Conventional wisdom: sedans aren't investments. Conventional wisdom = wrong! - Carmudgeon Show Ep 49
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- Опубліковано 24 сер 2024
- Historically, sedans were viewed as non-collectibles. But history was wrong - these days, sedans are doing just fine.
In this episode, Jason Cammisa and Derek Tam-Scott ("Hyphen") discuss the collectible and awesome sedan - everything from the Mercedes 6.9 and 6.3 to the W124 500E, and the AMG Hammer and Hammer Wagon 500E 6.0. To say nothing of the W201 190E 2.3-16 with its triumphant debut at the grand opening of the Nürburgring GP circuit in a one-marque race won by none other than Ayrton Senna.
And then there's the non-Mercedes: BMW E28 M5, the E30 325i, E36 M3, E31 850i.
And the discussion of Maserati Quattroporte versus GranCoupe. And Honda Prelude, Acura Integra, Camry Coupe, Lexus SC, and Buick Reatta.
The Coupe story ends with a discussion of Jason's nephew's Infiniti G35 Coupe, which started its journey at a 24 Hours of Lemons race in San Francisco and Teen Driving School at Thunderhill Raceway and drove cross-country - and Tail of the Dragon. And then met a deer in South Carolina.
Wait we don’t have to wait a year for another episode???? This is new. I like this.
I think they should be once/ month. At this rate they could run out of topics very soon.
@@dragospahontu how do you come to that conclusion?
@@sjoroverpirat there is only so much you can talk about. Sticking to a schedule isn't a good idea. They should make podcasts because they want to, not because they have to.
@@dragospahontu lol. They won't run out of things to talk about. They won't stick to a schedule for long.
@@sjoroverpirat I bet they won't.
Carmudgeon every Monday??? It wasn’t a fever dream???? I’m in heaven
This feels waaay too early for a new episode. Didn't even believe this was a Carmudgeon show, even with the title being on the thumbnail
10:08 for those curious, Senna was standing in for Emerson Fittipaldi
Yeah Hunt didn't seem to make sense since he was a F1 commentator by that point iirc
Interesting! Thanks!
I know Jason and Hyphen said there would be regular episodes, but I'm still somehow in disbelief to see this new episode appear!
I love the new frequency of episodes.
You read my mind with your comment
What a joy to have another episode before a my unborn child has grandkids.
You made it to their Instagram story!
Petty correction: E30 M3s were not only coupes as 786 convertibles were produced for the euro market. A very weird mixture of homologation racer and flexible boat.
I have seen one of those kidney flair convertibles online but I thought that was an appearance package that didn't get the twin cam motor
W210 E55 here. Paid $5000 six years ago & into it for another $10k?! Bought at 155k now has 205k miles. It’s my forever car.
Great to haul the dogs, groceries & has a little muscle. Rust is main enemy. Four doors makes it fun to bring your friends along!
You’re an awesome uncle, Jason! Sad that the accident happened, but he has so many great memories with the car and you!
I really like Derek's filosofy.
"I like to buy cars with the most value. More experience for the least money." That's a financially sound way to be a car guy.
Me personally, I rent cars I like on Turo, buy cars at the bottom of the depreciation curve, and modify cars (starting with a good platform) to my liking over buying a "newer" "more focused" car.
All this is allowing me to have more for less money.
When I was 18-19 a friends dad was sending him on a track day where every session had older/ex racing drivers as passengers/instructors and asked if a couple of his friends wanted to come along. Was a great day driving around a track getting pointers on where to place the car, too fast/slow into the corners, braking way too early/late/not hard enough etc
Do me and everyone else a favor.. Put EP. 49 somewhere in the thumbnail.. Makes finding the right EP easier at a glance.. Long titles can get chopped off when viewed on Mobile..
On with the show!
I love the dynamic between the two of you. Geeky and informative but yet “whatever the f!$&”
24:00
About the whole generational thing about cars, sure it's heartening to see new people interested in it, geographical issues aside, I'm one of those too, I'm 20 right now.
Being from Europe though, gas prices are insane, collector cars I like that make me carmudgeonly beyond my own years dishearten me to ever being able to own one.
964s are 60-80k. You must be kidding! As was that insane auction of that widebody C4 that went to like 300k+
As it does about driving when all you hear is electric this and dinosaurs that.
There's a few people my age that prefer video games, still, to ever messing with cars and what cars have that those don't to me is
lol
a "visceral" experience, something neurologically intense that that simply can't offer to me. It's rough being into it when you're zigging and everything else is zagging though.
I suspect the same issues that plague pre-war cars will ring true soon because if they're so expensive who will care to own them and drive them and talk about them, eventually that always happens, sure...but this market is just unprecedented. As is everything else in the 2020s.
I like these episodes but they're definitely downers for me. Interesting discussion though. Hope you can keep these semi-regulars up!
Can you guys discuss the W210 E55 AMG sometime? I've always been interested in those and they seem to be fairly reliable and relatively cheap compared to other AMG models. Great episode also !
Great cars. I have one as my daily, and genuinely one of my favorites that I’ve owned.
This upload schedule makes my life so much more pleasant
Really looking forward to the how to be a good automotive enthusiast episode, I don’t have the ability to do any track day or school type things, but I’d really like to hear other activities that I can do with my car
What you mention about the 8 series and the Testarossa is the same thing many people didn't understand about the Z8. The E39 M5 was a superior car dynamically but the Z8 is unmatched as a boulevard cruiser, and it's just an all-around feelgood car as long as you're not pushing it.
It always looked so goofy to me the z8 I understand where the value comes from but I would just rather have the far prettier Astons for the money
W211 E55 AMG. Faster than the Lambos, and Ferraris upon introduction.
And the 210 E55 was faster than the Corvette of the same year.
The audio is really solid. I had no idea you kept this show going. Cammisa, you need to do more stuff- such a gift.
Whew, now I don’t feel like as much of a fool for paying a premium for a high mileage Jaguar XJR. It is a manual, though, which helps.
Xj40 or x300 xjr? I would love a manual x300 r stickshift. Though I do have an xjr 100
@@brandonherrera2891 X300; it was the one that was on Cars and Bids a couple of years ago. Definitely feels more raw than a X308 XJR, which by comparison is quite numb and sedate, even if it’s faster on paper.
@@ofmanynicknames well shit. Better sell x308 xjr 100 for an 95-97 xjr.
@@brandonherrera2891 I dunno, you do have a bit of a rarity with that XJR100, and those 95-97 XJRs are very hard to find nowadays. Which wheels does yours have?
@@ofmanynicknames factory wheels, bbs montreal. But refinished in a custom way
You guys....this story about Senna and the Nurburgring HAS to be the subject of one of your ICON videos or something. Wow.
Thank you for starting my week off on a positive note!
Love the John Davies reference!
I'm 48. Had S6 RS3 and many other modern rides as daily drivers. A few years ago got more and more interested in E34 M5 and 500E. Found a 1 owner 500E. 106K mi. for $38k. flawless interior. so far spent $7k to update hoses valve covers exhaust Euro headlights and various other future proofing. Been driving it daily. Choose it 70% of the time over the '11 E90 M3 which I also daily. Friends say 'it's probably slow'. Lol!
@45:30 In addition to posters we could also consider which car we have as our desktop wallpaper or which car our go to car in a video game.
What a great Uncle. Congrats Jason and Anthony.
I am glad your Nephew is OK, and I am also glad the car is getting repaired.
I am very impressed, as another single uncle, at how you were able to say that he was out at 2:45 in the morning "buying an intake manifold", without a hint of sarcasm. Got to sell it to his mother, or the kid will be riding a bicycle for the rest of his life.
Just so happens, I have a close relative that had a very similar car. I hesitate to link this video for 2 reasons. 1) The music is THE WORST, but they stop it while the dyno runs are actually happening. 2) I started my relative down this habit hole, and he ended up with a 1000hp G35. It was about the fastest thing on the street, in the Chicago area, in its time.
This is a cautionary tale, so Anthony, if you are reading this, find a friend that spent $40,000 on his motor, and drive his car. Keep yours closer to stock, and you'll still have it in 20 years, like Jason still has his Scirocco.
ua-cam.com/video/kblsDBq7vUg/v-deo.html
i thought the whole waiting for the bi-annual update was on-brand relating to the thought and quality of content we fans, demanded!? this is a refreshing change! keep up the great work!!
Holy shit you guys were serious.
Thnx Jason and Derek for doing this channel and your talks! ❤️ Big hugs from Madrid!
I only had 3 car posters as a kid. 911 R 356 B porsche 944 ... my dream cars ...
PLEASE do an episode on being a "good enthusiast"
I'm restoring a Miata and plan on using it to become a better driver and I wanna listen to y'all talk about your stories and complaints and tips about the learning process.
Senna replaced Emerson Fittipaldi, who could not attend because of the Indy 500
I love that pirelli ad I had it on my trapper keeper in school
Jason. I think you want to come off course. But helping with the car and the driving school shows you do care
Biggest reason Sedans are going up is because the were cheap, and some still are. Millennials are poor. Millennials and gen z are saying “you’re telling me there are cheap fun cars?”
Welcome back! Keep it coming. Great discussion!
I am finally not alone in being the only one I know who like the Ferrari 275 gtb/4. I am in love with Hyphen @32:52
Someone linked the original TV footage of the 190E race here in the comment section. The commentator mentioned why Lauda was starting from way back: he couldn't practice (and drive the qualify) because of a TV appearance he had to attend. Not to take anything away from Senna's victory, but i think Niki Laudas 2nd place was as impressive to me.
RE: luxury coupes of the '90s the Lexus SC400 was mid-high $50s in the mid-'90s, so $85k for an E Coupe at the same time is insane
The underappreciation of Mercedes sedans from the classic era (~1995 and earlier) is one of the great tragedies of the automobile world. Basically the greatest functional mechanical transportation devices ever made, and they're grossly underappreciated. Give me a Euro spec gas powered W123 sedan with metallic paint.
As slow as it was in accelleration, i would take a non turbo 300D wagon. (My first car. when i got it it was 14 year old, iirc 360 k km on the clock and had been abused for years for transporting bricks and stuff for the house building of my parents)
Thank you guys
The double windscreen is serious folks! That SM7 has that big foam cushion on it so you dont have to use that pop screen. :)
Jason I wish you were my uncle! I agree the G35 is heavy for no good reason, but I’d wager that it’s still in the top 5 best values in used cars. Good power, beautiful, pretty practical for a coupe, good steering, and you can get a great example for $8K. It’s not the best, but it’s cheap and fast enough to run down people in actually valuable stuff
The QP2 is amazing and I'd love to see one up close. Big four-door Citroen SM. The story is that DeTomaso was so personally offended by the QP2 that he bought Maserati when Citroen sold it, and brought us the QP3 and all the BiTurbos of the 80s.
Great episode
For any e30 guys:
Put front _and_ rear strut braces in your car, no matter whether it's stock or modified. It will feel significantly more precise and confidence-inspiring.
also lowering springs. It will handle and have less body roll than stock springs
I do miss how there were coup versions of normal midsize cars. Only the Altima coup had significant differences mechanically to its 4 door base, but it was nice having a sleek body style option for your affordable car. And of course it was often only the coup options that offered a manual.
Love your show and I'm a very happy boy, after thinking carmudgeon show was over and watching all old episodes...BMW E30 M3 came as coupe and as convertible (786 cars)
I've never owned a sedan and only owned cars with two doors. 2-door Accords always looked better and coupes offer better power to weight in some models. If I had a family, I would reluctantly get a 4-door, but I wouldn't get rid of my coupe. My friends get big SUVs and 4-door cars because they might one day carry four passengers, but usually don't.
Great episode and I also want to drive a 296GTB. Once exotic rentals in Vegas has one I will be trying it out.
1960s utility was a sedan showing you didn't need practicality was a coupe. 2000s utility is an SUV showing you didn't need practicality is a sedan.
lol, I'm not the only one who doesn't want to put pinholes in my posters.
You may not know it, but the e30 m3 convertible exists. Very limited. I had the chance to see one here in Paris. What a magnificent car !
I have a w116 as a late 30s guy. I absolutely love it. Some sedans are awesome!
When he’s back on the road and ready to mod further, look up Z1 motorsports in Carrollton, GA. I’m not a Z, G, or Q guy, but the work they do on those platforms is second to none.
In '84 when Ayrton Senna just burst into the scene in F1, apart from Niki Lauda (who won '84 WDC by 0.5pt) there were the likes of Nelson Piquet (defending 2x WDC), Alain Prost, Nigel Mansell, Elio de Angelis, Thierry Boutsen, Stefan Bellof, Stefan Johansson, Martin Brundle (the most recognisable F1 commentator right now), Riccardo Patrese, Gerhard Berger (runs the DTM now), Andrea de Cesaris, Rene Arnoux, Jacques Laffite, Keke Rosberg and Michele Alboreto. Piquet, Prost, Senna and Mansell were regarded as the "Big-4" of the '80s in F1.
I had a shit box e21 and can relate to hyphens love for them especially when you find out about the rare alpina ones
i could drive my 69 911 anywhere...easily keeps up with modern traffic and is reliable. True of most 911s from that era with current maintenance.
Agree!
You should try an E31 840i manual (V8). Completely different dynamics compared to the 850i. Not sure if you got that model in the US, tho.
In my case I really only like small cars except there is something about the Maserati Gran Turismo (especially the MC) that I love. I also make a similar exception for the later model Aston Martin DB9. Other than that I really can't think of any other big GT coupes that I really want.
Think about having someone put photos on the TV of the cars you’re talking about… be a great added visual
Plus you don’t have to source the inserts 👍🏻
I had a 2003 G35 Sport Coupe, 6MT w/ Brembos in red. I agree, the back end of the car is beautiful. The front end I always thought was pretty ugly. I couldn't believe how heavy of a car it really was. Still though...fun to drive. Would still be driving it to this day if some drunk lady hadn't decided to earn her 4th DWI by hitting my parked car, along with 4 others, totaling it.
Looks like Hyphen's been to the gym this morning.
Can we please be pedantic and apply the Hammer moniker to only W124 cars? Thank you.
Need some insert photos for the cars mentioned. 🙂👍🏼
Re e31 - you need to drive a euro spec 850CSi 6 spd man 5.6L v12 with all wheel steering, etc - not the standard 840ci and 850ci - completely different cars… the CSi is a GT cruiser
Iconic Sport Sedans for life🙌
Holy shit the production quality and quantity has increased exponentially!
Are these new episodes going on Apple podcasts? Or just UA-cam?
Episodes are available on Apple and Spotify, etc.
open.spotify.com/show/2Ry1fmDjXzc65Cr1goPd6n
podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-carmudgeon-show/id1620252081
@@TheCarmudgeonShow thanks!
I found this episode 48 listened to it. And then when I finished episode 49 came out! Perfect timing. I have a 2017 golf r with the dsg. I just got it about 2 months ago and I've done a couple things to it. I love the car for a daily. And the reason I got the dsg is because the girl friend can drive it and I already have two manual cars. What's your thoughts on the dogbone insert on the dsg cars. I've heard that they can be a little bit louder. ?
If it’s the same as the rear engine mount I was told it’s more of a GTI thing to help with wheel hop/axle tramp and wasn’t necessary on the R. it made the shifts harsher around town and if the box shifted mid lifting off the accelerator it was very harsh but did help with axle hop. so if you just want it to be a comfortable practical daily I wouldn’t bother. Absolutely get the “stage 1” engine and gearbox tunes though, they make a huge difference to how the car drives, mine has the APR ones and hasn’t had any issues in the 5 years I have had them on the car.
@@steven44799 wow what a bone head I am. I didn't even think about the awd aspect of it. Yes I want this car to be more civilized than the other two. Sometimes doing too much can really ruin the driving of a car. I once put in a poly trans mount bushing on a 350z and it lasted one drive. Completely ruined the car.thanks for pointing out my ignorance
I could stare at the angry Italian and handsome one’s biceps all day.
Maybe less what you literally wanted in your youth, but..... I was born in 86: you may have had a Ferrari F50 poster on your bedroom wall, wishing you were driving a Wrangler to high school, and your rich friend's dad drove an E39 M5, and 20 years later that's your grail car.
I would absolutely kill for a Peugeot 405 MI-16 - I've always wanted one of those, completely stock and in white.
i love sedans, best looking new 2022 sedan is the BMW i4 M50 3.5sec 0-60
I missed you guys!
lol I drove my Benz with over 170k miles twice across country (round trip). Arrived in CA with over 186k miles.
I could’ve gotten a G35 for $5k. But it cost $5k and had 100,000 miles on it on some of the worst roads in America.
May I suggest connecting a Chromecast or Apple TV to the TV, and have some images on the screen of whatever you're talking about... All you need is an iPad or any old laptop to cast it to the screen💡I mean some of us do not have encyclopedic knowledge of every obscure north american car! As much as we want to😁
I just bought an E39 M5 and I also have a 1995 750iL and a 1994 530i. I will always own sedans. Don't care if value goes up or not.
Please have pictures of the 89 cars you mention in the video.
Great episode guys!
I like it, I watch it, Keep it going. Thanks :)
It's hilarious that the study ever gained traction. I drive a car made 7 years before I was born and hope one day to get a specific car 20 years older than that one day. Literally half the comments or thumbs up I get while driving are from other young people or even highschoolers. Of course the rest are other car people or people old enough to remember the car.
The only thing that will make this theory true is if these cars are completely hidden and die out in peoples memories as a potential aspiration. For someone who has driven inconspicuous Hondas up until now, it is a super weird but extremely positive experience to have consistently positive responses to a car. Especially the mess that is mine.
ALWAYS HIT THE DEER. ALWAYS HIT THE DEER. Insurance companies DO NOT pay out for hitting the tree because YOU swerved to MISS the deer. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS HIT THE DEER.
Can you have an episode about ugly cars? Like the Honda Insight? Or maybe the PT Cruiser? Or the Nissan Cube? When is does an ugly car become an eclectic classic?
Hyphen holding the pose for triceps display for an hour.
My 67 gto went on the highway and to work every day for 7 years while I owned it. So idled and ran on the road. No issues at all. How could that change if well maintained.
i drive and prefer the e46 sedan over the coupe. maybe it's about instrumental value something something? anyway, love that this show is now a regular thing
I agree, 3-series coupes usually look more like 2 door sedans.
Some cars are valuable as art pieces. That’s the Ferrari value.
Jason, what is the story with that silence of the lambs mannequin @1:35 ?
I'm not a boomer but for some reason I love the maserati gran turismo. Have kind of wanted one since they came out. No interest in the QP. That being said, I generally prefer the most practical body style of car (bought an e46 sedan instead of coupe, like the taycan cross turismo over the sedan, etc), but I guess I just love the gran turismo. Even agree with DTS on the w124 wagon being the pick of that E class lineup. My wealthy old boomer dad actually hates coupes and only buys sedans even though he has no need for back seats anymore. Maybe my spiritual age is 80.
How much time till the same thing happens with Sporty SUVs?
4 door e30 m3 kind of exists in europe, it's called the 320is and was only sold in Italy with a destroked s14 engine making around a 170hp.
No. Only 2-door 320is (normal coupé body, no the m3's one) and only made for the Italian and Portuguese markets due to a "super tax" for engines from 2000cc and over. It produced 192hp and 210Nm.
@@fabssgarage Sry for wrong hp numbers, its been a while since Ive looked them up, but 4 door 320is' exist, 1206 of them.
Should I buy a R129 SL?
Have had a E30 cabrio and hated the body flex. Beautiful car but I like to drive my cars - that’s why I am worried that SL is bigger and flex will be even worse.
Looking for a V8 Vantage but just a bit out of reach so looking for something else in the mean time.
So much Carmudgeon in the past two weeks. I dont know how to handle all this.
Another great one
Hyphen if you like more for less money ? And prefer sedan vs coupe. Would you prefer a porsche panamera vs a 911.
The panamera is way cheaper by year and miles and did come with a 6 cyl manual ?
I'm kinda missing the "in your face" awkward Hyphen close-ups but that's okay.