The idea is that you’ll also have other stores, such as Steam, Epic, and GOG. Instead of building a locked-down box and monetising it via licensing, they’ll make an open box which is basically a reference design for a living-room gaming PC with console experience. That console experience will have the Xbox store and GamePass integrated, but not require them. They are one of the biggest publishers in the world now, so they’ll make money selling games on all platforms and storefronts. I expect they’ll pitch their hardware as being for GamePass subscribers who want to play locally, with a medium and high graphics tier option. That’s basically the role a Microsoft-branded box would serve.
Microsoft should create a Windows sku dedicated for gaming. Like Windows 11 Xbox Edition which has console interface with desktop apps running similar to windows 8 metro apps which only runs on fullscreen to make it more console like experience. And also allows user to switch from game mode to desktop mode.
Much better option would be to introduce proper game mode to all Windows SKUs which would launch either stripped down Windows kernel optimized for gaming or a separate modified gaming kernel while pushing the main desktop UI to standby efficiency/sleep mode in order to take as few resources as possible. In this mode u could either continue with the desktop UI or Xbox like UI targeted for gaming controllers like gamepads. There's definitely a way and technology for doing it right, however Windows isn't Linux and PC isn't surely a Steam Deck, meaning that M$ execution isn't always state of the art especially since they shifted their focus almost completely on the Azure cloud and everything else was more less secondary.
That's what I want for my Legion Go, game mode OS like the Xbox and desktop mode for when I'm done playing games,if Microsoft can bring that for the upcoming Handheld I don't think people need to install Bazzite on the Legion Go.
I'd buy it straight away if it had an Xbox OS and a Windows desktop mode so we can have the best of both worlds. Like a Steam Deck but Microsoft version.
The reason the Steam Deck is so good is because it DOESN'T run a Microsoft operating system. Heck even many users of the windows based handhelds are migrating those systems to Linux based ones.
@@pixeljauntvr7774The Xbox runs a Microsoft operating system and it works just peachy. Hell, Windows is pretty OK to use when properly debloated. The issue with Windows isn't necessarily Microsoft, it's the complete lack of meaningful competition and constant drive to squeeze out more money (whether actual money or ads/private data) from the user at any cost.
@pixeljauntvr7774 Steam OS isn't good because I own both a Steam Deck and Rog Ally so I know the pros and cons of both. Steam OS isn't compatible anymore with PlayStation games that require PSN, it doesn't play Game Pass natively, it doesn't play games like Cod or any other that has anti cheat, cloud gaming is a nightmare to set up for the majority who aren't tech savvy enough, playing games from Steam can be a fiddle having to mess around with Proton, installing other launchers like Epic Games and GoG can be difficult to set up for those who aren't tech savvy too. None of these are issues on Windows based handhelds. Windows based handhelds issue is Windows isn't stream lined enough for a smaller screen which MS are working on with a compact mode that'll release at some point. So in all, there's far more cons to a Steam Deck than it is a Rog Ally. Steam Deck gets the advantage in installing emulator's, and it's Steam OS that's more compact like a console experience.
@@pixeljauntvr7774The Xbox runs a Microsoft OS? Also, I don’t understand your point. Steam OS, which runs on Linux, is excellent for gaming. However, when you switch to the Linux desktop for other tasks, it’s inferior to Windows. Even attempting to run Xcloud on a Steam Deck is a frustrating experience. If the box boots to Xbox OS but allows users to switch to desktop mode, which is Windows, the overall experience would be the same. Both Linux and Windows are inconvenient without a keyboard and mouse.
Sandboxing Xbox from Windows can work or even dual booting Xbox OS on a Windows PC would ensure the console experience to be consistent but take advantage of the hardware and added benefits of a highend PC.
This guy is 100% not wrong. I think there is a way where it works, though. The Steam Deck does a good job of behaving like a console, but also offering that desktop "do anything" option that you CAN access if you want. But if you never go to desktop mode, if you never mess with folders etc, it works like a console.
@@Sakari-h3s Bad frame rates and gaming prices also expensive on PC it depends on specs and if the games new or not. But overall Consoles is for people who is busy and dont want any hassle (bad port, stuter, un optimize even on powerful GPU, virus, data leak etc)
@@mightyhadi6132 i agree, maybe its cos devs are pushed to do graphical things that consoles cant do? i wish there was options to lower some things in settings... time will tell maybe console will be more like pc in future
_"...and that's why i just stick with consoles mostly, nowadays... i still love pcs but i just want that, all that stuff, to be sorted with a fix spec machine..."_ - Tom's gonna get himself cancelled by the pcmr crowd.
I'd hope that this would lead to developers optimizing things for PC hardware more. Steam Deck lead to some efforts in a few places, which is promising. Steam OS is very different from Windows, of course.
Best thing about steam deck is that you can just run it like a console, you don't ever have to go into desktop mode unless you like to tweak with tech.
likely devs will include xbox optimized profiles for their games similar to steam deck. Which technically you could enable in the INI file in the game folder.
hardware wise is possible to do this hybrid , with DX connect and some dedicated OS memory that works as a cache/buffer, similar on how they do with quick resume on xbox already. This way you always have a standby system ready to pull in and you just need to recoverd the ram of the apps from the ssd which are quite fast nowadays
PC hardware component manufacturers have no financial incentive to sell anything at a loss the way console manufacturers do. Valve's Steam OS push is promising, but they have almost no incentive to consistently produce the best games they can, year over year, the way Nintendo and Sony do. Optimization is a crapshoot on endless configurations, passing the buck to parts producers, software creators, modders and users. Games will always be held back by the lowest common denominator of low spec machines in terms of simulation complexity and production value, especially since PC handhelds are all the rage now.
People just want games to come out consistently and perform well now. Its the game companies insisting on constant progression in fidelity thats holding back games at this point. Graphics have only improved marginally over the past 8 or so years, and the performance hit that raytracing brings isnt justifiable to most people. Thats how the whole "i want shorter games with worse graphics" meme stemmed from.
@@Buddhakingpen Companies aren't insisting on increasing fidelity. What ray-tracing and other technologies like Unreal 5, etc. are for streamlining production (i.e., make development cheaper, thus more profits.) That's why games from a decade ago were better, because today's games are actually cheaper products sold at higher pricetag.
@@davidsentanu7836 huh? theres always been tools for streamlining production pretty much since the inception of 3d modeling. We got to unreal engine 5 because there were 4 other UE's in the past. And i guarantee you that UE 5 is higher fidelity than UE 1. I dont think devs using game engines to create games is exactly ruining games lol.
I believe this could be a positive development. PC gaming has always been about getting the best performance out of your hardware while playing the game your way-whether that's at 120fps, with ray tracing, in 4K, or 1080p. Consoles have traditionally been more about simplicity and convenience, where you just pick up and play. That said, it would be great to see games developed for PC also being optimized for consoles. This could enhance the console and cloud gaming experience significantly. One reason the Xbox 360 was so successful was its excellent online services and its dominance in third-party games. If this initiative brings the store and Xbox platforms closer together, with a unified interface across devices like the ROG Ally and Xbox consoles, it could be very effective. Gaming is evolving, and this generation, as well as the last, hasn't matched the impact of the 360, PS3, and Wii era. I understand the various points being made, but with Steam's presence in the market, Microsoft needs to stay competitive, especially considering the significant investments they've made in studios and with macOS gaining ground. These are certainly interesting times for Microsoft. This development has the potential to be beneficial, much like how Windows Media Center was innovative, even if ahead of its time.
I had been talking about this idea for years. It's easy. Option 1. You can boot into full optimized Xbox or boot into full version of Windows. Option 2. You boot into full optimized Xbox, or a limited version of Windows. Were they will make it harder for pirating than traditional Windows, and have no third party apps you can buy games from like steam/gog etc.
Xbox gets windows, PS6 runs linux. two less consoles/operating systems to develop for, console players get get to play their games flawlessly with the added benefit of using them for other stuff (modding, coding, design, etc.) and all PC players get their experiences improved. A win for everybody(?)
I was under the impression that Xbox used a Hypervisor model? If so they would just drop in a VM for the Windows system. It wouldn't be too hard, I just don't see the point. What feature in Windows does the Xbox need? What feature in the Xbox does Windows PC need?
If an "xbox" had features of a windows machine, you could install steam on your "console". Windows also needs a lot of work on microsofts side to be more gamer friendly. For instance, you want to sit back and game with a controller on your pc, using steam. But then user account control pops up, and you have to get to your mouse and keyboard just to click "ok" before you can use your controller again. Theres a lot of streamlining that could be done for gaming on pc on microsofts end. Steam remedies a lot of the problems, but not everything.
Microsoft already has this exact tech inhouse. Read about Windows 10X. Its architecture is similar to Xbox OS (both use Windows Core OS as a foundation). It wasn't supposed to be Win32 compatible by default, but could run a VM with regular Win32 environment in Hyper-V. It's exactly what you described
I cannot wait for steamos to take off. As soon as a desktop version is officially released I am there day 1. I’ve already been tempted to try Chimera or something else. Can’t wait to leave windows behind
At the end of the day SteamOS 3.x is Arch Linux with a bunch of hand picked optimisations and hand crafted scripts for the Steam Deck specifically with Steam launching by default in -tenfoot mode with gamescope. Under the hood it's Arch with KDE desktop. L Chimera, Bazzite, and CachyOS all recreate the setup for desktop. But if you want to do it yourself with all the Linux optimisations you'll want to install any Linux distro with a decent release schedule (at least twice a year or rolling), install gamescope, feral gamemode, mangohud, a Proton downloader, a Proton Tweaks system, and then have a startup launch program to run 'steam -tenfoot' with or without gamescope. You could even set the PC to automatically log into a given account on boot. So you'd have the console-like experience of pressing the power button and it starts into a full screen Steam overlay with all the tweaks ready to go
Xbox PC handheld with a cutdown W11 mode to get access to Steam, Epic games store, etc... would be the ultimate version. That way the portable Xbox can play PlayStation games.
I don't know whether Windows 11 will be suitable for this. To be running on a next generation Xbox and a handheld? I have a Rog Ally and running Windows 11 really doesn't work well.
Keep it simple ability to uncap the frame rate. A set internal resolution say 1080p and your choice of upscaler be it FSR 3 or I would prefer dlss because it's simply the best. We don't want to have to worry about drivers
I don’t understand why MS can’t just release Xbox OS to be installed on a pc. Architecture is the same. Then users can just download and play Xbox games on their pc (without streaming) or reboot back into windows for pc tasks. Best of both worlds.
Xbox os is just trimmed down windows. And there isn’t any benefit or performance to be gained by using the xbox os. They really perform the same. That’s why more developers are able to squeeze more out of the ps5 compared to xbox because it’s not windows
@ Xbox os is lighter and utilized hyperV to sandbox games and dedicate hardware resources to them. I think having something like that on the pc, that could play Xbox games (not pc ports) would be a benefit. I’m imaging basically running a game directly on hardware with only needed host components rather than the entire windows OS. And that’s basically what Xbox os is at the end of the day. PlayStation OS is the same just using BSD as a base and custom api’s, though I think they utilize vulkan for rendering.
@@BulkybearOG the only benefit is not getting interrupted by windows updates. You can already do all that on pc by closing all other apps, and setting to prioritise the game .exe process in the system monitor. And voila, absolutely no performance gain at all.
I dislike all those different modes for console games for a simmilar reason. Some games have double digit itterations to choose and typically not all run well (if any at all). So before you want to game you have to watch reviews to know which settings to choose. And then you have to wait for the next 100gb update... I found myself sometimes turning the console back off because the joy to play was gone before i got to the playing of a game.
If Valve is doing something similar, then Microsoft/Xbox has no chance to succeed. A lot more people have their games on Steam then on microsoft bad store, so they will definetly go with Valve SteamOS system on evry HW.
Dunno fam, depends on feature sets. Steam OS sucked so hard I fought with them two weeks to return my Limited Edition OLED to get a Legion Go because I don't want to be fiddling with bonkers amounts of stuff like Proton GE, Lutris, etc. I did more finagling and guides than I did game playing. For Steam Verified titles it was like legitimately magic and often times by utilizing Vulkan eliminated garbage like stutter in FF7 Remake. Heroic etc allowed other storefronts which was great. But the fact remains the process of doing.. anything outside of what Valve's team accomplished in compatibility was a straight up nightmare.
@@Kevdawg207you should just get a mac dude. Jeez all the complaining it’s not even that hard. And you literally don’t have to use lutris. Steam can run ea app, GOG, battlenet, and even cracked games.
@@Kevdawg207I've definitely had some issues with Steam OS. But I think a lot of the issues with the deck is the weaker hardware as well. My ROG Ally is awesome, and running big pictuee mode gives me the Steam OS feel with the Windows compatibility. Hopefully Valve continues to advance PC gaming on Linux so we don't have to depend so much on Microsoft.
they can do it. Any games' optimisation can positively affect the experience on Windows if they de-windify it to be optimised for gaming, which in general is going to get peak performance, PCs fly these days. This could benefit Windows overall (desktop, laptop, mini PCs, handhelds). But first, they must take it seriously, if not Valve is going to take over
How much more do they need to "de-windify" it? They already have gamemoade, DX12, and direct storage. It's not even like they need a stripped down version for peak game performance, Windows is designed to provide good performance already. I just can't see them directing a giant amount of engineering work to do that when it isn't entirely needed. The only significant deviation from the current version of Windows 11 would be to make a controller friendly UI system and a simplified xbox front end. That will be very large and complicated project but I don't see the need for them to dramatically strip down Windows, unless I'm not understanding what you're saying.
@@BasePuma4007DX12 is a mess four years after release, Direct Storage is a crutch that has had limited impact, Feral gamemode is FOSS and thus is available on competing operating systems. There's nothing that W11 offers to gamers that serves as a "killer app". Microsoft rent-seeking and upselling is reaching it's logical end, what's left is a race between consumers patience and FOSS communities ability to survive in an information negative environment.
You already have (sort of) xbox experience on Windows. On xCloud. If they improve it, allow streaming all purchased games, I wouldn't be surprised if nex-gen will be the last-gen. After that series-s-like/handheld for people without good internet and xcloud for full experience.
I've been thinking this very thing. Could Microsoft make the next XBOX a windows machine that by default boots into an XBOX UI? allowing it to also function fully as a windows machine?
Maybe if ms writes completely new OS from linux/unix core. Migratin to ARM cpu would be a chance to do it and have unified os like Apple have. But then backward compatibility would be an issue, resolves by cloud gaming at some extend
I think the "problem-free" experience of a console is an unfulfilled promise. I've had more issues with console games crashing or running badly than I had with games on my PC.
Super simple, just copy PS3 and Steam Deck. Build the console to boot to the console UI, and also allow users to switch to a full desktop OS. Fixed hardware with proper tools eliminates all the problems that crop up with mix/matched PC hardware.
A Microsoft Published game where Microsoft gets 70% of the revenue from the sales of those games on Steam? And there are a lot of people that like gamepass. Not everyone is going to use Steam exclusively.
your logic aint working when people playing xbox made games are a tiny fraction of pc gaming. They need to subsidize by getting a cut on every game sold. Thats why Spencer's plan of opening up to the competition is gonna close the xbox hardware business if it comes to pass. That aint a profitable business idea. @@BasePuma4007
Working with DX12 ln Xbox is quite a different experience than on PC. Memory management, for example: on PC devs need to deal with upload heaps, residency, etc. Don't get me started on PSO compilation. MS needs to coordinate with Nvidia, AMD, and Intel to make DirectX12 on PC a alot better for developers to bridge that gap. (Vulkan has similar issues, BTW)
Minus a disc drive that will play Xbox games, there’s no reason to buy an Xbox minus convenience (which is the point of consoles). For somebody playing PC/PS5, I actually do miss that convenience with game pass. PC gaming is awesome but basically every time you launch a game it’s “update required.”
I want this mythical Xbox Sorted Edition Tom speaks of…lol…where everything works and it has games I enjoy. Do what you must with the OS to achieve this level of consumer satisfaction.
As a gamer with a console PC hooked up to my living room tv, if they launch a game mode in Win11, Microsoft needs to solve 2 major issues: 1) Many core components require mouse and keyboard input in Win11, like updating windows / drivers. Even swapping audio sources like from tv speakers to headphones require mouse and keyboard input (w/o an external app like soundswitch) 2) Suspend / Resume. This is the one thing that constantly pulls me back to the PS5 after I’ve let my eyes be blessed with path traced goodness. Current suspend / resume from sleep on Win11 is average at best, and catastrophic at its worst. If they merge, this should be priority as consoles have this major leg up vs PC
Unless Microsoft makes it possible for UWP Apps / Games to be recognizable to Peripheral Profile Software to assign custom Keybinds I don't see it ever getting any traction with the Players... I tried playing the UWP version of the rebooted DOOM games but couldn't because you can't assign a custom Mouse Binding Profile to UWP Apps / Games to get the most out of your Gaming Experience resulting in you essentially falling back to the default OS Keybindings which in my case are entirely unusable for Gaming as it is centered mostly around Window and Desktop Management. Had to refund the cheaper UWP Store bought version and get it from Steam not plagued by such shenanigans.
What alot of people don't realize the OS for the Series X/S is Windows 11 kernal with a UI on top... So we're already going in this direction and I will say it now the next console will just be a pc with a Console UI on top.
It should basically be the same as Xbox, but with the ability to run PC apps. The key is that it needs to be a standard box, akin to a Mac Pro or a steamdeck. Not windows, but compatible with windows. I'd love a $1000 box with Full PC functionality, and more power than the standard console. 4 times the power and capacity of a PS5 Pro across the board would be sweet. About 64GB of unified memory for applications/games plus 8gb for the OS and background tasks, 4X the CPU and GPU power (would likely mean having 16 cores), etc... And even though that sounds beastly, nowadays it would likely just be enough for native 4k 120fps maxed out when it comes to UE 5.5. Of course this kind of performance for $1000 will not be possible in 2025, but I think it's a nice target down the line.
I do think all they should've done is say. This is our Xbox series X2 and this will be the base gaming experience that we promise to be viable for the next 6 years. On another note you can restart our new 499USD box straight into Win11 and do whatever the hell you want with it. I do think even at the current performance Series X has and its price it would make for a great value PC.
I don't get why they don't release a lightweight gaming os. It could be a dual boot kinda thing, so you can have both and they could even expand their current user base even more, which is already massive. I have no idea how to do it, but for them, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be a quick and easy thing to implement. It's sad to see them not take their head out of their ass.
From my point of view, it's more a case that MIcrosoft has never given a damn about games in the first place. Originally the Xbox was intended to be a Windows Media extender for the living room, and Seamus Blackly kind of went behind Bill Gates back to make a console. The only thing that save his team their jobs was Bill being concerned that Sony was back-dooring a living-room PC into tens of millions of customer's homes via PS2 upgrades Sony was marketing, though ultimately that turned out to be just smoke and mirrors so that Sony could skirt European import taxes on luxury electronics by claiming the PS2 was a PC. Even during the X360 era where Microsoft was on top of their game, there was a schism within Microsoft over whether or not to keep the brand in-house or spin it off into it's own independent company. Lots of people at Microsoft didn't think they had any business in the console or games market. So a move like this isn't something I see Microsoft making out of concern for competing with Sony in the traditional console space. Microsoft doesn't really have an incentive to compete against them. If Sony were to completely blow them out of the water in the console market... Microsoft just loses the console market, which they never really wanted to be in in the first place. Sony is not a real threat to Microsoft. So this move seems to be more in line with their original motivations of wanting to leverage the Xbox brand to protect their Operating System hegemony - and that their real competition is Valve these days, not Sony. Proton is a far greater potential threat to Microsoft than anything Sony has ever produced, and it can't go unanswered. So while it looks like Microsoft has just given up, is opening their platform, and going third party - the reality is that they are simply fighting a much larger battle on an entirely different battlefield. One which is entirely beyond the scope of Sony and the Playstation brand to even enter.
I hope Microsoft makes a handheld Xbox that has PC compatibility. I would love to have access to my Xbox 360 and Xbox One catalog without another dedicated box connected to my tv.
I think they should eliminate the pay to play online for Xbox consoles and then lean into Xbox play anywhere more. Where if you get the game on Xbox, you’ll get it on PC and vice versa. Make an Xbox launcher that works well with hand helds. Eliminating a box they sell with the same specs for everyone would be a mistake
When you look at all of Microsofts gaols across, cloud, mobile, AI and gaming. Microsoft could reduce their entire line of hardware to a tablet base system that has different attachements. Add a keyboard, it's a laptop. Add controllers on the side, its a gaming handheld. Drop it in a custom dock with an eGPU, it's a console or gaming PC. The problem as everyone points out is the reality of Windows vs the theory of what windows should be. Hardware aint the issue. Gaming handhelds exists. Ultra thin laptops exisit. Great mobile and tablet devices exist. What doesn't exist is a version of Windows that's not bloated and has a UI that works well with mouse/keyboard, touch and a controller.
I mean if microsoft can give a $500 console that can run windows, this would be my first time buying an xbox, devs that need to target this hardware in compination with the freedom of installing steam and having cheap games, I'm sold
This is essentially what Xbox should have originally been back in 2001. A fully integrated PC software platform. That would have eliminated the blow to consumers because there never would have been an Xbox console in the first place. Granted, the game industry and the wider consumer market wasn’t ready for all that 20+ years ago. For this to work, Xbox hardware has to die and live on through PC by fusing its software services and ecosystem into the larger PC ecosystem and platform. I truly don’t see a bright future for Xbox hardware anymore though.
If Microsoft can make the XBox capable of running e-mail, Teams and Office webapps I think that would be all MS would want/need. I don't think the console should have a full Windows 11 OS.
There is a reason this should not happen, that is because pc is designed for workflow, being able to regulate clock speeds, and keep temps in check and all that to ensure the best experience with our hardware. A console on the other hand, as I see it, is designed to simply make sure that a game will run on it, with or without all features of said game enabled. Imho consoles have been largely holding back pc gaming creativity because of console restraints and limited hardware. Pcs can have limited hardware too, but its far easier to upgrade a pc than it would be to upgrade a console. All that out of the way, I enjoy my pc gaming as well as console gaming, I hope both work out for the best in the future.
I disagree that games have been held back, if you look on the Steam hardware survey, there’s a significant chunk of PCs with worse specs than modern consoles. I mean I keep laughing at people crying their 1080 can’t play new games
The Series X and PS5 are not holding back PC gaming the way you're describing. That has been the case the last three generations, not today. Roughly 30% of Steam users are still using hardware that is considerably worse than the Series X or PS5 on paper. Reaching the beginning of the end (diminishing returns) of Moores Law means consoles are not as irrelevant and weak compared to the past.
It's incredibly rare that I ever experience crashing on W11 Pro. 24H2. I do run an RTX 4090, but my i9-10920X is a bit old now. I still don't have any issues with crashes. All modern AAA games, all indie games, nothing crashes. W11 Pro is stable. I'm not sure what's wrong with the rest of your hardware, but mine's stable and always has been, even with massive overclocks to the hardware. I always update. I think there's hate being thrown around without proof or justification. Digital Foundry, prove that there's issues with Windows 11. You keep crapping on it, without ever providing proof of the issues.
You really need a windows 11 gamer for this chat boys... geez. Windows is set it and forget it. Set windows not to update... easy peasy. Always update drivers for new games... no big deal. Most games preset graphics when you go on dependent on your system, and if you enable Xbox gaming on the pc, it puts windows to sleep. E.g. launch World of Warcraft... switch to desktop... instant. But xbox mode on. Game gets +15 to 20 fps, switch to windows... 3 to 5 second lag. So an xbox windows machine is already in place for my experience.
Xbox is never going to have multiple stores. The whole point is that it's exclusive. Just build a P.C if you want a P.C. My main system is a series x and I feel like i have the power of a P.C. without any flaws of a P.C.
Have gamers forgotten..or just didn't know!? WINDOWS has always been the fundamental OS of consoles. The Dreamcast ran WINDOWS, the original Xbox ran windows, and the 360 did also. I'm not certain of the One or Series consoles but it is likely they do. They run Edge and Bing...I don't think windows will be problematic
Xbox and Windows should be separate boots and separate drive space (maybe ZFS?). They should stick to the generations model though for the consoles, but they should allow not only Xboxes to run Windows, but Windows PCs to run Xbox, and play Xbox games natively on your PC. Nearly any PC running Windows 11 is capable of emulating OG Xbox and 360 games, so why not open up the older backward compatible titles to all Windows 11 users? If you have a beefy PC then Windows should be able to tell that you out-spec a Series X, and when you load into Xbox you should be allowed to play the Series X version of the game. And other older or leaner PCs can fall back on the Series S version of the game, or Xbox One X, or One, or One S... This can also be a fix for those of us who want to still play our disc-based Xbox games, since we can still buy 3rd party DVD and Blu Ray drives for our PCs and Xboxes, since Xbox consoles will likely be discless going forward. But this is how they can really sell users on the Play Anywhere feature - If you buy the Xbox digital version and get both the PC and Xbox version, they you have that freedom to play however you like on your PC or Xbox console or handheld.
If Microsoft can create a hybrid console/PC that's easier to use and solves all the annoying quirks of Windows, then I think they'll have a game changer on their hands. They've already pulled off some innovative stuff for Xbox Series consoles with quick resume and FPS boost, so I think they can do it. It will likely be non-upgradable hardware, but if it's set at a reasonable price then I think most people will be fine with that.
Would be cool to have Windows 11 on the Series Consoles. Imagine having a "Fixed spec PC " Series S entry level for $300, a mid tier Series X type while keeping the ease of owning a console. And for the "Pro" variant, the vast PC market can satisfy any budget or desire.
Coz having two SKUs worked so well for Microsoft. Now let's have infinite number of configurations and let the consumer get lost searching for fixes. This defeats the whole point of console, a hassle free gaming experience
Until Microsoft can sort out these Windows 11 issues they're gonna see a lot of people opposed to this idea. I definitely do think it's stupid that Microsoft is trying to force a lot of these things and trying to keep these Windows 11 forced sign ups and whatnot.... No one is going to be for something like that.
Ya, but unlike most Monopolies they are one because they provide a really great service. You shouldn't REWARD companies like Ubisoft for doing a crappy job and pushing people to Steam. And how exactly would you break Valve up anyway? Think about it.
Epic Games, Windows Store, Xbox Game launcher, Ubisoft Store, EA store, Battlenet, they all exist. The difference is they're all awful compared to Steam. Steam's dominance in market share is a function of it being a far better service.
I think it's good idea, I'm a PC gamer, I have a XBOX SX, I play much more on PC, I don't like controller and even my 3060ti looks and performs better on my 1440p monitor than the XBOX on my 4k TV. Maybe they can Implement a dual boot PC/Console.
The PC console is coming, but it'll be the Steam console, i.e. the home console equivalent of the Steam Deck. I don't think an Xbox - Windows hybrid console is going to happen. PC gaming basically means Steam, so why should MS even bring that to their Xbox?
The critical question here is not how but why? What is the business case for Microsoft to make an Xbox that lets other companies put a storefront on it that doesn't channel any revenue to Microsoft? If Microsoft did demand a piece of the action on those storefronts' revenues, why would they bother? They already have the PC without having to share anything with anyone but the game publishers. The consoles market only adds a few percent to the PC installed base they can potentially reach. What it seems people pushing the Xbox PC idea want is a more reliable PC but without the walled garden of a console. This is a bit more doable. To a large extent, Microsoft has already done it. The Xbox OS has always been a derivative of a recent Windows release, starting with Windows 2000 as the basis for the original Xbox OS. Back in the beta test days for Windows 8, many of us stated loudly that there should be a separate SKU for tablets and one for desktops, both having the upgrades and new APIS but each better suited to its intended form factor. Much furor would have been avoided. MS could produce something in between. A selectable UI suited to handhelds, a somewhat different one for TVs, and the desktop for when it was needed. Large portions of stuff not needed for a dedicated gaming (but not necessarily exclusively) system that is open to all software vendors. For example, everything needed for domain networking goes. This simplifies the system for reliability and eliminates attack surfaces for security improvement. All with significantly lower storage and RAM footprint. Microsoft will license this to hardware vendors the same way they do Windows now. This Windows SKU will receive separate updates as many of the regular Windows updates wouldn't apply without the affected code present. The update cycle will be longer to allow for things like the recent Ubisoft issue to be detected before the update goes to wide release. At the same time, in the interest of being console like, Microsoft and the major software and hardware vendor partners will form a standards committee to designate several levels of Xbox certified PCs for several price points. These will be given performance levels with the numbers rising with the launch price point. Any game rated, for example, level 3 will run as intended on level 3 and below systems. They may run BETTER on higher levels but that is less of a concern than complaints about a game requiring more than a system can handle. The firmware should contain the hardware level (as has long been done with OEM Windows licensing) so that game vendor apps can be aware of what the host system is capable of and advising shoppers accordingly. It won't stop you from buying something too demanding for your machine but you won't be able to claim you were not warned. (The Google Play store for Android does this well already.) As far as I can imagine, this is as good as its going to get for trying to have the best of both worlds. Not as versatile as a PC, not as simple as a console but that's the choice to be offered if the business model seems viable.
Xbox and sony will essentially kill their brands in the long run by sending all their games to pc. I can't understand how it logically makes sense from a business sense.
Hubris from those at the top. Phil Spencer bought brands that dwarf Xbox, so Nadella won't let make them exclusive. Hermen Hulst wants PlayStation's brands to be bigger than PlayStation because he's in charge of IP and not hardware or ecosystem.
@mckenleymason1212 i think they're probably going to regret the decision soon enough. Valve are reportedly set to release a new valve console. Imagine that, xbox and Playstation games on a console like pc platform, with free online, free cloud saves. Meanwhile, sony and xbox still trying to force you to pay for online. The valve console ironically will be the only console with exclusives and sony and xbox will be left competing for 70% revenue on steam
They both do business on pc but respectfully one console is up YoY while the other continues to sharply fall off a cliff. Outsold 3:1 in the US alone. 18:1 in Spain in latest results. It very much makes business sense for Sony plus its PS branding seen on millions more screens on pc. For Xbox their execution has the console and brand on life support. That’s why now “everything is Xbox.”
Probably. Consoles will soon move to being pcs with fancy designs if game exclusives are dead. The series X is sort of a prototype of that when you can play emulation over there
Nintendo will never port their games to PC. Their philosophy is, "You must buy Nintendo hardware to play Nintendo software". So, Nintendo consoles will always have their exclusives.
The Xbox has always run "Windows for Xbox" and functions of the Xbox are installed on windows as "Xbox Game Bar" and the Xbox store and Windows store are the same it's just the Xbox store doesn't get as many apps or games. At the end of the day Microsoft are just going to continue rent-seeking, and it's up to consumers to avoid their activities.
Never had an issue on pc since I switched to ryzen. I have plenty of steam deck issues, bugs, and tweaking though. Windows is plug and play for me. And xbox should have merged the stores back when windows 10 launched. Better late than never though. Launch xbox OS and merge stores asap.
The biggest challenge is not letting the Windows Store team screw it up. As always, the biggest threat to Xbox is the rest of Microsoft.
I agree but what if Xbox replaces the Windows Store? Maybe It will fix everything wrong with the store in general.
It’s odd because the MS store generally works on Xbox but not on Windows. You’d think the code would be similar.
Team, one man on half-time can't be called a team.
@@TheDunbartxeen Then that guy needs to talk to the guy on Xbox and get his thing fixed
The idea is that you’ll also have other stores, such as Steam, Epic, and GOG.
Instead of building a locked-down box and monetising it via licensing, they’ll make an open box which is basically a reference design for a living-room gaming PC with console experience. That console experience will have the Xbox store and GamePass integrated, but not require them.
They are one of the biggest publishers in the world now, so they’ll make money selling games on all platforms and storefronts. I expect they’ll pitch their hardware as being for GamePass subscribers who want to play locally, with a medium and high graphics tier option. That’s basically the role a Microsoft-branded box would serve.
Microsoft should create a Windows sku dedicated for gaming. Like Windows 11 Xbox Edition which has console interface with desktop apps running similar to windows 8 metro apps which only runs on fullscreen to make it more console like experience. And also allows user to switch from game mode to desktop mode.
Ummm well the xbox os is windows 11 so they kinda all ready have it
Much better option would be to introduce proper game mode to all Windows SKUs which would launch either stripped down Windows kernel optimized for gaming or a separate modified gaming kernel while pushing the main desktop UI to standby efficiency/sleep mode in order to take as few resources as possible. In this mode u could either continue with the desktop UI or Xbox like UI targeted for gaming controllers like gamepads. There's definitely a way and technology for doing it right, however Windows isn't Linux and PC isn't surely a Steam Deck, meaning that M$ execution isn't always state of the art especially since they shifted their focus almost completely on the Azure cloud and everything else was more less secondary.
That's what I want for my Legion Go, game mode OS like the Xbox and desktop mode for when I'm done playing games,if Microsoft can bring that for the upcoming Handheld I don't think people need to install Bazzite on the Legion Go.
No ability for Win 11 to spy on you and sell all your information> Never!
It was called Windows 8
Merging windows and xbox into some sort of no tradeoffs monolith is almost guaranteed to be a disaster.
Just wait until you get your hands on the new XBOX MEGA STEAM MACHINE PC that already does what PC does.
I'd buy it straight away if it had an Xbox OS and a Windows desktop mode so we can have the best of both worlds. Like a Steam Deck but Microsoft version.
The reason the Steam Deck is so good is because it DOESN'T run a Microsoft operating system. Heck even many users of the windows based handhelds are migrating those systems to Linux based ones.
@@pixeljauntvr7774The Xbox runs a Microsoft operating system and it works just peachy. Hell, Windows is pretty OK to use when properly debloated. The issue with Windows isn't necessarily Microsoft, it's the complete lack of meaningful competition and constant drive to squeeze out more money (whether actual money or ads/private data) from the user at any cost.
@pixeljauntvr7774 Steam OS isn't good because I own both a Steam Deck and Rog Ally so I know the pros and cons of both. Steam OS isn't compatible anymore with PlayStation games that require PSN, it doesn't play Game Pass natively, it doesn't play games like Cod or any other that has anti cheat, cloud gaming is a nightmare to set up for the majority who aren't tech savvy enough, playing games from Steam can be a fiddle having to mess around with Proton, installing other launchers like Epic Games and GoG can be difficult to set up for those who aren't tech savvy too. None of these are issues on Windows based handhelds. Windows based handhelds issue is Windows isn't stream lined enough for a smaller screen which MS are working on with a compact mode that'll release at some point. So in all, there's far more cons to a Steam Deck than it is a Rog Ally. Steam Deck gets the advantage in installing emulator's, and it's Steam OS that's more compact like a console experience.
@@pixeljauntvr7774The Xbox runs a Microsoft OS?
Also, I don’t understand your point. Steam OS, which runs on Linux, is excellent for gaming. However, when you switch to the Linux desktop for other tasks, it’s inferior to Windows. Even attempting to run Xcloud on a Steam Deck is a frustrating experience. If the box boots to Xbox OS but allows users to switch to desktop mode, which is Windows, the overall experience would be the same. Both Linux and Windows are inconvenient without a keyboard and mouse.
@@pixeljauntvr7774having owned a Steam Deck, I sold it. Proton barely worked.
Sandboxing Xbox from Windows can work or even dual booting Xbox OS on a Windows PC would ensure the console experience to be consistent but take advantage of the hardware and added benefits of a highend PC.
This guy is 100% not wrong. I think there is a way where it works, though. The Steam Deck does a good job of behaving like a console, but also offering that desktop "do anything" option that you CAN access if you want. But if you never go to desktop mode, if you never mess with folders etc, it works like a console.
That's the main reason I prefer gaming in consoles: it's almost hassle free (compared to Windows PCs).
i too, but theres too much issues with consoles. Etc bad frame rates, game prizes.
@@Sakari-h3s Bad frame rates and gaming prices also expensive on PC it depends on specs and if the games new or not. But overall Consoles is for people who is busy and dont want any hassle (bad port, stuter, un optimize even on powerful GPU, virus, data leak etc)
@@mightyhadi6132 i agree, maybe its cos devs are pushed to do graphical things that consoles cant do? i wish there was options to lower some things in settings... time will tell maybe console will be more like pc in future
and i would gladly play with console in future. last x-box was pretty nice, but still
@@mightyhadi6132that hassle comment reads like someone who doesn't game on a PC 😭
_"...and that's why i just stick with consoles mostly, nowadays... i still love pcs but i just want that, all that stuff, to be sorted with a fix spec machine..."_ - Tom's gonna get himself cancelled by the pcmr crowd.
I'd hope that this would lead to developers optimizing things for PC hardware more. Steam Deck lead to some efforts in a few places, which is promising. Steam OS is very different from Windows, of course.
Best thing about steam deck is that you can just run it like a console, you don't ever have to go into desktop mode unless you like to tweak with tech.
likely devs will include xbox optimized profiles for their games similar to steam deck. Which technically you could enable in the INI file in the game folder.
hardware wise is possible to do this hybrid , with DX connect and some dedicated OS memory that works as a cache/buffer, similar on how they do with quick resume on xbox already. This way you always have a standby system ready to pull in and you just need to recoverd the ram of the apps from the ssd which are quite fast nowadays
PC hardware component manufacturers have no financial incentive to sell anything at a loss the way console manufacturers do. Valve's Steam OS push is promising, but they have almost no incentive to consistently produce the best games they can, year over year, the way Nintendo and Sony do. Optimization is a crapshoot on endless configurations, passing the buck to parts producers, software creators, modders and users. Games will always be held back by the lowest common denominator of low spec machines in terms of simulation complexity and production value, especially since PC handhelds are all the rage now.
People just want games to come out consistently and perform well now. Its the game companies insisting on constant progression in fidelity thats holding back games at this point. Graphics have only improved marginally over the past 8 or so years, and the performance hit that raytracing brings isnt justifiable to most people. Thats how the whole "i want shorter games with worse graphics" meme stemmed from.
The PS5 Pro is not sold at a loss.
Those sold at a loss days are over.
@@Buddhakingpen Companies aren't insisting on increasing fidelity. What ray-tracing and other technologies like Unreal 5, etc. are for streamlining production (i.e., make development cheaper, thus more profits.)
That's why games from a decade ago were better, because today's games are actually cheaper products sold at higher pricetag.
@@davidsentanu7836 huh? theres always been tools for streamlining production pretty much since the inception of 3d modeling. We got to unreal engine 5 because there were 4 other UE's in the past. And i guarantee you that UE 5 is higher fidelity than UE 1. I dont think devs using game engines to create games is exactly ruining games lol.
I believe this could be a positive development. PC gaming has always been about getting the best performance out of your hardware while playing the game your way-whether that's at 120fps, with ray tracing, in 4K, or 1080p. Consoles have traditionally been more about simplicity and convenience, where you just pick up and play.
That said, it would be great to see games developed for PC also being optimized for consoles. This could enhance the console and cloud gaming experience significantly. One reason the Xbox 360 was so successful was its excellent online services and its dominance in third-party games.
If this initiative brings the store and Xbox platforms closer together, with a unified interface across devices like the ROG Ally and Xbox consoles, it could be very effective.
Gaming is evolving, and this generation, as well as the last, hasn't matched the impact of the 360, PS3, and Wii era.
I understand the various points being made, but with Steam's presence in the market, Microsoft needs to stay competitive, especially considering the significant investments they've made in studios and with macOS gaining ground.
These are certainly interesting times for Microsoft. This development has the potential to be beneficial, much like how Windows Media Center was innovative, even if ahead of its time.
There's a reason I don't have a windows desktop and do have an Xbox. I want a specialized focused game console
I had been talking about this idea for years. It's easy. Option 1. You can boot into full optimized Xbox or boot into full version of Windows. Option 2. You boot into full optimized Xbox, or a limited version of Windows. Were they will make it harder for pirating than traditional Windows, and have no third party apps you can buy games from like steam/gog etc.
i think an xbox pc with side loading steam would be something I want
ps5 with a version of linux would be sweet
Xbox gets windows, PS6 runs linux. two less consoles/operating systems to develop for, console players get get to play their games flawlessly with the added benefit of using them for other stuff (modding, coding, design, etc.) and all PC players get their experiences improved. A win for everybody(?)
That’s why PS3 was the best, they already did this.
It's more than doable. They could have two OS: an Xbox app pre-installed and Windows sideloaded.
Its not, just with the sepc alone would make it a mess
@SWOTHDRAno it wouldn't lol
Xbox OS is already based on Windows 11. Windows 11 with Xbox specific components could do the same work as sideloading, but with less hustle
I was under the impression that Xbox used a Hypervisor model? If so they would just drop in a VM for the Windows system.
It wouldn't be too hard, I just don't see the point.
What feature in Windows does the Xbox need? What feature in the Xbox does Windows PC need?
If an "xbox" had features of a windows machine, you could install steam on your "console". Windows also needs a lot of work on microsofts side to be more gamer friendly. For instance, you want to sit back and game with a controller on your pc, using steam. But then user account control pops up, and you have to get to your mouse and keyboard just to click "ok" before you can use your controller again. Theres a lot of streamlining that could be done for gaming on pc on microsofts end. Steam remedies a lot of the problems, but not everything.
Microsoft already has this exact tech inhouse. Read about Windows 10X. Its architecture is similar to Xbox OS (both use Windows Core OS as a foundation). It wasn't supposed to be Win32 compatible by default, but could run a VM with regular Win32 environment in Hyper-V. It's exactly what you described
I cannot wait for steamos to take off. As soon as a desktop version is officially released I am there day 1. I’ve already been tempted to try Chimera or something else. Can’t wait to leave windows behind
At the end of the day SteamOS 3.x is Arch Linux with a bunch of hand picked optimisations and hand crafted scripts for the Steam Deck specifically with Steam launching by default in -tenfoot mode with gamescope.
Under the hood it's Arch with KDE desktop. L
Chimera, Bazzite, and CachyOS all recreate the setup for desktop.
But if you want to do it yourself with all the Linux optimisations you'll want to install any Linux distro with a decent release schedule (at least twice a year or rolling), install gamescope, feral gamemode, mangohud, a Proton downloader, a Proton Tweaks system, and then have a startup launch program to run 'steam -tenfoot' with or without gamescope.
You could even set the PC to automatically log into a given account on boot.
So you'd have the console-like experience of pressing the power button and it starts into a full screen Steam overlay with all the tweaks ready to go
Xbox PC handheld with a cutdown W11 mode to get access to Steam, Epic games store, etc... would be the ultimate version. That way the portable Xbox can play PlayStation games.
Xbox can Play PS1 & ps2 Games with dev mode
Great comment/question and I 100% AGREE - I have PC and I love my console because it JUST WORKS
dual boot or a dual mode with button between classic xbox and windows
I don't know whether Windows 11 will be suitable for this. To be running on a next generation Xbox and a handheld? I have a Rog Ally and running Windows 11 really doesn't work well.
Keep it simple ability to uncap the frame rate. A set internal resolution say 1080p and your choice of upscaler be it FSR 3 or I would prefer dlss because it's simply the best. We don't want to have to worry about drivers
I don’t understand why MS can’t just release Xbox OS to be installed on a pc. Architecture is the same. Then users can just download and play Xbox games on their pc (without streaming) or reboot back into windows for pc tasks. Best of both worlds.
Probably because the architecture isn't the same.
@ yes it is. Both are x86
Xbox os is just trimmed down windows. And there isn’t any benefit or performance to be gained by using the xbox os. They really perform the same. That’s why more developers are able to squeeze more out of the ps5 compared to xbox because it’s not windows
@ Xbox os is lighter and utilized hyperV to sandbox games and dedicate hardware resources to them. I think having something like that on the pc, that could play Xbox games (not pc ports) would be a benefit.
I’m imaging basically running a game directly on hardware with only needed host components rather than the entire windows OS. And that’s basically what Xbox os is at the end of the day. PlayStation OS is the same just using BSD as a base and custom api’s, though I think they utilize vulkan for rendering.
@@BulkybearOG the only benefit is not getting interrupted by windows updates. You can already do all that on pc by closing all other apps, and setting to prioritise the game .exe process in the system monitor. And voila, absolutely no performance gain at all.
I dislike all those different modes for console games for a simmilar reason. Some games have double digit itterations to choose and typically not all run well (if any at all). So before you want to game you have to watch reviews to know which settings to choose. And then you have to wait for the next 100gb update... I found myself sometimes turning the console back off because the joy to play was gone before i got to the playing of a game.
If Valve is doing something similar, then Microsoft/Xbox has no chance to succeed. A lot more people have their games on Steam then on microsoft bad store, so they will definetly go with Valve SteamOS system on evry HW.
Dunno fam, depends on feature sets. Steam OS sucked so hard I fought with them two weeks to return my Limited Edition OLED to get a Legion Go because I don't want to be fiddling with bonkers amounts of stuff like Proton GE, Lutris, etc. I did more finagling and guides than I did game playing.
For Steam Verified titles it was like legitimately magic and often times by utilizing Vulkan eliminated garbage like stutter in FF7 Remake. Heroic etc allowed other storefronts which was great.
But the fact remains the process of doing.. anything outside of what Valve's team accomplished in compatibility was a straight up nightmare.
@@Kevdawg207you should just get a mac dude. Jeez all the complaining it’s not even that hard. And you literally don’t have to use lutris. Steam can run ea app, GOG, battlenet, and even cracked games.
@@Kevdawg207I've definitely had some issues with Steam OS. But I think a lot of the issues with the deck is the weaker hardware as well. My ROG Ally is awesome, and running big pictuee mode gives me the Steam OS feel with the Windows compatibility. Hopefully Valve continues to advance PC gaming on Linux so we don't have to depend so much on Microsoft.
they can do it. Any games' optimisation can positively affect the experience on Windows if they de-windify it to be optimised for gaming, which in general is going to get peak performance, PCs fly these days. This could benefit Windows overall (desktop, laptop, mini PCs, handhelds). But first, they must take it seriously, if not Valve is going to take over
How much more do they need to "de-windify" it? They already have gamemoade, DX12, and direct storage. It's not even like they need a stripped down version for peak game performance, Windows is designed to provide good performance already.
I just can't see them directing a giant amount of engineering work to do that when it isn't entirely needed. The only significant deviation from the current version of Windows 11 would be to make a controller friendly UI system and a simplified xbox front end. That will be very large and complicated project but I don't see the need for them to dramatically strip down Windows, unless I'm not understanding what you're saying.
@@BasePuma4007DX12 is a mess four years after release, Direct Storage is a crutch that has had limited impact, Feral gamemode is FOSS and thus is available on competing operating systems.
There's nothing that W11 offers to gamers that serves as a "killer app". Microsoft rent-seeking and upselling is reaching it's logical end, what's left is a race between consumers patience and FOSS communities ability to survive in an information negative environment.
You already have (sort of) xbox experience on Windows. On xCloud. If they improve it, allow streaming all purchased games, I wouldn't be surprised if nex-gen will be the last-gen. After that series-s-like/handheld for people without good internet and xcloud for full experience.
I've been thinking this very thing.
Could Microsoft make the next XBOX a windows machine that by default boots into an XBOX UI?
allowing it to also function fully as a windows machine?
Maybe if ms writes completely new OS from linux/unix core. Migratin to ARM cpu would be a chance to do it and have unified os like Apple have. But then backward compatibility would be an issue, resolves by cloud gaming at some extend
I think the "problem-free" experience of a console is an unfulfilled promise. I've had more issues with console games crashing or running badly than I had with games on my PC.
Super simple, just copy PS3 and Steam Deck.
Build the console to boot to the console UI, and also allow users to switch to a full desktop OS.
Fixed hardware with proper tools eliminates all the problems that crop up with mix/matched PC hardware.
dual system aproach one is the xbox system other as desktop mode windows both work seperate but share all games
I don't see it being viable because 90% of people would just install Steam and microsoft would gain zero revenue from it.
I’d use the Microsoft store if it was good. Steam is honestly pretty rubbish, and it only does so well because it’s competition is somehow even worse
A Microsoft Published game where Microsoft gets 70% of the revenue from the sales of those games on Steam? And there are a lot of people that like gamepass. Not everyone is going to use Steam exclusively.
your logic aint working when people playing xbox made games are a tiny fraction of pc gaming. They need to subsidize by getting a cut on every game sold. Thats why Spencer's plan of opening up to the competition is gonna close the xbox hardware business if it comes to pass. That aint a profitable business idea. @@BasePuma4007
Working with DX12 ln Xbox is quite a different experience than on PC. Memory management, for example: on PC devs need to deal with upload heaps, residency, etc. Don't get me started on PSO compilation.
MS needs to coordinate with Nvidia, AMD, and Intel to make DirectX12 on PC a alot better for developers to bridge that gap.
(Vulkan has similar issues, BTW)
I imagine that there will be an Xbox UI front end on computers and handhelds. I think the consoles will remain the same with just the Xbox experience
A reasonable prediction.
Minus a disc drive that will play Xbox games, there’s no reason to buy an Xbox minus convenience (which is the point of consoles). For somebody playing PC/PS5, I actually do miss that convenience with game pass.
PC gaming is awesome but basically every time you launch a game it’s “update required.”
2:56 Sentence of the year. Sorry, Rich! 😅
probably can be done but they do not have the will to do it, I really hope linux is the future with console pc hybrids.
I want this mythical Xbox Sorted Edition Tom speaks of…lol…where everything works and it has games I enjoy. Do what you must with the OS to achieve this level of consumer satisfaction.
As a gamer with a console PC hooked up to my living room tv, if they launch a game mode in Win11, Microsoft needs to solve 2 major issues:
1) Many core components require mouse and keyboard input in Win11, like updating windows / drivers. Even swapping audio sources like from tv speakers to headphones require mouse and keyboard input (w/o an external app like soundswitch)
2) Suspend / Resume. This is the one thing that constantly pulls me back to the PS5 after I’ve let my eyes be blessed with path traced goodness. Current suspend / resume from sleep on Win11 is average at best, and catastrophic at its worst. If they merge, this should be priority as consoles have this major leg up vs PC
Unless Microsoft makes it possible for UWP Apps / Games to be recognizable to Peripheral Profile Software to assign custom Keybinds I don't see it ever getting any traction with the Players...
I tried playing the UWP version of the rebooted DOOM games but couldn't because you can't assign a custom Mouse Binding Profile to UWP Apps / Games to get the most out of your Gaming Experience resulting in you essentially falling back to the default OS Keybindings which in my case are entirely unusable for Gaming as it is centered mostly around Window and Desktop Management. Had to refund the cheaper UWP Store bought version and get it from Steam not plagued by such shenanigans.
Microsoft Store games are mostly Win32 based
What alot of people don't realize the OS for the Series X/S is Windows 11 kernal with a UI on top... So we're already going in this direction and I will say it now the next console will just be a pc with a Console UI on top.
It should basically be the same as Xbox, but with the ability to run PC apps.
The key is that it needs to be a standard box, akin to a Mac Pro or a steamdeck. Not windows, but compatible with windows.
I'd love a $1000 box with Full PC functionality, and more power than the standard console. 4 times the power and capacity of a PS5 Pro across the board would be sweet. About 64GB of unified memory for applications/games plus 8gb for the OS and background tasks, 4X the CPU and GPU power (would likely mean having 16 cores), etc... And even though that sounds beastly, nowadays it would likely just be enough for native 4k 120fps maxed out when it comes to UE 5.5.
Of course this kind of performance for $1000 will not be possible in 2025, but I think it's a nice target down the line.
I do think all they should've done is say. This is our Xbox series X2 and this will be the base gaming experience that we promise to be viable for the next 6 years. On another note you can restart our new 499USD box straight into Win11 and do whatever the hell you want with it. I do think even at the current performance Series X has and its price it would make for a great value PC.
Microsoft needs to spinoff Xbox App and give it a big picture mode. Basically just launch the Console Dashboard.
I’m not sure the marketing team is actually going to be able to communicate it all.
I don't get why they don't release a lightweight gaming os. It could be a dual boot kinda thing, so you can have both and they could even expand their current user base even more, which is already massive. I have no idea how to do it, but for them, I can't think of a reason why it wouldn't be a quick and easy thing to implement. It's sad to see them not take their head out of their ass.
Amazing video, great views, thank you Digital Foundry.
Microsoft has yet to make a gaming version of Windows 11 specifically designed for handheld PCs.
I would buy an Xbox with an Windows mode day one. Like a steam deck, reboot into desktop mode.
From my point of view, it's more a case that MIcrosoft has never given a damn about games in the first place. Originally the Xbox was intended to be a Windows Media extender for the living room, and Seamus Blackly kind of went behind Bill Gates back to make a console. The only thing that save his team their jobs was Bill being concerned that Sony was back-dooring a living-room PC into tens of millions of customer's homes via PS2 upgrades Sony was marketing, though ultimately that turned out to be just smoke and mirrors so that Sony could skirt European import taxes on luxury electronics by claiming the PS2 was a PC. Even during the X360 era where Microsoft was on top of their game, there was a schism within Microsoft over whether or not to keep the brand in-house or spin it off into it's own independent company. Lots of people at Microsoft didn't think they had any business in the console or games market.
So a move like this isn't something I see Microsoft making out of concern for competing with Sony in the traditional console space. Microsoft doesn't really have an incentive to compete against them. If Sony were to completely blow them out of the water in the console market... Microsoft just loses the console market, which they never really wanted to be in in the first place. Sony is not a real threat to Microsoft. So this move seems to be more in line with their original motivations of wanting to leverage the Xbox brand to protect their Operating System hegemony - and that their real competition is Valve these days, not Sony. Proton is a far greater potential threat to Microsoft than anything Sony has ever produced, and it can't go unanswered. So while it looks like Microsoft has just given up, is opening their platform, and going third party - the reality is that they are simply fighting a much larger battle on an entirely different battlefield. One which is entirely beyond the scope of Sony and the Playstation brand to even enter.
What we need is a Steam console with linux in the background.
rich had to say "glorious whole"
I hope Microsoft makes a handheld Xbox that has PC compatibility. I would love to have access to my Xbox 360 and Xbox One catalog without another dedicated box connected to my tv.
We need console stability but pc flexibility (not impossible jtag xbox 360 its like it)
I think they should eliminate the pay to play online for Xbox consoles and then lean into Xbox play anywhere more. Where if you get the game on Xbox, you’ll get it on PC and vice versa. Make an Xbox launcher that works well with hand helds. Eliminating a box they sell with the same specs for everyone would be a mistake
I wish they just did that with the current generation or not at all.
When you look at all of Microsofts gaols across, cloud, mobile, AI and gaming. Microsoft could reduce their entire line of hardware to a tablet base system that has different attachements. Add a keyboard, it's a laptop. Add controllers on the side, its a gaming handheld. Drop it in a custom dock with an eGPU, it's a console or gaming PC. The problem as everyone points out is the reality of Windows vs the theory of what windows should be. Hardware aint the issue. Gaming handhelds exists. Ultra thin laptops exisit. Great mobile and tablet devices exist. What doesn't exist is a version of Windows that's not bloated and has a UI that works well with mouse/keyboard, touch and a controller.
I mean if microsoft can give a $500 console that can run windows, this would be my first time buying an xbox, devs that need to target this hardware in compination with the freedom of installing steam and having cheap games, I'm sold
This is essentially what Xbox should have originally been back in 2001. A fully integrated PC software platform. That would have eliminated the blow to consumers because there never would have been an Xbox console in the first place. Granted, the game industry and the wider consumer market wasn’t ready for all that 20+ years ago. For this to work, Xbox hardware has to die and live on through PC by fusing its software services and ecosystem into the larger PC ecosystem and platform. I truly don’t see a bright future for Xbox hardware anymore though.
If Microsoft can make the XBox capable of running e-mail, Teams and Office webapps I think that would be all MS would want/need. I don't think the console should have a full Windows 11 OS.
If they don't do this soon, Valve will do it for them with Steam OS.
This would be interesting. I guess it depends on how much it’ll cost
xbox version of office suite would be very sweet, basically make the xbox a pc substitute
I always thought Xbox OS was just a windows software branch anyway.
It's feasible. Just have a dual boot option. I'd buy it immediately it comes out.
There is a reason this should not happen, that is because pc is designed for workflow, being able to regulate clock speeds, and keep temps in check and all that to ensure the best experience with our hardware. A console on the other hand, as I see it, is designed to simply make sure that a game will run on it, with or without all features of said game enabled. Imho consoles have been largely holding back pc gaming creativity because of console restraints and limited hardware. Pcs can have limited hardware too, but its far easier to upgrade a pc than it would be to upgrade a console. All that out of the way, I enjoy my pc gaming as well as console gaming, I hope both work out for the best in the future.
Most components these days already make use of their potential pretty well, overclocking isn’t a meteoric boost like it was in the past
I disagree that games have been held back, if you look on the Steam hardware survey, there’s a significant chunk of PCs with worse specs than modern consoles. I mean I keep laughing at people crying their 1080 can’t play new games
The Series X and PS5 are not holding back PC gaming the way you're describing. That has been the case the last three generations, not today. Roughly 30% of Steam users are still using hardware that is considerably worse than the Series X or PS5 on paper. Reaching the beginning of the end (diminishing returns) of Moores Law means consoles are not as irrelevant and weak compared to the past.
Sounds like use error. I been on 24H2 and i've had no crashes.
Xbox console that can switch into Windows mode would be cool
Which makes it a low end PC.
@@pixeljauntvr7774- guy who spends his money on overrated junk like the 4090
It's incredibly rare that I ever experience crashing on W11 Pro. 24H2. I do run an RTX 4090, but my i9-10920X is a bit old now. I still don't have any issues with crashes. All modern AAA games, all indie games, nothing crashes. W11 Pro is stable. I'm not sure what's wrong with the rest of your hardware, but mine's stable and always has been, even with massive overclocks to the hardware. I always update. I think there's hate being thrown around without proof or justification.
Digital Foundry, prove that there's issues with Windows 11. You keep crapping on it, without ever providing proof of the issues.
You really need a windows 11 gamer for this chat boys... geez. Windows is set it and forget it. Set windows not to update... easy peasy. Always update drivers for new games... no big deal. Most games preset graphics when you go on dependent on your system, and if you enable Xbox gaming on the pc, it puts windows to sleep. E.g. launch World of Warcraft... switch to desktop... instant. But xbox mode on. Game gets +15 to 20 fps, switch to windows... 3 to 5 second lag. So an xbox windows machine is already in place for my experience.
Xbox is never going to have multiple stores. The whole point is that it's exclusive. Just build a P.C if you want a P.C.
My main system is a series x and I feel like i have the power of a P.C. without any flaws of a P.C.
Exactly. This entire line of thinking is completely pointless.
"power of a P.C."
Do you know that is meaningless and silly?
PC is not one set "power level" or speed there are pc's weaker then ps1's out there
Xbox already has a storefront on Steam and the Windows Store, so that's null.
You guys will be fine! I made the jump and I never looked back.
Why on earth would Microsoft make a subsidized console that you can install steam on?
Have gamers forgotten..or just didn't know!? WINDOWS has always been the fundamental OS of consoles. The Dreamcast ran WINDOWS, the original Xbox ran windows, and the 360 did also. I'm not certain of the One or Series consoles but it is likely they do. They run Edge and Bing...I don't think windows will be problematic
Xbox and Windows should be separate boots and separate drive space (maybe ZFS?). They should stick to the generations model though for the consoles, but they should allow not only Xboxes to run Windows, but Windows PCs to run Xbox, and play Xbox games natively on your PC. Nearly any PC running Windows 11 is capable of emulating OG Xbox and 360 games, so why not open up the older backward compatible titles to all Windows 11 users? If you have a beefy PC then Windows should be able to tell that you out-spec a Series X, and when you load into Xbox you should be allowed to play the Series X version of the game. And other older or leaner PCs can fall back on the Series S version of the game, or Xbox One X, or One, or One S... This can also be a fix for those of us who want to still play our disc-based Xbox games, since we can still buy 3rd party DVD and Blu Ray drives for our PCs and Xboxes, since Xbox consoles will likely be discless going forward. But this is how they can really sell users on the Play Anywhere feature - If you buy the Xbox digital version and get both the PC and Xbox version, they you have that freedom to play however you like on your PC or Xbox console or handheld.
If Microsoft can create a hybrid console/PC that's easier to use and solves all the annoying quirks of Windows, then I think they'll have a game changer on their hands. They've already pulled off some innovative stuff for Xbox Series consoles with quick resume and FPS boost, so I think they can do it. It will likely be non-upgradable hardware, but if it's set at a reasonable price then I think most people will be fine with that.
Would be cool to have Windows 11 on the Series Consoles. Imagine having a "Fixed spec PC " Series S entry level for $300, a mid tier Series X type while keeping the ease of owning a console. And for the "Pro" variant, the vast PC market can satisfy any budget or desire.
They can make the os already like what it is and just add more windows like apps to it
Call it the Surface Box
MS could have made their own Atari ST anytime they wanted to before.
Coz having two SKUs worked so well for Microsoft. Now let's have infinite number of configurations and let the consumer get lost searching for fixes. This defeats the whole point of console, a hassle free gaming experience
Until Microsoft can sort out these Windows 11 issues they're gonna see a lot of people opposed to this idea.
I definitely do think it's stupid that Microsoft is trying to force a lot of these things and trying to keep these Windows 11 forced sign ups and whatnot.... No one is going to be for something like that.
I knew Xbox was going to convert to PC they would be open to all the storefronts
The only way this will work is if Steam is broken up. They have a massive monopoly on PC gaming
Ya, but unlike most Monopolies they are one because they provide a really great service. You shouldn't REWARD companies like Ubisoft for doing a crappy job and pushing people to Steam.
And how exactly would you break Valve up anyway? Think about it.
what do you mean broken up...? there are PLENTY of storefronts to choose from. Steam just does it better than everyone else.
Microsoft has monopoly over Windows Store, pre-installed on every Windows. There is a reason people prefer to install Steam.
Epic Games, Windows Store, Xbox Game launcher, Ubisoft Store, EA store, Battlenet, they all exist. The difference is they're all awful compared to Steam. Steam's dominance in market share is a function of it being a far better service.
I think it's good idea, I'm a PC gamer, I have a XBOX SX, I play much more on PC, I don't like controller and even my 3060ti looks and performs better on my 1440p monitor than the XBOX on my 4k TV. Maybe they can Implement a dual boot PC/Console.
Potentially introducing cheating to console gaming is a bad idea.
The PC console is coming, but it'll be the Steam console, i.e. the home console equivalent of the Steam Deck. I don't think an Xbox - Windows hybrid console is going to happen. PC gaming basically means Steam, so why should MS even bring that to their Xbox?
IMO an "Xbox OS" (not Windows) PC makes perfect sense as a strategy for Xbox. I look forward to seeing where this goes.
The critical question here is not how but why? What is the business case for Microsoft to make an Xbox that lets other companies put a storefront on it that doesn't channel any revenue to Microsoft? If Microsoft did demand a piece of the action on those storefronts' revenues, why would they bother? They already have the PC without having to share anything with anyone but the game publishers. The consoles market only adds a few percent to the PC installed base they can potentially reach.
What it seems people pushing the Xbox PC idea want is a more reliable PC but without the walled garden of a console. This is a bit more doable. To a large extent, Microsoft has already done it. The Xbox OS has always been a derivative of a recent Windows release, starting with Windows 2000 as the basis for the original Xbox OS. Back in the beta test days for Windows 8, many of us stated loudly that there should be a separate SKU for tablets and one for desktops, both having the upgrades and new APIS but each better suited to its intended form factor. Much furor would have been avoided. MS could produce something in between.
A selectable UI suited to handhelds, a somewhat different one for TVs, and the desktop for when it was needed. Large portions of stuff not needed for a dedicated gaming (but not necessarily exclusively) system that is open to all software vendors. For example, everything needed for domain networking goes. This simplifies the system for reliability and eliminates attack surfaces for security improvement. All with significantly lower storage and RAM footprint. Microsoft will license this to hardware vendors the same way they do Windows now.
This Windows SKU will receive separate updates as many of the regular Windows updates wouldn't apply without the affected code present. The update cycle will be longer to allow for things like the recent Ubisoft issue to be detected before the update goes to wide release.
At the same time, in the interest of being console like, Microsoft and the major software and hardware vendor partners will form a standards committee to designate several levels of Xbox certified PCs for several price points. These will be given performance levels with the numbers rising with the launch price point. Any game rated, for example, level 3 will run as intended on level 3 and below systems. They may run BETTER on higher levels but that is less of a concern than complaints about a game requiring more than a system can handle. The firmware should contain the hardware level (as has long been done with OEM Windows licensing) so that game vendor apps can be aware of what the host system is capable of and advising shoppers accordingly. It won't stop you from buying something too demanding for your machine but you won't be able to claim you were not warned. (The Google Play store for Android does this well already.)
As far as I can imagine, this is as good as its going to get for trying to have the best of both worlds. Not as versatile as a PC, not as simple as a console but that's the choice to be offered if the business model seems viable.
Xbox and sony will essentially kill their brands in the long run by sending all their games to pc.
I can't understand how it logically makes sense from a business sense.
Hubris from those at the top. Phil Spencer bought brands that dwarf Xbox, so Nadella won't let make them exclusive. Hermen Hulst wants PlayStation's brands to be bigger than PlayStation because he's in charge of IP and not hardware or ecosystem.
I think in a few years you'll see PlayStation pull back a little bit from putting games on PC as fast.
@mckenleymason1212 i think they're probably going to regret the decision soon enough.
Valve are reportedly set to release a new valve console.
Imagine that, xbox and Playstation games on a console like pc platform, with free online, free cloud saves.
Meanwhile, sony and xbox still trying to force you to pay for online. The valve console ironically will be the only console with exclusives and sony and xbox will be left competing for 70% revenue on steam
They both do business on pc but respectfully one console is up YoY while the other continues to sharply fall off a cliff. Outsold 3:1 in the US alone. 18:1 in Spain in latest results. It very much makes business sense for Sony plus its PS branding seen on millions more screens on pc. For Xbox their execution has the console and brand on life support. That’s why now “everything is Xbox.”
Well Sony have been doing PC ports of PlayStation games since 1995, so how long is “the death of PlayStation” going to take?
Probably. Consoles will soon move to being pcs with fancy designs if game exclusives are dead. The series X is sort of a prototype of that when you can play emulation over there
With like 4 different modes on playstation, they might as well lol.
Console users want simplicity not 20 different options.
Nintendo will never port their games to PC. Their philosophy is, "You must buy Nintendo hardware to play Nintendo software". So, Nintendo consoles will always have their exclusives.
@@dr_diddyIf console owners want simplicity then having a console run windows is the worst idea ever.
The real question is: will Japan start using Nintendo Switch OS instead of Windows?
The Xbox has always run "Windows for Xbox" and functions of the Xbox are installed on windows as "Xbox Game Bar" and the Xbox store and Windows store are the same it's just the Xbox store doesn't get as many apps or games.
At the end of the day Microsoft are just going to continue rent-seeking, and it's up to consumers to avoid their activities.
They can make an Xbox os like what they have now and just add UWP apps
Imagine playing Steam games on your Xbox.
I need steam to be brought on xbox and an xbox app on steam upcoming machine.
Never had an issue on pc since I switched to ryzen. I have plenty of steam deck issues, bugs, and tweaking though. Windows is plug and play for me. And xbox should have merged the stores back when windows 10 launched. Better late than never though. Launch xbox OS and merge stores asap.
I have to admit. I've been gaming on PC for several years with no issues at all.