Women in Ministry - Prof Craig Keener
Вставка
- Опубліковано 2 лип 2024
- Paul’s letters stand at the centre of the dispute over women’s role in church ministry, with each side of the dispute championing texts from the Apostle. How do we understand the text in 1 Corinthians 14 where Paul instructs women to be silent, or the 1 Timothy 2 passage where women are forbidden to teach or exercise authority over men? Are these texts addressing a specific cultural situation or should they be treated as universal prohibitions?
Craig Keener delved deeply into the world of Paul and wrestled with these thorny texts in his book Paul, Women and Wives: Marriage and Women's Ministry in the Letters of Paul (Hendrikson, 1992). In a public lecture at Laidlaw’s Henderson campus in September 2019 Professor Keener looked at the arguments for both sides of the question: ‘are women allowed to be in ministry?’, and the approaches various theologians and church traditions have taken throughout the centuries.
He gave insights into the culture at the time Paul wrote his letters, and of the way false teachers were targeting women. He notes the importance of considering the original situation of Paul’s letters, and that Paul does affirm women’s ministry which helps us to see that Paul himself did not prohibit women from teaching the Bible always.
Watching now--thanks for the upload! Keener's writings are top-notch, but I love how he can break things down when speaking.
My favorite is Jeremiah 31:22! Compass= grasp with the mind; understand completely.
Great unbiased teaching remember we all bring baggage down through the centuries from western reading of text let us pray for clear understanding from the Holy Spirit. I recommend a good book man and women one in Christ excellent read and remember Joel 2:28-29
Where is the rest of the video?
I don't think this is the end all be all on women in ministry, but this definitely made me think a little harder on women pastors and other smaller things.
Diana worship (as in the goddess) was popular at the time , and girls were taught this myth from a young age. the reason for Paul’s statements about women keeping silent may have mostly been in regard to stifling these myths and keeping them ‘silent’ in church.
Exactly
I agree partially. There were powerful women and Pauls letter to Timothy is thought to be saying that women of power should not have power over the ministry. A voice…..is ok but too much voice is not.
@michaelbrickley2443 , that does go both ways regarding the power bit. Many are examples of this, men and women alike.
There are those who are responsible and those who are irresponsible.
We should pay careful attention to both the teachings and the personal philosophies of people, what gives their ideas drive, for be focus beyond the flesh.
Thank you Craig Keener for the teaching and all the contributions that are of great blessing for the biblical students, greetings from Spain.
If this is incorrect then why do churches allows women to sing, give announcements, teach Sunday school to children, pray for other members? Where are the women suppose to do any of these things? Remember the “ church” was not a huge building like today they were at there homes. So then if Dr. Keener is incorrect then women cannot do ANY speaking in church gathering at all..... Also we can’t say singing isn’t speaking. Singing is speaking in notes and rhythm that is pleasing to the ear. BUT it is still speaking from the voice using words.....🤔🤔🤔 AND we can’t add to scripture. Just thoughts.....
Taking to my Heavenly Father in prayer and direction. Who will instruct us and guide our steps and make clear our path of service for my husband and myself. ✝️
Love what you said! I just said this to a friend of mine weeks ago as we are both in ministry and run into men saying we aren’t allowed to be teaching as evangelist. But my thing is, the role of teaching is okay for women, even expected of women when it comes to teaching you how to do life, teaching you education until adulthood and even beyond adulthood, teaching you everything domestic to nurturing you and counseling you, which still falls under teaching because it is encouragement/exhortation (a spiritual gift). Many times counselors and teacher roles themselves almost seem reserved for women and viewed as feminine. You mean to tell me I can teach everything in life and be expected to do so, but God himself just stops it right at the word 🥴. The math ain’t mathing. I believe the part of God that is nurturing and encouraging is one of the things he put in women as an image of him. Guess what, those parts of him are under the teaching of the Holy Spirit. We aren’t exempt from that and in this next generation he will raise up, we’re going to see a huge amount of women being used! Watch and see.
Having a teaching position with authority over men is totally different than ministering such as praying, singing, prophecy etc. Paul even says as much. Feminism is cancer and it empowers men to be lazy and women to be controlling. It's not natural.
@@siobhansyt this is the thing about teaching. The role of teacher is integral to motherhood. Are we really saying that God created woman to teach her children how to be good people, teach them how to believe and follow God, be their introduction to spiritual and theological matters, answer their questions and raise them in the way they should follow, but somehow are not trustworthy or theologically adept teachers? It's absurd. If women weren't able to teach properly on spiritual matters, then they wouldn't be trusted with the next generation. These churches who allow women to be teachers in Sunday school only, are basically entrusting women with the most important job; to educate the new generation of believers. Yet these same churches somehow say that women are deficient and incapable of teaching men. Well then why on earth would you entrust them with something as important as your children? And indeed confine them to that role. Isn't that the more dangerous role for them to be in?! Their argument against women falls down on its own logic.
That is simply not true.... singing is not being authoritative.
Buenisima charla
We've got a pretty serious error in logic early in the presentation on the slide titled "Where does the Biblical Evidence Point?" On the "For women's ministry side" we have individual women listed for most of those categories, and make up a majority of the evidences on that side of the chart. An accurate comparison on the "Against Women's Ministry" side would be a list of all the MEN in those same categories (male prophets, judges, apostles and fellow workers/ministers). This would obviously require an entire slide deck of it's own, or very teeny tiny font. So three minutes into this thing, I'm already suspicious of either the motives behind the presentation, or the skill of the presenter. Since the conclusion on the slide itself states that the "percentage of texts" favors the "For Women's ministry" position, I can only assume at this point the presenters entire interpretive framework is going to be influenced by what he considers to be the preponderance of evidence, which he clearly judged incorrectly.
I post on this subject as an egalitarian, should you want a discussion.
I suggest my short free essay on Deborah, if you wish.
It would be great if Dr. Keener could make this case without the ridicule. Some of us are truly trying to figure out what Paul was saying. Also, it's a weak argument to say that no one obeys 1 Corinthians 14:43-35 fully therefore women are not prohibited from teaching. Maybe we are wrong for allowing women to sing or make announcements in church since Paul says they are not allowed to speak. I would be interesting in hearing why Dr. Keener is not persuaded by Dr. Fee's argument that v 34-35 is an interpolation.
Amen 🙏 ❤
Anglicans do so because of Biblical evidence and monastic tradition. Its so easy to see that an Abbess is an Apostle but not ordained, a nun is a Presbyter but not ordained and a sister is a deaconess but not ordained. They are not ordained so they cannot perform Sacraments but otherwise their duties mimic those of their clergy colleagues. We started to ordain the monastic women because of this.
Thanks for posting. God bless
Who was decieved,Eve or Adam ?
Eve was tricked by the serpent with the assistance of Adam.
Note, Adam does not object to the snake being in the garden, even though God had given him counsel to the effect of "keep," as in guard the garden, he does not protect Eve from the serpent, and he stands by silently while the serpent slanders God's character.
Then his remedy in the whole situation is to eat, nor does he step up as a godly man or leader, to stop the conversation, no he doesn't do that, nor does he call out for God in the midst of this crisis for help.
Adam deliberately disobeyed. He was clearly in rebellion. Proverbs 17:11.
Then when Adam was asked what happened he blamed God and Eve, does not even mention the snake.
Eve was the only one who pointed out the presence of the serpent.
Adam concealed this fact because he had allowed the snake to be there, going against what God had told him to do. Romans 5.
The only bit I disagree with here is the idea that Martha just needed help in the kitchen when from what I have been told the title for Martha was dikanos as well. Otherwise good stuff!!
Although the comments here only show how entrenched the idea women cannot teach - because of the context being shot a certain way rather than doing the actual exegesis - truly is. We should be humble enough to consider we could be wrong on any teaching of the church and truly seek to understand the context of scripture - historical, cultural, all matter.
Why is he ignoring 1 Timothy and Titus where Paul instructed selection of Elders and Deacons were only male?
Yes , and that's were we could be arguing, why are women not fit to be leaders?????, we hv everything to be leaders but in the bible it says we shouldn't coz its an oder. Why and why . Are we second citizens, are we not educated enough, is it bcz of eve who sins first( then why judge from that, coz its a very narrow judgment and the point is not making any sense)
few observations regarding this lecture. The Deborah and the Old testament did not want to lead Israel but she did because there was no man wanted to take on the responsibility. What is the criteria you're using to suggest that Deborah was an Old testament apostleI? Most of this lecture basically confirms women in ministry I don't think anywhere in the Bible it speaks against women being in ministry. The question is should women have authority over men in a church and preach and teach in a church. There is nothing wrong with women publicly preaching the gospel to people teaching the gospel to people publicly. Paul address the authority that a woman should have in a church according to 1 Timothy. I don't see any contradiction in the New testament at all about that statement. To a certain degree the lecture is mixing apples and oranges and not comparing apples to apples and oranges to oranges That's just my observation regarding the lecture. I think the lecture is good in the sense of presenting his argument which allow for genuine reflection. I think our culture has more influence on the church than the church on the culture. There's too much emphasis on what we can't do versus what we can do. Women have written Christian books on the subject of theology, teaching the Bible, teaching on podcast UA-cam there are so many ways to share the gospel. Simply put the church is not like any organization It's the church function is different from secular organizations. It does not diminish a woman if she doesn't preach or teach in the church nor does it gives her more importance to preach and teach in a church.
As Jesus' Head was His Father, as Christ is the Head over man, so man is over the woman. If you have 10 Godly men over their families, the man would be the head of all ten families. If Jesus had called even one of His apostles a woman this wouldn't be a problem, but He didn't! Yes, there are exceptions, but let's not make the exception the rule! Especially in these days when woman say they are men and men say they are women, it is obvious Satan is trying to undo the order of men and women that God designed from the beginning! Although men and women are equal in God's eyes, we have different functions. Blessings!
Based on his last point: Is it wrong for a wife to call her husband lord today? Or is it just old-fashioned and unhelpful? Do we think that God messed up by having this verse in Scripture?
There are women who are stalwart biblical, and then there are those who find discomfort with the cannon. Those who find discomfort with the 66 are unholy and unfit for ministry.
If the ministry grows closer to the standards of Paul and above him, Yeshua, in a biblical manner, then there is nothing to argue against.
One should just maintain disearnment and be open to constantly investigate sermons as one does with the more common norm.
Take them into prayer and may they be reminded of the heresy of goddeship which is one of the historical reasons the letter was sent to the community, since the early greek converts would fall for such deception from time to time and it needed to be hulted, and so Paul sought out to do just that regarding that church.
May they know and remember who they are going to bear witness to upon death and not drift, for the responsibility is heavy upon the shoulders of those who teach and who are in ministry leadership.
When we speak of a shepherd, we associate it with the word pastor and therefore the one who grazes the flock. And we also add that women do not have the right to bring the Word of God or even to preach or teach etc... What worries me and to what extent we are able to use a verse finally and not another to interpret it as it suits us and vice versa. I believed that in Christ there was neither Jew nor Greek, neither man nor woman... It should also be noted that when we are told about Rachel, Rachel was a shepherdess, that is to say that she also herded the flock. , but for many I think she will be read literally and as such she was certainly good at herding sheep. See how many women God has used in the scriptures or in the world to bring the Word. when you see women like Corrie Ten Boom, or the story of that woman who went to the Amazon with her husband and another couple to bring the gospel. Her husband and the other couple were killed by the natives. The woman however stayed back and forgave and not only that but God used her to bring the good news of the Kingdom to these natives. The whole tribe turned to Jesus. There are hundreds of testimonies of God using women to bring the gospel. Would God contradict himself with his Word? It is also enough to see the history of the revival in 1900 to realize that God also used women to teach, to preach. The whole tribe turned to Jesus. There are hundreds of testimonies of God using women to bring the gospel. Would God contradict himself with his Word? It is also enough to see the history of the revival in 1900 to realize that God also used women to teach, to preach. The whole tribe turned to Jesus. There are hundreds of testimonies of God using women to bring the gospel. Would God contradict himself with his Word? It is also enough to see the history of the revival in 1900 to realize that God also used women to teach, to preach.
Paul must be schizophrenic because in 1 cor 11:3-6 he says women need to cover their heads when praying or prophesying in church! Then in a few chapters later in 14 he forbids them to speak! Priscilla in acts 18:26 she is teaching Apollo the gospel along with her husband. They had a church in their home. Her name comes first which gives her more honor. 1 Tim 2 and 1 cor 14 are situational not normative. Where would the church be if women hadn't been missionaries? They were preaching the gospel to both men and women. Women do most of the work in the church. The Holy Spirit fell on both men and women. The Spirit decides who gets what gifts. If He gives the gift of teaching or preaching to a women who r u to differ? Paul is not schizophrenic. So there has to be something wrong with those 2 scriptures. Or in our understanding
He’s cooking i can’t lie
Thought provoking. Thank you. Be it Men or Women, either way, the most important matter is love of God and others. There will be no battle of the sexes in heaven. Matthew 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Some clarity may be brought to bear on this issue by asking whether women could be priests in the O.T. ...why not? High Priests? Why did Jesus have to be male? But after, when Christ has fulfilled His ministry and become our High Priest, then we are made priests in Him...what are the corollaries? What does the fall do to man...woman? How does Jesus address the consequences of the fall? The fall itself? How is this reflected in the church being called the bride of Christ? How is "bride " understood in this context?
Priests also couldn't be left-handed. We don't then take from that, somehow, that God has a bias against left handed men.
Of course women can be in ministry. They have spiritual gifts and can apply them right in the church. I have never heard debate over this. The question is women in authoritative roles as pastor's and preachers in a church context. I don't agree with this egalitarian conclusion, but I have to give Craig credit. This is the best and most consistent explanation of this.
Very nice survey of the various views and logical problems with many of them. However, he kind of danced around taking a position on the two passages that specifically command women not to teach and to keep silent.
It is important to note that women usurping authority is the key to understanding. As he said, the culture was one where interruptions were allowed and encouraged. We live in a highly feminized society where we have wrongly been taught that interruptions are rude. 1 Cor. 14:30 shows this is the specific context for women to be silent. Both passages refer to the same foundation for his teaching: the law (Torah). The 1 Tim. 2 passage gets into the nitty gritty details of what the Torah teaches about this: 1) Adam was first formed, then Eve formed for man, 2) Adam was not deceived but the woman was. The implication of mentioning childbirth is that because they were one, and man could not replenish the earth without the woman, Adam's sin was not one of deception, but a sin of solidarity with his wife. So the teaching of the law is that women should be in subjection to the man in working out her salvation. I should also point out that Greek does not have a separate word for wife and woman, so the main focus here could be looked at as husband and wives interrupting each other in the church. That could be shameful for the husband. Or even in disputes of opposite genders, many men would feel shame to rebuke a woman whereas not with another man. There is an innate desire for men to be chivalrous and polite toward women, treating them with greater respect and care. Therefore, in this context, let women be silent and refrain from teaching in this kind of debate style situation. A woman trying to inject herself in this kind of debate and rebuke type of teaching would just shut down that kind of interaction completely. Let the men hash out doctrinal disagreements in the church. Let the wives ask their husbands at home if they want to learn. They should not challenge the men and usurp authority over them in this type of format.
Are you saying women can only be saved with help of a man? The only man that can save a woman is Jesus Christ. A single woman can be saved, too. I am sure I misunderstood you. Salvation is a first tier subject. There is only one way and that is through Christ. Whether you are a man, woman, or child. God bless
What all of this comment teaches me is that things are just as they were since the garden. We humans are a bunch of selfish creatures. We are willing to serve God as long as it profits us. As soon as God touches us in sensitive places we are ready to balk and reject his whole plan. You see, that's the attitude scripture was discerning all along in Israel. They love freedom, their own land rich with resources, offspring that are plentiful and a secure religious/political system.....but that was as far as their commitment goes. No sooner God demands from them a change in lifestyle and practices than they bolt.
One has to learn. When I listen closely to the arguments put forward by women against the biblical tradition of not allowing women to be elder-teachers you begin to understand the text better. Sin is never revealed until a law forbids something. Lust shows itself as sin only when the law says, THOU SHALT NOT COVET!
Does anyone dear to think that God expects us to accept all his word as reasonable at all times. Are not lots of things good and proper simply because God says so? Are we to obey only that which we love and understand? What good would be the law of obedience? Yet, I can guarantee anyone that looks at the issue dispassionately for a while in quiet contemplation that scripture that orders both men and women to their designated place/role is neither wrong nor irrelevant.
Likewise to me the sin of The generic sin in womens nature shows up when God says, "Be quiet."
Scripture, with faith and patience, has quite a lot to teach us about ourselves.
Okay so what’s your response to 1 Corinthians 11? Where three chapters prior Paul is recognizing that women prophecy in church, and he wants to make sure their heads are covered so that they are a good cultural witness? You would shout them down telling them to be quiet? If so…wouldn’t you be contradicting Paul in 1 Corinthians 11? Did you actually watch the whole video my friend? Another question; in your church, do you have any prophecy? Any time for prophecy? Any prophetic words from the Lord? If not…why? Prophecy is higher than teaching in the gifts of the Spirit. And women are allowed to prophecy explicitly all throughout scripture. So…where are your women prophets? If you don’t have any, maybe it’s because….you’re not actually open to the Age of the Spirit and Joel’s prophecy in chapter 2 that in the last days, Jesus would pour out his Spirit on ALL FLESH, “your men and your women shall prophecy.”
Have you considered that men may be also acting sinfully by desiring authority over women? We are all called to submit in one way or another, but nowhere in scripture does it say that submission should be imposed.
Women can be in ministry, but men are directly called for leadership in the church and being the Shepard of the flock.
In my image bearing of God, I am equal to men. However, in the roles God has designed for men and women, I am not to pastor or lead the flock. My realm of biblical influence is children and other women.
Equal in value, yes. In distinction? No.
Why is it restricted to other women and children? What verse says women may teach other women and children?
@@contrarian9999
“I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.”
1 Timothy 2:12 HCSB
“An overseer, therefore, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, self-controlled, sensible, respectable, hospitable, an able teacher,”
1 Timothy 3:2 HCSB
“In the same way, older women are to be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not addicted to much wine. They are to teach what is good, so they may encourage the young women to love their husbands and to love their children, to be self-controlled, pure, homemakers, kind, and submissive to their husbands, so that God’s message will not be slandered.”
Titus 2:3-5 HCSB
@@Jestloo Do you even realise that two other groups of people are also silenced in 1 Timothy 2 all in the context of false teachings that were specific to the church Paul was writing to?
The qualifications for an overseer are gender neutral in the original Greek and the idiom "husband of one wife", used to denote propriety, was used of men and women. Douglass Moo himself (a famous complementarian I am sure you are familiar with) even stated that this passage cannot be used to eliminate women.
The last one is regulating behaviour among Christian women (again addressing Greco-Roman wives whose behaviour might have stirred up suspicion in 1st century Rome) so I dont know why that is applicable?
May I ask why you believe women can only teach other women and children? Use the scriptures if you must to explain but then let it come from scripture and not a faulty interpretation of them.
@@robertomontanez1163 Since when is gospel teaching revolved around teaching men to be men? Your narcissism and ignorance of scripture is showing.
Спасибо, но тяжело читать, а хотелось бы прослушатт
Proverbs 10:19
[19]In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
Dr Keener is so funny!
I love Mr. Keener but his hermeneutic in 1 Tim 2:12 is faulty. The "silence: of the women is regarding "teaching", not singing or any other kind of speaking necessities or opportunities. But I guess we all come to the text with our own presuppositions
I don’t think that he argues what you claim. I noticed him argue that women are prohibited to teach in a highly speciffic geographical and social setting, where false teachers are targetting widowed women in Efesos.
Yes, many suppose that this passage is about all women, when it is singular and it only applies to one woman teaching one man. Also, it isn't God but rather Paul who isn't currently permitting (epitrepō is limited in scope and is used in scripture for temporary allowances, paraggellō is usually used for commands like in 1st Timothy 1:3, 4:11 etc) the singular woman from teaching or exercising authority/teaching a man in a domineering way (we're not actually sure of how to define authentein since this is the only occurrence in the Bible and we also aren't sure if this is two separate prohibitions or one) Since this passage is not clear, we should look to other passages in the Bible about women teaching (which there are none) or where we see women teaching to interpret it.
Most classic Pentecostal groups while allowing for women minister in the first two decades, revised there position precisely because of Scriptural reason.
Oh dear , is it worth making a comment here ? Too much to cover here. But I have my suspicions cleared about Dr Keener's understanding of biblical authority and what he believes here. Wasn't quite sure about the things he always left out in his vids; One for Israel . Many dodgy OT pointers to prove a point.
In 1 Corinthians 14:33-39 (the main passage in question), Paul never makes any distinction regarding level of education but only distinguishes women from the rest of the saints. And in verse 37, Paul clarifies that this is a command from the Lord. If you're going to put your 1960s feminism ahead of the Lord's command, Paul says (verse 38) you will be ignored.
[So, accepting Keener's arguments amounts to nullifying Paul's direct command from the Lord to all congregations of the saints, and replacing it instead with nothing but his own politically baised speculations.]
Prophecy, singing, etc., is not teaching. The keeping 'silence' is on teaching. Cultural matters are not mentioned, so it would be wrong to assume this matter was based on 'culture'. Also, 1 Timothy 2:13: I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression.…
Point is, if "silent" doesn't ACTUALLY mean "silent" then we have to interpret what it does mean. And prophecy is considered second to apostleship and above teaching in 1 Corinthians 12. If a woman is taught, so that she is able to teach (hence all these seminaries which take in women) we are protecting the church against false teaching not promoting it.
Read all of Ch 14. 1 Corinthians. See where it says. All has a teaching. This is to both.
StPaul was very clear on the subject in 1 Timothy 2.12. Stop perverting scripture to suit social conventions.
and that's were we could be arguing, why are women not fit to be leaders?????, we hv everything to be leaders but in the bible it says we shouldn't coz its an oder. Why and why . Are we second citizens, are we not educated enough, is it bcz of eve who sins first( then why judge from that, coz its a very narrow judgment and the point is not making any sense)
The problem in the garden was that Adam, who was in authority over the woman, as a function of his being created first, abdicated his position, and allowed his wife to make a spiritual decision. Adam was not deceived by the serpent, but Eve was. Adam's sin was that he did not exercise his God-given authority over Eve, and by doing so, save both of their lives. It is this principle that Paul refers to when he says that wives are to submit to their husbands, and that wives must learn in quiet submissiveness (note that there is no prohibition to them learning), and that men must always hold positions of authority in the church. All of these are social manifestations of God's created order, and if we attempt to recreate that order, we do so at our own peril. Many (if not all) of the social problems in our day could be corrected if men properly exercised Godly authority. The coordinated effort to diminish this created order has, unfortunately, infiltrated the church. Fortunately, there are still some groups who maintain the scriptural standard.
Subordinationism was declared a heresy in the 300's so your argument that by being created second that makes Eve unable to preach is faulty - even Luther believed women and men were created equal and held equal authority until AFTER the fall. Adam was standing right there and didn't do anything. Mutual submission is what Paul actually teaches. Paul does not teach men are the only ones who can hold authority - that is a more modern construct .
You don't need to interpret the Bible like this. Adam was standing there and took and ate the fruit. His choice. Submission is a position all Christians should hold. It's biblical for a husband to submit to his wife just like it's biblical for wife to self-sacrificially love (agape) her husband Even though Paul only talks about wives being submissive and husbands practicing agape love. Human beings did not hold authority over each other before the Fall. God gave Adam and Eve the exact same role: to be fruitful and exercise dominion over the earth.
Look at the SBC right now and the rampant sexual immortality that has been revealed. Holding your idea of biblical roles does not improve society, unfortunately.
No sir, Adam had no authority over the woman at all. She and adam both had authority and freedom of will and choice and he chose to sin against God and she did not.
Well said brother! You just rebuked this 45 min presentation in 2 paragraphs. There’s much more to add but I’m glad you took the time to share, praise God!
Well done mate! That was beautifully said!
Looks more like to me a reason to go against what God stated , there's a reason he gave discernment
There is neither male nor female in God's sight. Deborah was elder prophetess and Judge of Israel. The men had to submit to her leadership...
You lack knowledge. HOSEA 4:6
There are a lot of bad arguments used in this video, but some are just dishonest. At 37:14 he claims that Adam only uses the “naming formula used for animals” for Eve after the fall. This is false, he names her “woman” as soon as she is presented to him in Genesis chapter 2, and then he names her a second time as “Eve” in connection to her childbirth. Adam clearly had authority over her. The argument is not whether women are deceived by nature, but whether subverting God’s authority structure opens you up to deception.
At 41:14 he balks at the possibility that 2 Corinthians 11:3 could have Eve as a reference to women instead of just the church being deceived, yet that exact passage refers to the church of Corinthians being a virgin bride of one husband, Christ. It is an explicit analogy of Eve as symbolic of a wife/woman. Keener promotes an extremely dishonest argument by omitting that crucial fact.
The Hebrew formula he is referring to is only employed after the Fall. "Woman" is not a name, it's merely an identification of who Eve is in relation to him -she is a woman, he is a man. The entire focus of the creation narrative is the affinity of men and women and how she was his "perfect match". Upon seeing her for the first time, Adam only brings up their similarities, not their differences. Nevertheless, Hagar employs the same naming formula when she gives God a name after she is chased into the dessert. I doubt her giving God a name indicates she has authority over Him. Also, there is no hint of an authority structure in Genesis 1 or 2 -the first time anything is mentioned regarding authority or rule is in the consequences of the Fall in Gen 3:16 I believe it was.
@@contrarian9999 Even though the Hebrew naming formula is different when Adam calls Eve "woman," Adam still named her. She didn't name herself. Adam bringing up similarities is only to contrast the fact that only animals were made so far. If you really want similarities then why did Adam name her "woman" at all? Why not call her man? If you really want zero authority pre-fall, then have Eve name herself, and have Adam not created first. But that's not how God created us. Womanhood is good. Manhood is good. Male authority is good. Jesus is the second Adam. He is not a second Eve. Woman is under man, and this is good.
@@mattshiff Lol. Ok Matt.
@@contrarian9999would you give me the same courtesy I gave you by at least offering a response and not an "lol ok"?
Why are you going to exceptions in the Old Testament? You want to make exceptions to the rule the norm of today.
No sir. Deborah was the first pick on the school ground or the last pick on the school ground? Again your using an Old Testament exception as an equal, normal in the New Testament.
How is she an exception? How many prophetesses did you know? Historical records are actually replete with both male and female prophets. So please stop these false claims. It was quite normal to have male and female prophets.
@@hesedagape6122 B.S. You are spreading complete falsehoods. List these female prophets by name. Give historical proof since you seem to have it. Post it here now.
@@SithWithNoName so you really think that Middle Eastern cultures had no female prophets and the few prophets were those named in the Bible? Sorry to burst your bubble. There were lots of prophets. There are schools of prophets headed by Elijah and Elishah and way before in Saul's time. Prophet wasn't as exclusive as you wish. And it was not gender specific nor even exclusive to the cult of YAHOWEH. This we know from archaeological finds and the Bible narrative. The Bible is a story book. Do read the stories.
@@SithWithNoName and some of us actually went to the Seminary and studied.
@@hesedagape6122 That’s your problem. You went to a seminary. So you went to a bullshit school. Congratulations. The Bible ONLY names three or four female prophets. And to say there are more, many more, is ADDING TO THE SCRIPTURES. Which is forbidden. Yes there were only a few. Throw away your Satanic seminary certificate, sir. I am not impressed. Eat your pork and be content that your education is fake.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
Love this teaching. Also love the 'dad jokes' sprinkled in--you can tell a good teacher by the corniness of their jokes :)
I respect Pastor Jennings... but i do not agree with all that he says.... Joel 2:28-29: 28: It shall come to pass afterward (last days) that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29: And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. Jennings know of these Scriptures.... 1 Cor 14:34-35: Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also says the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (Where in the Law does it say that women are to be silent in the church? (True the women is to be in obedient to her husband. This has to do with house, and relationship of married couples... but has nothing to do with Church. And, IF Paul is speaking of women not to SPEAK in church... then not to speak means not to SAY NOTHING IN CHURCH. It means she cannot open her mouth to sing, give announcement, greet others. Speaking is talking. And says, if the woman learn anything, her husband is to teach her. Well, what if she does not have a husband. Is she to be ignorant of our soul-saving-Bible? 1st. Cor 14:34-35 is misinterpreted by some preachers.) 1 Cor 14:36-38: 36: (preachers ignore this continuation of this passage of Scripture.) Vs. 36: What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? 37: If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 38: But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. (Seems like Paul is reprimanding the Corinthian church... and asking them a question. Additionally, seems like Paul is telling us whose commands these are in 1st. Corinthians.)
1st. Tim 2:12-14: But I suffer (I... I, Paul do not allow. I, not God) not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13: For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14: And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. The transgression in the Garden of Eden has nothing to do with women speaking in church. Peace)
Which women were patriarchs? Which were the 12 apostles? Come on. It's just not a thing. Women ministered but they weren't the elders.
Which patriarchs were gentiles or of the 12 were gentiles? By your logic we are violating the will of God by having gentile elders. Please at least use a good argument!
@@sararobins9750 Nonsense, Luke was a Gentile. Abraham was a gentile. You are pretending that 2000 years of Christians were just illiterate dummies and YOU are the smart one.
This issue is where dispensational framework helps the most: Paul is the apostle over the gentile churches and he has dictated that "an overseer is the husband of one wife" (1 Tim 3:2). The conversation starts there. Anyone can labor, anyone can speak a word/prophesy generally. Pauls instruction, however, is exlicit regarding man-woman relationships, and structure of the home. The question is NOT "how has God used women in the Bible?" but the question is "How has God directed womens activity in the church?"
"one woman man" is an idiom and does not have to be interpreted as to restrict by gender. Idioms are used in the Bible and do not have to be literally applied. Take for example the book of Jonah, which said the Ninevites didn't know their right hand from their left. We don't literally translate that as the Ninevites were unable to tell their hands apart. The Greek in Timothy chapter 3 is gender neutral, and so Paul is saying it is good for anyone to desire to be an overseer. And just as an overseer does not need to have two or more children, an overseer does not have to be a man. The language is letting us know moral, not superficial, qualifications.
On that basis, what do you do with an elder who has no children?
Women can be prophets, but not Elders/Bishops, it's not contradictory at all. One is an office of discernment and encouragement, the other is one of teaching and leadership. Sadly, Keener is simply offering cultural and emotional arguments not Biblical ones.
1 Cor 12:28 - "And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers..."
Not only do we have many female prophets (OT & NT) but also female Apostles. Which Craig Keener talks about at length.
@@Mark85691
There is no such things as female "Apostles" in Christianity. Furthermore most people that are self proclaimed apostle nowadays are not, but the function and office is Biblical.
@@felixguerrero6062 Romans 16:7, Paul names a woman apostle, Junia.
@@Chomper750
Roman's 16 is a greeting not a dogmatic statement on who can be an elder. The phrase can mean that Junia is famous (or well known) *among* the apostle, not an apostle herself, most common reading. Also in the the earliest manuscripts the name is unclear (look at Vaticanus) every one makes a big deal that later Byzantine MSS changed it to Junias, but if you look siniaticus or vaticanus it's really not all that clear. Revisionist love 16:7, but it really doesn't prove anything either way, God Bless.
@@felixguerrero6062 Romans 16:1 pronounces Phoebe as a deacon of the church.
1 Timothy 3:8-11 lays out the requirements for deacons. Verse 11 specifically mentions the requirements for female deacons. Those who believe this is only referring to wives of deacons ignore Romans 16:1, where it is clear women served as deacons.
God chose Mary Magdalene to be the first to preach the resurrection of Jesus., even to the apostles.
Galatians 3:28 there is no longer male nor female, but all are one in Christ.
Early Church fathers including Origen and John Chrysostom wrote of Junia as a female apostle.
"Who are of note among the Apostles. And indeed to be apostles at all is a great thing. But to be even amongst these of note, just consider what a great encomium this is! But they were of note owing to their works, to their achievements. Oh! how great is the devotion (philosophia) of this woman, that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation apostle!"
Of coarse unbelieving women can do what they desire. Now a saint is a differant story.
I agree that when men are there ,she should be silent. Or in the mission field where no spiritual man not trained.But I think that the Bible make it clear that Paul is not against it, in some situations.
Here is the Divinely approved Truth especially written for the Elected
daughters of Almighty God:. ......
"11 Let the woman learn in silence with
all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man,
but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the
transgression"
1 Timothy 2:10-14 (KJV)
That is the TRUTH, many now do not like it, and refuse to comply, but there it is.
And again we plainly see:
"As in all the congregations of the saints, 34 women should remain silent in
the churches.
They are *not allowed to speak*"
*[To talk, i.e. UTTER WORDS :- PREACH, say, speak (after), talk, tell,
utter. -Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary]
"But must be in *submission, as the Law says."
*[To subordinate; reflexive to obey :- be under obedience
(obedient), -Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary]
"35 If they want to enquire about something, they should ask their own
husbands at home; for it is *disgraceful for a woman to speak in the
church."
*[A shameful thing, i.e. indecorum :- shame.-Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew
Dictionary]
36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has
reached?
37 If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, **let him
acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's** command".
1 Corinthians 14:33-37 (ANIV)
Anyone in here "spiritually gifted" ?
So again that is the TRUTH arrogant rebellious feminists may not
like it, but there it is. Any feministic attempt at deviation is against
the Truth and the commandment of the Lord.
Dude he literally spent the entire video going over those two single passages. Did you watch the video??? You’re not interacting with a single thing he said!!
@@PeterPyo
As you have probably noticed, I follow the Scriptures penned and authenticated by Divine approval. Any other reasoning is simply human hot air or downright heresy!
So........" If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, **let him
acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's** command".
1 Corinthians 14:33-37 (ANIV)
Is anyone in here "spiritually gifted" ?
Are you, "spiritually gifted" PeterPyo?
For now is a wonderful chance to prove it both before God and the world, right?
Note: So any feministic or heretical attempt at deviation is wicked and against
the Truth and the commandment of the Lord.
@@earnestlycontendingforthef5332 womp womp bad comeback. It’s not human reasoning. It’s carefully applied exegetics.
@@PeterPyo
It is still human reasoning, especially as it contends and nullifies St. Pau's Divinely approved teaching on the subject.
""Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?"
Acts 19:15 (ANIV)
@@thewatcher96 “now the bereans were of more noble character because they carefully examined the scriptures…” hmm seems like your simplistic fallacy doesn’t hold up to even the New Testament’s standard of careful examination.
This is Keener at his worst. There is no Scriptural statement affirming woman's ordination. Female prophets or judges were exceptions during times of apostasy in Israel, and was a rebuke for the lack of male leadership. Building an entire doctrine which contradicts the clear statements of Paul in the NT because of a possibly feminine apostle named Junia is laughable.
C. M. Granger I hate to break it to u mate but u definitely know like 1000x less and have a fraction of bible understanding as this guy has. Your Paul statement is taken so out of context and you know it dont ya. Just humble yourself and stop commenting ur opinions over UA-cam when they are neither correct or helpful
@@Ben-wh4ci I'm afraid you're incorrect "mate", you know nothing about me. Keener's exegesis of Paul is low grade, there are scores of biblical exegetes which dismantle his presentation and you know it. If you don't, perhaps you should catch up on the relevant literature.
C. M. Granger oop😂. The old if disagree with my doctrine you got it wrong route. Love it !
@@Ben-wh4ci I explained what he got wrong, only a fraction of it. Believe what you like, just don't poison the minds of others with this shabby scholarship, needed to prop up bad doctrine. I'm done here unless you have something substantive to offer dealing with this topic, mate.
C. M. Granger I don’t engage in debates over UA-cam with people who are so incredibly prideful they couldn’t ever admit they could ever get something wrong. So I guess I got nothing to say, you win :)
1 Corinthians 14:34
[34]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
[34]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35]And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35
[34]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35]And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1 Corinthians 14:34-36
[34]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35]And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
[36]What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1 Corinthians 14:34-37
[34]Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
[35]And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
[36]What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
[37]If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1 Timothy 2:11
[11]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
1 Timothy 2:11-12
[11]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
1 Timothy 2:11-13
[11]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13]For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1 Timothy 2:11-14
[11]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13]For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
[14]And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Timothy 2:1,11-14
[1]I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
[11]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13]For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
1 Timothy 2:1,11-14
[1]I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
[11]Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
[12]But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
[13]For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
Taken out of context.
@@jedkaro
Quoting out of context. Quoting out of context (sometimes referred to as contextomy or quote mining) is an informal fallacy and a type of false attribution in which a passage is removed from its surrounding matter in such a way as to distort its intended meaning.
The fallacy of quoting out of context (contexttomy, contextomy; quotation mining) - refers to the selective excerpting of words from their original context in a way that distorts the source's intended meaning.
since you have accused me of taking scripture out of context, the burden of proof is on you to show how I distorted their intended meaning by quoting them apart from their surrounding context.
by the way, Jesus and the apostles quoted many single verses of scripture are you going to accuse them of also taking scripture out of context as well?
here are just 3 examples. of what you would call quoting out of context, and I have much more available as I looked up a whole bunch of these just for this reason.
Mat 1:22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Isa 7:14
Mat 2:5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
Mat 2:6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel. Mic 5:2
Mat 2:14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Hos 11:1
Read before that in Ch 14
Do u see where Paul says for the Prophet to be silent? Do u think Paul wants a prophet to quit forever?
@@zerosparky9510
1 Corinthians 14:28 (KJV) But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
He is only to be silent if speaking in tongues and there is no interpreter, which is no problem, and has nothing to do with women keeping silent,
1 Cor 14:34-37, 1 Tim 2:11-15,
Just as Moses was admonished to build the tabernacle and its furniture according to the pattern shown in the mount, so too we also have a New Testament pattern laid out for the church that was given by God through divine inspiration to the New Testament writers.
Yet what do we have today? Thousands of denominations only following portions of that pattern and adding/taking away from that pattern as they were taught by their founder.
We have no right to add to or take away from the New Testament pattern given.
@@dennishagans6339 , and in V29, Let 2 or 3 prophets speak, and let the others weigh what is said. if a revelation is made to someone else sitting nearby, let the first person be silent. for you all can prophesy.
So again. do you think Paul meant for the prophet to be silent forever???? it is the same word for the Sister in Christ.