Shadow of Modor is more like a shoot/beat em up, there are orcs literally EVERYWHERE. Its a power fantasy (after all you are the pseudo wielder of a ring who is simultaneously a wraith who can't actually be killed with the power to mind control, teleport around the map and command armies) and volume is more like a strategy/puzzle game where allowing the players to reset states is in fact a compromise in design since players have essentially broken the puzzle. Just because Batman has a good balance of both, does not make it better game by design.
I always loved how the Batman games made it feel like the enemies were actually afraid of you. I miss that feeling, and it would be really cool to see it more.
I love the way a group of enemies starts confident ("he's only one and there's so many of us!"), but as you take them down they start to get scared until the last guy is practically pissing his pants
@@achillesa5894 Not just practically. If you leave someone alive for long enough while stringing up all his friends and making a spectacle of it he might decide not to shoot you if you just walk up to him or land in front of him. It's somewhat tough to get though, as the smaller arenas often don't have enough enemies/room to not make him walk into the same "corpses" over and over.
@@arnerademacker8548 it's about your efficiency. Even on maps with large number of guards, if they spot you once they would be less likely to get scared since they know youre "vulnerable"
FastAsHeck I think it would be cool for a stealth game to implement a system that determines how brutally you dispatched someone and it would make the other people more afraid. So for example: if you were to just choke someone out, they’d be a little uneasy, but if you decapitated someone and threw them in a fire, everyone would be scared for their lives. Finally I’d have a reason to throw the corpses around in dramatic fashion besides just imagining what the next guy to come through has to see.
@@ryjak955 the closest thing i can think of is the morale system from the Ezio trilogy of Assassins Creed, where guards would flee if you take down the big armored guards first.
I think one of the biggest problems I have with stealth games is how the way they reward perfection dis-incentivizes playing through your mistakes. I find myself more often than not just hitting "reload checkpoint" when I get spotted because I'm after that perfect stealth bonus and don't want to have to play through the whole level again. If a game wanted to encourage players to play through their mistakes, I think the best way to go about it would be rewarding the "one credit clear" run. Beat the level without dying or reloading checkpoints.
This is completely accurate. I've fallen to this trap in stealth games myself, where the reward for a perfect clear trumps trying to play the game dynamically. These kinds of games often reward perfection to the point that it can punish players for playing the game as intended, leading to save scumming rather than working past mistakes. I'm all for rewarding a "ghost" or "perfect" run, but it shouldn't be so much that it prevents players from actually playing the game as intended. Dishonored and other stealth titles have a similar issue with how they often reward pacifist runs as well, it gives players all sorts of cool and lethal toys, and then punishes them for actually using them. Again, I'm for rewarding a perfect run, but not at the expense of encouraging players to actually use the tools they have properly by motivating them to ignore the cool toys they've been given. Too many of these kinds of games make it not worth it to play the game in the fun way because the rewards for perfection or pacifism are too good compared to more dynamic gameplay.
Totally agree with you, Dishonored is a perfect example.. It isn't as good as everyone says. You get 1000 of ways/items to kill enemies... But in the end the game punishes you with a bad ending of you kill too many people or it gives you a bad rating if you don't reload ur save points
Yes, and that is why you have to play Invisible inc. It fixes exactly what is wrong with the genre at the cost of realism and “immersion”. It is also why the Hitman games need an autosave feature: there is so many options to redeem a lost situation, but nobody uses them as you can just reload.
When I look at payday I can only see the missed opportunity of playing for stealth and adapting to mistakes in the run, the missions are kinda binary in the sense that if you get caught in the middle of the heist your objectives "reset" and if you decide to keep going you basically are playing the mission from the start with subpar equipment. There's no incentive to make loadouts that are "not minmaxing stealth so i can have these skills that are for plan B situations", and no incentive to not restart the mission.
@W V The one thing I always liked best was this: if you take out everyone except one guy in a room, there's a chance he'll be really, really scared by then (you can see his heart rate in detective vision). If he's scared enough, you can land directly in front of him, and instead of shooting you, he'll just shit himself for a while.
@@franzluggin398 Even better. Get him scared, then use the disrupter on him and pop up in his face. Then, while he's running to get a new gun, disappear before he turns around. Repeat until bored, then throw an ice grenade and slowly walk toward him before doing the ice takedown.
I didn't know that Batman enemies actually react to your stealth techniques by sabotaging or destroying the scenery that enables them, that's a super cool addition! And stuff like detecting detective vision too, that's actually renewed my interest in maybe watching an LP of these games someday.
The enemies don't learn how to detect your detective vision until Arkham Knight. Arkham Knight was a bit mixed, though. It was a great game with an obvious plot twist and couldn't help but occasionally throw a crappy game into the great game every now and then for no discernible reason. Overall it's a good time, but Arkham Asylum and Arkham City are far better.
@@archmagusofevil Nope. Arkham City is one of the most disappointing games of all time. Absolutely horrendous story, shortest campaign of the main four games, and shitty mandatory Catwoman sections.
I just realized what is missing from the new AC game: That feeling of playing a constant cat and mouse switch. U have an open area with enemies everywhere, and then u need to make a strategy on who to kill first and what order, try to hide not to be spottet. Because u know u can't fight them all off at once. that also made sense for the story since ur supposed to stay hidden to keep the order a scecret
4:12 I guess what really makes Arkham Predator sections so much better than competitors is the mobility. You've got a lot of options to move around the area both for reconnaissance and for going in for a knockout. I feel like the same could be said about other good Stealth games.
In defense of Deus Ex as a stealth game: Yes, you're invulnerable during the takedown move but once the whole room is alerted, you'd be killed instantly if you're not on your guard. Also, thanks to the great level design, the mentioned back and forth between hunter and the hunted actually works really well and always bumps up the tension, sometimes up to the insane. Unlike other stealth games, Deus ex also puts some weight the moral choice on killing an enemy vs just knocking them out or putting them asleep. And due to how the progression systems works, there are loads of ways in which you can alter things to get an advantage or open up new ways to approach things. You can hack and disable security and camera systems, you can augment yourself so that you will see the enemies' lines of sight on your radar or get a visual representation of how noisy you are. Each room in a "dungeon" requires careful planning and execution. Sure, Bat Man got a lot more hype. But all in all, I wouldn't say, Deus ex is just "some inferior stealth game". My two cents :D
@@ruifigueiredo5486 Trust me, they would be scared if people just vanished too. When he leaves the bodies behind he lives traces of his way of doing things, and actually making it harder for himself as the crooks know who to target. Tactically it makes no sense to reveal that something is wrong too soon, it's best if they never figured out who did it.
The problem with Deus Ex compared to good lethal/non-lethal games is that the moral choice is essentially the only one you make. It isn't the harder approach to play the game non-lethally, there is no benefit to playing lethally, and often the best approach in every single way is to not kill people. Better stealth games balance the risk of harder gameplay, or a more strategic level approach, or takedowns being more drawn out than kills against the moral implications that you are doing the wrong thing. It is always going to be quicker and easier to shoot or stab somebody, but making the choice to take the harder path is where morality comes in. With Deus Ex having the easiest, most obvious path of the game just so happen to be non-lethal makes the lethal approach something you actually have to TRY to do, instead of it being the other way around.
God, I remember playing the challenge maps as Joker. Because you only got one round in your gun, one RC bomb, and a pseudo-detective vision that could only be used while standing in place, that shit was HARD. My favorite mode from the series, hands down.
But one of the key parts to a good stealth game is information. Haveing information to plan a action and then execute on it is one of the most sastifying parts. But a lot of games mess up i think because its hard to go into a liveing, breathing level, and know what to do on your first try. Or third try. So i feel like the game wants me to already know what the answer before i try. Id like some games to explore reconasence mechanics. Like powers to rewind time or seprate the camera from the charicter navagate from any perspective.
Hitman is a good game like this. It isn't exactly what you describe, but it allows you to do those awesome setups, and because of the many ways to complete a level, even if you don't know the coolest or best way to do something, you can get a feel for each level and then go back if you wish to do it in a cooler or better way. It doesn't feel like you need certain knowledge at the start because it's all around you.
@@Spartan96219 i like hitman, i like how you take your prior knowlage of the level from previous attempts and apply it in diffrent ways. But i feel like in hitman and other stealth games, real game doesn't come alive untill after ive invested tens of hours in the game studying how each level ticks. I want to get that second playthru magic on my first playthru. Part if this comes from the story of thease games. I dont feel like a highly trained spy or a master theif pulling off a dareing mission when on my first run at the game and im falling at the first hurtle.
@@checkmate058 I feel MGSV did this well. Every outpost has a hill or mountain in the distance where you can post up, take your binoculars out and mark individual enemies. There's also a living world factor where enemies from other outposts nearby the one you're attacking will come reinforce the outpost you're attacking if an alert is triggered. That brings up the option of disabling enemy communications in an outpost by destroying their radio hub, which you can mark with your binoculars when you're first doing recon. The other option would be to mark the enemies in all surrounding outposts so that when they come in you won't be surprised. Then there's the fact that enemies change shift so having marked other surrounding outposts helps with this as well. Of course you could always just stealthily take out all enemies in surrounding outposts and prevent the main outpost from getting reinforcements if things go bad. I think MGSV is the best stealth game, although I wish they made more use of light and shadow as a major factor like in Thief or Splinter Cell. But every other aspect I think was on point. It took me a long time to play MGSV but that's because I truly was able to get into the role of being this stealth soldier and I would spend a large amount of time circling an outpost and getting an idea of the enemies and their routes and capabilities (what guns they had, equipment they used and so on). Adding the fact that enemies respond dynamically to what you're doing, it always keeps you on your toes. So if you always wait until night to infiltrate then they'll start using night vision or flashlights. And if you always headshot them then they'll start using helmets. So it's always important to do recon. Everything explained in this video I think was actually done way better in MGSV.
@@ryjak955 Yeah it's kind of like a dynamic difficulty system. If you go in guns blazing a lot then next time the enemies will be better with their weapons, perhaps more accurate and/or they'll be fully armoured or they'll call more reinforcements than usual. It basically means you can't play more than a couple of missions using the same strategy because the more you do it the more intense the enemy response, especially in the later missions.
The Arkham games' primary way of increasing enemy awareness comes from their mental state, which is increases not through detection, but through finding other guards you've knocked out. This way, you don't get locked into a frustrating failure loop and punished for your mistakes, but challenged with jumpy bad guys for progressing through the encounter, which also plays into the fantasy of making your enemies absolutely terrified of you. It isn't until later on that either scripted or static difficulty modifiers are added to nullify some of your tactics
One of my favourite stealth memories was from AC origins. I had to take out a general and after several failed attempts to storm his fortress because I sucked at the combat system early one, laid in wait and used Senu (a controllable eagle) to watch him. I knew he would leave so I learned his path and waited to ambush him. It took like half an hour but it felt satisfying because I chose that method and the waiting felt tense and exciting mostly because it didn't feel forced by the game.
@@SavageGreywolf but he didn't give an inclination that he didn't see that part nor didn't watch the entire video. He's just praising untitled goose game.
It's not about bat being scary, it's about batman making bad guys fear what he fears =p Now imagine if it was clown-man or agoraphobia man, that would be a whole other level!
Eh, as someone who's normally a fan of stealth systems, I was not impressed with the Arkham games' predator mode, aside from the fact that enemies grew increasingly tense and paranoid as they noticed their allies missing. In terms of granular fail states, I only seem to recall having the one middle state between hunter and dead: either fleeing through the map to get to one or two identified safe havens, or just going up to gargoyle perches and hopping from one to the next as quickly as possible until the guards decide that the man shaped thing bouncing from gargoyle to gargoyle evading their gunfire couldn't possibly be the batman because he would never expect such a stupid method of evasion to work. In other games, it's much more granular. Even in the original Thief: The Dark Project, guards would notice open doors and missing valuables - things you need to cause to progress through the game. You had an excellent array of options - sword, blackjack and broadhead arrows were all ambush weapons, but the water and moss arrows that put out lights and made ground silent to walk on were excellent tools, noisemaker arrows were a perfect distraction, and if you did get stuck in a fight, gas arrows were a one-hit knockout on most targets, and fire arrows would do in a pinch as they were explosive (though the explosion tended to attract every guard in a one mile radius. The older Metal Gear Solid games had 3 very distinct granular fail states, and a fourth that was less obvious. Alert mode is actual combat, and much like the Arkham games, direct combat is largely futile, though this is achieved through continuous summoning of reinforcements rather than bullets doing massive damage. Evasion mode means the enemy doesn't know where you are, but is doing a search-and-clear sweep of the area they last saw you in. Caution mode has extra enemy soldiers in the area and more sophisticated patrol routes. And it's only at the end of that last state that the game returns to normal. The less obvious failure state, introduced in MGS2, was leaving bodies on the floor and being forced to hide. If the body was discovered by one of the other guards, they would either wake up the unconscious/sleeping man, or radio in that one of their men had died and they needed a replacement. Unconscious and dead soldiers would also trigger a caution mode, because someone being beaten into unconsciousness or shot is highly suspicious, while sleeping soldiers were just assumed to be lazy and got kicked awake. So your right: granular fail states are good. Arkham is just an inferior example of the concept. There's also the matter of mechanically overpowering the character. In games like Dishonored, despite my being not very good at the combat system, I rarely find a situation where I can't kill the enemies that come after me, and I've never been so compromised that I can't just Blink to safety. (Aside from those murdery ghosts in the last level of Death of the Outsider, anyway) Thief No Subtitle (the new shiny one) managed to thoroughly ruin things with the focus mechanic, as well as just being a generally mediocre game. Compare that to MGS4, which manages to give you 70-odd weapons of basically all types that you could see a person using, as well as a few that seem unlikely (Rail Gun), give you hundreds of shots with most of them, and still manages to present a situation where you're in a losing battle. (At least at higher difficulties; Easy is called easy for a reason). Compare that with the older Thief games, that even if they give you a wealth of equipment to work with, like Thief: Deadly Shadows does, still has you running and hiding when the tables are turned.
good write up. I played the first two of the Arkham games series and the hopping around from one to the next gargoyle for me is also the first thing that comes to my mind remembering, but still had lots of fun with it nontheless.
@@gerdhagen u should play arkam knight it feels for stealthy whe. The stealth sections arive and in free play there are many options u can hack,u can sabotage u can distract it's very fun
Idk. I always found the gargoyles made it too easy. Playing as catwoman made it significantly more challenging because you were always at risk of being discovered and it was hard to keep an eye on all the enemies at once
I agree. The "running away" part often times was just looking up and pulling out your grapple, rather than actually smartly trying to evade. It didn't help that in addition to being great stealth points the gargoyles were also great vantage points to plan your attack from, also allowing you to deploy all your gadgets really easily without being spotted. They were too stronk for literally every situation, basically.
The vantage points do get eliminated from use in several points throughout the games. They could be sabotaged, destroyed and sometimes they’re not there at all. What they do add however is space for you too analyze the situation and plan accordingly, giving room for creativity and tactical thinking.
A game I really liked for stealthy play was the first Crysis. Once you've finished the game and switch to the hardest mode, stealth really comes into play and you can outsmart the game without battles until it is necessary. Feels really good!
One stealth game I really like is "second sight" for the PS2. It didn't have fancy AI or dynamic levels, but it did have really nifty methods of strategy when it came to sneaking around. The protagonist has psychic powers, so you could do stuff like move a trash can with telekinesis as a distraction, execute a foe with a psi blast, and even scout ahead with astral projection. One of the best parts was you could mind control one opponent to have them shoot the others, then watch as the confused guards fight each other while you're safely hidden 2 rooms away.
I recall somebody arguing with me a long time ago that the Arkham games are not stealth games. I was always confused by that line of thinking. While they are certainly not stealth exclusively, stealth factors into them quite a lot. Perhaps they think that stealth games must ONLY have stealth or that stealth games are ONLY reactive. The back and forth in the Arkham games is absolutely one of the best parts.
Batman Arkham Knight is literally so amazing because your enemies genuinely FEAR you as a predator once you start taking them out and they know you're not messing around. At first they say things like "He's just one man" and stuff, but by the end they're actually shitting their pants desperately trying to communicate to their other teammates "Oh god, where is he?!" "Batman doesn't kill... Right??"
Mark of the Ninja, shown in the video, is probably among the best stealth games I've ever played. I think the 2D view together with how the game shows you the vision cone etc. of your enemies makes planning your approach really, really fun. It also does this mix between hunting and reacting really, really well. Probably because, just like the Arkham games, getting away can actually be a lot of fun, but you really don't want to mess with more than one enemy at the same time. On top of that, it also has a nice set of toys for you to fiddle around with.
Growing up I played games like Hitman and Arkham Origins trying to get it just right and thought that when I messed up that was it start over again. I never really did take the time to see “but what if I let the story continue...” Thank you for showing me this new idea. Have a good day or night 😊
Got the Batman trilogy free from EpicGames recently and I've been digging it! As a longtime fan of the Animated Series, it's grand to get to play in the boots of the bat himself. Even if he's a *wee* bit grittier than his older variants. Still maintains that authentic personality unlike some of the nonsense Hollywood churns out.
This video made me realize how important reward systems are because in far too many games a high score isn't an indicator of fun or at least skill but of a boring, predictive and repetitive gameplay loop the player is actively encouraged to follow despite leading to a worse experience. I'd really liked to see a video on the topic. Take dishonored as an odd example. Sure, you can murder everyone you see and there is no active score system but the game tells you pretty early on that your decisions will impact the world in a negative way and at the end of the levels there are the usual numbers which normally wouldn't matter as a mere statistic but for a game that defined freedom in level design and overall gameplay it definetly had a very large emphasis on keeping everyone alive and not being spotted *ever* . There just wasn't any reward for playing like a bloodthirsty maniac - that is why karma systems always bother me. Why should I kill the goons at all? Keep in mind that I love the way Dishonored implemented the changes in the world but found it odd that the way the game expects you to play is so far off from its scoreboard. And in all fairness, it's mechanics to achieve harmless stealth were so boring in the first game. Same thing with metal gear and a lot of similar titles. The same stupid score system that tells you that there is a right and a wrong way to play the game - even though it really should be the player who makes this decison and thereby creates his own experience - which makes stealth fun. Why all of this negative feedback. You get spotted? Scorepenaltiy. You kill someone? Scorepenaltiy. I really think that this is an issue that deserves a lot more attention in the studios.
Completely agree. I never like it when devs tell you this is the right way to play, you are playing the wrong way. This is what happened in XCOM 2. They tell me I'm playing too slow and too careful so they put a mechanic to speed me up. It's none of your business if I enjoy slow and methodical, I didn't buy the game for your enjoyment, I bought it for MINE, and I have the right to play whatever style I enjoy.
@@One.Zero.One101 Restrictions can be fun. They can work. But as your example perfectly illustrates, there is a time and a place. Unsinnig it for a special mission or adding an additional special challenge for anyone who wants to? Fine, go for it. Making it a mandatory base component of the entire experience? In a game that’s built to be used as a big battle puzzle to try out different techniques? Insane. Sandbox titles need freedom, not chains. There are excellent dungeon crawlers and games where such a decision is integral to the entire experience, where a restricted gameplay works excellent - and there are those, where it feels like an add on which was tacked on but never really analysed.
Deus Ex - Human Revolution was one of the best stealth experiences I've had ... largely because I thought that taking out guards made you lose the stealth XP bonus so I was trying hard to stealth through the game without taking out any guards.
Excellent work as usual. I often haven't even played (or heard of) games you talk about, but the insight you bring and the clarity, rhythm and good humour by which you render them always make them a joy to watch. Now off to check out people make games! Thanks for your good work and your good word, peace ✌️
The Mr. Freeze fight: Not only can you use a multitude of takedowns, all which can be used on the normal roster of enemies. But every takedown only works once on him, afterwards he has learned and the player has to look for a different one. So not only have you know how to execute a specific takedown, you also have to know more than one.
i feel that the sniper elite games show this concept really well. the levels in those games require some level of diligence and patience, as well as planning and reacting to the enemies actions. I often find myself running from almost every enemy in the compound because i missed a head shot on on of the lower-end infantries, but its still is possible to recover from any mistake you make.
I think save-scumming stealth games can be reallf good, if they are made with that in mind and commit to it. For instance Commandos & a spiritual successor of sorts set in feudal Japan, Shadow Tactics - are very save scummy, if you get caught- most of the time you are done. The challenge here is that each map is a huge inter-connected puzzle where each enemy is a part of unraveling it, where you need to find out exactly where, how, using whan tool or strategy, and in what order you need to take out each enemy/puzzle piece. It is a remarkably fun type of stealth gameplay based on a different concept - but it does require REALLY good level design to work.
Your comment about Deus Ex's cinematic takedowns was a little unfair imo. Enemy gunfire in that game is usually instant death and relying on melee takedowns requires a sizeable investment in resources and skillpoints. The Arkham games have a lot of mechanics to disable enemy gunmen, especially from City onwards. And that's not mentioning the handful of instant escape moves that Batman is given. I loved the Arkham games but the solutions to enemy patrols feel so spoonfed most of the time. This is totally anecdotal but nothing will top the moment in DE:HR when a 10+ swat team comes in to sweep the room after a cinematic. All it takes it one gas grenade thrown into their tactical huddle to end the encounter immediately. I felt way more agency and cunning in that moment than I ever have in the Arkham series.
One thing that I find extremely satisfying about stealth games, is finding ways to completely ghost (never detected. Ideally never even noticed/gone to yellow alert) There just is something extremely satisfying about doing something that it feels like the designer steers you away from, but that works anyways.
There are four Arkham games. I don't know why Arkham Origins gets such a bad rap and gets ignored as if it isn't a part of this series. It's not Arkham Asylum or Arkham City, but it is a solid entry in the franchise, even though it wasn't developed by Rocksteady, and Mark Hamill isn't the younger Joker's voice. It's not a bad game at all and fits in with the rest pretty well. It has some of the best boss fights in the series, works as a prequel overall and has a solid introduction for the Joker, as well as being a Year One style game that doesn't rehash Batman's Origin story, and can easily be argued to be better than Arkham Knight depending on how you feel about the Bat-Tank vehicle combat segments and how disruptive they are to the Arkham series traditional gameplay. I'm not saying it's the best in the series by far, just that it deserves to be counted and doesn't deserve to be treated like it's X-men Origins: Wolverine as if it was some sort of travesty that we've collectively decided to pretend doesn't exist. It was a decent game that addressed some of the complaints about previous titles, and really didn't do anything particularly great beyond that despite not really doing anything badly. It doesn't really deserve the flack it gets, especially not after Arkham Knight. I'd say it's no worse than Arkham Knight at worst, and better at best. Neither is as good as Arkham City or Arkham Asylum.
@@Great_Scott_ Having played all Arkham games of the series on PC, I didn't like Arkham City nearly as much as the others. It didn't really capture the magic of what makes a good Batman game.
I really enjoy your videos! I love video games, and you show sides of games that I don't normally think about and it's very interesting. Your voice also fits very well for this video style.
I feel like, in a way, Breath of the Wild did this well in Master Mode. Because it tiers up enemies, but not their weapons, not all fights will award weapons with the lifetime damage to kill the next enemy. However, there are a few easy ways to increase lifetime damage. Use normal combos with Critical Hit weapons to proc the boosted attack more often, headshots with bows and mounted combat, and most importantly... Sneak Strikes. These deal, like, 10x the damage of a regular swing, but require going through a semi lengthy animation and getting right in point blank range of an enemy that might be able to wipe you in one hit. While it might not OHKO enemies like in the regular game, it shreds off large parts of their health, setting them up for you to be able to kill them with an on-tier weapon, and open battles by dealing a large amount of damage. It guarentees nearby enemies will detect you if you don't kill, but they'd be doing that anyway. Now, you can open with, potentially, a thousand damage.
Really nice video! I think it went on for a little long, you could have probably shaved down on some fluff, however the overall point is nicely packaged! Keep it up, keep improving! :)
Deus ex human revolution stealth changes as you learn more. At first, you're the hunted. You don't know the way around the level and enemy routes. The longer you play, the more you learn and the more you progress toward being the hunter. This learning time gets shorter and shorter as you upgrade your augments.
14:45 bats are cute, bats are harmless 2019, 2020 bats are dev3sating when in a soup. We shouldn't be afraid of batman we should be afraid of bat soup man
With a maxed out smoke bomb, you can silently takedown 3 goons and then knockout the last, hop over a railing and multi-takedown the investigating goons. I cleared 7 in a matter of seconds using this method.
my favourite thing about the arkham series is how they added mechanics on each iteration without reducing the usefulness of the previously used mechanics from the last game. i find the missions in the arkham games are the weakest point. they have an amazing system of cyclic gameplay with a huge open world and great AI , yet most of the missions are "sneak into here to hit this switch" or "work your way to this room by sneaking through this room and fighting through this room" the freeze fight in city was a great example of how the missions COULD have been done, there are a huge number of great missions like this, instead we get mostly the same thing repeated hundreds of times through the series, (not saying the general mechanics are bad, in fact the fighting in all of the arkham games are amazing, and all of the sneaking is amazing,) its just that the gameplay mechanics get repeated too many times without much else thrown in.... arkham knight tried to mix things up a fair bit with the batmobile but tbh it seems like more of a fad and i dread when im told "take out the tanks before doing the next bit"
Great video and great text. Loved tat i found your channel, my only complaint is the fast pace of ininterupt text, it gets tiring after some time. Gave us some time time to breach between parts with some things like "like these *let some video plays as example*". Otherwise, really great work!
Random stealth idea. Being hunter & hunted at the same time. There are no regular attacks, only stealth attacks. Stealth attacks are melee distance only & from a 1st person perspective. If 2 people see each other, nothing happens. Turning speed & FoV are same across participants to prevent against cheating. There are gadgets for noisemaker traps, moving decoys, motion detectors (1 ping w/ x second recharge), teleports (w/ x second preparation), invisibility (it's limited time & breaks on running) etc.. Movement has no noise generation unless running, walking over traps or map specific obstacles. There could also be special rules like "teleport (away from enemies/randomly) if you see an enemy for x seconds" that forces you to look away, take action or let the teleport happen? In this kind of game, the AI would be at a disadvantage, so tutorial AI only? What's your opinion?
I won't ever forget the final predator scenario in the story of Arkham City (i won't spoil it though) I had pulled out nearly all the stops, and pretty quickly wiped out what would've been a very difficult room in mere minutes And i have the entire game before-hand to thank for the practice i got to execute a predator mission so easily Also, i know this isn't the topic of the video, but i love the combat of Arkham City, it's kinda simple, but it's very fun Sometimes i loaded up that one penguin arena and just fought endless goons for hours, they couldn't exactly do shit, though, cause i also mastered the combat system A man with no gun is a screwed man indeed (Even then, i have alot of options for dealing with it, even out of stealth, my favorite being to break their gun using a combo ability, it's so amusing to break weapons...)
Also-Also How come you didn't ever mention the fact that you actually can scare the goons if you play your cards right If you never get caught and mess around with the enemies using alot of sneaky traps, they'll start getting paranoid One time i had one guy left, and he was freakin' the fuck out Nothing was ever more gratifying than terrifying the goons, by being *_Batman_*
I actually don't even remember that takedown animations in Deus Ex Mankind Divided stopped time and therefore made you invulnerable because as a stealth player I would avoid as much as possible to takedown NPCs when they're really close one to another. So it is indeed a problem yeah, but it's not a big one and that doesn't make stealth in this game less fun to play. Usually stealth games make you visually vulnerable during takedowns but a lot of them forget to make the player vulnerable from an auditory point of view if you take out a guard really close to another one and that was the case for example in Batman Arkham games.
Deus Ex Invisible war is the other extreme. Don't even bother with the stealth or nothlethal. The traq gun in the first game was interesting, the one here is less useful.
I am a huge fan of the game Payday 2 in which you are heisters robbing things like stores of museums or whatever, and while the game is mostly just a shooter there are stealth missions in which you silently take out guards and try to sneak out with the goods without being caught, however you can get caught and then the place starts swarming with cops and it turns into a regular shooter mission, except you've got no body armor and small weak weapons because you were being stealthy, and the game gives you tools like an item that lets you switch your armor mid mission in order to be prepared for the cops that are coming, except no body does. If you fail the stealth, everyone just restarts the mission and gives it another shot which always felt kinda lame to me because I think having the possibility of having to be prepared for the chance of messing up and having to now deal with being in a shoot out would be more interesting. But the ability to just, reset makes no one do that
I have watched so many of your videos that I have started listening to some of your patreons, like Reys Dad and Daniel Metjes or how ever it's spelled lol. Thanks for supporting this guy to all of you that do. Maybe once I escape my college bills I can do the same lol
About that bit about dishonored and it’s stealth, I beat a level using rats just rats in dishonored 1 I’d have to track down the old clip since it’s about 2 years old now but I did, I messed up and was in a tough spot (the basement in the golden cat) and I ran, and well, rats everywhere, so I ran to both targets killed them killed a couple guards and ran out all without being killed, amazingly
![[Former WR] Batman: Arkham City Speedrun (NG+) in 15:16](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/nY-3CfwukMY/mqdefault.jpg)
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Shadow of Modor is more like a shoot/beat em up, there are orcs literally EVERYWHERE. Its a power fantasy (after all you are the pseudo wielder of a ring who is simultaneously a wraith who can't actually be killed with the power to mind control, teleport around the map and command armies) and volume is more like a strategy/puzzle game where allowing the players to reset states is in fact a compromise in design since players have essentially broken the puzzle. Just because Batman has a good balance of both, does not make it better game by design.
I always loved how the Batman games made it feel like the enemies were actually afraid of you. I miss that feeling, and it would be really cool to see it more.
I love the way a group of enemies starts confident ("he's only one and there's so many of us!"), but as you take them down they start to get scared until the last guy is practically pissing his pants
@@achillesa5894 Not just practically. If you leave someone alive for long enough while stringing up all his friends and making a spectacle of it he might decide not to shoot you if you just walk up to him or land in front of him. It's somewhat tough to get though, as the smaller arenas often don't have enough enemies/room to not make him walk into the same "corpses" over and over.
@@arnerademacker8548 it's about your efficiency. Even on maps with large number of guards, if they spot you once they would be less likely to get scared since they know youre "vulnerable"
FastAsHeck I think it would be cool for a stealth game to implement a system that determines how brutally you dispatched someone and it would make the other people more afraid. So for example: if you were to just choke someone out, they’d be a little uneasy, but if you decapitated someone and threw them in a fire, everyone would be scared for their lives.
Finally I’d have a reason to throw the corpses around in dramatic fashion besides just imagining what the next guy to come through has to see.
@@ryjak955 the closest thing i can think of is the morale system from the Ezio trilogy of Assassins Creed, where guards would flee if you take down the big armored guards first.
I think one of the biggest problems I have with stealth games is how the way they reward perfection dis-incentivizes playing through your mistakes. I find myself more often than not just hitting "reload checkpoint" when I get spotted because I'm after that perfect stealth bonus and don't want to have to play through the whole level again. If a game wanted to encourage players to play through their mistakes, I think the best way to go about it would be rewarding the "one credit clear" run. Beat the level without dying or reloading checkpoints.
This is completely accurate. I've fallen to this trap in stealth games myself, where the reward for a perfect clear trumps trying to play the game dynamically.
These kinds of games often reward perfection to the point that it can punish players for playing the game as intended, leading to save scumming rather than working past mistakes.
I'm all for rewarding a "ghost" or "perfect" run, but it shouldn't be so much that it prevents players from actually playing the game as intended.
Dishonored and other stealth titles have a similar issue with how they often reward pacifist runs as well, it gives players all sorts of cool and lethal toys, and then punishes them for actually using them.
Again, I'm for rewarding a perfect run, but not at the expense of encouraging players to actually use the tools they have properly by motivating them to ignore the cool toys they've been given.
Too many of these kinds of games make it not worth it to play the game in the fun way because the rewards for perfection or pacifism are too good compared to more dynamic gameplay.
I thought I was the only one who did that
Totally agree with you, Dishonored is a perfect example.. It isn't as good as everyone says. You get 1000 of ways/items to kill enemies... But in the end the game punishes you with a bad ending of you kill too many people or it gives you a bad rating if you don't reload ur save points
Yes, and that is why you have to play Invisible inc. It fixes exactly what is wrong with the genre at the cost of realism and “immersion”.
It is also why the Hitman games need an autosave feature: there is so many options to redeem a lost situation, but nobody uses them as you can just reload.
When I look at payday I can only see the missed opportunity of playing for stealth and adapting to mistakes in the run, the missions are kinda binary in the sense that if you get caught in the middle of the heist your objectives "reset" and if you decide to keep going you basically are playing the mission from the start with subpar equipment. There's no incentive to make loadouts that are "not minmaxing stealth so i can have these skills that are for plan B situations", and no incentive to not restart the mission.
'Bats are basically harmless'
Well that aged poorly......
I feel like in the Batman games, even actually getting shot at with guns feels like it's all going according to plan.
@W V The one thing I always liked best was this: if you take out everyone except one guy in a room, there's a chance he'll be really, really scared by then (you can see his heart rate in detective vision). If he's scared enough, you can land directly in front of him, and instead of shooting you, he'll just shit himself for a while.
@@franzluggin398 Even better. Get him scared, then use the disrupter on him and pop up in his face. Then, while he's running to get a new gun, disappear before he turns around. Repeat until bored, then throw an ice grenade and slowly walk toward him before doing the ice takedown.
tzeentch is very proud
I love how the game made you feel like the enemies are scared of you, even when you are heavily outnumbered
Ah yes, my favorite Hitman target, Mr. Krabs. Truly an unforgettable mission.
Shame he was an Illusive Target.
the first "sneak attack" in Shadow of Mordor is most adorable
Yeah... Mouse1 isn't gonna be used to "kiss my wife" ever again... (Me on my first playthrough)
(X) kiss your wife
(0) dominate
(^) brutalize
@@Shoxic666 Ioreth is into sum kinky shit
I didn't know that Batman enemies actually react to your stealth techniques by sabotaging or destroying the scenery that enables them, that's a super cool addition! And stuff like detecting detective vision too, that's actually renewed my interest in maybe watching an LP of these games someday.
The enemies don't learn how to detect your detective vision until Arkham Knight. Arkham Knight was a bit mixed, though. It was a great game with an obvious plot twist and couldn't help but occasionally throw a crappy game into the great game every now and then for no discernible reason. Overall it's a good time, but Arkham Asylum and Arkham City are far better.
@@archmagusofevil
Nope. Arkham City is one of the most disappointing games of all time. Absolutely horrendous story, shortest campaign of the main four games, and shitty mandatory Catwoman sections.
@@Great_Scott_ Accept my opinions!
Why not just play them yourself? They’re great and cheap as hell!
Hey guys, just saying... if you didn't mind Epic games, all 3 games were free there almost a week ago.
I just realized what is missing from the new AC game: That feeling of playing a constant cat and mouse switch.
U have an open area with enemies everywhere, and then u need to make a strategy on who to kill first and what order, try to hide not to be spottet. Because u know u can't fight them all off at once.
that also made sense for the story since ur supposed to stay hidden to keep the order a scecret
11:05 "killing in hitman is much more than just sneaking up and pressing a button"
misses 4 times before hitting
4:12 I guess what really makes Arkham Predator sections so much better than competitors is the mobility. You've got a lot of options to move around the area both for reconnaissance and for going in for a knockout. I feel like the same could be said about other good Stealth games.
In defense of Deus Ex as a stealth game:
Yes, you're invulnerable during the takedown move but once the whole room is alerted, you'd be killed instantly if you're not on your guard.
Also, thanks to the great level design, the mentioned back and forth between hunter and the hunted actually works really well and always bumps up the tension, sometimes up to the insane.
Unlike other stealth games, Deus ex also puts some weight the moral choice on killing an enemy vs just knocking them out or putting them asleep. And due to how the progression systems works, there are loads of ways in which you can alter things to get an advantage or open up new ways to approach things. You can hack and disable security and camera systems, you can augment yourself so that you will see the enemies' lines of sight on your radar or get a visual representation of how noisy you are.
Each room in a "dungeon" requires careful planning and execution.
Sure, Bat Man got a lot more hype. But all in all, I wouldn't say, Deus ex is just "some inferior stealth game".
My two cents :D
And Adam Jensen is at least smart enough to move bodies.. :D Somehow the big bad bat has not figured that one out yet..
@@Hirnlego999 lol, true :D
@@Hirnlego999 the point of leaving the bodies behind is to scare the other enemies its a gameplay mechanic
@@ruifigueiredo5486 Trust me, they would be scared if people just vanished too. When he leaves the bodies behind he lives traces of his way of doing things, and actually making it harder for himself as the crooks know who to target.
Tactically it makes no sense to reveal that something is wrong too soon, it's best if they never figured out who did it.
The problem with Deus Ex compared to good lethal/non-lethal games is that the moral choice is essentially the only one you make. It isn't the harder approach to play the game non-lethally, there is no benefit to playing lethally, and often the best approach in every single way is to not kill people. Better stealth games balance the risk of harder gameplay, or a more strategic level approach, or takedowns being more drawn out than kills against the moral implications that you are doing the wrong thing. It is always going to be quicker and easier to shoot or stab somebody, but making the choice to take the harder path is where morality comes in. With Deus Ex having the easiest, most obvious path of the game just so happen to be non-lethal makes the lethal approach something you actually have to TRY to do, instead of it being the other way around.
God, I remember playing the challenge maps as Joker. Because you only got one round in your gun, one RC bomb, and a pseudo-detective vision that could only be used while standing in place, that shit was HARD. My favorite mode from the series, hands down.
But one of the key parts to a good stealth game is information.
Haveing information to plan a action and then execute on it is one of the most sastifying parts.
But a lot of games mess up i think because its hard to go into a liveing, breathing level, and know what to do on your first try. Or third try. So i feel like the game wants me to already know what the answer before i try.
Id like some games to explore reconasence mechanics.
Like powers to rewind time or seprate the camera from the charicter navagate from any perspective.
Hitman is a good game like this. It isn't exactly what you describe, but it allows you to do those awesome setups, and because of the many ways to complete a level, even if you don't know the coolest or best way to do something, you can get a feel for each level and then go back if you wish to do it in a cooler or better way. It doesn't feel like you need certain knowledge at the start because it's all around you.
@@Spartan96219 i like hitman, i like how you take your prior knowlage of the level from previous attempts and apply it in diffrent ways.
But i feel like in hitman and other stealth games, real game doesn't come alive untill after ive invested tens of hours in the game studying how each level ticks.
I want to get that second playthru magic on my first playthru.
Part if this comes from the story of thease games.
I dont feel like a highly trained spy or a master theif pulling off a dareing mission when on my first run at the game and im falling at the first hurtle.
@@checkmate058 I feel MGSV did this well. Every outpost has a hill or mountain in the distance where you can post up, take your binoculars out and mark individual enemies. There's also a living world factor where enemies from other outposts nearby the one you're attacking will come reinforce the outpost you're attacking if an alert is triggered. That brings up the option of disabling enemy communications in an outpost by destroying their radio hub, which you can mark with your binoculars when you're first doing recon. The other option would be to mark the enemies in all surrounding outposts so that when they come in you won't be surprised. Then there's the fact that enemies change shift so having marked other surrounding outposts helps with this as well. Of course you could always just stealthily take out all enemies in surrounding outposts and prevent the main outpost from getting reinforcements if things go bad.
I think MGSV is the best stealth game, although I wish they made more use of light and shadow as a major factor like in Thief or Splinter Cell. But every other aspect I think was on point. It took me a long time to play MGSV but that's because I truly was able to get into the role of being this stealth soldier and I would spend a large amount of time circling an outpost and getting an idea of the enemies and their routes and capabilities (what guns they had, equipment they used and so on). Adding the fact that enemies respond dynamically to what you're doing, it always keeps you on your toes. So if you always wait until night to infiltrate then they'll start using night vision or flashlights. And if you always headshot them then they'll start using helmets. So it's always important to do recon. Everything explained in this video I think was actually done way better in MGSV.
MJ C I didn’t know they reacted to the player’s strategies... which might explain why I was so terrible at that game.
@@ryjak955 Yeah it's kind of like a dynamic difficulty system. If you go in guns blazing a lot then next time the enemies will be better with their weapons, perhaps more accurate and/or they'll be fully armoured or they'll call more reinforcements than usual. It basically means you can't play more than a couple of missions using the same strategy because the more you do it the more intense the enemy response, especially in the later missions.
The Arkham games' primary way of increasing enemy awareness comes from their mental state, which is increases not through detection, but through finding other guards you've knocked out. This way, you don't get locked into a frustrating failure loop and punished for your mistakes, but challenged with jumpy bad guys for progressing through the encounter, which also plays into the fantasy of making your enemies absolutely terrified of you. It isn't until later on that either scripted or static difficulty modifiers are added to nullify some of your tactics
One of my favourite stealth memories was from AC origins. I had to take out a general and after several failed attempts to storm his fortress because I sucked at the combat system early one, laid in wait and used Senu (a controllable eagle) to watch him. I knew he would leave so I learned his path and waited to ambush him.
It took like half an hour but it felt satisfying because I chose that method and the waiting felt tense and exciting mostly because it didn't feel forced by the game.
This game really makes you feel like Spiderman.
I guess you meant Batman?
@@khodok9636 no
@@jak7826 but he was talking about Batman in the video, how can playing Batman make you feel like spiderman?
@@khodok9636 no
@@khodok9636 Its a meme
Batman: Arkham Asylum really makes you FEEL like batman.
Haan
and its good at it
I did *not* expect to see a SpyParty clip, but it fits so well!
10:44 thanks, now I want a Bikini Bottom themed Hitman DLC...
This is why I don't save during levels in Dishonored(or use autosaves). Thinking on your feet and the rising tension is so amazing
everything you're saying about bataman's stealth applies to untitled goose game too
he mentions it, if you actually watch the entire video
@@SavageGreywolf but he didn't give an inclination that he didn't see that part nor didn't watch the entire video. He's just praising untitled goose game.
It's not about bat being scary, it's about batman making bad guys fear what he fears =p
Now imagine if it was clown-man or agoraphobia man, that would be a whole other level!
@@catfan__ Scariest hero ever. That's how you get a dystopia of perfectly law abiding citizens repressing their shame their whole life.
@The Accidental Hipster A game where you could swing through trees like Tarzan or something WOULD be pretty badass in my opinion!
No, it's just about the swagger
Eh, as someone who's normally a fan of stealth systems, I was not impressed with the Arkham games' predator mode, aside from the fact that enemies grew increasingly tense and paranoid as they noticed their allies missing. In terms of granular fail states, I only seem to recall having the one middle state between hunter and dead: either fleeing through the map to get to one or two identified safe havens, or just going up to gargoyle perches and hopping from one to the next as quickly as possible until the guards decide that the man shaped thing bouncing from gargoyle to gargoyle evading their gunfire couldn't possibly be the batman because he would never expect such a stupid method of evasion to work.
In other games, it's much more granular. Even in the original Thief: The Dark Project, guards would notice open doors and missing valuables - things you need to cause to progress through the game. You had an excellent array of options - sword, blackjack and broadhead arrows were all ambush weapons, but the water and moss arrows that put out lights and made ground silent to walk on were excellent tools, noisemaker arrows were a perfect distraction, and if you did get stuck in a fight, gas arrows were a one-hit knockout on most targets, and fire arrows would do in a pinch as they were explosive (though the explosion tended to attract every guard in a one mile radius.
The older Metal Gear Solid games had 3 very distinct granular fail states, and a fourth that was less obvious. Alert mode is actual combat, and much like the Arkham games, direct combat is largely futile, though this is achieved through continuous summoning of reinforcements rather than bullets doing massive damage. Evasion mode means the enemy doesn't know where you are, but is doing a search-and-clear sweep of the area they last saw you in. Caution mode has extra enemy soldiers in the area and more sophisticated patrol routes. And it's only at the end of that last state that the game returns to normal. The less obvious failure state, introduced in MGS2, was leaving bodies on the floor and being forced to hide. If the body was discovered by one of the other guards, they would either wake up the unconscious/sleeping man, or radio in that one of their men had died and they needed a replacement. Unconscious and dead soldiers would also trigger a caution mode, because someone being beaten into unconsciousness or shot is highly suspicious, while sleeping soldiers were just assumed to be lazy and got kicked awake.
So your right: granular fail states are good. Arkham is just an inferior example of the concept.
There's also the matter of mechanically overpowering the character. In games like Dishonored, despite my being not very good at the combat system, I rarely find a situation where I can't kill the enemies that come after me, and I've never been so compromised that I can't just Blink to safety. (Aside from those murdery ghosts in the last level of Death of the Outsider, anyway) Thief No Subtitle (the new shiny one) managed to thoroughly ruin things with the focus mechanic, as well as just being a generally mediocre game.
Compare that to MGS4, which manages to give you 70-odd weapons of basically all types that you could see a person using, as well as a few that seem unlikely (Rail Gun), give you hundreds of shots with most of them, and still manages to present a situation where you're in a losing battle. (At least at higher difficulties; Easy is called easy for a reason). Compare that with the older Thief games, that even if they give you a wealth of equipment to work with, like Thief: Deadly Shadows does, still has you running and hiding when the tables are turned.
good write up. I played the first two of the Arkham games series and the hopping around from one to the next gargoyle for me is also the first thing that comes to my mind remembering, but still had lots of fun with it nontheless.
@@gerdhagen u should play arkam knight it feels for stealthy whe. The stealth sections arive and in free play there are many options u can hack,u can sabotage u can distract it's very fun
Idk. I always found the gargoyles made it too easy. Playing as catwoman made it significantly more challenging because you were always at risk of being discovered and it was hard to keep an eye on all the enemies at once
I agree. The "running away" part often times was just looking up and pulling out your grapple, rather than actually smartly trying to evade. It didn't help that in addition to being great stealth points the gargoyles were also great vantage points to plan your attack from, also allowing you to deploy all your gadgets really easily without being spotted. They were too stronk for literally every situation, basically.
@@arnerademacker8548 but later on the gargoyles can be destroyed and people shoot them
The tactical advantage of being able to get to the gargoyles and other high perches is SOOOO very Batman though ...
The vantage points do get eliminated from use in several points throughout the games. They could be sabotaged, destroyed and sometimes they’re not there at all.
What they do add however is space for you too analyze the situation and plan accordingly, giving room for creativity and tactical thinking.
VarangianBard that’s what Batman does though he’s always going on gargoyles and quickly escaping sight.
Imagine hearing "Curses! My plans have been foiled again! You'll rue the day you crossed me, Freak Aneurysm Man!"
A game I really liked for stealthy play was the first Crysis. Once you've finished the game and switch to the hardest mode, stealth really comes into play and you can outsmart the game without battles until it is necessary. Feels really good!
One stealth game I really like is "second sight" for the PS2.
It didn't have fancy AI or dynamic levels, but it did have really nifty methods of strategy when it came to sneaking around. The protagonist has psychic powers, so you could do stuff like move a trash can with telekinesis as a distraction, execute a foe with a psi blast, and even scout ahead with astral projection. One of the best parts was you could mind control one opponent to have them shoot the others, then watch as the confused guards fight each other while you're safely hidden 2 rooms away.
This was extremely well written, and thought out, subscribed and can't wait for more!
11:41 is that were the peace was never an option meme comes from
Yes, but the picture itself came from the latest Desinc video if I remember correctly
I recall somebody arguing with me a long time ago that the Arkham games are not stealth games. I was always confused by that line of thinking. While they are certainly not stealth exclusively, stealth factors into them quite a lot. Perhaps they think that stealth games must ONLY have stealth or that stealth games are ONLY reactive.
The back and forth in the Arkham games is absolutely one of the best parts.
This video makes me want to play the Arkham games now. They've been sitting in my library dormant for the longest time.
Sniper Elite is such an underrated stealth sandbox. I can't believe it wasn't included!
Yeah, but not the fourth one
@@TheCraftero yeh..
Batman Arkham Knight is literally so amazing because your enemies genuinely FEAR you as a predator once you start taking them out and they know you're not messing around. At first they say things like "He's just one man" and stuff, but by the end they're actually shitting their pants desperately trying to communicate to their other teammates "Oh god, where is he?!"
"Batman doesn't kill... Right??"
Although in Knight they are starting lose the fear, it's much more noticeable in City.
7 am, watching Adam's new video. Great way to start the day
9:45 "LET HIM GO!"
*procceds to stab the person he wanted you to let go off*
Mark of the Ninja, shown in the video, is probably among the best stealth games I've ever played. I think the 2D view together with how the game shows you the vision cone etc. of your enemies makes planning your approach really, really fun.
It also does this mix between hunting and reacting really, really well. Probably because, just like the Arkham games, getting away can actually be a lot of fun, but you really don't want to mess with more than one enemy at the same time. On top of that, it also has a nice set of toys for you to fiddle around with.
Sick vid! Broke the Invisible Predator system down really well. On an offhand note, I love how deeply black the Arkham Asylum cape is
Yay, an other video!
Predator Section is my favourite of each arkham game like it's just epic
Best god damn singleplayer game series ever!
Growing up I played games like Hitman and Arkham Origins trying to get it just right and thought that when I messed up that was it start over again. I never really did take the time to see “but what if I let the story continue...” Thank you for showing me this new idea. Have a good day or night 😊
"Nobody's winning a fight against entire barracks of guards"
*Casually stops time and starts throwing grenades around*
I beg to differ
Got the Batman trilogy free from EpicGames recently and I've been digging it! As a longtime fan of the Animated Series, it's grand to get to play in the boots of the bat himself. Even if he's a *wee* bit grittier than his older variants. Still maintains that authentic personality unlike some of the nonsense Hollywood churns out.
This video made me realize how important reward systems are because in far too many games a high score isn't an indicator of fun or at least skill but of a boring, predictive and repetitive gameplay loop the player is actively encouraged to follow despite leading to a worse experience. I'd really liked to see a video on the topic.
Take dishonored as an odd example. Sure, you can murder everyone you see and there is no active score system but the game tells you pretty early on that your decisions will impact the world in a negative way and at the end of the levels there are the usual numbers which normally wouldn't matter as a mere statistic but for a game that defined freedom in level design and overall gameplay it definetly had a very large emphasis on keeping everyone alive and not being spotted *ever* . There just wasn't any reward for playing like a bloodthirsty maniac - that is why karma systems always bother me. Why should I kill the goons at all? Keep in mind that I love the way Dishonored implemented the changes in the world but found it odd that the way the game expects you to play is so far off from its scoreboard. And in all fairness, it's mechanics to achieve harmless stealth were so boring in the first game.
Same thing with metal gear and a lot of similar titles. The same stupid score system that tells you that there is a right and a wrong way to play the game - even though it really should be the player who makes this decison and thereby creates his own experience - which makes stealth fun. Why all of this negative feedback. You get spotted? Scorepenaltiy. You kill someone? Scorepenaltiy. I really think that this is an issue that deserves a lot more attention in the studios.
Completely agree. I never like it when devs tell you this is the right way to play, you are playing the wrong way. This is what happened in XCOM 2. They tell me I'm playing too slow and too careful so they put a mechanic to speed me up. It's none of your business if I enjoy slow and methodical, I didn't buy the game for your enjoyment, I bought it for MINE, and I have the right to play whatever style I enjoy.
@@One.Zero.One101 Restrictions can be fun.
They can work.
But as your example perfectly illustrates, there is a time and a place. Unsinnig it for a special mission or adding an additional special challenge for anyone who wants to? Fine, go for it.
Making it a mandatory base component of the entire experience? In a game that’s built to be used as a big battle puzzle to try out different techniques?
Insane.
Sandbox titles need freedom, not chains. There are excellent dungeon crawlers and games where such a decision is integral to the entire experience, where a restricted gameplay works excellent - and there are those, where it feels like an add on which was tacked on but never really analysed.
Deus Ex - Human Revolution was one of the best stealth experiences I've had ... largely because I thought that taking out guards made you lose the stealth XP bonus so I was trying hard to stealth through the game without taking out any guards.
Excellent work as usual. I often haven't even played (or heard of) games you talk about, but the insight you bring and the clarity, rhythm and good humour by which you render them always make them a joy to watch. Now off to check out people make games! Thanks for your good work and your good word, peace ✌️
Watching in 2020 and hearing about bats being harmless... LOL
If possible a video on Sunset overdrive's excellent traversal system
Indeed, the only reason Mr Freeze is so praised is because he puts that awesome system to the test
Loving this!
"No one can win a fight against an entire barrack of guards"
*StealthGamerBR wants to know your location*
Batman games have been pretty damn innovative compared to the normal... those kind of games?
The Mr. Freeze fight: Not only can you use a multitude of takedowns, all which can be used on the normal roster of enemies. But every takedown only works once on him, afterwards he has learned and the player has to look for a different one. So not only have you know how to execute a specific takedown, you also have to know more than one.
14:45 aged like milk
i feel that the sniper elite games show this concept really well. the levels in those games require some level of diligence and patience, as well as planning and reacting to the enemies actions. I often find myself running from almost every enemy in the compound because i missed a head shot on on of the lower-end infantries, but its still is possible to recover from any mistake you make.
I think save-scumming stealth games can be reallf good, if they are made with that in mind and commit to it. For instance Commandos & a spiritual successor of sorts set in feudal Japan, Shadow Tactics - are very save scummy, if you get caught- most of the time you are done. The challenge here is that each map is a huge inter-connected puzzle where each enemy is a part of unraveling it, where you need to find out exactly where, how, using whan tool or strategy, and in what order you need to take out each enemy/puzzle piece. It is a remarkably fun type of stealth gameplay based on a different concept - but it does require REALLY good level design to work.
What I like is how it really makes you _feel_ like you're _Batman._
Your comment about Deus Ex's cinematic takedowns was a little unfair imo. Enemy gunfire in that game is usually instant death and relying on melee takedowns requires a sizeable investment in resources and skillpoints. The Arkham games have a lot of mechanics to disable enemy gunmen, especially from City onwards. And that's not mentioning the handful of instant escape moves that Batman is given. I loved the Arkham games but the solutions to enemy patrols feel so spoonfed most of the time. This is totally anecdotal but nothing will top the moment in DE:HR when a 10+ swat team comes in to sweep the room after a cinematic. All it takes it one gas grenade thrown into their tactical huddle to end the encounter immediately. I felt way more agency and cunning in that moment than I ever have in the Arkham series.
I just save scummed and put gas mines before the cinematic. Much easier than perfectly aiming a grenade :p
13:54 "....isn't about being batman but, it's about being batman"
Waiting for the game maker's toolkit Collab episode
One thing that I find extremely satisfying about stealth games, is finding ways to completely ghost (never detected. Ideally never even noticed/gone to yellow alert) There just is something extremely satisfying about doing something that it feels like the designer steers you away from, but that works anyways.
So, the fun in stealth is the part where, you're *not* sneaking and waiting? I don't think I get this.
"and Chao" always cracks me up for some reason. XD
There are four Arkham games. I don't know why Arkham Origins gets such a bad rap and gets ignored as if it isn't a part of this series.
It's not Arkham Asylum or Arkham City, but it is a solid entry in the franchise, even though it wasn't developed by Rocksteady, and Mark Hamill isn't the younger Joker's voice. It's not a bad game at all and fits in with the rest pretty well.
It has some of the best boss fights in the series, works as a prequel overall and has a solid introduction for the Joker, as well as being a Year One style game that doesn't rehash Batman's Origin story, and can easily be argued to be better than Arkham Knight depending on how you feel about the Bat-Tank vehicle combat segments and how disruptive they are to the Arkham series traditional gameplay.
I'm not saying it's the best in the series by far, just that it deserves to be counted and doesn't deserve to be treated like it's X-men Origins: Wolverine as if it was some sort of travesty that we've collectively decided to pretend doesn't exist. It was a decent game that addressed some of the complaints about previous titles, and really didn't do anything particularly great beyond that despite not really doing anything badly. It doesn't really deserve the flack it gets, especially not after Arkham Knight.
I'd say it's no worse than Arkham Knight at worst, and better at best. Neither is as good as Arkham City or Arkham Asylum.
Arkham City is one of the most overrated games of all time, and I say this as a huge Batman fan.
@@Great_Scott_ Having played all Arkham games of the series on PC, I didn't like Arkham City nearly as much as the others. It didn't really capture the magic of what makes a good Batman game.
I really enjoy your videos! I love video games, and you show sides of games that I don't normally think about and it's very interesting. Your voice also fits very well for this video style.
>"bats are basically harmless"
>said in October 2019, two months before IT BEGUN
Coincidence?
14:45
Me: *Looks at Covid 19* Yep... sure...
Really appreciate the shoutout to Bratters' channel, he is the like the Louis Theroux of the games world and he deserves more exposure!
I feel like, in a way, Breath of the Wild did this well in Master Mode. Because it tiers up enemies, but not their weapons, not all fights will award weapons with the lifetime damage to kill the next enemy. However, there are a few easy ways to increase lifetime damage. Use normal combos with Critical Hit weapons to proc the boosted attack more often, headshots with bows and mounted combat, and most importantly... Sneak Strikes. These deal, like, 10x the damage of a regular swing, but require going through a semi lengthy animation and getting right in point blank range of an enemy that might be able to wipe you in one hit. While it might not OHKO enemies like in the regular game, it shreds off large parts of their health, setting them up for you to be able to kill them with an on-tier weapon, and open battles by dealing a large amount of damage. It guarentees nearby enemies will detect you if you don't kill, but they'd be doing that anyway. Now, you can open with, potentially, a thousand damage.
The t rex in penguins museum scared the absolute shit out of me the first time i played arkham city
yo, great desambiguation of the game's Dynamics/pattern solving in psychological/historical context /m/, thanks
What makes the game really good is that it makes you feel like Batman
"bats are basically harmless and quite cute really"........ well that did not go well
Really nice video! I think it went on for a little long, you could have probably shaved down on some fluff, however the overall point is nicely packaged! Keep it up, keep improving! :)
I was not ready for the cutest kitty, how dare you
Love your content my man!
Deus ex human revolution stealth changes as you learn more. At first, you're the hunted. You don't know the way around the level and enemy routes. The longer you play, the more you learn and the more you progress toward being the hunter. This learning time gets shorter and shorter as you upgrade your augments.
Bats ARE cute and lovable, but, let's face it, they ARE a symbol of, if not fear, at least the edges of fear; they're a horror and halloween staple.
14:45 bats are cute, bats are harmless 2019, 2020 bats are dev3sating when in a soup. We shouldn't be afraid of batman we should be afraid of bat soup man
With a maxed out smoke bomb, you can silently takedown 3 goons and then knockout the last, hop over a railing and multi-takedown the investigating goons. I cleared 7 in a matter of seconds using this method.
In that Dishonered clip did an enemy trip over a set of stairs that it couldn't see in the smoke?
my favourite thing about the arkham series is how they added mechanics on each iteration without reducing the usefulness of the previously used mechanics from the last game. i find the missions in the arkham games are the weakest point. they have an amazing system of cyclic gameplay with a huge open world and great AI , yet most of the missions are "sneak into here to hit this switch"
or "work your way to this room by sneaking through this room and fighting through this room"
the freeze fight in city was a great example of how the missions COULD have been done, there are a huge number of great missions like this, instead we get mostly the same thing repeated hundreds of times through the series, (not saying the general mechanics are bad, in fact the fighting in all of the arkham games are amazing, and all of the sneaking is amazing,) its just that the gameplay mechanics get repeated too many times without much else thrown in.... arkham knight tried to mix things up a fair bit with the batmobile but tbh it seems like more of a fad and i dread when im told "take out the tanks before doing the next bit"
By Granular Failure states you mean when Tom Francis said Failure Spectrum?
Love your stuff, keep it up
in the arrowverse you have a mr freeze a killer frost an icicle and a captain cold. LOL!
Great video and great text. Loved tat i found your channel, my only complaint is the fast pace of ininterupt text, it gets tiring after some time. Gave us some time time to breach between parts with some things like "like these *let some video plays as example*". Otherwise, really great work!
Untitled Goose Game is the best stealth game I have ever played.
I'm a minute in and already heard "these three games". Welp, I guess this is yet another time when Origins gets forgotten.
Random stealth idea. Being hunter & hunted at the same time. There are no regular attacks, only stealth attacks. Stealth attacks are melee distance only & from a 1st person perspective. If 2 people see each other, nothing happens. Turning speed & FoV are same across participants to prevent against cheating. There are gadgets for noisemaker traps, moving decoys, motion detectors (1 ping w/ x second recharge), teleports (w/ x second preparation), invisibility (it's limited time & breaks on running) etc.. Movement has no noise generation unless running, walking over traps or map specific obstacles. There could also be special rules like "teleport (away from enemies/randomly) if you see an enemy for x seconds" that forces you to look away, take action or let the teleport happen?
In this kind of game, the AI would be at a disadvantage, so tutorial AI only? What's your opinion?
"bats aren't a symbol of fear"
*Covid entered the chat*
I won't ever forget the final predator scenario in the story of Arkham City (i won't spoil it though)
I had pulled out nearly all the stops, and pretty quickly wiped out what would've been a very difficult room in mere minutes
And i have the entire game before-hand to thank for the practice i got to execute a predator mission so easily
Also, i know this isn't the topic of the video, but i love the combat of Arkham City, it's kinda simple, but it's very fun
Sometimes i loaded up that one penguin arena and just fought endless goons for hours, they couldn't exactly do shit, though, cause i also mastered the combat system
A man with no gun is a screwed man indeed (Even then, i have alot of options for dealing with it, even out of stealth, my favorite being to break their gun using a combo ability, it's so amusing to break weapons...)
Also-Also
How come you didn't ever mention the fact that you actually can scare the goons if you play your cards right
If you never get caught and mess around with the enemies using alot of sneaky traps, they'll start getting paranoid
One time i had one guy left, and he was freakin' the fuck out
Nothing was ever more gratifying than terrifying the goons, by being *_Batman_*
I actually don't even remember that takedown animations in Deus Ex Mankind Divided stopped time and therefore made you invulnerable because as a stealth player I would avoid as much as possible to takedown NPCs when they're really close one to another. So it is indeed a problem yeah, but it's not a big one and that doesn't make stealth in this game less fun to play. Usually stealth games make you visually vulnerable during takedowns but a lot of them forget to make the player vulnerable from an auditory point of view if you take out a guard really close to another one and that was the case for example in Batman Arkham games.
My favorite stealth series is Splinter Cell. It didn't get a mention: is well or poorly designed?
Deus Ex Invisible war is the other extreme. Don't even bother with the stealth or nothlethal. The traq gun in the first game was interesting, the one here is less useful.
I am a huge fan of the game Payday 2 in which you are heisters robbing things like stores of museums or whatever, and while the game is mostly just a shooter there are stealth missions in which you silently take out guards and try to sneak out with the goods without being caught, however you can get caught and then the place starts swarming with cops and it turns into a regular shooter mission, except you've got no body armor and small weak weapons because you were being stealthy, and the game gives you tools like an item that lets you switch your armor mid mission in order to be prepared for the cops that are coming, except no body does. If you fail the stealth, everyone just restarts the mission and gives it another shot which always felt kinda lame to me because I think having the possibility of having to be prepared for the chance of messing up and having to now deal with being in a shoot out would be more interesting. But the ability to just, reset makes no one do that
I have watched so many of your videos that I have started listening to some of your patreons, like Reys Dad and Daniel Metjes or how ever it's spelled lol. Thanks for supporting this guy to all of you that do. Maybe once I escape my college bills I can do the same lol
Theatricality and deception. Powerful agents to the uninitiated.
14:45 this vid must've been made before Corona
About that bit about dishonored and it’s stealth, I beat a level using rats just rats in dishonored 1 I’d have to track down the old clip since it’s about 2 years old now but I did, I messed up and was in a tough spot (the basement in the golden cat) and I ran, and well, rats everywhere, so I ran to both targets killed them killed a couple guards and ran out all without being killed, amazingly