5 explanations for THAT face | Doctor Who Theories
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 чер 2024
- What was Richard E Grants face doing in the line up of past Doctors in Season 1 episode 'Rogue"? is it the Shalka Doctor? the Curse of Fatal Death Doctor? or something completly different?
Follow me - @CulturePhilter - Розваги
I think if this connects to the Intelligence at all it’s that bc the master was an ally at that time, the Shalka Doctor mainly fought the Great Intelligence. And to mock the Doctor, the intelligence stole their face as Dr Simeon
Is that a theory that the Shalka Doctor fought the intelligence or some story I’m unaware of?
I just get excited any time I see Paul McGann and Richard E Grant in any proximity! But I'm a 90s kid, so I never attempt anything without the gloves.
Fair. I still have never seen Withnail and I. Must rectify that at some point.
@@CulturePhilter Ah, so that quote meant nothing to you! Oops! Treat yourself sometime - not child--friendly!
@@coleenocasturme Fantastic film though, must re-visit it in the near future!
You must love withnall and I !!!
@@coleenocasturme only that one assumed it was from that film. But no, I have no other context for the quote 😄
It could be the start of trickling in alternate possibilities due to the presence of all these extra-dimensional beings.
The Toymaker did say that he had made a jigsaw puzzle of the Doctor's life, and i expect others are capable of far worse.
Yes. I’m not sure how I feel about that. Alternate dimension doctors I’m down with, incarnations we didn’t know about… sure. But meddling with his prime universe history? Bit more tricky.
Maybe the Toymaker "made" the Doctor into the Timeless Child which made his personal timeline go from linear to scribble-like. That the 8th Doctor regenerated twice because of two timelines of the same reality that are connected. The Peter Cushing Doctor could be canon who had two adventures that were similar to William Hartnell because of again two timelines of the same reality that are connected. And of course it would explain why the fugitive Doctor had a police box Tardis before the 1st Doctor and his granddaughter stole it. Would perhaps make a good 15th Doctor story if he found out that he wasn't born as the Timeless Child but was a change.
* _alternative_ possibilities. "alternate" is a verb.
@buhe1 It seems to be the implication, so i'm just running with that until a better explanation comes along. It's also possible that this is just an easter egg and nothing more.
@@Melkur1981 ah, it may well have been intended as an Easter egg, and they may never go back to it… but it’s on screen now so there is an in-universe explanation for it even no one official has yet or ever will decided what that is 😄 so it’s fun to speculate until they do 😜
Until proven otherwise, I choose to see it as the ship matching up records of people who answered to "the Doctor" and the Shalka Doctor showed up because he had an adventure in the "TV Universe", like how Dr. 10 had his adventure in "Pete's World".
I like that. A solid and simple explanation.
On the president's daughter, Missy originally says in Magician's Apperentince that she has cared for the Doctor "since the cloister wars, since he was a little girl, since he stole the moon and the president's wife" this is followed by the Doctor in Heaven Sent saying the last person to sneak into the cloisters was last heard of when they stole the moon and the president's wife. Clara connects the two and when confronted the Doctor says it was the president's daughter. Never knew that was a Scream of the Shalka reference, interestingly it was referenced in Boom with the Doctor reciting a rhyme that ends with "Don't you know there's more to life than the moon and the president's wife"
Ah yes that’s it. And I thought I’d heard it referenced again this season but wasn’t 100% and couldn’t remember which ep so didn’t mention it.
What I found interesting about this is that Missy claims one of her statements was a lie. At the time it aired it was assumed that the Doctor having been a girl was the lie, but that finale really opened the show to the Timeless Child concept (as much as people hated it)
@@nagato1228 I never hated the timeless child concept… just the execution in the episode itself.
@@nagato1228 the dr says he "never ran away with the presidents daughter it was highly exagerated"
@@arronpraag5495 Actually, the exact exchange was Clara asking "Was she nice, the President's wife?" To which the Doctor replies "That was a lie put out by the Shobogans. It was the President's daughter, and I didn't steal the moon, I lost it."
The broadcast version of Curse Of Fatal Death can be found on the Comic Relief page here - there's also a "feature edit" (combined with a "making of" VHS rip) on another page, which is easily found in the search results
Ah yes, I knew it was officially up somewhere
With how the Time War was able to rip systems and civilizations in and out of reality I'd say it'd be an easy way to make all of these Doctors "canon" at one point. He joins the war proper as 8, fights, dies, regenerates, adventures, that series of events gets retroactively reset and suddenly he's 8 again going off to fight, die, and become someone else, until War finally sets it all to stone.
Yes the time-war is a good catch-all for explaining any contradictions between TV and expanded universe stories. As is the Toymakers line “I made a jigsaw if your history” I guess.
Maybe John Hurt's regeneration is hijacked by The Divison and it is they who send him and the Robot Master on missions. And then they wipe his memory as they did before the Fugitive Doctor became Jon Pertwee.
Maybe
The Shalka story cannot fit within the Doctor's forgotten life. It was established that the Doctor and the Master grew up together, and his presence in the story contradicts this.
True. Perhaps a version of it without the master could.
Variation on a theme, the Shalka Doctor and Eccleston's Doctor are both 9, but from the biregeneration that RTD claims has happened to them all
I’m not sold on the “every Doctor bi-generated” thing. Until it’s committed to in the show itself I’m gonna take that as one of the many things RTD exaggerates for effect in interviews.
It just doesn’t make sense with how he showed bi-generation working on screen. 🤷♂️
The crazy thing is that, according to a post on Instagram, Richard E. Grant dropped by the studio to do a little photoshoot for his face in the montage.
Yes. Makes me wonder if there are already plans to have him in an actual episode.
@@CulturePhilter Yes, it's curious.
Man is the valeyard
@@nurimep - he does look a bit valeyard like there doesn’t he? 🤔
@@CulturePhilter He is not the Valeyard, and if he is RTD is doing a massive disservice to Michael Jayston, who IS The Valeyard. I don't believe for one minute RTD would do that - he has too much respect for that period of Who.
So he could be a future Doctor too. I would have loved it if they’d also included Colin Salmon’s Dr. Moon to confirm him as the Doctor too!
Personally I’ve never been on board with the theory that Dr Moon is somehow a version of The Doctor. Always seemed like far too much of a wishful thinking stretch.
My theory, for what it's worth: The Toymaker made a jigsaw out of the Doctor's past. This may well include pulling in "unofficial" versions from across the multiverse (especially given that RTD has expressed a desire for a "Doctorverse" and that multiversal concepts have always been present within the show). After this occured, the Bigeneration happened. Again RTD has stated that, at least to his mind (and as he's the current showrunner, his mind is really all that matters), the Bigeneration effected ALL incarnations, right back through the Doctor's timeline (but importantly for the show, not forward) - so each past incarnation both regenerated AND stayed the same (solving the issue of how the 2nd and 3rd Doctors had visably aged in the Five Doctors, the 2nd even more so in The Two Doctors, and so on) and actually verbalised by the 7th Doctor in RTD's Tales From the TARDIS (Time streams are complicated - in some I regenerate, in others I don't). SO - given that "unofficial" Doctors can now be bought in ALL Doctor Who can now be considered "canon" (not that this show ever worries about such things, but some fans do, so here is where wiggle room exists for RTD and any future showrunners!). This means that - thanks to the Toymaker - Curse of the Fatal Death, and Rowan Atkinson's Doctor, are now in. In that sketch (penned by Moffat, no less) Atkinson regenerated a number of times - one of those was Richard E Grant. Thanks to the Bigeneration following the Toymaker's meddling, all of those incarnations wandered off for further adventueres - so the Shalka Doctor is THE SAME Richard E Grant from the Curse Of The Fatal Death. And you know what? I bloody love the audacity of it :)
RTDs whole ‘every Doctor bi-generated ‘ statement struck me as him trying to invent a solution to a problem that didn’t exist.
@@CulturePhilter And that's absolutely fair enough. And he didn;t have to - it could just as easily been a one off. For me, it landed differently and actually retroactively makes some things make more sense. PLUS OF COURSE it opens the door for past Doctors to appear as they are now, which I also think is just wonderful. I must say - congratulations for actually having a thread where DISCUSSION takes place and trolls aren't hating for the sake of hate! It is a rare thing. I genuinely hope you are proud of it x
Rowan Atkinson Doctor, somewhere: “so there’s a chance…”
@@williampanic8292 thank you. The trolls occasionally pop up but for the most part people can disagree in a calm and respectful manner.
I do think the possibility of older doctors coming back was already there without this. If this means there are dozens of extra versions doctors running around the prime universe that seems messy and doesn’t fit with what we’re seeing on screen. If he means for them to be in their own timelines… well that could have been the case without bigeneration. In that timeline they just didn’t regenerate at all.
@@CulturePhilter Older Doctors stepping back in to the main show has always been a thing, so yes, of course. What this does, I think, is give a credible in universe explanation as to why the past Doctors have aged, which was always a thing that should never have happened before. It also stops them necessarily being tied to the exact costume they once wore, etc, as their characters would have conceivably altered over the course of their now extended lives. It DOES fit with what we see on screen, because it's long been established that the TARDIS will not land where the Doctor already is, with few rare exceptions and/or Time Lord interference. This used to be controlled and maintained closely by the Time Lords (much like cross dimensional travel) who of course broke their own rules when it suited, but now there is room for "wiggle". As I say, depends how you read it all, and some things sit better with some than with others. If we were all the same it would be a very boring world we live in :)
Fatel?
Enjoyed the vid Phil!
Thanks
I know it's unlikely but could be the valeyard. I also would have thought that if it was the Shalka doctor his hair would have the grey streaks
Maybe he decided to start dying them 😄
The 8th doctor novel mentioned was actually called the gallifrey chronicles. Great book
Oh interesting. I looked it up and TARDIS wiki mentioned the Tomorrow Windows…. Perhaps the description is in both?
Has it been put in to help with writing a future series? I'm just imagining RTD watching all the reaction and theory videos, with all their subsequent comments, picking his favourite theory and putting it in the next script.
😄 wonder if any of my theories will be picked 😄
I have two different possible theories. The first one is that the Great Intelligence sneaked into the Doctors body and hijacked it similarly to the Master at some point during the Time War, creating the Shalka Doctor.
The second is that this is the Shalka Doctor from a parallel universe and the database just records an occasion when this alternate incarnation popped into the main timeline for some reason.
I like that second idea. Wish I’d thought of it to mention in the video 😄
@@CulturePhilter you may use it freely if you plan a part 2 to this video!
This is best summary covering this out there :)
Imo Replace 4 with the fact Rubys arc is all a tv show/trickster/cause toymaker made 4th wall weaker - now his faces reference non canon things now as a technical problem with the universe…
Aaaand the other option - tied a bit to GI -> GI influences the doctor to become the valeyard in his form/actor - we already have a dark doctor theme this season called Vale (played in dot and bubble)
And of course - if rtd said all of the doctors may have bigenerated in the past - a new/different/comic relief line including Richard E Grant is included
And also - the toymaker making a puzzle out of the doctors past!
Thank you. 😊
Personally I’m not on board with the “every Doctor bi-generated” thing. Doesn’t make much sense given what we’ve seen on screen. That may change of course but for now I put it down to RTD just saying something he made up in the moment in an interview and he’ll forget all about.
@@CulturePhilter i am also very not on board with it - hence im scared if they do anything with the Richard E Grant thing, hopefully it wont break the backstory/established plot too much
Grant is going to play the Valeyard. 😂
He did look very Valeyard Esq in that didn’t he.
I really wanted him to say "Oh I don't remember that one"
In fairness to him the holograms we’re facing away from him and he doesn’t look at them, he keeps eye contact with Rogue the whole time.
In Quebec (Canada) we have "Operation Enfant Soleil"
the "red nose" equivalent, biggest fundraiser for kids with terminal illneses.
Cool. Does it take a similar format with lots of comedy sketches throughout the evening?
Apparently Richard E Grant attended a photoshoot for his face appearing in Rogue, and I doubt they would do that if he isn't important to the show's future.
Yes I heard that. I suppose there is a chance he was just in town and willing to do a favour but would make sense that they have plans for him.
I factored it in as the Timeline has been so distorted by The Doctor's interference, that the basic timeline that we used to follow, has now become visually distorted with brand new faces appearing and old faces disappearing. A reverse Butterfly affect that ripples through time.
As an example, the old timeline was The 8 Brain of Morbius Doctors, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8.
Then a specific event changed The Doctors Timeline. We could say it was the Time War.
Now the timeline is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, war, 9, 10, 10, 11, 12.
Another event happened. Could be flux related or alterations/ damage by The Swarm, The Division, or The Flux as well as a series of combing factors involving the planet known as Time.
Now the timeline is The Timeless Children, Fugitive Doctor, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, war, 9, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13.
Another event happened that altered the timeline to it's current iteration seen in Rogue which is: TT Children, Fugitive, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, War, Shalka (presumably), 9, 10, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and then a Bi generation of 14 and 15.
Note however the disappearance of The 8 Brain of Morbius Doctors. They *could* still be regenerations of The Doctor (just that since we don't have proper pics of the actors, they couldn't use them for this scene) but until specified otherwise, we might as well factor in that the regeneration cycle laws may have been altered through time and any regenerations could be taken out at any given moment due to timeline alterations.
Interesting idea. I do think it would be interesting for them to play with changes the Doctor’s personal timeline in the plot. The audios have done that a bit, especially in the Time War series.
Great theory vid
Thanks 🙂
My thinking and one I'd like, is it's something to do with The Great Intelligence, as he did enter the Doctor's timestream and I'd like him to return. I don't know the Shalka story but I've read enough comments that I'd be okay with that.
The one I don't want is The Curse Of Fatal Death. It's a fun little sketch but it should remain that and not become canon in any way.
Yeah Curse should remain a fun parody. It can be an alternate universe where everything is a bit more silly.
I'm really hoping he pops up next year. Russell is going to go crazy with the lore, and I am here for it.
What did you think he’ll pop up as? Shalka version? Curse version?, new version or great intelligence version?
@@CulturePhilter I'm hoping for a new version. Maybe something to do with the timeless children.
What if Richard E Grant has already been decided to be the next Doctor after Ncuti? A bit early to be making those kinds of decisions, but possible
I’d love it if they introduced the next Doctor years before they took over… but I don’t see that being Richard. If only because they are really trying to establish a youthful, energetic vibe at the moment and I don’t see that changing any time soon.
"The curse of fatal death" = "La malediction de la mort fatidique"
would be it's poetic french title. You are welcome friends,
your resident Quebec francophone whovian (i voiced the waiter in the game Doctor Who:Infinity, Michelle Gomez was the person I was talking to in that intro...)
That IS very poetic. Thank you.
And cool claim to fame 🙂
@@CulturePhilter thanks fellow whovian!
OK, kids. This is where it gets complicated.
😄
I blame the salt. Not disappointed by the cameo as I LOVE Scream of the Shalka. But still I blame the salt at the edge of the bloody universe.
That salt has a lot to answer for 😄
The Curse of Fatal Death was Written by Stephen Moffat, so it's as officially unofficial as it's possible to be
The Scream of the Shalka was written by Paul Cornell who has written a lot for Big Finish, and the Master is played By Derek Jacobi who later played the End of time Master - so is about as officially unofficial
A remanent of the Great Intelligence is also possible
The Doctor has wiped himself from databases several times
Also: The Toymaker said "I made a jigsaw out of your history. Did you like it?" ...
Yes I love the fact that both the Doctor and the Master in Scream of the Shalka have both played two incarnations of their respective characters. 😄
I’ve seen a few people say that he could fit in between War and 9th because we didn’t see the full transformation (whether it’s a secret bi-generation where War fully changes into 9th but it later malfunctions which results in him bi-generating most likely for the first time that creates Grant’s 9th Doctor) and the whole 13 regeneration limit was just an exaggeration because that’s what The Doctor ASSUMED was the case if you want to try and explain Time of The Doctor
Obviously it doesn’t have to be the EXACT same Shalka Doctor as there would be tones of issues with that (Gallifrey+The Master) but it’s interesting on whether he’s a previous incarnation or a possible future one along with the question on if he could still be out there that has surprisingly hasn’t come across the main Doctor yet
Good point. It might not be exactly the same Doctor from Shalka but one where SOME similar things have happened to him (maybe he had that adventure without the Master there)
@@CulturePhilter That’s true
A bit interesting how the shot of him in the episode was an entirely new one as someone said that he agreed to a photoshoot for the CGI, probably won’t appear but it’s a bit suspicious and interesting…
Thank you when I saw Richard E Grant I said which one he's played the doctor twice
maybe 14 regenerated again at some time in the future, but a normal regeneration this time, not another bigeneration
It’s possible. We don’t yet know for certain if he’ll regenerates himself or just his energy returns to the point if the bigeneration to become 15 (as some have speculated)
I like the Great Intelligence and Database Error theories best. :)
I’m not that keen on the great intelligence one myself. I kind of like Shalka being a true alternative incarnation rather than some corruption by an evil force. But that’s just my preference.
The best one I have heard is that it literally is The Great Intelligence because he did go into the doctor's timestream.. does he still linger there?, I like the fact that it could be including The Shalka Doctor too..
I really think it is a small set up for something to come way later down the line. pretty sure means the numbering system we have had is going to be abolished.
We’ll always refer to them by those numbers though. Even if it makes no sense in universe 😄
@@CulturePhilter Yeah no of course.. help us keep track easier too.. imagine referring to them all by "actor name" Doctor.. would take so long haha.
@@TardisTalks it’s bad enough having to say “Fugitive Doctor” that’s far too many syllables 🤣
@@CulturePhilter 🤣😂🤣
Maybe the Valeyard Doctor... and it's perhaps a bit of foreshadowing..?
He didn’t look a bit like the Valeyard didn’t he?
@@CulturePhilter@CulturePhilter Unfortunately, the original actor who played the Valeyard, Michael Jayston, has recently passed away; maybe it's a recast and retcon and/or maybe the 'Shalka' Doctor was the Valeyard all along...
@@owenwildish331 oh yes, that’s definitely Richard E Grant’s head, just thought he had a very Valeyard look about him.
Rogue asked ChatGPT for all the previous faces of The Doctor
🤣 love it.
I think somehow the Shalka Doctor was from an alternate universe that was erased, and somehow he became the Watcher.
Interesting theory.
Maybe the Bi-Generation forced a doctor from another reality into the main universe. So the 15th doctor’s roster of regenerations are different than what we are used to, because it is literally a different Time lord.
Maybe … although I’m not sure I personally like that idea. I like him still being the same time-lord.
i'm hoping he's the valeyard
He did have a bit of a Valeyard look about him didn’t he?
Yeah he looked a lot like the valeyard.
I think it might be the split off 14th doctors next face or it could be young Hartnell or it could be a non lore easter egg or it could even be a timless child thing or the 16th doctor
Hmmmm wonder if they’d want him as the next doctor. Or if he’s want to do it
Or it could be complete bollocks. 😂
@@paulholgate4664 thats why i said it could also be a non lore thing
Do Fourteen's potential future incarnations count as also being an incarnation of Fifteens Doctor?
Maybe 14 regenerated into a Richard E. Grant doctor by the time "Rogue" takes place and that's why he's there?
🤔
Ahhhh interesting possibility. We don’t KNOW that 14 will regenerate again, some people have speculate that whe. He does his essence goes back and rejoins the bigeneration to become 15 which is why the line about him doing the therapy has helped 15 works. But I guess it’s all up for interpretation until someone puts something on screen.
@Culture Philter
Yeah a bit of timewimeyness on the _one off_ bigeneration does seem the best fitting answer.
When I saw Richard's face I almost jumped out of my seat! My mind went straight to The Curse of the Fatal Death. I really hope it's that for two reasons:
1) Aside from recognising Richard's Doctor in a official capacity, it makes Rowan Atkinson a true Doctor now and that's just bloody fantastic!
2) More importantly, it makes Joanna Lumley's Doctor canon, thus making her the official first female doctor and as a fan of hers that fills me with so much happiness! (Regardless I'm sticking to that as I have for the last 25 years!)
I do wonder if these will continue in the future. Peter Cushing being an official in-universe Doctor would be mind-blowingly awesome!
I was hoping for a Cushing inclusion in the line-up myself. Would have been fun to theorize how THAT one worked.
6:50
DOCTOR: The last I heard, he stole the moon and the President's wife.
CLARA: Was she er... was she nice, the President's wife?
DOCTOR: Ah, well, 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 was a lie put about by the Shabogans. 𝗜𝘁 𝘄𝗮𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗣𝗿𝗲𝘀𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗻𝘁'𝘀 𝗱𝗮𝘂𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗲𝗿. I didn't steal the moon, I lost it.
(Hell Bent)
Thanks. I didn’t have time to go find the exact wording.
My headcanon is that the Shalka Doctor is a version of the Doctor from a timeline where he kind of fused with the Great Intelligence when he went into his timeline in Name of the Doctor
Ahhh ok. Interesting theory.
Maybe they plan to make the Shalka Doctor canon somehow now that numbering isn't so important anymore. We still call the different Doctors by their numbers of course because that is how we've come to know them, but with the revelations made about the Doctor being the timeless child, it is clear that Hartnell's doctor wasn't the first incarnation using that name.
I personally think the Fugative Doctor comes between 2 and 3. Which means Hartnell could still be the first to use that name.
@@CulturePhilter there are other Doctors before Hartnell though. The ones shown in The Brain of Morbius.
@mikaelhulberg9543
Incarnations but not necessarily Doctors. His name was chosen for a reason.
Still, I'm with Phil on the Fugitive Doctor being at least 1 of the Doctors under the Division between the 2nd and 3rd Doctors. Probably on a separate closed regeneration cycle.
@@mikaelhultberg9543 - yes. No evidence that any of them went by “Doctor” though.
Wow the Scarlet Pimpernel plays the Doctor, sink me... Grant has an amazing range.
I’ve never seen The Scarlet Pimpernel… any good?
My guess/hope is that it's a clue that we might be getting the Doctor regenerating into The Valleyard or it's a Master as Doctor fusion created when The Master put himself into the time stream when he made Jodie's Doctor Force regenerate. 🤔🤞🤞
The current Doctor regenerate? But he’s in next season
@@CulturePhilter I'm not addressing a specific time I think they'll regenerate; I'm just saying WHEN.
Actually, the “Presidents daughter” Line from the twelfth Doctor was him clarifying something that Missy had said to Clara earlier In the season (S9 i believe). The natives of Gallifrey (The shabogans) started a Rumour that the Doctor stole “The moon and the presidents wife” when he left Gallifrey, in reality he actually stole the presidents daughter. A popular fan theory is that “The Moon and the Presidents wife” = “The hand of Omega and Susan”, the 2 things that the 1st Doctor took when he Fled Gallifrey. That also makes the doctors unnamed son/Daughter, and Susan’s parent, a former lord president of Gallifrey.
Moffat brought the “Moon and the presidents wife” back for 15, when he says a poem to himself to calm himself down on the landmine. I don’t think Moffat was thinking of the Shalka when he wrote that line for 12, the “Moon and the presidents wife” is something connected to the doctors origins and the doctor master relationship that presumably only Moffat knows.
Ah that’s right, and 12 clarifies that it wasn’t the presidents wife it was his daughter.
I think he could be a future doctor
So a new version we haven’t seen before but a future one? Or the Shalka Doctor but where those adventures are still to come?
Since Toymaker has played around with The Doctor's timeline, this could be the Shalka Doctor from a future incarnation. I know the Peter Cushing Doctor Who is an alternate universe Doctor, but I would have been SO thrilled to see THAT face. I would have squealed like a tiny Japanese schoolgirl.
Yeah I was hoping for Cushing. 😄
I'm thinking that this whole season has not been in reality, but rather, it is a story. Are they in the Land of Fiction?
I’ve wondered a few times if it’s all going to have been in a TV show of some kind. And Susan Twist is just a reused actor IN-UNIVERSE.
This is a theory I've seen bandied around a few times, and it would make sense of reusing actors, fourth wall breaks, hearing the incedental music etc. There are more than a few ways to justify it too, with the Land of Fiction and / or The Gods of Ragnarock (actually name checked this series, funnily enough) the first to spring to mind.
Rowan Atkinson also plays Johnny English.
Yes he does.
I think it would be cool if the Shalka Doctor was canon!
What’s the best way of doing it do you think? That he comes somewhere else. In Doctor’s timeline (ie he’s not the 9th) or that some bi-generation happened at some point? Or something else?
@CulturePhilter I think that he's most likely a Doctor from a different universe
Ok, wild stab in the dark but what if Richard E Grant is a previously unknown regeneration between 2 and 3? We never actually see the regeneration, and Davies has recommended watching Spearhead from Space before the finale.
Ooo good point about RTD recommending Spearhead. That’s definitely a possibility. I personally put the Fugative Doctor in that gap too because of the police box TARDIS but there could be multiple incarnations between 2 and 3.
Good idea. I'm of the opinion Ruth is at least 1 of the Doctors between 2 and 3 because she has a policebox Tardis and we didn't see 2 regenerate nor who 3 regenerated from.
Perhaps it a multiverse thing and each episode has been set in a different dimension... but all the said dimensions eventually culminate into one, during the finale?
There is consistency with Ruby’s family across epiosdes though
@CulturePhilter hmmm true, but maybe those are "nexus" event type people?? I mean, Ruby's mum is always sitting at the kitchen table and her gran is always in bed.... speaking of which ... a grandparent in bed us another Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory reference... two more I've noticed are the pontoon in Dot and Bubble and the world of pure imagination song that is sang by the Doctor.... keep your eyes peeled for more! Haha!
Also, I saw someone theorise about the number 3 and how it keeps popping up... 3 note chords, S Triad and so on.... perhaps the Bi-generation was actually a Tri-generation?
Maybe the Shakra Doctor Bi-generated along with The War Doctor.
The Great Intelligence could've put himself into the The Shakra Doctor
That is possible. We didn’t see the whole of 8 to War OR War to 9’s regenerations so that could have happened and he ad we didn’t notice.
@CulturePhilter the short clip with that 8th Doctor, Night of the Doctor.
The 8th drinks 🍸 a potion made by a Galifrey witch, turns him into John Hurt.
Then, at the end of The Day to the Doctor, John Hurt regenerates into The 9th, Christopher Ec
So, the Shakra Doctor could've Bi-generated anyway, show runner wants, after The War Doctor.
They could do something like the Meta-Crisis and Bi-Regeneration, along with some new idea.
Side note: means the alternative 1st Doctor is canon as another metaverse reality.
The comedy sketch stretches a reality, it is just a comedy skit, but they could be another metaverse
@@MeNoOther night of the Doctor the camera cuts or pans away from the regeneration before it’s finished I think (if I’m remembering correctly) and we see war’s young face in a reflection.
So there is a brief moment where a no-generation could have happened while we weren’t looking directly at him.
War to 9 we only see the start of the regeneration, we start to see the face change but it cuts away before it completes. So potential that a bi-generation happens in the moments after it cuts away.
The hologram kinda looked like Bob Newhart to me. I know it's not him though.
I had to look him up. It I can kind of see what you mean
I just think it’s another time stream, maybe the time war didn’t happen or the Doctor just didn’t fight and the 8th Doctor just regenerated into Richard E Grant another way, I’m not giving it much thought
That is what the Shalka Doctor has always been considered to be? So you think the machine displayed a holographic head of a doctor from a parallel universe?
@@CulturePhilter Could have, maybe with all the gods and magic coming through it’s messing the universe up and things are slipping through, Richard is the Doctor just from another timestream and maybe that is why he popped up in our universes Doctors
Obviously this proves that The Curse of the Fatal Death is canon!
The longer version had Atkinson, Hugh Grant, Broadbent and Lumley!
But where did it happen in the Doctor’s timeline if it is canon? 🤔
People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
The Red Nose Day Doctor Who has always been canon.
Like when Number 10 met his father-in-law just before crashing into Spaceship Titanic!
@@johngay8416 pretty sure that was Children in Need not Comic Relief
Someone else pointed out that another one of the Doctor’s faces in this scene was when he was visiting Albert Square!
I kinda hope they never explain it, I think it's more fun as a mystery.
That said, I did come up with my own theory 😅
He's a regeneration of the Unbound Doctor from Big Finish.
Ahhh, he came over to the main universe in the Benny audios didn’t he? I’ve not listened to them.
@CulturePhilter Indeed, but I've only just reached that point myself, so there's four or five boxsets that may mess up my theory 😅
It would be hilarious if they put Rowan Atkinson in the next line up of Doctor's faces
That would be funny.
I would've loved to have seen the Morbius Doctors as well.
Yeah, always good to see those guys 😀
How the heck can people tell that that face was Richard Grant? Looks as much like Trevor Martin to me as Richard Grant.
I certinally didn’t clock it on first viewing but when I saw direct side by side comparisons I could see it. And apparently it was confirmed that Richard posed especially for it.
It’s on dvd too
Shalka. Yes it is. I have it. 🙂
It certainly helped the mystery by keeping the sequence of Doctors all messed up.
If this ties into the Great Intelligence getting into the Drs timeline, what if that somehow triggered a Bi Generation that made a faux version of the Doctor who was really an amnesiac Great Intelligence?
Or maybe this is some variation of the Valeyard, since I believe the original actor has now passed?
And I'm still holding out that there might be additional Doctors between Troughton and Pertwee since we never saw them complete the process. Maybe Grants Dr is an in-between 2 and 3 Dr? We know the Time Lords can grant more regen cycles, what if they forced the 2nd Dr to regenerate into another face such as Grants Dr (might explain the Android Master looking like Delgardo) who later decided to retire and run off with the Presidents daughter? Maybe even Ruth could be a secret incarnation between 2 and 3 who later rebelled anyhow, since she is after all, The Doctor. Repress memories of any and all incarnations between 2 and 3 and tidy up by topping up the regen cycle, et viola.
He does look a bit like the Valeyard there 🤔
Between 2 and 3 is where I put Fugative Doctor.. but could be more in there too.
@@CulturePhilter I've always wondered if perhaps Tobey Jones "Dream Lord" was some sort of prelude to the Valeyard as well. They certainly seemed to share certain traits, and at that time it was up in the air if 11 was really the 12th Doctor because of the Meta crisis/Spare Hand Dr.
Then we found out he was the last of that regen cycle.
@@NoFormalTraining I don’t think I’ve ever rewatched the Dream Lord ep after the initial airing. I should go back at some point.
@@NoFormalTraining I don’t think I’ve ever rewatched the Dream Lord ep after the initial airing. I should go back at some point.
I just assume that some timelines and whole Doctors just get wiped out by events that the Doctor causes at some other point. Time-y wime-y.
Almost certainly. Big finish did an 8th Doctor Time War story where a whole companion of his was erased and he didn’t remember her.
@@CulturePhilter Happened to Pete too, stepped on a butterfly and ceased to exist.
He looks like morgus from the caves of androzani
Similar hairline certainly 😄
Here’s a theory…
What if the master trapped inside the gold Tooth is Richard E Grant! & he pretends to be the doctor! Even meets the doctor in a future episode has a tardis etc. the master wanted to be the doctor when he stole “Jodie/13th” doctors body! So what if he regenerates and created a plan to become the doctor. So through out time “mainly the future” everyone thinks it’s him. Missy tried being the doctor also.
I never got Dhawan Masters plan. Didn’t make sense to me. He still looked like the Master. What was the point… what was Actually different? Was very odd.
@@CulturePhilter agreed! That’s why I think added this new detail will make past stories lot more relevant. This is also why I believe the doctor Bigenerated due to what the master did to the doctors body. If the Richard E Grant comes true we can have a great story from it
Haven't watched the episode yet. Did they show Eccleston's face? My guess is that Davies is going to retcon him out because of the falling out.
Eccleston was in there too
@@CulturePhilter Then it's got to be the great intelligence, right? Would a bi-generated doctor be in your line of regeneration? It would be the equivalent of your uncle, but not your grandpa, right? I'm confused.
@@jameshamilton6381 I don’t buy the whole “every Doctor bi-generated” thing. Based on how it happens with 14 you’d SEE it when they regenerated. The only regen we didn’t see the end of was 3 and war so I GUESS either of those could have bigenerated.
@@CulturePhilter it could have happened between Mcgann and the war doctor also... We only saw the reflection. Why go through all of this trouble to "fix" season 6b but make everything more wonky in exchange?
@@jameshamilton6381 true I guess it could have fit there.
Possible teaser for the Sixteenth Doctor?
While that would be fun I don’t think they’d cast someone Richard’s age again. They seem very intent on making the show “youthful”.
That is a still of Richard E Grant now, not 25 years ago, or the Shalka Doctor which had distinctive sideburns, who's coming back????
True. But the Shalka Doctor could have lived a long time to end up looking like that.
Absolutely, point being it's not a throw away image, although most of this season has had no explanation, so I wouldn't be surprised if this goes nowhere.
@@Andy-ur1pz yeah, apparently he even came in especially to pose for the image. So make me think he’ll be showing up at some point. If not in next two eps then next season.
@@CulturePhilter Christmas special??
gosh, I'm only just catching up on this video, since I'd had to wait a week after broadcast to watch Rogue because I was away, and I was sitting there thinking "I bet he gets the "the" placement wrong on the curse of fatal death" and then you brought up in the video that I'd called you out on making that mistake before🤣now I feel a bit mean because I was absolutely sitting here waiting to comment if you got it wrong.
If you're interested to know, here are the variations you attempted in this video:
Curse of Fatal Death ❌
The Curse of the Fatal Death ❌
Curse❌
The Curse of Fatal... and then you cut yourself off, if you'd said "Death" you'd have had it right
Curse of Fatal Lef ❌⁉
Curse of Fatal Death ❌ (again)
I'm literally your worst viewer, is this the only thing I do?
I knew you’d correct me! 🤣
And when did I say “Lef” ? I blame the microphone audio quality 😜
@@CulturePhilter You definitely said Lef at one point. I may have made a video about this...
Didn’t The Doctor mention the trap opened a rift to other dimensions? What if the scanner picked up on that?
At that point Rouge had said it opened up to “the incinerator”. And later the Doctor reprograms it to send them to a random barren dimension.
Although it must have had the ABILITY to do that somehow foot him to be able to reprogram it I guess
I think Richard e grant would have been good at the dr part I mean like the othered he reminds me of the 8th dr.
Have you seen Scream of the Shalka? It’s available on DVD and worth a Watch.
He is the face of the Valeyard
It’s been confirmed it’s Richard E Grant, he posed for it specifically… although I will grant you it does have a valeyard feel to it.
The logical answer is that the machine messed up and got it wrong. Also i feel like it doesn't make sense that Fugitive there cause why suddenly she appears now on the doctors database when she didn't before.
Fair point. I guess not everyone’s database is going to have the exact same info on the Doctor and this one just happens to have caught wind of fugitive?
@@CulturePhilter But the time lords made sure that all that timeless child stuff was kept sercet from everyone so its weird a random database has it.
I just don't like how they keep forcing Fugitive into the main Doctors when she's not and also she part of TC and none of them are put with the main so why she so special.
@@vortexalliance9938 personally I still think Fugative is between Doctor’s two and Three.
But I take your point about time lords wiping the information.
@@vortexalliance9938 Something else that comes to mind with the Fugitive Doctor being there (wherever they fit into the Doctor's timeline) is where are all the others we haven't seen yet? Surely we should have had a Brain Of Morbius style scene.
The only reason I can think of Fugitive being there is that she's in the Doctor's known memory, something all the others aren't.
@@CulturePhilterI don't like that idea cause it feels like it's trying to steal something from 2 cause the 6b theory(more like fact now) was him.and 3 was wearing 2 outfit in his first e.
I think it's best to just say Fugitive an unbound doctor
IMO, until or unless we have seen the Doctor regenerate into or from a certain incarnation of the Doctor that we know for sure is onscreen canon, than that person isn't the Doctor. So the Valyard, the Curator, the Shalka, the guy who was talking to the little girl and ALL of the Timeless Child Doctors aren't the Doctor.
Fair enough. There is certainly room with that for a future showrunner to go “ahhhh you only THOUGHT they were the Doctor but it was actually an unreliable narrator”
@@CulturePhilter Oh yeah and Ruth
@@MarvelX42 I however take the opposite tack. I assume everything is true unless it is contradicted. So until we’re told in the story that the timeless child wasn’t accurate (because the Matrix record has been tapered with or something) I’ll assume the info given in it was accurate
@@CulturePhilter I guess I am Fox and you are Dana. lol I mean, we KNOW that The Master is a mass murdering, egotistical, delusional, megalomaniacal, evil being who has controlled the Matrix before. And that Tecteun claims to have experimented on/murdered several children. IMO she is as bad or worse than the Master. She definitely can't be trusted and therefore (again IMO) can't be believed. I mean, as a fan, I find all of this interesting, but I don't believe any of it. Also, either he himself or the BBC are holding him back from definitively, rock solidly nailing down that this stuff is true. They are leaving alot of outs. If he wanted to and could nail it down, why isn't he? I mean maybe it's because it would piss off nearly all of the old guard fan base, but "Who knows?"
Maybe it’s showing Loki 😂
The marvel/Doctor who crossover we need
I think there is going to be some sort of link to "Inferno" and multi- verse. I'm convinced Richard E Grant's appearance is foreshadowing perhaps an alternate Doctor from the "Inferno" universe and nothing to do with any past appearance. We've already been told there is a link to The Third Doctor.
That would be interesting and could be the tie to the 3rd Doctor’s era that was hinted.
@@CulturePhilter I would love to see Richard E Grant as some form of The Doctor even if only for a fleeting moment
That would be delicious. BUT the 3rd Doctor story that RTD has recommended viewing before the finale is Spearhead From Space, sadly, not Inferno :(
@@williampanic8292 true. I wonder if he’s just messing with us with that though. Surly it can’t be Autons for the finale.
@@CulturePhilter I would hope not, but I wouldn't put anything past him. It may not actually be the villains of the piece that we're looking out for, it could be anything - a concept, a story beat, a background character...of course it could also be the Nestene Consciousness as opposed to just Autons...who knows! I think I'm done trying to second guess the man for this series, I'm just sitting back to enjoy the ride :)
RTD said every Doctor bi generated so I wonder if the 8th doctor changed into Grant in his split off timeline
Yeah I’m not buying that “every Doctor no-generated” at least until its canonized on screen.
It doesn’t make sense with how we saw bi-generation work. It doesn’t create different timelines, and we SEE the split, so any Doctor where we’ve seen the whole regeneration it can’t have been a bigeneration.
Potentially 3 and war could have bigenerated I guess as we don’t see the end of their regenerations. But I don’t buy it for any others.
Shalka COULD therefore be after war. Which would keep his 9th designation.
I wouldn't put too much stock into it when RTD says things like that. It's more of a reaction to that certain group of so-called fans regarding the bi-generation, rather than anything canon in the show. For one, we know from what's been shown on screen that the previous regens weren't bi-generations. The Doctors themselves confirm it. 🙂
@@CulturePhilter fair enough 😂
@@Elwaves2925 yeah, Russell does say a lot of stuff that makes no sense in interviews and never end up in the actual show so I’m choosing to ignore that. If he puts something about it on screen in an ep that’ll be different but until then, ignored.
@@CulturePhilter except that this is a show about time travel, where we follow the protagonist along his own timeline. Anything that happened, we saw while it happened as the character experienced it. If anything happens now to change what originally happened, it wouldn't change what we saw the first time those events happened, but it would have still happened retroactively from this point on. Wibbly wobbly and all that... As much as we'd like to, we can't focus on the "if it's not onscreen it didn't happen" rule, because SO MUCH happens off screen between episodes that we just accept as it is. So all we can go on is what the current showrunner says it is. It may of course change under the next showrunner, whether it's stated on screen or not!
So the Plannet Tursourous destroyed when they discovered fire my feature again?
Sorry you might need to rephrase that. I can’t actually understand what you are trying to say or ask.
@@CulturePhilter in the curse of the fatal death the planet was inhabited by people who could only communicate by farting. The civilian ended when fire was discovered.
Thats 2 theories i can see.. 1 is the shard of Great Intelligence got thru,the other is fake news!!🤷♂️🤣✌️🍻
1. It’s curse of fatal death Doctor (displaying an alt universe Doctor)
2. It’s Shalka Doctor (either alt universe or retconing Shalka to be a different place in his time line)
3. Great intelligence
4. Fake news
5. It’s a new previously unknown version of the Doctor (ie: it’s not curse or Shalka) that slots into the line up somewhere we didn’t realise.
“Fatel Death”?
Whoops. Hey I’m dyslexic 🤷♂️
Richard E. Grant beat Ncuti to the post of being the first African Dr Who 😋
Oh? Was he born in Africa?
Yes he's not English he's South African
@@christophercleary6780 ahhh I didn’t know that.
My headcanon is he's a pre hartnell face
A previously unknown one or that the Shalka Doctor is pre-Hartnell?
@@CulturePhilter I'm saying a previously unknown one because the Master is with Shalka but also there could be an explanation that makes Shalka fit pre hartnell
@@kylerees3491 yeah I think that’s the most likely too.
@@kylerees3491 the Master is Shalka is a robot. It could be that Division created a robot based on a future incarnation of the Master in order to control the Doctor better.
10:00. In regards to the database, is everyone ignoring the fact that the Doctor tossed his psychic paper at the scanner? The faces are then coming from the Doctors memories not a database.
(Edited for spelling)
I assumed that was just the only thing he had on him that he could throw to hit the button but I suppose it could have been more than that.
@@CulturePhilter i mean this completely respectfully, but the Doctor made a point of throwing the paper, he even told Rogue "Look" when he threw it, so why on earth would anyone think they wrote "the Doctor throws his psychic paper at the scanner" if it held no significance. Again I mean no offense, just feel like thats a wierd thing to overlook when it was far from subtle.
@@artist_37 I’m not saying you’re wrong. It could well be that. I just don’t think it’s AS obvious as you do. He’d already had his sonic taken from him and that’s the only other thing he regularly carries, plus he just had it in his hand when it said Rouge was hot. So makes sense to use that as the throwing object regardless.
But it’s a good thing theory. I like it.
@@CulturePhilter its not a theory though...why are you so stuck on it just being the only thing he could throw? That makes no sense and discredits the writers. And he has used psychic paper on machines several times, he very clearly used it to make the scanner show to Rogue proof he was not a Chuldur. Why would he say "look" and throw it at the scanner (which has already scanned him as a shapeshifter) if he wasnt using it to get a different result? If it was any other object it would have just returned the same scan Rogue got. Its VERY obvious.
@@artist_37 of course it’s a theory. It’s your interpretation of what you saw on screen but it’s not confirmed anywhere, there ARE other possible explanations.
Not sure why you’re so bothered by me referring to it as a theory, I’m not saying you are wrong. I like it, I think it fits really well and is the most probable reason…. But “most probable” is not the same as a confirmed fact.
*Fatal* Death
I know. Realised I’d spelt it wrong too late. 🤷♂️
Maybe they just needed a face because they didn't want three Tenants.
So you’re saying it’s the meta crisis Doctor when he got old? 🤣 love it
@@CulturePhilter No I'm just thinking they didn't want to have three Tennants there and decided that Richard E Grant could fill the spot. I'd actually forgotten about the Comic Relief thing, but he does have the benefit of representing both alternate timelines. Peter Cushing would have worked for me too
@@timwillan3223 I think if they just didn’t want to have 3 Tenants they’d just not gave 3 Tenants. There isn’t a particular need to fill the slot. They’d just have less heads floating around.
@@CulturePhilter Yeah but then somebody would notice they were missing a regeneration even if he didn't change face.
You can almost hear someone whine about why they included the War Doctor but not the Meta Doctor.
@@timwillan3223 I don’t think I’ve ever, until now, seen some highlight that meta crisis isn’t in these type of scenes (by which I mean the many times all the doctor’s face have been shown like this)
I’m still not convinced… looks more like Christopher Walken to me.
I believe RTD confirmed that they actually got Richard E Grant to come in to be photographed especially for it.
@@CulturePhilter RTD lies! 🤣
@@JustinMansfieldWho lol. True but don’t see why he’s lie about that
I thought rouges stuff was muti dimensional
You mean his ship and equipment?
5:55 I am going to be very blunt and say that so far I have not watched any of this new season... I saw teh Christmas Specials which were GREAT for the most part (I was not keen on Wild Blue Yonder... Sorry!)... Main reason being I dont have nor want a TV Licence and here in the UK you have to have a TV License to watch any broadcast Television or use BBC iPlayer...
... Much as I love Doctor Who and have since I was a child (Way too many Years ago - Tom Baker, The 4th Doctor will always be MY DOCTOR) - I dont watch TV generally so £170 a Year to watch a few episodes of Doctor Who? Nah... Not worth it! (And the BBC have been clever... While Doctor Who is on Dinsey + ... Thats only outside the UK so you cannot even legally stream it to watch it without BBC iPlayer!)
So, with the fact I have not seen teh episode, I have not been able to count the Floating Heads... Did they show EVERY incarnation of the Doctor? If so... Including the Renegade Doctor who I know from another review was featured... There should have been (Works it out... Bloody hell!) - 16 Different images including the War Doctor...
If that is the case... Then the Head that people are saying is Richard E. Grant is actually in fact SYLVESTER MCOY... Last time we Saw McCoy as The Doctor was in teh Chibnall Era, and his hair is much shorter now... He looks nothing like he did when he originally played the Doctor with his very wild Curls...
Even looking at the Stills in this video... I am sure that is supposed to be Sylvester McCoy, but rather than using an image from "His time as the Doctor" - It appears the BBC may have used art / photos from the Chibnall Era! Now, Of course as I have not see the episode to count how many faces are seen... I could be wrong!
So, If I am right - In teh episode you should be able to count 15 Faces of the Doctor... Remove Ncuti Gatwa as he is currently the Doctor... So 15 Holographic Faces... However, If there are 16 -Then Richard E. Grant is 100% there!!!
WOAH BOY! Have I just set a challenge to all my fellow Whovians... Go back and rewatch the episode and count how many faces are on screen in that sequence!!! GOD I AM EVEN TEMPTED TO DO IT!!!!
Just for the record though - I am NOT trying to dismiss Richard E. Grants Doctor... Oh GOD NO! Richard E. Grant was always one of my TOP PICKS to play The Doctor in a Revival - And even when the show was first announced to return Pre-2005... I WAS BEGGING THAT HE BE CAST AS THE DOCTOR!!! Grant to me has always had something that screams Doctor Who, Long before I ever came across Scream of the Shalka!!!
The idea that Grants Doctor is now CANON... OH GOD YES, My only disappointment is that we have NEVER had him play the Doctor Long Term on TV... Even now, much older, I still think he would be a PERFECT DOCTOR!!!
However, I know that Fans can be Obsessive... And will make their own Head Canon to make their dreams a reality (I am a Star Wars Fan too... I do this to justify many flaws in Star Wars and it does have flaws!!!) - But answering if it is Grant is Simple... HOW MANY FLOATING HEADS? 15 and IT IS NOT... 16 and WAIT A MOMENT...
No Sylvester was on there separately. And we know Richard E Grant posed for it.
The fugitive Doctor was there if that’s who you mean.
@@CulturePhilter No, I was actually talking about McCoy... Again.. Not watched as I dont pay the Tv license... So I dont watch Broadcast TV... Hence why I asked the question... Had anyone counted how many faces there were? I genuinely DO NOT KNOW... Because I have not seen it!
And just to reiterate - DAMN! THIS MAKES ME HAPPY! Because Grant was always a dream pick for me to play the Doctor! Its just a shame we will never see him take the mantle on our screens properly...
@@Phoenix2312 oh by the way “renegade Doctor” you meant Mcoy?
Sorry the way you were asking that but made me think it was a serperate question to the Mcoy stuff.
And my replay was about two separate points - the Mcoy thing (he’s on there seperatly) and the renegade things. Reading my reply back I’m not sure that was clear. 🙂
@@CulturePhilter Not a worry... I am just glad REG has been canonised!!! Even if its a bit messy Lore wise... LOL!
just put in there to get fans talking as the show is not popular now
“Not popular”? It’s still popular amounts millions of people in the Uk alone. 🤷♂️
I think this whole series is in some way fake perhaps due to the Toymaker. Let us see as we still have another doctor in reserve and perhaps something decent although I believe session 2 is already in the can before they knew how badly Ncuti playing Eric playing the Doctor would be received. Sorry not touching grass as affects my eczema Ncuti thank you..
I’ve seen mostly praise for Ncuti’s performance. And would agree with that praise, him and Millie have been incredibly watchable. Great chemistry.
you also misspelt "fatal". ua-cam.com/video/CskUUijw7lM/v-deo.html
Yeah, I know 😄
Richard E Grant would make a great doctor, but the script are just shit
Which script?
Completely pointless cameo, unless Richard e grant is going to be in a future episode this was pointless
Maybe he is. Even if he isn’t m, it’s fun to speculate how he could be there.
@@CulturePhilter if he is in a future episode them fair enough, I’ve always wanted Richard to play the doctor
I like the 6b idea.
I think a lot can fit there. I assume Fugative Doctor also goes there.