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As a Turkish citizen I can proudly say that we use the "equal" as wife or husband. Wife says "he is my equal - 'Eş' in Turkish, and the husband says the same for his wife when introducing each other to someone. "To wish be equal to each other" may mean as a proposal in Turkish. So this scene means a lot for us, more than any other.
This is a tragic love story done so right. It's two people deciding to not be together because they're both serving something bigger than both of them. It's not about insecurities or traumas or messed up behavior. Everything is so right between them but it has to break because there are bigger things than their relationship at stake
Except that’s not what happened in the movie. She was given no choice in the movie and they didn’t break up. He chose someone else without saying anything to her. He betrayed her.
@@dsatt57 It appears to her that he chose someone else. To him, it's just a political marriage that he must partake in for the plan to work, something that he doesn't take joy in.
I love how Paul starts off inspiring and then the film starts to slowly become foreboding. The audience begins to discover what kind of story this is. In that moment the thin layer of the heroes journey is shattered. The moment where Paul Atredies' true destiny is revealed in all its horrifying glory: A golden path illuminated by a universe in flames.
I think the story started with Paul being torn by both his parents’ expectations. At least his father made him feel like he had a choice. I think he always suspected his mom had set him up for something awful tho.
Seeing Chani stand there atop the dunes, brave yet completely heartbroken, as Paul perverts the Fremen’s victory into the beginning of his eternal holy war, as he leaves their love behind to become a god emperor of death, instantly turning liberation into an even greater oppression, all her dreams, personal and political, die at once, and so she takes the only choice left to her: to leave. It is tragically captivating and one of my top three cinema endings of all time.
I can't help but wonder if FilmPaul took the risk because he had the vision of her standing at his side. Also, if they're going to continue the series, Chani *has* to get back together with Paul because the stories are all about her death and their children.
@Matt42MSG I think the film seems to give the impression that Paul decided ultimately to go south because of his vision of Chani dying to nuclear fire. I think that is supposed to be the future that happens if he tries to use the nukes without going South and getting his full abilities awakened.
Whilst on the topic of Zendaya, I would love to see a cinema therapy for Tashi, Art and Patrick from challengers. Also so excited to watch this dune part 2 is my favourite film of this year so far
I had the privilege of seeing Hans Zimmer's official tour with all his musicians and singers, that love theme is just one dude with a flute and damn. Absolutely recommend the show, it was amazing
I was totally waiting for you to mention honesty and open communication! Why didn't Paul just communicate his plans and what he saw and what he feels needs to happen?! Sure, we could argue "She'd never agree or understand" but he didn't even try. When they first got to know each other, they talked about things. Now, he just makes his own choices without her input. Just straight up "I know what's best for you and I'm gonna do it whether you like it or not."
In the books he did exactly that, and she supported him fiercely. I don't understand why they changed it. For more drama? There was plenty of drama already.
@@amandabridget8706 I think it was a good decision. for one book Chani was pretty bland, but I think the main reason was, that her viewpoint is needed as contrast. Frank Herbert wrote this book as a warning from charismatic leaders and was surprised when Paul was celebrated as a hero. In the book it's also easy to miss, because the hard turn only takes place on the last few pages and pretty much everyone is on board with it, so having Chani as an oppositional character really helps
That "The Mahdi is too humble to say He is the Mahdi. Even more reason to know He is!" feels like it would have been completely at home in "The Life of Brian." Trying to remember how close LoB got to that line, but it's been too long since I've seen it.
Brian: ...I'm not the Messiah! HONESTLY! Follower: Only the true Messiah denies his divinity! Brian: What?! Well what sort of chance does that get me?! Alright, I am the Messiah! All the followers: He is! He is the Messiah! Brian: Now, f*** off! (I had to look it up)
I love how Paul lies about everything he promised Chani during his prophecy speech. His actions disprove every sweet word: "There is no one in this room who can stand against me! [...] I am Paul Maud'Dib Atrades, Duke of Arakis! The Hand of God by my witness, I am The Voice from the Outer World!" making Chani's heartbreak justified.
@@BatAmerica so what? Him drinking the water of life is literally what allows the Fremen to achieve victory. And him going south was already due to his status as a growing messiah figure, which is exactly why he was pressured to attend the meeting of leaders. Paul never lied to Chani about what he intended to do in the books. She knows who he is and what his intentions are. This contrived movie antagonism is a gaping plot hole in order to fuel relationship drama, and is part of why the movie fails as an adaptation.
@@derek96720 You're right about book Paul, though the movie version blatently lied about his values when drinking the water of life. If movie Paul said, "Chani if I go South I will have to change to survive." then I would agree with you. The problem is, she was concerned for his safety and he omitted the source of his fear (drinking the water of life). Chani values authenticity and Paul's dishonesty is the ultimate betrayal.
@@derek96720 Frank Herbert himself said he was disappointed that people viewed Paul as heroic figure after the first book, when his intention was that Paul becoming Lisan Al Gaib was a manipulative and ultimately the wrong move, therefore he wrote Dune Messiah to correct it With this intention in mind, Dennis Villenueve rewrote Chani as a catalyst for the audience to understand, that when Paul chose to become the problematic messiah leader, he is going down a dark path, betraying the promises he made to Chani to not change nor to abuse the prophecy
What’s interesting is that in Dune: Messiah, even though he’s legally married to Irulan, it’s only for political reasons. Chani is technically a concubine but she’s more or less his wife because Paul refuses to have any relationship with Irulan. So far as Paul doesn’t even share a bed with Irulan.
Mirror's his father's relationship with Jessica. She was also technically a concubine, but for all intents and purposes was Leto's wife, and mother to their son. Leto just kept himself unmarried in case a union would benefit their house. Even in the first movie, Leto says to Jessica: "I should have married you". I wonder if that line will come back around in part 3.
Seems like they're setting up a different dynamic between them, given the focus on Chani apparently becoming a wormrider at the end. Seems like they'll give her more power in the relationship than just being a concubine. I haven't read Dune Messiah, but from how they've developed her in the films so far, I don't see her fitting into the role of a "concubine" very well. Certainly not willingly. I can imagine them being portrayed as just sort of distant awkward aquaintances for like the first half of the film or something, with Chani just focusing on leading the Fremen and such, while Paul is being Emperor... maybe they don't even come into contact at all... and then at some point, they meet again, and fall in love again, and essentially have like an affair, etc...
@@AWSVidsJessica was a concubine, the _only_ concubine, the mistress of the palace. Now in a lot of history kings have kept mistresses, favourites, who have been the true powers at court, not the official wife, the queen, sometimes the queen in the shadows, with the concubine the star of the court. Chani in the books is the only concubine, the true wife, even if she is locked in a power struggle with both Irulan, and the whole court, who do not think her worthy, tainted. There are many ways to write this.
@@AWSVids Having read Dune Messiah, you’re right, they’re giving her a way more prominent role than she had either in either the Dune or Dune:Messiah book, they’ll have to change A LOT of that book considering its all stage-play Shakespearean court-drama type conflicts between characters, and Chani is hardly as active a player as in the movies. It’s Irulan who is way more active driving the plot forward. Florence v Zendaya will be an acting performance to watch thats for sure, very excited for it, even if it’ll probably disappoint non-book-readers with how wordy and ‘boring’ it is compared to Dune Part 2’s war epic. Also Chani is pretty much a stalwart believer in the books, she doesn't question Paul's intentions, his Fremenness, his prophecy, there's none of the North-South or skeptic/conservative divide, and honestly it'll make it an even better movie seeing how the writers try to navigate the Messiah adaptation and figuring Chani's more prominent role into it
To me, the original way Chani deals with Paul's marriage is far more interesting. Paul is from a culture where marriage has nothing to do with love. He was raised in a house where his father never married his mother because they may need the marriage option for alliance purposes. Chani even talks to Jessica about it. Jessica warns Chani this could happen. So when it happens, it is not a surprise at all. Chani is supportive of it. She, being from a highly utilitarian warrior culture, sees the utility in it. She just walks up to Irulan and tells her (and I'm paraphrasing) "You get to call him husband, but his heart is mine." like the bad ass she is. Paul backs Chani up on this sentiment. Chani is also well aware that Paul is looking into various futures and has faith that he'll choose the best one he can. What makes it interesting is it showing how two wildly different cultures can still fit like a glove. Even though they get to their perspectives by different means, the still end up on the same page. Plus it's super interesting because of how different it is from how our culture views marriage. Handling it the way they did in the movie messes up the character a bit. She comes across less confident and utilitarian than the original version. Plus if they go into future books, that reaction will be inconsistent with how she behaves in the next book.
Yup. Got rid of that orgy scene to show the open-mindedness of the fremen. I like the film, but Denis nerfed the fremen culture hard in order to have this drama. Far more interesting the way it was written. Far more mature.
I don’t think Chani felt betrayed by his marriage proposal. More by his desire to rule at all. I think she hoped he was going to dismantle the existing system - not take over. I could totally see her coming back with that awesome line in the next movie when she realizes she’s pregnant. And it would be esp harsh if she’s visibly pregnant and Paul won’t touch Irulan 😬
I re-read Dune (just Dune, not Messiah) recently and my take on Chani here was completely different. It felt like all of her badassery is essentially castrated almost as soon as she gets together with Paul - she goes from being fierce and making her own choices to being always left behind, in the background, in the sietch, because Paul tells her to; she's relegated to the role of nothing more than an obedient wife and mother, and when Paul tells her he wants to marry Irulan, her acceptance is given with sadness and resignation. "He's your husband, but he loves me" is just the way she tries to comfort herself on the advice of Jessica. Herbert, in my opinion, betrays Chani as a character in her own right throughout the first book. She's just a typical "love interest" - cool enough to attract the hero but then god forbid she should challenge or overshadow him in any way. Movie Chani maintains a consistent character in both movies and her love for Paul doesn't erase her personality. Thus space is made for a conflict between her core beliefs and her feelings, which makes her plot line much more interesting, realistic and heartbreaking, while also not making her a victim.
I think people need to keep in mind that Dune Messiah was written solely because too many people thought Paul was amazing. Frank Herbert wanted people to realize that Paul chose to make decisions that led to the deaths of billions. He chose power despite the consequences because he wanted to win, and Chani couldn't support that (the movie version of Chani anyways, book Chani is super different).
I kindly disagree. It's been a while since I read the book but I thought the reason for Paul to start the holy war was because of the threats from the great houses and the religious fervent Fremans. If he didn't start the war then him and the Fremans would lose freedom to the houses. I don't remember if he was actively seeking power for the sake of power, or more for the protection of those whom he loved, but he did say he couldn't control the situation anymore when he became this god-like figure to the Fremans, and have to keep going.
The big problem for me in the Herbert books is that we're supposed to believe Paul is this bad guy, but we never really see it. Messiah is all court politics and maybe a couple lines of "oh yeah billions of people have died due to Paul's decisions." We never see the Jihad being waged on other planets at Paul's command. We never see him lose control of his own fanatics. In many ways Paul is portrayed as a flawed messiah that is swept up in his prescient knowledge that there is only one path he is "allowed" to take. Paul fights against his "terrible purpose", but no matter what he does he can never seem to avoid it. Paul is a tragic character and a warning against blindly following charismatic leaders because they can very often be captured by their own movement and/or hurt a lot of people.
@@zackattack366 Agreed. I remember reading all the Dune books as a teenager and being swept up with Paul's story. Then after the movies came out I was surprised at how I had missed the criticism of the idea of the "saviour". So I re-read the first book (thinking that maybe it was just me not being a mature enough reader at the time). And okay, now that I know the intended message, I can sort of see it being heavily hinted at, but ultimately Paul still comes across as sympathetic, aspirational, and well-meaning, and his choices come across as correct (or even the only possible choices) under the circumstances he finds himself in. In short, I think Herbert wrote a great book, but he failed at delivering his intended message of criticism.
I cannot wait to see their dynamic in Dune: Messiah! This is so different from where they leave off at the end of the first book because they made Chani such a more complex character, it will be so interesting to see how they adapt their relationship in part 3… Edit: changing “better” to “more complex” as comments made me realize those are not equivalent for other people
Nnngh I mean...book Chani is a total badass thooo! She's a warrior, understands politics, and in Messiah she's the one holding it up for Paul. And let's not even talk about Children! I like movie-Chani, she's cool. Zendaya's acting is great. But I absolutely LOVE book-Chani
@@rjoe3309same! Book Chani is my favorite literary character ever! My guess is that, since there won’t be a Children adaptation, they went for a totally different arc for movie Chani, also because the whole concubine situation could have been easily misunderstood when portrayed in a movie instead of a book. I’m curious to see what they do with her in Messiah!
Potential hot take: I love the changes that Denis Villeneuve made from the books. It totally makes sense for him to do so when he's only intending to do the first two books. As much as I would love to see the entire series be done, I would prefer an animated series for the longevity. There's just so much lore, time jumps, and characters who survive over a ridiculously long time that it would make for a great animated series option. For a movie, though? I have all the respect for Denis Villeneuve and crew. Great video, guys! Thanks for all that you guys do 😁.
Yeah I don’t love the changes, but I see what Villeneuve was going for. Movie Chani is much more understandable by an audience with a modern sensibility and I understand why he wouldn’t risk being cancelled for portraying her as the concubine of a “white savior“ when he doesn’t need Paul and Chani to be together for Children of Dune to happen. An animated series would be awesome though, and could be so much more faithful to the books!
@@valentinagambetti167people still thought it was a white saviour story even after the changes (even after he made it blatantly obvious but they still didn’t understand).
@ Yeah, no doubts about that, but imagine having the female protagonist/love interest of that white savior openly addressed to as a concubine… people would have gone mad
I have to say top thanks for seeing the kiss scene through! I was scared you guys were gonna cut just before the music goes nukezimmer. Denis is on my list as one of the top greatest filmmakers of this century, he did something that is deeply hard to pull off which is making a yellow and orange environment look like one of the most beautiful places on earth. I have nothing but respect for his mastering of the marriage between ambient music and ambient filmmaking. A bloody genius!
I think a big problem here is that Paul doesn't communicate. He should have told Chani his intentions before , instead of letting her find out in the moment. She would have been pissed yes, but how it went down hurts more and is more humiliating. Assuming it would be better for her not know until then is condescending or if he though it was better for him, then it's just selfish.
That's the point. It just takes more novels to figure that out in the series, which is difficult to establish with the casual audience and reduces the chances of more movies getting green lit.
I love the look of sadness on Paul's face when he comes out of his vision with Jamis. He knows that the only way for the Fremen (and by extension, Chani) to survive is if he consumes the Water of Life, but he knows that doing so will break Chani's heart and he does not yet know if he will be able to regain her trust. He is making a choice that he believes is the right thing for the people he loves but it comes at the cost of causing them great pain.
Hearing the “Love Theme” live on the Hans Zimmer tour was INCREDIBLE!! And the fact that it’s a variation of the actual Atreides theme from the Dune sketchbook album is just *chef’s kiss*
I definitely get why Villeneuve changed Chani and fremen society (regarding women) so much vs the books. The books put verbatim to a movie screen would not play well to modern audiences. It’ll be interesting to see how this wraps back around to line back up with the series for part 3
My favorite character in both films was Paul's mother. She had such a unique story and then if I remember correctly she told Chani that they had 1 thing in common, being the one true love of the duke but never married
I missed seeing the first Dune movie in theaters and deeply regretted it. Made seeing Dune 2 a top priority, and my goodness what an epic spectacle. I am not a book reader, so I can’t make a statement about the quality of the adaptation itself, but these movies are the kind that give me hope for cinema.
its been a lil since i read them but as far as i remember they kept it pretty close. chani and pauls relationship is different (they are ride or die in the book) but i love how they kept jessica to manipulate him into the "great messiah and savior" role also his sister is just as creepily uncanny valley
Same! I watched the 1st on my iPad thinking I wouldn't love it. Then went to see dune 2 at the morning showing the day it came out. It had that "THE MOVIES ARE BACK" feeling that I am so glad I didn't waste on my iPad.
In the books Chani is in for hell or high water. Their first born child is killed in the siege of Sietch Tabr. Alia is already born, has already killed many enemies by age 3 and gives all fremen the heebie jeebies because she speaks like a jaded old granny while sounding like a toddler. The only 3 people who care for her are her mother, Paul, and Harah (Jamis's wife whom Paul received as a war prize when he defeated Jamis in combat). By the time they storm the city Alia is the one to kill the baron with a gum jabar. Now you are caught up 😄
@@whiskybrush3219 What are your thoughts on the film adaptation vs the books? They are different of course, but do you think it serves the story well? (Not looking to argue; just curious what someone who read the books thinks)
It struck me how when he was fighting Feyd Rautha, he consciously put himself between Feyd and her (twice) as one last act of protection. And when Paul was on the floor and Feyd was closer to her and taunted him about it, that's when Paul actually looked scared. When he stood back up he had a look that said if Feyd was going after her, it would be over his dead body.
I honestly can't wait to see how they play with Paul and Chani's relationship in Dune: Messiah. The layers of complexity that will be influenced by Pauls holy war is gonna be insane
Radical determinism also comes to play that broke the relationship from Paul's perspective. Because he has no way out from the prophecy he has placed into carrying it out - as the Chosen One. Chani couldn't bring herself to follow Paul, because he became too different from who he was when first met & Paul's destiny is not what she wants for herself
also paul sees the future and when you can see the future, your believes and behaviour changes, because when you can see what will come to pass, the only thing you can do is let go and finally let your self be carried by destiny. because either you go with the flow or you resist and you are dragged. either way the destination is the same
When the movie came out I saw what felt like a ton of criticism of Zendaya's performance as Chani. To me she was the heart of the movie, nothing works or has any impact without how incredible she was here. Watching their love crescendo and then her slowly start to see Paul for what he is tragically but still willingly becoming is heartbreaking. If Zendaya doesn't get a bunch of nominations for what she did in this movie then the entire system is broken because it is one of the performances of the year for me
When I watched the ending and then having seen the SyFy sequel, "Children of Dune", I'm curious to see how Denis will write the script so that in the 12 years that has passed, Paul and Chani have reconciled. Also to note: With the compressed timeline of Dune, they skip over the fact that Paul & Chani had an infant son that had been massacred when the Harkinan (sp?) stepped up their attacks and destroyed the siech (sp?). Paul then knew that they couldn't continue just being freedom fighters. Not only did they kill his father, Duncan, Huey (even though he betrayed them), they killed his son. He had to escalate to using the nuclear arsenal. Chani, in the books, was in lock-step with Paul's PoV. But make no mistake, he became a villain after he awoke from drinking the Water of Life.
The first pregnancy was why Chani followed Paul in the books. She had a personal investment already and so, like the audience was blind to Paul. It's challenging to draw out a slow fall of a character in film. We all know how audiences reacted to that portrayal with Anakin (who is actually based on Paul). This makes it easier for audiences to go into the 3rd film already questioning Paul's integrity, and understanding the animosity between Chani and Irulan.
I kept waiting for loremaster Alan to point out that this Chani does not reflect the Chani of the books. Chani in the books loves and supports Paul throughout their story. She loves him as a man, not a Messiah, and fights to support his plans for her people as an equal. She's a total badass. She doesn't feel betrayed by his taking a political wife for three reasons: 1. Multiple marriages are normal for Fremin 2. Paul discussed the plan with her beforehand 3. He never consummates the marriage, an arrangement he makes clear to both women. The changes made to Chani are the only problem I have with these movies. It is otherwise an excellent adaptation, beautifully filmed and acted. The original would be a very different couples episode. Open communication, shared ideals and goals, fighting towards a goal together, support and strength. They have their weaknesses, but they are not what is shown here.
I agree with you and I would personally liked to see her closer to her book counterpart (not so much for her as a character, because she's not given much space in the book, but because it also took nuances of the fremen culture, such as polygamy, the good of the tribe is above the good of the individual, etc.) There is an interview where Villenueve says he made this change and other to emphasize more than the book that Paul's "hero journey" is, in infact, a decent to hell paved with good intentions. And I have come to accept the book and the movie as different entities and appreciate them in diferent ways.
I'm fairly new to the Dune fandom (I saw Dune 2 in theaters but fell out of the fandom because of life, but I've recently rewatched the movies and started reading the books and rn I'm deep in the sauce). I was honestly surprised when you posted about it, so I immediately clicked on it and liked it before even watching it lmao
The differences between their relationship in the books and their relationship in the movies are important, and while I know you can only focus on the movies, Chani's motivations and relationship with Paul play out very much the opposite in the books. And I'm not mad about the differences because I don't think either one is "wrong" for their relationship.
I really enjoyed your segment on compatibility and it resonated with me as someone religious who’s marrying someone from a similar yet not always the same religious beliefs, different political beliefs, and different ethnicity. It can be so hard to bridge those gaps and find ways to grow into each others’ spaces, as you put it, but it’s worthwhile when both parties are willing to put in that work. Thank you for all that you do and the wisdom you share.
This breaks my heart so much because I was recently in a relationship with someone I worked with, we were madly in love (had been secretly for about 6 months before we ever talked about it), and then out of nowhere, he said that he needs to leave because he thinks we are sabotaging our careers by being together. He never denied loving me, but he feels that what we are doing professionally was being harmed by our relationship because we weren't as focused. To me, I always felt that our love greatly improved our work because we're musicians and whenever we work together, our natural chemistry comes out. People have been commenting on it for months (way longer than we've been romantic, though it was always there). It absolutely gutted me because I truly do love him, and he deeply loves me, but it's basically this situation. It's not enough to love someone with every fiber of your being. The world has a way of tearing apart even the deepest connections. I miss him everyday.
Without knowing much. This comes off as him making an excuse. If you are mature and love someone, you adapt and can make it work, sounds like he gave up. You deserve someone who will work as hard as you do on the relationship.
I hope you realize the Patreon episode on YT. I like the relationship video but the Fanaticism video would go so hard rn in Americas current landscape.
In the book (and I think it's also present in the movies), Paul's tragedy is that he knows the Jihad is coming, and the only way he could possibly have stopped it would have been to have died in the desert before being accepted into Sietch Tabr. Once he was accepted among the Fremen, he was going to be the symbol - the figurehead around which the uprising centered - either as its leader, or as a martyr. No matter how much he wanted to avoid the slaughter of sixty billion people (some fifteen times the entire population of the world at the time the books were written) and live quietly in the desert with Chani, the Emperor and the Harkonnens could not allow a credible witness to the Imperium's betrayal to live and potentially bring word to the Landsraad. The only way for Paul and Jessica to be safe was to win - and that meant overthrowing the Imperium, and unleashing the Fremen Jihad. When Paul drinks the Water of Life, he finally accepts that there is no other outcome - that his only acceptable option is to accept his role in prophecy.
11:28 - this theme is one of the most powerful ever written. Every time I hear it, I’m filled with a mixture of peace and grief that I can’t explain or give voice to. Hans Zimmer is a master of his craft for a reason.
I have never clicked on a video so fast ever! Currently obsessed with Dune & reading all the books. The books are very different with how they leave off this relationship at the end of the movie. I hope they keep making more movies because book Chani is one of my favorite characters.
Thank you so much for this. And omg the animations in this video had me dying! 😆 As a huge Dune fan, I really appreciate how you both honored the nuance of these characters and also have credit to the actors. They portrayed such subtle and deep emotion throughout this film.
At first I really didnt like, how they changed Chani, but after second viewing of the movie I changed my mind and now I think, it is much better than Chani in the books. It makes more sense and it is more believable and more true to her core, in books their relationship is too simple. But I am really interested, how they do their "reconnecting" in the third movie, it will be a challenge after this ending.
I don't think so. There's plenty that got glossed over in the first 2 movies. Chani is practical enough and if they skipped her first pregnancy and lead off with her second it's an easy fix. The 3rd film still needs to dive more into the Guild , gholas, and Alia. I think this struck a fair balance.
I don't think anyone commented this yet so I just want to add: in the book, Paul also marries someone else, a Fremen women, before he essentially marries Chani as well. The book shows the Fremen culture to be accepting of several marriages. Paul marries this woman because he killed her husband (Jamis), and she asks of him to take care of her children. He accepts and marries her, but it is implied he only loves and shares a bed with Chani, and both Chani and this woman knows and accepts this. So when he decides to marry Irulan, this is just the same reasoning. A marriage without love for practical reasons. Which means Chani accepts it the same way. However, the film erases this part and makes Chani much more proactive, so her blindly accepting Paul marrying Irulan would make no sense in the movie. The point of this is just to remember Jami's wife when comparing the books and the film, regarding Paul and Chani relationship.
Leads to an interesting discussion on marriage ties- are they just to control people in this fictional world? I marry your daughter so you can’t have heirs except through me. I marry you since I killed your husband and his heirs are owed my labor. Chani is supposed to be satisfied since she has his “heart” but obviously this book is written by a man since he has no real interest in the emotional stress and strain this puts on a women and her children by a man who takes no binding oaths for her security
@@frostsong9921 Oh yeah, there is a LOT to discuss about marriages, Chani's character and women in general in Dune! And also another whole discussion about how the Fremen are presented on this issue. But that would take a whole book to get into ^^
What’s sad, and the thing that Villeneuve’s Dune movies don’t really depict, is that Paul sees the end of humanity. Extinction! He is trying SO hard to avoid that future! Yet he can’t bear to do the things that are necessary to prevent that future. Even his choice to become the Mahdi, to become the leader of the Fremen, is not the actual path he must take. There is more required and he is not able to do it. Villeneuve made a bold choice in the end of Dune 2. In the books Chani not only knew he was going to marry Irulan-she’s the one who convinced him to do it! Chani was devoted to Paul to the very end. She knew Irulan would never have Paul’s heart, or body, or soul. All Irulan had was a name, and a crown, and the books she wrote. This is the only change in the adaptation that I had doubts about. If Villeneuve is going to continue, he would have to reconcile Paul and Chani since they have twins! But for just these two movies, it is a powerful choice, I admit. I just don’t know if it’s a choice I can support.
That change is one of the ones made to try to follow Herbert's intent rather than the text, as Herbert himself felt that he failed at presenting the message in Dune as many readers viewed Paul as a hero. We'll see how they go about things in Messiah but the logical assumption is that they will end up together since Paul straight out says that she will come to understand as he's seen it.
@CinemaTherapyShow Thank you for what you are doing, it is awesome and helps me with my personal grow, as many others I imagine. Due to struggling as child, movies were always an escape for me, and thanks to them I was learning about the world and the people. And now they are helping me get to know myself more so I can be there for others too. And you are doing tremendous work bringing their meaning closer to us and guide us through the growth process. Kudos! I hope you will still find joy in what you're doing, so that many more can be helped through this. Greetings from Czechia.
I think a big part that’s missing from this discussion is the aspect of colonization, with Paul essentially being the colonizer. I felt so iffy about whether Paul really loved Chani or if he only “loved” her for personal gain, esp knowing the path he would end up taking no matter what.
Surprisingly the movie gives a new relationship dynamic than the book. I love both iterations but in the book it’s a bit more focused on one point that the movie did not dwell upon. So, in this case I believe both the movie and book bring a different theme with their relationship and I love that. This is one of the few instances I feel that not sticking with the source gave birth to something more than pleasing.
The only reason they are in different places is because they changed it from the book. Paul tells them, Chani and Irulan in front of all of the nobles and the former emperor that he will marry Irulan but his heirs would be Chani’s. There would be no love for Irulan.
The way the movie ended, they can stick that in at anytime...Given that the second movie continues right off from the first, likewise the third can too with that line as an opening. If they drew out Paul's decent as in the book's then the films will never get green lit because the casual audience viewer will lose interest.
I know it's pretty dark, and not a movie, but I would LOVE for you to look at The Penguin! There is so much depth to the characters of the show, and there's so much you could talk about, from Sophia's trauma to Oz's narcissism, but ultimately I'd love you to focus on Oz's relationship with his mother. It's so crazy how it manages to be both tender and toxic, and I want to hear your thoughts on it so bad!
My recollection from the novels was that Chani, Irulan, and Paul were a lot more matter-of-fact about the relationship they were going into. Everyone understood darn well that Paul and Irulan would be officially "married" for purely political purposes, but that Chani as (officially) his concubine was the only one who would have his love. And actually Irulan, being a creature of the political world, was very okay with the relationship and actually very much on board with the plan and supportive of Paul and Chani, never trying to be messy about it. It's been a while since I read them but that's my memory of it.
Yes but they need to show that Paul has faults without a long drawn out Anakin approach...because the casual audience didn't go for that in the Star Wars prequels. Irulan didn't get between Paul and Chani until the Bene Gesserit pressured her into becoming pregnant to capture Paul's genes. She got the poor end of the stick and handled it well, to be honest.
Attempt #(23) of asking for Spirit : Stallion of the Cimarron!! Was my absolute childhood movie growing up and the filmmaking is so beautiful with amazing scores and concepts of loss and staying true to once nature even in the face of adversity!
So weird to me that you've treated their differences as some kind of couple's misunderstanding and completely ignored the point of Dune and Paul's character. The reason Chani leaves Paul in the movie is not because they have different views on freeing her people. He literally makes fanatical personal army out of Fremen, whereas she wanted her people to choose their own future and not to serve anyone. Also he commits mass genocide with the hands of Fremen. That is definitely not what she wanted and hoped for, it's basically a Harkonnen way of dealing with things. There's no redemption, no therapy to help at this point. It's a type of person you need to keep away from power any way possible, whatever "noble" reason he says he has for his actions. Book Chani wasn't like this, she was also completely devoted fanatic, and thus most of the readers missed the point of the book, that Paul is a villain, not a hero. The director made this change to Chani's character specifically to make people understand that Paul's decisions are horrible. But I guess it went over some people's heads still. And marriage to Irulan is just an icing on a cake...
I wouldn't consider Paul as a villain, more like an anti-hero or anti-villain. He unleashes Fremen upon the universe, but not exactly for his own personal gain, bc he just wants to rule the known universe, but bc of the Golden Road as the only way to ensure the survival of human species.
@@tuome1 Sure, if killing 61 billion people during jihad makes Paul and anti-hero, than Hitler is a good guy, I guess XD. Paul is the best illustration of a successfull charismatic cult leader, as Herbert described him, all because he's cute, smart, has superpowers and some kind of future path that no one can see beside him. It's all nice when you read about these people's point of view, but it becomes so much less nice, when it's your family or nation is destroyed by these types of people.
Movies tend to cut and stitch together what audiences will pay to watch. Anakin is actually based squarely on Paul, and the long fall of the anti-hero didn't work for the Star Wars prequels. I doubt casual audiences who are not already familiar with Dune will care to sit through revealing Paul's dark side while he trash talks Irulan with Chani. This was a quick reveal about Paul...per se...after all, he said blatantly in part 1 that he intended to marry Irulan while escaping with Liet-Keynes prior to meeting Chani.
@@tuome1 He was more of a force of nature. Thing that must happen. And thanks to existence of Feyd-Rauta, not acting would realy lead into oblitaration of Fremen as Jono validly pointed out. From some moment, he had no choice where Geserit seed of fanatism would not bloom. And driven by that, he only released them. He did not wished them to commit that mass genocide, but at that moment, there was no stoping them.
I’m currently working on a story. I have four characters where I can imagine their love story and I can imagine their love theme. I know Paul and Chani have different viewpoints at the end of dune 2, but that part where she said maybe you can be freeman or him saying I would very much like to be equal to you, was very touching. I am a sucker for love stories!
The love theme from dune feels soulful and understated, it's not grandiose or over the top in any way. There's also a hint of sadness about it, which makes sense considering the story plays out a bit like a tragedy.
You have to watch "I'm Still Here", I watched it yesterday in the movie theaters and was really impactful. Its a perfect portrait of brazillian history and brazillian culture. From a movie stand point, you guys are gonna love the production, from the psycology standpoint, there is a LOT to unvail, and I would love to hear Jonah's analysis.
Which one though? Personally, I like Whedon's a *lot.* He really brought the right people together and I like some of his direction choices better. Especially the wedding. And omg the MUSIC!!!
I love Dune. The novels and movies . Chani is one of my favorite characters and I love Zendaya’s portrayal of her. Thank you! Could I nominate a really fantastic movie ; Merchant Ivory’s “A Room With A View from 1985/ 86 with the late Julian Sands
If you ever run out of ideas on the next Cinema Therapy episode, how about A Little Princess (1995) movie Alfonso Cuarón, Liam Cunningham? I've always thought it'd be a great material for your show, since it's packed with trauma and tragedy story, yet also some positive way of dealing with hard situations is shown. I'm a big fan of yours and can't wait for the next episode!
The betrayal here is not so much that he goes on a path she doesn't understand or align with, but that HE DOESN'T EVEN TRY to help her understand the bigger picture or the context of his actions. She's not some idiot, he treats her like she is and breaches the trust between them because he didn't honor her. That's a major mismatch between them. It's why love is empty without honesty, intimacy, and trust.
Guys, I would love to see you watching “About time”! It’s my favorite romance movie and they are a healthy couple! But the movie is so much more than that! Talks about family, grief and changing perspective of how to see life.
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Don't promote them! They sell all Data, use Ai and don't help people
@@Jan12700 I don't know about AI, but they do help people and they don't sell data. Please read the results of my research: www.reddit.com/r/cinema_therapy/comments/1dpriql/addressing_the_betterhelp_concerns_headon_deep/
Is accountability more about how you feel not about accounting in factors
@@CinemaTherapyShow They do sell data! They had multiple FTC investigations where they said they do sell all data
As a Turkish citizen I can proudly say that we use the "equal" as wife or husband. Wife says "he is my equal - 'Eş' in Turkish, and the husband says the same for his wife when introducing each other to someone. "To wish be equal to each other" may mean as a proposal in Turkish. So this scene means a lot for us, more than any other.
this is so beautiful than you for sharing
I love that
Wow, thanks for sharing.
And still you have high SA of women in your country. Seems like men don’t believe in this equal concept
So cool
Paul: "Stilgar, what is this behind your ear"? (pulls quarter)
Stilgar: "LISAN AL GAIB!!!"
This is a tragic love story done so right. It's two people deciding to not be together because they're both serving something bigger than both of them. It's not about insecurities or traumas or messed up behavior. Everything is so right between them but it has to break because there are bigger things than their relationship at stake
Except that’s not what happened in the movie. She was given no choice in the movie and they didn’t break up. He chose someone else without saying anything to her. He betrayed her.
@@dsatt57 true.
@@dsatt57 It appears to her that he chose someone else. To him, it's just a political marriage that he must partake in for the plan to work, something that he doesn't take joy in.
@@benwagner5089 Actually, she knew it was a political marriage lol so that his mother talks to her about it later on (books)
@dsatt57 i can't watch Dune 2 because of this. I hated the film. Dune 1, was going up in my top5 list.
I love how Paul starts off inspiring and then the film starts to slowly become foreboding. The audience begins to discover what kind of story this is. In that moment the thin layer of the heroes journey is shattered. The moment where Paul Atredies' true destiny is revealed in all its horrifying glory: A golden path illuminated by a universe in flames.
I think the story started with Paul being torn by both his parents’ expectations. At least his father made him feel like he had a choice. I think he always suspected his mom had set him up for something awful tho.
Seeing Chani stand there atop the dunes, brave yet completely heartbroken, as Paul perverts the Fremen’s victory into the beginning of his eternal holy war, as he leaves their love behind to become a god emperor of death, instantly turning liberation into an even greater oppression, all her dreams, personal and political, die at once, and so she takes the only choice left to her: to leave. It is tragically captivating and one of my top three cinema endings of all time.
It sounds pretty when you dress it up like that. It's just a shame it has nothing to do with the book.
@@derek96720 Here we go again. The film is a successful blockbuster and was made with love.
Cry about it.
@@derek96720 welcome to Hollywood adoptions, first time?
I can't help but wonder if FilmPaul took the risk because he had the vision of her standing at his side. Also, if they're going to continue the series, Chani *has* to get back together with Paul because the stories are all about her death and their children.
@Matt42MSG I think the film seems to give the impression that Paul decided ultimately to go south because of his vision of Chani dying to nuclear fire. I think that is supposed to be the future that happens if he tries to use the nukes without going South and getting his full abilities awakened.
Whilst on the topic of Zendaya, I would love to see a cinema therapy for Tashi, Art and Patrick from challengers. Also so excited to watch this dune part 2 is my favourite film of this year so far
I can't imagine a world where they don't do Challengers! It's a sussy masterpiece and my favorite movie of the year!! 🎉
@@GawrshDarnjust got to 15:52 where they show a clip from challengers which is a good sign for it lol
DO IT!!!!
@@AlexanderCrab1 Yes! It's happening and I cannot wait
Pleaseeeee do it!!!🎉
"I'll be with you" vs "I will love you" is an important distinction because he knows he's going to marry Irulan
Yup. Though he did blatantly say he planned to all along while escaping with Liet-Keynes.
I had the privilege of seeing Hans Zimmer's official tour with all his musicians and singers, that love theme is just one dude with a flute and damn. Absolutely recommend the show, it was amazing
Zimmer's music is what *really* got me into the film! (That, and the infrared cameras shooting the Geidi Prime scenes lol)
A video on Cinema Therapy for Dune - as it was written.
LISAN AL GIEB
I was totally waiting for you to mention honesty and open communication! Why didn't Paul just communicate his plans and what he saw and what he feels needs to happen?! Sure, we could argue "She'd never agree or understand" but he didn't even try. When they first got to know each other, they talked about things. Now, he just makes his own choices without her input. Just straight up "I know what's best for you and I'm gonna do it whether you like it or not."
In the books he did exactly that, and she supported him fiercely. I don't understand why they changed it. For more drama? There was plenty of drama already.
@@amandabridget8706My guess is that the non traditional relationship wouldn't have gone well with the more traditionalist American viewpoints.
In the book they did.
@@amandabridget8706because the book doesn't match the current dont need no man girl boss energy.
@@amandabridget8706 I think it was a good decision. for one book Chani was pretty bland, but I think the main reason was, that her viewpoint is needed as contrast. Frank Herbert wrote this book as a warning from charismatic leaders and was surprised when Paul was celebrated as a hero. In the book it's also easy to miss, because the hard turn only takes place on the last few pages and pretty much everyone is on board with it, so having Chani as an oppositional character really helps
That "The Mahdi is too humble to say He is the Mahdi. Even more reason to know He is!" feels like it would have been completely at home in "The Life of Brian." Trying to remember how close LoB got to that line, but it's been too long since I've seen it.
"He's not the Lisan Al-Gaib, he's a very naughty boy!"
I thought the same thing!
“I am not the messiah!”
“HE IS THE MESSIAH!”
Brian: ...I'm not the Messiah! HONESTLY!
Follower: Only the true Messiah denies his divinity!
Brian: What?! Well what sort of chance does that get me?! Alright, I am the Messiah!
All the followers: He is! He is the Messiah!
Brian: Now, f*** off!
(I had to look it up)
My thoughts exactly!🤣🤣🤣
Plus his Mum: "He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!"😅
I love how Paul lies about everything he promised Chani during his prophecy speech. His actions disprove every sweet word: "There is no one in this room who can stand against me! [...] I am Paul Maud'Dib Atrades, Duke of Arakis! The Hand of God by my witness, I am The Voice from the Outer World!" making Chani's heartbreak justified.
It's literally her fault in the movie that he decides to go south and meet with the leaders.
@@derek96720 She told him to go South, he chose to drink the water of life.
@@BatAmerica so what? Him drinking the water of life is literally what allows the Fremen to achieve victory. And him going south was already due to his status as a growing messiah figure, which is exactly why he was pressured to attend the meeting of leaders.
Paul never lied to Chani about what he intended to do in the books. She knows who he is and what his intentions are. This contrived movie antagonism is a gaping plot hole in order to fuel relationship drama, and is part of why the movie fails as an adaptation.
@@derek96720 You're right about book Paul, though the movie version blatently lied about his values when drinking the water of life. If movie Paul said, "Chani if I go South I will have to change to survive." then I would agree with you. The problem is, she was concerned for his safety and he omitted the source of his fear (drinking the water of life). Chani values authenticity and Paul's dishonesty is the ultimate betrayal.
@@derek96720 Frank Herbert himself said he was disappointed that people viewed Paul as heroic figure after the first book, when his intention was that Paul becoming Lisan Al Gaib was a manipulative and ultimately the wrong move, therefore he wrote Dune Messiah to correct it
With this intention in mind, Dennis Villenueve rewrote Chani as a catalyst for the audience to understand, that when Paul chose to become the problematic messiah leader, he is going down a dark path, betraying the promises he made to Chani to not change nor to abuse the prophecy
What’s interesting is that in Dune: Messiah, even though he’s legally married to Irulan, it’s only for political reasons. Chani is technically a concubine but she’s more or less his wife because Paul refuses to have any relationship with Irulan. So far as Paul doesn’t even share a bed with Irulan.
We'll see how they portray that in the next film.
Mirror's his father's relationship with Jessica. She was also technically a concubine, but for all intents and purposes was Leto's wife, and mother to their son. Leto just kept himself unmarried in case a union would benefit their house. Even in the first movie, Leto says to Jessica: "I should have married you". I wonder if that line will come back around in part 3.
Seems like they're setting up a different dynamic between them, given the focus on Chani apparently becoming a wormrider at the end. Seems like they'll give her more power in the relationship than just being a concubine. I haven't read Dune Messiah, but from how they've developed her in the films so far, I don't see her fitting into the role of a "concubine" very well. Certainly not willingly. I can imagine them being portrayed as just sort of distant awkward aquaintances for like the first half of the film or something, with Chani just focusing on leading the Fremen and such, while Paul is being Emperor... maybe they don't even come into contact at all... and then at some point, they meet again, and fall in love again, and essentially have like an affair, etc...
@@AWSVidsJessica was a concubine, the _only_ concubine, the mistress of the palace.
Now in a lot of history kings have kept mistresses, favourites, who have been the true powers at court, not the official wife, the queen, sometimes the queen in the shadows, with the concubine the star of the court.
Chani in the books is the only concubine, the true wife, even if she is locked in a power struggle with both Irulan, and the whole court, who do not think her worthy, tainted.
There are many ways to write this.
@@AWSVids Having read Dune Messiah, you’re right, they’re giving her a way more prominent role than she had either in either the Dune or Dune:Messiah book, they’ll have to change A LOT of that book considering its all stage-play Shakespearean court-drama type conflicts between characters, and Chani is hardly as active a player as in the movies. It’s Irulan who is way more active driving the plot forward. Florence v Zendaya will be an acting performance to watch thats for sure, very excited for it, even if it’ll probably disappoint non-book-readers with how wordy and ‘boring’ it is compared to Dune Part 2’s war epic. Also Chani is pretty much a stalwart believer in the books, she doesn't question Paul's intentions, his Fremenness, his prophecy, there's none of the North-South or skeptic/conservative divide, and honestly it'll make it an even better movie seeing how the writers try to navigate the Messiah adaptation and figuring Chani's more prominent role into it
To me, the original way Chani deals with Paul's marriage is far more interesting. Paul is from a culture where marriage has nothing to do with love. He was raised in a house where his father never married his mother because they may need the marriage option for alliance purposes. Chani even talks to Jessica about it. Jessica warns Chani this could happen. So when it happens, it is not a surprise at all. Chani is supportive of it. She, being from a highly utilitarian warrior culture, sees the utility in it. She just walks up to Irulan and tells her (and I'm paraphrasing) "You get to call him husband, but his heart is mine." like the bad ass she is. Paul backs Chani up on this sentiment. Chani is also well aware that Paul is looking into various futures and has faith that he'll choose the best one he can.
What makes it interesting is it showing how two wildly different cultures can still fit like a glove. Even though they get to their perspectives by different means, the still end up on the same page. Plus it's super interesting because of how different it is from how our culture views marriage. Handling it the way they did in the movie messes up the character a bit. She comes across less confident and utilitarian than the original version. Plus if they go into future books, that reaction will be inconsistent with how she behaves in the next book.
Much of the tragedy of the series comes from Paul choosing what he thinks is the best of the available futures... and it all goes to hell.
Yup. Got rid of that orgy scene to show the open-mindedness of the fremen. I like the film, but Denis nerfed the fremen culture hard in order to have this drama. Far more interesting the way it was written. Far more mature.
I always thought that Denis was saving that line for the 3rd film. It's so hard that it cuts even the reader.
I don’t think Chani felt betrayed by his marriage proposal. More by his desire to rule at all. I think she hoped he was going to dismantle the existing system - not take over. I could totally see her coming back with that awesome line in the next movie when she realizes she’s pregnant. And it would be esp harsh if she’s visibly pregnant and Paul won’t touch Irulan 😬
I re-read Dune (just Dune, not Messiah) recently and my take on Chani here was completely different. It felt like all of her badassery is essentially castrated almost as soon as she gets together with Paul - she goes from being fierce and making her own choices to being always left behind, in the background, in the sietch, because Paul tells her to; she's relegated to the role of nothing more than an obedient wife and mother, and when Paul tells her he wants to marry Irulan, her acceptance is given with sadness and resignation. "He's your husband, but he loves me" is just the way she tries to comfort herself on the advice of Jessica. Herbert, in my opinion, betrays Chani as a character in her own right throughout the first book. She's just a typical "love interest" - cool enough to attract the hero but then god forbid she should challenge or overshadow him in any way. Movie Chani maintains a consistent character in both movies and her love for Paul doesn't erase her personality. Thus space is made for a conflict between her core beliefs and her feelings, which makes her plot line much more interesting, realistic and heartbreaking, while also not making her a victim.
I think people need to keep in mind that Dune Messiah was written solely because too many people thought Paul was amazing. Frank Herbert wanted people to realize that Paul chose to make decisions that led to the deaths of billions. He chose power despite the consequences because he wanted to win, and Chani couldn't support that (the movie version of Chani anyways, book Chani is super different).
The beauty of these films is, no one would mistake this ending as a victory.
That’s completely untrue. Herbert wrote most of messiah before dune was ever printed.
I kindly disagree. It's been a while since I read the book but I thought the reason for Paul to start the holy war was because of the threats from the great houses and the religious fervent Fremans. If he didn't start the war then him and the Fremans would lose freedom to the houses. I don't remember if he was actively seeking power for the sake of power, or more for the protection of those whom he loved, but he did say he couldn't control the situation anymore when he became this god-like figure to the Fremans, and have to keep going.
The big problem for me in the Herbert books is that we're supposed to believe Paul is this bad guy, but we never really see it. Messiah is all court politics and maybe a couple lines of "oh yeah billions of people have died due to Paul's decisions." We never see the Jihad being waged on other planets at Paul's command. We never see him lose control of his own fanatics. In many ways Paul is portrayed as a flawed messiah that is swept up in his prescient knowledge that there is only one path he is "allowed" to take. Paul fights against his "terrible purpose", but no matter what he does he can never seem to avoid it. Paul is a tragic character and a warning against blindly following charismatic leaders because they can very often be captured by their own movement and/or hurt a lot of people.
@@zackattack366 Agreed. I remember reading all the Dune books as a teenager and being swept up with Paul's story. Then after the movies came out I was surprised at how I had missed the criticism of the idea of the "saviour". So I re-read the first book (thinking that maybe it was just me not being a mature enough reader at the time). And okay, now that I know the intended message, I can sort of see it being heavily hinted at, but ultimately Paul still comes across as sympathetic, aspirational, and well-meaning, and his choices come across as correct (or even the only possible choices) under the circumstances he finds himself in. In short, I think Herbert wrote a great book, but he failed at delivering his intended message of criticism.
The slow-mo scene where paul arrives in the south is so badass.
The shots of Paul after his Water of Life trial all have a menacing dreamlike quality to them.
Capital C Cinema
Chani's development is the best change from book to movie.
😂
I agree. Zendaya and Denis brought her to life so beautifully. But I wish they had shown that she understood the decision he made at the end.
I cannot wait to see their dynamic in Dune: Messiah! This is so different from where they leave off at the end of the first book because they made Chani such a more complex character, it will be so interesting to see how they adapt their relationship in part 3…
Edit: changing “better” to “more complex” as comments made me realize those are not equivalent for other people
Nnngh I mean...book Chani is a total badass thooo!
She's a warrior, understands politics, and in Messiah she's the one holding it up for Paul. And let's not even talk about Children! I like movie-Chani, she's cool. Zendaya's acting is great. But I absolutely LOVE book-Chani
@@rjoe3309same! Book Chani is my favorite literary character ever! My guess is that, since there won’t be a Children adaptation, they went for a totally different arc for movie Chani, also because the whole concubine situation could have been easily misunderstood when portrayed in a movie instead of a book. I’m curious to see what they do with her in Messiah!
Better is a pretty dubious claim.
Potential hot take: I love the changes that Denis Villeneuve made from the books. It totally makes sense for him to do so when he's only intending to do the first two books.
As much as I would love to see the entire series be done, I would prefer an animated series for the longevity. There's just so much lore, time jumps, and characters who survive over a ridiculously long time that it would make for a great animated series option. For a movie, though? I have all the respect for Denis Villeneuve and crew.
Great video, guys! Thanks for all that you guys do 😁.
Yeah I don’t love the changes, but I see what Villeneuve was going for.
Movie Chani is much more understandable by an audience with a modern sensibility and I understand why he wouldn’t risk being cancelled for portraying her as the concubine of a “white savior“ when he doesn’t need Paul and Chani to be together for Children of Dune to happen.
An animated series would be awesome though, and could be so much more faithful to the books!
@@valentinagambetti167I'm more disappointed by the cuts to Piter deVries and how glossed over he was.
@@valentinagambetti167people still thought it was a white saviour story even after the changes (even after he made it blatantly obvious but they still didn’t understand).
@ Yeah, no doubts about that, but imagine having the female protagonist/love interest of that white savior openly addressed to as a concubine… people would have gone mad
This is my favorite movie, thank you so much for touching on Paul and Chani's relationship!
You're so welcome! Hope you enjoy it!
I have to say top thanks for seeing the kiss scene through! I was scared you guys were gonna cut just before the music goes nukezimmer. Denis is on my list as one of the top greatest filmmakers of this century, he did something that is deeply hard to pull off which is making a yellow and orange environment look like one of the most beautiful places on earth. I have nothing but respect for his mastering of the marriage between ambient music and ambient filmmaking. A bloody genius!
I think a big problem here is that Paul doesn't communicate. He should have told Chani his intentions before , instead of letting her find out in the moment. She would have been pissed yes, but how it went down hurts more and is more humiliating. Assuming it would be better for her not know until then is condescending or if he though it was better for him, then it's just selfish.
That's the point. It just takes more novels to figure that out in the series, which is difficult to establish with the casual audience and reduces the chances of more movies getting green lit.
@crystalward1444 I know it's the point. Just commenting with the same approach of the video: analysing the relationship.
I love the look of sadness on Paul's face when he comes out of his vision with Jamis. He knows that the only way for the Fremen (and by extension, Chani) to survive is if he consumes the Water of Life, but he knows that doing so will break Chani's heart and he does not yet know if he will be able to regain her trust. He is making a choice that he believes is the right thing for the people he loves but it comes at the cost of causing them great pain.
Honestly yeah, Feyd is too dangerous.
Hearing the “Love Theme” live on the Hans Zimmer tour was INCREDIBLE!! And the fact that it’s a variation of the actual Atreides theme from the Dune sketchbook album is just *chef’s kiss*
I definitely get why Villeneuve changed Chani and fremen society (regarding women) so much vs the books. The books put verbatim to a movie screen would not play well to modern audiences. It’ll be interesting to see how this wraps back around to line back up with the series for part 3
Book of the 60s vs Movie of the 2020s
yeah being a neo Islamic faith based culture might be hard to swallow.
My favorite character in both films was Paul's mother. She had such a unique story and then if I remember correctly she told Chani that they had 1 thing in common, being the one true love of the duke but never married
"While we, Chani, we who carry the name of concubine -- history will call us wives."
I missed seeing the first Dune movie in theaters and deeply regretted it. Made seeing Dune 2 a top priority, and my goodness what an epic spectacle. I am not a book reader, so I can’t make a statement about the quality of the adaptation itself, but these movies are the kind that give me hope for cinema.
its been a lil since i read them but as far as i remember they kept it pretty close. chani and pauls relationship is different (they are ride or die in the book) but i love how they kept jessica to manipulate him into the "great messiah and savior" role
also his sister is just as creepily uncanny valley
Give the books a listen!! (And oh my GOSH the LORE!!)
Same! I watched the 1st on my iPad thinking I wouldn't love it. Then went to see dune 2 at the morning showing the day it came out. It had that "THE MOVIES ARE BACK" feeling that I am so glad I didn't waste on my iPad.
In the books Chani is in for hell or high water. Their first born child is killed in the siege of Sietch Tabr. Alia is already born, has already killed many enemies by age 3 and gives all fremen the heebie jeebies because she speaks like a jaded old granny while sounding like a toddler. The only 3 people who care for her are her mother, Paul, and Harah (Jamis's wife whom Paul received as a war prize when he defeated Jamis in combat).
By the time they storm the city Alia is the one to kill the baron with a gum jabar.
Now you are caught up 😄
@@whiskybrush3219 What are your thoughts on the film adaptation vs the books? They are different of course, but do you think it serves the story well? (Not looking to argue; just curious what someone who read the books thinks)
Posted "16 seconds ago"
Dune content
Never clicked so fast
I can't believe you talked about love themes and DIDN'T mention Will and Elizabeth (which btw would be a great Movie Couples Therapy episode)
this movie was what IMAX was created for
Seeing this move opening night on IMAX and hearing that theme song on and off for nearly three hours moved me to tears it was so beautiful.
It struck me how when he was fighting Feyd Rautha, he consciously put himself between Feyd and her (twice) as one last act of protection. And when Paul was on the floor and Feyd was closer to her and taunted him about it, that's when Paul actually looked scared. When he stood back up he had a look that said if Feyd was going after her, it would be over his dead body.
I honestly can't wait to see how they play with Paul and Chani's relationship in Dune: Messiah. The layers of complexity that will be influenced by Pauls holy war is gonna be insane
Radical determinism also comes to play that broke the relationship from Paul's perspective. Because he has no way out from the prophecy he has placed into carrying it out - as the Chosen One.
Chani couldn't bring herself to follow Paul, because he became too different from who he was when first met & Paul's destiny is not what she wants for herself
On the topic of Anakin: it was meant to NOT be sweet on his side. It's supposed to show he's been dreaming about and obsessing over her.
Yeah he was a total creep. It honestly made no sense that she fell for him in my opinion.
It's just the intro I'm already crying, partly because of what Jono's saying, but also Hans Zimmer, you musical genius!
also paul sees the future and when you can see the future, your believes and behaviour changes, because when you can see what will come to pass, the only thing you can do is let go and finally let your self be carried by destiny. because either you go with the flow or you resist and you are dragged. either way the destination is the same
When the movie came out I saw what felt like a ton of criticism of Zendaya's performance as Chani. To me she was the heart of the movie, nothing works or has any impact without how incredible she was here. Watching their love crescendo and then her slowly start to see Paul for what he is tragically but still willingly becoming is heartbreaking. If Zendaya doesn't get a bunch of nominations for what she did in this movie then the entire system is broken because it is one of the performances of the year for me
Oh gosh I recall my heart breaking for Chani
When I watched the ending and then having seen the SyFy sequel, "Children of Dune", I'm curious to see how Denis will write the script so that in the 12 years that has passed, Paul and Chani have reconciled.
Also to note: With the compressed timeline of Dune, they skip over the fact that Paul & Chani had an infant son that had been massacred when the Harkinan (sp?) stepped up their attacks and destroyed the siech (sp?). Paul then knew that they couldn't continue just being freedom fighters. Not only did they kill his father, Duncan, Huey (even though he betrayed them), they killed his son. He had to escalate to using the nuclear arsenal. Chani, in the books, was in lock-step with Paul's PoV. But make no mistake, he became a villain after he awoke from drinking the Water of Life.
The first pregnancy was why Chani followed Paul in the books. She had a personal investment already and so, like the audience was blind to Paul. It's challenging to draw out a slow fall of a character in film. We all know how audiences reacted to that portrayal with Anakin (who is actually based on Paul). This makes it easier for audiences to go into the 3rd film already questioning Paul's integrity, and understanding the animosity between Chani and Irulan.
I kept waiting for loremaster Alan to point out that this Chani does not reflect the Chani of the books. Chani in the books loves and supports Paul throughout their story. She loves him as a man, not a Messiah, and fights to support his plans for her people as an equal. She's a total badass. She doesn't feel betrayed by his taking a political wife for three reasons: 1. Multiple marriages are normal for Fremin 2. Paul discussed the plan with her beforehand 3. He never consummates the marriage, an arrangement he makes clear to both women. The changes made to Chani are the only problem I have with these movies. It is otherwise an excellent adaptation, beautifully filmed and acted.
The original would be a very different couples episode. Open communication, shared ideals and goals, fighting towards a goal together, support and strength. They have their weaknesses, but they are not what is shown here.
I agree with you and I would personally liked to see her closer to her book counterpart (not so much for her as a character, because she's not given much space in the book, but because it also took nuances of the fremen culture, such as polygamy, the good of the tribe is above the good of the individual, etc.) There is an interview where Villenueve says he made this change and other to emphasize more than the book that Paul's "hero journey" is, in infact, a decent to hell paved with good intentions. And I have come to accept the book and the movie as different entities and appreciate them in diferent ways.
I'm fairly new to the Dune fandom (I saw Dune 2 in theaters but fell out of the fandom because of life, but I've recently rewatched the movies and started reading the books and rn I'm deep in the sauce). I was honestly surprised when you posted about it, so I immediately clicked on it and liked it before even watching it lmao
The differences between their relationship in the books and their relationship in the movies are important, and while I know you can only focus on the movies, Chani's motivations and relationship with Paul play out very much the opposite in the books. And I'm not mad about the differences because I don't think either one is "wrong" for their relationship.
I really enjoyed your segment on compatibility and it resonated with me as someone religious who’s marrying someone from a similar yet not always the same religious beliefs, different political beliefs, and different ethnicity. It can be so hard to bridge those gaps and find ways to grow into each others’ spaces, as you put it, but it’s worthwhile when both parties are willing to put in that work. Thank you for all that you do and the wisdom you share.
This breaks my heart so much because I was recently in a relationship with someone I worked with, we were madly in love (had been secretly for about 6 months before we ever talked about it), and then out of nowhere, he said that he needs to leave because he thinks we are sabotaging our careers by being together. He never denied loving me, but he feels that what we are doing professionally was being harmed by our relationship because we weren't as focused. To me, I always felt that our love greatly improved our work because we're musicians and whenever we work together, our natural chemistry comes out. People have been commenting on it for months (way longer than we've been romantic, though it was always there). It absolutely gutted me because I truly do love him, and he deeply loves me, but it's basically this situation. It's not enough to love someone with every fiber of your being. The world has a way of tearing apart even the deepest connections. I miss him everyday.
thats a shame, sounded like he got cold feet but not in a malice way.
Without knowing much. This comes off as him making an excuse. If you are mature and love someone, you adapt and can make it work, sounds like he gave up.
You deserve someone who will work as hard as you do on the relationship.
I hope you realize the Patreon episode on YT. I like the relationship video but the Fanaticism video would go so hard rn in Americas current landscape.
Maybe post a preview? It’d be pretty spicy…
Can you guys do an Analysis on *"The Penguin!"* They have a lot of amazing and interesting characters that you guys would love to analyse
Expanse first if TV. Marco Inaros needs… discussion.
This is actually the first time that I understand why they do what they do. Thanks for clearing that up 😅
In the book (and I think it's also present in the movies), Paul's tragedy is that he knows the Jihad is coming, and the only way he could possibly have stopped it would have been to have died in the desert before being accepted into Sietch Tabr. Once he was accepted among the Fremen, he was going to be the symbol - the figurehead around which the uprising centered - either as its leader, or as a martyr. No matter how much he wanted to avoid the slaughter of sixty billion people (some fifteen times the entire population of the world at the time the books were written) and live quietly in the desert with Chani, the Emperor and the Harkonnens could not allow a credible witness to the Imperium's betrayal to live and potentially bring word to the Landsraad. The only way for Paul and Jessica to be safe was to win - and that meant overthrowing the Imperium, and unleashing the Fremen Jihad.
When Paul drinks the Water of Life, he finally accepts that there is no other outcome - that his only acceptable option is to accept his role in prophecy.
Petition to include a scene of Jonathan giving Paul and Chani therapy in Dune: Messiah
The couch at 24:19 😂
You guys should definitely do a movie couples’ counseling video on The Last Five Years!
11:28 - this theme is one of the most powerful ever written. Every time I hear it, I’m filled with a mixture of peace and grief that I can’t explain or give voice to. Hans Zimmer is a master of his craft for a reason.
I have never clicked on a video so fast ever! Currently obsessed with Dune & reading all the books. The books are very different with how they leave off this relationship at the end of the movie. I hope they keep making more movies because book Chani is one of my favorite characters.
"also he noticed that chani looks like zendaya" 😂
the braveheart love theme is still one of my favorits
Thank you so much for this. And omg the animations in this video had me dying! 😆
As a huge Dune fan, I really appreciate how you both honored the nuance of these characters and also have credit to the actors. They portrayed such subtle and deep emotion throughout this film.
At first I really didnt like, how they changed Chani, but after second viewing of the movie I changed my mind and now I think, it is much better than Chani in the books. It makes more sense and it is more believable and more true to her core, in books their relationship is too simple. But I am really interested, how they do their "reconnecting" in the third movie, it will be a challenge after this ending.
I don't think so. There's plenty that got glossed over in the first 2 movies. Chani is practical enough and if they skipped her first pregnancy and lead off with her second it's an easy fix. The 3rd film still needs to dive more into the Guild , gholas, and Alia. I think this struck a fair balance.
I've been waiting for this one for a long time! Thanks guys!
You're so welcome!
I don't think anyone commented this yet so I just want to add: in the book, Paul also marries someone else, a Fremen women, before he essentially marries Chani as well. The book shows the Fremen culture to be accepting of several marriages. Paul marries this woman because he killed her husband (Jamis), and she asks of him to take care of her children. He accepts and marries her, but it is implied he only loves and shares a bed with Chani, and both Chani and this woman knows and accepts this. So when he decides to marry Irulan, this is just the same reasoning. A marriage without love for practical reasons. Which means Chani accepts it the same way. However, the film erases this part and makes Chani much more proactive, so her blindly accepting Paul marrying Irulan would make no sense in the movie. The point of this is just to remember Jami's wife when comparing the books and the film, regarding Paul and Chani relationship.
Leads to an interesting discussion on marriage ties- are they just to control people in this fictional world? I marry your daughter so you can’t have heirs except through me. I marry you since I killed your husband and his heirs are owed my labor. Chani is supposed to be satisfied since she has his “heart” but obviously this book is written by a man since he has no real interest in the emotional stress and strain this puts on a women and her children by a man who takes no binding oaths for her security
@@frostsong9921 Oh yeah, there is a LOT to discuss about marriages, Chani's character and women in general in Dune! And also another whole discussion about how the Fremen are presented on this issue. But that would take a whole book to get into ^^
What’s sad, and the thing that Villeneuve’s Dune movies don’t really depict, is that Paul sees the end of humanity. Extinction! He is trying SO hard to avoid that future! Yet he can’t bear to do the things that are necessary to prevent that future. Even his choice to become the Mahdi, to become the leader of the Fremen, is not the actual path he must take. There is more required and he is not able to do it. Villeneuve made a bold choice in the end of Dune 2. In the books Chani not only knew he was going to marry Irulan-she’s the one who convinced him to do it! Chani was devoted to Paul to the very end. She knew Irulan would never have Paul’s heart, or body, or soul. All Irulan had was a name, and a crown, and the books she wrote. This is the only change in the adaptation that I had doubts about. If Villeneuve is going to continue, he would have to reconcile Paul and Chani since they have twins! But for just these two movies, it is a powerful choice, I admit. I just don’t know if it’s a choice I can support.
That change is one of the ones made to try to follow Herbert's intent rather than the text, as Herbert himself felt that he failed at presenting the message in Dune as many readers viewed Paul as a hero. We'll see how they go about things in Messiah but the logical assumption is that they will end up together since Paul straight out says that she will come to understand as he's seen it.
So many people; "Book Chani was Ride or Die!"
Me; "So was Eva Braun".
You forgot to mention the romantic flight from how to train your dragon in the all time best romantic themes!
We gush about it in our HTTYD episodes!
Please tell me there is going to be a Psychology of a Villan for
Feyd-Rautha Harkonnen.
Oh yes please!
Do it, do it, do it!
@CinemaTherapyShow Thank you for what you are doing, it is awesome and helps me with my personal grow, as many others I imagine. Due to struggling as child, movies were always an escape for me, and thanks to them I was learning about the world and the people. And now they are helping me get to know myself more so I can be there for others too. And you are doing tremendous work bringing their meaning closer to us and guide us through the growth process. Kudos! I hope you will still find joy in what you're doing, so that many more can be helped through this. Greetings from Czechia.
Possibly the best movie of the year!
This is one of the best movie scores of all time found myself listening to it when I was studying and when I was by myself
I’ve been avoiding watching these movies partly because I don’t like book Chani very much, but this makes me think I would like movie Chani.
11:26 it's so sad you forgot "Can you feel the love tonight" it's so powerful and ful of this young love vibe
Love to hear the breakdown of the book version of their relationship. I find those relationships so interesting.
Ryan Reynolds would 100% do a Deadpool Couple's Therapy. Someone find him.
(The couple being Deadpool and Wolverine)
Can you do Analysis of Surf Up, especialy part at him at the begining where they don't consider his feeling and dreams
I think a big part that’s missing from this discussion is the aspect of colonization, with Paul essentially being the colonizer. I felt so iffy about whether Paul really loved Chani or if he only “loved” her for personal gain, esp knowing the path he would end up taking no matter what.
You guys should react to A Wild Robot, i cried so alan will be bawling. good times. anyway, love the channel!!! keep doing amazing!!
Surprisingly the movie gives a new relationship dynamic than the book. I love both iterations but in the book it’s a bit more focused on one point that the movie did not dwell upon.
So, in this case I believe both the movie and book bring a different theme with their relationship and I love that. This is one of the few instances I feel that not sticking with the source gave birth to something more than pleasing.
I love to hear y'all take on her reaction in the book because it so different then the movie
just saw the first act of arcane S2, i need the therapy 🤣
The only reason they are in different places is because they changed it from the book. Paul tells them, Chani and Irulan in front of all of the nobles and the former emperor that he will marry Irulan but his heirs would be Chani’s. There would be no love for Irulan.
The way the movie ended, they can stick that in at anytime...Given that the second movie continues right off from the first, likewise the third can too with that line as an opening. If they drew out Paul's decent as in the book's then the films will never get green lit because the casual audience viewer will lose interest.
One of the best videos ever. Its educational value is unparalled.
It's that duduk that makes that music cut into your soul. It'll do it every time.
Transformers One next? Optimus and Megatron’s downfall would be great to be analyzed.
I know it's pretty dark, and not a movie, but I would LOVE for you to look at The Penguin! There is so much depth to the characters of the show, and there's so much you could talk about, from Sophia's trauma to Oz's narcissism, but ultimately I'd love you to focus on Oz's relationship with his mother. It's so crazy how it manages to be both tender and toxic, and I want to hear your thoughts on it so bad!
Please do Couples therapy for Castlevania’s Dracula & Lisa!
Props to the editor. I loved the inclusion of the Dean clip from Community. Super funny 😂
My recollection from the novels was that Chani, Irulan, and Paul were a lot more matter-of-fact about the relationship they were going into. Everyone understood darn well that Paul and Irulan would be officially "married" for purely political purposes, but that Chani as (officially) his concubine was the only one who would have his love. And actually Irulan, being a creature of the political world, was very okay with the relationship and actually very much on board with the plan and supportive of Paul and Chani, never trying to be messy about it.
It's been a while since I read them but that's my memory of it.
Yes but they need to show that Paul has faults without a long drawn out Anakin approach...because the casual audience didn't go for that in the Star Wars prequels. Irulan didn't get between Paul and Chani until the Bene Gesserit pressured her into becoming pregnant to capture Paul's genes. She got the poor end of the stick and handled it well, to be honest.
Irulan never trying to be messy - also Irulan, adding contraceptives into Chanis food as good Bene Geserit witch.
I don’t know if I’m first or not, but I don’t care. I’m just glad there’s another episode. Love you guys!
Attempt #(23) of asking for Spirit : Stallion of the Cimarron!! Was my absolute childhood movie growing up and the filmmaking is so beautiful with amazing scores and concepts of loss and staying true to once nature even in the face of adversity!
Scrolled through comments for 10 minutes to second this
The funniest thing happened… you said “Your brain is broken~” and then an add played and 0.2 seconds after said “You cracked the case” 😂😂🤣🤣
So weird to me that you've treated their differences as some kind of couple's misunderstanding and completely ignored the point of Dune and Paul's character.
The reason Chani leaves Paul in the movie is not because they have different views on freeing her people. He literally makes fanatical personal army out of Fremen, whereas she wanted her people to choose their own future and not to serve anyone. Also he commits mass genocide with the hands of Fremen. That is definitely not what she wanted and hoped for, it's basically a Harkonnen way of dealing with things. There's no redemption, no therapy to help at this point. It's a type of person you need to keep away from power any way possible, whatever "noble" reason he says he has for his actions.
Book Chani wasn't like this, she was also completely devoted fanatic, and thus most of the readers missed the point of the book, that Paul is a villain, not a hero. The director made this change to Chani's character specifically to make people understand that Paul's decisions are horrible. But I guess it went over some people's heads still. And marriage to Irulan is just an icing on a cake...
I wouldn't consider Paul as a villain, more like an anti-hero or anti-villain. He unleashes Fremen upon the universe, but not exactly for his own personal gain, bc he just wants to rule the known universe, but bc of the Golden Road as the only way to ensure the survival of human species.
@@tuome1 Sure, if killing 61 billion people during jihad makes Paul and anti-hero, than Hitler is a good guy, I guess XD.
Paul is the best illustration of a successfull charismatic cult leader, as Herbert described him, all because he's cute, smart, has superpowers and some kind of future path that no one can see beside him.
It's all nice when you read about these people's point of view, but it becomes so much less nice, when it's your family or nation is destroyed by these types of people.
Movies tend to cut and stitch together what audiences will pay to watch. Anakin is actually based squarely on Paul, and the long fall of the anti-hero didn't work for the Star Wars prequels. I doubt casual audiences who are not already familiar with Dune will care to sit through revealing Paul's dark side while he trash talks Irulan with Chani. This was a quick reveal about Paul...per se...after all, he said blatantly in part 1 that he intended to marry Irulan while escaping with Liet-Keynes prior to meeting Chani.
@@tuome1 He was more of a force of nature. Thing that must happen. And thanks to existence of Feyd-Rauta, not acting would realy lead into oblitaration of Fremen as Jono validly pointed out. From some moment, he had no choice where Geserit seed of fanatism would not bloom. And driven by that, he only released them. He did not wished them to commit that mass genocide, but at that moment, there was no stoping them.
Speaking about love themes, my thoughts went to Braveheart and Gladiator.
I’m currently working on a story. I have four characters where I can imagine their love story and I can imagine their love theme. I know Paul and Chani have different viewpoints at the end of dune 2, but that part where she said maybe you can be freeman or him saying I would very much like to be equal to you, was very touching. I am a sucker for love stories!
The love theme from dune feels soulful and understated, it's not grandiose or over the top in any way. There's also a hint of sadness about it, which makes sense considering the story plays out a bit like a tragedy.
You have to watch "I'm Still Here", I watched it yesterday in the movie theaters and was really impactful. Its a perfect portrait of brazillian history and brazillian culture. From a movie stand point, you guys are gonna love the production, from the psycology standpoint, there is a LOT to unvail, and I would love to hear Jonah's analysis.
Saw this movie in theaters, it was crazy. Y'all should react to much ado about nothing next!
Which one though?
Personally, I like Whedon's a *lot.* He really brought the right people together and I like some of his direction choices better. Especially the wedding. And omg the MUSIC!!!
Good call!
I love Dune. The novels and movies . Chani is one of my favorite characters and I love Zendaya’s portrayal of her.
Thank you!
Could I nominate a really fantastic movie ; Merchant Ivory’s “A Room With A View from 1985/ 86 with the late Julian Sands
Sandworms: Even we have our moments.
Oh my goodness! I never came in so early. Thank you gentlemen.
Hope you enjoy the video!
If you ever run out of ideas on the next Cinema Therapy episode, how about A Little Princess (1995) movie Alfonso Cuarón, Liam Cunningham? I've always thought it'd be a great material for your show, since it's packed with trauma and tragedy story, yet also some positive way of dealing with hard situations is shown. I'm a big fan of yours and can't wait for the next episode!
The betrayal here is not so much that he goes on a path she doesn't understand or align with, but that HE DOESN'T EVEN TRY to help her understand the bigger picture or the context of his actions. She's not some idiot, he treats her like she is and breaches the trust between them because he didn't honor her. That's a major mismatch between them. It's why love is empty without honesty, intimacy, and trust.
Guys, I would love to see you watching “About time”! It’s my favorite romance movie and they are a healthy couple! But the movie is so much more than that! Talks about family, grief and changing perspective of how to see life.