Robb was born with power meant succeed, Jon was a bastard who started from the bottom and worked his way up to be king, he is a true warrior, a leader, the king in the north
I love how Grey Wind shows the anger that Robb cannot. Robb is too good a son and too stoic a leader to show it, but his rage at Catelyn, his frustration with her, and his own grief over Bran and Rickon are reflected in Grey Wind. One of the things the show really missed out on was exploring how all of the Stark children, save only Sansa, are wargs. The power of the Old Gods, the ancient and mysterious history of House Stark, and the magic of the North that Catelyn never understood. Robb and Jon are more alike than Robb and Catelyn could ever be.
Indeed, Rob inherited Cat's and the Tully's physical appearance but besides that him and Jon were true Ned Stark child and real norsemen to the core, and all that came with that was something that Cat never truly understood, even after 20 years up in the north.
When Ned and the other Stark children look at Jon, they see Orys Baratheon, Brandon Snow, the Velaryon bastards of the Dance, BloodRaven and the Sand Snakes, when Catelyn looks at Jon, she sees Ramsay Snow and Daemon Blackfyre!
I had this impression that Sansa was a warg too, there was a chapter in AFFC or ADWD where she seemed dreaming about the bard imprisoned in the Eyrie. In the dream, she was looking at him while singing sad songs in his cell, but it felt 'real' for her
@@jamesmario3162 Martin himself comfirmed that all the Stark children are wargs, but since Sansa is more southerner than northerner, she probably doesn't know or care about this skinchanging stuff, but I think she will probably starts to develops her warging powers and open her 3rd eye slowly in the next 2 books!
@@modernchaos8999interesting what do you think Jon plot line in the books will be and what part do u think the show merged young griff plot line with Jon
I suspect he means the fan theory that fake aegon will get to westerns before Dany, become beloved, and in her frustration at this false dragon Dany will burn down kings landing. The show halfway sort of tries to make Jon the beloved westerosi Dany is jealous of... but it's dumb and bad and forced
The books > series , in every way! But Jon becoming king due to his actions and the love/respect people got for him, is more powerful than him becoming king because of a piece of paper. The story is better in the books, but the single scene Where they crown Jon, even though he has No right is probably the most powerful scene in the series.
@@maurosw3891 This scene only had to have been in the show. and then the result of it could have been that Robb never managed to legitimise Jon before his death. That way not only is the scene of Jon becoming king in the north as powerful as it was, it leaves the viewer much happier knowing this is exactly what Robb would have wanted. (Sansa, true born daughter of Ned Stark was there while a bastard was crowned king which is highly contentious. Sansa or Arya should be the ones to be crowned) All they had to do was make it clear that this is what Robb wanted to to do but didnt have enough time. perhaps place it right before his death.
@@antonioscafuri756 Yeah, robb his brother. But getting love and respect from everyone, even tho they should hate you because they don’t value bastards, is a much more compelling character arch imo.
She couldn't see through her own hate. House Stark was on the edge of being extinguished. If he died (King Rob) there would be no Starks left to inherit Winterfell. After 8,000 years ahe would see it fall, verse allow Jon the name. Such a hateful woman.
The 8000 years (or 10,000?) thing is the most ridiculous aspect of the ASOIAF. Martin's claim is that his writing is somewhat more realistic than conventional high-fantasy i.e. Tolkien. A whole 8000 year-old background for a noble house is beyond nonsense. The empires and nations rise and collapse in such a long time span. How can a family survive?
@@envinyatar5712 there's a Chinese family(Tang) that can trace its lineage to at least 1700 BC. That's about 3800 years of unbroken family tree. Or the Imperial family of Japan, that has near mythical lineage. So not completely out of the realm of possibilities. Especially for a ruling family of the North, that had no real outside influences in the story until about 300 years ago. And it's fantasy.
@@RealitiesCookiejar To be fair I do believe the "8000 years" thing is probably a in world exaggeration considering their isn't much historical records of the legends of old
Notice how Robb (and by extension all the Stark children) never refer to Jon Snow as their “bastard brother” Just “Brother” To them, blood was enough to make Jon one of them! And that’s the reason I’ll always root for the Starks. Family.
@@vikasithachiranjaya3005 maybe in the books. In the show she referred to him as brother. Like when she talked to Breean about Jon and she said “He’s my brother he’ll keep me safe.”
If I remember correctly Robb is the one that trained Jon in how to use a sword, and after Jon finished learning the basics he beat Robb in every duel they had ever since.
I really do love this moment from A Storm of Swords. It shows Robb's faith in Jon, his trust in him. And that trust is rewarded when, after Robb is gone and Jon is offered legitimacy and lordship over Winterfell by Stannis, he refuses in order to honor Sansa's claim and the Old Gods Melissandre would see burned to ash.
That is extremely funny since Robb did not name John as his hair. He only threatened Catelyn that he will do it. Naming Jon would be stupid as he has nothing common with riverlands.
@@robertsmith8734 Except that he did name Jon as heir. Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover escaped the Red Wedding when they were sent off with the letter legitimizing Jon and naming him heir. They must be with Howland Reed, or somehow must've gotten past Moat Cailin. Who knows.
@King Brandon IX Stark It is not. And no Robb Stark did not legitimize Jon Snow, no lord signed any such paper. He made Catelyn Tully his heir. Read these books please.
The fact Catelyn compares Jon to theon simply for who she thinks he is so angering her dislike for Jon was one of the reasons I never truly liked her no matter how justified she is in her dislike
I love how in the books Jon and Robb loved each other so much. And Catelyn. She was never capable of letting go of her hatred for Jon, when Jon never did anything to deserve it.
What's poignant is Jon's last memory of Robb is the latter standing in the Winterfell courtyard with snow melting in his hair. The two are pained to bid each other farewell and never meet again.
@@ltbraca470 it's understandable. To her Jon is from an affair Ned had. And the culture was that she had to accept that. She had to do her duty. She wasnt allowed to hate ned and be mad at him for the supposed affair for she was just a lady. Sadly she took it out on Jon who had nothing to do with that
“Jon is more Stark than any Nordlings from the Vale who have never set eyes on Winterfell.” Wish we could’ve heard Robb say these things..would’ve had me tearing up a bit.
@@joshstroven8284 totally agree! But this is also the same woman that when Ned came back with Jon she didn't blame him because their marriage was new and they didn't love each other yeah. She literally admitted Ned had no obligation to her then! But you Hate the baby that did nothing???
Me personally I love characters like Catelyn. Very flawed layered and in some ways understandable. I don’t think a good character has to be likable. She pisses me off, then she makes me feel for her. Love it man
I love the dueling sides. This is another great example of the human heart in conflict with itself. Robb loves Jon. he's not only his brother but his best friend and the only person he can truly trust. Cats hatred for Jon runs so deep that she refuses to admit the obvious and goes as far as to suggest a distant relative to be heir to her son's crown.
Imagine if they would have done this scene in the show. The letter ends up in the hands of a loyal bannerman after the Red Wedding and is presented in the council after Jon and Sansa take back Winterfell from the Boltons. This helps solidify their decision to name him king, but more importantly, tells Jon how much his brother loved and trusted him.
Lyanna Mormont could still have done her whole thing because I think in the books Dacey Mormont has the letter and shes heading to Greywater Watch. Ya know the home of the only other dude who was at the Tower of Joy! So Dacey could have gone to beat island and Lyanna could have gotten the letter.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Not completely. There are definitely lords that take issue with the parentage of Jon and his status as a bastard. Being legitimized by Robb would have cemented his legitimacy further. I mean, after all, Roose bothered to legitimize Ramsay...
@@RGInquisitor the issue you're describing is the exactly the point of the scene. That the people chose Jon because he proved himself as a true stark despite being a bastard. Involving the will shifts focus away from Jon's actual character and instead makes it more about robbs personal wants. It also doesn't work thanks to robbs reputation being awful in the north as far as the show is concerned.
This scene becomes even sadder when you have to read about Jon’s blackout after being struck by iron emmet. Robb loved him and wanted him as heir, but he was so afraid of taking away from his siblings that he felt guilty about even thinking about taking Winterfell
Which I think that, if he comes back more villanous and wolfish after resurrection in TWOW and discover about Robb's will due to visions send by him during his time inside Ghost (via BloodRaven and/or Bran), Jon might use Robb's will as justification to take Winterfell by himself and even spread distorted half-truths about his siblings after he learns of their whereabouts (because, being honest, hanging with the same man that caused the death of your uncle/adoptive father, joining a group of assassins that uses the faces of dead people as masks, becoming the apprentice of an kinslaying, skinchanging tree-man and living on a island full of cannibals doesn't give you the best of first impressions)!
She would throw away the Norths fate to some random people they don't even know just to satisfy her petty hatred towards a man who's committed no sins against her other than existing. If she one day does find out that Jon is actually the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she'd probably deny it just to justify her blind hatred.
@@PedroLucas-mg5je this is awhile back but if you still around she met Brandon once and likely doesn’t harbor any feelings for him especially since from what I know she married Ned and their relationship was good at the time of her death it would have been around 18 years since she had met Brandon and the only problem Ned and her had was Jon
@@thedemonhater7748, because she’s a paranoid, spiteful woman and a helicopter parent to a fault. Even if she didn’t blame him for Brandon’s death it would be completely plausible for her to consider Jon a threat to her children’s lives either because of Robert’s hatred and the Lannister’s grip on the throne starting a war, or because she would come to an illogical conclusion that Jon would blame the Starks for his upbringing as well as the deaths of his Targaryen family and seek revenge. Cat’s the wicked stepmother of this series; there’s no way for her to accept Jon without changing her character.
I'm still rooting for a rugpull. Catelyn hated Jon in life, but Lady Stoneheart is around people that know Jons ancestry. Imagine how awesome it would be if the vengeful spirit of the woman that despised Jon in life, supports him in death. An evil, brutal spectre that only carries on to right the wrongs of ger lifetime, dealing wrath to everyone that opposes the last of the Starks, including her sister in laws only son. That would be such a cool subversion if everything we expect from a charachter like lady stoneheart. After all, we only experienced her from the viewpoint of her victims. The brotherhood guys themselves are surprisingly chill and normal considering who they work for and what they are doing right now. Maybe Stoneheart is not what she seems to Freys and Lannisters. Vengeful and brutal to those that wronged her family in life, but sad, broken and regretful in moments of quiet. One last mission: Get Aegon his birthright after denying it all of her life.
He, the boy of what 15?, was actually kicking ass as a war time king. Dude was having Tywin shaking in his boots so much so that Tywin had to resort to the Red Wedding.
"Jon Snow swor an oath to the Watch, not I". Jon said as he gathered his things "Then be gone with you then, Stark." The lord commander said, Jon looked at long claw and with a deep breath said, "I have no right takeing it away from the Wall." "you have every right to, it was a gift, Jon." " a gift to a Snow, I am a Stark." "Goodbye, commander." "Goodbye, Stark." Jon turned and walked away Ghost bounding down beside him.
If jon was legitimized, he would become the king in the north and warden of the north.. then he won't be under the nights watch instead the nights watch will be under him ..
@@tanxeelhanif Wrong, the nights watch may be in the north but they take no part in the realms politics, Jon would be king but they wouldn't be beholden to him. But you are right that at this point if Jon were to get Robbs letter and the north supported it then the nights watch could do nothing to stop it other than to execute him before he could leave, but that would be foolish as well as they would have then just murdered the northern king and would almost assuredly get slaughtered by the northern houses. But it all depends on how the books go, since Jon is currently already dead and all.
@@tanxeelhanif that would probably be a good thing for the watch. A king in the north who has seen first hand what the watch is up against. He could have sent more men and supplies to strengthen the watch.
robb and jons friendship, nay brotherhood was amazing. THats because if you think about it, when robb was growing up Jon was his older bro, and as a younger bro myself older brothers are kind of like father figures in a way, betraying them is unthinkable. Jon deserved the throne after him it really maeks sense.
Jon and Robb were the same age, Jon was born at the tower of joy at the end of roberts rebellion, not sure when robb was born but he was born by the time ned came back with baby jon, the age gap between the 2 is probably no more than 50 days
According to what we know Robb is actually slightly older then Jon, though it’s such a meaningless amount of time between the two of them that their effectively the same age.
Those last Catelyn POV chapters were so hard to read/listen to. Because of them walking the path of total destruction. The way GRRM created the set up of the red wedding was both awesome and painful... One could clearly see where this was going!
@@notnero5280 passed away a while ago…. Unfortunately…. Worst part about winds coming out so late is we won’t have his amazing performance. I loved how he did Dolores Edd
@@zacrusk5274 with all the hours of his narration that we have, I'm sure someone could make a deep-fake of his voice for all the different characters. And then someone could voice the new ones.
Out of all the Stark children and dire wolves, robb and grey wind has the strongest bond. I can only imagine how it was told that robb and grey wind are in sync and together in battle.
He was never a ranger, he was and still is a steward, a dead one for now. He was never made a ranger even though he could as lord commander, not that it matters anymore.
Robb always seem so sad. Despite winning constantly he is weakening his own position. He seems prone to melancholy. The same thing Barristan Selmy says of Rhaegar in a Storm of Swords. Rhaegar and Robb would have made excellent kings, but both felt this impending doom that would ruin them. They were right.
In his mind Arya, Bran and Rickon were dead, and Sansa was a prisoner (which she was). He loved his family, and it must've hurt him terribly that he couldn't save them. Plus, he was blaming himself for Bran and Rickon's death.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 I completely agree. Robb making Jon his heir confirms his cynicism to me. He loved Theon, he thought Theon loved them (which he did, but but god damn did Theon fuck everything), and how do you predict your mother commiting high treason? Then be expected to what, execute your own mom? Robb fucked up with Jeyne Westerling but fucking Catelyn screwed him almost as bad if not worse.
I just realized that Catelyn's feeling of being an outsider probably was fueled by her mistrust in ned after he brought home another womans child. How in the godswood she stated she always felt like an outsider is probably because she treated a true stark as an outsider and made him feel as such. Catelyn almost always treated him w passive aggression which led to jon claiming the bastards title and never claiming the stark name when in actuality he had STARK BLOOD. He was more stark than her, not by ned but by his sister. Even the fates in the stories acknowledged his stark blood by gifting him a direwolf just like the rest of the stark children. Only his was in the colour of his fathers house. I like to believe that the direwolves were meant to be found by jon himself since the pups came from a female just like jon did. Whereas the other children came from a male of the house. Also the direwolf was stabbed by a stags horn and jons mother lost her life because of the barratheons rebellion. If i recall correctly (pls correct me if im wrong) all the other pups were outside and suckling their mother but jons pup was still inside the dead mothers womb.
@@PedroLucas-mg5je He wanted john to be safe, but because he has targarian blood he wouldnt risk it. Its much safer to put him on the wall, than to legitimise him. If johns secret was out it could start a new war, or john might be killed even if he doesnt want any power.
The opposite, Ghost had opened his eyes and wondered off from their mother and was a bit away from the other pups. Also, when Bastards are allowed to fly their houses sigil, they have to invert the colours. The Stark sigil is a grey wolf on a white field, with the colours inverted it becomes a white wolf on a grey field. Which imo makes Ghosts albino colouring more significant
Trying to compare the books to the show is like having a vivid dream, waking up in the middle of the night and writing it down. In the morning you see 'octopus ate bird' and wonder wth that was
@@jacobenke7936 she's more intelligent in the books. she offers rob even more sound council. she's more well educated on the affairs of the realm as well.
I feel like the build up to the Red Wedding is all the more tragic in the book for moments like this. Robb laying out his plan to retake Moat Cailin and legitimise Jon felt like a turning point for the character. He rushed to call the banners in the beginning to rescue his father, being crowned King in the North by his men only after the worst happened. Up until this point he was still a boy reacting to everything around him. Now Robb was finally acting like the King he was supposed to be, planning for the future and giving up his push south to defend the people he was sworn to protect. In the show the Red Wedding played out like the latest bad thing to happen in Robb's run of rotten luck. Here, it was a betrayal that came out of left field after he'd finally learned the lessons his fairly disastrous campaign had taught him. He was just entering his prime, then he gets cut down.
I love the stark children except sansa, they are raised perfectly. Robb embodies the good honorable king and his kindness and love towards Jon shows that ned raised his sons perfectly and honorably. When brothers are murdering each other to steal power, the stark children actually loved and cared for each other showing that they had what other families never had- A true family! Such a beautiful moment
Sansa has the illness called "inferiority syndrome" which makes her also a narcissist, she cannot accept herself as she was born, she always need to compare herself to others so that she could chill a little
To be fair to Robb, it was literally only Catelyn who needed to be reminded of that fact. After Robb intimidated Jon Umber, the north was pretty united in their worship of him.
Isnt it said that Robbs choice in succession was witnessed by Mage Mormont, Edmure, Catelyn,Greatjon, Galbart and patek Mallister so that mean if another book comes out. And Jon is resurrected he has people who witnessed him being made heir. Greatjon and Maege and Patrek are all imprisoned. But I also wished this part was in the show, it would have been cool.
@@coldhands2802 I think Dacey is dead, Lyra and Jory are with Marge. Her 2and daughter Alysane or whatever rules bear island and Lyanna mormont is also on bear island.
@@waxierzero2198 I'm currently on my 2nd reading. Haven't memorized all the names yet lol. I just know there are ppl that seen Robb name Jon his heir and they are in the neck after Howland.
The starks we're such a tragic house, Honorable heros and lords of a long past age, in an era of vipers and dead men, oh the pain of ned stark loved his sister so much he was shamed him and his family, his wife would hate him and that boy never ever ever deserved this Jon never deserved any of this, Rob never deserved any of this, rob and jon's brotherly love was so tragic and killed me and the fact that the entire house was trashed by everyone and everything since the birth of westeros, the symbolism of how the dire wolf goes extinct or is tamed into hounds saddens me, they're bred out or killed off hunted to extinction
I always liked the scene when they are saying bye to each other at Winterfell and Rob calls Jon "Snow" and then Jon calls rob "Stark." Interesting dynamic with Rob respecting Jon even though his mother hated him and considering that Rob was a mamas boy.
"If i die my next battle, my kingdom shal not die with me" is just such an awe striking, incredible line coming from a imaginary yet 14 year old! 14! A king fighting for his kingdom and its people than his own self
Legally, I'd argue that by legitimizing Jon and turning him from Jon Snow to Jon Stark his oaths no longer count. He made those oaths as Jon Snow, not as Jon Stark.
@@luissandro5535 Cat hatred for Jon made Jon take the Black. If not for that either Jon would have been with Robb when he went to war or he would have stayed in Winterfell as Warden of the North until Bran came of age. If Jon was in Winterfell Theon would have never tried to take it with Jon in command, or Robb would have sent Jon with Theon to the Iron Islands and Theon would not have betrayed Robb. Cat also took Tyrion hostage which led to Ned's men being killed. Had she not done that, when things went south in the South, Ned's loyal men would have gotten Sansa and Arya out of Kingslanding Landing. But there wouldn't have been a war in the first place if Cat wouldn't have took Tyrion. Ned would not have had to put him trust in Littlefinger if he had his men with him when exposing the Lannister children and possibly would have had the support of Stannis and Dorn behind him when he did if Syrio would have inquired about Ned sending Arya away so abruptly. Syrio definitely would would have encouraged him to wait for backup before accusing the queen. Cat also let Jamie go. Tywinn would never jeopardize Jamie's life and that was the only thing hold him back in the war. Tywinn would never had trusted the Freys to keep his son safe so the red wedding would never have happened in Jamie was still a hostage. Cat Tully caused it all!
@@ThomLodge nah bro. If Jon didn't take the black, Jon will insist on joining Robb in the war and Robb will certainly want him by his side. So we go to your 2nd scenario. "Robb sends Jon with Theon to the iron islands" By the time Theon came back to the iron islands, there were already ships ready to raid the north. Balon had already decided to attack the north which means he would probably take Jon as his hostage or will be cutting his head off. Theon will then proceed to attempt to prove that he is irornborn and the same things happen. But now Jon's death/capture will be on Robb's conscience. Even if Ned's men stayed, they wouldn't be able to fight the combined might of Lannister men at arms and knights with the gold cloaks. So everything you said is all just wishful thinking. Ned's death was caused by the combined results of several characters' decisions, not only by Cat.
@@luissandro5535 Actually in the books, the reason Robb marries Jayne Westerling is because of Jon. He hated how his mother treated Jon because he was a bastard. Didnt want the same thing happening because of his own actions. So, if catelyn accepted Jon, he never would've married Jeyne, he'd have kept his word to the Freys, hence never would've lost their army nor would've gotten himself killed.
I like how desperate things have gotten by this point for Robb, yet he shows himself more intelligent and long thinking then his mother and many others, not even the lannisters would have thought of what he did. He puts aside emotions and personal hopes, and looks at the facts and what's best for the entire North here. He knows exactly what the lannisters plan for Sansa, she is merely a key to them, and once she turns the lock for them, the lock being the north because of her place in line of sucession, she will die and the lannisters will rule Winterfell and the north, the only remnants of their family being the small stark blood that Sansa's childrens sons and daughters would have. He also knows that his two trueborn brothers are stated to be dead, and the Ironborn are not likely to let stark children live even if they were alive. His youngest sister, though it pains him greatly, is missing, and has been gone so long no one knows where she is, not even Varys, and he knows how dangerous the lands are now, especially for a girl. He is the last true born Stark that is not dead, a captive married to lannisters, or likely to be dead. He also realises that the lannisters will try to kill him, so that the male line will die out and only his sister who will be a lannister wife will be left to inherit. He has no child with Jeyne, so he cannot even make plans to send Jeyne somewhere like white harbour for safety to have the next king. So he remembers, that he has one more brother left, someone who is male( and no offence to Sansa but she cannot be the leader the north wants, especially not at this stage of the books, neither could Arya, she would be a terrible leader), as old as him so having been well educated, trained in fighting, and in manners of ruling, who loves the family and will act against the ironborn, and lannisters, and can have children as well as is not crippled, being able to lead in battles and wars. He legitimises Jon which as a king he can, Jon will be in the north already, so safe from lannister hands and able to build a new army and clear the ironborn out, and a king can free someone from their vows as well by giving men which his uncle and father often mentioned the wall had little, he gives a bribe of sorts. He can retake Winterfell as well, meaning the starks can regain control over the north, even if the riverlands falls to the lannisters again. He then sends two nobles, maege mormont and a glover to howlands reed, knowing they will be safe from ironborn and lannisters, the reeds will help them due to their loyalty, and therefore they can send word to their families of this, gaining support for Jon, which may have worked as Alysanne mormont seems to have heard word, and the glovers join forces with Stannis rather swiftly. That way, a stark can become king if he dies, meaning when the lannisters attempt to take the north using sansa, they will find strong resistance, a new king to rally behind, a fresh army ready,
Catelyn’s horrendous mistakes alone should make her irredeemable, but what really galls is Jon’s treatment. She might have a moment of ‘charitable’ regret in the show (albeit short lived and after the fact), but in the books, she is remorseless. Anyone who forgives Catelyn for her mistakes by chalking them up to motherly desperation, I gently but firmly point to Jon freezing his ass off on the wall. If only she could only retain that cruel, calculating nature for use on the Lannisters, ASOIAF would be only one book. P.S. All the major Tullys aside from the Blackfish are a plague upon Westeros
I'm really surprised that Jon never called her "Catelyn Stoneheart" when he was a kid, their reunion (If Stoneheart and the BWB goes North and if Jon is resurrected) will be some of the best parts of TWOW! P.S: It's a shame that a Lannister, a Baratheon and a Stark follow the Tully words (in self-destructive ways) better than the Tullys themselves: Family (Tywin), Duty (Stannis), Honor (Ned)!
@@abdulwahab558 That would be the biggest irony of all, but If this happen in a room full of northern lords and if Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are with Jon, it might cause a similar reaction to where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna TQOLAB at the Tourney of Harrenhal (especially if Jon reveals his Targaryen parentage with Howland Reed), I even picture Blackfish or Wyman Manderly having a similar reaction to that of Robert when Lyanna was crowned!
I think having her firmly against Jon is perfect story setup for after she becomes lady stoneheart. If Jon does end up becoming lord of Winterfell, he will have her to contend with. And She will still hate the living guts out of him
So incredibly sad and beautiful I always wonder what answer Game of Thrones will give to some the questions it poses...in many ways, Neds honor killed him- but if the books follow the show, it may also save not only his children but the North and the world...so what does that say for honor..that it may not be the short term, but the long term solution? Either way this plus the music makes me want to weep
Book Robb was a different animal from the show, he was his father’s son, totally and only concerned with family and honour, he knew his family would never be safe as for long they were subjects of the crown and knew Jon was the only man capable of leading the North to victory and securing the safety of his family. Don’t want to spoil anything for those who haven’t read the books, but let’s say Catelyn never forgot Robb’s will.
That would have been really cool. I think Martin had this thing with his kings in the story since none of them have any pov chapters. I think it’s so the reader can see what the men that have so much power are truly like. Weather they are honorable and noble like Robb, smart and cunning with Stannis, Prideful and boastful like Robert or cruel and evil like Joeffery. Something about how the people closest to the kings (Catalyn, Ned, Davos, Tyrion, Cersei) watch how being king changes them really adds emotion. Still Robb is awesome and it would have been awesome to see the story through his eyes.
@@zagreus1023 Martin once admit he could have given Robb a POV, thats one the things he felt the show did better (they expanded on Robb's conquest in the west). I would have loved to see a Robb chapter during his westerland campaign.
@@aesir1ases64 A POV chapter of Robb during the Battle of the Whispering Woods or when he's claimed KITN in Riverrun or during his time resting and being treated by the Westerlings would be cool to read!
The door closes before the reveal,but i do believe it. Wyman Manderley knows it,he will be/is crucial to the restoration. I hope we get the next book in 2022.
@@kotorandcorvid4968justified yes, rational no disrespected her son's authority, and in freeing jaime, making lord karstark seek revenge, thus forcing robb to deal with the freys for more men indirectly set the chain of events that would culminate in the red wedding
Another reason why Catelyn disliked Jon so much was that he looked more like Ned than her own sons. His features were more Northern and Stark than Robb.
Robb stark was simply too young and was thrown into a war for which he was not ready even by medieval standard he was the young hero whose potential was snuffed out too early plus he was thrown into a impossible situation with players more conniving manipulative and evil .he was a summer child he grew up in a time of peace and ned stark didn't had the time to complete his training and from the histories we have seen even full grown adults making stupid mistakes with less trying circumstances.essentially Robb stark had a lot riding on his shoulders he did the best he could but he slipped a few times as any inexperienced ruler would and no one was there to help him out even though he was surrounded by these old men of wars
To those that say Catelyn is too bicker, hateful and petty. You have to remember she is from the South. The loyalty and honor Starks have in the North is a stark contrast (pun intended) from how politics in the South work.
Catelyn hates Jon so much shed rather give Robbs crown and kingdom to a non Northerner/Riverlander. How disgraceful would it be to have some prissy noble to swagger in after not doing a thing in the fighting for the independence of your home.
Honestly they should've had this in the show along with Jeyne Westerling. It showed Robb as a tragically honorable man like his father who pays a price for his honor
I know that Catelyn despises Jon and her opinion on this matter is skewed by that hatred, but she’s not entirely wrong… while Jon would never harm Robb’s child, there is a chance that Jon’s children and Robb’s potential children could have conflict later in life, even after Jon’s death.. a true heir will always have a stronger claim than the children of a legitimized bastard … it’s very possible that this could lead to conflict later down the road
The way Catlyn treated Jon was fucked up. Everyone else treated him like a true born stark but she just couldn’t see anything other than a bastard. Sad...
This is a great moment in the books but to me I think the scene in the show when Catelyns confession to Talia about wishing Jon dead then praying to the gods to save him and she will be a mother to him but she couldn't do it is better but that's my opinion
Catelyn is such a bad person, this makes me glad she died in the Red Wedding. Jon was a Stark and was more like Ned than any of her Sons. She shunned him for no reason that he caused and he was as much a Stark as Robb. It’s sad that even in a dire situation like this she would suggest naming some random descendant of Ned’s father who Robb doesn’t even know.
Sam: "Why you're not sad about the death of your lord father's wife alongside Robb's, Jon?" Jon: "Because she was no more than a advantageous sociopath who used to rape my father! And because she deserved to die!"
Fully agree how Cat is wrong 💯 on how she treats Jon. But to say she’s a bad person is a bit unfair. Depending on which you refer to (Books or Show) Book Cat yeah absolutely she fucking sucks. The second she told Jon it should’ve been him instead of Bran I wanted her to kick the bucket right then and there. Cat in the show is a bit less hateful, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she actually would agree with Jon being heir (all be it grudgingly) Because she knows how much loyalty Jon Snow has for his family and that he would do anything for them. Cat is a very complex person and in all honesty her treatment of Jon is really the only thing I hate about her. If that wasn’t a thing she’d actually be a really genuine women.
Bruh her house, her kids, her entire existence is on the brink of destruction. Yet her stubbornness clouds her judgement in doing what she knows she should.
Such a beautiful scene.. there is much drama in this scene, the emotion, character, personality and why did D&D not include this scene? This is really a dumb decision. They could have used this to depict further why Robb imprisoned his mother after she let Jaime escape.
Catelyn, wants Jon gone so he can't be a threat and try to take ownership of the castle. Robb, "He's my brother, and it's about time people start calling him that"
Rob hit her with the "I'm not asking you, I'm telling you" and I'm here for it.
Love me some Jon but Robb was the real king
Robb is the son who everyone wants to have.
Robb was born with power meant succeed, Jon was a bastard who started from the bottom and worked his way up to be king, he is a true warrior, a leader, the king in the north
@@bellamydoucette9530Amen
A real dumb king
@@bellamydoucette9530 what? He didnt start from the bottom lol. He had a lord eduction
“I don’t have to. I’m the King.” Such a fucking power move
Yeah but any man who must say "I am the king" is no true King! 😂
Nah jk Robb is a king imo.
Oh, this definitely must have been an inspiration for one of Vegeta's lines in DBZ Abridged Broly.
@@francescapatti2934Twyin got the last laugh there though….the mfer
I love how Grey Wind shows the anger that Robb cannot. Robb is too good a son and too stoic a leader to show it, but his rage at Catelyn, his frustration with her, and his own grief over Bran and Rickon are reflected in Grey Wind.
One of the things the show really missed out on was exploring how all of the Stark children, save only Sansa, are wargs. The power of the Old Gods, the ancient and mysterious history of House Stark, and the magic of the North that Catelyn never understood.
Robb and Jon are more alike than Robb and Catelyn could ever be.
Indeed, Rob inherited Cat's and the Tully's physical appearance but besides that him and Jon were true Ned Stark child and real norsemen to the core, and all that came with that was something that Cat never truly understood, even after 20 years up in the north.
When Ned and the other Stark children look at Jon, they see Orys Baratheon, Brandon Snow, the Velaryon bastards of the Dance, BloodRaven and the Sand Snakes, when Catelyn looks at Jon, she sees Ramsay Snow and Daemon Blackfyre!
I had this impression that Sansa was a warg too, there was a chapter in AFFC or ADWD where she seemed dreaming about the bard imprisoned in the Eyrie. In the dream, she was looking at him while singing sad songs in his cell, but it felt 'real' for her
@@jamesmario3162 Martin himself comfirmed that all the Stark children are wargs, but since Sansa is more southerner than northerner, she probably doesn't know or care about this skinchanging stuff, but I think she will probably starts to develops her warging powers and open her 3rd eye slowly in the next 2 books!
@@PedroLucas-mg5je oh thanks for the info, I hope she does though, that'd be cool
“Mother, you forget….my father had 4 sons.”
“She had not forgotten”
God this should’ve been in the show.
It's better than combing Jon Snow and Young Griff's characters together. Dumbest change ever
@@modernchaos8999interesting what do you think Jon plot line in the books will be and what part do u think the show merged young griff plot line with Jon
I suspect he means the fan theory that fake aegon will get to westerns before Dany, become beloved, and in her frustration at this false dragon Dany will burn down kings landing. The show halfway sort of tries to make Jon the beloved westerosi Dany is jealous of... but it's dumb and bad and forced
@@MattAlbiethat’s really interesting I didn’t know they had put Aegon’s ark into Jon Snow. You’ve got me thinking of Jon’s final arc then hahahahaha
This should have been in the show Yes. Great TV and acting between catlyn and Robb
Now wouldn't Jon becoming King of the North had been so much better in the show if this scene had been included?
The books > series , in every way!
But Jon becoming king due to his actions and the love/respect people got for him, is more powerful than him becoming king because of a piece of paper.
The story is better in the books, but the single scene Where they crown Jon, even though he has No right is probably the most powerful scene in the series.
@@maurosw3891 This scene only had to have been in the show. and then the result of it could have been that Robb never managed to legitimise Jon before his death. That way not only is the scene of Jon becoming king in the north as powerful as it was, it leaves the viewer much happier knowing this is exactly what Robb would have wanted. (Sansa, true born daughter of Ned Stark was there while a bastard was crowned king which is highly contentious. Sansa or Arya should be the ones to be crowned) All they had to do was make it clear that this is what Robb wanted to to do but didnt have enough time. perhaps place it right before his death.
💯
@@antonioscafuri756 Yeah, robb his brother.
But getting love and respect from everyone, even tho they should hate you because they don’t value bastards, is a much more compelling character arch imo.
Or even if Jon found the document legitimizing him, could even say Robb was killed at the red wedding before he had the time to send it.
She couldn't see through her own hate. House Stark was on the edge of being extinguished. If he died (King Rob) there would be no Starks left to inherit Winterfell. After 8,000 years ahe would see it fall, verse allow Jon the name. Such a hateful woman.
The 8000 years (or 10,000?) thing is the most ridiculous aspect of the ASOIAF. Martin's claim is that his writing is somewhat more realistic than conventional high-fantasy i.e. Tolkien. A whole 8000 year-old background for a noble house is beyond nonsense. The empires and nations rise and collapse in such a long time span. How can a family survive?
@@envinyatar5712 there's a Chinese family(Tang) that can trace its lineage to at least 1700 BC. That's about 3800 years of unbroken family tree. Or the Imperial family of Japan, that has near mythical lineage.
So not completely out of the realm of possibilities. Especially for a ruling family of the North, that had no real outside influences in the story until about 300 years ago. And it's fantasy.
@@envinyatar5712 story with dragons in it
"totally ridiculous that a single family could remain in power for 10,000 years."
Pick one.
@@RealitiesCookiejar To be fair I do believe the "8000 years" thing is probably a in world exaggeration considering their isn't much historical records of the legends of old
she was a tragic woman who had lost all of her kids except robb its understandable..if ur wife comes home with someone else kid would you love him?
“I don’t have too, I’m the king.” What a bad ass. Rob the young wolf will always be my favorite.
Notice how Robb (and by extension all the Stark children) never refer to Jon Snow as their “bastard brother” Just “Brother” To them, blood was enough to make Jon one of them! And that’s the reason I’ll always root for the Starks. Family.
they even treated theon as family more than his actual family did
"I don't care if he's a bastard, Ned Stark's blood runs in his veins!"
-Lyanna Mormont
sansa called him a bastard and only ever reer to him as half brother
Except Sansa. She called him half brother all the time. And she was the most distant one to Jon while Robb and Arya being the closest.
@@vikasithachiranjaya3005 maybe in the books. In the show she referred to him as brother. Like when she talked to Breean about Jon and she said “He’s my brother he’ll keep me safe.”
Damn Robs faith in jon here is outstanding.
@Lord Cregan Stark ironic because out of all the stark children jon is the only one not descended from ned
@@ilect1690 but he took all his characteristic
Wrong faith. Jon got himself killed by his men lol for the right reasons cause he deserted them
If I remember correctly Robb is the one that trained Jon in how to use a sword, and after Jon finished learning the basics he beat Robb in every duel they had ever since.
@@ilect1690 has Neds blood tho, that’s his uncle and he was raised by him.
I really do love this moment from A Storm of Swords. It shows Robb's faith in Jon, his trust in him. And that trust is rewarded when, after Robb is gone and Jon is offered legitimacy and lordship over Winterfell by Stannis, he refuses in order to honor Sansa's claim and the Old Gods Melissandre would see burned to ash.
That is extremely funny since Robb did not name John as his hair. He only threatened Catelyn that he will do it. Naming Jon would be stupid as he has nothing common with riverlands.
@@robertsmith8734 acepting the riverlands into his kingdom was a horrible decision
@@robertsmith8734 Except that he did name Jon as heir. Maege Mormont and Galbert Glover escaped the Red Wedding when they were sent off with the letter legitimizing Jon and naming him heir. They must be with Howland Reed, or somehow must've gotten past Moat Cailin. Who knows.
@@SankyEON He named Catelyn, yes Glover and Mormont have that will which is unimportant since Catelyn is a zombie.
@King Brandon IX Stark It is not. And no Robb Stark did not legitimize Jon Snow, no lord signed any such paper. He made Catelyn Tully his heir. Read these books please.
Best part of this whole thing is Grey Wind baring his teeth at Cat after her comments about Jon.
Jon and Robb together would have been unstoppable
The fact Catelyn compares Jon to theon simply for who she thinks he is so angering her dislike for Jon was one of the reasons I never truly liked her no matter how justified she is in her dislike
in the show at least she realizes her flaws, even if she doesn't overcome them. makes you emphasize with her, even if one doesn't like her
She (lady stoneheart) is going to crown Jon King of the North imo
@@garbageFreeFall interesting but i believe lady stoneheart is going to be used as a deterrent to arya's revenge fetish
@@garbageFreeFall no lol. Stannis is alive no KITN for Jon bran will be king
It's also interesting that Cat ends up comparing Robb's trust in Jon to his trust in Theon as Theon didn't kill Bran or Rickon
I love how in the books Jon and Robb loved each other so much. And Catelyn. She was never capable of letting go of her hatred for Jon, when Jon never did anything to deserve it.
It pissed me off when she compared Jon to Theon
Imagine how awesome it would be if the actors were able to read their character's lines in the audio books
Anything would be better than this narrator... There's a channel called "DavidreadsASOIF," he does a really good job.
I imagine reading Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring would give some of them much deserved closure after the 10 year flop that was the TV series.
I'd donate to that crowd fund.
On a different note, have any of you heard they DID rewrite season 8? It’s only a podcast. But give it a shot. It’s a different take on how it ended.
@@davidjuelfs1402 Who did? Dave and Dan? HBO?
What's poignant is Jon's last memory of Robb is the latter standing in the Winterfell courtyard with snow melting in his hair. The two are pained to bid each other farewell and never meet again.
People forget that Catelyn Stark in the books was like an Uber Karen. She hated Jon Snow waaaaaaaay more than the show let’s on.
Definitely! And for Jon’s sake I’m glad they did that. I would’ve felt even worse for him.
I find that very surprising since Catelyn was already so disdainful in the show and never bothered to hide it. I’d love to know more about it!
Read the books to many times. She is the worst. Comes back from the dead to be Karen Prime.
Why should she love him?
@@ltbraca470 it's understandable. To her Jon is from an affair Ned had. And the culture was that she had to accept that. She had to do her duty. She wasnt allowed to hate ned and be mad at him for the supposed affair for she was just a lady. Sadly she took it out on Jon who had nothing to do with that
“Jon is more Stark than any Nordlings from the Vale who have never set eyes on Winterfell.”
Wish we could’ve heard Robb say these things..would’ve had me tearing up a bit.
I believe he said either northlings or lordlings
@@blackwingdragonmasta probably Northlings. But Nordlings sounds a bit better to me. Lol
@@Ghost-uc8gd He said lordling
@@wain9026 Not true
@@aleemizcool3654 gotcha
"Jon is no Theon." "So you pray." No Cat, so you know.
You can't really "know" anything.
Everyone else listening to this: "Wow. Robb is such a great brother."
Me listening to this: "Wow. Catelyn is so fucking petty."
Both
Cat Tully is the worst!
@@joshstroven8284 totally agree! But this is also the same woman that when Ned came back with Jon she didn't blame him because their marriage was new and they didn't love each other yeah. She literally admitted Ned had no obligation to her then! But you Hate the baby that did nothing???
Me personally I love characters like Catelyn. Very flawed layered and in some ways understandable. I don’t think a good character has to be likable. She pisses me off, then she makes me feel for her. Love it man
@@joshstroven8284 Agreed
I love the dueling sides. This is another great example of the human heart in conflict with itself. Robb loves Jon. he's not only his brother but his best friend and the only person he can truly trust. Cats hatred for Jon runs so deep that she refuses to admit the obvious and goes as far as to suggest a distant relative to be heir to her son's crown.
I wish this was in the show more than any other
It really annoys me that it wasn't b/c we never saw a family member fight for him until he was all Sansa had.
Imagine if they would have done this scene in the show. The letter ends up in the hands of a loyal bannerman after the Red Wedding and is presented in the council after Jon and Sansa take back Winterfell from the Boltons. This helps solidify their decision to name him king, but more importantly, tells Jon how much his brother loved and trusted him.
Lyanna Mormont could still have done her whole thing because I think in the books Dacey Mormont has the letter and shes heading to Greywater Watch. Ya know the home of the only other dude who was at the Tower of Joy!
So Dacey could have gone to beat island and Lyanna could have gotten the letter.
Kind of goes against the whole point of that scene.
@@fightingmedialounge519 Not completely. There are definitely lords that take issue with the parentage of Jon and his status as a bastard. Being legitimized by Robb would have cemented his legitimacy further. I mean, after all, Roose bothered to legitimize Ramsay...
@@RGInquisitor the issue you're describing is the exactly the point of the scene. That the people chose Jon because he proved himself as a true stark despite being a bastard. Involving the will shifts focus away from Jon's actual character and instead makes it more about robbs personal wants. It also doesn't work thanks to robbs reputation being awful in the north as far as the show is concerned.
Yeah I wonder why they didn't include this scene especially when at this phase in the show it was still pretty good at adapting the source material
This scene becomes even sadder when you have to read about Jon’s blackout after being struck by iron emmet. Robb loved him and wanted him as heir, but he was so afraid of taking away from his siblings that he felt guilty about even thinking about taking Winterfell
Which I think that, if he comes back more villanous and wolfish after resurrection in TWOW and discover about Robb's will due to visions send by him during his time inside Ghost (via BloodRaven and/or Bran), Jon might use Robb's will as justification to take Winterfell by himself and even spread distorted half-truths about his siblings after he learns of their whereabouts (because, being honest, hanging with the same man that caused the death of your uncle/adoptive father, joining a group of assassins that uses the faces of dead people as masks, becoming the apprentice of an kinslaying, skinchanging tree-man and living on a island full of cannibals doesn't give you the best of first impressions)!
She would throw away the Norths fate to some random people they don't even know just to satisfy her petty hatred towards a man who's committed no sins against her other than existing. If she one day does find out that Jon is actually the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna, she'd probably deny it just to justify her blind hatred.
She'll probably try to kill him a second time because she surely holds a grudge for Rhaegar because he, indirectly, killed Brandon!
@@PedroLucas-mg5je this is awhile back but if you still around she met Brandon once and likely doesn’t harbor any feelings for him especially since from what I know she married Ned and their relationship was good at the time of her death it would have been around 18 years since she had met Brandon and the only problem Ned and her had was Jon
The source of her hatred literally comes from her perceiving Jon as Ned’s son. Why would she go on hating him if she no longer believed that?
@@thedemonhater7748, because she’s a paranoid, spiteful woman and a helicopter parent to a fault. Even if she didn’t blame him for Brandon’s death it would be completely plausible for her to consider Jon a threat to her children’s lives either because of Robert’s hatred and the Lannister’s grip on the throne starting a war, or because she would come to an illogical conclusion that Jon would blame the Starks for his upbringing as well as the deaths of his Targaryen family and seek revenge.
Cat’s the wicked stepmother of this series; there’s no way for her to accept Jon without changing her character.
I'm still rooting for a rugpull. Catelyn hated Jon in life, but Lady Stoneheart is around people that know Jons ancestry.
Imagine how awesome it would be if the vengeful spirit of the woman that despised Jon in life, supports him in death. An evil, brutal spectre that only carries on to right the wrongs of ger lifetime, dealing wrath to everyone that opposes the last of the Starks, including her sister in laws only son.
That would be such a cool subversion if everything we expect from a charachter like lady stoneheart.
After all, we only experienced her from the viewpoint of her victims. The brotherhood guys themselves are surprisingly chill and normal considering who they work for and what they are doing right now. Maybe Stoneheart is not what she seems to Freys and Lannisters.
Vengeful and brutal to those that wronged her family in life, but sad, broken and regretful in moments of quiet. One last mission: Get Aegon his birthright after denying it all of her life.
Robb was dealt a terrible hand and was thrown into kingship at far too young in age, in times of peace I'm sure he'd have made a great king
He, the boy of what 15?, was actually kicking ass as a war time king. Dude was having Tywin shaking in his boots so much so that Tywin had to resort to the Red Wedding.
Man I did not read the books but as I was listening I felt like crying. Rob is a really good brother
I mean, if Robb had legitimized Jon then he would become Jon Stark, and Jon Stark didn’t swear an oath to the Nights Watch.
"Jon Snow swor an oath to the Watch, not I". Jon said as he gathered his things
"Then be gone with you then, Stark." The lord commander said, Jon looked at long claw and with a deep breath said, "I have no right takeing it away from the Wall." "you have every right to, it was a gift, Jon." " a gift to a Snow, I am a Stark."
"Goodbye, commander." "Goodbye, Stark." Jon turned and walked away Ghost bounding down beside him.
@@katiedanner1 It would be out of character if Jon didn't stay with Longclaw if he was legitimized and left the Watch!
If jon was legitimized, he would become the king in the north and warden of the north.. then he won't be under the nights watch instead the nights watch will be under him ..
@@tanxeelhanif Wrong, the nights watch may be in the north but they take no part in the realms politics, Jon would be king but they wouldn't be beholden to him. But you are right that at this point if Jon were to get Robbs letter and the north supported it then the nights watch could do nothing to stop it other than to execute him before he could leave, but that would be foolish as well as they would have then just murdered the northern king and would almost assuredly get slaughtered by the northern houses. But it all depends on how the books go, since Jon is currently already dead and all.
@@tanxeelhanif that would probably be a good thing for the watch. A king in the north who has seen first hand what the watch is up against. He could have sent more men and supplies to strengthen the watch.
Lets be honest, Robb and Cat chapters were among the best to read! I hope Martin explore more this succession subplot in the following books.
uhm.... I have some bad news for you...
robb and jons friendship, nay brotherhood was amazing. THats because if you think about it, when robb was growing up Jon was his older bro, and as a younger bro myself older brothers are kind of like father figures in a way, betraying them is unthinkable. Jon deserved the throne after him it really maeks sense.
Jon and Robb were the same age, Jon was born at the tower of joy at the end of roberts rebellion, not sure when robb was born but he was born by the time ned came back with baby jon, the age gap between the 2 is probably no more than 50 days
According to what we know Robb is actually slightly older then Jon, though it’s such a meaningless amount of time between the two of them that their effectively the same age.
theyre basically the same age, the gap being in days lmao
Those last Catelyn POV chapters were so hard to read/listen to. Because of them walking the path of total destruction. The way GRRM created the set up of the red wedding was both awesome and painful... One could clearly see where this was going!
The pyromancer is the perfect name for this channel. RIP Dotrice
what happened to dotrice
@@notnero5280 passed away a while ago…. Unfortunately…. Worst part about winds coming out so late is we won’t have his amazing performance. I loved how he did Dolores Edd
@@zacrusk5274 what is dead may never die!
@@zacrusk5274 with all the hours of his narration that we have, I'm sure someone could make a deep-fake of his voice for all the different characters. And then someone could voice the new ones.
Out of all the Stark children and dire wolves, robb and grey wind has the strongest bond. I can only imagine how it was told that robb and grey wind are in sync and together in battle.
Based on what?
Jon and ghost for sure have a stronger bond bran and summer too he literally wargs in him all the time
Only Jon and Bran truly understood and trusted their wolves...Bran more so than Jon! Robb kept on ignoring Greywind's warnings.
They were certainly in sync and together in death.
Jon Snow, the true Hair to the Iron Throne. Born of Ice and Fire. The Prince that was promised. A Bastard, Ranger, Lord-Commander and finally… KING.
I don’t care what anyone says.. Jon snow is the main character/hero of the story.
Also a very very dead man in the books still.
@@giacomoromano8842 wdym
@@influicity4400 in the books he is still dead because GRRM hasn’t released the next book.
He was never a ranger, he was and still is a steward, a dead one for now. He was never made a ranger even though he could as lord commander, not that it matters anymore.
Robb always seem so sad. Despite winning constantly he is weakening his own position. He seems prone to melancholy. The same thing Barristan Selmy says of Rhaegar in a Storm of Swords. Rhaegar and Robb would have made excellent kings, but both felt this impending doom that would ruin them. They were right.
In his mind Arya, Bran and Rickon were dead, and Sansa was a prisoner (which she was). He loved his family, and it must've hurt him terribly that he couldn't save them. Plus, he was blaming himself for Bran and Rickon's death.
@@fortheloveofcats2462 I completely agree. Robb making Jon his heir confirms his cynicism to me. He loved Theon, he thought Theon loved them (which he did, but but god damn did Theon fuck everything), and how do you predict your mother commiting high treason? Then be expected to what, execute your own mom? Robb fucked up with Jeyne Westerling but fucking Catelyn screwed him almost as bad if not worse.
I just realized that Catelyn's feeling of being an outsider probably was fueled by her mistrust in ned after he brought home another womans child. How in the godswood she stated she always felt like an outsider is probably because she treated a true stark as an outsider and made him feel as such. Catelyn almost always treated him w passive aggression which led to jon claiming the bastards title and never claiming the stark name when in actuality he had STARK BLOOD. He was more stark than her, not by ned but by his sister. Even the fates in the stories acknowledged his stark blood by gifting him a direwolf just like the rest of the stark children. Only his was in the colour of his fathers house. I like to believe that the direwolves were meant to be found by jon himself since the pups came from a female just like jon did. Whereas the other children came from a male of the house. Also the direwolf was stabbed by a stags horn and jons mother lost her life because of the barratheons rebellion. If i recall correctly (pls correct me if im wrong) all the other pups were outside and suckling their mother but jons pup was still inside the dead mothers womb.
I'll always wonder why the heck Ned didn't asked Robert to legitimize him the moment he brought Jon to Winterfell...
@@PedroLucas-mg5je He wanted john to be safe, but because he has targarian blood he wouldnt risk it. Its much safer to put him on the wall, than to legitimise him. If johns secret was out it could start a new war, or john might be killed even if he doesnt want any power.
@@PedroLucas-mg5je Catelyn would have never forgiven him
The opposite, Ghost had opened his eyes and wondered off from their mother and was a bit away from the other pups. Also, when Bastards are allowed to fly their houses sigil, they have to invert the colours. The Stark sigil is a grey wolf on a white field, with the colours inverted it becomes a white wolf on a grey field. Which imo makes Ghosts albino colouring more significant
@@PedroLucas-mg5je why do you wonder? The answer is there, Jon is no bastard.
Ned raised Robb and Jon as his sons and raised them well. It shows by how much they love each other.
Comparing Jon to Theon is just another example of how outright rash and stupid Cat tended to be and act
When Catelyn sees Jon, she sees Ramsay and Daemon Blackfyre!
She lost two of her children because of theon she has every right to not trust jon
@@66something_77 She's justified to blame somoene innocent of any wrongdoing towards her all because of Theon? That's beyond stupid.
@@66something_77two different scenarios tho Theon was never a stark he’s a Greyjoy, Jon is their brother, their blood he would never hurt them
Great writing! No wasted dialogue, you can understand each persons point of view all while having sympathy for the situation. 10/10
Absolutely agreed…
The audiobook already bangs right, but with the music it's just extra awesome
Trying to compare the books to the show is like having a vivid dream, waking up in the middle of the night and writing it down. In the morning you see 'octopus ate bird' and wonder wth that was
I wish they had this in the show. Not sure why they didn’t.
D&D just kinda forgot about it.
The show went out of its way to paint Cat more favorably. D&D admitted this. In the books she is far more hateful, and far less intelligent.
@@jacobenke7936 she's more intelligent in the books. she offers rob even more sound council. she's more well educated on the affairs of the realm as well.
So sad that he died thinking that only Sansa and Jon were alive
"I don't have to... I'm the KING" BOOM
I feel like the build up to the Red Wedding is all the more tragic in the book for moments like this. Robb laying out his plan to retake Moat Cailin and legitimise Jon felt like a turning point for the character. He rushed to call the banners in the beginning to rescue his father, being crowned King in the North by his men only after the worst happened. Up until this point he was still a boy reacting to everything around him. Now Robb was finally acting like the King he was supposed to be, planning for the future and giving up his push south to defend the people he was sworn to protect.
In the show the Red Wedding played out like the latest bad thing to happen in Robb's run of rotten luck. Here, it was a betrayal that came out of left field after he'd finally learned the lessons his fairly disastrous campaign had taught him. He was just entering his prime, then he gets cut down.
"Any man who must say I am the king, is no true king."
This phrase is not applicable to Robb Stark.
True because besides a few missteps he actually acted like a king while Joffrey didn't do anything
Robb was a good King and good person, something that cannot be said for his mother. Jon was meant to rule, none would ever be a better King
Damn shows how Robb's bannerman should've assassinated Cat she was really fuckin up the war for Robb in so many ways
I was always amazed at that. Anyone else would be dead for doing the things she did.
I love the stark children except sansa, they are raised perfectly. Robb embodies the good honorable king and his kindness and love towards Jon shows that ned raised his sons perfectly and honorably. When brothers are murdering each other to steal power, the stark children actually loved and cared for each other showing that they had what other families never had- A true family!
Such a beautiful moment
Sansa has the illness called "inferiority syndrome" which makes her also a narcissist, she cannot accept herself as she was born, she always need to compare herself to others so that she could chill a little
@@4CelciusDegree bruh I love arya, she's charismatic and a much better person overall. Not to mention Aryas a total badass
@@4CelciusDegree I agree, sansa overall is very unlikeable. She has zero social awareness and she feels like a very negative and unlikeable person.
The dialogue in this is just great.
RIP Roy Dotrice. Winds of Winter won't be the same without you.
Any man who must say, “I am the King” is no true king - Tywin Lannister
To be fair to Robb, it was literally only Catelyn who needed to be reminded of that fact. After Robb intimidated Jon Umber, the north was pretty united in their worship of him.
that why he died in toilet lol
A lump was growing in my throat as I listened. What emotional passages.
Isnt it said that Robbs choice in succession was witnessed by Mage Mormont, Edmure, Catelyn,Greatjon, Galbart and patek Mallister so that mean if another book comes out. And Jon is resurrected he has people who witnessed him being made heir. Greatjon and Maege and Patrek are all imprisoned. But I also wished this part was in the show, it would have been cool.
Isn't maege or one of the mormont ladies in the neck searching for Howland Reed?
@@coldhands2802 I think Dacey is dead, Lyra and Jory are with Marge. Her 2and daughter Alysane or whatever rules bear island and Lyanna mormont is also on bear island.
@@waxierzero2198
I'm currently on my 2nd reading. Haven't memorized all the names yet lol. I just know there are ppl that seen Robb name Jon his heir and they are in the neck after Howland.
@@coldhands2802 idk who it could be.
@@waxierzero2198
Maege and a couple other ppl I'm almost sure
The starks we're such a tragic house, Honorable heros and lords of a long past age, in an era of vipers and dead men, oh the pain of ned stark loved his sister so much he was shamed him and his family, his wife would hate him and that boy never ever ever deserved this Jon never deserved any of this, Rob never deserved any of this, rob and jon's brotherly love was so tragic and killed me and the fact that the entire house was trashed by everyone and everything since the birth of westeros, the symbolism of how the dire wolf goes extinct or is tamed into hounds saddens me, they're bred out or killed off hunted to extinction
Do not ask me to support you in this Robb"......I don't have to. I AM THE KING!!! Badass line
I always liked the scene when they are saying bye to each other at Winterfell and Rob calls Jon "Snow" and then Jon calls rob "Stark." Interesting dynamic with Rob respecting Jon even though his mother hated him and considering that Rob was a mamas boy.
"If i die my next battle, my kingdom shal not die with me" is just such an awe striking, incredible line coming from a imaginary yet 14 year old! 14!
A king fighting for his kingdom and its people than his own self
That is why rob never lost a war he was smart. His mother put her emotions to play which cause problems to the starks.
Legally, I'd argue that by legitimizing Jon and turning him from Jon Snow to Jon Stark his oaths no longer count. He made those oaths as Jon Snow, not as Jon Stark.
an oath is an oath.. he must honor it
Thats the type of loophole would laugh and just straight up spit on because how pretentious it sounds lmao
Cat Tully hatred for Jon is what caused everything. Ned's death, Robb death Rickon's death. She caused it all hating Jon for no reason.
Dont See it
@@luissandro5535 Cat hatred for Jon made Jon take the Black. If not for that either Jon would have been with Robb when he went to war or he would have stayed in Winterfell as Warden of the North until Bran came of age. If Jon was in Winterfell Theon would have never tried to take it with Jon in command, or Robb would have sent Jon with Theon to the Iron Islands and Theon would not have betrayed Robb. Cat also took Tyrion hostage which led to Ned's men being killed. Had she not done that, when things went south in the South, Ned's loyal men would have gotten Sansa and Arya out of Kingslanding Landing. But there wouldn't have been a war in the first place if Cat wouldn't have took Tyrion. Ned would not have had to put him trust in Littlefinger if he had his men with him when exposing the Lannister children and possibly would have had the support of Stannis and Dorn behind him when he did if Syrio would have inquired about Ned sending Arya away so abruptly. Syrio definitely would would have encouraged him to wait for backup before accusing the queen. Cat also let Jamie go. Tywinn would never jeopardize Jamie's life and that was the only thing hold him back in the war. Tywinn would never had trusted the Freys to keep his son safe so the red wedding would never have happened in Jamie was still a hostage. Cat Tully caused it all!
@@ThomLodge nah bro.
If Jon didn't take the black, Jon will insist on joining Robb in the war and Robb will certainly want him by his side.
So we go to your 2nd scenario.
"Robb sends Jon with Theon to the iron islands"
By the time Theon came back to the iron islands, there were already ships ready to raid the north. Balon had already decided to attack the north which means he would probably take Jon as his hostage or will be cutting his head off. Theon will then proceed to attempt to prove that he is irornborn and the same things happen. But now Jon's death/capture will be on Robb's conscience.
Even if Ned's men stayed, they wouldn't be able to fight the combined might of Lannister men at arms and knights with the gold cloaks. So everything you said is all just wishful thinking.
Ned's death was caused by the combined results of several characters' decisions, not only by Cat.
@@luissandro5535 Actually in the books, the reason Robb marries Jayne Westerling is because of Jon. He hated how his mother treated Jon because he was a bastard. Didnt want the same thing happening because of his own actions. So, if catelyn accepted Jon, he never would've married Jeyne, he'd have kept his word to the Freys, hence never would've lost their army nor would've gotten himself killed.
I like how desperate things have gotten by this point for Robb, yet he shows himself more intelligent and long thinking then his mother and many others, not even the lannisters would have thought of what he did. He puts aside emotions and personal hopes, and looks at the facts and what's best for the entire North here. He knows exactly what the lannisters plan for Sansa, she is merely a key to them, and once she turns the lock for them, the lock being the north because of her place in line of sucession, she will die and the lannisters will rule Winterfell and the north, the only remnants of their family being the small stark blood that Sansa's childrens sons and daughters would have. He also knows that his two trueborn brothers are stated to be dead, and the Ironborn are not likely to let stark children live even if they were alive. His youngest sister, though it pains him greatly, is missing, and has been gone so long no one knows where she is, not even Varys, and he knows how dangerous the lands are now, especially for a girl. He is the last true born Stark that is not dead, a captive married to lannisters, or likely to be dead. He also realises that the lannisters will try to kill him, so that the male line will die out and only his sister who will be a lannister wife will be left to inherit. He has no child with Jeyne, so he cannot even make plans to send Jeyne somewhere like white harbour for safety to have the next king. So he remembers, that he has one more brother left, someone who is male( and no offence to Sansa but she cannot be the leader the north wants, especially not at this stage of the books, neither could Arya, she would be a terrible leader), as old as him so having been well educated, trained in fighting, and in manners of ruling, who loves the family and will act against the ironborn, and lannisters, and can have children as well as is not crippled, being able to lead in battles and wars. He legitimises Jon which as a king he can, Jon will be in the north already, so safe from lannister hands and able to build a new army and clear the ironborn out, and a king can free someone from their vows as well by giving men which his uncle and father often mentioned the wall had little, he gives a bribe of sorts. He can retake Winterfell as well, meaning the starks can regain control over the north, even if the riverlands falls to the lannisters again. He then sends two nobles, maege mormont and a glover to howlands reed, knowing they will be safe from ironborn and lannisters, the reeds will help them due to their loyalty, and therefore they can send word to their families of this, gaining support for Jon, which may have worked as Alysanne mormont seems to have heard word, and the glovers join forces with Stannis rather swiftly. That way, a stark can become king if he dies, meaning when the lannisters attempt to take the north using sansa, they will find strong resistance, a new king to rally behind, a fresh army ready,
Catelyn’s horrendous mistakes alone should make her irredeemable, but what really galls is Jon’s treatment. She might have a moment of ‘charitable’ regret in the show (albeit short lived and after the fact), but in the books, she is remorseless. Anyone who forgives Catelyn for her mistakes by chalking them up to motherly desperation, I gently but firmly point to Jon freezing his ass off on the wall. If only she could only retain that cruel, calculating nature for use on the Lannisters, ASOIAF would be only one book.
P.S.
All the major Tullys aside from the Blackfish are a plague upon Westeros
I'm really surprised that Jon never called her "Catelyn Stoneheart" when he was a kid, their reunion (If Stoneheart and the BWB goes North and if Jon is resurrected) will be some of the best parts of TWOW!
P.S: It's a shame that a Lannister, a Baratheon and a Stark follow the Tully words (in self-destructive ways) better than the Tullys themselves: Family (Tywin), Duty (Stannis), Honor (Ned)!
She might give Robb's crown to Jon after he is resurrected and maybe she learns from her mistakes
@@abdulwahab558 That would be the biggest irony of all, but If this happen in a room full of northern lords and if Sansa, Arya, Bran and Rickon are with Jon, it might cause a similar reaction to where Rhaegar crowned Lyanna TQOLAB at the Tourney of Harrenhal (especially if Jon reveals his Targaryen parentage with Howland Reed), I even picture Blackfish or Wyman Manderly having a similar reaction to that of Robert when Lyanna was crowned!
@@abdulwahab558 that is what is going to happen.
She will finally die when this happens as she will be at peace
I think having her firmly against Jon is perfect story setup for after she becomes lady stoneheart. If Jon does end up becoming lord of Winterfell, he will have her to contend with. And She will still hate the living guts out of him
I think it's badass that Greywind had more of a part to play in the books
So incredibly sad and beautiful
I always wonder what answer Game of Thrones will give to some the questions it poses...in many ways, Neds honor killed him- but if the books follow the show, it may also save not only his children but the North and the world...so what does that say for honor..that it may not be the short term, but the long term solution? Either way this plus the music makes me want to weep
Book Robb was a different animal from the show, he was his father’s son, totally and only concerned with family and honour, he knew his family would never be safe as for long they were subjects of the crown and knew Jon was the only man capable of leading the North to victory and securing the safety of his family. Don’t want to spoil anything for those who haven’t read the books, but let’s say Catelyn never forgot Robb’s will.
Great work! I really wished Robb had some POV chapters!
That would have been really cool. I think Martin had this thing with his kings in the story since none of them have any pov chapters. I think it’s so the reader can see what the men that have so much power are truly like. Weather they are honorable and noble like Robb, smart and cunning with Stannis, Prideful and boastful like Robert or cruel and evil like Joeffery. Something about how the people closest to the kings (Catalyn, Ned, Davos, Tyrion, Cersei) watch how being king changes them really adds emotion. Still Robb is awesome and it would have been awesome to see the story through his eyes.
@@zagreus1023 Martin once admit he could have given Robb a POV, thats one the things he felt the show did better (they expanded on Robb's conquest in the west).
I would have loved to see a Robb chapter during his westerland campaign.
@@aesir1ases64 A POV chapter of Robb during the Battle of the Whispering Woods or when he's claimed KITN in Riverrun or during his time resting and being treated by the Westerlings would be cool to read!
None of the king’s featured in A Song of Ice and Fire have viewpoint chapters. I think that’s really cool
I love that Robb immediately thought of Jon even tho he’s a Snow
Robb and Jon were as tight as Jamie/Tyrion
More than that...
Robb really is that nigga.
The door closes before the reveal,but i do believe it. Wyman Manderley knows it,he will be/is crucial to the restoration. I hope we get the next book in 2022.
Howland Reed is the one that knows it and is crucial to the restoration. GRRM kept on teasing us that a lot of information lies with the crannog man!
Putting the music of the show over the audiobook is insanely moving
Catelyn Stark was GOT's Skyler White.
So she was justified and rational, like Skyler?
@@kotorandcorvid4968justified yes, rational no
disrespected her son's authority, and in freeing jaime, making lord karstark seek revenge, thus forcing robb to deal with the freys for more men indirectly set the chain of events that would culminate in the red wedding
I wish so much that Roy Dotrice could have narrated every last book of Game of Thrones. He was a MASTER.
Also a Maester!
Another reason why Catelyn disliked Jon so much was that he looked more like Ned than her own sons. His features were more Northern and Stark than Robb.
Always hated Catelyn....she screwed everything up and was a narrow minded and abusive old bat. I often skipped her chapters when rereading the books
On the other hand, Catelyn was the only window we got into Robb’s dialogue and actions so I say you’re missing out.
Robb stark was simply too young and was thrown into a war for which he was not ready even by medieval standard he was the young hero whose potential was snuffed out too early plus he was thrown into a impossible situation with players more conniving manipulative and evil .he was a summer child he grew up in a time of peace and ned stark didn't had the time to complete his training and from the histories we have seen even full grown adults making stupid mistakes with less trying circumstances.essentially Robb stark had a lot riding on his shoulders he did the best he could but he slipped a few times as any inexperienced ruler would and no one was there to help him out even though he was surrounded by these old men of wars
One word: GOOSEBUMPS!
I loved this from Robb! And Roy Dotrice was perfect in reading it to us ❤
Isn’t there a theory that stone heart is looking to give Jon the crown? The last degree from her son was for Jon to inherit but it’s hard to envision.
To those that say Catelyn is too bicker, hateful and petty. You have to remember she is from the South. The loyalty and honor Starks have in the North is a stark contrast (pun intended) from how politics in the South work.
JESUS WHO LEFT THIS OUT OF THE SHOW
Catelyn hates Jon so much shed rather give Robbs crown and kingdom to a non Northerner/Riverlander. How disgraceful would it be to have some prissy noble to swagger in after not doing a thing in the fighting for the independence of your home.
Honestly they should've had this in the show along with Jeyne Westerling. It showed Robb as a tragically honorable man like his father who pays a price for his honor
The book audio plus the stark theme is awsome. Great job man :D
The part when he said my father had four Sons with that background music on time in that moment was awesome 1:25
I know that Catelyn despises Jon and her opinion on this matter is skewed by that hatred, but she’s not entirely wrong… while Jon would never harm Robb’s child, there is a chance that Jon’s children and Robb’s potential children could have conflict later in life, even after Jon’s death.. a true heir will always have a stronger claim than the children of a legitimized bastard … it’s very possible that this could lead to conflict later down the road
3:00 is my favourite part. It goes so well with the music
The way Catlyn treated Jon was fucked up. Everyone else treated him like a true born stark but she just couldn’t see anything other than a bastard. Sad...
This is a great moment in the books but to me I think the scene in the show when Catelyns confession to Talia about wishing Jon dead then praying to the gods to save him and she will be a mother to him but she couldn't do it is better but that's my opinion
Man when Martin writes he is so powerful..
Love Roy Dotrice's voice in the audiobooks
Catelyn is such a bad person, this makes me glad she died in the Red Wedding. Jon was a Stark and was more like Ned than any of her Sons. She shunned him for no reason that he caused and he was as much a Stark as Robb. It’s sad that even in a dire situation like this she would suggest naming some random descendant of Ned’s father who Robb doesn’t even know.
Sam: "Why you're not sad about the death of your lord father's wife alongside Robb's, Jon?"
Jon: "Because she was no more than a advantageous sociopath who used to rape my father! And because she deserved to die!"
Fully agree how Cat is wrong 💯 on how she treats Jon. But to say she’s a bad person is a bit unfair. Depending on which you refer to (Books or Show) Book Cat yeah absolutely she fucking sucks. The second she told Jon it should’ve been him instead of Bran I wanted her to kick the bucket right then and there. Cat in the show is a bit less hateful, and I wouldn’t be surprised if she actually would agree with Jon being heir (all be it grudgingly) Because she knows how much loyalty Jon Snow has for his family and that he would do anything for them. Cat is a very complex person and in all honesty her treatment of Jon is really the only thing I hate about her. If that wasn’t a thing she’d actually be a really genuine women.
Ned should have told her.
@@louisbrown4620 told her what? He was a bastard, he wasn’t a Targaryen, that’s just fan fiction from the show.
"You are a good man with a good heart. And it's hard for a good man to be King"
King T'Chaka, The Black Panther
Only if the audiobook had a score by Djawadi with Roy Dotrice reading for all the books
What an amazing scene. GEORGE RR MARTIN just evokes such emotions man…
Bruh her house, her kids, her entire existence is on the brink of destruction. Yet her stubbornness clouds her judgement in doing what she knows she should.
Such a beautiful scene.. there is much drama in this scene, the emotion, character, personality and why did D&D not include this scene? This is really a dumb decision. They could have used this to depict further why Robb imprisoned his mother after she let Jaime escape.
Catelyn, wants Jon gone so he can't be a threat and try to take ownership of the castle.
Robb, "He's my brother, and it's about time people start calling him that"
I missed this so much in the series, for Robb to remember Jon and want to involve him in the family issue