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I was born in Minnesota, the Lutheran capital of America. However, I was born a Catholic; and didn’t convert to Lutheranism until a while back. However, I am now more proud than ever to be from the heart of Lutheran America!
As a southerner that lived in the upper Midwest for a time, I didn't feel that Lutheranism held anywhere near as much cultural and political power there as Baptists do in the south. I knew far more atheists than Lutherans or even other Christians. I was truly shocked by how much of the people around me up there were aggressively atheist and even anti-Christian. I'm not saying this as a sob story or anything, but just as an observation. I would be surprised if that region united around any religious belief.
Regardless of whether or not the faith maintains a strong hold in that region, what remains is the culture that faith helped build. Lutheran America is a fitting term given the unity Lutheranism was able to provide to a population of German and Scandinavian immigrants, but that unifying identity has largely solidified, though not nearly as much as it has for the Baptist South.
As an upper Midwesterner who has lived in the South (well, Missouri) for a time, I largely agree, though in rural areas like where I'm from there aren't so many atheists.
I'm a Lutheran (Lutheran church Missouri synod specifically), and my thoughts are that that it is unlikely for a Lutheran state to emerge in America. That is unless the LCMS and ELCA churches combine, which I highly doubt will happen, as in the LCMS churches we are taught that ELCA members are really not even Lutheran, and I'm willing to bet it's the same in ELCA churches. Though one thing I can say is that ELCA churches are loosing members at a much higher rate than LCMS churches, so if the Lutheran america did happen, it would be likely for it to have a majority LCMS population, with the ELCA either assimilating into the LCMS, or becoming a Democratic vs Republican style rivalry that we have in the USA today.
I agree I’m LCMS from the dakotas and regional culture seems to be based more in the local group rather than faith. I can’t see the LCMS and the ELCA ever entering fellowship because of the respective teachings on closed communion or lack thereof. If a Midwest splinter state were to form I would wager that it would be based more on geography rather than Lutheran fellowship.
@Three Emperors If it happens, then it will probably be in a way where it's still part of the USA, but the USA becomes more like the UK. Where it has nations inside it, but you can travel between nations at will (or at least I think that's how the UK works). In which case the baptist nation, the Mormon nation, and the Lutheran nations would all be their own nations inside the country. I don't see a split up coming between the USA for a long time, unless everyone just decided they wanted out all at once.
The ELCA teaches more in line with mainline Christians now. Any church that teaches critical theory to interpret the Bible or affirms homosexuality is a dead end to most LCMS, and nearly all WELS. Use all the isms or obias you want but know that devout people won’t change their views to make you feel more comfortable. I’m ELS (sister to WELS) and there is a general mood that legality is acceptable (sometimes even desired) if the state leaves us alone.
I'm also LCMS (from Missouri in fact) and yeah, I don't think Lutherans would split from the US. I would say my primary argument for this is that as I was taught in a LCMS private school, Separation of Church and State both was and is good. Render unto caesar and all that. I also think the level of 'I just want to Grill' is quite high.
@@jakman2179 Do you think it has to do with the fact that Germany was religiously divided while being (nominally) politically united? Scandinavia was homogeneous but the welfare system was separate from the church.
@@timetogitgud2310 Probably around Southern Texas the California where a large Catholic Hispanic population resides expanding far north as Quebec. I'd add South Florida in there too since many Cuban exiles live there .
Due to increased immigration from catholic states such as Mexico and the decline of the WASP demographic in the coming decades, I see a catholic majority (or at least regional majority) as a big possibility
@@thorpeaaron1110 I’d also imagine the west coast of the USA and maybe Canada? The reason for why I say it is because of not only Hispanic migrants, but maybe Filipino migrants too? Also the historic Spanish presence and Spanish missions
I know as a Lutheran(LCMS I think) the church generally seems encourages the separation of church and state. The catechism I got actively teaches that God gave rulers the duty of looking out for the populace`a physical needs, and the clergy the duty to care for their spiritual needs
@Bosnia sucks Traditional churches of any denomination generally have, but then there's revivalist movements in all denominations including Lutheran going to the other direction.
There was a small but significant group of Norwegian Lutherans that settled in the Gulf Coast, like New Orleans and Pensacola. Basically, those Nords that worked on boats, fished, sailed, or anything to do with water settled on the Gulf Coast with warmer waters.
I’m Lutheran (ELCA) though my mother was raised LCMS Lutheran and my dad was raised Catholic. One thing I’ve learned recently is that the LCMS wasn’t always as conservative as it is today. It used to have a sizable moderate wing but they were pushed out in the midst of Seminex, and a small portion of the LCMS denomination splitted and joined the ALC and LCA to form the ELCA
I read "Lithuanian america" That is also a video suggestion I want to hear about Lithuanian america Edit: so it appears this comment has been hearted. That means that we could be getting a Lithuanian america video
Mormon America, Baptist America, Lutheran America - dang, I now want to see all these Americas on a single map. That would probably be best for when you've finished up this little mini-series of yours. What other Americas do you have in mind? Catholic America? Islamic America?
Catholic America also has some potential in the Midwest, with significant agrarian Catholic communities springing up in Kansas, the Dakotas, Wyoming, and I'm even planning on setting one up in Minnesota.
Baptists and Methodists generally have ancestry from the British isles. Lutherans with Germany, and Scandinavia. So you can generally guess an American's ethnic ancestry by their religion.
@@sw3783 He did say "generally". All the above replies make it seem like he didn't. What he said is true, you can GENERALLY GUESS ethnic ancestry by religion. GENERALLY.
As a Canadian who lives in Manitoba this is the first time I’ve even heard of Lutheranism. Though my ancestry at least European side can be tracked back to Scandinavia so it is kind of interesting to learn of the history of that
Should do a video on the future of Orthodoxy. There’s a good number of zoomers in the West who convert to it, while simultaneously there’s massive depopulation in Eastern Europe where Orthodox Christianity is concentrated
Hi Mr. Z, Great video overall, but, as a Lutheran, I do have a few critiques to a comment earlier in the video. Namely, the points about Luther's theology. While Luther did believe in the priesthood of all believers, he also strongly supported a divinely instituted Pastoral office. The idea that early Lutherans wanted a more decentralized church is historically false, and is more a political reality. In Scandinavia, Lutheranism remained and still remains centralized. In Germany, the desire was for their to be bishops, but because of political situations, Superintendents were established to fill the same role. Philip Melancthon, the man who wrote several of the Lutheran Confessions, actually said the Lutherans would except the Pope as head of the Church, if he admitted it was by human right, and that he was equal to other clergy. Finally, your point that Luther advocated for a more personal interpretation of Scripture is partly true. He did believe that each Christian should read the Word of God themselves, and be able to understand. However, he did not favor novelty. That's why he affirmed the creeds, affirmed the confessions, and used the Fathers and other Christians so liberally. He believed that orthodoxy was important, not novelty. So your kinda true, but not really. I hope this serves as an honest critique of some of the theological points you mentioned. Again, I think the rest of the video was well done, these just needed clarification. Beat wishes.
@Three Emperors Yes, and no. There were, and are, state Lutheran Churches. The Scandinavian chruches are like that. However, the royal influence within them varied greatly. The one that was most like the English was the Norwegian. The Danish monarchs did, and still do, govern the Church, but stay out of theological matters. Sweeden, and the Baltics, were almost entirely run by the Bishops. In the German states, it varied. Like In Prussia, the King tried to force unionism, which led a lot of German Lutherans coming to America. However, despite this state control, it was never the desire of the earliest Lutherans to be independent from other Lutherans. They wanted to retain the episcopal structure, and manage their regions, as had been the Church's practice for 1500 years. They were okay with diocese and regions, but they never wanted autonomous churches. Remember, the goal wasn't to start a new church, but reform the Roman one. To this effect, it's common for Lutherans to say we didn't leave, we got kicked out.
@@gagegarlinghouse258 I like it when Lutherans address themselves as the true Western Catholic Church. Rome was the one that left, Lutherans stayed true to the Gospel.
I'm an ELCA minister, and another difference in the LCMS and ELCA in relation to the Roman Catholic church is that during and after the formation of the ELCA there was a movement similar to the Oxford movement in Anglicanism, where we began to embrace even more more High Church ritual and realigning with more with Catholicism as a whole, rather than retaining more the reformed/protestant aspects in our churches that were adopted through immigration to the Americas.
As a huge fan, I’m still waiting for the new chapter of the Scar Nicholas. I want to see how Mr.H went to Siberia and crushed the Bolsheviks and Japanese and what happens to him after he meets the Tsar. I believe that Mr.H befriend with Baton Ungeren and help the Korean independence troops to wipe out the Japanese. And for the alternate history, I’d like to see the What if Dollfuss survives from assassination and then allied with Italy to avoid Anschluss and join the allies in the WW2. And I’d like to see the scenario that what if the Sino-Soviet conflict in 1969 caused the WW3, What if Britain annexed the US after the war of 1812, What if the USA used nukes during the Korean War, What if Korea and Japan becomes a colony of France and the US by each, what if the Mongolian Army conquered Japan and India, and what if Soviet Red Army marches to Manchuria during the attles of Khalkhin Gol.
I didn't expect this! Now I'm hoping you have a whole series in mind already! Though one thing is for certain: the whole "join or die" mentality is underrated here because trying to draw lines of division along ANY boundary in the US will doom everyone on both sides as a Balkanized society. I was gonna suggest "Is Catholic America inevitable?" but I fear the discussion is gonna be too blackpilled, since the clergy in the American Church is VERY conservative, and any Catholic who sticks with the faith into their mid-20s is also going to be VERY conservative, they are overshadowed by posers. This is why California and New England are so left-wing but still called Catholic. They identify as such but don't do anything else except occasionally go to Mass. Those who stay true are often on the downlow and have to learn to contend with bad actors. My perspectives is that without a universal authority stepping in and firmly declaring "NO, THAT IS HERESY!" to these posers, we're ultimately a headless chicken. I implore Pope Francis and his immediate successor to remember what their role is. I went to a diocesan listening session where we give feedback as a group, and we were all practically begging the clergy to be leaders outside Sunday Mass
I see many people especially conservatives moving to Orthodoxy due to the weakness of the Catholic and Protestant Clergy. So I wonder if one day we will have a significant population of Orthodoxians.
Your statement that American Lutherans desire a religion that doesn't openly delve into social politics is being reflected throughout a lot of the ELCA Synod. Many churches are choosing to join smaller Synods within their states or, with more conservative elements, joining the Missouri Synod. With the ELCA being still fairly new, only officially being coined as a synod in the 80's, its recent trend towards commenting on or holding official stances on social issues like homosexuality, immigration, and race relations is inadvertantly forcing member churches to take their own stances or step out altogether, and I think it will greatly impact the future of the church as a whole in the future. Great video!
It should be noted that ELCA has a large proportion of 49er Germans who do not share the same views as more conservative LCMS/WELS Germans who came after famine in Europe. Aside from the cultural differences between the major Lutheran bodies, we exclude ourselves from the other on some pretty deep theology that is more incompatible with each other than most. Mainly on the subject of closed communion and the meaning of the service of the sacrament as a whole. The LCMS teaches strict doctrine on what communion is and what it does, we also teach that it can be taken to your and others’ harm, so we are careful with how it is handled. The ELCA (usually) teaches open communion for all who come, which is a direct contradiction to what the LCMS confesses. From the perspective of holy communion being the single most important part of worship on Sundays, there would be little chance of reconciliation between the two. For the record, nobody is going to hell over any of these disagreements, but both synods are trying their best to uphold scripture to its full intent. I view the ELCA as misguided as they probably view me.
That was fun! LCMS and WELS Lutherans really don't feel that much kinship with ELCA Lutherans these days. ELCA now permits female and homosexual pastors, something that horrifies Confessional Lutherans a lot. Interesting video though.
I am a Minnesotan Catholic who goes to a Missouri Synod Lutheran school and there are actually quite a few interesting things I’ve noticed, the Lutherans have a lot less knowledge of what happened before the reformation and stuff that they took out of the Bible. I remember I was telling everyone about purgatory and why we “pray to saints” (which is more of us asking for them to pray for us) but it’s interesting to see all their differences and have them be like wait, Catholics do that? The Lutherans and the Catholics believe in a lot of similar stuff culturally too, they are both pro-life, conservative, don’t believe in women church leaders, and are anti gay marriage. I even saw a flier on their church board to support a Catholic charity. There are also a lot more Catholics in the Midwest then you would think and most of them are pretty conservative. There are a lot more things I could talk about and if anyone has any questions I would love to respond.
Surprised you didn't mention WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) as it is even more conservative than LCMS. Confessional Lutheranism is much stronger in the US. than it is here in Norway, unfortunately. Probably because our state Church, that has traditionally had a monopoly on religion in this country, became so liberal after WWII
Aren’t there only 2-5 individual churches in fellowship with the WELS in Norway? What’s interesting about Norwegian Lutherans is that those who come from a more “orthodox” Lutheran background (with ties to the National church) joined synods which eventually joined the ELCA and vote Democratic. On the other hand, Norwegians from the pietistic tradition of Hauge joined more Congregationalist less-orthodox, yet more conservative synods like the LB, AFLC, and (the not even Lutheran) E-Free churches and vote Republican. Conservative orthodox Lutherans tend to be German (WELS and LCMS) with the notable exception of the ELS (essentially the Norwegian WELS) Vennligste hilsener fra Minnesota
The ELCA may still be large but its turn to the left has lost it a lot of congregations, There are a growing number of independent Lutheran Churches which left the ELCA starting with the ELCA move to Ordain Gay ministers, and continuing with the ELCA's move to the left to try and move with the perceived culture. I remember going to an ELCA church back home a while ago and being shocked at how much it had changed, I actually attend Missouri Synod Church for service where I live now, and it is almost exactly like the ELCA church I had grown up in, I think the ELCA is going to have to hit the breaks hard, there are even some projections that the ELCA will basically cease to exist by 2040, though I am not sure how accurate those projections are, but simply because many ELCA congrigations are going Independent or switching to WELS or MLS, I think the ELCA will loose a lot of its power, it will eventually become nothing more than the synod for the far flung left wing churches else where in America.
I am a of Dane ancestry from North Iowa, I hardly ever head south from here as it’s very sparsely populated from the north to the central Iowa. I didn’t realize that southern Iowa was not a a Lutheran as the Northern half as I only ever see Lutheran churches in my area. This was interesting to learn about
Lutheranism was originally identical to Catholicism minus the Pope, it wasn't until the Calvinists infiltrated the German church that Lutheranism became more Protestant, however in Scandinavia where there wasn't any Calvinist influence the Lutheran Church retained Catholic elements that were lost in Germany.
@zuarbrincar769 Catholic elements such as the traditional mass, vestments, incense, ornate religious imagery and statues, a hierarchy of bishops, priests and deacons, religious orders of nuns and monks, the veneration of Saints and Angels, all of these Catholic elements were retained in Scandinavian Lutheranism while in German Lutheranism they were either watered down or abandoned entirely.
@zuarbrincar769 no, Luther didn't want to lose any Catholic practices because he saw the Evangelical Church as the continuation of the Catholic Church. The reforms that Luther argued for were theological and not radical he argued to abandon some of the false teachings of the Roman church like salvation by works, purgatory and indulgences, allow clerical marriage, and place more emphasis on scripture. Luther regarded himself and all Evangelicals as Catholics. Luther kept the Latin Mass and prayed to Mary like all Catholics at the time.
What i can say about my town, Eau Claire, Wisconsin is a common pattern. The town is pretty Christian overall, mix between Lutherans and Catholics. With some baptists here and there. However only the college campus is much more liberal LBTQ affirming than the rest of Eau Claire. It’s a different feeling when u walk out of campus to go to church and how active the community is to their faith.
@Monsieur Z where’s your “Is Catholic America inevitable”? As an American CATHOLIC and a Midwesterner from Iowa I can definitely say that Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, Indiana, Michigan and Ohio as well as Pennsylvania are more Catholic than one may think!
Definitely, I went to a Catholic church for a wedding just this weekend in Ohio. And It was more like a cultural experience for me since I have never been in a Catholic Church since I was little. It was cool. Not my cup of tea, but I can definitely see why it appeals to people.
Depends on the part of the state. I remember when I was in highschool and found out one of the people in my class was catholic. It was like if someone had claimed to be Azerbaijani or from East Timor.
Speaking as someone Baptised Lutheran and live in the Midwest it's definitely a much more loose and open kind group. No one really tries to force anything upon you, you just worship and believe what you want.
Lcms member from florida here. A lot of my congregation are northerners who come live down here for the winter time or local christians who just perfer the smaller congregation and liturgical worship style
Oh Jesus... bro. Unrecognizable. All most all of those a key pivot moments for this nation. Get rid of one... its likely the others after wouldnt of ever even been considered.
I reside in the Upper Midwest. This is NOT actually a thing. Migrant Catholics are swarming the rural areas, working in agribusiness, while Lutherans are ageing out and dying.
Overall I enjoyed this video. Lots of interesting information. Making the picture shake, like an old school film projector, however, was very distracting and almost gave me a headache.
Originally from the east coast but moved about 10 years ago to North Dakota for my wife and have been living and traveling within the Midwest/heartland region of the US since then. Lutheran’s are numerous in the area and while many communities trace lineage back to northern and Eastern European Lutheran groups, they really don’t hold a lot of power in the area. Catholics are far more likely to hold positions of power and much of the wealth is concentrated in catholic families. I hardly ever see Lutherans commit to any community projects besides within their own church family, but catholic groups fund and hold many community events and are overall more active in local affairs. Also While Lutheran’s might have their own schools Catholic schools are far bigger and generally accept wider pool of candidates. While I doubt any potential breakaway or more autonomous states in the USA will be lead with a primary religious focus. A Lutheran controlled movement/coalition is just highly unlikely. I still see power and influence being in the hands of Catholics who are far more successful and organized. (Note not trying to attack one side or the other, just pointing out my observation, I have no ill will towards any religion as long as they let others live how they please.)
As someone who has attended Lutheran churches of several different denominations, I reject your characterization of the Missouri synod's opinion on Catholicism. They do indeed believe that the Papacy is a 'false rock' to build Christianity off of, but at least in my experience they tend to get along with Catholics and believe a genuine Catholic will go to heaven, even if they're wrong about some things.
I do know that Missouri synod churches have generally gotten more moderate over the last half-century, and there still may be some that are vehemently anti-Papacy. Side note: perhaps not-so-coincidentally, the relationship between Catholicism and the greater Christian movement, particularly Lutheranism, was what our Bible discussion group (at a Missouri synod church) was talking about today!
@@gabrielf2432 Luther did not want to create new denominations, he wanted to reform the Catholic church to go back to it's biblical roots and follow the Bible more. It was Leo X who excommunicated him and broke up the Church.
I'd love to see your opinion on a Catholic America. I could really see it as akin to the Hapsburg regime, considering how much internal division exists within Catholicism. Everyone agrees who's in charge & the general values of society, but each ethnicity also has a considerable degree of self-governance. I still remember Mass in my hometown, a post-industrial city with multiple waves of immigration from first Europe then L. America. Not official policy or anything, but the English Mass has Irish, Italians, & Poles all sitting in different sections then at the Spanish Mass the same was true with Dominicans, Guatemalans, & Ecuadorians.
What's with the distracting visual effects when showing the maps. I want to be able to see things clearly instead of getting flashbacks to my youth and trying to watch pay TV without a subscription.
You see, UA-cam suggested to us creators that we try to disorient our viewers to keep them engaged in the video longer, kind of like a bat using echo location to stun its prey. (Kidding)
Yeah, people underestimate the drive and growth of Islam. I’d say you could expect it to become more of a direct threat to western culture as Christendom wanes, and especially as few strategic measures are taken to keep the Middle East in check. Seeking to weaken Russia will come back to bite the western powers in many more ways than they expect. A Christian and Western revival isn’t out of the question either, but there’s more to be seen.
The whole retro shaky thing you have going with the maps was a no go. Made it difficult to actually figure out what the maps were showing. Annoying overall. Otherwise interesting video.
As a Baptist myself, I would’ve quite much preferred a Baptist America (even though I’ve temporary “converted” to a Lutheran until I move back to central Georgia going to Hawkinsville - which I still very much appreciate) - but we’ll take anything to get rid of all this anti-God nonsense!! ⛪️
I grew up in a Missouri synod Lutheran church and never once was the Pope referred to as the Anti-christ. As a matter of fact, Catholics were allowed to receive communion.
This is certainly a very cohesive region, but I don't think Lutheranism would ever be what the nation would coalesce around. As opposed to the Lutheran state churches in Europe, separation of church and state is valued in the American Lutheran Church (mainly because of how interference of secular authorities in the European churches has hollowed out their legitimacy and led to their decline). Lutherans would also only be a plurality in this region with other sizable groups being Catholics and the large Slavic population on the Canadian side of the region. The ELCA and LCMS are in opposition on many issues and are more likely to lead opposing factions within the region rather than form a united front.
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Nice flag. 😎👍
Thanks!
@@MonsieurDean No problem. 👍 Peace. ✌🏻
9:00 That's an interesting take on the Norwegian flag.
Can ya do what if Spain joined the Axis.
I was born in Minnesota, the Lutheran capital of America. However, I was born a Catholic; and didn’t convert to Lutheranism until a while back. However, I am now more proud than ever to be from the heart of Lutheran America!
As a southerner that lived in the upper Midwest for a time, I didn't feel that Lutheranism held anywhere near as much cultural and political power there as Baptists do in the south. I knew far more atheists than Lutherans or even other Christians. I was truly shocked by how much of the people around me up there were aggressively atheist and even anti-Christian. I'm not saying this as a sob story or anything, but just as an observation. I would be surprised if that region united around any religious belief.
Regardless of whether or not the faith maintains a strong hold in that region, what remains is the culture that faith helped build. Lutheran America is a fitting term given the unity Lutheranism was able to provide to a population of German and Scandinavian immigrants, but that unifying identity has largely solidified, though not nearly as much as it has for the Baptist South.
I'd add that cities tend to be less religious than rural communities as well. Were you in the city or in the country?
@@coltonross5414 I was in town but not a city, so I’d imagine it would go either way if I went to Green Bay or Madison or further into the country
As an upper Midwesterner who has lived in the South (well, Missouri) for a time, I largely agree, though in rural areas like where I'm from there aren't so many atheists.
As an lutheran in upper Illinois you have no idea how true this rings
Low-key thought he was gonna say, "but hey, don't let that stop you from making Lutheran America now" 😂
Inshaluther, it shall be done
I'm a Lutheran (Lutheran church Missouri synod specifically), and my thoughts are that that it is unlikely for a Lutheran state to emerge in America. That is unless the LCMS and ELCA churches combine, which I highly doubt will happen, as in the LCMS churches we are taught that ELCA members are really not even Lutheran, and I'm willing to bet it's the same in ELCA churches. Though one thing I can say is that ELCA churches are loosing members at a much higher rate than LCMS churches, so if the Lutheran america did happen, it would be likely for it to have a majority LCMS population, with the ELCA either assimilating into the LCMS, or becoming a Democratic vs Republican style rivalry that we have in the USA today.
I agree
I’m LCMS from the dakotas and regional culture seems to be based more in the local group rather than faith. I can’t see the LCMS and the ELCA ever entering fellowship because of the respective teachings on closed communion or lack thereof.
If a Midwest splinter state were to form I would wager that it would be based more on geography rather than Lutheran fellowship.
@Three Emperors If it happens, then it will probably be in a way where it's still part of the USA, but the USA becomes more like the UK. Where it has nations inside it, but you can travel between nations at will (or at least I think that's how the UK works). In which case the baptist nation, the Mormon nation, and the Lutheran nations would all be their own nations inside the country. I don't see a split up coming between the USA for a long time, unless everyone just decided they wanted out all at once.
The ELCA teaches more in line with mainline Christians now. Any church that teaches critical theory to interpret the Bible or affirms homosexuality is a dead end to most LCMS, and nearly all WELS. Use all the isms or obias you want but know that devout people won’t change their views to make you feel more comfortable. I’m ELS (sister to WELS) and there is a general mood that legality is acceptable (sometimes even desired) if the state leaves us alone.
I'm also LCMS (from Missouri in fact) and yeah, I don't think Lutherans would split from the US. I would say my primary argument for this is that as I was taught in a LCMS private school, Separation of Church and State both was and is good. Render unto caesar and all that.
I also think the level of 'I just want to Grill' is quite high.
@@jakman2179 Do you think it has to do with the fact that Germany was religiously divided while being (nominally) politically united? Scandinavia was homogeneous but the welfare system was separate from the church.
Mr. Z's next video is Catholic America inevitable? As a somewhat practicing Catholic that would be a great video just saying.
I agree. Where would you think it would be regionally? I’d imagine it expanding also to Mexico and Canada
@@timetogitgud2310 Good question, and I have an answer.
@@timetogitgud2310 Probably around Southern Texas the California where a large Catholic Hispanic population resides expanding far north as Quebec. I'd add South Florida in there too since many Cuban exiles live there .
Due to increased immigration from catholic states such as Mexico and the decline of the WASP demographic in the coming decades, I see a catholic majority (or at least regional majority) as a big possibility
@@thorpeaaron1110 I’d also imagine the west coast of the USA and maybe Canada? The reason for why I say it is because of not only Hispanic migrants, but maybe Filipino migrants too? Also the historic Spanish presence and Spanish missions
I know as a Lutheran(LCMS I think) the church generally seems encourages the separation of church and state. The catechism I got actively teaches that God gave rulers the duty of looking out for the populace`a physical needs, and the clergy the duty to care for their spiritual needs
@Bosnia sucks Traditional churches of any denomination generally have, but then there's revivalist movements in all denominations including Lutheran going to the other direction.
As a Lutheran from northern Europe, I am praying for those in USA.
Are you Norwegian?
There was a small but significant group of Norwegian Lutherans that settled in the Gulf Coast, like New Orleans and Pensacola. Basically, those Nords that worked on boats, fished, sailed, or anything to do with water settled on the Gulf Coast with warmer waters.
I’m Lutheran (ELCA) though my mother was raised LCMS Lutheran and my dad was raised Catholic. One thing I’ve learned recently is that the LCMS wasn’t always as conservative as it is today. It used to have a sizable moderate wing but they were pushed out in the midst of Seminex, and a small portion of the LCMS denomination splitted and joined the ALC and LCA to form the ELCA
As a catholic, I support this. The Lutheran church has maintained faith in God. It’s time to convert the atheists to Lutheranism.
I can’t wait to see a completed map of all these religious factions!
As a Norwegian Lutheran from California I appreciate that you covered Lutheran America.
Hehey, a fellow Scandinavian Lutheran, although i still live in Europe, but yk, nice to see a guy of similar heritage😅
@@mikkelbjerring2914 yeah
As a Lutheran in West Virginia This is Fascinating 🤓.
same, but here in MN :)
Even though it's been years since I have gone :)
I read "Lithuanian america"
That is also a video suggestion I want to hear about Lithuanian america
Edit: so it appears this comment has been hearted.
That means that we could be getting a Lithuanian america video
I read that as Lithuanian America and was super confused.
Lithuania ditched Poland and went to the US to form the Lithuanian-American Commonwealth 🤣
Mormon America, Baptist America, Lutheran America - dang, I now want to see all these Americas on a single map. That would probably be best for when you've finished up this little mini-series of yours. What other Americas do you have in mind? Catholic America? Islamic America?
Catholic America also has some potential in the Midwest, with significant agrarian Catholic communities springing up in Kansas, the Dakotas, Wyoming, and I'm even planning on setting one up in Minnesota.
Baptists and Methodists generally have ancestry from the British isles.
Lutherans with Germany, and Scandinavia.
So you can generally guess an American's ethnic ancestry by their religion.
I mean, it’s not a bad guess because I see where it’s coming from but one must always differentiate from stereotypes.
Not necessarily
I'm Lutheran myself. And yes I was born here in MN :)
@@sw3783 He did say "generally". All the above replies make it seem like he didn't. What he said is true, you can GENERALLY GUESS ethnic ancestry by religion. GENERALLY.
As a Canadian who lives in Manitoba this is the first time I’ve even heard of Lutheranism. Though my ancestry at least European side can be tracked back to Scandinavia so it is kind of interesting to learn of the history of that
Let’s go boys. LCMS here!
0:20 - Very subtle critique of Whatifalthist's 9 Nations of America.
I was wondering if anyone else noticed this till I found your comment
Should do a video on the future of Orthodoxy. There’s a good number of zoomers in the West who convert to it, while simultaneously there’s massive depopulation in Eastern Europe where Orthodox Christianity is concentrated
Hi Mr. Z,
Great video overall, but, as a Lutheran, I do have a few critiques to a comment earlier in the video. Namely, the points about Luther's theology. While Luther did believe in the priesthood of all believers, he also strongly supported a divinely instituted Pastoral office.
The idea that early Lutherans wanted a more decentralized church is historically false, and is more a political reality. In Scandinavia, Lutheranism remained and still remains centralized. In Germany, the desire was for their to be bishops, but because of political situations, Superintendents were established to fill the same role. Philip Melancthon, the man who wrote several of the Lutheran Confessions, actually said the Lutherans would except the Pope as head of the Church, if he admitted it was by human right, and that he was equal to other clergy.
Finally, your point that Luther advocated for a more personal interpretation of Scripture is partly true. He did believe that each Christian should read the Word of God themselves, and be able to understand. However, he did not favor novelty. That's why he affirmed the creeds, affirmed the confessions, and used the Fathers and other Christians so liberally. He believed that orthodoxy was important, not novelty. So your kinda true, but not really.
I hope this serves as an honest critique of some of the theological points you mentioned. Again, I think the rest of the video was well done, these just needed clarification.
Beat wishes.
@Three Emperors Yes, and no. There were, and are, state Lutheran Churches. The Scandinavian chruches are like that. However, the royal influence within them varied greatly. The one that was most like the English was the Norwegian. The Danish monarchs did, and still do, govern the Church, but stay out of theological matters. Sweeden, and the Baltics, were almost entirely run by the Bishops. In the German states, it varied. Like In Prussia, the King tried to force unionism, which led a lot of German Lutherans coming to America. However, despite this state control, it was never the desire of the earliest Lutherans to be independent from other Lutherans. They wanted to retain the episcopal structure, and manage their regions, as had been the Church's practice for 1500 years. They were okay with diocese and regions, but they never wanted autonomous churches. Remember, the goal wasn't to start a new church, but reform the Roman one. To this effect, it's common for Lutherans to say we didn't leave, we got kicked out.
@@gagegarlinghouse258 I like it when Lutherans address themselves as the true Western Catholic Church. Rome was the one that left, Lutherans stayed true to the Gospel.
@@thorgot911repent
@@joshuasnyder5236 I tried to repent, all I could was confess...lol
Me and all the Trad Lutherans watching this video
Lutheran, Catholic, Orthadox. All christains of the world Unite!
Glad to see some history of Lutheranism on UA-cam! I think a lot of Pennsylvania would also be part of this nation.
OMG! Lutheran America.
Wow, I never unexpected this scenario.
I'm an ELCA minister, and another difference in the LCMS and ELCA in relation to the Roman Catholic church is that during and after the formation of the ELCA there was a movement similar to the Oxford movement in Anglicanism, where we began to embrace even more more High Church ritual and realigning with more with Catholicism as a whole, rather than retaining more the reformed/protestant aspects in our churches that were adopted through immigration to the Americas.
Too bad y’all love abomination
I’m a proud Missouri senate Lutheran!!!
As a huge fan, I’m still waiting for the new chapter of the Scar Nicholas. I want to see how Mr.H went to Siberia and crushed the Bolsheviks and Japanese and what happens to him after he meets the Tsar. I believe that Mr.H befriend with Baton Ungeren and help the Korean independence troops to wipe out the Japanese.
And for the alternate history, I’d like to see the What if Dollfuss survives from assassination and then allied with Italy to avoid Anschluss and join the allies in the WW2.
And I’d like to see the scenario that what if the Sino-Soviet conflict in 1969 caused the WW3, What if Britain annexed the US after the war of 1812, What if the USA used nukes during the Korean War, What if Korea and Japan becomes a colony of France and the US by each, what if the Mongolian Army conquered Japan and India, and what if Soviet Red Army marches to Manchuria during the attles of Khalkhin Gol.
Lol
That w. A. Sa one time joke
0:16 Not so subtle critique of Whatifalthist's video I see.
Lutheran America should be a thing. Let's get the synodical conference back together boys.
I didn't expect this! Now I'm hoping you have a whole series in mind already! Though one thing is for certain: the whole "join or die" mentality is underrated here because trying to draw lines of division along ANY boundary in the US will doom everyone on both sides as a Balkanized society.
I was gonna suggest "Is Catholic America inevitable?" but I fear the discussion is gonna be too blackpilled, since the clergy in the American Church is VERY conservative, and any Catholic who sticks with the faith into their mid-20s is also going to be VERY conservative, they are overshadowed by posers. This is why California and New England are so left-wing but still called Catholic. They identify as such but don't do anything else except occasionally go to Mass. Those who stay true are often on the downlow and have to learn to contend with bad actors.
My perspectives is that without a universal authority stepping in and firmly declaring "NO, THAT IS HERESY!" to these posers, we're ultimately a headless chicken. I implore Pope Francis and his immediate successor to remember what their role is. I went to a diocesan listening session where we give feedback as a group, and we were all practically begging the clergy to be leaders outside Sunday Mass
@steven trollface A Blackpill, why? Aside from the change in demographics.
@steven trollface Oh my bad. Sorry.
I see many people especially conservatives moving to Orthodoxy due to the weakness of the Catholic and Protestant Clergy. So I wonder if one day we will have a significant population of Orthodoxians.
The Catholic Clergy in America can use the Hispanic immigrants to build base
Your statement that American Lutherans desire a religion that doesn't openly delve into social politics is being reflected throughout a lot of the ELCA Synod. Many churches are choosing to join smaller Synods within their states or, with more conservative elements, joining the Missouri Synod. With the ELCA being still fairly new, only officially being coined as a synod in the 80's, its recent trend towards commenting on or holding official stances on social issues like homosexuality, immigration, and race relations is inadvertantly forcing member churches to take their own stances or step out altogether, and I think it will greatly impact the future of the church as a whole in the future. Great video!
It should be noted that ELCA has a large proportion of 49er Germans who do not share the same views as more conservative LCMS/WELS Germans who came after famine in Europe.
Aside from the cultural differences between the major Lutheran bodies, we exclude ourselves from the other on some pretty deep theology that is more incompatible with each other than most. Mainly on the subject of closed communion and the meaning of the service of the sacrament as a whole. The LCMS teaches strict doctrine on what communion is and what it does, we also teach that it can be taken to your and others’ harm, so we are careful with how it is handled. The ELCA (usually) teaches open communion for all who come, which is a direct contradiction to what the LCMS confesses.
From the perspective of holy communion being the single most important part of worship on Sundays, there would be little chance of reconciliation between the two.
For the record, nobody is going to hell over any of these disagreements, but both synods are trying their best to uphold scripture to its full intent. I view the ELCA as misguided as they probably view me.
As someone from Wisconsin with Norwegian ancestry, The Michigan panhandle should and dose belong to Wisconsin.
Wel, the state arm orange army is mobilizing soon. Maybe an invasion is imminent?
@@stump1897 That would be entertaining.
That would cause a 3rd civil war.
Piss off. 🤣
@@niicopanda You piss off 😂
**Catholic America dislikes this video**
That was fun! LCMS and WELS Lutherans really don't feel that much kinship with ELCA Lutherans these days. ELCA now permits female and homosexual pastors, something that horrifies Confessional Lutherans a lot. Interesting video though.
As a practicing ELCA Lutheran, I found the video interesting.
I am a Minnesotan Catholic who goes to a Missouri Synod Lutheran school and there are actually quite a few interesting things I’ve noticed, the Lutherans have a lot less knowledge of what happened before the reformation and stuff that they took out of the Bible. I remember I was telling everyone about purgatory and why we “pray to saints” (which is more of us asking for them to pray for us) but it’s interesting to see all their differences and have them be like wait, Catholics do that? The Lutherans and the Catholics believe in a lot of similar stuff culturally too, they are both pro-life, conservative, don’t believe in women church leaders, and are anti gay marriage. I even saw a flier on their church board to support a Catholic charity. There are also a lot more Catholics in the Midwest then you would think and most of them are pretty conservative. There are a lot more things I could talk about and if anyone has any questions I would love to respond.
Surprised you didn't mention WELS (Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod) as it is even more conservative than LCMS. Confessional Lutheranism is much stronger in the US. than it is here in Norway, unfortunately. Probably because our state Church, that has traditionally had a monopoly on religion in this country, became so liberal after WWII
@@GamerKing-fi3sf Yes, but they're generally new and starting out.
Aren’t there only 2-5 individual churches in fellowship with the WELS in Norway?
What’s interesting about Norwegian Lutherans is that those who come from a more “orthodox” Lutheran background (with ties to the National church) joined synods which eventually joined the ELCA and vote Democratic. On the other hand, Norwegians from the pietistic tradition of Hauge joined more Congregationalist less-orthodox, yet more conservative synods like the LB, AFLC, and (the not even Lutheran) E-Free churches and vote Republican. Conservative orthodox Lutherans tend to be German (WELS and LCMS) with the notable exception of the ELS (essentially the Norwegian WELS)
Vennligste hilsener fra Minnesota
@@no8592 Not WELS. They've been around since the 1850s.
@@johnhouchins3156 The comment that I responded to did not talk about WELS and is deleted
The ELCA may still be large but its turn to the left has lost it a lot of congregations, There are a growing number of independent Lutheran Churches which left the ELCA starting with the ELCA move to Ordain Gay ministers, and continuing with the ELCA's move to the left to try and move with the perceived culture. I remember going to an ELCA church back home a while ago and being shocked at how much it had changed, I actually attend Missouri Synod Church for service where I live now, and it is almost exactly like the ELCA church I had grown up in, I think the ELCA is going to have to hit the breaks hard, there are even some projections that the ELCA will basically cease to exist by 2040, though I am not sure how accurate those projections are, but simply because many ELCA congrigations are going Independent or switching to WELS or MLS, I think the ELCA will loose a lot of its power, it will eventually become nothing more than the synod for the far flung left wing churches else where in America.
I live in Wisconsin and (I am not lying when I say this) I live by 20 Lutheran schools and double that for church's.
Don't flicker the images as much...hurts the eyes.
Lets eventually make him draw this once he’s done with that series
A video on Anglo-Saxon Methodist & Anglican/episcopal America is needed as well!
Why add the VHS distortion effect?
Greetings from North Dakota 😀
Can’t wait to see the answer.
I am a of Dane ancestry from North Iowa, I hardly ever head south from here as it’s very sparsely populated from the north to the central Iowa. I didn’t realize that southern Iowa was not a a Lutheran as the Northern half as I only ever see Lutheran churches in my area. This was interesting to learn about
Lutheranism was originally identical to Catholicism minus the Pope, it wasn't until the Calvinists infiltrated the German church that Lutheranism became more Protestant, however in Scandinavia where there wasn't any Calvinist influence the Lutheran Church retained Catholic elements that were lost in Germany.
Like what?
@zuarbrincar769 Catholic elements such as the traditional mass, vestments, incense, ornate religious imagery and statues, a hierarchy of bishops, priests and deacons, religious orders of nuns and monks, the veneration of Saints and Angels, all of these Catholic elements were retained in Scandinavian Lutheranism while in German Lutheranism they were either watered down or abandoned entirely.
@@Karltheknight I thought Luther already assumed the abandonment of these practices
@zuarbrincar769 no, Luther didn't want to lose any Catholic practices because he saw the Evangelical Church as the continuation of the Catholic Church. The reforms that Luther argued for were theological and not radical he argued to abandon some of the false teachings of the Roman church like salvation by works, purgatory and indulgences, allow clerical marriage, and place more emphasis on scripture. Luther regarded himself and all Evangelicals as Catholics. Luther kept the Latin Mass and prayed to Mary like all Catholics at the time.
What i can say about my town, Eau Claire, Wisconsin is a common pattern. The town is pretty Christian overall, mix between Lutherans and Catholics. With some baptists here and there. However only the college campus is much more liberal LBTQ affirming than the rest of Eau Claire. It’s a different feeling when u walk out of campus to go to church and how active the community is to their faith.
Very awesome, would like some things on the Methodists, or maybe whatever is going on in New England.
@Monsieur Z where’s your “Is Catholic America inevitable”? As an American CATHOLIC and a Midwesterner from Iowa I can definitely say that Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, Indiana, Michigan and Ohio as well as Pennsylvania are more Catholic than one may think!
Definitely, I went to a Catholic church for a wedding just this weekend in Ohio. And It was more like a cultural experience for me since I have never been in a Catholic Church since I was little. It was cool. Not my cup of tea, but I can definitely see why it appeals to people.
Depends on the part of the state. I remember when I was in highschool and found out one of the people in my class was catholic. It was like if someone had claimed to be Azerbaijani or from East Timor.
Is Confucian America inevitable?
[Insert CCP wearing a Confucian swimsuit joke here]
Speaking as someone Baptised Lutheran and live in the Midwest it's definitely a much more loose and open kind group. No one really tries to force anything upon you, you just worship and believe what you want.
One of Martin Luther's most popular books was "Jews and their Lies".
Don't like the guy, but in the case of the jews he's pretty based😂🤣
Yeah Lutheranism is canceled. The book the Nazis used to justify the Holocaust
@@rioscordoba606 Luther actually didn’t want schism with the Catholic Church he just wanted reform, however things got too out of control
There is no America without the separation of church and state. Full stop.
What if the German and Italian fleets worked together in ww2? Either to control the Mediterranean or the channel.
Lutheran myself. :)
Coming from here in MN :)
& and not wrong about labor rights, etc.
That explains all the Lutheran churches in my state of North Dakota.
Lcms member from florida here. A lot of my congregation are northerners who come live down here for the winter time or local christians who just perfer the smaller congregation and liturgical worship style
Ah yes the annual snow bird migration. I grew up in Florida and was raised in a LCMS church. We had a few snow birds attend our church as well.
Do a video on is Catholic America inevitable
Where I buy the flag at
LCMS gang.
but I'm in Dixie
Hey mister z I am a fan of your work and I was wondering if you could do a video about the 1915 or 1916 empire of china
Please we need more Lutherans in Minnesota and the Dakotas!
Was this vid meant for me lmfao nice vid Mr. Z
What if Lincoln,FDR, JFK, LBJ,and Obama didn't become president. How the history would be? Could u please make a video about it
Oh Jesus... bro. Unrecognizable. All most all of those a key pivot moments for this nation. Get rid of one... its likely the others after wouldnt of ever even been considered.
What if George Washington didn't exist
I reside in the Upper Midwest. This is NOT actually a thing. Migrant Catholics are swarming the rural areas, working in agribusiness, while Lutherans are ageing out and dying.
The very small couple that end up assimilating will convert to the local denomination, but most won't.
Overall I enjoyed this video. Lots of interesting information. Making the picture shake, like an old school film projector, however, was very distracting and almost gave me a headache.
Originally from the east coast but moved about 10 years ago to North Dakota for my wife and have been living and traveling within the Midwest/heartland region of the US since then. Lutheran’s are numerous in the area and while many communities trace lineage back to northern and Eastern European Lutheran groups, they really don’t hold a lot of power in the area. Catholics are far more likely to hold positions of power and much of the wealth is concentrated in catholic families. I hardly ever see Lutherans commit to any community projects besides within their own church family, but catholic groups fund and hold many community events and are overall more active in local affairs. Also While Lutheran’s might have their own schools Catholic schools are far bigger and generally accept wider pool of candidates. While I doubt any potential breakaway or more autonomous states in the USA will be lead with a primary religious focus. A Lutheran controlled movement/coalition is just highly unlikely. I still see power and influence being in the hands of Catholics who are far more successful and organized. (Note not trying to attack one side or the other, just pointing out my observation, I have no ill will towards any religion as long as they let others live how they please.)
Hey Mr. Z could you make an alternate history video: What if Protestant Reformation didn’t happen or failed
As someone who has attended Lutheran churches of several different denominations, I reject your characterization of the Missouri synod's opinion on Catholicism. They do indeed believe that the Papacy is a 'false rock' to build Christianity off of, but at least in my experience they tend to get along with Catholics and believe a genuine Catholic will go to heaven, even if they're wrong about some things.
I do know that Missouri synod churches have generally gotten more moderate over the last half-century, and there still may be some that are vehemently anti-Papacy.
Side note: perhaps not-so-coincidentally, the relationship between Catholicism and the greater Christian movement, particularly Lutheranism, was what our Bible discussion group (at a Missouri synod church) was talking about today!
@@gabrielf2432 Luther did not want to create new denominations, he wanted to reform the Catholic church to go back to it's biblical roots and follow the Bible more. It was Leo X who excommunicated him and broke up the Church.
Cool video!
Great video
Bro it’s been out for a minute literally
@@generalpolock6366 Bro, a minute is all it takes.
@@generalpolock6366 lmao
Oh my god do Mormons next!!!
ua-cam.com/video/sE7KzwnSuc8/v-deo.html
@@MonsieurDean a scholar and a gentleman, and I thank you
I'd love to see your opinion on a Catholic America. I could really see it as akin to the Hapsburg regime, considering how much internal division exists within Catholicism. Everyone agrees who's in charge & the general values of society, but each ethnicity also has a considerable degree of self-governance.
I still remember Mass in my hometown, a post-industrial city with multiple waves of immigration from first Europe then L. America. Not official policy or anything, but the English Mass has Irish, Italians, & Poles all sitting in different sections then at the Spanish Mass the same was true with Dominicans, Guatemalans, & Ecuadorians.
What's with the distracting visual effects when showing the maps. I want to be able to see things clearly instead of getting flashbacks to my youth and trying to watch pay TV without a subscription.
You see, UA-cam suggested to us creators that we try to disorient our viewers to keep them engaged in the video longer, kind of like a bat using echo location to stun its prey.
(Kidding)
Mr. Z what are your thoughts on a Muslim America or even Islam in Europe? As it will likely be the largest religion in the coming century.
Yeah, people underestimate the drive and growth of Islam. I’d say you could expect it to become more of a direct threat to western culture as Christendom wanes, and especially as few strategic measures are taken to keep the Middle East in check. Seeking to weaken Russia will come back to bite the western powers in many more ways than they expect. A Christian and Western revival isn’t out of the question either, but there’s more to be seen.
Lutheran Church of the Missouri Synod is based
I'm sorry, but what is with that shakey animation overlay throughout this entire video? Makes it really hard to watch.
Is Catholic America next?
*CORRECT*
@@MonsieurDean The entire universe already belongs to Christ & the Catholic Church.
@@MonsieurDean Is Televangelist America Inevitable?
Thank you..
This pretty much sums down to too factionalized to be a true united front to found anything around, outside the worst case scenarios.
The bash at 0:17 was legitimately unexpected.
The tensions are increasing...
I didn't know it was Rudy's map when I put it in there.
@@MonsieurDean 💀
@@MonsieurDean No going back now. A honest take is a honest take.
Lutheran Rust Belt vs Baptist-Pentecostal Bible Belt, who wins?
Lutherans got lots of food, but any attempt to invade Appallachiastan would be suicide.
What song is this
Do Anglican America next.
The whole retro shaky thing you have going with the maps was a no go. Made it difficult to actually figure out what the maps were showing. Annoying overall. Otherwise interesting video.
4:06 Danes in Utah are Mormons but some of them remaining Lutherans or converts to other Protestants and Catholics
I'm guessing "Is a Calvinist America Inevitable?" comes between the Mormons and the Muslims in this series.
The Mormon America video is already out. The Calvinists are largely a minor factor.
Well. Im early. This is a very niche but interesting topic tho
New Sweden?? I’m a northern DE girl and they don’t teach you shit about any of this in school.
Can you make a map of all the nations when you are finished?
I'm calling that the Avengers project.
Matthew Harrison for president of Lutheran America!
As a Baptist myself, I would’ve quite much preferred a Baptist America (even though I’ve temporary “converted” to a Lutheran until I move back to central Georgia going to Hawkinsville - which I still very much appreciate) - but we’ll take anything to get rid of all this anti-God nonsense!! ⛪️
I grew up in a Missouri synod Lutheran church and never once was the Pope referred to as the Anti-christ. As a matter of fact, Catholics were allowed to receive communion.
This is certainly a very cohesive region, but I don't think Lutheranism would ever be what the nation would coalesce around. As opposed to the Lutheran state churches in Europe, separation of church and state is valued in the American Lutheran Church (mainly because of how interference of secular authorities in the European churches has hollowed out their legitimacy and led to their decline). Lutherans would also only be a plurality in this region with other sizable groups being Catholics and the large Slavic population on the Canadian side of the region. The ELCA and LCMS are in opposition on many issues and are more likely to lead opposing factions within the region rather than form a united front.
Your videos rule
Thanks, pal!