The Morality of The Pitt | What to do in a World of Limited Choice
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- Опубліковано 17 тра 2024
- Fallout 3's The Pitt DLC takes the Lone Wanderer to the irradiated ruins of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And it's here that you find the region is nothing more than a cesspit of savagry and chaos. Despite this, using some abhorant methods, some have attempted to bring order back to the region. It's through playing this DLC that the Lone Wanderer eventually must make a decision that will shape The Pitt forever. This video will go over the moral implications behind this decision and explain why exactly The Pitt will never have a happy ending.
Real quick, again, this video is not intended to defend the actions of any parties in The Pitt DLC. It's meant to merely show that everyone in it is quite awful. Unfortunately, it would seem that there is no good ending for The Pitt.
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No matter what you choose, people suffer. I tend to roleplay morally gray characters but always play as a goody two-shoes in FO3. I was not prepared the first time I did this quest. It is the dark stain on my Lone Wanderer’s personal history, one he’ll take to his grave.
I wish more quests were like it in modern Fallout.
Agreed on all fronts; love no win situations in Fallout, and my character's choice in the Pitt disgusted me (and note I didn't specify which I chose because both are f-d up!)
Not that serious chief
@@youtubeistrash2347it is that serious. The whole game you keep doing the perfectly moral thing and save the wasteland and then you play this DLC and the game throws this awful choice at you out of nowhere. It's a moment of brilliance in an otherwise painfully bland game
You can't really be neutral in fallout 3, there's only good or bad choices, it seems to me that stealing and killing good karma characters has a lesser impact in karma if you simply give a couple bottles of purified water to the beggars.
I feel like nobody talks about the real question of "Who the hell would want to stay in the Pitt afterwards?" It doesnt matter as much if either Ashur or the slaves find a cure because the negatives of the Pitt still heavily outweigh the positives. The trogs were far from the only thing making the city uninhabitable. Look how much work went into cleaning just 1 body of water in DC went, I don't think Ashur or the slaves would manage to clean 3 whole rivers that deal up to 2665 rads per second. Even of they do find clean water or large enough areas without radiation in the city, it's still a giant pile of rubble that would need decades worth of reconstruction to be worth living in.
Ignoring the most likely answer of "poor story writing", my head canon is that it's almost cult like. Ashur says he wants to free the slaves eventually but I don't believe that's true. I think he's the type of narcissist to jump through hoops in order to justify his actions to himself. The Pitt isn't worth staying in and there's nothing stopping them from moving to a better location, but in the Pitt, ashur is king. He uses slave labor because no one is insane enough to try and turn irradiated rubble into gold and he's brainwashed his soldiers with the promise of a better future.
Why do beduins live in the desert? Or why inuits live in the arctic
@@Futureguitarist15 i dont agree, everything we judge him by is 20 years prior to having a whole ass child. Yeah you can try and point him calling the slaves workers instead and his convos about that to help your point, but he even says that he kills the raiders that are too harsh on slaves. Raiders are barely free too, everyone is essentially a slave in their own right. Workers make ammo and gear, the Raiders take that gear and go into the city or other places to raid/ repopulate in the sense of enslaving, find supplies, etc. The only person who isnt a slave in a technical sense, is ashur himself and even then he's willing to risk in some manner his daughters wellbeing for a cure for everyone. Just because they're careful as can be, doesn't mean theres no risk.
@@overtxmeExactly, Ashur is willing to stay in the Pitt, with his wife Sandra, and neither of them are immune to the TDC . Have his baby experimented on , and stay in the Pitt. All for the good of the rest of the population of the Pitt. Workers and guards alike.
Not only is Ashur more honest with the player than Wernher, but he has actively made things gradually better for the slaves. Plus, I wasn't about to kidnap an infant from loving parents with a plan to safely develop a cure from her antibodies. I sided with Ashur because he's better for the long term stability of the region.
These “loving parents” are barbarians that kidnap and make people slaves. They’re on the same level of evil as the Pharaoh from Exodus. While they live in comfort(well mostly, in a ruined building) the Pitt slaves are dying from disease, being overworked to death(Ashur allows this), and being thrown to the Troggs. Ashur and his slavers are not good in the present and definitely not good for the long run. As for Wernher, obviously we don’t trust him but if he does become nuts, the Lone Wanderer can take him down no problem.
Lmao cope slaver
So you plan to side with a man whose done nothing but cause pain and misery for the past two decades? He hasn’t made life better for the slaves he’s the reason they’re in The Pitt to begin with.
How did he make life better for the people of Rockopolis? His Raiders destroyed the town and shipped the survivors off The Pitt.
It doesn’t matter that Werner is a jerk or a liar. That doesn’t diminished the plight of the slaves.
I’m sure plenty of despots were loving parents that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a bullet.
What has Ashur accomplished in two decades?
How does Ashur bring stability when The Pitt is fueled, by Raiders who pillage and enslave surrounding communities. Ashurs group are just an incompetent version of Caesar’s Legion.
Don’t think of it as kidnapping thinking it as rescuing and orphan.
And Ashur isn’t honest he just lies to himself, that some how his atrocities are justified and that the end will make it all worth while.
@@keeperofnecronomicon
Whoa my reply is gone. Ah whatever. Anyway I agree with your text. Ashurs raiders are bad in the present and in the long run. These “loving parents” are barbarians. I know it’s just a game but it’s a bit disturbing that some people in this comment section are excusing Ashurs methods.
@@Steel-101 My saying is, "I'm not kidnapping a child, I'm saving an orphan."
As a Pittsburgh native, this DLC made me really happy. I always find it interesting how they managed to properly capture the look of Pittsburgh. All that orange, red, and smog-y grey colors in the sky, the ashen ground, and the way the place always looks abandoned and rundown... Spot on. For once, Bethesda, Bethes-DID it...
Also, as a bit of a side note, (I KNOW it was a retcon), does anyone else wonder if Lyons and Ashur encountered any remnants of Hellcat company's actions and residence there back during the events of 76's Pitt expansion?
while i personally doubt that there is any remnant of the hellcats my personal headcanon is that the talon company gunners and PL smugglers are descendants of the hellcats
What is your opinion of Pittsburghs depiction in The Last of Us part 1?
@@topblokehere6579 I haven't played it, so I can't say. Sorry.
@@wayneigoe6722 all good.
I think that the events of the Pitt expedition showcase how futile the efforts are to save the Pitt. They couldn’t do it 25/28 years after the war, and they are still struggling to do it 200 years after the war. Even with the functioning steel industry, it is littered with Trogs, savage raiders, industrial pollutants and malfunctioning robots.
i swear you had the option to eat the baby, fuckin mandela effect...
No it's just a popular mod
Cannibal perk plus “killable children” mod i think
You really think a mainstream game made by post Morrowind Bethesda would've ever given you that option?
The only way you can eat the baby is with a certain mod.
There are two evils in the Pitt, Ashur knows what hes doing is wrong but he works to "better" the Pitt. Werner is just a raider whos mad his first attempt at the throne failed so hes doing it again. Ashur comes off as the lesser evil, its not by much but Werner would either be the exact same or worse then Ashur
People will defend the BoS and say they just had to genocide like 80% of the population there but also ignore the conditions of the environment and the massive power vacuum they just created. Ashur was left for dead and a product of the BoS philosophy.
The BoS made for the possibility of stability in the region, stripped it of technology & able bodied persons and, left without establishing any form of regional government/hierarchy. Ashur, the strongest, most intelligent and understanding of hierarchy & command structure, comes in and becomes the regional hegemonic power. To try and argue that society in the Pitt should be more established and nice like other areas of the wasteland while also ignoring the toxic pollution that makes it impossible to grow food or even have children. The Pitt being what it is after 22 years is impressive for all it is.
Ashur's rulling strategy is straight out of The Prince by Machiavelli. Considering he's former BoS, there's a decent likelihood he read it and understood its practical applications in the environment of Post War America. It is the kindness of cruelty that establishes order and allows for growth. Fucked up 100%, but theres a reason for it and the Pitt makes it so turning the dial to 11 is the only way you're going to get anything out of it in the long term. Things only go to shit in The Pitt when a force of nature, The Lone Wanderer, gets involved. That alone makes Ashur better suited to lead than One Eye Wonder Fuck any day of the week. He also makes that narcissistic ponce Sallow look even more pompus despite accomplishing far less.
Ashur has one point going for him on his whole "believe me I'll free the slaves" plan, in that he already DOES with gladiator pits. Assuming you take him at face value that "workers need to work and soldiers need to fight and scrounge or we all die" then his gladiator plan allows the slaves to move up to the role they are better suited for as a soldier. Its a brutal way to reallocate resources to their better uses, but it does indicate he is indeed actually trying to implement a system that allows the most people to benefit. Once the issue of trog disease is cured, its likely he really would just free them all. We have to take his word that people that go overboard in their mistreatment of the slaves really are punished, but its not like its contradicted by people. Assuming its true though, then the workers will suddenly be free people, and the soldiers are going to need someone to care for their now viable young while they scavenge and fight. Dissolving the chains of slavery then becomes beneficial to his plan, because soldiers will be incentived to protect the workers to protect their young, and the workers can rely on the soldiers not to abuse them or they risk their children. The transition will be a bit hard, but the rule through force hes been pushing should be enough to keep it working long enough for the natural symbiotic system to form.
Issues against it, it still requires taking him at his word. There will be a lot of resentment even if he does free slaves for having had them in slavery in the first place. The soldiers too, especially former raiders, are likely to not improve their views or behavior towards workers just cause they're "free" now. And theres a very easy trap Ashur can fall into of "I'll free them SOON but not YET, a few more babies" or whatever that just risks the system continues as is. Especially if someone deposes him between cure is made and freeing the slaves, or immediately after freeing them but everyone is still used to the idea.
Honestly, I'd have liked to see an option from the DLC to use science or medical skills to develop the cure safely, to then put Ashur on the spot. Then either he frees the slaves as he said, or proves everyone else right. Or even a revolt if he does as the raiders decide they wont be "equal to slaves" or something
A lot of despots claim they're making lives better for their people, and the thing to keep in mind is. Would his Raiders go along with freeing the slaves, they clearly see nothing wrong with the current system. They love it. Seems far more likely they'd overthrow Ashur if he tried to free the slaves.
@keeperofnecronomicon I actually completely agree. That's why I said the last part of I think a scenario where you put him "on the spot" would be something I wanted to see. One of the issues with a lot of Despots is that they may 100% believe in what they're doing, and things might objectively be better under them than any other scenario. But the nature of that power draws in people that want to abuse it even if that particular person could be the "benevolent dictator". A scenario where he has to "put up or shut up" followed by showing the consequences of the lack of morality/brutality he benefited from to get there and it's threats to his finally accomplished goals would be a better story.
I forget the name of his former lieutenant, but having him be named the leader of the revolting raiders after freeing the slaves would probably be the narratively best option especially. Having him espousing "freedom for slaves" while he was out of power, only to turn right back into leading the slaving raiders once he got back his power would go a long way to highlight the same thing they tried with the "now that were free he just sits around and drinks all day" point they made if you side with the slaves
Ashur was always upfront with his plan, he's honest to the player and admires the player when they are honest. He tries his best to better the lives of the slaves and plans to share the cure to them once it happens and frees all the slaves. I sided with Ashur because it's better for The Pitt long-term, and because I just couldn't kidnapp an innocent baby from loving parents who have a plan to safely develop a guaranteed cure from natural immunity. What Ashur is doing is a necessary evil for a future good that is guaranteed.
In two decades what has he accomplished except destroying communities in order to feed The Pitt with supplies and slaves. How is destroying one’s home and kidnapping them slavery improving their lives.
He didn’t improve the lives of slaves he made them slaves to begin with.
And for what all the Pitt does is produce weapons to supply raiders so they can acquire supplies and slaves to feed the Pitt.
Caesars Legion may have been brutal slaving conquers but they at least accomplished something in two decades.
Reminds me of that old adage about how sometimes in life you have to break a few eggs to make an omelet.
People forget the nukes basically sent us back to before kingdoms were built aaaand those civilizations weren't built with puppies and kittens. Ashur treats them better than most real world rulers ha
Also setting up the Pitt and returning it to its former glory would have long lasting effects all throughout the wastes, possibly leading to not only no forced work in the Pitt but all throughout the wastes. A functioning steel mill would be a huge W for everyone in post apocalypse america
He tries his best to better their lives? He condones them fighting to the death for a chance to earn their freedom. As if owning and using slaves to further his empire wasn't bad enough lol they could have just left the Pitt instead of trying to live in a place that's too inhospitable without sacrificing other human lives. He's delusional trying to justify his actions by saying he doesn't like slavery and wants to free them eventually.
I don’t think slavery is a “necessary evil” there others ways this could’ve been done without slavery
Yeah the slave owning weapons dealer Ashur who runs a gladiator pit and makes his slaves fight to the death is totally gonna free all the slaves after he makes a cure. He’s just gonna give up all his power? And all the slavers that are there are also going to do the same? Very Naive
They at least have a better framework for a new civilization after the virus is cured. Forming a slave revolution, then still having the TDC virus ravaging people, only to form the same structure as Ashur, is retarded. If you want to give the people of the Pitt the best chance, you side with Ashur, knowing that eventually he will be deposed.
Always nice to see a story about the home town. Them Brotherhood guys are jags though.
amazing vid as usual! :D always love watching ur content :')
Real world example of this dilema: Decolonisation. Would it be better to proceed slowly at the cost of people's freedom, or is it better to grant them freedom now and suffer the consequences?
One thing that people in the comments don't seem to talk about is *how* this theoretical plan of Ashur would actually pan out in terms of freeing the slaves. Would the people that became enslaved and abused actually work for the new society, even with the cure injected. Most of the slaves probably wouldn't want to continue working under Ashur's society, thus making another labor shortage in a new way. So how would Ashur get new workers to come to a still heavily polluted and radioactive ruined city? Especially with the news of the Pitt's former slavery spreading, definitely turning away a lot of people.
@tinaherr3856 I think the video said something about the slaves/"workers" becoming soldiers, which means a slave can/would work for ashur after becoming a soldier, I don't think the video said how they become soldiers though but I assume it's probably based on how much they can handle themselves fighting or something. But because they can and do become soldiers, it means they probably would work for the new society. But all truthfully, until we're told the true outcome... It's unknown. (Although I think if they saw that ashur was honest with his plan and seen that there was a cure, maybe they'd have more hope and still work aswell.) but still we won't truly know until we're told the true outcomes. either way, crazy.
Exactly. There's no way he just frees the slaves. He can't.
The moment Ashur tries to free the slaves, his underlings will turn on him.
N_orte , a genuine good and measured ,thoughtful assessment on the overall situation of the Pitt. And the way it makes you make what would normally be questionable decisions.
You weighed up and explained the options in the situation very well.
Me I know who I would side with every time. And which leader is the more genuine and lesser of two evils in the long run. F3 is what made me love Fallout in the first place. The Pitt dlc is probably the harshest,most brutal hellscape in the Fallout world. And one of my favourite dlc's ever in Fallout . The Pitt is maybe the harshest environment,apart from the glowing sea. But I also see a kind of dark ,barren ,hostile beauty in the glowing sea. Any other place and time irl. I would never part take in any kind of slavery. But the Pitt is something very different to any real world scenario weve had before.
babe wake up, norte just posted
Whichever option you choose, Maxson probably takes over anyways in between the events of 3 and 4
I'm running a Fallout Pennsylvania Dungeons and Dragons game, so what I did was say Ashur won but Marie overthrew him when she grew up
So.....is she a Raider Boss?
@lazwardazure716 shes pretty much the only positive karma faction
The way I see it, it's a choice between two "definitely will happen" options and two corresponding "maybes".
If you side with Ashur, you're choosing to continue slavery in the Pitt. That definitely will happen, especially since you choosing to help slavers put down a rebellion resulted in the deaths of a whole bunch of enslaved people. The "maybe" here is that maybe, down the line, things might get better for the enslaved people, maybe eventually to the point where there won't be slavery anymore. Who can say for sure, though, since it's entirely possible Marie's immunity to mutation can't be replicated.
If you side with Wernher, you're choosing to end slavery in the Pitt. That definitely will happen, especially since kidnapping Marie puts the future of the Pitt in the hands of the newly emancipated people. The "maybe" here is that maybe the Pitt won't survive as a society, and the people living there might have to give up on the city, since as stated previously, it's entirely possible that Marie's immunity might not be replicable.
Given the fact the choices you are given are "Continue slavery" or "End slavery by kidnapping a baby who won't be harmed beyond the kidnapping", I think there is an objectively morally correct choice, and that choice is to end slavery.
The framing of the Pitt's choice as a parallel to the Trolley Problem is correct, because the Trolley Problem is easily solved when you take the concept of negative choices into account. Your choice in the Trolley Problem isn't between reducing harm and staying uninvolved, as your mere presence in the situation is involvement. The instant you become aware of the possibility of a choice, you are involved in the situation. You are choosing between either one person dying or more than one person dying.
The nature of the DLC "The Pitt" means you are involved from the second you decide to play the DLC. You cannot be uninvolved in the choice, and your choice isn't either allowing slavery or kidnapping a baby, it's either allowing slavery or ending slavery *by* kidnapping a baby.
And before you say you're using the baby as a means to an end rather than viewing it as an end in itself, you are doing so to literally end slavery, which is the ultimate form of viewing people as a means to an end. Ashur is using the entire population of the Pitt as a means to an end, to the point where he's importing enslaved people by the hundreds rather than give up on his dream of somehow turning the Pitt into somewhere livable. He has no plan to end slavery until his cure plan works, meaning he will continue importing enslaved people to replace the enslaved people that died in the horrendous conditions his regime forced them into, possibly forever, since there's no guarantee that Marie's immunity can be replicated.
The choice, then, is simple. One is less than more than one. Using one person as a means to end slavery is better than choosing to continue slavery and allowing hundreds to be used as a means to a nebulous end.
Utilitarian ethics. But isn't Marie being used by the protagonist in the same degree of forced obedience? Not saying you are wrong, but I don't believe morality is as cut and dried as a balance sheet, and it should never be an easy choice to commit evil regardless of possible recompense.🤔
@@johnoglesby-vw7ck You're still committing evil by siding with Ashur, and I'd argue that by both killing (or passively allowing to be killed, as a negative choice is still a choice, and you are actively choosing to not aid the enslaved people) and allowing the continued enslavement of the enslaved people, you are committing more evil than you would commit by kidnapping one child to, at *minimum*, use as a bargaining chip to ensure the freedom of hundreds of enslaved people.
There *is* a lesser of two evils. If the choice was between killing one baby and killing hundreds of people, the choice would be blatantly obvious. But it's instead between allowing slavery to continue by violently suppressing a rebellion (which means the enslaved people who died will need replaced, which means your choice directly caused the enslavement of at least one more person), or kidnapping a baby to use as a bargaining chip to end slavery.
Both choices have bad aspects to them. But one choice is clearly objectively worse than the other. Potentially enslaving one person, or continue the enslavement of hundreds.
@@johnoglesby-vw7ck You're still committing evil by siding with Ashur, and I'd argue that by both unaliving (or passively allowing to be unalived, as a negative choice is still a choice, and you are actively choosing to not aid the enslaved people) and allowing the continued enslavement of the enslaved people, you are committing more evil than you would commit by kidnapping one child to, at *minimum*, use as a bargaining chip to ensure the freedom of hundreds of enslaved people.
There is a lesser of two evils. If the choice was between unaliving one baby and unaliving hundreds of people, the choice would be blatantly obvious. But it's instead between allowing slavery to continue by violently suppressing a rebellion (which means the enslaved people who were unalived will need replaced, which means your choice directly caused the enslavement of at least one more person), or kidnapping a baby to use as a bargaining chip to end slavery.
Both choices have bad aspects to them. But one choice is clearly objectively worse than the other. You're either potentially enslaving one person, or definitely continuing the enslavement of hundreds.
You must commit harm. You should reduce the harm as much as possible. Anyone who says it's more complex than that is letting their emotional responses to having to kidnap a baby get in the way of decision making. Kidnapping one baby is not more evil than allowing the kidnapping and enslavement of hundreds of people. You're just allowing it to get to you more because you're the one that has to do it. Pulling the lever in the Trolley Problem to cause one person to die instead of five isn't worse than not pulling it and allowing five people to die, people just feel like it is because they actively decided on it rather than passively deciding.
You're making a choice either way. You should choose the least amount of harm.
"Won't be harmed beyond the kidnapping." BIG BIG assumption to make, you have no reason to assume that (I certainly didn't), especially given the fact that the person most protective with the baby is gone and one of the two people left with the baby is a manipulative pragmatist. You could easily see things going in an Ellie at the end of 'Last of Us' direction
@@cyberninjazero5659 Fine, then, let's assume the worst case scenario, in that Marie is kept in chains and tortured for the rest of her natural life, and that there's absolutely no way to replicate Marie's immunity, so it's happening for no reason. There's no reason to assume this, because if you talk to Wehrner after the revolt ending, he complains about how the cure would get done faster if the people who were working on it would stop worrying so much about whether or not they're hurting Marie, meaning the people actually watching over her and working to develop the cure do actually care about her wellbeing, but since you're determined to assume the worst of everyone who worked against Ashur, we'll just assume the worst.
You're still committing evil acts by siding with Ashur, and I'd argue that by both unaliving (or passively allowing to be unalived, as a negative choice is still a choice, and you are actively choosing to not aid the enslaved people) and allowing the continued enslavement of the enslaved people, you are committing more evil than you would commit by kidnapping Marie to, at *minimum*, use as a bargaining chip to ensure the freedom of hundreds of enslaved people.
There is a lesser of two evils. If the choice was between unaliving Marie and unaliving hundreds of people, the choice would be blatantly obvious. But it's instead between allowing slavery to continue by violently suppressing a rebellion (which means the enslaved people who were unalived will need replaced, which means your choice directly caused the enslavement of at least one more person), or kidnapping Marie to use as a bargaining chip to end slavery.
Both choices have bad aspects to them. But one choice is clearly objectively worse than the other. With the assumptions we're making for your convenience, you're either enslaving one person, or continuing the enslavement of hundreds, who will need replaced when they perish, which means you'll be responsible for hundreds to thousands of future acts of enslavement, too.
You must commit harm. You should reduce the harm as much as possible. Anyone who says it's more complex than that is letting their emotional responses to having to kidnap Marie get in the way of decision making. Kidnapping Marie is not more evil than allowing the kidnapping and enslavement of hundreds of people. You're just allowing it to get to you more because you're the one that has to do it. Pulling the lever in the Trolley Problem to cause one person to perish instead of five isn't worse than not pulling it and allowing five people to perish, people just feel like it is because they actively decided on it rather than passively deciding.
You're making a choice either way. You should choose the least amount of harm.
The Pitt is too destroyed to truly be fixed, and the only real solution is moving some of the machines out in a outpost of sorts.
Even a smaller scale would be better than a constant loss.
Hell, they could modify other machines from prewar factories outside the Pitt.
I have more opinions but the video and comments cover them pretty well.
Ooooh I've been waiting for this to be covered again!!! Sorry if I cover what N_ort covers in the video but I'm just so excited to have this talk.
I honestly think Ashur is a better option because he has been honest from the get go. Yeah he's a slaver but he is honest with the residents and the player. He offers the "workers" a step up if they prove themselves in the arena. He never rigs the challenge and everyone who participates are volunteers.
Wehrner on the other hand has lied from the beginning. He lied about who he was, his goals, and his allegiance. He doesn't want to eventually free the slaves of the Pitt. He wants to be the new overboss. He will turn the pitt into a permanent slave ring like Paradise Falls.
I support this theory with the fact he tied to overthrow Ashur in the past. He's a manipulator not going beyond having someone kidnap a baby just to ensure his rule over the Pitt.
He will one day remove Madia and possibly hold Marie as a bargaining chip to enforce the slaves to continue to work or they will risk being turned into trogs.
Thank you if you guys/girls read to this point and thanks for coming to my Ted Talk.
The fact he calls them 'workers' when they are in fact slaves proves he's dishonest. He just lies to himself too. What has Ashur accomplished in the two decades he's ruled The Pitt. What has he done other then destroy communities to feed The Pitt.
For me it came down to that with Wernher it feels like their is no light at the end of the tunnel as while things change they have no long term plans and are satisfied with revenge leading to a deeper pitt into hell while with Ashur I at least see a light at the end where things may not change for however many days/ weeks/months/years or more for how long it takes for a cure to be made at least once it made it's more certain that things will change
To me, it always come down to trust. Who do I trust more to make the Pitt and actually good and livable place? I always trusted Ashur more. He is bordering delusional with how he views himself, but I trust him a little bit more when it comes to caring about the Pitt and the slaves. Wernher only ever cares about himself. Still, making that decision has always left me a little conflicted.
That's the worst possible answer
Ashur literally drived everybody into a hell scape
@@mrinsomniac2968
Yes, but with the cost of blood for a period of time, for a paved easier future is ideal. Everything comes at a cost, and so too, can your morality.
No sound minded person would voluntarily choose to move to, and work, in The Pitt. It's the Post-Apocalypse, the luxury of automation is no longer available and if you wish to build a impressionable empire, to whichever ends, it requires sacrifice. Judging that Ashur is the only person with a clear vision of what they want to do in Fallout 3, compared to aimless settlements, that's very promising. He's got the only functioning Steel Mill in the region and a giant metropolis to salvage and build a new with. His civilization can single handled create a market for manufacturing and rebuilding nearby population centers, whilst also creating his own State.
Things are deeper than our first world, comfy reality. We have the luxury to choose if slaves and useful or not. They do not. If you cannot afford to pay workers to lay the foundation of what's to become a new civilizational state, you either use slaves or just don't do anything at all. And frankly, in the world space of Fallout, it's better to do something at all then wallow about contemporary moralities. Wernher will never make the cure, he doesn't even have the intelligence for it. Whereas Ashur and his Wife have a background in just that. The biggest bar of entry to move passed slavery, resides all on creating a cure to use. Because only then, can consensual work be more feasible in such a hellhole that is The Pitt.
Freedom means nothing if you're going to become molerat chow in the Wastes, on your own, anyway. If you were weak enough to be enslaved, you weren't going to make it in the Wastes to begin with. So you may as well be better applied elsewhere instead of a brief wasteful existence.
@@Rexxie44 The City of Rockopolis was destroyed by Slavers so its residents could be sold to The Pitt. If that Steel Mill was really so valuable he could trade with other regions for the things he needs, but he doesn't he supplies and army of raiders
Ashur is not bringing stability to the wasteland he's one of the reasons its unstable to begin with. His goals are lofty but in two decades he's accomplished nothing except bringing suffering, destruction and death to the surrounding wasteland.
Caesar's Legion was brutal but at least they accomplished something.
In my most recent play through, I betrayed and killed everyone, and left the baby.
The best ending
I was walking out of there with Ashur's armor regardless of the moral implications.
Bin the entire karma system and the game becomes so much better ngl
I stand by, I don’t side with the raiders, I side with Ashur 😎
What made it the easiest choice morally for me (thought i found out after siding w asher) was comparing the two cribs. Asher and his wife have a clean area, prioritize their childs safety and well being over the progress and how fast the cure comes. Have proper equipment. Wernher? He has a nasty ass room, and right beside the crib is a tray with a bonesaw and medx. Whatever you think about the slave situation, is it worth putting a baby through that? Come on. They're selfish and solely think about the "greater good" to cope with the fact they're willing to kill a baby for their own individual gain. Just coincidentally, theres more people suffering than not, which is what makes it a moral dilemma for some
What about all the babies who had their parents taken away as slaves? What about the the communities destroyed by Ashur's Raiders? So many of you cry what about "the child" but ignore the obvious fact that Ashur pillaging and enslaving surrounding communities is going to harm MANY children. So whatever you think about the babies situation is it worth putting dozens of other children through something similar?
Or what about the fact that if you ask Wernher "How's research coming on the cure? "
He whines
"It'd go faster if they didn't keep fussing about not hurting the little squirt."
@@keeperofnecronomicon
Yet Wernher does some pretty deplorable shit himself. Aside from effectively lying to you, omitting details...
There's also comments from the slaves implying that things actively got worse if you side with Wernher.
@@keeperofnecronomicon there's a huge difference between what you're saying and what i did though. This is about the players choice, so there's a few things to acknowledge.
1. You make it seem as if a majority or huge portion of slaves in the pitt were former parents, this is a dumb statement for a multitude of reasons.
2. Everything horrible you're thinking of has mostly happened before the baby's birth. He even said his baby being born changed his mentality on running the Pitt. So to judge him for things he did 21 years prior, consider the baby's a year old? Meaning he has only had a year of changing his old plans of methods, and has done quite well?
3. What you just said helped prove my point. Wernher clearly wants the cure asap, doesnt care about the babies wellbeing, only results. So how long is that baby gonna be safe before him and however many slaves get impatient? It'd probably take Ashur a long time to get the cure, i doubt slaves with no known medical knowledge who pick up on someone elses work will make the same progress.
4. You come in with no legitimate ties to anyone in the pitt, are a 19 year old child (when you leave vault at least) with a missing/dead father. The lone wanderer is a good karma person canonically, and siding with ashur is also seen as a good karma choice. Does it really make sense for your character to want to take another child from their parent to most likely die anyways? Making it all for nothing?
@@overtxme
1: Doesn't have to be a majority, The Pitt survives by raiding settlements for slaves and supplies. Simple logic states that untold number of children have suffered as a result and will continue to suffer.
2: I will absolutely judge him for his past crimes because he hasn't actually stopped. The Pitt still operates on enslavement and raiding, and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future while Ashur is in charge
3: No it doesn't prove your point. Werhner is not the leader of the slaves Midea is. And once again he whine that the others keep fusing over the kid. So the slaves clearly care about her well being. Furthermore you get the perk. "Booster Shot" regardless of whom you side with so progress is made anyway.
You say the slaves might get impatient. I don't see any evidence that the slaves are evil. And if some do get impatient they now have the freedom to pack up and leave.
I say the moment Ashur tries to free the slaves his men will kill him, his wife and his daughter because none of them believe in his ideals. They believe in the wealth and power he brings them. But the moment he tries to free the slaves they'll turn on him.
4: Siding with Ashur is seen as a good choice by Ashur and his wife. The slaves would certainly disagree.
A Heroic Lone Wanderer will kill Raiders and Slaves up and down the Capital Wasteland. The Lone Wanderer travels to The Pitt to free the slaves. That is the reasoning given long before you hear about any cure is mentioned.
Does it really make sense for good karmic person to side against a population of slaves yearning for freedom?
Would your heroic LW sit back and let Ashur sack Megaton or Rivet City? Like they did Rockopolis years back. If the Lone Wanderer is willing to support Ashur they can't really oppose him raiding other settlements.
Its why I say, "I'm not kidnapping a child, I'm rescuing and orphan." My goal coming to The Pitt was to wipe out a Raider gang and free a population of slaves. The slaves want freedom so I'll make sure they get it.
Marie... the cure, secondary objectives. Wiping out Ashur and his Raider gang makes the wasteland safer.
I wonder if marie is also a cure to many of the other mutations going on in the wasteland? Like in the other dlc point look out. The swamp people.
Going full scorched earth on it all would be my attempt at solving the problems of the Pit. It would either end up with everyone being freed from the shackles that is Life, or it would end up with me being put in a shallow grave. :3
I sided with Ashur because I'm from the Captial Wasteland, and the slaves being free and able to leave and spread the disease is the worst-case scenario
Something of note, at the start of the DLC tou are asked to procure slave cloths. Theres are 2 ways to go about it: Kill the slavers and free the slaves, or buy some and let them go. While not directly relevant. I think its a good syart to the dlc as it is essentially the whole question but in a much smaller and more immediate situation
In my opinion The Pitt is the best Fallout DLC in the franchise. It has the same feeling as the Sierra Madre. The ruins of Pittsburgh look so creepy and the pollution is insane in there. Also Ashur is a terrifying villain. He has charisma and yet he’s so brutal. Plus I always scream: “Ashur let my people go!!”. Hey I couldn’t resist a good 10 Commandments reference. Lol 😂. Anyway I always defeat Ashur and the raiders.
Off topic but I can’t wait to see dudes in power armor doing fortnite dances in a week
Are they putting fallout in Fortnite
@@Bruh-be3lh yeah kinda sad but was a matter of time
@@connerpollitt3661 I mean for them business wise it’s a good idea cause they get money through the skin being in the game
@@connerpollitt3661i see this as an absolute win
Youve got to be fucking kidding me
I cannot imagine anyone picking someone other than ashur if they've been paying attention.
As a true follower of the Brotherhood of Steel through Fallout 1, 2 and Tactics, I found no better idea than to execute the bastard traitor Ashur as it was done with Gomorrin before.
Besides nobody should be in chains even because of a single child. The oathe I swore as the honorary NCR ranger in F2.
And I also liked the Warner "welcoming into the real world" speech sentence.
Hail the Brotherhood! Down with the traitors to the cause!
Is the first DLC applied to do for that game
Asher is possibly the most morally gray of any fallout franchise character in my opinion as he will do whatever it takes to rebuild civilization and he recognizes the need for change but he will do it his way and overall he understands that there us such a thing as needed evil.he even lets the slaves prove themselves and climb ranks something say the legion would not do.he also knows that eventually the old worlds technology will run dry and that there needs to be new ideas and incorporate medical and social ideas that will withstand long after he is dead and gone.even the conversations you have with him focus on what is to come and the bigger picture overall he isn’t nice but you need to understand this is the wasteland not a fucking civil world and even with his power he try’s to be civilized even to those he doesn’t like compare that with most other factions and you really start to understand he wants a better world although he needs order to get there and if you push your luck or are jot seen as useful beyond labor i think it’s perfectly logical he would put otherwise wastes of life to work as they get food water and shelter and although not ideal they can actually prove themselves.its all utilitarian and i agree with it given the context of both the wastelands and humanity as a whole.
Fallout 76 trogs are so op, I like how they went back to the pitt on 76 too!, one of my favorite DLCs
What is the song in the Background?
Something I’ve always wanted an answer for, why doesn’t ashur get robots and decontamination equipment instead of “workers”?
for the robots answer ashur and his wife are the only 2 who have enough technical knowledge to maybe do something with robotics and then probably not enough to repurpose them. as for decontamination just breathing there is degrading them over time and they consume food and water and as stated makes newborns come out mutated for it
@@michaelburke6556 perhaps, but at the same time if you can teach the rejects at Big town how to use robots I think you should be able to help the “workers” with automation.
Though now that I think about it didn’t Eli Whitney have similar logic? Although proper automation would be enough to start freeing the “workers”. As opposed to Whitney who just got plantation “workers” to do more work in a different part of the plantation…
Look the point is it really irritates me that Bethesda didn’t bring up the idea in the pitt dlc because it seems like an obvious dialog option.
@@changvasejarik62 in big town you do the repair and reprogramming and then the people of big town are left to maintenance them, it's not stated one way or the other if big town is taught how to reprogram them too. to be honest bethesda needs to make explanative lore on programing knowledge and difficulty in fallout because it's clear they write certain plotlines on who can and can't do reprogramming and how hard is it with robots in the universe. I know ashur wasn't a scribe so he'll be limited but his wife deinitely knows how to fully reprogram her computer but then what do you need for a protectron? same skill level as computers or somewhat/significantly more?
love the pitt
love the video
love booze, too
have a great weekend, everyone _!!_
At first i did side with the slaves but after wards i always tended to side with ashur. I dont think ashur is super evil, he was always honest and tries his best to make the best of the worst situation. I see him as a chaotic good character who does bad to make things better. Not only that but siding with ashur and sandra is probably the best outcome for a cure. Former brotherhood and actual scientist vs former raider and slave.
I sided with neither Wernher nor Ashur but another secret third faction. The Brotherhood of Steel. Time for a second Scourge.
In my headcanon Fallout 3, places like the Pitt aren't just 'evil'. They're indirect tools for a bigger project; The Enclave's 'rebuilding of america'. Vault dwellers serve as the main 'pure-breed' humans, where they draw soldiers and scientists from, the brass live in places like Tenpenny Tower, and the wastelanders' slave labour serves to build the Enclave's military/industrial capability. Warlords like Ashur, Eulogy or Talon Company all seem 'independent', but only exist to further the bigger goal...
sure. and lemme guess, you serve god and there is no free will. heard it a million times before. go do what they tell you and be quiet.
@@nevermindmeijustinjectedaw9988 lol It's just a videogame headcanon. Relax, commie.
Its a dumb theory but literally what are you smoking? What does anything you say have to do with what they said? @@nevermindmeijustinjectedaw9988
it's the most basic philosophy and statistics. just tell me where i'm wrong and which non-god entity you believe in and we can get the same discussion going again as i always have to.
You can eat the baby instead so nobody wins
Only with mods
@@user-gt4gs5xu6s option still stands
Norte in the morning!
ashur did have a point once he explains himself and plans to share the cure and get rid of using slaves altogether later on. werner and his men would have most likely killed marie and no cure would be found and he cared little for freeing the slaves. siding with ashur is the best future for the pit.
What do you mean "Werner and his men"? Werner had no men, his only forces were the Lone Wanderer and the slaves revolting. All of the raiders were on Ashur's side, and were overthrown/killed if you sided with the slaves.
@@tinaherr3856 plus, what the heck do they mean by he'd just kill Marie. Marie was a crucial part of his plan, why would he kill her
@@VicDScott I seriously don't know what this person is on about. Even if they only half-remembered the dlc from a long time ago, this video already gave a full recap of what happens.
This whole dlc felt like I was in a basement
I am just here for the Metalblaster, anyone and anything else I couldn't care less.
Is anyone else having the problem falling through the roof? I believe it's after going a bit higher after finding bill. After all this time, I haven't ever experienced that until maybe a few months ago lol.
Yea it’s a bug just close your game out and open it back up it should fix it
Honestly in my opinion Asher may be naive in his thinking or not quite understanding exactly what's going on because it seems that almost every child wore in the pit starts out not so mutated but that doesn't mean he's entirely in the wrong maybe his daughter does actually have full mutation free genes but my in the end thinking is Asher may be a raider but he has good intentions if some sort of outside group with a lot of power that's also working for the good I do not doubt that Asher would be willing to change if they needed a compromise in my tabletop RPG sessions we had a group of meat Asher a powerful group that demanded that if they were to buy steel from the pit then they would require Asher to make his slaves into actual workers let them choose to be soldiers workers give them actual not wages but pay them in safety food clothing weapons homes let them choose to stake a claim turn the many buildings of Pittsburgh into homes and if they do that this group will not only buy the steel from them but they would also help in their efforts of fixing their home
It’s certainly depressing area for me, as far as atmosphere goes. I think I’ve only played it twice.
My head cannon is that the lone wanderer smuggles maria out of the pit and askes amata for one final favor
Lw: amata, i know you hate me now but i need your help
Amata: you have alot of nerve coming here and asking anything of me
Lw: none of that matters! i need this baby to stay here and have a good life, a chance to learn, to grow, to make friends to belong please amata if not for me atleast for the child.
Amata: *sigh* fine give her here
,i will make sure her life here is good now leave and never come back!
Lw: thank you amata, i wont forget this
Amata: GO!
Years later maria and amata are like mother and daughter.
Amata was such a jerk at the end, even if the LW was a saint.
I always go with Ashur, even if his way of ruling Pitt arent that much better or successful at doing anything, but dude was honest (and he got left behind in that godforsaken place in the first place).
Wernher on the other hand lies first time he meets us, and at the end still gives 0 fucks. If he was honest and said "get me this baby" i would be more tolerable to his bs. And Midea isnt much better either.
Like i get it, life is hard, be more helpful and honest about the job or accept the fate (maybe even a third option could be found idk). Big Towners had more chatacter to them, and thats a Big Town im talking about.
Opinions aside, it was done very well as a whole DLC: it was written as "grey zone" of choices, which is appreciated since base game and few other DLCs have straight good/bad story choices. I guess i like both New Vegas interconnected and Fallout 3 individual/separate type of DLC stories.
Or i just kill everyone because im sometimes bored of both endings
I genuinely remember being able to eat the baby...
Option 3. Eat it.
Fallout 3s DLCs slapped
Arm Pitt
The brilliance of the story is how it plays off of the social conditioning all Americans experience regarding “slavery” and our poor understanding of its historical context.
Ashur is the lesser of two evils, but I believe he has the Pitts future in mind.
Pillaging and Enslaving surrounding communities in-order to make weapons to supply Raiders who will go out pillaging and enslaving surrounding communities is the lesser of two evils?
I sided with Ashur
Option 3: download mods
Norte!
I side with Ashur. Kidnapping a child, even though it's a game, is far too evil, even for me. And I love being evil in Fallout.
I am singularly impressed by your concern for kidnapping a child. But what about all the children who had their parents kidnapped and forced into slavery in the Steel Mill. You aren't kidnapping a child. You're rescuing an orphan.
Lmao kidnapping a kid is more evil than being a slave owner where you kidnap kids and keep them for their entire lives.
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter
The main problem with Werner is that he has no long term goal beyond "Make Ashur Pay."
He says something about making a cure from Marie, but seriously, what expertise does he have in synthesizing a cure that's more educated than what her mother is doing?
Nevermind the fact that he couldn't actually care less about the slaves. He's not ashamed, nor does he feel guilty for helping enslave those people. He's just sorry he got kicked out.
You think its impossible that out of the hundreds of people kidnapped into slavery they couldn't included a doctor. Or that they couldn't recruit a doctor to some and do work on the cure.
@keeperofnecronomicon, didn't you yourself say in other comment said that who would want live in Pit voluntary?
19:19 yeah it's a brainer 😂 I would want to live under the leader who doesn't care about me... But doesn't want to enslave me. Over the "nice" guy who want too. I would always pick finding my own food over getting beat, abuse, & sa everyday.
“Who do you prefer? The one that takes your bread in the name of freedom, or the one that takes your freedom to guarantee your bread” Albert Gamus
Why do people even trust ashur in the first place, have you guys NOT SEEN WHAT HE HAS DONE
He genuinely doesn't have the pitts future in mind nor is he compotent enough to even keep it going
The horrors that are witness in there is horrible
Because they naively thing that a despot can't possibly be lying to themselves. That they deluded themselves that every horrible thing they do will all be justified in the end. I'm sure Ashur has told himself for two decades. "I'll free the slaves soon, not much longer now."
I chose Ashur because I'm from the Captial Wasteland, and the slaves being free and being able to leave and spread the disease is the worst case scenario
@@cyberninjazero5659 They can't spread the disease, its not contagious, or even an actual disease. Its caused by the unique combination of radiation and toxins native to The Pitt.
The Trog Syndrome is no more contagious then Ghoulafication.
Honestly if you side with the slaves you can see that they don’t care about the baby and Wernher doesn’t care either and honestly the the slaves are unorganized so I sided with Ashur.
I am singularly impressed by your concern for the life of a child. Do you have any concern for the lives of children who had their homes destroyed and their parents carried off as slaves to be worked to death in the Steel Mill.
@@keeperofnecronomiconwell there really is no moral way around the Pitt in the end people suffer this is what I did in my first play through.
@@user-qr3so8yz4c If you end The Pitt Raiders people outside The Pitt will suffer less. Furthermore after Wernher gives you the "Booster Shot" perk the fruits of the cure research progress they've made so far. He whines "It'd go faster if they didn't keep fussing about not hurting the little squirt."
Proving that while Wernher may not care, the slaves do.
When both sides are evil side with whoever is actually competent, is my view.
Though if the fallout 4 modders finish the Pitt I’d like an option to negotiate with ashur for better treatment if you become his lieutenant. Alternatively a radiant quest where you get more medical supplies, robots, and real food the keep the “workers” in better conditions.
@@changvasejarik62 how are the slaves evil?
With mods you can eat the baby. 🥩🍽🍽🍽
One baby is an acceptable sacrifice for the end of slavery
Even if it your son or daughter? And, remember, the infant has no choice...
@johnoglesby-vw7ck why not blame Asher for making the conditions were inevitably the baby would be targeted.
@@andyggjhjkl Agreed it is a messed up situation, and slavery is never justified; not sure child sacrifice is acceptable either
@@johnoglesby-vw7ck he could simply stop enslaving people
Me: "Oh yeah. Hated that place and Ashur. Surely people can tell he's a terrible person and that siding with him is wrong"
IKKRRR why the fuck do people even trust him in doing something even right
I always side with Ashur, he’s a dick but more honest than Werner.
People suffer regardless of choices made here. However, Ashur is the only one with an actual vision and PLAN. Traditionally, throughout human history, whenever an oppressed group or outright slaves are free they tend to lead themselves to complete and utter annihilation, or, at the best, object poverty because none of them actually know anything about the greater world around them or how to do things on a grand scale (creating civilization in this case). It takes them generations to actually build themselves up again, and many times they don't even make it that far. The slaves here have no vision, no grand schemes, no knowledge or even a remote idea about civilization building. Any sane individual thinking about the problem logically would give the slaves a year or less before they're starved out or overrun by troggs with no cure even close to being made. Meanwhile Ashur's all but guaranteed to see his vision come to fruition. Its beginnings might be bloody and cruel, but eventually the Pitt would be a gleaming beacon in the wastes that honor the man as a hero generations down the line. Meanwhile by freeing the slaves you're just feeding the troggs down the line as nothing even remotely points to them being able to survive for any meaningful amount of time.
Loli Knight defending slavery is so fucking funny. I love the fallout community
i chose asher mostly because his wife is an actual doctor who has a bigger chance to curing the trog vrius compared to warner who just wants the baby for self gain
Man almost forgot the Pitt. Messed with me hard. Ultimately I could not kidnap Ashurs child. As much as I hate slavery, taking someone's child is not the way to freedom. Slave revolt sure, but not this underhanded slight. Plus I saw Warners "lab". Kid would not have survived.
I always side with Ashur, the workers don't understand how good they have compared to the rest of the wastes.
You think the workers have better lives then people living in Megaton? or Rivet City... even The Republic of Dave. Do you think the citizens of Rockopolis were better off having their home destroyed and being sold into slavery in the Steel Mill. The workers all used to have homes outside The Pitt that were destroyed and they were shipped off as slaves.
Ashur is one of the reasons the rest of the wasteland is so terrible.
The slaves did not have it good at all
are you on crack? they are slaves.
Out of all the "I do horrible things for the greater good" villains Fallout has had, Ashur is probably the best one.
I’m with Ashur- he doesn’t like what he has to do but realizes that if he wasn’t in charge it be way way more worse than what it’s been
I always start the pit with murderous intent, get instantly knocked out by a lead pipe with no save despite being in power armor, and uninstall fallout 3 because the dlc is shit.
hmmm4_4 Goood show kinda nice