Finally! A Star Wars Tuber who doesn't think Zannah's Madness spells are trash. One thing I think people also forget is Bane had like 2 decades of prep-time knowing those spells were coming whereas 90% of the verse wouldn't have that luxury.
Just started this video but this comment makes me excited. Even if she ends up losing, almost all previous versus matches that use Zannah, completely discredit all of her skills despite the books going out of their way to say how powerful and skilled she was.
Honestly I wouldn’t say her madness spells are trash, but they would be difficult for beings that have a strong mind and will or even beings that have a mastery in force sorcery. Kenobi is an example as he spent some time on a planet that did a similar thing as zannahs madness spell but was able to resist, I’d say the same with likes of reborn krayt as wyrlock did an illusion similar but he managed to break it. In terms of sorcerers, id say wyrlock is one of them along with ancient sith like naga sadow and possibly marka ragnos, with an example on the Jedi side I’d say Odan urr and Nomi sunrider, beings that have the ability of battle mind and have helped to break illusions of the ancient sith and nomi despite being in tears could still operate and cut ulic off from the force. I’m just starting the video but I do think her madness spell can do a number on Galen, he’s disciplined in his skills but a sound mind I don’t think he has or one that’d be strong enough against zannah.
@@MusicFan752if you know anything on Bane, you know he had a crazy impressive will and mind. So the fact that a watered-down spell of madness from Zannah almost took Bane out, should speak volumes for how effective her spells of madness would be against a majority of the mythos actually.
Actually, I do remember EvanNova95 and Jensaari1 giving Zannah a victory because she knows how to use spells, and her opponent was susceptible to mind games.
Unexpected but certainly not unwelcome. I look forward to seeing what master class craftsmanship in analysis and powerscaling you will grace us with this time
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I absolutely love this match up. It's is the perfect example that just because a force user has the advantage in physical might does not mean they will win if their mental strength is not as strong. I enjoyed this so much that if I find the time I'm really tempted to doing a follow-up to my last match up video. Keep up the incredible work. 👏👏
So glad to finally see someone give Zannah the respect she deserves. Would love to see Meetra Surik vs Inquisitor Jerec or Darth Traya vs Obi-Wan Kenobi
TBH, I think Starkiller at the end of his character arc would survive Zannah's spells. As in, if she cast her strongest one and then left him alone, he wouldn't go into a coma and would break out. Eventually. Not nearly fast enough to stop her form killing him in a duel. I 100% agree that Zannah wins this fight.
Yeahhh the problem with Starkiller in this matchup is that he's routinely been shown to be vulnerable to telepathic attacks-especially in Force Unleashed 2 if the memory flashes and hallucinations he'd seen during the duel with Vader are interpreted to be direct psychic attacks rather than just horribly inconvenient flashbacks popping up mid-fight. Not only that, but the myriad of visions that he'd been forced to come to blows with against Darth Phobos (who is pretty much a watered-down version of Zannah) in the Wii/PS2 version of the story, the Trial of Insight, and (even as non-canon as it is) Ben Kenobi in the Tatooine DLC for Force Unleashed 1 show that even mind-tricks from suitably powerful Jedi can throw him off his game mid-fight. He's not breaking out battle-mind like Nomi Sundrider, he's not using a Jedi-like zen like Obi-Wan or Luke to work through it, and he's not able to martial his willpower to the extent that Bane or Vader did when faced with these types of visions to dispel them. Galen is forced to try and ride out the effects rather than actively combating them, which isn't going to help when Zannah's able to dredge up all of his trauma and drown him in it once she is able to get a distraction in. I will grant Starkiller this: he would clean house with Rule of Two Zannah given that she was being put under too much pressure by a superior swordsman (Sarro Xaj) to break out her spells until he was distracted by their battle meditation being broken. Given the amount of time that passed between that and Dynasty of Evil, if she is able to break out her spells mid-fight against Darth Bane of all people, then I don't doubt that she could reasonably pull it off against Starkiller. Anyways, tldr, good work as always Rob! Looking forward to the next one.
[[Yeahhh the problem with Starkiller in this matchup is that he's routinely been shown to be vulnerable to telepathic attacks]] "All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent - bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat." - The Force Unleashed II. --- "The Emperor appeared out of the settling smoke, glee on his face. He raised one hand as though to touch the apprentice. The apprentice felt a wave of hypnotic suggestion flow through him. - He shook his head, feeling the Emperor's influence sliding off him like oil." - The Force Unleashed. --- "This was his most challenging test. Killing Jedi had been easy by comparison. Destroying Imperial factories, likewise. Bringing down skyhooks and Star Destroyers, convincing would-be rebels of his sincerity, dueling planetary minds and other servants of the dark side - all in a day's work." - The Force Unleashed. [[especially in Force Unleashed 2 if the memory flashes and hallucinations he'd seen during the duel with Vader are interpreted to be direct psychic attacks rather than just horribly inconvenient flashbacks popping up mid-fight.]] Starkiller would have been able to feel a psychic attack from Vader and didn't note any such mental assault by Vader at any point throughout the fight. [[Not only that, but the myriad of visions that he'd been forced to come to blows with against Darth Phobos (who is pretty much a watered-down version of Zannah) in the Wii/PS2 version of the story, the Trial of Insight]] Those aren't "visions" they're holograms used during the Jedi Trials in the Coruscant Temple. [[and (even as non-canon as it is) Ben Kenobi in the Tatooine DLC for Force Unleashed 1 show that even mind-tricks from suitably powerful Jedi can throw him off his game mid-fight.]] The same DLC where Ben Kenobi is killed twice, first by being ragdolled into the engines of the Millenium Falcon and then having his spirit somehow telekinetically ragdolled and destroyed by Force Lightning?
@@williamhenning4700 My dude I was just offering my thoughts to the creator based on my interpretation of the lore (and paraphrased some stuff, yeah I know about the holograms and the Ben thing being non-canon Infinities schlock). Also, Palpatine wasn't exactly trying to straight up mind dominate Starkiller, he was trying to hit him with hypnotic suggestion-not the same thing as Zannah busting out Force Insanity.
@@kylemc2290 And I was just offering up the thoughts/lore statements that came to mind as I read your comment. Galen was about to end Vader and face Sidious right before this point. It makes no sense to suggest that Sidious wouldn't be using all of his power when attempting to mentally dominate someone who is preparing to fight him, someone who he explicitly wants to corrupt in order to replace Vader so that he may have a superior apprentice. Someone who would then go on to "drive him to desperation" in a Force Lock less than a minute later despite injuries suffered on Corellia and the energy he expended battling his way through the Death Star and Vader. And yes, it's certainly not the same thing when the culmination of the Banite line attempts telepathy vs when an early Banite carries out a mental Force feat, we understand implicitly that Sidious's efforts are going to outshine that other Banite Sith's by quite a bit.
@@williamhenning4700 Even if Galen rivaled or surpassed Vader, he's more mentally broken than Vader himself. Zannah still wins with Madness because Galen's mind is an absolute roller coaster fuckery he never properly moved past
@@lapplandkun9273 I'd say him deciding to spare Vader's life in the novel upon realizing that Vader was someone to be pitied rather than hated with that giving him the clarity and power to telekinetically dominate Vader was supposed to be that moment of "coming to terms" so to speak.
This is the best versus video you had to date, you beautifully told your arguments for both sides. It felt like you really went into this research to find out who would win and I can comfortably say you showed that Versus content isn't dried out in the slightiest. Also you are correct the first Galen is the better one but did not know about that force power kinda cool actually.
I think Bane would win. He’s physically stronger than Malak and has a greater degree of pain tolerance due to wearing Obalisk armor for a decade. Malak’s Juyo technique leaves him with little to no defensive capability while Bane can defend himself with Form III while bashing Malak’s guard with Form V. Furthermore, while Malak’s telekinesis has a bit more variety, Bane’s raw power would tear him apart and Bane’s lightning is much more lethal.
I think an interesting match up would be Master Sol vs Qui-Gon Jinn. Sol show cases excellent dueling skills against the Stranger, all skills that Match Jinn’s book/comic showings. The Stranger vs Balan Skoll would also be a cool fight. They are two of the best antagonists to come from the Disney era of Star Wars with excellent writing and acting. Jecki Lon vs Barriss Offee Ki Adi Mundi vs Lucien Draay Mundi held his own against Grevious and Ventress, and Draay was among the best fighters of his generation even if his defense wasn’t perfect.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 TPM Maul (EU). I don't think he would be as susceptible to Sith Sorcery as his TCW counterpart, as that version was mentally broken. TPM Maul, unlike Galen, was a true Sith who was incredibly strong willed, which could act as a barrier to Zannah's Sorcery, but he wouldn't be completely unhindered by it. That's why I think a match-up between Maul and Zannah could be interesting.
Well, I knew your position the second you said your take on Zannah's spells. Makes me just fill with dread listening to the narrative fight. Which was all the more justified with how far you took the Horror aspect. Not out of character I guess, but not what I'm here for. Still nice to see a new video and I like the mention of the Sith Seaker ability
Zannah's spells of madness can do a lot of harm, but the defense against it isn't so much "willpower" as it is coming to terms with the events of one's past. For past events can be traumatizing in ways, but if one has "come to terms" with them... they've essentially gotten over the trauma that the past then represents. They've accepted that it is there and recognized it... and either noted that that trauma does not control them or took control over that trauma. And that's the big thing where Bane was able to resist the attack. It wasn't so much a question of willpower but the fact that he had long since come to terms with the traumatic events of his own past. Zannah would show him his father or the mines he'd labored in and Bane would let her know that he had long used that past as part of the fuel for his strength and there is no part of his psyche that is haunted by it. And as such, there is nothing for the spell to truly effect beyond some momentary disorientation to recognize the metal illusion... And that would present a different set of problems for Marek. One would be that I don't think he ever had a moment where he was able to come to terms with the things Vader did to him. At least not before he died. Had he lived longer, it could be possible that Kota would have given him some added encouragement and mentorship that would help him overcome that past trauma... but he didn't, which would leave him open to Zannah's spells of madness. The other issue would be rarity of Zannah's skillset by the time of the Empire... Zannah's spells of madness are something that are more a part of "Sith Sorcery" that were present during much of the Old Republic Period and prior to the Battle of Ruusan. In a very lose way... the Sith Sorcerers were akin to the Jedi Consulars... in that they were more focused on the Force and its mysteries than they were on battle and lightsaber combat. Which is in part why so many of Zannah's most powerful abilities are more mental in nature. And prior to the Battle of Ruusan, the Sith were pretty evenly balanced between sorcerers and warriors. And often when they'd be in pairs, one would tend to be more the warrior while the other more the sorcerer... which it Exar Kun's relationship with Ulic Qel-Droma with Qel-Droma being the warrior to Kun's sorcery. However, by the time that Marek was operating... the vast majority of Force users were trained more as Sith Warriors, as that suited the needs of Emperor Palpatine and to a lesser degree Lord Vader. Palpatine may have dabbled in Sith Sorcery to a degree, particularly if we look things like the Dark Empire comics... but with the galaxy in his hands and the Jedi largely extinct, he wasn't as active in the sort of way that people would be attentive to it... and the Jedi Marek faced wouldn't have had comparable training. Thus, much of what Zannah would bring to the table would be an unknown to Marek, even IF he'd come to grips with the traumatic events of his past.
Yo, great to see you back man. If you're open to versus ideas. How do you feel about a three-way? Shaak Ti vs Raana Tey vs Ahsoka Tano. Three togruta females who represent the Jedi's greatest strengths, weaknesses, and the in-between. They all have incredible force capabilities but are primarily lightsaber users with incredible skills and willpower. I feel like a debate between these three would be quite a fun discussion.
@@lapplandkun9273 I'm surprised you haven't responded. You were so confident in your statement I was hoping to hear your reasoning. To be clear I'm open to the idea of Shaak Ti winning no contest. But I would like to hear why.
@@golork3267Because she's the most powerful, the most versatile, the most combatively viable of the three. Raana is an emotional trainwreck and textbook Ataru practitioner, who barely uses the Force. Ahsoka's capacities depend to Filoni's whims, but at best she's essentially a Jedi Sentinel with unremarkable Force powers. She'd probably last longer against Ti than Raana, but ultimately beaten.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 Fair assessment. But I still think it'd be a fun video as all three represent the paths a Jedi can ultimately take. But it does sound like Shaak is ultimately the strongest one here all around.
As far as Zannah’s spells, i believe he would be able to avoid the ones that attack the body and endure and eventually overcome the spells that attack his mind. That said i believe both of those can slow him down enough to give her an opening to kill him. Especially the spells of madness, which would lower his defenses to resist mentally .
Splitting hairs here, and it’s not important, but, pretty sure Zannah would not be in her mid-30s in DoE, as she was 10-ish when Bane found her, and each book has a 10-year-jump. So yeah, at most EARLY 30s. Physicals: -8:49, it’s always bizarre when you Star Wars versus video UA-camrs say a thing, and present the source, only to have the source not support what you’ve said. 😅 Zannah never blacked out during that fight with Bane. Unless you have a strange understanding of blacking out. -12:12, what?! 😅 Since when were either Zannah or Marek trained since birth? Maybe SLIGHTLY in the sense of what minimal Jedi training Zannah received as a child, and what minimal Jedi training Galen received as a child from his father. But your framing here easily makes it seem that you’re saying Bane and Vader trained each from birth, which I know you know isn’t true. Just, something you should’ve caught before releasing the video. -Yeah, Galen’s one of the more impressive humans in Star Wars when it comes to stamina and endurance; he obviously takes the physical advantage. Lightsaber combat: -17:20, context is your friend. Bane was only able to disarm Zannah because of: 1. Her injury, and much more of a factor: 2. Much of her focus was being put toward her dark side tendrils at that time, and they defeated Bane before he could strike her down. Without outside circumstances like her tripping over a freshly dug grave (also largely due to her splitting her focus between defending against Bane and charging up her spell of madness), Zannah was able to defend against everything Bane could dish out. So I think you’re underselling her-as most do-as a lightsaber duelist. -17:30, which Jedi in the Duel on Tython fight disarmed Zannah??? I genuinely don’t recall this. I’m assuming it would have been Sarro Xaj, if anyone, but even if this was the case, which I’m not sure it is, an incredibly skilled, battle-meditation-amped Jedi Knight disarming a 10-year-pre-prime Zannah should hardly be used against her when, IN her prime 10 years later, she’s able to defend against everything Bane has in his arsenal of lightsaber combat. -19:00, again, context. Zannah was a bit pressed to end the engagement quickly, and in a kind of state she wouldn’t be in against someone who wasn’t her master. -19:16, not really. Like I said above, a major factor in why she didn’t notice the freshly dug grave she ended up tripping over, was because her attention was already split between defending against BANE, and gathering her energy for one of her spells of madness. Like, it literally expressly states that in the passage too, again that you even supplied! 🤦♂️ You should not be making these kinds of amateur mistakes still. Perhaps you’ve improved since years ago, but I don’t think it’s quite enough. -19:30, yeah, it’s almost like they AREN’T inconsistent showings at all, and it’s just that you need to consider and apply context a whole lot more, huh? 😅 -Glad you’re giving Galen his due credit as a duelist; many overlook his dueling prowess by focusing so much on him being a powerhouse in The Force. -28:15-28:23, that was some rough editing there… 😬 -I agree with Galen taking the edge in saber combat, as he is the better all-around duelist, and yeah, he can likely beat opponents in lightsaber combat that Zannah probably couldn’t or at least would have a harder time with. But how it would actually go down in a lightsaber duel between the two of them is that neither would be able to leverage any advantage over the other in a dedicated, purely lightsaber duel. Force: -40:48, what do you mean Bane’s willpower is rarely seen? There are numerous feats/showcases of his willpower throughout each of his 3 books. -40:51, ALSO to consider: the spell of madness Zannah hit Bane with was, essentially, a watered-down version of the spell. She had intended to cast a charged up spell, and she was indeed gathering her power to do that during their fight, but between doing that, and fending off Bane’s onslaught, she didn’t notice the freshly dug grave, and tripped over it, which Bane capitalized on immediately. It took all of her gathered energy to stave off Bane’s offense, and she still suffered a broken rib before managing to disengage and create a lil distance before then casting her spell. In other words, with Bane being prepared to deal with this spell, and with the potency of said spell being as if she just cast it casually with no gathered power behind it, Bane still barely manages to overcome it. In a normal situation, Zannah would have charged up her spell while successfully defending against practically whatever her opponent could throw her way, and then she’d unleash her spell, which, being charged up, would easily overcome even the likes of Bane. -So I’ve struggled to wrap my head around this for years: Ambria is a dark side nexus, but as is established in numerous sources, including Path of Destruction, the dark side of Ambria was sealed away into Lake Natth by Thon, and couldn’t be called upon by dark siders. Yet the text in DoE makes it rather clear that Zannah is manifesting the dark side tendrils from residual dark side energy in Ambria. 🤷♂️ The only way I’ve been able to square this so far is that the MAJORITY of what makes Ambria a potent dark side nexus, the dark side energy that ravaged the world due to that nameless Sith sorceress’ ritual-gone-wrong (or right???)… THAT was sealed away by Thon, but Ambria was one of many planets subjected to the horrors of the war (between The Brotherhood of Darkness and The Republic and the Jedi, and later The Army of Light), and felt much pain and suffering. And so Zannah could’ve been pulling from THAT dark side energy, which obviously wouldn’t be as potent, but would still help. Given that though, I think it’s less of a stretch that Zannah could use this bit of Sith sorcery without a dark side nexus… unless of course the spell literally requires one to manifest the tendrils from residual dark side energy from a kind of nexus of it for example. Ultimately, we just don’t have enough examples of the ability, nor do we have enough info on it in general. -42:36, except, as you’ve already touched on in the video, Zannah was tricked into trying to kill Bane with her lightsaber in that fight, not through The Force, so THAT could be the rather obvious explanation for why she didn’t try to utilize her dark side tendrils then. I mean, she also didn’t use her spell of madness in that fight, so… -43:51, ok, a couple things: I haven’t played the video game in forever, but I’m pretty sure what you’re referencing is in the ‘bad’ non-official ending. The non-official ending has less merit. Also, the novelization is considered the most official telling of the events of TFU over the video game and presumably the comic as well, and nowhere in it does Sheev say that to Galen. -Thank you for addressing the star destroyer feat! Too often I’ve seen that feat misinterpreted and blown out of proportion. -A little bit of added info needs to be involved with Galen’s contention with Sidious: it took everything Galen had to do it, including even entering a state of Oneness, and it killed him, whereas Sidious emerged completely unscathed. -Fully agree Zannah takes the edge in The Force. Verdict: 57:01, wait, you think Galen>Bane in lightsaber skill? 😅 I didn’t quite get that that’s what you meant earlier. Bane has Galen beat in every form they both use. Regarding Juyo, which, of the forms Galen was most proficient in, would be his best shot against Zannah’s defense… it’s a tad ridiculous to think Galen’s>Bane in it. Not only is it Bane who gives a freaking treatise on the form in Book of Sith, but in terms of the form’s fundamentals, and how it works, being technical-as you state-isn’t really it. And Bane’s better mastery over anger than Galen would serve him better in Juyo, again, fundamentally. But beyond just Juyo, Bane was a master-level duelist as of PoD, 20 years before his prime. He only further honed his skill in those 20 years. Galen’s easily good enough to challenge Bane and Zannah, but claiming he’s a more refined duelist than Bane is pretty ludicrous. -I 100% agree with the verdict, although I find it to be less close than you seem to think it’d be. 1:02:05, nah, there’s plenty of doubt regarding Marek being the better duelist. Again, if Bane couldn’t penetrate her defenses, what makes you think Galen can? Not only that, but Zannah has 20 years of training to Galen’s 15-ish. -I agree with the overall assessment. Despite some ODD stances you have on certain things and being empirically wrong on some others, this was a step-up from most of the Star Wars versus videos of years ago. I’d say you definitely still have plenty of room to improve though, with probably your biggest and most egregious mistake being you saying things that run in complete contradiction to the sources you’re providing on the screen, or at least that the sources don’t support your claims at all. Like, that’s PRETTY bad. 😬 However overall, plenty of potential. Keep at it (as long as you strive to continuously improve).
Hey, found your channel!! And though I disagree with the verdict, in my personal opinion, you do one of if not, the best job with these videos!! Please keep them going, they are so amazing. Especially your narrative style verdict. I love to listen to your videos when I visit my girlfriend (she lives 4 hours away) and it gives me something amazing to pass the time!!
Through some recent thought I've decided to make a request, if possible can we see ulic qel droma vs darth bane? I view them as rather similar and if possible I'd like to see your take on it; even though I don't know if you take requests.
@@lapplandkun9273 And sadly, he's overrated for all the worst reasons. I just watched CRISIS' embarassing video on the TFU2 clone vs Cal Kestis. Nothing but made up math jargon bs to hype up how powerful he is, but not a word on his training and limitations. Yet that trash gets hundreds of thousands of views....
@@TinyTorah He's more of a general power scaling UA-camr who made a couple of Star Wars videos. And it's mostly nothing but made up calculations of how many Gigawatts the Starkiller clone's lighting generated to fire a gun, then how many tons the Star Destroyer he did (not) pull down weighed. It's just tedious jargon to look smarter than he actually is. No tactics, no lightsaber forms, no Force abilities, no strengths or weaknesses. Just factoids and made up math.
@@RobTerra ep 6 Luke VS Dark Forces Kyle Katarn Cal Kestis VS K'Kruhk Jaro Tapal VS K'Kruhk Savage Opress VS Cal Kestis Grandmaster Luke Skywalker or lesser skilled Luke if more close vs Darth Nilus Cal Kestis VS Ahsoka Tano Ahsoka Tano VS Galen Marek/Starkiller(I know Evannova did one but it's a bit outdated by now). Love to hear your thoughts, they're just a few bussing around my head. I'll admit some would likely be shorter but still interesting in my opinion
@@drfitz462 Dude, you overrate Cal. He's nowhere near K'Kruhk's level. He's a good character and an adept force wielder but he's nowhere near Council level much less Master level.
@@lapplandkun9273 well while I don't think he'd win I do think it'd be interesting as Cal has killed a lot of enemies who would contend with a younger K'Kruhk. While I love the Master he hasn't got a massive showcase of his feats which may make room for an argument that he could contend. Basically one of those cases where we know who should win but the evidence is lacking enough for a interesting discussion
Before watching this one, I think Zannah would win in a close fight thanks so her sorcery. AFAIK that's not something Marek has any real defense against and I think he'd be vulnerable to spells of madness. edit: yep
I feel like Malak is the better duelist then Sateley but she is vastly more powerful and skillful in the force. Keep in mind: she telepathically held the line against Valkorion for weeks. Plus her telekenisis crumbling mountain sides while still a knight and tutaminis negging lightsabers (and obviously lightning) also as a knight... thats serious power. And then she can also teleport and has extensive practical experience against sith warriors and high academic understanding of sith philosophy from her talks with Darth Marr.
Gonna drop my theory before watching the vid. Zannah, should she come out on top, will do so via her Sith spells of madness and her defensive dueling. If Galen wins it's due to his massive force power, superior dueling, or more devastating offensive abilities.
These videos are hot take central. Plagues beating revan zannah beating Galen all nonsense. Everyone here complains zannah gets no respect but there are prob the same people that try to bring down starkiller at every chance because he was powerful in the video game and beat Vader and everyone was but hurt about it.
I really like zannah, but starkiller takes on palpatine and if palpatine can't mind trick him or even blast him away with lightning i dont think zannahs madness woukd affect him without a lot of setup beforehand like she had with bane.
Depends on which iteration of Vos. Dooku, but Jerec probably puts up a good fight, and COULD take an upset victory and win via perhaps force destruction I guess.
@@daveroe4961, in that case, I’d go with Draay; I think Draay’s closer to where Vos scales via Dark Disciple, which IIRC, is a good deal above his conventional EU scaling.
Dooku- Far superior duelist. Zannah maybe able to exploit him with her sorcery but that would require time and concentration which Dooku would not allow. Don't know much about Jerec Qui Gon- While Jinn maybe slightly past his prime, he is still better than Kota who was old and out of practise for years- And him contending with Maul for a lengthy time was more impressive than Kota being recked by Apprentice Galen. Maul- For the same reasons as Dooku Bane- As an apprentice, he defeated Kas'im who was known to be the best weapon's master of the brotherhood of darkness. In the Rule of Two novel, he was against a strike team and managed to best them while he was hindered by the orbalisks while also the jedi were amplified by battle meditation. Not to mention he learnt from Darth Revan's holocron. Then you have Drew Karpyshyn himself suggesting Bane is around the same level as Prime Revan. Malak's feat and status as a sith lord doesn't compare to Bane IMO
@@SGK1206 I mean, Zannah was able to initiate her spells effectively while under attack from Darth Bane, who was far stronger & probably a good deal faster than Dooku.
Zannah vs Dooku’s a good one actually, and while I’d lean toward Zannah, I can easily see the argument for Dooku. Jerec has perhaps force destruction up his sleeve, but other than that, he’s still a good deal below even ANH Vader, whereas Galen Marek bested Vader as of TFU, which was maybe about a year or so prior to ANH. Rahm Kota vs Qui-Gon’s good. I think the winner would be dependent on if we’re talking TPM Jinn or prime Jinn. Zannah only has an EASIER time against Maul than she’d have against Marek. Bane and Zannah each>Galen Marek.
Those were NOT the same my guy. Phobos used mindprobing mid combat (quite impressive actually) to look at fears that her targets were actively afraid of. She had to dig very deep to find subconscious fear. Zannah can instead break the mind and have those fears do the work for her. Also Phobos could only cast illusions to transform herself into the target’s fears or attachments. Zannah can have the target relive past experiences. They are not the same
U cant do mind tricc in TFU in TFU2 he could use it against groups i do it all time in challenge the time he used cannon manually that was Starkiller II Aswell in TFU 1 u make lightning shield its 2 w the mind tric
Zannah was, and doubtless remains, THE Greatest of The Sith Ladies. Both a thinker AND a warrior, she,more than any other, (apart from Bane, of course) did the most for the order of the sith. She wouldn't ~simply~ "kill" Marek, she'd BUTCHER him. She'd have wiped the floor with Sidious - probably turn the entire TPM era Jedi Council to paste, single-handed. (Or just compell them all to kill themselves... She's Bad-ass like that...) Darth Zannah - 1,000,000/100 vs Starkiller. End of line. Nice work!✌🏼🥂
@@TinyTorah Not at all. Starkiller..? Was trained, basically by a "failed sith;" For all his prowess, and body count, Vader was never a True Sith Lord... unlike Bane. That alone puts Zannah LEAGUES ahead of Marek. (never mind that Zannah came from a time when both Jedi and Sith KNEW how to fight. ) Suggesting Marek could take on Zannah is right up there with the notion Sidious could throw down with Revan. I.E. not happening. ✌🏼
@@Sidragrosm -How is Vader not a ‘true Sith’? -As someone who knows plenty on Vader, and more on Bane than a vast majority of SW fans, I confidently believe Bane vs Vader would be rather close, though I more often favor Bane than Vader. -One of the earlier things you said made me think you were trolling is you said Zannah, more than any other, aside from Bane, did the most for the Sith Order? How do you figure that??? Hell, Sidious was the one to actually complete the RoT Sith goal. 🤷♂️ I’d say Plagueis and Sidious each did far more than Zannah did. All Zannah did was carry the torch. All she did was utilize what Bane had established. -I’m also curious how you think Zannah would wipe the floor with Sidious when the Banite Sith grew more and more skilled and powerful, and Zannah was the 2nd earliest RoT Sith, whereas Sidious was the last. He’s literally attributed as being the culmination of the RoT. Then you go on to claim Zannah would easily beat the entire PT-Council, when just about any one of them alone, would give her trouble. Yoda’s in the same tier as Sids though, and swats Zannah away without much trouble. -Everything you say just strikes me as someone who gets their SW info from secondhand sources like these kinds of videos instead of actually immersing themselves in the lore and actually reading the various books for example…
@@TinyTorah I OWN the darth bane Trilogy - original prints, each! Beyond that, everything Sidious did (though monumental, in it's own right!) was set forth by Zannah and Bane. As to ~why~ I say she'd waste him..? Knowledge. Mental manipulation was a stand by for Sidious. And everything he EVER learned..? Was from her work. If not for Zannah..? There'd BE no Darth Sidious.
@@Sidragrosm -Have you ONLY read The Bane Trilogy, because that might explain why you have Zannah so far above the likes of Sidious, whom solidly beats her. -While Sidious learned from far more sources than just Zannah 😅, let’s work with your logic here, so I can point out its flaws. According to your logic, since Zannah learned basically everything she knew from Bane, Bane beats Zannah, except that’s not what happened, is it? 😉
Zannah scaling to Bane and Cognus who scale above Suit Vader whom Galen scales no where near without oneness and outside interference with factual canon display of power via novel, Galen loses horribly.
Hi Ethan. It’s Noah from SWEB and FPB. 😅 Uh, no. 😬 Galen absolutely scales to Vader as of TFU, given he fairly bested him in combat. The only time Galen experienced Oneness was against Sidious shortly after his fight with Vader.
Galen Marek was older than 17. He was clearly older than just one year of age in 18BBY when Vader “adopted” him. He was a toddler, not a baby. He was at least 18-19-20 years old. It never states he was born AFTER the Clone Wars. He was definitely an adult. He was anywhere from 18-21 when he died.
Finally! A Star Wars Tuber who doesn't think Zannah's Madness spells are trash. One thing I think people also forget is Bane had like 2 decades of prep-time knowing those spells were coming whereas 90% of the verse wouldn't have that luxury.
Just started this video but this comment makes me excited. Even if she ends up losing, almost all previous versus matches that use Zannah, completely discredit all of her skills despite the books going out of their way to say how powerful and skilled she was.
Honestly I wouldn’t say her madness spells are trash, but they would be difficult for beings that have a strong mind and will or even beings that have a mastery in force sorcery. Kenobi is an example as he spent some time on a planet that did a similar thing as zannahs madness spell but was able to resist, I’d say the same with likes of reborn krayt as wyrlock did an illusion similar but he managed to break it. In terms of sorcerers, id say wyrlock is one of them along with ancient sith like naga sadow and possibly marka ragnos, with an example on the Jedi side I’d say Odan urr and Nomi sunrider, beings that have the ability of battle mind and have helped to break illusions of the ancient sith and nomi despite being in tears could still operate and cut ulic off from the force. I’m just starting the video but I do think her madness spell can do a number on Galen, he’s disciplined in his skills but a sound mind I don’t think he has or one that’d be strong enough against zannah.
@@MusicFan752if you know anything on Bane, you know he had a crazy impressive will and mind. So the fact that a watered-down spell of madness from Zannah almost took Bane out, should speak volumes for how effective her spells of madness would be against a majority of the mythos actually.
Actually, I do remember EvanNova95 and Jensaari1 giving Zannah a victory because she knows how to use spells, and her opponent was susceptible to mind games.
Exactly.
Unexpected but certainly not unwelcome. I look forward to seeing what master class craftsmanship in analysis and powerscaling you will grace us with this time
the time in which we inhabit this world is so limited, and so unforgiving that It would be my honor to offer you a fresh start, and an opportunity to save your soul. the man who saved my life Is ruler over both land and sea. King over sky and Worm, and great beyond anything mankind has ever accomplished. today is a new day, let it be a new start for you with the Almighty Jesus Christ. God awaits you✝️
I absolutely love this match up. It's is the perfect example that just because a force user has the advantage in physical might does not mean they will win if their mental strength is not as strong. I enjoyed this so much that if I find the time I'm really tempted to doing a follow-up to my last match up video. Keep up the incredible work. 👏👏
So glad to finally see someone give Zannah the respect she deserves. Would love to see Meetra Surik vs Inquisitor Jerec or Darth Traya vs Obi-Wan Kenobi
Do we have enough info on Meetra's combat techniques & force abilities?
I think Knights 2 gives enough to draw off context-wise, especially with the Revan novel.@@daveroe4961
TBH, I think Starkiller at the end of his character arc would survive Zannah's spells. As in, if she cast her strongest one and then left him alone, he wouldn't go into a coma and would break out. Eventually. Not nearly fast enough to stop her form killing him in a duel. I 100% agree that Zannah wins this fight.
0:00 - 5:28 Character backstory
6:53 Physical abilities
13:57 Martial arts and weaponry
31:40 Force abilities
53:12 Final Verdict
The whiplash when I realized this wasn’t an Evannova95 video lol
Evan is close to wrapping up his season finale xD its probably going to be involving a NJO character (fingers crossed for Saba).
@@jeremyleonjonas7657Fingers crossed its someone new and not just Kenobi, Vader, or any Jedi or Prequel/Clone Wars era Jedi or Sith
@@lapplandkun9273 it's Darth Malak vs Count Dooku
@@clonecommander_caleb it isn’t. That’s the collab he has with Jen. He says he hasn’t revealed the combatants yet
FR. They’re shockingly similar. They even both love to mispronounce things! 😅
Wuhoo! The legend returns! Can't wait to watch this and your other video, keep up the amazing work!
Yeahhh the problem with Starkiller in this matchup is that he's routinely been shown to be vulnerable to telepathic attacks-especially in Force Unleashed 2 if the memory flashes and hallucinations he'd seen during the duel with Vader are interpreted to be direct psychic attacks rather than just horribly inconvenient flashbacks popping up mid-fight. Not only that, but the myriad of visions that he'd been forced to come to blows with against Darth Phobos (who is pretty much a watered-down version of Zannah) in the Wii/PS2 version of the story, the Trial of Insight, and (even as non-canon as it is) Ben Kenobi in the Tatooine DLC for Force Unleashed 1 show that even mind-tricks from suitably powerful Jedi can throw him off his game mid-fight.
He's not breaking out battle-mind like Nomi Sundrider, he's not using a Jedi-like zen like Obi-Wan or Luke to work through it, and he's not able to martial his willpower to the extent that Bane or Vader did when faced with these types of visions to dispel them. Galen is forced to try and ride out the effects rather than actively combating them, which isn't going to help when Zannah's able to dredge up all of his trauma and drown him in it once she is able to get a distraction in. I will grant Starkiller this: he would clean house with Rule of Two Zannah given that she was being put under too much pressure by a superior swordsman (Sarro Xaj) to break out her spells until he was distracted by their battle meditation being broken. Given the amount of time that passed between that and Dynasty of Evil, if she is able to break out her spells mid-fight against Darth Bane of all people, then I don't doubt that she could reasonably pull it off against Starkiller.
Anyways, tldr, good work as always Rob! Looking forward to the next one.
[[Yeahhh the problem with Starkiller in this matchup is that he's routinely been shown to be vulnerable to telepathic attacks]]
"All the duels, all the tests, all the torturous mind games, had been to ensure his survival against every opponent - bar one. His Master. In a sense, they were still playing out the first time they had faced each other in combat." - The Force Unleashed II.
---
"The Emperor appeared out of the settling smoke, glee on his face. He raised one hand as though to touch the apprentice. The apprentice felt a wave of hypnotic suggestion flow through him.
-
He shook his head, feeling the Emperor's influence sliding off him like oil." - The Force Unleashed.
---
"This was his most challenging test. Killing Jedi had been easy by comparison. Destroying Imperial factories, likewise. Bringing down skyhooks and Star Destroyers, convincing would-be rebels of his sincerity, dueling planetary minds and other servants of the dark side - all in a day's work." - The Force Unleashed.
[[especially in Force Unleashed 2 if the memory flashes and hallucinations he'd seen during the duel with Vader are interpreted to be direct psychic attacks rather than just horribly inconvenient flashbacks popping up mid-fight.]]
Starkiller would have been able to feel a psychic attack from Vader and didn't note any such mental assault by Vader at any point throughout the fight.
[[Not only that, but the myriad of visions that he'd been forced to come to blows with against Darth Phobos (who is pretty much a watered-down version of Zannah) in the Wii/PS2 version of the story, the Trial of Insight]]
Those aren't "visions" they're holograms used during the Jedi Trials in the Coruscant Temple.
[[and (even as non-canon as it is) Ben Kenobi in the Tatooine DLC for Force Unleashed 1 show that even mind-tricks from suitably powerful Jedi can throw him off his game mid-fight.]]
The same DLC where Ben Kenobi is killed twice, first by being ragdolled into the engines of the Millenium Falcon and then having his spirit somehow telekinetically ragdolled and destroyed by Force Lightning?
@@williamhenning4700 My dude I was just offering my thoughts to the creator based on my interpretation of the lore (and paraphrased some stuff, yeah I know about the holograms and the Ben thing being non-canon Infinities schlock). Also, Palpatine wasn't exactly trying to straight up mind dominate Starkiller, he was trying to hit him with hypnotic suggestion-not the same thing as Zannah busting out Force Insanity.
@@kylemc2290 And I was just offering up the thoughts/lore statements that came to mind as I read your comment.
Galen was about to end Vader and face Sidious right before this point. It makes no sense to suggest that Sidious wouldn't be using all of his power when attempting to mentally dominate someone who is preparing to fight him, someone who he explicitly wants to corrupt in order to replace Vader so that he may have a superior apprentice. Someone who would then go on to "drive him to desperation" in a Force Lock less than a minute later despite injuries suffered on Corellia and the energy he expended battling his way through the Death Star and Vader.
And yes, it's certainly not the same thing when the culmination of the Banite line attempts telepathy vs when an early Banite carries out a mental Force feat, we understand implicitly that Sidious's efforts are going to outshine that other Banite Sith's by quite a bit.
@@williamhenning4700 Even if Galen rivaled or surpassed Vader, he's more mentally broken than Vader himself. Zannah still wins with Madness because Galen's mind is an absolute roller coaster fuckery he never properly moved past
@@lapplandkun9273 I'd say him deciding to spare Vader's life in the novel upon realizing that Vader was someone to be pitied rather than hated with that giving him the clarity and power to telekinetically dominate Vader was supposed to be that moment of "coming to terms" so to speak.
An idea for a battle!!! General Grievous vs plo koon!! It would be a very interesting fight, at least in my opinion
This is the best versus video you had to date, you beautifully told your arguments for both sides. It felt like you really went into this research to find out who would win and I can comfortably say you showed that Versus content isn't dried out in the slightiest.
Also you are correct the first Galen is the better one but did not know about that force power kinda cool actually.
I don't think Zannah would kill Marek. Once she saw what he was capable of, I think she would try to break him and make him her new apprentice.
Honestly, Cognus was far more impressive given the level she was at in DoE without ANY training.
Another excellent video! Well done!
Niiiiice. Might I request Satele Shan vs Inquisitor Jerec?
Satele stomps. lol
I disagree, they cancel out in a lot of places
@@Sultan_Vader_VI Jerec lost to a pre prime, barely properly trained Kyle Katarn. Prime Satele eats him.
@@Sultan_Vader_VISatele Shan was the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order lol
Great matchup Terra. Looking forward to your finale of Season 4.
More Star Wars Versus Series? Peak. Excited to see this come back
Absolutely love this match great choice, and welcome back hope to see more versus match in the future.
Love this video! Two of my favorite characters getting love is fun
Can you do Darth Malak vs Darth Bane?
I think Bane would win. He’s physically stronger than Malak and has a greater degree of pain tolerance due to wearing Obalisk armor for a decade. Malak’s Juyo technique leaves him with little to no defensive capability while Bane can defend himself with Form III while bashing Malak’s guard with Form V. Furthermore, while Malak’s telekinesis has a bit more variety, Bane’s raw power would tear him apart and Bane’s lightning is much more lethal.
I think an interesting match up would be Master Sol vs Qui-Gon Jinn. Sol show cases excellent dueling skills against the Stranger, all skills that Match Jinn’s book/comic showings.
The Stranger vs Balan Skoll would also be a cool fight. They are two of the best antagonists to come from the Disney era of Star Wars with excellent writing and acting.
Jecki Lon vs Barriss Offee
Ki Adi Mundi vs Lucien Draay Mundi held his own against Grevious and Ventress, and Draay was among the best fighters of his generation even if his defense wasn’t perfect.
Great video dude!
I also have a recommendation for a video. Darth Zannah vs Darth Maul.
Kinda obvious outcome, don't you think ?
Which version of Maul would you pick btw ? TPM (EU), TCW S5/Son of Dathomir, TCW S7 or Rebels ?
@@yrooxrksvi7142 TPM Maul (EU). I don't think he would be as susceptible to Sith Sorcery as his TCW counterpart, as that version was mentally broken. TPM Maul, unlike Galen, was a true Sith who was incredibly strong willed, which could act as a barrier to Zannah's Sorcery, but he wouldn't be completely unhindered by it. That's why I think a match-up between Maul and Zannah could be interesting.
Mr. Terra! I like this match up.
Well, I knew your position the second you said your take on Zannah's spells. Makes me just fill with dread listening to the narrative fight. Which was all the more justified with how far you took the Horror aspect. Not out of character I guess, but not what I'm here for. Still nice to see a new video and I like the mention of the Sith Seaker ability
Zannah's spells of madness can do a lot of harm, but the defense against it isn't so much "willpower" as it is coming to terms with the events of one's past. For past events can be traumatizing in ways, but if one has "come to terms" with them... they've essentially gotten over the trauma that the past then represents. They've accepted that it is there and recognized it... and either noted that that trauma does not control them or took control over that trauma.
And that's the big thing where Bane was able to resist the attack. It wasn't so much a question of willpower but the fact that he had long since come to terms with the traumatic events of his own past. Zannah would show him his father or the mines he'd labored in and Bane would let her know that he had long used that past as part of the fuel for his strength and there is no part of his psyche that is haunted by it. And as such, there is nothing for the spell to truly effect beyond some momentary disorientation to recognize the metal illusion...
And that would present a different set of problems for Marek. One would be that I don't think he ever had a moment where he was able to come to terms with the things Vader did to him. At least not before he died. Had he lived longer, it could be possible that Kota would have given him some added encouragement and mentorship that would help him overcome that past trauma... but he didn't, which would leave him open to Zannah's spells of madness. The other issue would be rarity of Zannah's skillset by the time of the Empire...
Zannah's spells of madness are something that are more a part of "Sith Sorcery" that were present during much of the Old Republic Period and prior to the Battle of Ruusan. In a very lose way... the Sith Sorcerers were akin to the Jedi Consulars... in that they were more focused on the Force and its mysteries than they were on battle and lightsaber combat. Which is in part why so many of Zannah's most powerful abilities are more mental in nature. And prior to the Battle of Ruusan, the Sith were pretty evenly balanced between sorcerers and warriors. And often when they'd be in pairs, one would tend to be more the warrior while the other more the sorcerer... which it Exar Kun's relationship with Ulic Qel-Droma with Qel-Droma being the warrior to Kun's sorcery.
However, by the time that Marek was operating... the vast majority of Force users were trained more as Sith Warriors, as that suited the needs of Emperor Palpatine and to a lesser degree Lord Vader. Palpatine may have dabbled in Sith Sorcery to a degree, particularly if we look things like the Dark Empire comics... but with the galaxy in his hands and the Jedi largely extinct, he wasn't as active in the sort of way that people would be attentive to it... and the Jedi Marek faced wouldn't have had comparable training. Thus, much of what Zannah would bring to the table would be an unknown to Marek, even IF he'd come to grips with the traumatic events of his past.
Hell yes. He is back again. So cool to see you tackle Galen. TFU is still among my favorite EU stories.
Yo, great to see you back man. If you're open to versus ideas. How do you feel about a three-way? Shaak Ti vs Raana Tey vs Ahsoka Tano. Three togruta females who represent the Jedi's greatest strengths, weaknesses, and the in-between. They all have incredible force capabilities but are primarily lightsaber users with incredible skills and willpower. I feel like a debate between these three would be quite a fun discussion.
Shaak Ti wins and no its not even close. Ironically, Ahsoka would outlast Tey and get flattened by Shaak Ti
@@lapplandkun9273
If you're going to be so bold to say it's a stomp I would like to hear your deduction.
@@lapplandkun9273
I'm surprised you haven't responded. You were so confident in your statement I was hoping to hear your reasoning. To be clear I'm open to the idea of Shaak Ti winning no contest. But I would like to hear why.
@@golork3267Because she's the most powerful, the most versatile, the most combatively viable of the three. Raana is an emotional trainwreck and textbook Ataru practitioner, who barely uses the Force. Ahsoka's capacities depend to Filoni's whims, but at best she's essentially a Jedi Sentinel with unremarkable Force powers. She'd probably last longer against Ti than Raana, but ultimately beaten.
@@yrooxrksvi7142
Fair assessment. But I still think it'd be a fun video as all three represent the paths a Jedi can ultimately take. But it does sound like Shaak is ultimately the strongest one here all around.
As far as Zannah’s spells, i believe he would be able to avoid the ones that attack the body and endure and eventually overcome the spells that attack his mind. That said i believe both of those can slow him down enough to give her an opening to kill him. Especially the spells of madness, which would lower his defenses to resist mentally .
Splitting hairs here, and it’s not important, but, pretty sure Zannah would not be in her mid-30s in DoE, as she was 10-ish when Bane found her, and each book has a 10-year-jump. So yeah, at most EARLY 30s.
Physicals:
-8:49, it’s always bizarre when you Star Wars versus video UA-camrs say a thing, and present the source, only to have the source not support what you’ve said. 😅
Zannah never blacked out during that fight with Bane. Unless you have a strange understanding of blacking out.
-12:12, what?! 😅 Since when were either Zannah or Marek trained since birth? Maybe SLIGHTLY in the sense of what minimal Jedi training Zannah received as a child, and what minimal Jedi training Galen received as a child from his father. But your framing here easily makes it seem that you’re saying Bane and Vader trained each from birth, which I know you know isn’t true. Just, something you should’ve caught before releasing the video.
-Yeah, Galen’s one of the more impressive humans in Star Wars when it comes to stamina and endurance; he obviously takes the physical advantage.
Lightsaber combat:
-17:20, context is your friend. Bane was only able to disarm Zannah because of:
1. Her injury, and much more of a factor:
2. Much of her focus was being put toward her dark side tendrils at that time, and they defeated Bane before he could strike her down.
Without outside circumstances like her tripping over a freshly dug grave (also largely due to her splitting her focus between defending against Bane and charging up her spell of madness), Zannah was able to defend against everything Bane could dish out. So I think you’re underselling her-as most do-as a lightsaber duelist.
-17:30, which Jedi in the Duel on Tython fight disarmed Zannah??? I genuinely don’t recall this. I’m assuming it would have been Sarro Xaj, if anyone, but even if this was the case, which I’m not sure it is, an incredibly skilled, battle-meditation-amped Jedi Knight disarming a 10-year-pre-prime Zannah should hardly be used against her when, IN her prime 10 years later, she’s able to defend against everything Bane has in his arsenal of lightsaber combat.
-19:00, again, context. Zannah was a bit pressed to end the engagement quickly, and in a kind of state she wouldn’t be in against someone who wasn’t her master.
-19:16, not really. Like I said above, a major factor in why she didn’t notice the freshly dug grave she ended up tripping over, was because her attention was already split between defending against BANE, and gathering her energy for one of her spells of madness.
Like, it literally expressly states that in the passage too, again that you even supplied! 🤦♂️
You should not be making these kinds of amateur mistakes still. Perhaps you’ve improved since years ago, but I don’t think it’s quite enough.
-19:30, yeah, it’s almost like they AREN’T inconsistent showings at all, and it’s just that you need to consider and apply context a whole lot more, huh? 😅
-Glad you’re giving Galen his due credit as a duelist; many overlook his dueling prowess by focusing so much on him being a powerhouse in The Force.
-28:15-28:23, that was some rough editing there… 😬
-I agree with Galen taking the edge in saber combat, as he is the better all-around duelist, and yeah, he can likely beat opponents in lightsaber combat that Zannah probably couldn’t or at least would have a harder time with. But how it would actually go down in a lightsaber duel between the two of them is that neither would be able to leverage any advantage over the other in a dedicated, purely lightsaber duel.
Force:
-40:48, what do you mean Bane’s willpower is rarely seen? There are numerous feats/showcases of his willpower throughout each of his 3 books.
-40:51, ALSO to consider: the spell of madness Zannah hit Bane with was, essentially, a watered-down version of the spell. She had intended to cast a charged up spell, and she was indeed gathering her power to do that during their fight, but between doing that, and fending off Bane’s onslaught, she didn’t notice the freshly dug grave, and tripped over it, which Bane capitalized on immediately. It took all of her gathered energy to stave off Bane’s offense, and she still suffered a broken rib before managing to disengage and create a lil distance before then casting her spell. In other words, with Bane being prepared to deal with this spell, and with the potency of said spell being as if she just cast it casually with no gathered power behind it, Bane still barely manages to overcome it. In a normal situation, Zannah would have charged up her spell while successfully defending against practically whatever her opponent could throw her way, and then she’d unleash her spell, which, being charged up, would easily overcome even the likes of Bane.
-So I’ve struggled to wrap my head around this for years: Ambria is a dark side nexus, but as is established in numerous sources, including Path of Destruction, the dark side of Ambria was sealed away into Lake Natth by Thon, and couldn’t be called upon by dark siders. Yet the text in DoE makes it rather clear that Zannah is manifesting the dark side tendrils from residual dark side energy in Ambria. 🤷♂️
The only way I’ve been able to square this so far is that the MAJORITY of what makes Ambria a potent dark side nexus, the dark side energy that ravaged the world due to that nameless Sith sorceress’ ritual-gone-wrong (or right???)… THAT was sealed away by Thon, but Ambria was one of many planets subjected to the horrors of the war (between The Brotherhood of Darkness and The Republic and the Jedi, and later The Army of Light), and felt much pain and suffering. And so Zannah could’ve been pulling from THAT dark side energy, which obviously wouldn’t be as potent, but would still help. Given that though, I think it’s less of a stretch that Zannah could use this bit of Sith sorcery without a dark side nexus… unless of course the spell literally requires one to manifest the tendrils from residual dark side energy from a kind of nexus of it for example. Ultimately, we just don’t have enough examples of the ability, nor do we have enough info on it in general.
-42:36, except, as you’ve already touched on in the video, Zannah was tricked into trying to kill Bane with her lightsaber in that fight, not through The Force, so THAT could be the rather obvious explanation for why she didn’t try to utilize her dark side tendrils then. I mean, she also didn’t use her spell of madness in that fight, so…
-43:51, ok, a couple things: I haven’t played the video game in forever, but I’m pretty sure what you’re referencing is in the ‘bad’ non-official ending. The non-official ending has less merit. Also, the novelization is considered the most official telling of the events of TFU over the video game and presumably the comic as well, and nowhere in it does Sheev say that to Galen.
-Thank you for addressing the star destroyer feat! Too often I’ve seen that feat misinterpreted and blown out of proportion.
-A little bit of added info needs to be involved with Galen’s contention with Sidious: it took everything Galen had to do it, including even entering a state of Oneness, and it killed him, whereas Sidious emerged completely unscathed.
-Fully agree Zannah takes the edge in The Force.
Verdict:
57:01, wait, you think Galen>Bane in lightsaber skill? 😅
I didn’t quite get that that’s what you meant earlier. Bane has Galen beat in every form they both use. Regarding Juyo, which, of the forms Galen was most proficient in, would be his best shot against Zannah’s defense… it’s a tad ridiculous to think Galen’s>Bane in it. Not only is it Bane who gives a freaking treatise on the form in Book of Sith, but in terms of the form’s fundamentals, and how it works, being technical-as you state-isn’t really it. And Bane’s better mastery over anger than Galen would serve him better in Juyo, again, fundamentally. But beyond just Juyo, Bane was a master-level duelist as of PoD, 20 years before his prime. He only further honed his skill in those 20 years. Galen’s easily good enough to challenge Bane and Zannah, but claiming he’s a more refined duelist than Bane is pretty ludicrous.
-I 100% agree with the verdict, although I find it to be less close than you seem to think it’d be.
1:02:05, nah, there’s plenty of doubt regarding Marek being the better duelist. Again, if Bane couldn’t penetrate her defenses, what makes you think Galen can? Not only that, but Zannah has 20 years of training to Galen’s 15-ish.
-I agree with the overall assessment. Despite some ODD stances you have on certain things and being empirically wrong on some others, this was a step-up from most of the Star Wars versus videos of years ago. I’d say you definitely still have plenty of room to improve though, with probably your biggest and most egregious mistake being you saying things that run in complete contradiction to the sources you’re providing on the screen, or at least that the sources don’t support your claims at all. Like, that’s PRETTY bad. 😬
However overall, plenty of potential. Keep at it (as long as you strive to continuously improve).
LOCKED IN
Hey, found your channel!! And though I disagree with the verdict, in my personal opinion, you do one of if not, the best job with these videos!! Please keep them going, they are so amazing. Especially your narrative style verdict. I love to listen to your videos when I visit my girlfriend (she lives 4 hours away) and it gives me something amazing to pass the time!!
Thanks for the kind words!
Through some recent thought I've decided to make a request, if possible can we see ulic qel droma vs darth bane? I view them as rather similar and if possible I'd like to see your take on it; even though I don't know if you take requests.
I'd be down to see a match involving Kreia there
Starkiller has to be most underrated character ever 😂
Why exactly do you say that???
No. He's quite possibly the most overrated Legends character due to his feats of beating Vader when Vader wasn't even in his prime
@@lapplandkun9273 And sadly, he's overrated for all the worst reasons. I just watched CRISIS' embarassing video on the TFU2 clone vs Cal Kestis. Nothing but made up math jargon bs to hype up how powerful he is, but not a word on his training and limitations. Yet that trash gets hundreds of thousands of views....
@@yrooxrksvi7142, I’ve literally never heard of this person. Is this CRISIS yet another horrible SW Versus Video UA-camr I need to keep in check? 😅
@@TinyTorah He's more of a general power scaling UA-camr who made a couple of Star Wars videos. And it's mostly nothing but made up calculations of how many Gigawatts the Starkiller clone's lighting generated to fire a gun, then how many tons the Star Destroyer he did (not) pull down weighed. It's just tedious jargon to look smarter than he actually is. No tactics, no lightsaber forms, no Force abilities, no strengths or weaknesses. Just factoids and made up math.
Sith wizard vs Sith brawler, a contrast match-up
Let us know if your taking requests I got a few ideas if interested
Always open to suggestions!
@@RobTerra ep 6 Luke VS Dark Forces Kyle Katarn
Cal Kestis VS K'Kruhk
Jaro Tapal VS K'Kruhk
Savage Opress VS Cal Kestis
Grandmaster Luke Skywalker or lesser skilled Luke if more close vs Darth Nilus
Cal Kestis VS Ahsoka Tano
Ahsoka Tano VS Galen Marek/Starkiller(I know Evannova did one but it's a bit outdated by now).
Love to hear your thoughts, they're just a few bussing around my head. I'll admit some would likely be shorter but still interesting in my opinion
@@drfitz462 Dude, you overrate Cal. He's nowhere near K'Kruhk's level. He's a good character and an adept force wielder but he's nowhere near Council level much less Master level.
@@lapplandkun9273 well while I don't think he'd win I do think it'd be interesting as Cal has killed a lot of enemies who would contend with a younger K'Kruhk. While I love the Master he hasn't got a massive showcase of his feats which may make room for an argument that he could contend. Basically one of those cases where we know who should win but the evidence is lacking enough for a interesting discussion
@@drfitz462K'Kruhk vs. Jaro Tapal made me laugh. 😂 Not bad, dude. I always wanted a slaughter vs. match before.
Before watching this one, I think Zannah would win in a close fight thanks so her sorcery. AFAIK that's not something Marek has any real defense against and I think he'd be vulnerable to spells of madness.
edit: yep
Here’s an interesting matchup: Darth Malak vs Satele Shan. Since Malak was able to beat Bastila in combat, how would he fair against her descendant?
I feel like Malak is the better duelist then Sateley but she is vastly more powerful and skillful in the force. Keep in mind: she telepathically held the line against Valkorion for weeks. Plus her telekenisis crumbling mountain sides while still a knight and tutaminis negging lightsabers (and obviously lightning) also as a knight... thats serious power. And then she can also teleport and has extensive practical experience against sith warriors and high academic understanding of sith philosophy from her talks with Darth Marr.
Gonna drop my theory before watching the vid. Zannah, should she come out on top, will do so via her Sith spells of madness and her defensive dueling. If Galen wins it's due to his massive force power, superior dueling, or more devastating offensive abilities.
ah yes my favorite sith zannah
i wanna see tavion from JK2 vs zannah
Tavion is woefully outclassed. 😅
Tavion’s closer to, perhaps, Set Harth, than Zannah.
@@TinyTorahlmao fair
@@WeaponsRemorse, Tavion specifically possessed by Marka Ragnos vs. Zannah would be at least worth discussing though. 👍
@@TinyTorah that is very true
W vid
A comment for the algorithm gods
A'Sharad Hett Vs Darth Maul?
These videos are hot take central. Plagues beating revan zannah beating Galen all nonsense. Everyone here complains zannah gets no respect but there are prob the same people that try to bring down starkiller at every chance because he was powerful in the video game and beat Vader and everyone was but hurt about it.
Except the novelizations of TFU I and II exist…
Except Galen doesn't scale to Vader. The novelization is the true version of events obviously but people only watch the TFU gameplay
@@lapplandkun9273, Galen scales to TFU I Vader, but according to numerous sources, Vader grows notably more skilled powerful between then and RotJ. 👍
I really like zannah, but starkiller takes on palpatine and if palpatine can't mind trick him or even blast him away with lightning i dont think zannahs madness woukd affect him without a lot of setup beforehand like she had with bane.
Quinlan Vos vs Lucien Draay?
Jerec vs Count Dooku?
Depends on which iteration of Vos.
Dooku, but Jerec probably puts up a good fight, and COULD take an upset victory and win via perhaps force destruction I guess.
I was thinking Vos Circa Order 66 in the Classic Expanded Universe comics.
@@daveroe4961, in that case, I’d go with Draay; I think Draay’s closer to where Vos scales via Dark Disciple, which IIRC, is a good deal above his conventional EU scaling.
@@TinyTorahDark Disciple is garbage, Vos defeating Dooku was sheer plot convenience.
@@yrooxrksvi7142 I've never read it, and based on almost everything I know about it, I don't think I ever will read it. XD
Zannah vs Dooku
Galen marek vs inquisitor Jerec
Rahm Kota vs Qui gon jin
Maul vs Zannah
Bane vs Malek
Maul and Zannah would be interesting
Dooku would cook Zannah at perfect medium rare
Dooku- Far superior duelist. Zannah maybe able to exploit him with her sorcery but that would require time and concentration which Dooku would not allow.
Don't know much about Jerec
Qui Gon- While Jinn maybe slightly past his prime, he is still better than Kota who was old and out of practise for years- And him contending with Maul for a lengthy time was more impressive than Kota being recked by Apprentice Galen.
Maul- For the same reasons as Dooku
Bane- As an apprentice, he defeated Kas'im who was known to be the best weapon's master of the brotherhood of darkness. In the Rule of Two novel, he was against a strike team and managed to best them while he was hindered by the orbalisks while also the jedi were amplified by battle meditation. Not to mention he learnt from Darth Revan's holocron. Then you have Drew Karpyshyn himself suggesting Bane is around the same level as Prime Revan.
Malak's feat and status as a sith lord doesn't compare to Bane IMO
@@SGK1206 I mean, Zannah was able to initiate her spells effectively while under attack from Darth Bane, who was far stronger & probably a good deal faster than Dooku.
Zannah vs Dooku’s a good one actually, and while I’d lean toward Zannah, I can easily see the argument for Dooku.
Jerec has perhaps force destruction up his sleeve, but other than that, he’s still a good deal below even ANH Vader, whereas Galen Marek bested Vader as of TFU, which was maybe about a year or so prior to ANH.
Rahm Kota vs Qui-Gon’s good. I think the winner would be dependent on if we’re talking TPM Jinn or prime Jinn.
Zannah only has an EASIER time against Maul than she’d have against Marek.
Bane and Zannah each>Galen Marek.
Hold on starkiller defeated Phobos and she was using illusions on him
Those were NOT the same my guy. Phobos used mindprobing mid combat (quite impressive actually) to look at fears that her targets were actively afraid of. She had to dig very deep to find subconscious fear. Zannah can instead break the mind and have those fears do the work for her. Also Phobos could only cast illusions to transform herself into the target’s fears or attachments. Zannah can have the target relive past experiences. They are not the same
U cant do mind tricc in TFU in TFU2 he could use it against groups i do it all time in challenge the time he used cannon manually that was Starkiller II Aswell in TFU 1 u make lightning shield its 2 w the mind tric
Zannah was, and doubtless remains, THE Greatest of The Sith Ladies. Both a thinker AND a warrior, she,more than any other, (apart from Bane, of course) did the most for the order of the sith. She wouldn't ~simply~ "kill" Marek, she'd BUTCHER him. She'd have wiped the floor with Sidious - probably turn the entire TPM era Jedi Council to paste, single-handed. (Or just compell them all to kill themselves... She's Bad-ass like that...)
Darth Zannah - 1,000,000/100 vs Starkiller. End of line.
Nice work!✌🏼🥂
Troll comment???
@@TinyTorah Not at all. Starkiller..? Was trained, basically by a "failed sith;" For all his prowess, and body count, Vader was never a True Sith Lord... unlike Bane. That alone puts Zannah LEAGUES ahead of Marek. (never mind that Zannah came from a time when both Jedi and Sith KNEW how to fight. )
Suggesting Marek could take on Zannah is right up there with the notion Sidious could throw down with Revan. I.E. not happening. ✌🏼
@@Sidragrosm
-How is Vader not a ‘true Sith’?
-As someone who knows plenty on Vader, and more on Bane than a vast majority of SW fans, I confidently believe Bane vs Vader would be rather close, though I more often favor Bane than Vader.
-One of the earlier things you said made me think you were trolling is you said Zannah, more than any other, aside from Bane, did the most for the Sith Order? How do you figure that??? Hell, Sidious was the one to actually complete the RoT Sith goal. 🤷♂️
I’d say Plagueis and Sidious each did far more than Zannah did. All Zannah did was carry the torch. All she did was utilize what Bane had established.
-I’m also curious how you think Zannah would wipe the floor with Sidious when the Banite Sith grew more and more skilled and powerful, and Zannah was the 2nd earliest RoT Sith, whereas Sidious was the last. He’s literally attributed as being the culmination of the RoT. Then you go on to claim Zannah would easily beat the entire PT-Council, when just about any one of them alone, would give her trouble. Yoda’s in the same tier as Sids though, and swats Zannah away without much trouble.
-Everything you say just strikes me as someone who gets their SW info from secondhand sources like these kinds of videos instead of actually immersing themselves in the lore and actually reading the various books for example…
@@TinyTorah I OWN the darth bane Trilogy - original prints, each! Beyond that, everything Sidious did (though monumental, in it's own right!) was set forth by Zannah and Bane. As to ~why~ I say she'd waste him..? Knowledge. Mental manipulation was a stand by for Sidious. And everything he EVER learned..? Was from her work. If not for Zannah..? There'd BE no Darth Sidious.
@@Sidragrosm
-Have you ONLY read The Bane Trilogy, because that might explain why you have Zannah so far above the likes of Sidious, whom solidly beats her.
-While Sidious learned from far more sources than just Zannah 😅, let’s work with your logic here, so I can point out its flaws. According to your logic, since Zannah learned basically everything she knew from Bane, Bane beats Zannah, except that’s not what happened, is it? 😉
Zannah scaling to Bane and Cognus who scale above Suit Vader whom Galen scales no where near without oneness and outside interference with factual canon display of power via novel, Galen loses horribly.
Hi Ethan. It’s Noah from SWEB and FPB. 😅
Uh, no. 😬
Galen absolutely scales to Vader as of TFU, given he fairly bested him in combat. The only time Galen experienced Oneness was against Sidious shortly after his fight with Vader.
Galen Marek was older than 17. He was clearly older than just one year of age in 18BBY when Vader “adopted” him. He was a toddler, not a baby. He was at least 18-19-20 years old. It never states he was born AFTER the Clone Wars. He was definitely an adult. He was anywhere from 18-21 when he died.