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@Yo Momma It is important that they have a bark at both ends of the alert period. The same thing can be accomplished through the use of body language, but both barks are useful in limited visibility. You can also use it to indicate if other guards are alert now. Instead of "Must've been the wind" they might sometimes say "Better call it in" and all guards are set to alert for a set period of time. Different closing barks can be used to warn the player if there are varying reactions.
@@senza4591 Wind will blow trees around, make noise and otherwise cause both visible and audible stuff to happen that can be confusing. Especially when it's dark... Is that rustling in the bushes a person, or the wind? (or maybe an animal?)
I once tried to prototype an "inverse stealth" game, where you had an army of guards and were looking for a spy. The guards were easy enough to create, but the prototype fell through when I realized how many things the spy's AI had to keep track of. Known hiding places, not taking paths currently in a guard's vision cone, if they're spotted they'd have to path an escape route that doesn't take them past a half-dozen more guards... it was too much.
What if you approached it with the ideas of a puzzle game? It might help to do things like give guards and other things a radius the spy should avoid. If you can manage it, you could give the spy a "priority level" kind of thing and use that to influence difficulty. As for hiding places yeah that can get complicated as you may have to declare things specifically as hiding spots and use what's discussed in this video to determine if and when they're caught.
By priority levels I mean like how soon after entering this radius should they attempt to escape it. Side note, it almost feels like the way games highlight trails you should take to your objective isn't all too different from this.
Yeah, that's not far from trying to write an AI that can play a given stealth game the way a human player might. There's a reason AI like that is such active research; it's *hard*. You might get farther by giving the spy its own behind-the-scenes cheats (like teleporting him to a good-enough path or being invisible to the guard that last spotted him for a bit) to short-circuit some of that complexity.
The batman games are amazing at this, as the guards react to your actions throughout the stealth sections. One of their guys goes down, they all start looking for you, only a few left, they start going back-to-back so you can't sneak up on them. Only one left, he starts freaking out at every little sound. You can throw a batarang at a nearby wall and he'll shoot in that direction in blind panic. He will also look everywhere and turn often, which makes sneaking up on him more challenging.
Also, shoutout to doing the stealth boss well with Mr. Freeze. The first time I had to fight him was absolutely the most tense and gripping time in all my playthroughs!
@@luigivercotti6410 can't have a discussion about the Arkham games without some jerkwad mentioning the fucking Mr. Freeze fight, get over yourself! It wasn't that good!
I'd love to see a discussion on rewards in stealth games: I feel like it's the only genre out there that really *demands* perfection from the player, there's always some kind of "ghost bonus" for never getting seen... leading to stealth games being in the pantheon of save-scummiest games out there, next to classic isometric RPGs or Xcom. I'd rather see a "one run" bonus, where you make it from the start of the stage to the end of it without dying or restarting at a checkpoint: encouraging players to play through their mistakes and see the run through regardless of what happens.
That's actually a brilliant idea. I always end up save scumming cause I don't really have the willpower not to and have no incentive to not do it. I usually find an excuse like "this was clearly bullshit detection" the first time I do it and then it becomes easier and easier to savescum. Having something to push me to actually do my best in all situations and accept my mistakes would help. Sidenote but I'd like something similar with games like xcom and fire emblem.
The only thing is that games like Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun actually encourage save scumming by warning you if you haven't save within a minute, because it realizes how easy it is to make a plan, think it will follow through, and then underestimate your character's speed, or something happens that you just didn't expect entirely. Sure, some stealth games that make it easier to get back into cover, and games like Hitman 2 actually kind of do reward this because it's a lot easier to predict what will happen, and in master mode you can only save once. It really just matters about what game you're playing, and whether save scumming should be encouraged or discouraged.
@Kevin Griffith _Hitman: Blood Money_ has a notoriety system. Depending on notoriety, the end of mission newspaper will have either an accurate sketch of 47 or one that is completely off. The more detailed the sketch, the harder future missions will be.
@@kakazi2170 I don't remember anything like that in Dishonored, but it's been a while since I played it. I know they had that corruption thing that caused more things like rat swarms to pop up in later missions based on how you played, but they still had the "perfect run" reward that I sank way too many hours into.
Man, I love the art style and animations in Mark of the Ninja so much. Also, I really like the system in Alien Isolation where using the motion tracker creates sound which can alert the Xenomorph, so you’re encouraged to use it sparingly. Tying something that really benefits the player to a stealth system that could get them killed if they over-rely on it creates an interesting balance.
I found that this kind of approach to the design of the motion tracker is actually applied to pretty much every item/mechanic in Isolation: the more you use the flamethrower on the Alien the more resistant to it it will become and more persistant/aggressive it will get; use certain distraction too much and the Alien may get more and more bored with it up to completely ignoring it next time; as helpful as the items and tools in your inventory are, they pose a huge (but varying) danger/problems to their user, and the game does its best to point that out - all done to create and add to tension, stress and anxiety. And I found it working out for the game really, really well. Its really interesting in general, how going against some of the player/user friendlier things mentioned in the video (like guards having their hearing cut in half when they are off-screen, or awareness meter displayed to the player) does not necessarily mean bad design, as it depends on the type of stealth game being made, its core focus and core experience that it is supposed to provide. Having said that, maybe not related, but Isolation really would've benefitted from a more in-depth, reactive and just plain better AI for humans. They worked fine, and on points great, but they can be comical, and unlike the Joes, not in a good way.
I'm still waiting for a stealth game where your flashlight is the kind you have to loudly wind up to recharge. It's been staring game designers in the face ever since those hit the market.
Pocket Fluff Productions while an interesting idea, it seems more like a little annoyance to keep track of, isn't it? Tho, I guess depends on the game. If it's a stealth-horror/stealth survival-horror, where it most likely would be designed in a way that will get you killed, that'd be not ideal, but in other stealth games, with more forgiving enemies when it comes to spotting and becoming aware of you, that could work nicely.
I would love to see a stealth game where guards get higher awareness whenever they almost spot the player. Like when that guard saw something suspicious, it would take a better look at the surrounding and would react faster if something occured again. However, in most games, guards merely take a quick look at the place where they spoted something and return to idling around like nothing happened. So some kind of rising alert level for guards would be cool. From reducing the time they need to spot the player to actually leaving their idle status permanently and actively searching for something until they find some explanation (like a cat or something, which could actually be used as an distraction to lower the alert level).
Most stealth games right now have such a system, although rudimentary. When the player is spotted and hides again or a body is found, the guards will stay more alert and aggressive even after they return to their routine. It's often limited by the fact that those guards can't alert others to your presence, so you get a vigilant guard while the others stay the same.
10:53 reasons like this is _exactly_ why i love this channel so much. Any lesser "designer" or "game critic" would just point at say the Alien Isolation example and out-right call it bad with literally no context and having a lack of understanding of _why_ it is the way it is in that game just because they don't like it. You, Mark Brown, on the other hand, acknowledge all the same ways the same systems can be implemented but achieve totally different outcomes, as well as the different ways to use the same tools. Because, you know, they're *tools.* I mean hey, it's _literally_ in the name of the channel. Game Maker's *Toolkit.* :D
"What if there was a first person game where you trying to achieve something other than genocide? And thus was borne the 'Stealth-em-up'." - Yahtzee, circa 2011
Mgsv does something cool: the cutscenes use this really exaggerated lens flare, and in game this lens flare effect is used whenever a guard search light is about to shine on your position
That Other Guy the sight in sound in metal gear whether it’s the originals such as the first three games or mgsv the sight and sound are harder to perceive different guards have different limitations some guards can see 20 feet away in the dark and some can’t see 5 feet in front of them on a clear day and some can’t hear a soldier full sprinting straight at him and some can hear a pin drop 10 feet away that’s why these games stealth is a lot harder than other stealth game’s such as assassins creed or splinter cell hideo kojima did amazing on those games to make an relatively accurate stealth mechanics in a series full of psychics genetically altered super soldiers and nanomachines son
@@HenryTownsmyth You should try it yourself. You can play like that if you completely learned how AI reacts and percieve the player. And I would definitely say it's AI is one of the most detailed AI I've ever seen. If you try that don't knowing how they act, you'll definitely be spotted and die soon.
I'm glad you mentioned the _Sly Cooper_ series, because that's exactly what I was thinking of when you mentioned representing sight cones in 3D. It's a system that fits the game very well, too. The fantasy offered by playing as Sly Cooper isn't being constantly on the edge of your seat, evaluating and guessing whether you can be seen; it's about being a master thief who's so experienced that those things come as second nature.
Despite all these mechanics, I've always wanted to play a stealth game where the guards are as human as possible. For example, we are aware of someone pretty instantaneously; it's not like we need time to be aware of a person after we've seen them. Another thing some games do is returning the guard to a calm state after they've been slightly alerted. A real life person would stay on edge for the rest of the encounter. I think a stealth game like this would be unreasonably hard, but I've always wanted to try
Stealth games are by far my favourite. So excited for this series! I hope you talk in a future video about NPCs having the hive mind-like ability to know your exact position when only one of them has spotted you. It's one of the things that break games the most for me.
"Mark of the ninja" is a heavily underrated game. I played it few years back and thoroughly enjoyed it. The developer is right. The game was not just about bypassing the guards but also about building brilliant death traps.
I love seeing Mark of the Ninja being taken into consideration and being evaluated against these classics! My favorite game and of course the best stealth game I've played! Keep up the good work! I love seeing you tackle these complex but awesome subjects in an understandable and enjoyable manner!
Stealth Games just offer a feeling like no other. Getting through an entire level or game without a single enemy ever knowing you existed is more thrilling than most would think.
I just played it this year, and I kicked myself for not playing it sooner. Such an elegant and clever game. I love the feeling of using each character's tools to pick apart a complicated level.
I just finised it for the second time on hardcore difficulty. Honestly, one of the best games i ever played (and I do it for a living, so a played a lot). Also, i tried an early version of Desperados III: it is even better than Shadow Tactics. Im so glad Mimimi is the one studio developing it.
i absolutely adore stealth games. this is my number one favourite genre mainly because i feel like stealth games are puzzle games disguised as actions games. once you understand the puzzle, you then become really good at it whether or not your character "leveled" up or you ended up with good weapons. i loved splinter cell blacklist and got really good at it that i exclusively play in the hardest setting and with as low-powered weapons as possible because i'm more interested in the puzzle feel of the set-pieces rather than the action.
The problem with a lot of military stealth games, and even FPS games, is that during the mission, the player is responding to their environment and situation for the very first time. But in most military ops, by the time soldiers put their boots on the ground, they've memorized the layout of each building, know exactly how many people are expected to be there and where they'll be, memorized the routines of the guards and staff, know everything about any security systems, and have even practiced a dry run several times on a mock set that looks like the op. So I'd LOVE to see a hyper-realistic stealth game where gunfire alerts just about every guard in the area and where the guards can see exactly what you see (Like, it doesn't make sense that I can see Sam Fisher hiding in the dark but they can't). And have it be so realistic that pretty much the only way to pass the mission is to plan it well. So the game becomes about forming the best plan and then executing it well.
Try *Payday 2*, altough it's full of DLCs, the base game and free DLCs lets you pre-plan each heist: see map, place some useful things (body bags, medkits) and you can even draw on the map for other players to see. I recommend playing it with at least one friend.
Classic Hitman games dude. Though they're silly in essence, they work precisely like a trained assassin receiving info on a job. Especially in blood money, you can request information about the target's habits, the establishment's weaknesses, you can examine the skeleton of the level before going in, and so on. Splinter Cell is a bit different, yeah. But I never had any trouble with it. My extreme caution as a child made me stalk the shadows and abuse sticky cams so much that I was basically never caught. Except in Kalinatek, because fuck the first big hallway where they turn on the lights. I remember getting a heart attack *very* clearly there. I ran into a mine face first thinking they were gonna get me.
They aren't stealth games, but older Rainbow Six games have a pre-mission planning phase where you get most of the layout and create a route for your teams to follow. Good luck getting anyone but hardcore fans to care about doing that though.
Bruh, you highly overestimate the military. That sort of intelligence is rare. The military doesn't go in raw, it generally has a baseline, but not the full blown schematic. And unless its a super important op, you won't typically do dry-runs - as constructing the dry-run costs a good chunk of money. You may go over it in a terrain model, or maybe run a few TDG's (tactical decision games), but a full on dry run is rare.
Having recently started playing Monaco (the indie title), I must admit Mark nailed the theme that he chose. Will keep on watching this series as it gets released!
Hi Mark! I just watned to express my gratitude towards your content, especially in these unusual times. I work for IGN Hungary as a reviwever and writer, and your well-explained ideas has helped me for years to express my thought about certain genres or games. Thank you and I wish you the best of luck!
A game mechanic I loved was the cooperative mode from SC:CT where, you could use voice chat in game but if you made too much noise, the guards could hear you. You could use this to lure them into a trap but it also made communication more difficult. I wish we could see a similar feature in a game like The Division.
You can find great use of visible perception cones in the "Commandos" series. For some reason not many people talk about them, but they were absolutely amazing games.
So happy you decided to split this up into several episodes. This would have been a behemoth or severely lacking some in-depth analysis had it been just one part.
I liked how *Mark of the Ninja* had the condition of scared shitless, in addition to idle, suspicious and in pursuit. I'd love more 3D stealth games explore guards with different personalities and fear/anxiety levels, when if you're good enough they might say "Fork it, I'm not paid enough for this." Maybe some cool traits from psychological to supernatural to throw you out of the loop sometimes. Imagine hiding from a vampire, that can't see you, only hear and is forced to avoid holy places, running water and can be distracted by having forced to count scattered seeds. Or a suspicious guard not calming down, once they've seen som treasures missing, or a supersticious guard thinking the place is haunted after you prank them, or magical gumshoe being able to follow your steps, but only in the same exact order (so you can always make path longer), or the guard that is watching cameras in real time, so you have a chance be not seen by them, at the cost of having harder time later, etc.
Considering how many games slap on stealth mechanics to spice the game up, mess up all the mechanics, and instead just ruins the experience for one level, making this miniseries is a genius idea :D (Speaking of, having illustrative examples of games that do the exact opposite of a stealth "best practice" to highlight just why the mechanics work when used properly could be a nice educational touch - my main pet peeve is when a game doesn't give you any feedback on whether you're hidden or not, so you need to trial-and-error through an invisible hedge maze to find the path the designers want you to take)
awesome new series! One thing always bother me about stealth game is when you have practically invisible AI companion. Yes, it will be super annoying to have your companion get caught by the enemies but making 'em walk or bump around the enemies like they are invisible always break the immersion for me, especially on serious, grounded games like The Last of Us or Ghost Recon
In CounterSpy, when you enter a new area in sight of guards, you get a couple of seconds to get hidden before they officially see you. I feel like that's a work-around for how the procedural level maps are made, but at least it gives you a chance, even if it doesn't work again once you're in that area.
Great video and very informative - as ever! The last stealth game i finished was *A Plague Tale* , which wasn't mentioned/seen in this video. The detection mechanics in this one worked quite well I thought. There were some tricky parts but it never felt unfair or impossible, thanks to some of the tools you talked about in this video.
I thought A Plague Tale was really well balanced in that regard. You had to think about which tools to use to solve each navigation puzzle, so it was tense and satisfying, but it wasn't tough enough that failure started to grate against the narrative flow.
Excellent job Mark. Right before I saw the notification for this video I was feeling very drained having been couped up for so long and not able to enjoy my usual routine which is crucial to my productivity. I was about to give up for the day but getting to see a new video from you gave me the boost I needed to keep working. And I was so glad to see you talk more extensively about Mark of the Ninja and Thief. Both are game I never would have played without your discussion of them and they are phenomenal for both the reasons you mentioned; Mark's perfect knowledge lets me pull off ridiculous trap that let me be a master assassin, but the first time I played Thief I could feel my heart pounding from fear that I was going to be spotted.
Thanks for the amazing job, Mark! You're by far my favorite game design content creator and hope you continue this works for many years! Regarding the video topic, I would like to see other senses in stealth, like smell.
Aside from the fact that your videos are always gold, I'm super hyped that you've chosen the stealth genre for your next mini-series. It's one that I very much either love or hate, and i hope that understanding why gives me new tools for discussion, the same way most of your insights do.
This could not have come at a better time for me, I’m making a stealth game for my thesis project for my bachelor’s degree and this series is gonna be my bible for this last month of working from home!!
I remember so much the first time I played MGSV Ground Zeroes, I was inmensely tense when carrying Paz because of the sounds she made, like "Shut up they're gonna hear you!" (I was literally screaming that to the screen), but that tension was soooo much fun!!!
Brilliant stuff, as always. I just started replaying Thief: Deadly Shadows, so this video was perfectly timed, especially the quote from the original Thief's Lead Programmer. It sums up why I love that series, and the stealth genre as a whole. Can't wait for the next video in the series.
I don't know how many people have played Monaco, but it's one of my favorite games of all time, VERY simplistic yet SO effective on the stealth gameplay
Hello! Your videos are incredible. I think an interesting video could be how games balance, not just through mechanical skill, memory, and strategy. But around Fear. Take for example the mechanics of Alien isolation, which is a fairly straightforward stealth puzzle game, which then becomes incredibly difficult because you can't keep a clear head. As said by Ras al Ghul in Batman Begins. "Feel terror cloud your senses" Another example of this could be the stress induced difficulty of the lockpicking at the end of the water monster corridor in Amnesia: The dark descent. Or anything you do while getting chased by the regenerator in dead space.
Shadow Tactics is the best stealth game I have ever played so I'm glad you included it. Minmi Games did an absolutely phenomenal job in not only modernizing the "commandos" formula, but also improving upon it.
I'd love to see a mini-part about how stealth interacts with combat, and how the different ways and numbers of how to deal with enemies changes the feel. Like, how do games like MGS (which have multiple different ways to dispatch enemies), compare to games with only one/one main method of attack (Mark of the Ninja), or none at all (survival horror)? Or how most games let you kill guards, but others don't?
Hmmm, "none at all" doesn't necessarily mean "survival horror" tho. Actually, survival horror games usually allow you to kill/dispatch your enemies and engage in combat (Look Resident Evil games apart from 4-5-6, those are action-horror; *System Shock 2, Alien:Isolation etc), however, even in a shooting-focused survival horror, it is always quite risky to do so, and is not always a viable solution. In traditional survival horror games ammo is always limited, you are vulnerable and the threats are tough or deal alot of damage, if not both, but you're usually not forced to fight, as you may be able to run away, making engaging in combat a tactical decision. In a game like Alien: Isolation engaging in combat can be lethal and quite often, even with a group of survivors, but you can use that to your advantage and in general you have a number of different ways to kill/dispatch low tier threats, and survive an encounter/fend off the MVP that is the Alien. Horror games that have no means or ways to engage or kill the threats are games like Amnesia, Layers of Fear, Outlast etc and I imagine you were referring to exactly those games, specifically Amnesia and Outlast, as they are stealth focused. Many horror game enthusiasts don't consider those as survival horror, rather as a beast of a somewhat different breed, that still has no proper definition/name, I definitely couldn't find it. Some people call those simply "horror games" buuut that's just bad as it is already taken and stands for, well, horror games but of every kind/sub-genre etc (action-horror, survival-horror and so on). Some say they should be called as "stealth-horror", which is better, probably best option, but still I think there are some problems with it. I even read some people refering to those games as "modern horror" which is probably even worse than just calling them horror games, so yeah.
@@ЯношБан Fair enough. I just like the idea of a stealth game where you can't just "remove" the guards. I know that you don't have to allow killing in order to "remove" guards, you can incapacitate them in other ways, but still.
@@mayatunes I get it, I also like that idea, I mean, the more diverse the genre the better in general. I just wanted to point out that if people talk "survival horror" and mean by that games like Amnesia, Outlast, Layers of Fear, or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, Dead Space, RE5 and etc, that may not be really correct.
My favorite fun stealth section is that of UnMetal, where you even get to choose the type of guards (not knowing what it will mean exactly) by telling your story in an interrogation and then playing it out in hindsight. This game deserves a huge mention!
This reminds me of an amusing post I saw on Facebook months ago. One person is talking about how there are two ways to play stealth: no-one sees you, or leave no-one alive to see you. The second person remarks: so stealth, and Russian stealth.
The Siren games have an interesting solution for view cones as well. Letting you literally switch your view to see what the enemies are seeing from their perspective, as if switching channels on a tv. As a horror stealth game, this has the added benefit of giving you that classic view from the monster's eye that is used in so many horror movies. It's also a good way to scout around without having to risk getting spotted. And when you do decide to get a move on, you lose the enemy perspective, have no radar screen for overview, and will have to trust that the enemy is still where you last saw them. Adding a feeling of tension that perfectly elevates stealth game tropes into a full on horror experience. Siren on the PS3 somewhat alleviated this by letting you split the screen, so one half is your own view, the other half shows what your 'sight jacked' enemy is seeing, but only for one enemy at a time.
My favourite thing in stealth games is all the actions that a player can take that aren't the direct route or simply shooting enemies and play up the particular stealth fantasy the game's portraying. For example in the Batman Arkham games you can get a gadget that remotely disables enemy guns. Depending on the game, this gadget either has a long cooldown between uses or a fixed number of uses per encounter. Nothing is quite as satisfying as getting the guards super-scared of Batman, disabling the remaining guns and then intentionally revealing myself and watching the horror on the guards faces as they realise their guns, their only strength against the Batman, is worthless and then I take them out. I don't even run after them, I walk because Batman's that badass and the enemy's that screwed. While strong, this strategy has some downsides - The long cooldown/limited uses and guards who realise their guns don't work with either switch to melee combat or run off to get a new gun from a supply crate. This means the player has to plan their attack and move swiftly like the Batman would to make the most of the temporary advantage.
This is easily one of the best game Dev yt channels. Keep up the great content! P. S. : I'm trying to learn game development in unity, could you please suggest me some channels or some series?
Impeccable timing on this one! I am currently learning about game design because I want to create a stealth game myself and seeing my favorite Game Design channel upload a mini series about just that made my day! Thank you for your continued efforts to make Game Design techniques more well-known to the public and more accessible!
@@rossanderson4156 If they get a click-through rate of even 0.001%, that's still a huge number of people directly accessing WHO's information. I for one did. And then even when people don't click it, it still generates public awareness about the WHO being the most trusted source on the matter.
6:08 thats what i like about the whalers in Dishonored: they are completly silent and never spoeak one word when they are searching, making them feel like they are truly assasins who know what they are dealing with unlike you common guard.
I wonder if you could make a hybrid of these types. One where you start out hiding from the monsters in the shadow, then, as you progress, become the monster in the shadows. I guess Arkane's Prey gets to this somewhat; the player starts out afriad of every small object, but, as the game progresses, you gain the same powers as the Typhon enemy and can pull the same stuff off.
Interesting how the camera really empowers the player characters, and how few stealth games opt for first-person (Thief stands out to me). It's kinda ridiculous you can see both your player crouch behind cover, and exactly totally everything behind that cover, yet often in the player characters shoes all that information wouldn't come from their actual perception. It's a sort of player-omniscience (perhaps that would be an interesting topic to cover?)
Zelda: Breath of the Wild did a good job with their fuzzy detection. Different enemies have different levels of awareness based on their danger level which is the best way to fight them. Some Lynel can see from really far away but the best way to fight them is through mounting and attacking them since it's a 1 v 1 encounter, but are otherwise avoidable. And on the other end less aware bokoblins and such you can sneak attack to kill, but will call for reinforcements if they spot you since you typically fight them in encampments.
I can think of a situation where you might want to do extra raycasts in addition to parts of the player's body: Checking for light visibility. If you're just checking the player, then standing in a shadow with a lit area behind would show them as hidden when they really shouldn't be. Add a few extra points around the player's hitbox that rays would normally go through and continue them if they don't hit anything between the guard and target point and sample the light from where they eventually do hit and use the contrast between there and the player to influence the visibility calculations.
I love stealth games! I've played a lot, and my favorites are the ones that factor in believable tactics. Splintercell: Blacklist was the first stealth game that gave me bonus points for leaving enemies completely untouched, which I thought was very cool. Even one dead or unconscious body should be enough to put an entire compound on lock-down, but most game guards just chalk it all up to "imagination".
The only thing in stealth games that doesnt make sense is how if one person sees you, everyone in the compound and their deceased grandma knows where you are and mission failed
Not in every stealth game, in MGS V the guards scream "Enemy/Intruder spotted" after he spotted you to alert the other guards. A bad example of this is Watch Dogs 2 though.
Now I want a *Reverse Batman game* . Where we play as criminals, and being hunted by Batman. Imagine, playing as a 4 people squad to rob a museum and suddenly, one of your friends is gone. Batman chasing you down from the shadows, while you try to escape.
“I hope you’re all doing OK in the midst of this awful coronavirus pandemic. It’s such a scary situation, so please stay safe”. You too, Mark. You too.
I love your videos so much. Honestly, I don't even play a ton of videogames, but they're structured so well that it's hard not to watch. They do such a great job of holding your attention and explaining new concepts. I honestly want to show them to my Communications professor just so we can appreciate how well written your scripts are. The visual aids are fantastic. Everything is organized into a logical procession. Thanks for having a great channel.
So few youtubers or even content creators give me such an understanding of their subject matter. I totally understand that I’m no master or even student of game design, but I do feel like I have a vocabulary to describe why I don’t like some games or why. I love Sly Cooper, but not as a stealth game. I didn’t understand why until this video. Thanks again GMTK. (I also understand that just watching these videos does not give me license to be an armchair game designer on forums)
This is how I do it in my games, I use larger sphere collider(set as trigger) to define range of sight then I create empty Game Object and make it child of enemy model. Now when player is within that collider then I calculate angle between forward direction and direction from player to enemy and if this angle is less than max angle(which is 45 or 60) then player is in sight and it's time to chase
Talking about the alert state in guards, in Thief: The Dark Project, if the guards are idly walking, you can knock them out in one hit using your blackjack. However, if they are on alert (if they hear you, even if they haven't spotted your exact location,) you will be unable to knock them out. Sure, you could still try to kill them with your sword, but, if you play on harder difficulties, you will get an instant Game Over if you kill anyone. Awesome video!
"What game guards see and hear" A rock, another rock, a few more rocks. All from the same place. Then a suppressed shot and hurried footsteps, a noisy roll. The thump of a body, more shots, some kind of flashbang grenade Game guards are stupid
@Richard Foran Would you really want to play a stealth game where, if you were spotted once, the guards entered an alert state that lasted for hours of time? That one dead body you didn't quite hide well enough would send the entire base into full alert for the rest of the session? You do know there's a difference between the fantasy of being a hidden ghost who no one knows is there and the reality? For one thing the latter requires a ton more push ups.
Matt Morehouse some people would, yes. I think for most stealth games it would be nice to have a difficulty setting like that where it’s almost realistic.
@@adams13245 yes I would actually. Same reason people like driving sims or shooters like ARMA. Some people like doing something that's not realistically attainable in real life as realistically as possible in a game.
So glad Blades of the Shogun was mentioned. It's free on Xbox Game Pass to anyone interested and that's where I picked it up first. I was completely enraptured by the game and how intuitive it's stealth mechanics work. I'd love to see more of it in this series.
Hey! Google has set the default video quality on UA-cam to be standard definition (480p) for the duration of the coronavirus pandemic, to help reduce internet traffic. If you'd prefer to watch the video in high definition (1080p), please click / tap the cog and change the video quality from there.
How is this comment 10 hours ago?
@@krenze1164 Scheduled post. You can make a video private until a certain time.
Jokes on you! I watch everything in 144p.
@@Mustafa-isthere Ah yes, A man of true quality
Laughs in 144p
dont forget about the "must've been the wind" thing, every stealth game needs that
You may like this (even if its german) ua-cam.com/video/VWKcqPQf_ZI/v-deo.html
Stealth Games do need an audbile way to tell the player "I am done searching and will now go back to a lesser state"
@Yo Momma
It is important that they have a bark at both ends of the alert period. The same thing can be accomplished through the use of body language, but both barks are useful in limited visibility.
You can also use it to indicate if other guards are alert now. Instead of "Must've been the wind" they might sometimes say "Better call it in" and all guards are set to alert for a set period of time. Different closing barks can be used to warn the player if there are varying reactions.
Yes, indeed, it was the _wind_ that you saw.
@@senza4591 Wind will blow trees around, make noise and otherwise cause both visible and audible stuff to happen that can be confusing. Especially when it's dark...
Is that rustling in the bushes a person, or the wind?
(or maybe an animal?)
I once tried to prototype an "inverse stealth" game, where you had an army of guards and were looking for a spy. The guards were easy enough to create, but the prototype fell through when I realized how many things the spy's AI had to keep track of. Known hiding places, not taking paths currently in a guard's vision cone, if they're spotted they'd have to path an escape route that doesn't take them past a half-dozen more guards... it was too much.
You could make it an asymmetrical game, where one player is the spy vs the mastermind player who hires guards to defend things
What if you approached it with the ideas of a puzzle game? It might help to do things like give guards and other things a radius the spy should avoid. If you can manage it, you could give the spy a "priority level" kind of thing and use that to influence difficulty. As for hiding places yeah that can get complicated as you may have to declare things specifically as hiding spots and use what's discussed in this video to determine if and when they're caught.
By priority levels I mean like how soon after entering this radius should they attempt to escape it. Side note, it almost feels like the way games highlight trails you should take to your objective isn't all too different from this.
you can just make it a multiplayer.
Yeah, that's not far from trying to write an AI that can play a given stealth game the way a human player might. There's a reason AI like that is such active research; it's *hard*.
You might get farther by giving the spy its own behind-the-scenes cheats (like teleporting him to a good-enough path or being invisible to the guard that last spotted him for a bit) to short-circuit some of that complexity.
seeing "guards" as a video game abstraction got really weird once I became a security guard for a living
Do you pace up and down the same hallway all night, and shrug off suspicious sounds as rats / the wind?
Have you ever shouted to a felon "Stop, criminal scum! You are in violation of the law!" That would be gold.
Do you stand totally stationary with your back to an open doorway?
Be sure to get your viewcone checked every two weeks!
@@GMTK That's what I did as a guard, oh god, what have I become?
The batman games are amazing at this, as the guards react to your actions throughout the stealth sections. One of their guys goes down, they all start looking for you, only a few left, they start going back-to-back so you can't sneak up on them. Only one left, he starts freaking out at every little sound. You can throw a batarang at a nearby wall and he'll shoot in that direction in blind panic. He will also look everywhere and turn often, which makes sneaking up on him more challenging.
Also, shoutout to doing the stealth boss well with Mr. Freeze. The first time I had to fight him was absolutely the most tense and gripping time in all my playthroughs!
@@luigivercotti6410 can't have a discussion about the Arkham games without some jerkwad mentioning the fucking Mr. Freeze fight, get over yourself! It wasn't that good!
@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts don't be a dick.
@@Ten_Thousand_Locusts It was, though. Almost everyone agrees that it is brilliant.
@@thebombspayloadisexposed literally wasn't
I'd love to see a discussion on rewards in stealth games: I feel like it's the only genre out there that really *demands* perfection from the player, there's always some kind of "ghost bonus" for never getting seen... leading to stealth games being in the pantheon of save-scummiest games out there, next to classic isometric RPGs or Xcom. I'd rather see a "one run" bonus, where you make it from the start of the stage to the end of it without dying or restarting at a checkpoint: encouraging players to play through their mistakes and see the run through regardless of what happens.
That's actually a brilliant idea. I always end up save scumming cause I don't really have the willpower not to and have no incentive to not do it. I usually find an excuse like "this was clearly bullshit detection" the first time I do it and then it becomes easier and easier to savescum.
Having something to push me to actually do my best in all situations and accept my mistakes would help.
Sidenote but I'd like something similar with games like xcom and fire emblem.
The only thing is that games like Shadow Tactics: Blades of the Shogun actually encourage save scumming by warning you if you haven't save within a minute, because it realizes how easy it is to make a plan, think it will follow through, and then underestimate your character's speed, or something happens that you just didn't expect entirely. Sure, some stealth games that make it easier to get back into cover, and games like Hitman 2 actually kind of do reward this because it's a lot easier to predict what will happen, and in master mode you can only save once. It really just matters about what game you're playing, and whether save scumming should be encouraged or discouraged.
@Kevin Griffith
_Hitman: Blood Money_ has a notoriety system.
Depending on notoriety, the end of mission newspaper will have either an accurate sketch of 47 or one that is completely off. The more detailed the sketch, the harder future missions will be.
Dishonored has something like that
@@kakazi2170 I don't remember anything like that in Dishonored, but it's been a while since I played it. I know they had that corruption thing that caused more things like rat swarms to pop up in later missions based on how you played, but they still had the "perfect run" reward that I sank way too many hours into.
0:18 I feel like that line should have been "These are games about spies, assassins and geese."
The only real difference between Untitled Goose Game and a Hitman game is that I'm actually good at Untitled Goose Game.
Arisen Gaming I’ll give you the secret to the new Hitman games. P R O P A N E F L A S K
Everybody gangsta until the bush starts blastin
"What was that just now!? I must be seeing things..."
“Wind’s howling”
Everybody gangsta until the trees starts shouting and moving towards you with guns
Bush: "So anyway I started blasting"
bush did 911
I can tell I'm going to enjoy this mini-series immensely.
Man, I love the art style and animations in Mark of the Ninja so much.
Also, I really like the system in Alien Isolation where using the motion tracker creates sound which can alert the Xenomorph, so you’re encouraged to use it sparingly. Tying something that really benefits the player to a stealth system that could get them killed if they over-rely on it creates an interesting balance.
I found that this kind of approach to the design of the motion tracker is actually applied to pretty much every item/mechanic in Isolation: the more you use the flamethrower on the Alien the more resistant to it it will become and more persistant/aggressive it will get; use certain distraction too much and the Alien may get more and more bored with it up to completely ignoring it next time; as helpful as the items and tools in your inventory are, they pose a huge (but varying) danger/problems to their user, and the game does its best to point that out - all done to create and add to tension, stress and anxiety. And I found it working out for the game really, really well.
Its really interesting in general, how going against some of the player/user friendlier things mentioned in the video (like guards having their hearing cut in half when they are off-screen, or awareness meter displayed to the player) does not necessarily mean bad design, as it depends on the type of stealth game being made, its core focus and core experience that it is supposed to provide. Having said that, maybe not related, but Isolation really would've benefitted from a more in-depth, reactive and just plain better AI for humans. They worked fine, and on points great, but they can be comical, and unlike the Joes, not in a good way.
I'm still waiting for a stealth game where your flashlight is the kind you have to loudly wind up to recharge. It's been staring game designers in the face ever since those hit the market.
That's why I love that game
Pocket Fluff Productions while an interesting idea, it seems more like a little annoyance to keep track of, isn't it? Tho, I guess depends on the game. If it's a stealth-horror/stealth survival-horror, where it most likely would be designed in a way that will get you killed, that'd be not ideal, but in other stealth games, with more forgiving enemies when it comes to spotting and becoming aware of you, that could work nicely.
I would love to see a stealth game where guards get higher awareness whenever they almost spot the player. Like when that guard saw something suspicious, it would take a better look at the surrounding and would react faster if something occured again. However, in most games, guards merely take a quick look at the place where they spoted something and return to idling around like nothing happened.
So some kind of rising alert level for guards would be cool. From reducing the time they need to spot the player to actually leaving their idle status permanently and actively searching for something until they find some explanation (like a cat or something, which could actually be used as an distraction to lower the alert level).
Chaos theory
@@commanderleo yes! mark of the ninja is super fun and i totally recommend OP to try playing it.
"Deploying decoy cat."
Most stealth games right now have such a system, although rudimentary. When the player is spotted and hides again or a body is found, the guards will stay more alert and aggressive even after they return to their routine.
It's often limited by the fact that those guards can't alert others to your presence, so you get a vigilant guard while the others stay the same.
In styx shards of darkness the guards react that way
*Loud screaming and clashing of steel next to dead comrades*
“What was that???”
*crouches*
“Must’ve been my imagination.”
"Is someone there?"
"Must be my imagination."
Dishonored?
"Probably just the wind."
@@foreignbag8861 skyrim probably
When that bit of audio is so overused you can't tell which game it came from LOL I'm guessing skyrim though?
Mgs4
10:53 reasons like this is _exactly_ why i love this channel so much. Any lesser "designer" or "game critic" would just point at say the Alien Isolation example and out-right call it bad with literally no context and having a lack of understanding of _why_ it is the way it is in that game just because they don't like it. You, Mark Brown, on the other hand, acknowledge all the same ways the same systems can be implemented but achieve totally different outcomes, as well as the different ways to use the same tools. Because, you know, they're *tools.* I mean hey, it's _literally_ in the name of the channel. Game Maker's *Toolkit.* :D
"What if there was a first person game where you trying to achieve something other than genocide? And thus was borne the 'Stealth-em-up'."
- Yahtzee, circa 2011
Do you remember which video that was? I vaguely recall that line.
@@taintedmyth0s636 It's his Thief: The Dark Project review.
He's entertaining in short bursts, but he's just too arrogant and annoying for me to give this a like lol
There's still a lot of murder going on though.
@@MorrisseyMuse I think that's on purpose though. It's a character after all.
That Splinter Cell Double Agent main menu theme got me deep in the feels
Mgsv does something cool: the cutscenes use this really exaggerated lens flare, and in game this lens flare effect is used whenever a guard search light is about to shine on your position
That Other Guy the sight in sound in metal gear whether it’s the originals such as the first three games or mgsv the sight and sound are harder to perceive different guards have different limitations some guards can see 20 feet away in the dark and some can’t see 5 feet in front of them on a clear day and some can’t hear a soldier full sprinting straight at him and some can hear a pin drop 10 feet away that’s why these games stealth is a lot harder than other stealth game’s such as assassins creed or splinter cell hideo kojima did amazing on those games to make an relatively accurate stealth mechanics in a series full of psychics genetically altered super soldiers and nanomachines son
MGSV is trash for stealth. As seen in the beginning of the video. Broad daylight and the guart can't see few meters away.
@@HenryTownsmyth You should try it yourself. You can play like that if you completely learned how AI reacts and percieve the player. And I would definitely say it's AI is one of the most detailed AI I've ever seen. If you try that don't knowing how they act, you'll definitely be spotted and die soon.
@@HenryTownsmyth how can you call a game trash from only 30 secs of gameplay?
@@ludensarahan If you're crawling a guard can't even enter the reflex mode until you're 12 meters away. Like honestly they do be blind.
one of my favorite gaming genres getting a mini-series by GMK!!!!! IS THIS A DREAM ???!!!
game maker's kit
No this is
Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaake eaaaaaaaater
I'm glad you mentioned the _Sly Cooper_ series, because that's exactly what I was thinking of when you mentioned representing sight cones in 3D.
It's a system that fits the game very well, too. The fantasy offered by playing as Sly Cooper isn't being constantly on the edge of your seat, evaluating and guessing whether you can be seen; it's about being a master thief who's so experienced that those things come as second nature.
Despite all these mechanics, I've always wanted to play a stealth game where the guards are as human as possible. For example, we are aware of someone pretty instantaneously; it's not like we need time to be aware of a person after we've seen them. Another thing some games do is returning the guard to a calm state after they've been slightly alerted. A real life person would stay on edge for the rest of the encounter. I think a stealth game like this would be unreasonably hard, but I've always wanted to try
Always appreciate these in depth dives onto specific genres.
I'm really digging it.
Stealth games are by far my favourite. So excited for this series!
I hope you talk in a future video about NPCs having the hive mind-like ability to know your exact position when only one of them has spotted you. It's one of the things that break games the most for me.
"This is a short GMTK miniseries about how stealth-games work." I'm all in my man!! Already hyped!
"Mark of the ninja" is a heavily underrated game. I played it few years back and thoroughly enjoyed it. The developer is right. The game was not just about bypassing the guards but also about building brilliant death traps.
I love seeing Mark of the Ninja being taken into consideration and being evaluated against these classics! My favorite game and of course the best stealth game I've played!
Keep up the good work! I love seeing you tackle these complex but awesome subjects in an understandable and enjoyable manner!
Stealth Games just offer a feeling like no other. Getting through an entire level or game without a single enemy ever knowing you existed is more thrilling than most would think.
@Richard Foran wtf is this shit? By your word all fps should be perma death......just boost the tech of the spy, strong digi camo
Yeah, that's nothing compared to getting through the level alerting EVERYONE, and still slipping by unnoticed. Ghosting is so last century...
@@СлоГорький Nice bait
Shoutout to Shadow Tactics! I always feel like I'm the only one who ever played that game, even though it's so good!
I just played it this year, and I kicked myself for not playing it sooner. Such an elegant and clever game. I love the feeling of using each character's tools to pick apart a complicated level.
The game must've had no advertising at all. It is an amazing experience playing Shadow Tactics, yet such few people played it
If you liked Shadow Tactics and if you haven't already, please try the commando series, the 2 did not age a bit
@@luluckas1980 Yeah, they just released the HD remaster. You can enter most of the buildings, it's really deep
I just finised it for the second time on hardcore difficulty. Honestly, one of the best games i ever played (and I do it for a living, so a played a lot). Also, i tried an early version of Desperados III: it is even better than Shadow Tactics. Im so glad Mimimi is the one studio developing it.
love the way you constantly change up the visual design of your episodes to mimic the UI of the game series you talk about!!! such a neat touch
As stealth games are one of my favorite genres, I’m looking forward to this
But stay out of the cone
Yeah, and also don't make too much noise
i absolutely adore stealth games. this is my number one favourite genre
mainly because i feel like stealth games are puzzle games disguised as actions games.
once you understand the puzzle, you then become really good at it whether or not your character "leveled" up or you ended up with good weapons.
i loved splinter cell blacklist and got really good at it that i exclusively play in the hardest setting and with as low-powered weapons as possible because i'm more interested in the puzzle feel of the set-pieces rather than the action.
The problem with a lot of military stealth games, and even FPS games, is that during the mission, the player is responding to their environment and situation for the very first time. But in most military ops, by the time soldiers put their boots on the ground, they've memorized the layout of each building, know exactly how many people are expected to be there and where they'll be, memorized the routines of the guards and staff, know everything about any security systems, and have even practiced a dry run several times on a mock set that looks like the op.
So I'd LOVE to see a hyper-realistic stealth game where gunfire alerts just about every guard in the area and where the guards can see exactly what you see (Like, it doesn't make sense that I can see Sam Fisher hiding in the dark but they can't). And have it be so realistic that pretty much the only way to pass the mission is to plan it well. So the game becomes about forming the best plan and then executing it well.
Try *Payday 2*, altough it's full of DLCs, the base game and free DLCs lets you pre-plan each heist: see map, place some useful things (body bags, medkits) and you can even draw on the map for other players to see. I recommend playing it with at least one friend.
Classic Hitman games dude. Though they're silly in essence, they work precisely like a trained assassin receiving info on a job. Especially in blood money, you can request information about the target's habits, the establishment's weaknesses, you can examine the skeleton of the level before going in, and so on. Splinter Cell is a bit different, yeah. But I never had any trouble with it. My extreme caution as a child made me stalk the shadows and abuse sticky cams so much that I was basically never caught.
Except in Kalinatek, because fuck the first big hallway where they turn on the lights. I remember getting a heart attack *very* clearly there. I ran into a mine face first thinking they were gonna get me.
They aren't stealth games, but older Rainbow Six games have a pre-mission planning phase where you get most of the layout and create a route for your teams to follow. Good luck getting anyone but hardcore fans to care about doing that though.
Play IGI 1/2 or Hidden and Dangerous 1/2
Bruh, you highly overestimate the military.
That sort of intelligence is rare. The military doesn't go in raw, it generally has a baseline, but not the full blown schematic.
And unless its a super important op, you won't typically do dry-runs - as constructing the dry-run costs a good chunk of money.
You may go over it in a terrain model, or maybe run a few TDG's (tactical decision games), but a full on dry run is rare.
The SplinterCell music at 4:30 gave me such a wave of nostalgia. I really wish they would make a good SplinterCell game again.
*Masters of Stealth:*
1. Cardboard Box Solid Snake
2. John Cena
3.
Damn, number 3’s pretty good
SPAH
3 is so stealthy we can't see it. wait i think i saw someth-
Don't forget 4.
@@dicksonZero must've been the wind
Having recently started playing Monaco (the indie title), I must admit Mark nailed the theme that he chose. Will keep on watching this series as it gets released!
Hi Mark! I just watned to express my gratitude towards your content, especially in these unusual times. I work for IGN Hungary as a reviwever and writer, and your well-explained ideas has helped me for years to express my thought about certain genres or games.
Thank you and I wish you the best of luck!
Cheers!
A game mechanic I loved was the cooperative mode from SC:CT where, you could use voice chat in game but if you made too much noise, the guards could hear you. You could use this to lure them into a trap but it also made communication more difficult.
I wish we could see a similar feature in a game like The Division.
You can find great use of visible perception cones in the "Commandos" series. For some reason not many people talk about them, but they were absolutely amazing games.
So happy you decided to split this up into several episodes. This would have been a behemoth or severely lacking some in-depth analysis had it been just one part.
I liked how *Mark of the Ninja* had the condition of scared shitless, in addition to idle, suspicious and in pursuit.
I'd love more 3D stealth games explore guards with different personalities and fear/anxiety levels, when if you're good enough they might say "Fork it, I'm not paid enough for this." Maybe some cool traits from psychological to supernatural to throw you out of the loop sometimes.
Imagine hiding from a vampire, that can't see you, only hear and is forced to avoid holy places, running water and can be distracted by having forced to count scattered seeds. Or a suspicious guard not calming down, once they've seen som treasures missing, or a supersticious guard thinking the place is haunted after you prank them, or magical gumshoe being able to follow your steps, but only in the same exact order (so you can always make path longer), or the guard that is watching cameras in real time, so you have a chance be not seen by them, at the cost of having harder time later, etc.
Considering how many games slap on stealth mechanics to spice the game up, mess up all the mechanics, and instead just ruins the experience for one level, making this miniseries is a genius idea :D (Speaking of, having illustrative examples of games that do the exact opposite of a stealth "best practice" to highlight just why the mechanics work when used properly could be a nice educational touch - my main pet peeve is when a game doesn't give you any feedback on whether you're hidden or not, so you need to trial-and-error through an invisible hedge maze to find the path the designers want you to take)
Bioshock Infinite's Burial at Sea Episode 2 has a really challenging "1998" stealth mode. I love it!
awesome new series! One thing always bother me about stealth game is when you have practically invisible AI companion. Yes, it will be super annoying to have your companion get caught by the enemies but making 'em walk or bump around the enemies like they are invisible always break the immersion for me, especially on serious, grounded games like The Last of Us or Ghost Recon
Very excited about this deep dive mini-series. Leveraging the pathfinding system for sound propagation is pretty clever.
In CounterSpy, when you enter a new area in sight of guards, you get a couple of seconds to get hidden before they officially see you. I feel like that's a work-around for how the procedural level maps are made, but at least it gives you a chance, even if it doesn't work again once you're in that area.
Great video and very informative - as ever!
The last stealth game i finished was *A Plague Tale* , which wasn't mentioned/seen in this video. The detection mechanics in this one worked quite well I thought. There were some tricky parts but it never felt unfair or impossible, thanks to some of the tools you talked about in this video.
I thought A Plague Tale was really well balanced in that regard. You had to think about which tools to use to solve each navigation puzzle, so it was tense and satisfying, but it wasn't tough enough that failure started to grate against the narrative flow.
Excellent job Mark. Right before I saw the notification for this video I was feeling very drained having been couped up for so long and not able to enjoy my usual routine which is crucial to my productivity. I was about to give up for the day but getting to see a new video from you gave me the boost I needed to keep working. And I was so glad to see you talk more extensively about Mark of the Ninja and Thief. Both are game I never would have played without your discussion of them and they are phenomenal for both the reasons you mentioned; Mark's perfect knowledge lets me pull off ridiculous trap that let me be a master assassin, but the first time I played Thief I could feel my heart pounding from fear that I was going to be spotted.
Thanks for the amazing job, Mark!
You're by far my favorite game design content creator and hope you continue this works for many years!
Regarding the video topic, I would like to see other senses in stealth, like smell.
Aside from the fact that your videos are always gold, I'm super hyped that you've chosen the stealth genre for your next mini-series. It's one that I very much either love or hate, and i hope that understanding why gives me new tools for discussion, the same way most of your insights do.
Perfect series for now since we are hiding from the coronavirus.
While it is hiding in some of us...
@@necrago Now that right there is the perfect scenario for a stealth horror game.
Was gonna like....But it has stopped at 69!!
This could not have come at a better time for me, I’m making a stealth game for my thesis project for my bachelor’s degree and this series is gonna be my bible for this last month of working from home!!
Yes! Stealth is my favorite, thanks for this :)
I remember so much the first time I played MGSV Ground Zeroes, I was inmensely tense when carrying Paz because of the sounds she made, like "Shut up they're gonna hear you!" (I was literally screaming that to the screen), but that tension was soooo much fun!!!
Brilliant stuff, as always. I just started replaying Thief: Deadly Shadows, so this video was perfectly timed, especially the quote from the original Thief's Lead Programmer. It sums up why I love that series, and the stealth genre as a whole. Can't wait for the next video in the series.
I don't know how many people have played Monaco, but it's one of my favorite games of all time, VERY simplistic yet SO effective on the stealth gameplay
Hello! Your videos are incredible.
I think an interesting video could be how games balance, not just through mechanical skill, memory, and strategy. But around Fear. Take for example the mechanics of Alien isolation, which is a fairly straightforward stealth puzzle game, which then becomes incredibly difficult because you can't keep a clear head.
As said by Ras al Ghul in Batman Begins. "Feel terror cloud your senses"
Another example of this could be the stress induced difficulty of the lockpicking at the end of the water monster corridor in Amnesia: The dark descent. Or anything you do while getting chased by the regenerator in dead space.
Shadow Tactics is the best stealth game I have ever played so I'm glad you included it. Minmi Games did an absolutely phenomenal job in not only modernizing the "commandos" formula, but also improving upon it.
I'd love to see a mini-part about how stealth interacts with combat, and how the different ways and numbers of how to deal with enemies changes the feel. Like, how do games like MGS (which have multiple different ways to dispatch enemies), compare to games with only one/one main method of attack (Mark of the Ninja), or none at all (survival horror)? Or how most games let you kill guards, but others don't?
Hmmm, "none at all" doesn't necessarily mean "survival horror" tho. Actually, survival horror games usually allow you to kill/dispatch your enemies and engage in combat (Look Resident Evil games apart from 4-5-6, those are action-horror; *System Shock 2, Alien:Isolation etc), however, even in a shooting-focused survival horror, it is always quite risky to do so, and is not always a viable solution. In traditional survival horror games ammo is always limited, you are vulnerable and the threats are tough or deal alot of damage, if not both, but you're usually not forced to fight, as you may be able to run away, making engaging in combat a tactical decision. In a game like Alien: Isolation engaging in combat can be lethal and quite often, even with a group of survivors, but you can use that to your advantage and in general you have a number of different ways to kill/dispatch low tier threats, and survive an encounter/fend off the MVP that is the Alien.
Horror games that have no means or ways to engage or kill the threats are games like Amnesia, Layers of Fear, Outlast etc and I imagine you were referring to exactly those games, specifically Amnesia and Outlast, as they are stealth focused. Many horror game enthusiasts don't consider those as survival horror, rather as a beast of a somewhat different breed, that still has no proper definition/name, I definitely couldn't find it. Some people call those simply "horror games" buuut that's just bad as it is already taken and stands for, well, horror games but of every kind/sub-genre etc (action-horror, survival-horror and so on). Some say they should be called as "stealth-horror", which is better, probably best option, but still I think there are some problems with it. I even read some people refering to those games as "modern horror" which is probably even worse than just calling them horror games, so yeah.
@@ЯношБан Fair enough. I just like the idea of a stealth game where you can't just "remove" the guards. I know that you don't have to allow killing in order to "remove" guards, you can incapacitate them in other ways, but still.
@@mayatunes I get it, I also like that idea, I mean, the more diverse the genre the better in general. I just wanted to point out that if people talk "survival horror" and mean by that games like Amnesia, Outlast, Layers of Fear, or, on the opposite end of the spectrum, Dead Space, RE5 and etc, that may not be really correct.
My favorite fun stealth section is that of UnMetal, where you even get to choose the type of guards (not knowing what it will mean exactly) by telling your story in an interrogation and then playing it out in hindsight. This game deserves a huge mention!
" smarting an entire army, without you being seen"
Me in dishonored : killed everyone because i got seen by 1 guy and ge alerts everyone
This reminds me of an amusing post I saw on Facebook months ago. One person is talking about how there are two ways to play stealth: no-one sees you, or leave no-one alive to see you. The second person remarks: so stealth, and Russian stealth.
The Siren games have an interesting solution for view cones as well. Letting you literally switch your view to see what the enemies are seeing from their perspective, as if switching channels on a tv. As a horror stealth game, this has the added benefit of giving you that classic view from the monster's eye that is used in so many horror movies. It's also a good way to scout around without having to risk getting spotted.
And when you do decide to get a move on, you lose the enemy perspective, have no radar screen for overview, and will have to trust that the enemy is still where you last saw them. Adding a feeling of tension that perfectly elevates stealth game tropes into a full on horror experience.
Siren on the PS3 somewhat alleviated this by letting you split the screen, so one half is your own view, the other half shows what your 'sight jacked' enemy is seeing, but only for one enemy at a time.
My favourite thing in stealth games is all the actions that a player can take that aren't the direct route or simply shooting enemies and play up the particular stealth fantasy the game's portraying.
For example in the Batman Arkham games you can get a gadget that remotely disables enemy guns. Depending on the game, this gadget either has a long cooldown between uses or a fixed number of uses per encounter. Nothing is quite as satisfying as getting the guards super-scared of Batman, disabling the remaining guns and then intentionally revealing myself and watching the horror on the guards faces as they realise their guns, their only strength against the Batman, is worthless and then I take them out. I don't even run after them, I walk because Batman's that badass and the enemy's that screwed.
While strong, this strategy has some downsides - The long cooldown/limited uses and guards who realise their guns don't work with either switch to melee combat or run off to get a new gun from a supply crate. This means the player has to plan their attack and move swiftly like the Batman would to make the most of the temporary advantage.
The quality of your videos never ceases to amaze me. Head an shoulders above everything else.
This is easily one of the best game Dev yt channels. Keep up the great content!
P. S. : I'm trying to learn game development in unity, could you please suggest me some channels or some series?
Brackeys and Mix and Jam!
@@GMTK Brackeys is amazing
Impeccable timing on this one! I am currently learning about game design because I want to create a stealth game myself and seeing my favorite Game Design channel upload a mini series about just that made my day! Thank you for your continued efforts to make Game Design techniques more well-known to the public and more accessible!
The most amazing part of this video is that he said "coronavirus" in it without UA-cam vomiting all the warning boxes all over the page.
Nobody even clicks that shit anyway
@@rossanderson4156 If they get a click-through rate of even 0.001%, that's still a huge number of people directly accessing WHO's information. I for one did.
And then even when people don't click it, it still generates public awareness about the WHO being the most trusted source on the matter.
@@mickioo What is who?
Pedro World Health Organization
@@mickioo awareness about who?
6:08 thats what i like about the whalers in Dishonored: they are completly silent and never spoeak one word when they are searching, making them feel like they are truly assasins who know what they are dealing with unlike you common guard.
Remember Commandos series? That also displayed visual detection cones.
I started developing a stealth game the day before this was posted. Your timing Is genuinely impressive...
the two styles of stealth: hiding from monsters & hunting down prey
I wonder if you could make a hybrid of these types. One where you start out hiding from the monsters in the shadow, then, as you progress, become the monster in the shadows. I guess Arkane's Prey gets to this somewhat; the player starts out afriad of every small object, but, as the game progresses, you gain the same powers as the Typhon enemy and can pull the same stuff off.
Metal Gear Solid 5 is the hybrid of those. I highly recommend it.
Good thing about the confinement is that we get even more good content on UA-cam! Thank you!
Interesting how the camera really empowers the player characters, and how few stealth games opt for first-person (Thief stands out to me). It's kinda ridiculous you can see both your player crouch behind cover, and exactly totally everything behind that cover, yet often in the player characters shoes all that information wouldn't come from their actual perception. It's a sort of player-omniscience (perhaps that would be an interesting topic to cover?)
Zelda: Breath of the Wild did a good job with their fuzzy detection. Different enemies have different levels of awareness based on their danger level which is the best way to fight them. Some Lynel can see from really far away but the best way to fight them is through mounting and attacking them since it's a 1 v 1 encounter, but are otherwise avoidable. And on the other end less aware bokoblins and such you can sneak attack to kill, but will call for reinforcements if they spot you since you typically fight them in encampments.
I think Zelda: Phantom Hourglass deserves a mention! (Fully visible cones, near instant discovery, safe zones, best Link.)
Not a super popular game, so perhaps Mark never played it, but it would have fit it nicely with the section around 8:26
This is an incredible insight to stealth games universally. And I’m only 2 mins deep. Thank you for taking the time to make this.
Guard notices me a few feet away.
Me: *Run back to the old hiding spot*
Guard: Oh probably just nothing.
Robbery Bob also has a good system for patrols - they're clearly laid out as dotted lines along the path each person takes.
I was hoping you'd get to this! Specifically, MGS.
I can think of a situation where you might want to do extra raycasts in addition to parts of the player's body: Checking for light visibility. If you're just checking the player, then standing in a shadow with a lit area behind would show them as hidden when they really shouldn't be. Add a few extra points around the player's hitbox that rays would normally go through and continue them if they don't hit anything between the guard and target point and sample the light from where they eventually do hit and use the contrast between there and the player to influence the visibility calculations.
You never really know when a Guardian sees you until you hear the piano music and get shot with lasers
I love stealth games! I've played a lot, and my favorites are the ones that factor in believable tactics. Splintercell: Blacklist was the first stealth game that gave me bonus points for leaving enemies completely untouched, which I thought was very cool. Even one dead or unconscious body should be enough to put an entire compound on lock-down, but most game guards just chalk it all up to "imagination".
The only thing in stealth games that doesnt make sense is how if one person sees you, everyone in the compound and their deceased grandma knows where you are and mission failed
Clearly they're using SOP from MGS4.
Not in every stealth game, in MGS V the guards scream "Enemy/Intruder spotted" after he spotted you to alert the other guards. A bad example of this is Watch Dogs 2 though.
Metal gear solid 3 they call support via radio, and you can shoot the radio of their hands.
Corps Don’t the guards in WD2 only get alerted if they see another alerted guard or hear too much gunfire? Seems pretty realistic.
@@IAmUnderscore nope, they get alerted IMMEDIATELY
My man out here putting chapters in his video. very clean.
"Huh, guess it was nothing."
Every guard ever.
We have to appreciate the amount of research involved in making these videos! Brilliant
Now I want a *Reverse Batman game* .
Where we play as criminals, and being hunted by Batman.
Imagine, playing as a 4 people squad to rob a museum and suddenly, one of your friends is gone.
Batman chasing you down from the shadows, while you try to escape.
Take too long/do too much damage and batman calls Superman in and you just... lose.
Sounds like a great asymmetric multiplayer game
@@drgray6073 ever heard of Evolve?
“I hope you’re all doing OK in the midst of this awful coronavirus pandemic. It’s such a scary situation, so please stay safe”. You too, Mark. You too.
"Should we gather for whiskey and cigars tonight?"
Think you'll get your own squad after what happened last night?
"How old did you say your sister was?"
I love your videos so much. Honestly, I don't even play a ton of videogames, but they're structured so well that it's hard not to watch. They do such a great job of holding your attention and explaining new concepts. I honestly want to show them to my Communications professor just so we can appreciate how well written your scripts are. The visual aids are fantastic. Everything is organized into a logical procession. Thanks for having a great channel.
Thank you very much - I work really hard on the flow and structure of my scripts so nice to see it appreciated :)
I was starting to freak out during the first three and a half minutes of the video: WHERE IS THIEF?
So few youtubers or even content creators give me such an understanding of their subject matter. I totally understand that I’m no master or even student of game design, but I do feel like I have a vocabulary to describe why I don’t like some games or why. I love Sly Cooper, but not as a stealth game. I didn’t understand why until this video. Thanks again GMTK. (I also understand that just watching these videos does not give me license to be an armchair game designer on forums)
This is how I do it in my games, I use larger sphere collider(set as trigger) to define range of sight then I create empty Game Object and make it child of enemy model. Now when player is within that collider then I calculate angle between forward direction and direction from player to enemy and if this angle is less than max angle(which is 45 or 60) then player is in sight and it's time to chase
Any games any of us would know? :)
Could you say that again, but in English?
Man the music from Splinter Cell Double agent is amazing. Hearing it here again brought back good memories.
Damn.... I just got to work so I can’t watch this. ILL BE BACK!
Edit: got fired..... no joke. SO IM BACK!
Sad to hear that mate
F
rip
What did you do?
Well, there's your silver lining, I suppose
Once again, a fantastic video from a fantastic channel. This is the quality the world needs
"what? did you hear that, did you see something?" "oh nothing"😂
Talking about the alert state in guards, in Thief: The Dark Project, if the guards are idly walking, you can knock them out in one hit using your blackjack. However, if they are on alert (if they hear you, even if they haven't spotted your exact location,) you will be unable to knock them out. Sure, you could still try to kill them with your sword, but, if you play on harder difficulties, you will get an instant Game Over if you kill anyone. Awesome video!
"What game guards see and hear" A rock, another rock, a few more rocks. All from the same place. Then a suppressed shot and hurried footsteps, a noisy roll. The thump of a body, more shots, some kind of flashbang grenade
Game guards are stupid
@Richard Foran I don't think you understand the fundamental purpose of immersion and entertainment.
@Richard Foran
Would you really want to play a stealth game where, if you were spotted once, the guards entered an alert state that lasted for hours of time? That one dead body you didn't quite hide well enough would send the entire base into full alert for the rest of the session? You do know there's a difference between the fantasy of being a hidden ghost who no one knows is there and the reality? For one thing the latter requires a ton more push ups.
Matt Morehouse some people would, yes. I think for most stealth games it would be nice to have a difficulty setting like that where it’s almost realistic.
In Ape Escape (which has some stealth mechanics but isn't primarily a stealth game) they're monkeys, so maybe it makes a little more sense there.
@@adams13245 yes I would actually. Same reason people like driving sims or shooters like ARMA. Some people like doing something that's not realistically attainable in real life as realistically as possible in a game.
So glad Blades of the Shogun was mentioned. It's free on Xbox Game Pass to anyone interested and that's where I picked it up first. I was completely enraptured by the game and how intuitive it's stealth mechanics work. I'd love to see more of it in this series.
99:99
"HQ, HQ..."
"This is HQ..."
Me: [sweating inside a bush] I... I was going to get some snacks anyway...
It's cool to think about all of the mechanics at the same time and also how those mechanics can change the feelings players get.