Women Pastors and Saddleback Getting Kicked out of the SBC: Dr. Rick Warren
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- Опубліковано 12 вер 2024
- Dr. Rick Warren is a pastor, author, speaker, and the executive director of "Finishing the Task"--a global network that exists to convene and to catalyze the global body of Christ towards the goal of ensuring that everyone, everywhere has access to a Bible, Believer and Body of Christ. In this podcast conversation, Rick explains why he shifted his view on women pastors and why he thinks the SBC was wrong to kick Saddleback church out of the denomination.
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Even though I think there is scriptural basis for women in church leadership, I find a surprising lack of nuance from a man who teaches to so many. Im worries his prominence has gone to his head given how much his voice dominates what ought to be a conversation.
The person interviewing is the one who shapes and controls the conversation. He let him talk, and I assume that he knows what he is doing, and wanted Rick to talk on. It was a great amount of information on the history of church and women. And very eye opening on how the rules have changed with women in SBC. Information we do not get to hear hardly ever.
Yeah. Preston has repeatedly said that he won't push back on everything he disagrees with...
Great interview! I love the revelation that Rick Warren received from the Lord regarding women in the church. I have been a missionary since I received the Lord at age 24. Over 40 years later I still love telling people about Jesus and giving out tracts!
if that revelation goes against the bible. then the Lord has told him nothing. there is no such thing as a woman missionary in the bible.
You can't have "Revelation" that contradicts Scripture.
@@MeanBeanComedy can you find in the bible where a woman was called a missionary? i'll wait...
@@mic2damgoodYour question suggests you did not listen to the interview. You should listen…
Women in ministry and women holding postions as pastors are two different things at least to some people.
The word of God is the word of God there's only 2 species on earth man and woman besides what their sexual preferences might be no man come through this Earth unless he come through the body of a woman and that includes Jesus and God deems it so and if man goes against women being a pastor that man goes against the word of God
This conversation is a blessing. Thank you both for engaging each other, and the audience, in and around topics of critical importance to the body of Christ.
In your wide ranging and free-flowing engagement, there are practical considerations regarding ministry and mission which will have impact on the listener
We are invited to hear your stories, and their influence on you and those you love.
Most importantly, the lives that touch ours often reflect a profound, and yet subtle power of the ongoing ministry of the Holy Spirit.
As an Episcopal priest, author and consultant, I am engaged in a quiet long-term ministry to a diverse New York City, community of secular, top-tier decision makers ,I find your stories full of opportunity and grace, as related to our service in and of Christ no matter where we live, move and have our being. Thank you both. For the gift of your conversation.
Well, no wonder they broke fellowship with him and consequently his church.
Excellent!!!!!! Amen!
56:17 Preston does Warren have documentation for this claim about these African Baptists? Also, it’s revealing how he changed his wording to valuing “women in ministry” and “women” in general and did not explicitly say they affirmed woman as functioning teaching elders/overseers/pastors!
I use belonged to denomiation that until this day believes women should be quite in church & not wear men’s clothes to be saved . I now belong to church denomination that allow women to minister , teach & wear pants. I feel free to praise & serve the Lord
Wrong on court procedure: prosecution speaks first, then defense, then prosecution again in rebuttal -- because they have the burden of proof. Most other comments good to hear, though.
The congregation that demanded decision that a woman should be a pastor it's so sad it makes people turn away from the word of God that's what they're doing they're pretty much doing the devil's work for him he's laughing at this congregation that's saying that a woman can't be a pastor ridiculous Jesus mother nurtured him when he was a baby she ministered to him don't you get it yeah you better get it Cause God's gonna get you
Preston, I think we are going disagree once you come out on where you land on this issue. But, brother, you deserve the best “listener” award on this one! 😉
Hi. When did John write his letters to the churches in Revelation?
Pre-70 AD.
There are two schools of thought. The much larger group of scholarship (present and past) is that he wrote it in the early "nineties." (92-94 AD) The smaller group of scholarship has it written around 62-69 AD.
"we're telling 50% of the church to sit on the bench" .. What!? People have to be pastors in order to spread the gospel?
Ugh, what a clumsy statement.
That is the lamest argument and I’ve heard it from others! How many men are lead pastors? A minuscule percentage of active Christian men.
If Biblical text is tortured long enough……it will confess to a anything. Good riddance
Paul was pretty clear on this issue. This is just another example of how men refuse to listen to God and do things their own way.
And this is more than a woman issue- the bible makes it clear that all kinds of people are not supposed to be in positions of authourity- why can't people simply read the Bible and do what it says?
Because of Matthew 5:29-30; Matthew 18:8-9! Come on now you know the truth is sometimes not as clear as we would like for it to be or we all should be lame! And before you give the Ole hyperbole clause, be honest that the scripture did not inform you to that conclusion a historical analysis of ancient Greek literature and how it was composed brought you to a better understanding of what Jesus was meaning by these text! Let's try to be graceful in how we publicly express our thoughts on what other men or women may disagree with when it comes to our own biblical hermeneutics! You speak as if reading the Bible is an open and shut case when you read it! As if somehow because it's clear to you it should be clear to everyone! Be blessed hope this helps!
So in Acts 2, Peter uses the word "prophēteusousin" from "prophétés" for "prophecy." And in Ephesians 4, Paul uses the word "prophētas" to describe "prophets" alongside apostles, evangelists, teachers, and shepherds. I'm not making an argument either way, but is Rick saying that Peter's use of "prophēteusousin" is to be equal to act of evangelizing, teaching, and preaching? When Paul distinguishes the office or role of "prophet " from that of and evangelist, apostle, shepherd, and teacher, then shouldn't this give us pause to equate them altogether? (I actually believe women are equally as qualified as men to preach, but I think Rick's exegesis is lacking in this take.)
Mary sat at the feet of Rabbi Jesus. As a disciple. Jesus did not discourage her. And the whole deal with disciples was they were meant to carry on rabbi's teaching after he died. People who say all the 12 were make forget that it was very inappropriate to have women in such a close-knit group with eg women in garden of Gethsemane it would be an appearance of evil, which we are told to avoid..
the problem with thinking patriarchy/complementarianism is God's design because then you cannot explain the anomalies like women leading the underground church in Iran.
Instead they are judged for being in the wrong or going against God which in itself sounds weird because the whole idea of christianity is to tell others.
I do not recall restrictions on how to tell others-all the bible says is go and tell.
51:44 is there a link to Warren’s Bible study?
Before you tear the fences down boys, perhaps it would be good to see why they were put up in the first place.
With due respect to the Reverend Doctor, St Iraneus was the Bishop Bishop in the 2nd century and wrote about the importance of being true to your ecclesial leaders, so not so sure about that no lay/clerical split.
I thank God for this interview, and thank you, Pastor Rick Warren for explaining this topic so well.
I have been a devout Bible reading, actively engaged Christian for many many years and got declined from joining a Christian Facebook group because I thought it was OK (based on my understanding of scripture ) for women to have leadership roles in the church.
I appreciate Rick Warren's heart for the Gospel, but his exegetical work is a mixed bag in this video: Some of what Rick was saying was very helpful, and some of it was confusing and not so helpful. I know plenty of Baptists who affirm women serving as deacons, but just not as elders. But Rick's loosey-goosey phrasing of "women in ministry" only muddies the waters. Even Denny Burk, who opposed Rick Warren at the SBC, affirms "women in ministry." It just got me towards the end, at near 1:02:03 , when he stated that Jesus was born in the year ZERO. How can that be true when there was no year ZERO, and the concept of ZERO was not even introduced to the West until Islam brought the Arabic numeral system to Europe several hundred years after Jesus? *SIGH* Anyway, thank you Preston for interview.
Seems like he was born around 4 or 5 BC.
28:39 Here we go with egalitarian spit-balling and speculation to undermine the meaning of the text: “Diana” cult, assumptions, “Eve came first” speculation, “small group” reductionism of the local church, speculating about “cross talk,” false dichotomy about a passage must be “all universal” or “ all cultural.”
Loved it! ❤
I wouldn't praise the 1st Century church too much. Read 1 and 2 Corinthians and about the Galatian churches there was lots of dysfunction and confusion about the gospel in the first churches. Our churches need to pursue the vision of Jesus and the Apostles for what the church should look like.
He didn't say they were perfect.
Also he was talking about The day of Pentecost and the original going out of the gospel.
I didn't say he did.
Also I wasn't so much referring to his statements about Pentecost as much as his statements about the early church the first 350 years being an awesome time in the church history and the birth of the church was its best. Sure his emphasis was on Pentecost, but he also referenced the early period of the church.
53:34 Warren’s attack on Mohler here is not only unfair, it is inaccurate. Guilt by association and unfounded claims about fear and racism. Preston should have pushed back on his smear attack at this point.
I think "I will not allow...etc." is a diatribe, a quoting and mockery of the speech of Ephesus' men. Firstly, Paul uses other diatribes in the book of Ephesus. Secondly, there are no quotation marks in the original greek. Men added those later, as they saw fit. Thirdly, there is no "law" in the OT that says women must remain silent. Fourthly, Paul follows the diatribe with a rebuke: "Has the word of God only been revealed to you?"
So grateful I stumbled upon this, bringing some helpful clarity on a divisive issue. Thanks for posting!!
Then why was saddleback part of this so called horrible denomination 😅
I didn’t hear the word Elder used once. That’s where I think a lot of the of the church fusion is. Can women be Elders in the church? A Baptist tends to use the word pastor instead of elder but the function is the same. As soon as Warren started talking I think Preston said five words
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
A Judge was the most important spiritual leader of that time period according to scripture. When a Judge died the people went back to their sinful ways. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
@@user-iz8np3vv4i prophets typically operated outside of the covenant leadership structure, which is why they were on the outside speaking truth to power and not ruling from within the hierarchy itself. So there is not a direct connection between the rare occasion that a woman was a prophet during a unique time in Israel's history to female elders today. My view seems to be reinforced by the new testament qualifications for an Elder as well which seems to be a much clearer case then what you have presented.
@@calebmoore4727
As I wrote:
To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Excerpt taken from my essay below:
Wheresoever I have walked with all Israel, spake I a word to any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to feed my people, saying, Why have ye not built me an house of cedars?
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 KJV
Major modern English translations like the NASB use
the phrasing ...whom I commanded to shepherd My people...
[PASTOR - Origin: late Middle English: from Anglo-Norman French pastour,
from Latin pastor ‘shepherd’.]
In all places where I have walked with all Israel, have I spoken a word with any of the judges of Israel, whom I commanded to shepherd My people, saying, ‘Why have you not built Me a house of cedar?’
-excerpt 1 Chronicles 17 verse 6 NASB translation
___________________________________________________
The real question is this:
Are men and women perfectly equal spiritually?
If not, then the priesthood is tiered.
______________________________________________
Complementarianism - (basic definition)
The priesthood of the New Covenant is tiered. There is a hierarchy.
A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower,
at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines
their tier. A Christian can not move to a higher or lower tier.
A church can be made up of only men.
A church can not be made up of only women, because
it would have no elders.
______________________________________
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood...
-excerpt 1 Peter 2
A 2-tiered priesthood doesn't exist, but this is what
Complementarianism supports. It is a false teaching.
It uses double-talk by telling women they are equal to
men, yet states that women can't teach men. It states
that a group of Christian women can not be a church
under any circumstances, because there would be no
elders.
I’m not sure what Rick Warren is saying. Maybe someone can clarify. He seems to be making the point that it’s ok to have women pastors, but then states that the term is never used (except one in Ephesians 4:11). I’m more familiar with the terms elder/bishop as leaders of the church - would he agree with that? I think the first thing is to define a the terms pastor and elder. So then the question is, can a woman be an elder? Not really sure where he stands on that. Can someone help?
(I didn't watch the video, but am familiar with this subject.)
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
A Judge was the most important spiritual leader of that time period according to scripture. When a Judge died the people went back to their sinful ways. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Judges aren't pastors. They were separate from the Levite and Rabbinical system. And they only led when men wouldn't.
Comfortably my least favorite episode on this podcast, and I’ve been listening for years now. And that’s not because of the views expressed, obviously not.
This isn’t a conversation, it’s just Rick going on and on and on hammering the same drum. Preston didn’t even get a chance to ask any questions. No conversation was had.
Feel like Rick just wanted to use this as another platform to plead his case. Such a shame, wasted opportunity
It’s the interviews job to ask and shape a conversation. He could of interjected at any point. How do you know he didn’t just want him to talk on? Great information we don’t get many places on church history with women, Baptist rules history nobody is telling. I thank God he let him talk, because most information on this is biased and not factual, it was great to hear this perspective.
@@marchant860 true
I find it ironic that he came to that conclusion, as i had recently and very independently come to the conclusion. I first heard about it via my life group and they were more upset about him than jonny hunt!(sexual assault)
I'm currently attending Bellevue Baptist Church, but I'm considering a change. They have made several clear statements towards women and our "place" being under a man's authority. My pastor going as far as to say not being, will cause satanic attacks. Which is STRONG words. My experience has been the opposite, but I feel unable to say anything. As im easily dismissed, due to our financial poverty and health struggles. So im praying for answers
You might want to study Scripture more.
Painful how swiftly he linked having women in leadership to allowing a gay person to lead, then shut the latter down without a thought, as though to prove his credentials. Painful; i would love to hear an episode with room for nuance and pushback on this (searching the back catalogue now!)
I have my thoughts as an egalitarian.
Reply if desired. There are scriptures and
commentary.
Do you have any actual Christian beliefs anymore? Or is it all feelings now?
Whoa, does Rick Warren know how to hijack a conversation. Glad he's come to this new position on women, though.
He's going against Scripture, but I'm not sure he cares anymore.
I was terribly disappointed in this! You can’t call it an interview it was more like falling off a race horse coming out of the gate and just trying to hang on! He spent so much time trying to convince us he’s an authority he barely touched the topic! You need to change the title to “The Great Rick Warren!”
Couple things:
1. It's interesting that Christians make universal claims when there are so many exceptions. Universal truths are not universal if there are exceptions by definition. John Piper would claim that women should not preach, yet he uses commentaries written by women for his sermons. I'd say that is pretty grey. To say they can teach Sunday school but can't preach, that is pretty grey. To say they can be children's ministry pastors but not senior pastors is even more grey. I can't help but feel like this is just a way to say "women can be leaders..." but keep them "in their place."
2. Definitng words seem like what lawyers would do to determine what is lawful and not lawful. Defining terms between two lovers seem like love is not really the goal rather being right. I thought love is the point?
3. It's so interesting when Christians who are conservative suddenly choose to believe the same as progressive Christians, they frame it as a "new" revelation. Basically, it's not true until they discover it anew. "Women are also called to be pastors..." is nothing new. This has everything to do with the human condition. Read Romans and how Paul talks about the revelation of circumcision no longer being required. That was huge. Humans won't learn how wide God's love is. It was non jews, uncircumcised, black, women, gay, transgender, what will it be next until a "new" revelation? Will humans ever learn? You give people permission to marginalize using the Bible they will take it and then some.
4. Why can't we differ in theology or thinking than those who were "inspired" to write what later became scripture. "Inspired" doesn't mean possesses by God. Christians don't believe scripture is "perfect" that's why they use words like "inerrant". Humans today know so much more than humans 2000 years ago. I would think people today are also inspired. God still speaks today. These people are also not perfect as apostles like Paul and Peter were not perfect. I don't expect a Christian living in a time when slavery was normal to have the same gospel in mind as me, today.
5. Rick Warren should say "I could be wrong..." more often. He uses the Bible to marginalize people all the time. He is one of the reasons why people in Africa are outlawing lgbtq and calling for executions. Which is it? Is Rock Warren and his church being kicked out bc they have been silent about women in leadership until now or has this denomination suddenly decided to clean house?
His conclusions are wrong because he is redefining words. Forth-telling is not the same as preaching. A prophet receives a direct revelation from God. Then can publicly declare exactly what God said. There isn’t any type of personal insight, intuition, or illumination of the scriptures. In other words it does not involve teaching.
If they were the same you wouldn’t need elders or teachers being different spiritual gifts.
Unless he claims that every word he speaks is from God, he is not a prophet.
Insightful "conversation" ... I put conversation in parenthesis because Preston barely got to speak. I am not sure I agree with Warren on his exegesis and arguments on this issue but it definitely seems like he has put in the work to try and research it.
Rick went in on this one 🔥🔥🔥
27:21 Warren advocates for agnosticism regarding 1Tim 2:11-12. Sprinkle is wise here to pushback Warren’s unfounded claims on the meaning of this verbal idea. Warren apparently has never read the thorough scholarly work of Baugh on this word that refutes all of Warren’s claims about this word. .
@chrisregas5045 I picked up on that error, too.
Rick makes an interesting point about not mixing cultural/contextual commands with universal commands. But the universal command of woman not exercising authority over men is followed by the theological fact of creation order. Not sure whether the Greek structure is such that Paul is basing his previous commands on this same theological truth, Adam first or if creation order applies only to his prohibition of women exercising authority/teaching men.
❤
God bless Pastor Rick,
42:04 the irony here is amazing and reflects a false humility. He claims humility and he could be wrong…AFTER spending the entire previous time claiming those who disagree with him are WRONG and using a text for a PRETEXT! 🤷♂️
“I do not permit a Preston to speak…”
lolol!
Saddened by Rick's statement that "you'll never hear a fundamentalist say 'I could be wrong". Judgmental and unfair. Essentially he is saying, "You'll hear me say I could be wrong but you won't hear those who disagree with me say they could be wrong." Just not true.
Preston was so nice to Warren when he acted like he knew more about extrabiblical Greek than Preston. Cringe-city, CA.
Boy, I wonder how long he can talk without stopping, but he makes lots of good points toward his opionion. Preston patiently listens. Both impressive to me. But he's exhausting.
22:46 Rick Warren has yet to reveal his exegesis for his newfound egalitarianism but he has been consistent in boasting about all the commentaries he read to come to his latest egalitarian view. And here he confesses he never did his own exegesis on this very issue for 50 years! 🤷♂️
Okay one more, I’m calling BS on the, “Reading 100 books!” He’s too busy to have read 100 books! He may have read the table of contents!
oh, so Warren is bald faced lying?? Careful mr. pharisee.
One other thought, you don’t build a theology on a word used once in Scripture but is okay to claim Junia as an apostle or women running from an empty grave are now teaching the apostles. I trust Preston’s scholarship far more than Rick Warren’s!
He must not like breathing too much. Would have liked less mansplaining and more dialog with Preston. But it was interesting nonetheless.
I agree with Warren on all points, and then some.
Possibly the *worst* popular presentation for an argument against complementarianism. Warren's complete misrepresentation of the scholarly debates around αὐθεντείν was p a i n f u l to listen to.
They way the convention handled Rick, knowing how 3 minutes would be insufficient to make his case about the women in ministry issue and its compatibility with the SBC local church autonomy, also refuse his efforts to put his Bible study in the tote bag and app, just shows how dirty they are. They don't want anyone to think deeply and risk being persuaded by a plausible position.
Straw man argument
They want people to be scriptural, probably.
One more comment, I don’t care how big a big shot is, to come on someone else’s podcast and just talk the whole time barely breathing to let the host say a word is totally rude! He owes you an apology for being a lousy guest!
Rick has had a huge positive impact for the Church (and am so thankful)... but man (!!) his exegesis is suspect.
If his exegesis is suspect - and it is - how is able to have a huge positive impact on the Church? Seems like it would be a net negative.
@@williamlloyd5064He ćûćkéd on an essential issue. It's happening all over Evangelicalism. In a decade, the Baptists are going to make the Methodists look like theologically-conservative radicals.
Oh yeah, how so?
Denomination, denomination, denomination. Just do what you must before God and quit worrying about the denomination. Who cares about the SBC?
A little more pushback on some of these assertions would make for a better "discussion". I must say, the continual allusion to racism is intellectually dishonest and extremely frustrating.
The Great Commission given to all, male and female.
Thank you RW
That isn’t the issue! I agree with that!
❤❤❤
Good riddance.
It sure sounds like 80% of the SBC has incredibly weak men leading their churches, Rick is blessed to get out of that den of vipers
I have been part of SBC churches for 11 years and seen a lot of spiritual abuse in SBC churches :(
Yeah, if they're not willing to compromise on scripture, they're weak!
Yeesh. What a shameful fall from grace. 😬😬😬
A very clever man but grossly twists scriptire .Only Peter prea hed at pentecost..the rest only PRAISED God in the different languages. Very dangerous ecumenical man
So done with all the squabbling over egalitarian and complimentary.
Biblical Patriarchy suits me just fine.
I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah.
Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually.
She was a pastor, according to the scriptures.
This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles.
A Judge was the most important spiritual leader of that time period according to scripture. When a Judge died the people went back to their sinful ways. To say a woman can be a Judge over Israel, but a woman can't be an elder in a small church, just doesn't make any sense scripturally.
Ask yourself this question when evaluating a pastor’s leadership;
“Would I follow this man into battle?”
The truth of the matter is that we are in a battle and we desperately need strong Biblical leadership to chart the course ahead and lead the way.
Most men will not follow a woman into battle, but they will follow other men.
Whether or not we choose to acknowledge that is up for discussion, but it is and always has been the case.
Men will always lead, that is not the issue. The issue is what type of men will lead.
@@westyso.cal.8842
Now she sent word and summoned Barak the son of Abinoam from Kedesh-naphtali, and said to him, “The Lord, the God of Israel, has indeed commanded, ‘Go and march to Mount Tabor, and take with you ten thousand men from the sons of Naphtali and from the sons of Zebulun. I will draw out to you Sisera, the commander of Jabin’s army, with his chariots and his many troops to the river Kishon, and I will hand him over to you.’” Then Barak said to her, “If you will go with me, then I will go; but if you will not go with me, I will not go.” She said, “I will certainly go with you;...
-excerpt Judges 4
Deborah and Barak speaking
@@westyso.cal.8842Perfectly-said. I love it!
❤