A detail I like in Morrowind is how some of the Ashlanders speak in broken Cyrodiilic. It definitely gave the impression that they had another language they typically spoke, and that you were an outsider among them.
I never even considered how telepathy could alter the use of language. What an odd and useful tool that would be to have available. Thanks for the video!
I'm wagering "Imperial Common" aka English (Cyrodil's official language) is probably almost universal on Tamriel post 3rd Era. But it would likly be that each provence has its own traditional language that they simply dont use when speaking with adventurers out of simplicity. One of those "When in doubt, use Common" situations.
Yeah, I mean, imagine how strange it would be if you got to Whiterun just for that Guard at the gates to speak in Norse with you and both you and him be there for half an hour like "What?" *"Barahfhajjsdh"*
Me, an imperial arriving to Windhelm. Windhelm guard: Jævla troløse keiser. De tror oss alle lovløse dyr. Me: What? Windhelm guard: Hwaet? O you imperrial. Sorry milkdrinkerr, I speak not cyrrodilic.
It could be a combination of that and a mix of nobody actually speaks English, it's just for our benefit. I guess in their world a lot of languages understand each other, makes it easier for us players. Like the show Allo Allo. The French and the Germans speak French and German given they speak with the accents. The French will speak French to the Germans and vice versa so the characters in that world understand each other, despite speaking different languages to one another. But the actors speak English for the audience's benefit.
@@Xegethra The Cyrod Nedes (the Ayleids' Nedic slaves that counted Saint Al-Esh in their ranks) likely spoke Ayleidoon, and could more or less communicate with their Nord allies-- the Nords of the era are contemporary to Nerevar, so we know they likely knew both Ald Chimeris (an Aldmeris fork) and Falmeris (they had Snow Elf allies, enough to justify building the Snow Quarter in Windhelm to house their allies in the war against the Falmer) to a point, and we can use Ayleidoon and Falmeris to translate each other. Aldmeris, Falmeris, Ald Chimeris and Ayleidoon are all similar enough that you can make educated guesses on their meanings by cross-referencing them to each other, and given the reach of the Nords, when the Alessian Empire got together, they probably got raised in a bilingual way, knowing both Ayleidoon and Nordic, and that's likely what resulted in what's called Old Cyrodiilic as of Reman's time. The common language translated as English is convenience, but it seems Tamriel really DOES have an universal language that everyone is raised with, and their "ancestral" languages are a bit like how all Ainu know Japanese, but they're making a concerted effort to preserve their own language after it nearly died out, or like how the Welsh know Welsh but most know English too.
I love how you guys can always find a topic to talk about. I've spent countless hours watching all your guys videos, I have nothing bad to say about your channel and I recommend you guys to everyone. Much love 💙
As a theoretical linguist, I love this! I do often think about this topic especially whether the language of the fallen Falmer would be a dialect, or full language.
Considering the thieves guild questline suggests only a handful of scholars understand Falmer, odds are it's a full language. At least in relation to the languages spoken in the 4th era. If it were a dialect of one the extant language, that language and Falmer should have some degree of intelligibility, which would make understanding Falmer relatively easy. Also: If I understand the lore correctly, the ancient Falmer were seperated from other elves for considerable time, so even if their language was related to other elven languages there would have been more than enough time for Falmer to diverge from Aldmeris to turn it into a full language in its own right. But I'll admit: At least by the time of the game Skyrim Falmer has been extinct for thousands of years. So it's possible when it was still a living language it may have been a dialect of another language, but once Falmer became extinct - and thus would ahve stopped evolving, the language it was a dialect of would have continued to evolve and change to the point the formerly close relation would appear a lot more distant than it used to be. And there's the possibility that the lack of samples makes Falmer more obscure than its actual relations to other languages would imply. If you never get to see a language you can't familiarize yourself enough with it to realize how closely or distantly it's related to your own. The fact that Falmer uses its own alphabet might throw people off as well. How quickly Enthir translates Gallus' journal after he's given the rubbing of Calcelmo's stone would suggest that the differences aren't that great after all; but that could be the game sparing the player a tedious wait. Or maybe there's just a dragon break involved that allows mutually exclusive ideas to be equally true. Happens a lot in Skyrim lore...
@@BoxStudioExecutive So Mongolian or Hungarian are dialects and not languages because the countries there're mostly spoken in are landlocked and have no navies?
@@BoxStudioExecutive That would have been YOU. You did so by saying "Fool, the only difference between a dialect and a language is the latter has an army and a navy." All I did was point out foolish it is to distinguish languages from dialects based on whether they armies and navies or not, by giving obvious examples of languages that by your definition would be dialects because they don't have navies. Now good luck justifying how Mongolian can be a language despite it's lack of a navy without contradicting the condition set by you - namely that having an army *and* is what languages apart from dialects - or how Mongolian is a dialect of , I have no clue which language it's supposed to be a dialect of. And that's easy mode. If you think you successfully explained that, try to do the same Navajo (fyi: The Navajo people don't even have an army; or the full sovereignty rights a state would enjoy). Maybe then you see how much of a fool you were for making your original point.
I can see something fun being that when someone in ESO sets their chat box to their Racial language only other players of that race can see what they wrote, meanwhile everyone else only sees the text that was translated into the races text. Like how in WoW Horde and Alliance players can't understand the others written chats. Imagine having a 'Racial' option in the chat menu and when you select it only people who are playing the same race as you will be able to read what you wrote while everyone else would just see the message translated into the language of your race.
@@SuperGman117 In WoW chat doesn't cross-faction, meaning that Alliance and Horde players wont be able to understand each others written text messages in the world chat. It does this by translating what you write into one of the two dominant languages of the game depending on what faction you're in. I don't remember what they are called tho I just remember the mechanic.
The dragon language is called "Dovahzul" (dragon-voice) although I'm unsure if that's the canon name, as no one in Skyrim uses that term. Also, sload have their own language; it's what the book _N'Gasta! Kvata! Kvakis!_ is written in and because it doesn't get the same kind of T.A.R.D.I.S.-style translation as all the ehlnofex languages, I think it's fair to assume it's not an ehlnofex language.
@@dimitrirascalov5248 Only if you decode it. I don't remember the exact rules, but they're something like an "ahk" in sload is an "e" in esperanto (and other codes like that). Either way, the sload language isn't _exactly_ esperanto
I’m curious about literacy in Tamriel. Given how many books can be found even in the homes of peasants, it’s evident that most people can read. But how? There’s no schooling system available for all people, and I doubt people take the time to homeschool their children
It's probably similar to the question of literacy in the middle ages irl. Old estimates placed it at around 20% but current knowledge places it at at least 1 person per household in rural areas and significantly higher in urban areas. In ES universe I'd attribute it to temples and similar institutions playing a role on the average person's education.
Theres a book in ESO that mentions how most Nords can read, and do in fact tutor their children to read, given their proud history as poets. Lands like Cyrodiil would likely have school houses that we never saw in the games.
@@wea69420 Bingo: I dunno about the other Divines, but Chantries and Chapels of Julianos are SPECIFICALLY dedicated to act as literal schools, and they even provide the schooling system of High Rock, not just magical schooling. Jhunal for the Nords provides the same services, and though he's fallen into disfavor as of 4E201 because of meatheads in the Third Era, before he was considered the most important Hearth God to the warriors, because a good education means you know how to kill it. Also both the Altmer and Nords considered being able to write your own "oghma"-- a tome that's essentially a diary-autobiography as like, the MOST IMPORTANT THING TO PASS ON and A DUTY TO THEIR BLOODLINE, learning to write meant that you wouldn't be a nobody, so anyone with the slightest desire for fame or to make their ancestors proud would know it. The Dunmer seem to teach to read and write via both temples and from mentor to pupil, so it's less formal but just as important. Also you always have the self-taught people who learn on the go, too... And interesting means like Dwemer lexicons (which can give you the knowledge of something someone else knew) and mnemospores, which seem to transmit the knowledge... And also mysticism, which is basically the magic equivalent of reading an in-depth encyclopedia entry on what you're mystically analyzing, and infers that you might be able to just learn what something is written like by looking it up in the reality encyclopedia.
You're forgetting a key piece to all of this that makes it very simple. Everyone in the Elder Scrolls universe, regardless of race, species or geographic location is birthed with a Babel Fish already in their ear.
I'm fluent in Irish and from the southern most part of Ireland, but when I travel up the country and find an Irish speaking people, they may as well be speaking Scottish Gaelic as far as I can tell. We have to many variations here.....
@@grayfox6930 ya dude I'm from cork which is down south but if I was to talk to someone from Donegal (in English or Irish) I wouldn't have a clue what they are saying
@@cianos9011 Heh, same in Belgium lol. You can't go 10 km and someone already has a different accent. Still understandable but remarkable none the less since it's such a tiny country.
I've read that before languages were standardised a Frenchman from Marseilles would have a hard time understanding a Frenchman from Paris, same goes for an Englishman from York vs one from London, High German vs low German (some dialects in Bavaria and lower Austria are quite distinct to this day) etc. Also beyond Europe, Morroccan Arabic is very different from Lebanese Arabic, which is different from Egyptian Arabic which is different from Saudi Arabic etc. Language and dialects truly are a fascinating subject lol
Speaking of languages, a curious thing happened to me. I live in Mexico but only play games in English and Skyrim was one of the first games I digitally purchased from the xbox store but by default, the games that get downloaded come in Spanish because it doesn't give you an option to change the language so most of the game is in Spanish but when I downloaded the dlc the dlc content comes in English which makes the entire thing weird. Like anything related to Dawnguard the characters will say in English and I can clearly see when they recycled vanilla sounds in dawn guard or added lines to the base game. Like you might not have noticed that Lydia gets new lines when you get the dlc as opposed to the base game. Like in my game she says everything in Spanish but sometimes she would say "I'm at your command".
Hey fudgemuppet I've been a fan for about 4 years and I want to say thanks for the countless hours you've entertained me keep up the great work and also hi from California
As well, the Dragon tongue is spoken by the Draugr, both when they are fighting you, and when they are wandering if you are stealthy. So Dovahzul clearly was in use by the early Nords, at least those who were members of the Dragon cult. But one would assume that if one found an even older Draugr or spirit, they would speak Old Atmoran. Which is really exciting to think about. It's one of the reasons I really want to see an Atmora DLC in some future Elderscrolls game.
FudgeMuppet I don't know if any of you have played assassin's creed but when a character is mot talking directly to you you end up hearing it in what ever language that games time period and region is set in. I think that would be a good idea for any future elder scrolls games to follow also
The Shalidor's Library books from ESO could be argued to exist outside of time to an extent. For an example, you can find The Lusty Argonian Maid which was written by a character that you actually personally meet in Morrowind.
Not only would I like to see more unique written language but I would also like to hear it in game. Imagine what the original snow elves/Falmer must have sounded like. I mean the Elven language in The Lord of the Rings is written pretty fancily and it sounds nice as well I believe it's based off of Gaelic but, what would the elves in the Elder Scrolls sound like?
It is interesting to note how naming conventions work as well: Imperials have Latin names, and Bretons have French names. The Reachmen on the other hand have Celtic names. Considering that French is derived from the Vulgar Latin of the previously Celtic speaking region of Gaul, we could suggest the Bretons have had heavy Cyrodilic influence, replacing a Celtic style language with the Latin style language of the Imperials. It's worth noting that Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic are very similar, and some scholars go as far as to group them into a Italo-Celtic subfamily. This would suggest a similar situation with the development of Cyrodilic and Breton languages from the Nedic language. If that is the case, we can assume a Grimm's law like sound change that would have distinguished the Atmoran language (and now Nordic) from the Nedic tongue.
If the studio were to develop the Bretic language, it would be based on a mixture of Norman (mostly with modern Bretic), Celtic groups, Gaulish, Breton and maybe some Gaelic languages
I remember first watching Mike and Scott when they had 5k views. Now theyre at over 800k. Keep up the good work, I love listening about all of the lore and your builds always give me extra hours in Skyrim And Fallout. Much love from Philippines
That would be a very amazing addition to the elder scrolls immersion. Imagine being able to unlock different languages in the speech tree with perk points. You wouldn’t be able to understand them until you unlocked it. That would be so cool!
Scott, nicely done. I really enjoyed this one, and can't wait to see more on this subject. I'd also enjoy the chance the hear the spoken languages of the Elder Scrolls, if only to help with immersion into the world, and to enhance the sense of traveling through a truly diverse and colorful world of people, and culture.
someone should mod this in for some amazing immersion, i.e. include language primer books to allow the pc to understand some common words in other languages. doesn't even have to be a complete translation, or have the player memorize words like "buy", "sell", "heal", etc but in Argonian. could even throw in a little math to account for differing numeral bases which come from different languages, i.e. a scimitar costing 50gp but 50 in Argonian might actually "translate" to 75 in cyrodillic .
Great video! I never actually thought of this but it seems so obvious now..I wonder the logistics of a mod using different language packs to have different races speak different real languages.. If not for crazy voice over work levels id say create new ones for them as best as we can with the examples we can find.. Hmm.
I would love to play an Elder Scrolls where they have different languages present. Like to properly talk to some people you need to learn some of they're language.
I would love to have the option for having an ES game with the native languages. Kinda like how in Monster Hunter you can change the audio to that of the actual native language.
I kinda want The Elder Scrolls VI to have like a learning system where your character doesn't know any other language but their own and Cyridillic, and because of that you'll have to learn different languages by reading books or being taught. The people of Tamriel would speak in their native tounge if they so chose and when your character learns this it will sound english to us or it would subtitlted into english.
For simplification purposes, English is used, though is unlikely to be how they would actually talk. It's common for fantasy writers to name the language(s) used, though they are considered 'translated' versions of what they said into the reader's language. It adds a whole new layer of mystery, such as what sounds they use ad in what combinations.
As always, there is the game tamriel and the lore tamriel. The same hapens with the size of the continent, if we consider that the size of Oblivion and Skyrim are their canon size tamriel would be just an island, not a continent. (Of course, you are not going to Create a map with the size of Spain or France, that would be impossible) And the same happened with the language, but it would be cool if they make things like a khajit language or an altmer language for this races in future games that would make the world even more realistic.
Funnily, a few hours ago, Nate uploaded a video about Markarth facts, and one of the facts included comparison between Falmer and Dwemer language, which the community has actually been able to translate.
I don't know if it was suggested already but one thing I would like in the next Elder Scrolls/Fallout Game are Bandit/Raider raiding parties returning to their base, imagine you just defeated the leader and are exiting with your loot and then you are surrounded by half a dozen bandits/raiders, who have just returned and want retribution on you. Or you could see such a party pludering a crypt, building or dead traveling merchant caravan. It would add much more life into the world.
Would have loved it if foreigners could be caught speaking their native, or homeland language between themselves. Could be great if your choice of race, would mean understanding it. Or if you could even choose your homeland, for your native tongue. Imagine a scenario where a group of Dunmer might not be configurable talking around another Dunmer, unless they know him. Though might just speak around an orc, cause they don't think he would be able to understand, only he does cause he was born in Morrowind.
Since the next elder scrolls is likely in Hammerfell, it would be cool to have a quest where someone doesn't speak English and the player needs to have a translator
I love learning about other languages. I even get a kick out of a mod where one of the characters will use Valerian words when talking to a dragon. Not exactly immersive but still fun.
One known dragon loanword in Nordic is Thu'um as many Nords do seem to use both it and the Cyrodiilic word Shout interchangably. No telling how many more there are.
From the Elder Scrolls wiki: "The Khajiit, along with the Argonians, inhabited Tamriel long before the elves arrived (which could mean the two beast races are possibly native to Tamriel, unlike humans or mer, which migrated to Tamriel. However, some sources say life originated in Tamriel)."
I use this mod called “Language Diversity in Skyrim” where you can change the language of different races based on voice type and specific voices. All of the Human races are default English, then I made Daedra, High elves and Wood elves speak German (because it’s very similar to Old English). Next I made Dark Elves and Argonians speak French, because it’s very similar to German and the cultural overlap of both peoples. Orcs are Russian because it’s strong and similar to French and German. Khajiit are Spanish as they aren’t allowed inside the City walls and Spanish has a lot of Islamic or “Desert” words (read a history book).
Also another language that was fairly preserved is Old Norse. It's not an exact continuation, and there are now some cultural differences, but you have Icelandic, Faroese, and the Orkney language as examples of quite closely related tongues.
It would be cool to see you get to choose which language your character can speak, and then that affect how you hear languages in the game. For example, I play a Dunmer and choose that I am fluent in Dunmeric and have a relatively good knowledge of most of the other languages, but don't know nordic at all. Then in game, those speaking Dunmeric would sound like fluent english, and then most of the other language would sound like english but maybe a bit broken, but then if an npc was speaking nordic it would be completely foreign. And then if I go do a different play through where I know different languages it all changes, and then maybe throughout the game I can learn a language. Obviously this would be a big task as it would essentially require 3x the voice lines (original in-universe language, fluent localized language, broken localized language) but it would be really cool to see.
It is a interesting topic, especially since I'm sure I'm not the only one who has fantasized about going into the world of Elder Scrolls and wondered if I'd even been able to communicate lol.
I feel like elder scrolls series would feel so much more magical if there were different languages. I can imagine a No man sky like learning their languages. Just have a conversation with different races and steadily learning their language.
Hi 👋🏻! While definitely not a remotely serious delver into other languages, I do enjoy finding out tidbits from them. I was that kid who had books on things like English/Klingon or sub that with Tolkien Elvish languages or even the Egyptian Book of the Dead having hieroglyphics, the ancient Egyptian words they represented, sounded out in English letters & an English translation for the meanings of those words. I never came close to learning all these things, but I nerded out over them as an inconsistent hobby, back in the day. I still love general discussions on topics like these, though can’t say I would enjoy the minutiae of more scholarly pursuits into it. I think some kind of enlightenment on the various languages would be interesting, without bogging down gameplay or forcing one to get into it. Whether in actual books outside the games or in little ways in game, I would be fascinated. Thank you for bringing it up with this video!
I’d be quite interested to have a video where you guys declare your favourite races? I know dark elves are Scott’s favourite race but how about Michael and Drew? For me it’s the Orsimer and Dunmer but I also do like the Bosmer.
Perhaps the cast of voice actors used in each game (seeing how there is a different cast for each game) can further be be used to represent how much a language can change. This can’t really be used in the first few games to come out seeing as they all take place a few years apart but for Skyrim to eso that can definitely be used.
beth should really get guys who have good idea of how languages work and has a knack for making conlangs.. the Dovazul is soo shallow(like english phrases translating word for word with grammatical order unchanged) that it's embarrassing.
For immersion that I imagine situations it's like you see in sci-fi or the Warcraft movie. Everything is translated to English but it's implied they're often not speaking English in some way. This is an interesting topic though.
Seeing as Talos was the one to conquer Tamriel, and Talos was from Skyrim, modern Tamrielic would probably be an evolved Nord-Cyrodilic dialect. Ulfric and his boys could view old Tamrielic as their traditional language and therefore proudly speak Tamrielic today. Plus, there are probably very few scholars who can transcribe Ancient Nord or Atmoran. The regional language of Skyrim is probably just a Tamrielic dialect not to different from proper Tamrielic, and given that Ulfric is a Jarl and part of the nobility class of Skyrim, and has been his whole life, he probably grew up around people who spoke only proper Tamrielic.
Great video, I really find it interesting when people don't like newer words or definitions. If you could go back in time to 1400AD in say England you might get by speaking English. Any earlier it would be difficult you would have to learn it like a new language.
The one question I’ve ALWAYS wondered. I still remember the first day I played a Elder scroll game, I thought to myself: what was the native Language of redguards, Bretons, and nords?
In regards to Latin: Classical Latin (actual Latin the Romans spoke) is almost never spoken now... probably even since those days. Only scholars and linguists probably speak it still. Ecclesiastical Latin (Church Latin) is the mutation of Latin by the Catholic Church... and almost sounds nothing like Classical Latin when spoken. _CÆSAR_ would sound very different when pronounced in Classical from Ecclesiastical Latin.
You can see this in the Modern Age. Back in the 90s we used to use terms such a cool sweet hot and radical all things we like oh, now hardly anyone uses that terminology to describe something they thought was really neat. And another 20 years will probably have new terms for everything we say again.
My personal belief is that like the elder scrolls the dragon born hears what ever language they are fluent in thus why when you change your game Language everyone starts talking in said language and though my theories have some holes in them like why are the other people talking to each other also understand your language if maybe that person shouldn’t, I think it’s still something to think about.
It would be super cool to have a mod for one of the games now (or maybe a setting in TES6) where the dialogue is replaced with their native language, and you had to pick up on words and phrases realistically.
Hello I’m a big fan of your channel and I love your Skyrim and Fallout builds so I was wondering if you could do a modded or vanilla Lord of the Rings inspired Ringwraith build for The 5th installment of the Elder Scrolls series. Sincerely, a big fan!
I am from Texas and I can tell you that there are at least 10 full languages spoken and countless dialects and thats just in about a 10 mile area around me and I barely understand what comes out of my own mouth half the time
3:25 Elder scrolls online actually takes place 600 years before the events of Oblivion and morrowjnd and almost 800 years before Skyrim. ESO doesn’t take place a 1000 years before the events of Skyrim
Actually cyrodiilic and the language of the bretons are mostly based on elven languages. It's on one of the lorebooks. Ayleid and Falmer writing characters are very similar to the Altmer ones.
Regarding the elves, your thinking makes sense. However, I would argue that their language probably would change depending on the rate of reproduction. Language changes gradually over generations with young people as linguistic innovators.
Like all of them are the same and have no development whatsoever. Barely any grammer, no differences in phonology (all of them are just english but put together differently). Like, languages are the best part (for me) about fantasy! Tolkien made so many languages for his books! It's so cool, but no... the Elder Scrolls languages are sad. It makes me sad...
A detail I like in Morrowind is how some of the Ashlanders speak in broken Cyrodiilic. It definitely gave the impression that they had another language they typically spoke, and that you were an outsider among them.
I never even considered how telepathy could alter the use of language. What an odd and useful tool that would be to have available.
Thanks for the video!
40 years from now:
Fudgemuppet:
*What language do the ants on the stump in Riverwood speak?*
Formic with a Stumpish Accent
I'm wagering "Imperial Common" aka English (Cyrodil's official language) is probably almost universal on Tamriel post 3rd Era. But it would likly be that each provence has its own traditional language that they simply dont use when speaking with adventurers out of simplicity. One of those "When in doubt, use Common" situations.
Yeah, I mean, imagine how strange it would be if you got to Whiterun just for that Guard at the gates to speak in Norse with you and both you and him be there for half an hour like "What?" *"Barahfhajjsdh"*
Me, an imperial arriving to Windhelm.
Windhelm guard: Jævla troløse keiser. De tror oss alle lovløse dyr.
Me: What?
Windhelm guard: Hwaet? O you imperrial. Sorry milkdrinkerr, I speak not cyrrodilic.
It could be a combination of that and a mix of nobody actually speaks English, it's just for our benefit. I guess in their world a lot of languages understand each other, makes it easier for us players. Like the show Allo Allo. The French and the Germans speak French and German given they speak with the accents. The French will speak French to the Germans and vice versa so the characters in that world understand each other, despite speaking different languages to one another. But the actors speak English for the audience's benefit.
Shut up N'wah!
@@Xegethra The Cyrod Nedes (the Ayleids' Nedic slaves that counted Saint Al-Esh in their ranks) likely spoke Ayleidoon, and could more or less communicate with their Nord allies-- the Nords of the era are contemporary to Nerevar, so we know they likely knew both Ald Chimeris (an Aldmeris fork) and Falmeris (they had Snow Elf allies, enough to justify building the Snow Quarter in Windhelm to house their allies in the war against the Falmer) to a point, and we can use Ayleidoon and Falmeris to translate each other.
Aldmeris, Falmeris, Ald Chimeris and Ayleidoon are all similar enough that you can make educated guesses on their meanings by cross-referencing them to each other, and given the reach of the Nords, when the Alessian Empire got together, they probably got raised in a bilingual way, knowing both Ayleidoon and Nordic, and that's likely what resulted in what's called Old Cyrodiilic as of Reman's time.
The common language translated as English is convenience, but it seems Tamriel really DOES have an universal language that everyone is raised with, and their "ancestral" languages are a bit like how all Ainu know Japanese, but they're making a concerted effort to preserve their own language after it nearly died out, or like how the Welsh know Welsh but most know English too.
I love how you guys can always find a topic to talk about. I've spent countless hours watching all your guys videos, I have nothing bad to say about your channel and I recommend you guys to everyone. Much love 💙
I'm Irish and speak Gaeilge (Irish) and when Scott pulled the 'Sciathán Leathair' I was shook
As a theoretical linguist, I love this! I do often think about this topic especially whether the language of the fallen Falmer would be a dialect, or full language.
Considering the thieves guild questline suggests only a handful of scholars understand Falmer, odds are it's a full language. At least in relation to the languages spoken in the 4th era. If it were a dialect of one the extant language, that language and Falmer should have some degree of intelligibility, which would make understanding Falmer relatively easy. Also: If I understand the lore correctly, the ancient Falmer were seperated from other elves for considerable time, so even if their language was related to other elven languages there would have been more than enough time for Falmer to diverge from Aldmeris to turn it into a full language in its own right.
But I'll admit: At least by the time of the game Skyrim Falmer has been extinct for thousands of years. So it's possible when it was still a living language it may have been a dialect of another language, but once Falmer became extinct - and thus would ahve stopped evolving, the language it was a dialect of would have continued to evolve and change to the point the formerly close relation would appear a lot more distant than it used to be. And there's the possibility that the lack of samples makes Falmer more obscure than its actual relations to other languages would imply. If you never get to see a language you can't familiarize yourself enough with it to realize how closely or distantly it's related to your own. The fact that Falmer uses its own alphabet might throw people off as well. How quickly Enthir translates Gallus' journal after he's given the rubbing of Calcelmo's stone would suggest that the differences aren't that great after all; but that could be the game sparing the player a tedious wait. Or maybe there's just a dragon break involved that allows mutually exclusive ideas to be equally true. Happens a lot in Skyrim lore...
Fool, the only difference between a dialect and a language is the latter has an army and a navy.
@@BoxStudioExecutive So Mongolian or Hungarian are dialects and not languages because the countries there're mostly spoken in are landlocked and have no navies?
@@MrAranton Who contends that they are dialects? Nobody. Your point is null and void.
@@BoxStudioExecutive That would have been YOU. You did so by saying "Fool, the only difference between a dialect and a language is the latter has an army and a navy." All I did was point out foolish it is to distinguish languages from dialects based on whether they armies and navies or not, by giving obvious examples of languages that by your definition would be dialects because they don't have navies. Now good luck justifying how Mongolian can be a language despite it's lack of a navy without contradicting the condition set by you - namely that having an army *and* is what languages apart from dialects - or how Mongolian is a dialect of , I have no clue which language it's supposed to be a dialect of. And that's easy mode. If you think you successfully explained that, try to do the same Navajo (fyi: The Navajo people don't even have an army; or the full sovereignty rights a state would enjoy). Maybe then you see how much of a fool you were for making your original point.
I can see something fun being that when someone in ESO sets their chat box to their Racial language only other players of that race can see what they wrote, meanwhile everyone else only sees the text that was translated into the races text.
Like how in WoW Horde and Alliance players can't understand the others written chats.
Imagine having a 'Racial' option in the chat menu and when you select it only people who are playing the same race as you will be able to read what you wrote while everyone else would just see the message translated into the language of your race.
How does WoW handle it? Like what exactly does it do to the text?
@@SuperGman117 In WoW chat doesn't cross-faction, meaning that Alliance and Horde players wont be able to understand each others written text messages in the world chat. It does this by translating what you write into one of the two dominant languages of the game depending on what faction you're in. I don't remember what they are called tho I just remember the mechanic.
I do that sometimes with Yoku
Kek. I believe WoW basically reciphers letters, as based on KEK being LOL
The dragon language is called "Dovahzul" (dragon-voice) although I'm unsure if that's the canon name, as no one in Skyrim uses that term.
Also, sload have their own language; it's what the book _N'Gasta! Kvata! Kvakis!_ is written in and because it doesn't get the same kind of T.A.R.D.I.S.-style translation as all the ehlnofex languages, I think it's fair to assume it's not an ehlnofex language.
The language of the Sload is actually real world esperanto
@@dimitrirascalov5248 Only if you decode it. I don't remember the exact rules, but they're something like an "ahk" in sload is an "e" in esperanto (and other codes like that). Either way, the sload language isn't _exactly_ esperanto
I learned that dovahzul meant dragon tongue, eh oh well. Big difference.
And so continues my worldbuilding adventure with Fudgemuppet by my side
Beautifull comment!
I’m curious about literacy in Tamriel. Given how many books can be found even in the homes of peasants, it’s evident that most people can read. But how? There’s no schooling system available for all people, and I doubt people take the time to homeschool their children
It's probably similar to the question of literacy in the middle ages irl. Old estimates placed it at around 20% but current knowledge places it at at least 1 person per household in rural areas and significantly higher in urban areas. In ES universe I'd attribute it to temples and similar institutions playing a role on the average person's education.
Theres a book in ESO that mentions how most Nords can read, and do in fact tutor their children to read, given their proud history as poets. Lands like Cyrodiil would likely have school houses that we never saw in the games.
@@wea69420 Bingo: I dunno about the other Divines, but Chantries and Chapels of Julianos are SPECIFICALLY dedicated to act as literal schools, and they even provide the schooling system of High Rock, not just magical schooling.
Jhunal for the Nords provides the same services, and though he's fallen into disfavor as of 4E201 because of meatheads in the Third Era, before he was considered the most important Hearth God to the warriors, because a good education means you know how to kill it.
Also both the Altmer and Nords considered being able to write your own "oghma"-- a tome that's essentially a diary-autobiography as like, the MOST IMPORTANT THING TO PASS ON and A DUTY TO THEIR BLOODLINE, learning to write meant that you wouldn't be a nobody, so anyone with the slightest desire for fame or to make their ancestors proud would know it.
The Dunmer seem to teach to read and write via both temples and from mentor to pupil, so it's less formal but just as important.
Also you always have the self-taught people who learn on the go, too... And interesting means like Dwemer lexicons (which can give you the knowledge of something someone else knew) and mnemospores, which seem to transmit the knowledge... And also mysticism, which is basically the magic equivalent of reading an in-depth encyclopedia entry on what you're mystically analyzing, and infers that you might be able to just learn what something is written like by looking it up in the reality encyclopedia.
@armomoose6874 Children didn't exist until Skyrim I'm pretty sure, so there was kinda literally zero reason.
The temples teach youngins how to read
You're forgetting a key piece to all of this that makes it very simple. Everyone in the Elder Scrolls universe, regardless of race, species or geographic location is birthed with a Babel Fish already in their ear.
Awesome! I bet no one else thought of that either. I didn't and I have played Skyrim through easily 10 times
As a linguist I always wondered about the languages of Tamriel.
Linguist gang!!
I'm fluent in Irish and from the southern most part of Ireland, but when I travel up the country and find an Irish speaking people, they may as well be speaking Scottish Gaelic as far as I can tell. We have to many variations here.....
I know, on my light studying of ireland I'm surprised of how diverse in speech and accents one island can be.
@@grayfox6930 ya dude I'm from cork which is down south but if I was to talk to someone from Donegal (in English or Irish) I wouldn't have a clue what they are saying
@@cianos9011 Heh, same in Belgium lol. You can't go 10 km and someone already has a different accent. Still understandable but remarkable none the less since it's such a tiny country.
I've read that before languages were standardised a Frenchman from Marseilles would have a hard time understanding a Frenchman from Paris, same goes for an Englishman from York vs one from London, High German vs low German (some dialects in Bavaria and lower Austria are quite distinct to this day) etc. Also beyond Europe, Morroccan Arabic is very different from Lebanese Arabic, which is different from Egyptian Arabic which is different from Saudi Arabic etc.
Language and dialects truly are a fascinating subject lol
same apply in Scotland we got Scots that talk like welsh cthulhu and Glasgow weegiee completely back words
love your videos! thanks for putting in so much time and effort!
Thank you very much!!!!
Speaking of languages, a curious thing happened to me. I live in Mexico but only play games in English and Skyrim was one of the first games I digitally purchased from the xbox store but by default, the games that get downloaded come in Spanish because it doesn't give you an option to change the language so most of the game is in Spanish but when I downloaded the dlc the dlc content comes in English which makes the entire thing weird. Like anything related to Dawnguard the characters will say in English and I can clearly see when they recycled vanilla sounds in dawn guard or added lines to the base game. Like you might not have noticed that Lydia gets new lines when you get the dlc as opposed to the base game. Like in my game she says everything in Spanish but sometimes she would say "I'm at your command".
Wait, really? That's a hilarious oversight.
There was Gaeilge in this and that makes me happy.
This was something I haven't really thought about from a Lore point of view. I enjoyed this!
Language is a living a breathing thing. Yes, that's right. breaathe.... inhale, exhale.... FUS RO DAH!
Hey fudgemuppet I've been a fan for about 4 years and I want to say thanks for the countless hours you've entertained me keep up the great work and also hi from California
As well, the Dragon tongue is spoken by the Draugr, both when they are fighting you, and when they are wandering if you are stealthy. So Dovahzul clearly was in use by the early Nords, at least those who were members of the Dragon cult. But one would assume that if one found an even older Draugr or spirit, they would speak Old Atmoran. Which is really exciting to think about. It's one of the reasons I really want to see an Atmora DLC in some future Elderscrolls game.
That could be an interesting another Skyrim chapter within the Elder Scrolls Online
FudgeMuppet I don't know if any of you have played assassin's creed but when a character is mot talking directly to you you end up hearing it in what ever language that games time period and region is set in. I think that would be a good idea for any future elder scrolls games to follow also
The Shalidor's Library books from ESO could be argued to exist outside of time to an extent. For an example, you can find The Lusty Argonian Maid which was written by a character that you actually personally meet in Morrowind.
"I'm Thurindil, son of Julianos and Mohi-Titona, Queen of Akavir. These slugs climbing my spine itch something fierce. Like to dance?"
Not only would I like to see more unique written language but I would also like to hear it in game. Imagine what the original snow elves/Falmer must have sounded like. I mean the Elven language in The Lord of the Rings is written pretty fancily and it sounds nice as well I believe it's based off of Gaelic but, what would the elves in the Elder Scrolls sound like?
I actually did some research on the redguard language and it's super interesting
fleeze92 Tro Yoku (True Yoku)
I hope people who are fascinated by Elder Scrolls history and language get inspired to learn about real world history and language
It is interesting to note how naming conventions work as well: Imperials have Latin names, and Bretons have French names. The Reachmen on the other hand have Celtic names. Considering that French is derived from the Vulgar Latin of the previously Celtic speaking region of Gaul, we could suggest the Bretons have had heavy Cyrodilic influence, replacing a Celtic style language with the Latin style language of the Imperials. It's worth noting that Proto-Celtic and Proto-Italic are very similar, and some scholars go as far as to group them into a Italo-Celtic subfamily. This would suggest a similar situation with the development of Cyrodilic and Breton languages from the Nedic language. If that is the case, we can assume a Grimm's law like sound change that would have distinguished the Atmoran language (and now Nordic) from the Nedic tongue.
If the studio were to develop the Bretic language, it would be based on a mixture of Norman (mostly with modern Bretic), Celtic groups, Gaulish, Breton and maybe some Gaelic languages
Literally started running a homebrew TES table top rpg a few days ago, so this is invaluable. Thank you
I remember first watching Mike and Scott when they had 5k views. Now theyre at over 800k. Keep up the good work, I love listening about all of the lore and your builds always give me extra hours in Skyrim And Fallout. Much love from Philippines
That would be a very amazing addition to the elder scrolls immersion. Imagine being able to unlock different languages in the speech tree with perk points. You wouldn’t be able to understand them until you unlocked it. That would be so cool!
I think Daggerfall had something like that for monsters at least
@@gwest3644 cool. Thanks!!
Scott, nicely done. I really enjoyed this one, and can't wait to see more on this subject. I'd also enjoy the chance the hear the spoken languages of the Elder Scrolls, if only to help with immersion into the world, and to enhance the sense of traveling through a truly diverse and colorful world of people, and culture.
This level of lore exploration and detail-diving is why I love FudgeMuppet.
someone should mod this in for some amazing immersion, i.e. include language primer books to allow the pc to understand some common words in other languages. doesn't even have to be a complete translation, or have the player memorize words like "buy", "sell", "heal", etc but in Argonian. could even throw in a little math to account for differing numeral bases which come from different languages, i.e. a scimitar costing 50gp but 50 in Argonian might actually "translate" to 75 in cyrodillic .
I love this! The languages of Elder Scrolls is something I've been wondering about. Thank you!
Great video! I never actually thought of this but it seems so obvious now..I wonder the logistics of a mod using different language packs to have different races speak different real languages.. If not for crazy voice over work levels id say create new ones for them as best as we can with the examples we can find.. Hmm.
6:05 omg, he remembered Romanian.
Good for you.
I would love to play an Elder Scrolls where they have different languages present. Like to properly talk to some people you need to learn some of they're language.
Ze Raven Only in Argonia, I see Jel language is spoken and sung. Also in Elsweyr where there some sample of Ta’agra language
Isn't that what Daggerfall did? You could even learn to speak Daedric too. Granted, it should totally come back.
I would love to have the option for having an ES game with the native languages.
Kinda like how in Monster Hunter you can change the audio to that of the actual native language.
Years later and this guy still has topics to teach us, I honestly appreciate and salute you Scott
I kinda want The Elder Scrolls VI to have like a learning system where your character doesn't know any other language but their own and Cyridillic, and because of that you'll have to learn different languages by reading books or being taught. The people of Tamriel would speak in their native tounge if they so chose and when your character learns this it will sound english to us or it would subtitlted into english.
For simplification purposes, English is used, though is unlikely to be how they would actually talk. It's common for fantasy writers to name the language(s) used, though they are considered 'translated' versions of what they said into the reader's language. It adds a whole new layer of mystery, such as what sounds they use ad in what combinations.
As always, there is the game tamriel and the lore tamriel.
The same hapens with the size of the continent, if we consider that the size of Oblivion and Skyrim are their canon size tamriel would be just an island, not a continent. (Of course, you are not going to Create a map with the size of Spain or France, that would be impossible)
And the same happened with the language, but it would be cool if they make things like a khajit language or an altmer language for this races in future games that would make the world even more realistic.
Funnily, a few hours ago, Nate uploaded a video about Markarth facts, and one of the facts included comparison between Falmer and Dwemer language, which the community has actually been able to translate.
Xolcm I watched that today, too. 😁
In 2220s there will be conventions about TES lingvo "As deduced from entries XLII and XLIII to the series".
Wouldn't that be fun.
What about making a video about the foods of Tamriel, like origins of sweetroll and such
I don't know if it was suggested already but one thing I would like in the next Elder Scrolls/Fallout Game are Bandit/Raider raiding parties returning to their base, imagine you just defeated the leader and are exiting with your loot and then you are surrounded by half a dozen bandits/raiders, who have just returned and want retribution on you. Or you could see such a party pludering a crypt, building or dead traveling merchant caravan. It would add much more life into the world.
My favorite video games series and my favorite real life topic. Awesome video
Would have loved it if foreigners could be caught speaking their native, or homeland language between themselves. Could be great if your choice of race, would mean understanding it. Or if you could even choose your homeland, for your native tongue.
Imagine a scenario where a group of Dunmer might not be configurable talking around another Dunmer, unless they know him. Though might just speak around an orc, cause they don't think he would be able to understand, only he does cause he was born in Morrowind.
Since the next elder scrolls is likely in Hammerfell, it would be cool to have a quest where someone doesn't speak English and the player needs to have a translator
I love learning about other languages. I even get a kick out of a mod where one of the characters will use Valerian words when talking to a dragon. Not exactly immersive but still fun.
One known dragon loanword in Nordic is Thu'um as many Nords do seem to use both it and the Cyrodiilic word Shout interchangably. No telling how many more there are.
From the Elder Scrolls wiki: "The Khajiit, along with the Argonians, inhabited Tamriel long before the elves arrived (which could mean the two beast races are possibly native to Tamriel, unlike humans or mer, which migrated to Tamriel. However, some sources say life originated in Tamriel)."
I use this mod called “Language Diversity in Skyrim” where you can change the language of different races based on voice type and specific voices.
All of the Human races are default English, then I made Daedra, High elves and Wood elves speak German (because it’s very similar to Old English).
Next I made Dark Elves and Argonians speak French, because it’s very similar to German and the cultural overlap of both peoples.
Orcs are Russian because it’s strong and similar to French and German.
Khajiit are Spanish as they aren’t allowed inside the City walls and Spanish has a lot of Islamic or “Desert” words (read a history book).
Also another language that was fairly preserved is Old Norse. It's not an exact continuation, and there are now some cultural differences, but you have Icelandic, Faroese, and the Orkney language as examples of quite closely related tongues.
It would be cool to see you get to choose which language your character can speak, and then that affect how you hear languages in the game. For example, I play a Dunmer and choose that I am fluent in Dunmeric and have a relatively good knowledge of most of the other languages, but don't know nordic at all. Then in game, those speaking Dunmeric would sound like fluent english, and then most of the other language would sound like english but maybe a bit broken, but then if an npc was speaking nordic it would be completely foreign. And then if I go do a different play through where I know different languages it all changes, and then maybe throughout the game I can learn a language. Obviously this would be a big task as it would essentially require 3x the voice lines (original in-universe language, fluent localized language, broken localized language) but it would be really cool to see.
Very interesting topic.
The background music is beautiful.
It is a interesting topic, especially since I'm sure I'm not the only one who has fantasized about going into the world of Elder Scrolls and wondered if I'd even been able to communicate lol.
I feel like elder scrolls series would feel so much more magical if there were different languages. I can imagine a No man sky like learning their languages. Just have a conversation with different races and steadily learning their language.
Hi 👋🏻! While definitely not a remotely serious delver into other languages, I do enjoy finding out tidbits from them. I was that kid who had books on things like English/Klingon or sub that with Tolkien Elvish languages or even the Egyptian Book of the Dead having hieroglyphics, the ancient Egyptian words they represented, sounded out in English letters & an English translation for the meanings of those words. I never came close to learning all these things, but I nerded out over them as an inconsistent hobby, back in the day. I still love general discussions on topics like these, though can’t say I would enjoy the minutiae of more scholarly pursuits into it. I think some kind of enlightenment on the various languages would be interesting, without bogging down gameplay or forcing one to get into it. Whether in actual books outside the games or in little ways in game, I would be fascinated. Thank you for bringing it up with this video!
I’d be quite interested to have a video where you guys declare your favourite races? I know dark elves are Scott’s favourite race but how about Michael and Drew? For me it’s the Orsimer and Dunmer but I also do like the Bosmer.
Perhaps the cast of voice actors used in each game (seeing how there is a different cast for each game) can further be be used to represent how much a language can change. This can’t really be used in the first few games to come out seeing as they all take place a few years apart but for Skyrim to eso that can definitely be used.
thank you i love these videos
I needed this!
beth should really get guys who have good idea of how languages work and has a knack for making conlangs.. the Dovazul is soo shallow(like english phrases translating word for word with grammatical order unchanged) that it's embarrassing.
Can’t wait for Elderscrolls 6
Last time I was this early, Potema hadn't heard of wolves.
The dragon lanquage is referd to as dovazul ( dova-zool)
For immersion that I imagine situations it's like you see in sci-fi or the Warcraft movie. Everything is translated to English but it's implied they're often not speaking English in some way. This is an interesting topic though.
Bethesda should release all these languages vocabulary and grammar and also add native language option to TES 6 and 7 and so on
The dragon language is called Dovahzul
If you came here to hear about Daedric: 9:42
Love the rich background scenes woven into this story. Where were they from? I think I only recognized one: Gray Cowl.
Seeing as Talos was the one to conquer Tamriel, and Talos was from Skyrim, modern Tamrielic would probably be an evolved Nord-Cyrodilic dialect. Ulfric and his boys could view old Tamrielic as their traditional language and therefore proudly speak Tamrielic today. Plus, there are probably very few scholars who can transcribe Ancient Nord or Atmoran. The regional language of Skyrim is probably just a Tamrielic dialect not to different from proper Tamrielic, and given that Ulfric is a Jarl and part of the nobility class of Skyrim, and has been his whole life, he probably grew up around people who spoke only proper Tamrielic.
Great video, I really find it interesting when people don't like newer words or definitions. If you could go back in time to 1400AD in say England you might get by speaking English. Any earlier it would be difficult you would have to learn it like a new language.
Notice how lots of Altmer names sound more italian than English. Like Ancano and Vingalmo. But not all of them, just an observation
The one question I’ve ALWAYS wondered. I still remember the first day I played a Elder scroll game, I thought to myself: what was the native Language of redguards, Bretons, and nords?
Video starts here: 6:34 if you don't to be a linguist.
In regards to Latin:
Classical Latin (actual Latin the Romans spoke) is almost never spoken now... probably even since those days. Only scholars and linguists probably speak it still.
Ecclesiastical Latin (Church Latin) is the mutation of Latin by the Catholic Church... and almost sounds nothing like Classical Latin when spoken.
_CÆSAR_ would sound very different when pronounced in Classical from Ecclesiastical Latin.
You can see this in the Modern Age. Back in the 90s we used to use terms such a cool sweet hot and radical all things we like oh, now hardly anyone uses that terminology to describe something they thought was really neat. And another 20 years will probably have new terms for everything we say again.
FudgeMuppet... this may sound crazy but what about a DooomSlayer build? Need to Rip and Tear through the demonic forces of Oblivion
"when you play the game everything is in english"...NO!!im German and my game is German 😂😅
The Dunmer in the thumbnail seems pretty smug about having a dagger that can talk
My personal belief is that like the elder scrolls the dragon born hears what ever language they are fluent in thus why when you change your game Language everyone starts talking in said language and though my theories have some holes in them like why are the other people talking to each other also understand your language if maybe that person shouldn’t, I think it’s still something to think about.
Where do you always get these clips of hammerfell locations? What mod is this? 2:00
by Azura, I love Nirn
It would be super cool to have a mod for one of the games now (or maybe a setting in TES6) where the dialogue is replaced with their native language, and you had to pick up on words and phrases realistically.
that would be genuinely awesome
Hello I’m a big fan of your channel and I love your Skyrim and Fallout builds so I was wondering if you could do a modded or vanilla Lord of the Rings inspired Ringwraith build for The 5th installment of the Elder Scrolls series. Sincerely, a big fan!
I am from Texas and I can tell you that there are at least 10 full languages spoken and countless dialects and thats just in about a 10 mile area around me and I barely understand what comes out of my own mouth half the time
3:25 Elder scrolls online actually takes place 600 years before the events of Oblivion and morrowjnd and almost 800 years before Skyrim. ESO doesn’t take place a 1000 years before the events of Skyrim
Actually cyrodiilic and the language of the bretons are mostly based on elven languages. It's on one of the lorebooks. Ayleid and Falmer writing characters are very similar to the Altmer ones.
Was not tamrielic made by the altmer /High elves help?
Geralt Grey-Mane The Aldmer language has influence on Tamrielic language
Thank you!😁
Can you do a video theory about who claims miraaks soul, does it vanish slowly into the apocrypha, does he to sovenguard, or does Akatosh take him
Can you guys do some more elder scrolls dnd stuff. I thought that was cool, although the episodes were short
Regarding the elves, your thinking makes sense. However, I would argue that their language probably would change depending on the rate of reproduction. Language changes gradually over generations with young people as linguistic innovators.
Literally had to slow down playback speed to absorb the points
I would happily take years to remake the entire languages. All of them are so undeveloped it makes me cringe!
They need it
Like all of them are the same and have no development whatsoever. Barely any grammer, no differences in phonology (all of them are just english but put together differently). Like, languages are the best part (for me) about fantasy! Tolkien made so many languages for his books! It's so cool, but no... the Elder Scrolls languages are sad. It makes me sad...