1989 Ford Taurus SHO could be considered as the 1st American Super Saloon (Sedan). It was powered by a 3.0L V6 generating 220bhp and 200lb-ft of torque. Top speed was 143mph.
LOL, NO!!!!! A front wheel drive car IS NOT a sport sedan. Besides there was earlier stuff anyway. My pick for first American sport sedan would be the Pontiac Tempest. The Tempest was small for it's time 4 door sedan with an independent rear suspension, a rear mounted transaxle, 50/50 weight distribution, etc. Specifically if choosing a specific version the 1963 Super Duty, but only 12 of those were made. More production would be a 63 with the 4 speed and 326-V8, they scooted.
LOL, NO!!!! A two door is not a true sedan. So by both our logics, Camisa is right. The Cadillac CTS-V might actually be the first true RWD, 4 door sports sedan.
snek Fair enough, there are plenty of other reasons it’s not “sport”. Simply being RWD and having a big motor doesn’t mean it’s a sport sedan. But hey, you have an opinion and I appreciate you sharing it.
Datsun 510 and the Alfa Romeo Alfetta sedan (1972) were two greats you missed. The Alfa was very exotic for an everyman's car with a transaxle, dedion rear end and inboard rear disc brakes. They are one on the best driving Alfas that nobody knows about.
Had a rusty Alfetta as a student, then scored an Alfetta GTV6 in my first year undergrad in Edinburgh (swapped for a race bike). I've owned many Alfa's since, but love the 166...... Busso....
The 510 was very lacking in power for a sports sedan but god was it fun to drive... i was hoping they would bring in the 510 to the discussion because of how fun to drive i think they focused way to much on power and not on joy of driving
@@centralems40736 Yep, the 510 didn't have tons of power, but then neither did the 2002, which was mentioned numerous times. The Datsun and the BMW were major rivals in racing, and were pretty evenly matched.
@@OpiceSF evenly matched in Motorsports? Not really. close in construction ? Kind of ... Nissan literally copied the 2002 buy making the generic 510. Literally, the suspension is exactly the same. Nissan wanted a slice of the tin top market...... Yes the 510 was successful in trans am and out performed the 2002, but was because 1. Pete Brock (enough said) 2. Factory budget. 3. SCCA severely handicapped the 2002 by banning all FIA approved performance parts the were being used in Europe( a weak theory of mine is Alfa lobbied) 4. No bmw factory support , due to it's already campaign in Europe and BMW was focusing on the CSL for USA 4. All the racers who raced a 2002 were literally dealership owners, not pros. In Europe the 2002 was Wrc rally champion, world touring car champion a few times, fighting the alfas, European touring car champion a few times, again fighting the alfas, won the first two 24h nurburings races and won a class win at the 1976 LeMans, beating the it's bigger brother, the CSL and Ford capris......
Argh I was listening to this in Podcast form yelling at the stereo waiting for you guys to figure out there's a country South of Asia you may have heard of that used to make some pretty amazing cars... If there was any episode where you guys could consider Australian content, this was it. Aussie Ford Falcon 'GT'/'GT-HO', and GM-H Torana 'SL/R 5000', and 'L34'/'A9X'. High powered, mid and compact sized V8 sedans. A hundred times more worthy of being on this list than a 300 SEL 6.3L Benz! Love the podcast, but you broke my heart on this one.
Man, I always get fuzzy feelings when I hear Jason talk about BMW’s “golden era.” His opinions on this topic are so accurate. You can get in these cars that are beat up from that era (E46, E39,E38) and if the engine is running ok and the suspension isn’t totally shot, it’s a revelatory driving experience. From the engine feel to the steering to the way the car feels around you, it’s like you’re meeting an old best friend that you haven’t seen for years. Great discussion, guys! I was thinking to suggest for a future Carmudgeon episode where you guys compare the current 3,5,7 series to the golden era cars and show what made the old cars so special. Especially the G30 vs. the E39. People say to get over those old cars because technology has progressed, but there’s that special feeling that’s gone. There really aren’t that many videos where there’s a direct comparison between the generations of cars.
28:50 1961 Pontiac Tempest, smaller for the American market, a true 4 door sedan, independent rear suspension, a rear mounted transaxle, 50/50 weight distribution, 215 CI aluminum block and head V8. Or in 62 a true good 4 speed and a larger V8. For Japanese how can you not think of the Datsun 510(Nissan Bluebird), if the BMW 2002 counts then so does the 510. Specifically the 1.8L SSS version.
Don't know if you would say it's a sports sedan or a muscle sedan. But the 1967 Ford Falcon XR GT. Was homologated from the Australian racing program with the first gen mustang GT running gear in a daily family sedan. Even ford America though it was a rediculous idea to use that running gear and race endurance road racing series in a family car.
@@dudndadn12212 even Aston Martin with 300k got to have the imperfection-character, those who buy ones doesn't care about the nitty-bitty or it's sticker price along they got the expected ride. Same happens with Jaguar, except they produce more cars-less exclusive
53 minutes? What a great way to end my day! I'm pretty sure Nissan put the S20 in the PGC-10 (sedan) Hakosuka, I believe it launched in early 1969. I think it was only a couple of years later that it was fitted to the KPGC-10 (coupé).
It was actually the sedans that collected the majority of the Hakosuka's legendary 50 race victories. Edit: For that matter, the S54 Prince Skyline GT that went before it could stake its claim to being first. Inline six with triple webers, limited slip differential and front disc brakes in 1963. That car was competitive against the Porsche 904.
As a recent Alfa Giulia Ti Sport Q4 owner I love the way you guys started with Alfa as the Sports Sedan inventor then circled back to the Giulia. Given weight is our enemy I am good with the "lack of luxury." Heated leather seats, a sunroof for open air motoring, and a decent stereo is all I need for luxury. The driving experience with the Giulia is the most engaging I've ever experienced. There is a connection, or intimacy with the car that is very satisfying -- this is what the sport sedan is all about.
So to update you guys, the Hakosuka GT-R was available in four door guise, which if you don't count it's Prince predecessor as a sports sedan would count as first except! The Datsun 510 would probably also count with its SCCA provenance aaaaand it's JDM Bluebird sibling being sold in SSS form. Also I vote Taurus SHO as the first American Sports Sedan.
I honestly don't know shit about cars (pedal to the right=go, middle=stop, left=something in between), but the Alfa @5:39 and the BMW @7:57 made me smile. Those are gorgeous cars. Jay & DT-S, another great episode!
Lotus with colaboration with GM Europe (Vauxhal/Opel) in 1990 built Vauxhal/Lotus Carlton, Opel Omega with twin turbo v6 377hp 419lbft with 6speed manual capable of hitting 176mph.
You've missed a whole hemisphere in your sport sedan assessments. I'm not going to say that they were sophisticated but the Australians had genuinely fast 4 door sedans that were able to corner (maybe not brake) in the XR an XT GT sedans in the late 60's (they got a bit fat in the XW an XY series). I've driven all the Ford GTs and I love the 80s and 90s BMW products, plus many of the Holden Brock examples that were genuine world class handling fast sedans.
Some great early ones: Ford (Lotus) Cortina, Renault R8 Gordini, Triumph Dolomite Sprint, Ford Escort Mk1 (RS2000) Some always forgotten later ones: Peugeot 405 Mi 16, Lancia 8.32, Ford Sierra RS Cosworth American ones: Didn't they race Ford Falcons in the BTCC and Australia? Modern ones: AMG GT 4 door, Panamera and RS7.
My father had a 6.3 and I drove it through high school and many times over the years he owned it. He refused to let me drive it until I went to Bondurant at Sears Point before I got my license (1975). They asked me what cars I'd be driving and when I said one of them would be a 6.3, they immediately taught me about the dreaded swing axle. No, they weren't sporty, but you could hustle one on a backroad if you knew how far you could push it and how to respect the swing axle. My dad drove it until 1990, when he was t-boned by a red light runner on Hwy 68. I still miss it.
Mercedes-Benz 6.3. A past employer had a '72 US-model gathering dust in the back of the shop. Having grown up with 60's and 70's muscle cars meant I hadn't a clue about this Teutonic beast until a coworker filled me in. One look at the massive V8--the intake manifold is modern art--meant I had to drive it. After pleading with the boss to let me fix it he agreed. I installed a trans and rear brakes, did a tune (yes, including valve adjustment, setting the dual points, etc.), and it was back on the streets of San Francisco. Returning from a parts run to Oakland across the old Bay Bridge, I turned on to the Embarcadero Freeway and hammered it. Damn!!! Yes, 3900lbs but also 434 lb/ft of torque. It went from 40 to over a hundred in a few blinks.That car did everything well.
Jason picked the wrong forbidden fruit recent vintage Alfa Romeo. The 159 is gorgeous, but not great to drive really. What he should pick is the brutal 156 GTA, or the ONE HE DROVE AND LIKED which was the 155 2.5 V6. Totally biased, but I love that car and it handles like no FWD car should.
Thanks to Jason’s MT piece and a few others picked up a 17ss manual. Loved it, but it was just too big. From there a F80 M3 comp package, fast a f, but lacked any soul. Now back in a E39 M5 and could not be happier.
USA Taurus SHO- 300 hp Yamaha engine detuned to 225 hp. Fast enough to scare you at that time. They did work on the chassis and brakes a little, but mostly it was the engine. A sleeper. The later versions had over 50 % more power before Ford pulled the plug- but the original is the best.. Audi S4. BMW gets all the credit but Audi with the S4 or even S8 (as used in the film Ronin) certainly produced great sport sedans decades ago. Fast and capable. Peugot 505 STI. - tight, sporty sedan. Test drove one in 1986. The BMW 1600 was special. my third car ever. You didn't mention Lancia. Thinking any sedan they made back in the day was a sports sedan. Sadly not now.
Wasnt the Galaxy raced in the touring car class in Europe in the 60's? That had a 4 door variant. I'm pretty sure Ford had other sporty sedan variants in the UK and Australia, like the Capris, Escort and Falcon.
There were many Japanese sports sedan which predated the Altezza... Datsun Bluebird (510, 910 in SSS form), Toyota Chaser/Cresta (RX60 and onward)/ Corolla-Sprinter (AE80 and onward with the 4A-GE engine), Mazda Luce (from 1st Gen in 1960s and onward)/MS8/Millennia/Capella ZI-R, Nissan Sunny GTS & VR-Z/ Primera TE-V / Nissan Skyline (up to 34 series), Mitsubishi Lancer EX 2000 Turbo/ Lancer Evolution/ Galant 2000 GSR / Galant VR-4 / Emeraude, Isuzu Gemini ZZ, and we definitely can't forget the ones everyone loves to hate, the Honda Civic SiR / Accord SiR . And this is my no means an exhaustive list
I remember asking Jonny on FB about how would compare the SS to the E39 M5 because I’ve read that comparison in Automobiles Magazine and I was thinking MT should do a video about it. Little I knew that it was a certain J.Cammisa that wrote that article and was now working for MT, joined the discussion and said « yeah we should do that! ». I’m not in any way saying that I played any role in the creation of this epic MT video but it’s still one of my favorite.
If my IS350 F-sport had a manual, it would be just about perfect. It's a joy to drive at any speed, and really shines when being pushed through the corners. It's a Toyota at heart so I'm not worried about it falling apart on me or leaving me stranded. It felt better than the 340i I test drove while cross-shopping; and the 340i was a 6mt and obviously had more power to boot.
The Alfa Romeo Giulietta was the inventor and pioneer of the first sports sedan launched back in 1955! 17 years before BMW!! when it launched the 5 Series E12 in 1972.
I had an e39 M5 that ended up getting totaled. I miss that car like you might miss an amputated testicle. And now I can't find another one in good shape with relatively few miles for less than $55k. I followed up the loss of my M5 by buying a 2013 Ford Taurus SHO, which was a very good car, but holy shit the depreciation was atrocious.
Jason/Derek: I own an Alfa Romeo 159 (as you may guess!) - it's not dynamically 'terrible', just lacklustre. It's very heavy and even the raciest engine it had (A 260hp V6) isn't enough to rush it. Handles fine but it's pretty uninspiring and a bit boaty. It does look stunning though and it's very plush inside; more a luxury 4-door than a sporting one. If you want modern Alfa sedans that drive well then you're looking at the 156 GTA (which is wonderful apart from the stock spring/damper combo is off) and the 155 Q4 which is basically a re-bodied Delta Integrale HF. My vote goes for the 156 because it has a 3.2 Busso V6 and the most beautiful leather seats in any modern production car. These shows keep getting longer and I couldn't be happier!
The sho Taurus was missed. even the contour svt which was amazing for a sports sedan and if we get into something with out a size limit on four doors, The Evo and sti are exactly the definition of sports sedan you're talking about.
I think Alfa started it with the 1900 berlina (1950), later joined by 1900 TI and TI Super. For Japanese sport sedans, Prince Skyline GT (S54 series, 1964). It had G7 straight 6 from the larger Gloria model. GTA had single carb, while GTB was equipped with triple Weber 40 DCOEs. I'd like to mention some great sport (sporty) sedans you didn't talk about (that I can think of): Lancia Aurelia berlinas (1950-) Lancia Fulvia berlinas Lancia Beta Trevi Volumetrico Lancia Thema 8.32 & i.e. Turbo Fiat 124 Special (with Lampredi DOHC) Fiat Croma Turbo All transaxle Alfa sedans (1972 - 1992) Alfa 164 Alfa 156 Jaguar X300/X308 XJRs W124 500E/E500 W202-based AMG cars (C36, C43 and C55 - pretty much the beginning of AMG history for the US) Isuzu Bellett sedans Isuzu Geminis I don't know much about American cars.
The first American sport sedan is probably the Pontiac 6000STE, launched in 1983. Activity five Brighton sequential, multi port, fuel injection, four-wheel disc brakes, factory Bilstein struts and shocks with automatic rear leveling. A five speed manual Getrag gearbox was available.
From Japan, Datsun 410 Bluebird with 1.6l engine and 980kg weight in 60s and in 70s Mazda RX-2 with rotary engine and limited RS sport version in South Africa. Nissan also did Skyline in 90s in SA with L28 motor and better suspension. Was used as basis for saloon racing. Was fun to drive as narrow tires and good torque... Ford Cortina and Sierra in SA was also tuned to enable competition entry, kind of homologation if you like...
The 1994 Impala SS american, then the 1998 GS400 is what started the current hp sedan war when it killed the benz and bmw. Right after that we got the M5 and E55. My favorite drivers sedan is my Jaguar XFR. No lag, torque vectoring diff, smooth ride, 15in brakes and gorgeous exhaust note and beautiful inside and out
Yeah FWD is not ideal, but the manual trans TLs got an upgraded limited slip differential as well as upgraded suspension over the autos, which helps deal with the torque steer/understeer. Also I was thinking more about midsize sedans, 3 series are tiny lol
Hi Jason, I am not ‘ Francais!!’ But you should do an episode on Citroen, maybe the SM or the DS yet I think the 2cv and the Ami 6 and 8 ( none existent in the US ) as well as the ZX, XM and my favorite the CX deserves some time. I know you can’t review every car but Citroen, as far as I am concerned is the only French ( mentioned with a French accent !) car manufacturer that deserves some time. Innovative and daring!!. Keep up the good work
Lincoln LS was an American (partly) sport sedan 3.9 DOHC V8. 5spd auto or manual for certain years. praised for it's handling at the time. Ford just didn't update it to keep it competitive.
I know most muscle cars are 2 door (even though the first muscle car, the 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 was a sedan) but you should consider older muscles as important for the history of sport sedans.
4 years late, but my contribution: the earliest American Sports Sedan was the 2nd Gen 1965+ Chevy Corvair as evidenced its significant suspension tweaks which were put to good use on track by the Yenko Stinger and the Fitch Sprint cars in SCCA. While it may be a car that draws strong negative opinions, it was in the mix and like many GM products "it could have been great with one more generation".
First American sports sedan: I'd argue for the 1965 Corvair Sport Sedan (yes, they actually called it a sports sedan). Available with an air-cooled flat six with four carbs and 140 HP, four speed manual and an all independent suspension. And a four-door hardtop. People remember the coupes (as they were great looking) but there was a four door. Car and Driver raved about the handling and roadability of the second gen Corvair.
As far as coining it a sports sedan that may be true! However I rather think that the 1952 Hudson Hornet which was also a true sedan was an actual sports sedan.
I'd argue a better example than the Corvair is the 1961 Pontiac Tempest. Smaller for the American market, a true 4 door sedan, independent rear suspension, a rear mounted transaxle, 50/50 weight distribution, 215 CI aluminum block and head V8. Or in 62 a true good 4 speed and a larger V8. We can go older though for decent candidates, the Studebaker Lark as early as '59, a small 4 door sedan with up to a 289ci overhead valve 4bbl V8.
That was an interesting episode. I do have a few doubts. 1. When you say sports sedans, does it mean that it should have four doors? Because if so, the Hakosuka Skyline GTR did come with four doors. 2. You were lost when you were thinking of cool modern day sports sedans. How about the latest Jag XJ and the XE lineup? What are your thoughts?
Jason: "What is there to say about the sport sedan?"
Carmudgeon show: goes on for 53 minutes.
This shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. :)
53 minutes and no commercials, amazing.
No views - no commercials.
@@carrollshelby8690 this is a great channel. they deserve to get paid for what they're doing. having a videos get demonetized is not a good thing .
Thanks Obama
@@carrollshelby8690 no disrespect to The Smoking Tire Podcast but carmudgeon gets more views and the first 15 minutes isn’t ads
1989 Ford Taurus SHO could be considered as the 1st American Super Saloon (Sedan). It was powered by a 3.0L V6 generating 220bhp and 200lb-ft of torque. Top speed was 143mph.
Subarno Sinha Beat me to it!
LOL, NO!!!!! A front wheel drive car IS NOT a sport sedan. Besides there was earlier stuff anyway. My pick for first American sport sedan would be the Pontiac Tempest. The Tempest was small for it's time 4 door sedan with an independent rear suspension, a rear mounted transaxle, 50/50 weight distribution, etc. Specifically if choosing a specific version the 1963 Super Duty, but only 12 of those were made. More production would be a 63 with the 4 speed and 326-V8, they scooted.
LOL, NO!!!! A two door is not a true sedan. So by both our logics, Camisa is right. The Cadillac CTS-V might actually be the first true RWD, 4 door sports sedan.
@@jwhite7621 Two door? Both cars mentioned here were entirely or available as 4 door sedans.
snek Fair enough, there are plenty of other reasons it’s not “sport”. Simply being RWD and having a big motor doesn’t mean it’s a sport sedan. But hey, you have an opinion and I appreciate you sharing it.
Datsun 510 and the Alfa Romeo Alfetta sedan (1972) were two greats you missed. The Alfa was very exotic for an everyman's car with a transaxle, dedion rear end and inboard rear disc brakes. They are one on the best driving Alfas that nobody knows about.
Had a rusty Alfetta as a student, then scored an Alfetta GTV6 in my first year undergrad in Edinburgh (swapped for a race bike). I've owned many Alfa's since, but love the 166...... Busso....
My 1st new car, a 1971 Alfa Berlina.
The 510 was very lacking in power for a sports sedan but god was it fun to drive... i was hoping they would bring in the 510 to the discussion because of how fun to drive i think they focused way to much on power and not on joy of driving
@@centralems40736 Yep, the 510 didn't have tons of power, but then neither did the 2002, which was mentioned numerous times. The Datsun and the BMW were major rivals in racing, and were pretty evenly matched.
@@OpiceSF evenly matched in Motorsports? Not really. close in construction ? Kind of ... Nissan literally copied the 2002 buy making the generic 510. Literally, the suspension is exactly the same. Nissan wanted a slice of the tin top market...... Yes the 510 was successful in trans am and out performed the 2002, but was because 1. Pete Brock (enough said) 2. Factory budget. 3. SCCA severely handicapped the 2002 by banning all FIA approved performance parts the were being used in Europe( a weak theory of mine is Alfa lobbied) 4. No bmw factory support , due to it's already campaign in Europe and BMW was focusing on the CSL for USA 4. All the racers who raced a 2002 were literally dealership owners, not pros. In Europe the 2002 was Wrc rally champion, world touring car champion a few times, fighting the alfas, European touring car champion a few times, again fighting the alfas, won the first two 24h nurburings races and won a class win at the 1976 LeMans, beating the it's bigger brother, the CSL and Ford capris......
Derek knows more about Jaguar than Jaguar.
a q50 infiniti is better and faster also.
Forgot the XF though.
Argh I was listening to this in Podcast form yelling at the stereo waiting for you guys to figure out there's a country South of Asia you may have heard of that used to make some pretty amazing cars... If there was any episode where you guys could consider Australian content, this was it.
Aussie Ford Falcon 'GT'/'GT-HO', and GM-H Torana 'SL/R 5000', and 'L34'/'A9X'. High powered, mid and compact sized V8 sedans. A hundred times more worthy of being on this list than a 300 SEL 6.3L Benz!
Love the podcast, but you broke my heart on this one.
Man, I always get fuzzy feelings when I hear Jason talk about BMW’s “golden era.” His opinions on this topic are so accurate. You can get in these cars that are beat up from that era (E46, E39,E38) and if the engine is running ok and the suspension isn’t totally shot, it’s a revelatory driving experience. From the engine feel to the steering to the way the car feels around you, it’s like you’re meeting an old best friend that you haven’t seen for years. Great discussion, guys! I was thinking to suggest for a future Carmudgeon episode where you guys compare the current 3,5,7 series to the golden era cars and show what made the old cars so special. Especially the G30 vs. the E39. People say to get over those old cars because technology has progressed, but there’s that special feeling that’s gone. There really aren’t that many videos where there’s a direct comparison between the generations of cars.
28:50 1961 Pontiac Tempest, smaller for the American market, a true 4 door sedan, independent rear suspension, a rear mounted transaxle, 50/50 weight distribution, 215 CI aluminum block and head V8. Or in 62 a true good 4 speed and a larger V8.
For Japanese how can you not think of the Datsun 510(Nissan Bluebird), if the BMW 2002 counts then so does the 510. Specifically the 1.8L SSS version.
In the late 80s there was the Taurus SHO, which I would qualify as a sport sedan.
@@Kalepsis Uhm, no, a FWD isn't a sport sedan.
I'd agree with the Tempest as magazines and drivers praised it for its handling and power back in the day.
I forgot about this, have to give my cousin Vinny a watch again.
Don't know if you would say it's a sports sedan or a muscle sedan.
But the 1967 Ford Falcon XR GT.
Was homologated from the Australian racing program with the first gen mustang GT running gear in a daily family sedan.
Even ford America though it was a rediculous idea to use that running gear and race endurance road racing series in a family car.
When I saw the title I thought Alfa Giulietta then Giulia Super....you guys restore my faith in car guy humanity!!
Nice to see a channel that shows proper respect to jaaaaaag. I feel like they’re often under appreciated in the Us.
Once people are done hating Jaguars, they don't have enough time left to appreciate them.
Jag is trash, sat in the top of the line XJ which was well over 100k and it was absolutely terrible, panels gaps like it's a Chrysler, just awful.
@@dudndadn12212 even Aston Martin with 300k got to have the imperfection-character, those who buy ones doesn't care about the nitty-bitty or it's sticker price along they got the expected ride. Same happens with Jaguar, except they produce more cars-less exclusive
I went to buy another one but I must have forgotten my wallet... do you own any fine art work by chance?
The first GT-R was actually a 4 door sedan, then they swapped it in the coupe.
Ironically Jason did mention that himself while doing a documentary about GTRs back when he was in Motor Trend
@@amirnaim3675 True, but well, he still is a human being, so, he is meant to make mistakes. We'll forgive him this time \\(^_^)//
The first sports sedan I ever drove was an E39 M5. It changed my life, I’ve bought German cars ever since
Check out the Aussie 351 XY GT-HO Ford Falcon. Fastest 4 door in the world for a period.
53 minutes? What a great way to end my day!
I'm pretty sure Nissan put the S20 in the PGC-10 (sedan) Hakosuka, I believe it launched in early 1969. I think it was only a couple of years later that it was fitted to the KPGC-10 (coupé).
I second this - GT-R was a sedan first :)
They built 832 Hakosuka sedans with the S20 engines in '69 much rarer than the 1,197 coupes built that year.
It was actually the sedans that collected the majority of the Hakosuka's legendary 50 race victories.
Edit: For that matter, the S54 Prince Skyline GT that went before it could stake its claim to being first. Inline six with triple webers, limited slip differential and front disc brakes in 1963. That car was competitive against the Porsche 904.
You right but Alfa Romeo already made sport sedans in the 50s.
@@ir0nl0rd I'll third that. I'd rather have the four door sedan version of the GT-R.
i learn so much about random ass cars from these conversations, as a truck guy i know nothing about sedans but some of these cars looked cool
As a recent Alfa Giulia Ti Sport Q4 owner I love the way you guys started with Alfa as the Sports Sedan inventor then circled back to the Giulia. Given weight is our enemy I am good with the "lack of luxury." Heated leather seats, a sunroof for open air motoring, and a decent stereo is all I need for luxury. The driving experience with the Giulia is the most engaging I've ever experienced. There is a connection, or intimacy with the car that is very satisfying -- this is what the sport sedan is all about.
So Alfa Romeo was the first one to come up with it and currently the best one for sale is again the Alfa. The circle is round if you ask me.
The ALFA Giulia Super is certainly is one of the earliest 'modern era' sport-sedans.
Honda Accord Euro R 2000-03. Great fun sport sedan. 5sp close ratio box LSD stiffer suspension Recaro seats.
So to update you guys, the Hakosuka GT-R was available in four door guise, which if you don't count it's Prince predecessor as a sports sedan would count as first except! The Datsun 510 would probably also count with its SCCA provenance aaaaand it's JDM Bluebird sibling being sold in SSS form.
Also I vote Taurus SHO as the first American Sports Sedan.
PowerTryp all good points. We looked up the GT-R after and were like “crap.” Also you’re absolutely right about the 510 and SHO as well.
Normal people: Who in the world listen to this useless conversation for 53 minutes?
Me: Gearheads... It's one of the endangered species
I honestly don't know shit about cars (pedal to the right=go, middle=stop, left=something in between), but the Alfa @5:39 and the BMW @7:57 made me smile. Those are gorgeous cars. Jay & DT-S, another great episode!
I enjoy spending part of my day listening to you and Derek talk cars. It is relaxing and informative. Great format.
Australians are (were) all about sports sedans, I’m surprised hsv and fpv weren’t mentioned.
Australia was almost mentioned when they were talking about the Chevy SS.
Yep the GTHO Phase 3 was a pretty good sports sedan
W212 E63 with the M156 6.2L - That’s the modern interpretation of the E500 Hammer - that’s the last most exciting sports sedan.
Lotus with colaboration with GM Europe (Vauxhal/Opel) in 1990 built Vauxhal/Lotus Carlton, Opel Omega with twin turbo v6 377hp 419lbft with 6speed manual capable of hitting 176mph.
@@ristekostadinov2820 it was a straight 6 not a v6
@@lukadole you are right my bad
How can they not mention the hammer.
I haven't seen the video yet but the type 105 Guilia came out in 62...so there ya go.
This should have been called the history of the sports sedan since it’s a 53 min video
1971 Ford falcon GTHO 3. 300HP stick shift and could turn and stop. Over 140mph top speed, low 14s in the quarter.
I bought my 16 Chevy SS (manual) based on the E39 vs SS Head2Head that Jason did.
Its 02:20 am and im about to finally go to sleep, and then a new ISSIMI video pops up.
Sorry, but not sorry. Fear not, we'll still be here tomorrow morning! Sleep tight!
@@JasonCammisa *silently thanks youtube app for having the download feature*
MB 500E & M5 E39 my favourites
Australia had the Ford falcon gt, a four door sedan with gt specs and 4 doors in 1967.
You've missed a whole hemisphere in your sport sedan assessments. I'm not going to say that they were sophisticated but the Australians had genuinely fast 4 door sedans that were able to corner (maybe not brake) in the XR an XT GT sedans in the late 60's (they got a bit fat in the XW an XY series). I've driven all the Ford GTs and I love the 80s and 90s BMW products, plus many of the Holden Brock examples that were genuine world class handling fast sedans.
FORD FALCONNNNN AUSSIE EDITION
Some great early ones: Ford (Lotus) Cortina, Renault R8 Gordini, Triumph Dolomite Sprint, Ford Escort Mk1 (RS2000)
Some always forgotten later ones: Peugeot 405 Mi 16, Lancia 8.32, Ford Sierra RS Cosworth
American ones: Didn't they race Ford Falcons in the BTCC and Australia?
Modern ones: AMG GT 4 door, Panamera and RS7.
Lotus Cortina?
31:20 Honda Civic Ferio VTI?
Lotus Cortina was a Ford Cortina modified by Lotus, just like Opel Carlton.
Hudson Hornet. 308 I6, unibody and dominated stock car racing in the early 1950's. It was available as a two door and convertible as well as a sedan
My father had a 6.3 and I drove it through high school and many times over the years he owned it. He refused to let me drive it until I went to Bondurant at Sears Point before I got my license (1975). They asked me what cars I'd be driving and when I said one of them would be a 6.3, they immediately taught me about the dreaded swing axle. No, they weren't sporty, but you could hustle one on a backroad if you knew how far you could push it and how to respect the swing axle. My dad drove it until 1990, when he was t-boned by a red light runner on Hwy 68. I still miss it.
Alpina have a long history of making decent sports sedans
The Mitsu Lancer Evo (1992) is the first modern Japanese sports sedan that comes to mind for me.
Mercedes-Benz 6.3. A past employer had a '72 US-model gathering dust in the back of the shop. Having grown up with 60's and 70's muscle cars meant I hadn't a clue about this Teutonic beast until a coworker filled me in. One look at the massive V8--the intake manifold is modern art--meant I had to drive it. After pleading with the boss to let me fix it he agreed. I installed a trans and rear brakes, did a tune (yes, including valve adjustment, setting the dual points, etc.), and it was back on the streets of San Francisco.
Returning from a parts run to Oakland across the old Bay Bridge, I turned on to the Embarcadero Freeway and hammered it. Damn!!! Yes, 3900lbs but also 434 lb/ft of torque. It went from 40 to over a hundred in a few blinks.That car did everything well.
Jason picked the wrong forbidden fruit recent vintage Alfa Romeo. The 159 is gorgeous, but not great to drive really. What he should pick is the brutal 156 GTA, or the ONE HE DROVE AND LIKED which was the 155 2.5 V6. Totally biased, but I love that car and it handles like no FWD car should.
Thanks to Jason’s MT piece and a few others picked up a 17ss manual. Loved it, but it was just too big. From there a F80 M3 comp package, fast a f, but lacked any soul. Now back in a E39 M5 and could not be happier.
I know I've said this on other editions of curmudgeon, but I love that you guys are making these videos. Thanks for the great content!
I love listening to you guys bounce stats and information off each other and I thought I was nerdy about car stats 👍
Pronuncia perfetta!!! Grazie!!!
Keep up the good work guys, another video on point. I'm a little disappointed that there was no mention of the Toyota JZX cars or the B7 RS4.
Three years late but there’s also the 90s Honda Accord Euro R as well as the Integra 4 door Type R.
USA Taurus SHO- 300 hp Yamaha engine detuned to 225 hp. Fast enough to scare you at that time. They did work on the chassis and brakes a little, but mostly it was the engine. A sleeper. The later versions had over 50 % more power before Ford pulled the plug- but the original is the best..
Audi S4. BMW gets all the credit but Audi with the S4 or even S8 (as used in the film Ronin) certainly produced great sport sedans decades ago. Fast and capable.
Peugot 505 STI. - tight, sporty sedan. Test drove one in 1986.
The BMW 1600 was special. my third car ever.
You didn't mention Lancia. Thinking any sedan they made back in the day was a sports sedan. Sadly not now.
The sho came late
The S4 didn't handle
It's Alfa for me.. because they're the ones that captured my heart.
The Taurus SHO, Omni GLH, Neon SRT4, CTS-V, and a few other were some early American ones
The only podcast I always watch all the way through, Clicked immediately when I saw this
Woot! Thanks - enjoy this one. There are a ton of pix, too!
Wasnt the Galaxy raced in the touring car class in Europe in the 60's? That had a 4 door variant.
I'm pretty sure Ford had other sporty sedan variants in the UK and Australia, like the Capris, Escort and Falcon.
Surprised you didn't mention the post war Bristol. The Prince Skyline GT. The Aussie Ford XR Falcon GT. The Mazda RX2, which came as a 4 door in Oz.
Audi RS lineup, Kia Stinger GT,...
I had a e28 535is manual euro converted.. miss it so much
Guys, Australia lead the way when it came to high performance sedans.
TheRedmanbull that went ok in a straight line...not around corners😉
Aussies have had V8 powered RWD sedans with go fast bits since the early 80's
mid 70's??? 4door monaro (kingswood), falcon GT...
No mention of the panamera??)
Love the show :) I can't wait for more car reviews you hit the nail on the head every time
There were many Japanese sports sedan which predated the Altezza... Datsun Bluebird (510, 910 in SSS form), Toyota Chaser/Cresta (RX60 and onward)/ Corolla-Sprinter (AE80 and onward with the 4A-GE engine), Mazda Luce (from 1st Gen in 1960s and onward)/MS8/Millennia/Capella ZI-R, Nissan Sunny GTS & VR-Z/ Primera TE-V / Nissan Skyline (up to 34 series), Mitsubishi Lancer EX 2000 Turbo/ Lancer Evolution/ Galant 2000 GSR / Galant VR-4 / Emeraude, Isuzu Gemini ZZ, and we definitely can't forget the ones everyone loves to hate, the Honda Civic SiR / Accord SiR . And this is my no means an exhaustive list
I remember asking Jonny on FB about how would compare the SS to the E39 M5 because I’ve read that comparison in Automobiles Magazine and I was thinking MT should do a video about it. Little I knew that it was a certain J.Cammisa that wrote that article and was now working for MT, joined the discussion and said « yeah we should do that! ».
I’m not in any way saying that I played any role in the creation of this epic MT video but it’s still one of my favorite.
Ford Sierra Cosworth sedan is another one to add to the list of good sport sedans.
If my IS350 F-sport had a manual, it would be just about perfect. It's a joy to drive at any speed, and really shines when being pushed through the corners. It's a Toyota at heart so I'm not worried about it falling apart on me or leaving me stranded. It felt better than the 340i I test drove while cross-shopping; and the 340i was a 6mt and obviously had more power to boot.
The Alfa Romeo Giulietta was the inventor and pioneer of the first sports sedan launched back in 1955! 17 years before BMW!! when it launched the 5 Series E12 in 1972.
I had an e39 M5 that ended up getting totaled. I miss that car like you might miss an amputated testicle. And now I can't find another one in good shape with relatively few miles for less than $55k.
I followed up the loss of my M5 by buying a 2013 Ford Taurus SHO, which was a very good car, but holy shit the depreciation was atrocious.
'95 Volvo T5-R
I am with you, fantastic sport sedan that won BTCC in 1995 IIRC. Rydell could make that thing fly.
ChaosphereIX yup! Def not the best “sport sedan” but should at least be mentioned!
But not a true american in 95 even though it was owned by ford it was still a sweed car
-Who invented the sport sedan?
-The people that had responsibilities, and also wanted to go fast lol
Jason/Derek: I own an Alfa Romeo 159 (as you may guess!) - it's not dynamically 'terrible', just lacklustre. It's very heavy and even the raciest engine it had (A 260hp V6) isn't enough to rush it. Handles fine but it's pretty uninspiring and a bit boaty. It does look stunning though and it's very plush inside; more a luxury 4-door than a sporting one.
If you want modern Alfa sedans that drive well then you're looking at the 156 GTA (which is wonderful apart from the stock spring/damper combo is off) and the 155 Q4 which is basically a re-bodied Delta Integrale HF. My vote goes for the 156 because it has a 3.2 Busso V6 and the most beautiful leather seats in any modern production car.
These shows keep getting longer and I couldn't be happier!
PLEASE dont stop making these! Even though they have criminally low viewcounts :(
Lotus cortina was the first sport sedan and the lancia thema 8.32 is undoubtedly the best sport sedan
The sho Taurus was missed. even the contour svt which was amazing for a sports sedan and if we get into something with out a size limit on four doors, The Evo and sti are exactly the definition of sports sedan you're talking about.
I agree with the below statement. Ford Taurus SHO! The Yamaha V6 was great and it could handle.
I think Alfa started it with the 1900 berlina (1950), later joined by 1900 TI and TI Super.
For Japanese sport sedans, Prince Skyline GT (S54 series, 1964). It had G7 straight 6 from the larger Gloria model. GTA had single carb, while GTB was equipped with triple Weber 40 DCOEs.
I'd like to mention some great sport (sporty) sedans you didn't talk about (that I can think of):
Lancia Aurelia berlinas (1950-)
Lancia Fulvia berlinas
Lancia Beta Trevi Volumetrico
Lancia Thema 8.32 & i.e. Turbo
Fiat 124 Special (with Lampredi DOHC)
Fiat Croma Turbo
All transaxle Alfa sedans (1972 - 1992)
Alfa 164
Alfa 156
Jaguar X300/X308 XJRs
W124 500E/E500
W202-based AMG cars (C36, C43 and C55 - pretty much the beginning of AMG history for the US)
Isuzu Bellett sedans
Isuzu Geminis
I don't know much about American cars.
You missed the Alfa 155. As a 155 V6 owner I am offended! Lol. Nice list though.
@@ChaosphereIX Oh yes the 155. It slipped my mind. My late mother owned a few 155s, starting with 2.0 TS 8V, followed by two facelift 155 V6es.
Your videos are of the very few that I click 'like' immediately after tapping play. Because I know it's going to be good!
Wait'll you watch this one. You'll click twice ;)
@@JasonCammisa can't say enough how much I appreciate the content the team has been creating, and it's 'free!'
2017 Chevy SS. Manual!
My car :-)
Terrence Anderson jealous. They never sold them in Canada. Debated on buying one in the states and driving it back up...
1963 Maserati Quattroporte in my mind was the first sport sedan... Derek and Jason - what do you think?
The thumbnail was from the Chevy ss ignition 😁
Swami N ya noticed that
Swami N one of the last of the great Sports sedans
'84 Ford LTD LX was at least RWD and handled decently for the era. Plus, squeeze bulb lumbar support FTW.
The first American sport sedan is probably the Pontiac 6000STE, launched in 1983. Activity five Brighton sequential, multi port, fuel injection, four-wheel disc brakes, factory Bilstein struts and shocks with automatic rear leveling. A five speed manual Getrag gearbox was available.
From Japan, Datsun 410 Bluebird with 1.6l engine and 980kg weight in 60s and in 70s Mazda RX-2 with rotary engine and limited RS sport version in South Africa. Nissan also did Skyline in 90s in SA with L28 motor and better suspension. Was used as basis for saloon racing. Was fun to drive as narrow tires and good torque... Ford Cortina and Sierra in SA was also tuned to enable competition entry, kind of homologation if you like...
The 1994 Impala SS american, then the 1998 GS400 is what started the current hp sedan war when it killed the benz and bmw. Right after that we got the M5 and E55. My favorite drivers sedan is my Jaguar XFR. No lag, torque vectoring diff, smooth ride, 15in brakes and gorgeous exhaust note and beautiful inside and out
The '94 Impala SS is a pretty good muscle car. But a true sports sedan? No...
3rd gen Acura TL with the 6 speed manual (or automatic type S) is my favorite of all sports sedans. Good looks, great handling, and plenty quick.
But fwd, and front heavy, understeer. I would say e90 330i/328i 6 speed msport from that era is superior sport sedan.
Yeah FWD is not ideal, but the manual trans TLs got an upgraded limited slip differential as well as upgraded suspension over the autos, which helps deal with the torque steer/understeer. Also I was thinking more about midsize sedans, 3 series are tiny lol
I love my hsv gen f2 clubsport that is the upgrade of chevy ss.
1963 - Ford / Lotus Cortina
Jason have you driven the Pontiac G8? It’s basically the SS just a generation older, but besides the other trims did they drive the same?
The SS would be a G8 GTP with magnetic ride and way better brakes.... and bluetooth. Lol
I’m having trouble with my reverse lock out. I replaced the bushing you replaced here. I too want the snabb short throw.
Hi Jason, I am not ‘ Francais!!’ But you should do an episode on Citroen, maybe the SM or the DS yet I think the 2cv and the Ami 6 and 8 ( none existent in the US ) as well as the ZX, XM and my favorite the CX deserves some time.
I know you can’t review every car but Citroen, as far as I am concerned is the only French ( mentioned with a French accent !) car manufacturer that deserves some time. Innovative and daring!!.
Keep up the good work
12-14 Chrysler 300 srt8 is my favorite American sports sedan such a sleeper and decent luxury. Wish they would bring it back to the states!
Agreed
Lincoln LS was an American (partly) sport sedan 3.9 DOHC V8. 5spd auto or manual for certain years. praised for it's handling at the time. Ford just didn't update it to keep it competitive.
I know most muscle cars are 2 door (even though the first muscle car, the 1949 Oldsmobile Rocket 88 was a sedan) but you should consider older muscles as important for the history of sport sedans.
2 door is a defining feature of the "muscle car" genre.
@@snek9353 As I stated, the first muscle was the Oldsmobile Rocket 88, which was a 4 door
@@AE86FTS Well first who says the Rocket 88 is a muscle car, and second many of not most were 2 door.
Muscle cars don't corner, hence they are not sports sedans.
@@PhilipBeresford while that's true, I feel that they should be mentioned at least as stepping stones to sport sedans.
Unless I'm mistaken at no point did you mention the Project 8. Have either of you driven it?
Chevy SS Holden represent! Rest in piece.
4 years late, but my contribution:
the earliest American Sports Sedan was the 2nd Gen 1965+ Chevy Corvair as evidenced its significant suspension tweaks which were put to good use on track by the Yenko Stinger and the Fitch Sprint cars in SCCA.
While it may be a car that draws strong negative opinions, it was in the mix and like many GM products "it could have been great with one more generation".
Galant VR4?
30:40 1989 Ford Taurus SHO
First American sports sedan: I'd argue for the 1965 Corvair Sport Sedan (yes, they actually called it a sports sedan). Available with an air-cooled flat six with four carbs and 140 HP, four speed manual and an all independent suspension. And a four-door hardtop. People remember the coupes (as they were great looking) but there was a four door. Car and Driver raved about the handling and roadability of the second gen Corvair.
As far as coining it a sports sedan that may be true! However I rather think that the 1952 Hudson Hornet which was also a true sedan was an actual sports sedan.
I'd argue a better example than the Corvair is the 1961 Pontiac Tempest. Smaller for the American market, a true 4 door sedan, independent rear suspension, a rear mounted transaxle, 50/50 weight distribution, 215 CI aluminum block and head V8. Or in 62 a true good 4 speed and a larger V8.
We can go older though for decent candidates, the Studebaker Lark as early as '59, a small 4 door sedan with up to a 289ci overhead valve 4bbl V8.
The Merc suspension action descriptions are worth the time...
That was an interesting episode. I do have a few doubts.
1. When you say sports sedans, does it mean that it should have four doors? Because if so, the Hakosuka Skyline GTR did come with four doors.
2. You were lost when you were thinking of cool modern day sports sedans. How about the latest Jag XJ and the XE lineup? What are your thoughts?
Was the Dodge Neon srt4 the first American sport sedan?