 chassis have some weird aerodynamic quirks when they sag in the rear and cause lift at the front. Wayward steering and wind sensitivity being two of those.
it looks so aggressive, what a great car.
Years ago I had an E28 528i and my mate had the 2.3 16 (not evo)
We had a head to head (up to 70 mph obviously)
I’m pleased to say I beat him, but only just. His was manual and so was mine.
I've owned two of these a 2.3 manual which had a dog leg gearbox designed for left hand drive vehicles wasn't much fun to be honest. However the 2.5 auto similar to the one used in this recording was my personal favourite, far more practical for everyday use!! Brings back great memories!
My dad had one in the black sure it was the 2.3 unbelievable car rapid as well great content as usual.
Surprising review. The predecessor, 2.3 16 was a really fizzy engine and free reviving with a superb sound. The auto was clearly a US market option
If you are ever near the Midlands, you can have a go in my manual. 13 owners, living daylights thrashed out of it and still going ok.
The whole point of the SLS suspension is so that it levels the suspension when you add weight in the rear either in the boot or in the rear seat so the rear wouldn't be lower than the front since rear springs are always softer than the front. My guess is Mercedes made them standard on the Cosworth models because since it was range topper of the w201 they just went and loaded them with bells and whistles as standard.
Edit: Also, Jason Cammisa, who owns both an e30 and w201, said that the m3 is a better driver's car, but the w201 is a better car in every other category.
But it's a PRNDL! A friend had the 2.3 version with the dogleg first gearchange. It did not have a rack but had a steering box. It was a lovely car with the leather interior and for its time it was a very fast car. I remember the hair standing up on the back of my neck and looking at the speedo and seeing 140mph ..... on the M60 in Stockport. It was a real Q car. It could pass for a taxi at a glance and the boys in blue were never interested in them, whereas a Cossie with its big wing would be followed for miles.
never looked like taxi's but agree the 2.3's were very very lively
A friend of mine is lucky to have both the Evo I and Evo II in most excellent condition.
He lives in Valkenswaard in the Netherlands should you ever want to meet him, haha.
Thank you for another excellent video and as usual, greetings from the Netherlands
What about the 190E 2.6 6-cylinder Sportline, that is almost as powerful as the 2.5-16, has the lowered suspension, diff, sports steering, and wheel, and nicer to drive and you can actually get one.
They used to sell for $5-6000 at one point. I like the 190e 2.6 sport as well.
I own a 1988 2.3-16 and will do till I die lol Yours has the rare rear seat headrest option and headlight wipers like mine, unless they were standard in the 2.5, they were all options on the 2.3. Mine also has the ASD diff and a manual. Great video, not many good vids on the 190E 16vs on here :)
The W201 is such a well proportioned car. Thanks again Jack for such an insightful review.
I thoroughly enjoyed watching it go along those roads..... A bygone era of engineering brilliance 💪🏼
Martin Brundle said is was the finest rear drive chassis he'd ever driven.
😂 When May called to check, Brundle could not recall this...
@@TassieLorenzo "and Senna too? Oh I didn't know that."
Iconic May moment
I actually saw that 50 000 km at 250 km/h average car in Mercedes Stuttgart museum!
Nice car for sure. Modern classic with a superb build quality and drive setup. I drove an Evolution 2 about 20 years ago, now that left hand drive only car was an absolute joy, superior handling and a high r.p.m engine that screamed upto 7500 revs'ish and itd dog leg gtrag gearbox once warmed up was joyful. 190e was/is a thoughtful 'over engineered car' compared to todays PLASTIC component junk.
I used to own H714WCH a white 190E 1.8 Auto with blue cloth interior. It was immaculate after having been owned by a wedding chauffeur. Hugely over engineered and built like a tank. All I had done was the head gasket and a fuse replaced. I wish I had never got rid of it. Problem was it was no good in snow with an open diff and one wheel peel.
One of my old Directors had a white E190 Brabus back around 1990. It looked awesome. Are there still any around?
Few words about limited-slip-differential... Even with conventional "plate"-LSD you won´t get locking always if there is no preload, and how much you got that lock on acceleration or coasting depends from the ramp angles inside the diff. If you had for example 40% LSD but no preload, car handles pretty normally under cornering and actually gives you some lift-off-oversteer, but under heavy acceleration the diff bites and then you get that oversteer through outer wheelspin. Welded diffs are totally another case...😁
If anyone knows who Ben Dover is, i've seen one of his old videos where these were new, he picked up one of his "Model's" from a train station in one of these, real TOP G
I shouldn't admit this but I know who Ben Dover is........
He's mate's with Phil McCrackin 😂
Haha you know@@thetruthwillout3347
He's a legend mate@@johnmandragon4830
I was in a club with him and this bird serviced me and him together 😂
Thanks for video. Beautiful car and good film 🎥 👏
Watch out for Harry coming the other way, or me !
Had a 190D and 190E, still one of my most favorite cars, for how relaxed it drives.
For the auto box, not sure about the 16Vs, but the 2 valve engines, it starts usually in 2nd gear. If you floor it it has to shift to 1st first. To avoid that, you have to move the gear selector all the way to "2", and then back. Then it should start in 1st for one launch. In addition, if there's the E/S-switch, it should be set to "S" I seem to remember.
Nice video though, makes me wanna buy a 2.6 (3.0 swapped?) as a daily!
Manual is nicer a dog-leg 5 speed which was quite a slick shifter as I recall. The one I drove had the cloth tartan seats. By today's standards the suspension feels soft but that the same with the E30 M3s of the era.
Is there a significant price difference in classified values for a manual versus Auto version?
Great video Jack, nice to see a little bit forgotten classic getting some time in the sun. It is a beautiful car and was aesthetically a nice cohesive design.
I am pretty surprised to see this car with an automatic gear box. I always thought they came with a manual gear box as standard? And back in the day: who would have wanted a sports car with automatics? That is beyond my understanding.
Amazing car :) I bought the 1.8L version and swapped it with the m111 2.3 kompressor to make it fun
I test drove an evo one of these when they were 2 years old as I loved the way they looked. Alas I also was VERY underwhelmed by it. Back then, merc just did not hold a candle to M cars IMHO I always felt they were struggling to compete even though I wanted to give them a chance.....but I ended up going with an M3.
I had a manual 2.3 16. Loved it.
Love the styling and individual rear seats 👌. That engine and gearbox combo though - uuuurrrgh
Drove a 190E auto to the Nardi factory in Italy & back via Belgium in the early 90,s at 100mph most of the way .Absolutely bullet proof.Finally got done for speeding on the way back to the ferry! Would quite like another.
Great cars and like you said also bargains. I would love to see you review the 500 E which had quite a lot of Porsche in it if you can get your hands on one.
I bought a Euro spec non sunroof houndstooth interior 63k km model from Japan here in Los Angeles.
The bad, automatic.
The good, it didn’t have the snot revved out of it
The better, I did a manual swap
And the self leveling can be adjusted
It’s no e30 M3, but I paid 1/4 of what an equivalent M3 would cost
You were able to register it here in California?
@@coldvaper no way Jose! It was either a Montana LLC, or drive it across state lines to Nevada, register it and then back.
@@doca8792 Well that sucks
4:10 self-leveling rear suspension makes sense, when assuming that the idea was to keep the grand touring features and that great multi link rear suspension geometry in optimal ride height when adding load. The car is pretty lightweight, even in Cosworth version not very stiff suspension. When you load it with passengers and luggage, without SLS the tail will sink remarkably and alter the suspension geometry and thus handling in hard driving unfavorably. In addition, that sinking tail will have an effect on the aerodynamics, particularly taking some weight off the wheels.
self leveling suspension was so the car would handle the same with passengers
A couple of points and then a question.
In Australia, the 2.5 wasn't imported, only the 2.3.
In the 2000 i imported a 2.5 from Japan.
Perfect condition. Uprated suspension and brabus exhaust.
Plenty of induction noise with a beautiful sound.
Thats why your comments made me smile.
If being used as a race car, these changes were perfect. As a road car, not so much.
Mercedes developed a beautiful tourer as it was.
The seats, the ride, the creature comforts.
Dont change it.
Sadly, i had a C36 at the time which put into perspective how far Mercrdes had come.
I used the Cossie less and less until i sold it to a classic racer.
My question:
For your standing start, did you start in drive ?
Do you know you can start in 1st gear, even though normally D will start in 2nd ?
I would certainly be doing a manual swap in that car. A friend had one at it was fantastic still one of the best cars I’ve ever driven. Unfortunately it was lease car so he didn’t keep it.
Lovely apart from the 5 foot camchain that is prone to wearing out...
Reminds me of landing in Greece or Morocco & getting in a taxi!
I'd the 2.5 with the dogleg manual. I bought it to flip, it made a decent profit. That said, it was a great drive and the build quality was excellent. Corrosion wise it needed a couple of minor adjustments to the paint, but that was it. Underneath it was excellent, things like the arb looked like new 😮
You can see the camber in the corners! Nice contact with the road.
such a great car....you know you are driving a real mercedes
Great video! I have been looking for guidelines -recommendations for buying. Would you recommend not buying one with above 200,000 km in the odometer? Thanks!
I would not say it's any bargain for the performance BUT it's a ton of fun and should hold value if not appreciate a bit
Always loved the look of these
back in 2000 i had the 2.3 16v with dogleg gearbox with an aftermarket exhaust, think it was a scorpion one but not sure, however it sounded awesome! I absolutely loved it! sold it a couple of years later for £3800 due to a divorce,
About to buy the standard 2.3 w201. Can’t wait.