I think we'll get much more out of BloodRaven very soon in the books. For instance, think of how Dany could have got the idea of how to hatch dragon eggs or how to get into a fire unharmed (when we do know Targaryens are not fire-immune). Messing with Targaryens' dreams could explain a lot of stuff. And somehow, I'm very compelled to think that Targaryens' exceptionalism and their extraordinary destiny is a self-fulfilling prophecy, made possible by a well-delivered time travel loop. Also, there's clearly more about the role of the Children here, their true motives.
Blood raven wants house Targaryen to survive because in one life time he was a Targaryen so he was loyal to the house and maybe cares on broad world. I think part of what makes the children of the forest kinda scary is they seem to just want to survive, on one level they made the night king but on another they seem to can't fight what create when it goes rogue, but it's also possible lots of magic stuff in westeros extends from them but they seem to not always care about others problems. I imagine they only care on the world because they don't want own species wiped out, maybe I'd put them on par with old velaryia. I'm not sure if they are most powerful because what if they don't control all magic in the north
Interesting that you predict that Bran will be distraught and changed by the revelation that he broke Hodor. I don’t necessarily think he’ll see that as completely bad. Hodors condition was vital to get Bran where he is and to develop his powers. Bran is not necessarily morally pure. He knows warging hodor scares him but he justifies it. It’s been argued that Bran is on a villian arc.
Yeah I don't discount the possibility of any of the Starks going full-blown villain, and I can especially see it with Bran if he becomes anything like the bizarre robo-Bran we saw towards the end of Game of Thrones. Bran definitely isn't morally pure by a long shot but I see Hodor as his kind of "come to Jesus" test, either he'll excuse himself or he'll be forced to confront and accept the fact that he has done and has been doing something monstrous, and the solution isn't as simple as just "giving Hodor back to himself" like he seems to think it is at this point.
A Villain arc just like Daenerys who also justifies her actions. That she is doing what needs to be done for her goals. To save the world. Wink wink 😉 😜
Oh this is fun to think about. Of course, you invite sooo many paradoxes and questions when invoking time travel. If Aegon had not invaded Westeros but for his vision sent by Bloodraven, Bloodraven would’ve never been born in the first place to be able to send his vision. Bloodraven certainly does do things without too many thoughts of long term consequences (I find it highly likely Euron Greyjoy and his coming apocalypse is due to Bloodraven breaking his mind as a child as he did with Bran) so it wouldn’t be too difficult to imagine that Bloodraven would bring catastrophe and do crazy things with his powers, but it would have to depend on how precisely time works within ASOIAF. It’s the whole ‘if I go back and time and kill my grandpa…’ like of thought that ends up being a crazy never ending circle. It really creates even more questions than answers (which is of course something GRRM loves, and his science fiction filled childhood of course).
the problem is people confuse time and causality. "i cant go back in time and kill my grandpa because then I wouldnt be born." but you ARE born. You exist. Going back in time and killing your grandpa cant undo you because reality doesnt care about things like lineage. Causality is a human perception, not how reality works. Assuming travelling through time is possible you cant think of yourself as a person, just a collection of particles. A different set of particles than your grandpa. If you killed him it may through off the timeline, but you are already there, in the past, and you exist. You wouldnt stop existing because as far as the universe is concerned you arnt your grandpas grandson, youre just particles. So you would exist in the past, and wherever else you go, even if you werent born according to the timeline. The mere fact you were even able to kill your grandpa shows there isnt a paradox in you being there.
in the case of bloodravens vision, once bloodraven enters the weirwood in any timeline, causality stops mattering for him. He exists outside it, and can shape the timeline however he wants. Only other people who have achieved this "unstuck from time" status would know any different. All he had to do was be born, enter the weirwood, and then the entirety of history is his to change with no effect to him at all.
@@OfficialChrissums Not to mention that if it's a causal loop scenario, it means that there was no version of the timeline in which Bloodraven or Bran haven't impacted the past, they always have and always will, it's pre-determined.
@@OfficialChrissums That’s certainly an interesting thought. Though I don’t believe causality is human perception. Human perception of causality is what we call time. Time is the process of change, of cause and effect. If there’s no cause and nothing happens, there is no longer any time. The process of causality is what we call time. The process of our particles changing, whether on our level or the atomic level, is the process of change which we perceive and name as time. It still does not escape the issue I posed: If Aegon only left Dragonstone due to Bloodravens visions, then over a hundred years before Bloodraven ever being born Aegon would not have conquered the kingdoms and the long chain of events leading to Bloodravens birth and eventual vision sending would’ve never taken place. As for Bloodraven and his weirwood palace being outside the veil of time completely, that is a possibility. But there’s yet to be any evidence supporting that whatsoever. Melisandre even sees Bloodraven and Bloodraven looks back at her, so clearly there is interaction from where he sits and the outside world and all the magic involved with it. But it still wouldn’t explain the issue I’ve already posed. If we accept Aegon only left Dragonstone due to Bloodraven, then Bloodraven would never have existed in the first place to be able to do so. Unless we are doing some Doctor Strange multiverse with copy and pastes from one universe to others.
I think it's the children of the forest who have been sending warnings to men for years but lack the proper communication which is why they have been recruiting "ravens". Nettles might be a child of the forest who taught Daemon and took him to the north after the battle above the God's eye until he started deteriorating so they needed a new raven, enter Bloodraven (possibly also Shiera aka Quaithe) And now Bran is the new recruit because Bloodraven is wasting away. They must have seen the Targaryens as key players with their dragons and dragon glass when they arrived on Dragonstone but it took them years to make contact until they were finally able to send Aegon a prophecy. Maybe there was a similar case with Azor Ahai, but who knows, maybe time travel is the thing 🤷🏼♀️
I think it's 3-Eyed Raven Bran that caused it all, not Bloodraven. Yes, BRAN STARK wouldn't keep mucking with people's minds after what happened to Hodor. Bran Stark was mostly a good boy. The 3-Eyed Raven Bran is a one man security and surveillance state. He effectively has absolute power and depending on how the Weirwood net works, may even be an agent of a foreign power, that is the Children of the Forest. Even if there is a bit of the real Bran Stark still in there, people change as they age. Who is to say that ten years after 3-Eyed Raven Bran becomes king, he won't realize that in order for things to turn out as he likes he needs to tweek some people's minds and dreams throughout history because they won't make the 'right' decisions with their own free will.
In the show at least, I thought that the "Burn them all!" line from the Mad King would be something similar to the "Hold the Door!" In fact I'm mad the show didn't do anything with that or Bran's powers in general.
Yeah and I'm quite sure that won't be the case in the books, I similarly expected it to have some kind of "hold the door" level significance and the fact that Bran being able to TIME TRAVEL had no impact on the story beyond Hodor is completely nonsensical.
I discovered your channel a few days ago and I’ve been binging all your videos. I’ve only read the first book, and half heartedly followed the show (I have a low tolerance for violence to begin with, and as a Sansa fan who has disliked Danaerys from the moment she embraces being a Khaleesi of the Dothraki and all it entails), but your videos are making me want to read the whole series. You make me think there is more to it than gratuitous sex and violence (your idea that GRRM made everything so over the top specifically so that readers can’t rationalize it absolutely blew my mind). I was always disappointed by the lack of the Stark family - and especially Bran - having powers seeming ti have any major effect on the ending of the show. So much build up and potential, and then nothing. Why are the starks being wargs important? Why must there always be a stark in Winterfell? Why the emphasis on the kings of winter and all their descendants being buried in the crypts? Why reveal the the night king was a stark if it doesn’t mean anything to the plot?? I love this theory, and am looking forward to reading the books with all the things you’ve been saying in mind.
Yeah, in my opinion the books are way more than worth reading obviously! And while I actually tend to give D&D more leeway than a lot of fans, I definitely think they had their work cut out for them in the sense that a lot of the nuances of the books are just very difficult to adapt under any circumstances, and some of their more pragmatic choices (for example leaning really hard into the Dany hero arc when she became the show's most iconic character) really torpedoed their ability to give the series a satisfying ending and give all of the characters their due. Largely I think it's a fun series because the constantly changing POVs really enables every reader to have their own interpretation of the story, ASOIAF can legitimately be a different story for every single person who reads it, and there are so many details and possibilities that there's really endless stuff to dig into in a way that obviously would never be possible for GoT or any TV series.
I only discovered your videos very recently and you've fast become one of my favourite ASOIAF discussion channels! Looking forward to seeing your channel continue to grow!
An interesting idea and one that may have some basis in the story as far back as AGOT I forget where I read this but I think it was a SSM where GRRM once said that the exact character of Bloodraven didn't always exist but he was sure as far back as the first book that the three eyed crow was someone who had some connection to House Targaryen. So even before Bloodraven himself existed, GRRM was thinking of some way to more deeply connect the Targs to the Others plot
That is true, because you have 40 dragon lord families but you have other old velaryian families, ex the high towers. People from esos made it to westeros early. Now either the 3 eye raven likes house Targaryen because as a man he was from that house so he's got weird house loyalty. Or he knows either dragons or only magic of old velaryia can do certain things. Many can't do magic at the old calibur and only dragonlords had dragons and by got I think only house Targaryen was left. But we don't know anything on the dragon lords vs old time magic users. It was also even blood magic that made dragon lords. And by time dany was alive she wasn't putting ancestor souls into dragons
It's nice to see your channel slowly growing. I may not always agree with your interpretations but you do make excellent ASOIAF content, some of the best there is
With the title like this, you placed the bar for this video pretty high 😂 I’ve been binging your videos whole day so I’m really grateful for delivering my queen 🙏
I don't think bloodraven was the first three eyed raven. Everything about that whole position tells me it's one that the children recruit humans to from time to time, to prepare for the return of the others and to keep greenseer magic alive in the relevant human bloodlines. I do think northern magic was involved in giving Daenys the dreamer her foreknowlege of the Doom of Valyria, and that the whole targaryen conquest and rule was a result of magical manipulation.
I know this is a wild shot in the dark, but I like to believe that all of the actual time travel is all future Bran. Blood raven’s life was guided to become the man who will do whatever it needs to fix the perils of the world. Like him getting the wall sentence feels almost to perfect for a future Bran not to manipulate his life to make Bran become the person he’ll become. It could explain why there’s thousands of dead bodies. Instead of the pile of corpses being Blood ravens victims, it’s Bran’s victims. Future Bran tried finding the right person to educated young Bran and those are the corpses of those he touched but didn’t follow through. Euron living through his dream experience makes so much more sense in this context. Blood Raven’s drop was the safer version because he didn’t have to time travel. Maybe Hodoor’s mind break is supposed to exemplify how when Bran found people it was so brutal it killed most people. I think this adds a good shade of white to the almost pure black my boy Blood Raven has right now. Really keying into the funny idea that we still haven’t meet the puppet master of what we thought was the puppet master of puppet masters
@@HillsAliveYT I agree with that theory, I've always thought that all the prophecies and magic dreams and visions are memories of the future, sent by Bran to the past in order to influence people to act in a certain way. The actual prophecies themselves don't matter and have no real meaning, they are just a tool to guide everyone into the place that they are meant to be for the sake of whatever Bran's endgame is.
I like this theory. I don't think he will turn away like the video states in the end. He'll lean into it. That he wants to be the one sitting on the throne or any Throne at the end. He wants to be the Knight saving the day, but he will be the destroyer. He is the Ice 🧊 and Daenerys is the Fire 🔥. Jon is the balance. And if Bran has been the dreamer along could he have been the cause of why the others are attacking now????
I'm like 90 percent sure that Bran fucks up trying to warn the past about the other invasion and is the cause of Aerys the seconds madness. If hold the door became Hodor then him trying to warn about the others could easily become "burn them all"
Another awesome and thought-provoking video! I'm so sorry if someone else has already pointed this out, but since George loves his "history repeats" symbolism, this video of yours got me thinking further: will Winds of Winter have the conflict of Dany and Faegon mirror the one between Rhaenyra and her half-brother Aegon in Hot D? Your own video on Faegon actually being legit only makes my head want to work even harder. I mean, Shireen B. herself pointed it out: only the choosing of sides made things go to Hell.
OMG I don't want to spoil anyone who could be reading comments about how HotD is going to end but I can totally see Dany dealing with Aegon in the way that Aegon deals with Rhaenyra and I can't believe that didn't occur to me until reading your comment.
@@HillsAliveYT Absolutely, I definitely don't intend to spoil anything, either! And that's really kind of you to say, but it was YOUR videos that led me to connect those dots!
Congratulations on your first sponsor! I haven't commented recently since I haven't had much of substance to say, but I have been and will continue to watch all of your ASoIaF videos. It makes me happy to see your channel growing; people are seeing the value of your insights! Keep it up!
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that Bloodraven is one of the bastard sons of Aegon IV, as you said, so of course he would be obsessed with keeping House Targaryen in power. And he has the magical to keep himself alive, being over two hundred years old. But he's also known in history as a horrible tyrant who turned Westeros into a corrupt police state while he served as Hand of the King.
Amazing channel and ideas, thank you! I wanted to 'come back' into asoiaf and after binge watching all of your videos I'm so curious to reread it as an adult!
I've been shot down by people about this but I was like if someone could project their mind into bodies like that the was the mad king mad? What actions where influenced by bloodraven?!?! I've been saying this too!!
My favourite theory was that Bloodraven is an agent of the Children of the Forest and pruned the Targaryens and reduced their numbers to create Axhor Hai and save the realm. He did the Harrenhal tragedy and other events.
@@stars-and-clouds Ah my bad. I meant Summerhall. How did he do that? Well a woods witch was present at Summerhall. It’s speculated she was a children of the Forrest species. And we know Bloodraven works with CoF people. Not too far fetched to think that operative at HH did something fishy which caused the fire and elimination of many Targs.
@@daddy_1453 hmm I think you're onto something. I wouldn't put it past him. Makes me wonder why a blackfyre/targaryen would be against a ritual that was supposed to bring dragons back
Given the fact that the ending of Agot was basically the mutual annihilation of Dragon riders and the White Walkers, it's perfectly possible that bloodravens goal shifted from being a targaryen Stan to using them instrumentally to mutually destroy the Others and Dragons. Dragons are highly dangerous and I doubt the Children want them around any more than they want Others around.
I always thought that Bloodraven was telling Bran that by trying to influence the past, he would create his current present situation, which seems to bear out with Hodor. I believe that’s what Bloodraven was saying when he told Bran that he couldn’t change the past.
Total side question, but where do you stand on the idea that Crastor is Bloodravens kid? And that Bloodraven is orcustrating or t least carrying on the existing tradition of giving young to the Others?? All this Bloodraven talk had me thing on that 🤔 Also congrats on the sponsor!! Looking very youtube professional over here! 😎
I'm with Justin N. in the sense that Bloodraven and his current location/situation/etc. would not be the case if Aegon hadn't invaded in the first place, so I don't think this works. It might be what GRRM ends up doing, but it still simply doesn't work. There has to be a beginning to the time loop.
Yeah I could totally be wrong and this is definitely tin foil territory, but to be fair, plenty of time travel stories like The Terminator or 12 Monkeys are basically a similar ouroboros-style loop of the beginning only happening because of the end, and a lot of time travel narratives feature the same self-sustaining cycle where the beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.
I don't see a time loop as only possibility. Maybe small scale but Martin writes magic to have consequence so magic isn't too op and ruins the story. So for example we have the best magic users ever in valeryia and then the doom happens. With bran we get the Hodor thing, with Targaryen it's possible their own blood is their downfall. The children make the night king then that backfires on so many levels. Warging can get one stuck in their animals. Everyone who ever messed with time majority were isolated and they had some magic limits. And if one didn't mind fact magic had a price then I suppose I shouldn't bring the faceless men into this. But if it were only a time loop it'd break magic rule and story believability if too many time loops piled up in the universe. I mean for arguments sake, let's say it's all about bran, bran is op, why not just make bran special and have him be some incarnation of the son that started the empire of the dawn. Also the targ prophecy on the 3 headed dragon.... Targs arnt gods, they never were. The targaryens come from a place where magic was common, thus in that context they arnt any more special than other magic users, only difference is most of them have dragons but no magic in their blood as not all targs are dragon dreamers. I'm hypothesizing the awesome mages from the early era had some innate magic as well as magic artifacts etc. Westeros had own magic for example warging
I think the theory of Bloodraven luring Bran to him so he can take over his body is interesting as well - "It's time for you to become me" sounds more ominous with that theory in mind, but then again you would think that he'd just take over the body immediately. Not to mention, why bother with Bran if he keeps his powers, just take anyone who is young and strong - although, Bran has the Stark family name so it could be that.
If Bloodraven has been watching Bran (and we have every reason to believe he has) then it seems perfectly plausible that he realises that telling Bran NOT to do something (like climbing the walls of Winterfell) is not going to dissuade him from doing it - if anything, it will push him to do it more. Even if Bloodraven knew Bran would break Hodor's mind, he is absolutely the type to accept that as the price of pushing Bran into achieving the impossible, or at least Abominable (it seems easier for Bran to control Hodor's mind, however forbidden such an action is meant to be).
The three-eyed raven is definitely has an alternative motive…..The children of the forest FORCEFULLY made the Night King and the three eyed raven at the same time but that’s never explained I want to know why
I love your video and your ideas about time travelling from a weirwood throne. However, after reading Fire and Blood, I started thinking that the time manipulation was happening from a weirwood throne under the Isle of Faces. I will not name the person sitting on this throne but based on how the dance of the dragons chapters ends, you can guess who I am talking about. What do you think?
@@AshePBlack Haha my theory is a lot of tin foil. However, I suppose I am saying Blood Raven is not the first Targaryen to sit on a weirwood throne in a cave. Daemon's body was never found. In GRRM's world, that means there is a good chance he is not dead. We do know there is something magical happening on the Isle of faces, and that's where the dragon fight happens. BLood Raven's time is 50 years after TDOD but he and Daemon have a lot in common. They are both well versed in Targaryen history and customs. They are also both very loyal to the Targaryen family, and they seemed to be magical. That song Daemon sang to Vermithor was very magical. Daemon is magical, but he does not seem to not know it. Or he does not believe it. I suppose we will find out in 5 or 6 years :-( It takes so long to film this stuff.
Well interestingly, Bloodraven actually DOES mention that Bran will be able to go far beyond the weirwood network once his powers are developed, so it wouldn't surprise me if Bloodraven is capable of influencing the Targaryens even before they left Essos, especially since theoretically he should have a blood connection to both the First Men magic and Valyrian magic.
If you wanna get really wacky... In the world of Ice and Fire theres like blue inverse wierwoods that teh wine of worlocks comes from and theres a thought its like all teh same powers so.. if you follow the theory a true Greenseer could roam the globe in theory... but like its all kinda out there, for me at least I have yet to dive in and check it out beyond a Joe Magican video lol
Bran affecting hodor in the past kinda proves the 3 eyed raven right. Yes he was able to go in to hodor in the past and control him in the present but all he did to the past version of hodor was give him brain damage and it didn't even change the past. Hodor had always been like that so its a case of "what ever happened happened" to quote Lost.
I think Time Travel has a lot to do with the Targaryens, but not, especially with Bran and his Storyline. Someone on the Internet reminded me that GRRM once called Bran a King of Kings, which is actually some kind of God in most Religions' real and fictional Worlds. And then I thought about the Visions in the House of the Undying, where Daenerys actually time travels herself in some way. In the House of the Undying Daenerys gets a Prophecy, which is actually always a mystical Warning in the World of Ice and Fire, although it depends on who the Prophecy hears. For Example, the old Prophecy of the Stallion who mounts the World is interpreted as something good for the Dothraki, but for people like Miri Maaz Duur, it is a warning of a very dark Age. So when Daenerys gets a Prophecy it is a warning for her, although not for everybody. Interestingly enough the 3 Heads of the Dragon are mentioned in that Prophecy.🤔 A Prophecy in ASOIAF is always built in the same manner, first what happens a.k.a. the Warning itself, then the Warning how it will come to happen, at least the Hope for the Outsider. That being said, when a Prophecy was made before the Story, like with the Stallion who mounts the World, we don't have the full Prophecy, only what the People who interpret it as something good for them, sounds good. The same goes for Azor Ahai, where we only know that he will come and what will tell everybody he is back, but not the Costs, only the very ominous warning about darkness. I mean if the Red Priests want their Saviour to be followed it won't sound good that he will kill again his Wife, pretty sure every available Bachelorette would run away from that possible Saviour. If the Prophecy in the House of the Undying is a Warning and that is a place where Time doesn't flow as Bloodraven says, maybe the 3 Treasons Daenerys will know and learns about in that House and her Prophecy, maybe these Treasons did already happen. And it doesn't mean Treason that is committed against Daenerys, but these Treasons brought her into the Position in which she is now. And who could help to find that out better than a Time travelling Boy? And Daenerys already has Dreams where People who don't belong in her Head visit her, maybe Bran and Bloodraven will be there too at some Point.
I’m a bit confused about your Hodor comment. Why would Blood Raven care about Hodor? As I understand it, Bran “died inside the tree” as Meera said. I thought Bran died and the consciousness of blood raven took over his body. He had to “become the 3 eyed raven”. He told Jamie he was no longer bran stark. Which is why he is such a weirdo now. Or have I grossly misunderstood what happened to Bran for the passed 6 years?
I have to think Dany will fight the ice threat at some ppoint, jsut because she is a living fire magic person. I thought once that John would balance her - he is both ice and fire - but death changes things and Jon will only be able to balance her by killing her - maybe causing her to kill him. Or maybe he'll just run north and live as an ice zombie of sorts for a few years. Cold preserves. Jon as the next Coldhands?
They needed to pick a more menacing actor for Blood Raven if they wanted to take him from freaky tree wizard to, well, the book Three Eyed Raven. Only people who know the books will understand how in character it is for him to mastermind his entire family and use/sacrifice thousands, maybe millions of lives for his "greater good." It also makes sense in the books for Blood Raven have some kind of connection to Euron's whole apocalypse thing which is why both of those plots just sputtered out on the show.
@@HillsAliveYT On the show, Max von Sydow, as the Three Eyed Raven, says he has been in the weirwood tree for 1,000 years. Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven was a contemporary of Maester Aemon, Aegon V and Duncan the Tall. In addition the very name Bloodraven partly came from his physical appearance which the Von Sydow character did not have. Am I missing something? Why is everyone calling the TV show 3 Eyed Raven Bloodraven when it’s clearly not the same character?
Bran was infected by the night king when he grabbed his arm. After the night king was killed his spirit went into Bran and now Bran is a half 3 eyed Raven and half Night King.
I'm not sure if I think Bloodravem has been manipulating time in this way, because I think the true origin and ultimate purpose of the Targaryens is related to the GotD and the primal balance of magic within the world. Bloodraven might have become aware of that purpose through his investigations, but I'm more inclined to believe that Daenys and Aegon had visions simply because they have strongly magical blood that lets them see past the illusion of time the way the weirwoods do. I do think that Bran will likely discover some way of manipulating time, but probably only in places near weirwoods or their cousin Shade of the Evening trees, meaning his interference will be instrumental but highly limited
Yes because Martin doesn't want time travel to break rules of magic. Although unless blood raven or 3 eyed Raven is awesome old old velaryian mage he can't break story. All the supposedly awesome got characters when placed in proper eras actually become less extraordinary. Like compare dany to Targaryen elders, she's not that unique, everything was timing
Well, there is one thing that makes me doubt that the purpose of the time travel is to create the Targaryen dynasty, and that is the danger of altering the past in such a way that you are never born. If I was time travelling I would never dare to influence the past before my birth, because often it would take such a small change to delete yourself out of existence. I imagine he might have influenced things in his own lifetime, maybe he got himself sent to the wall perhaps. Maybe he manipulated things so that Bran was born etc.
The final season of Game of Thrones was lazily written. Bran Stark could have his powers as the Three-Eyed Raven to travel back in time and stop the Children of the Forest from creating The White Walkers. The Three-Eyed Raven creating the Targaryen's is very interesting but doesn't make much sense.
Character in the show is not Bloodraven. In the cave when he meets Bran for the first time, he said that he was "waiting for 1000y", that's way before Bloodraven. Also, if Bloodraven went back in time to create Targaryens wouldn't that be a causality loop paradox because he is also a Targaryen? So..he created himself down the line...makes no sense.
The children and blood raven didn't make the targaryens. 40 dragonlord families were made via blood magic in Valeria, that's nothing to do with the children. Warging and some magic the children have is not in esos bloodlines. The dragonlords were either in part of dawn empire era or a lil afterwards. Targaryens don't technically warg their dragons, it's a blood thing. Also in got Danny didn't get dragons by using souls of ancestors
@@AshePBlack Well, I know he didn't. I'm answering why it would be impossible. This video was supporting that not me, don't know why you are telling me all this. But main thing is, and most ignore this when going on and on about blood raven, he is not in the show. Character played in the show is something else, and if its him then show completely changed the lore and who blood raven is. Timetables don't align.
If Bran and Bloodraven wind up being Eren and Zeke Yeager influencing Grisha's memories as the Attack Titan via the Paths, imma lose it, and NOT in a good way
I think its Bran at the centre. He's incredibly powerful, and has already travelled through time. Bran's older self travels back to stop the apocalypse
The grandfather paradox! If Blooraaven interfer the slightest with the Targaryen history, he might not be born at all. And if he caused the Targaryen invasion, he was already born an therfore the Targ invasion was already a fact.
I think that when Bloodraven says you cannot change the past, he means that the history is already written in stone. And anything that Bran does in the past, already has happened. So he's not changing the past, he's creating his timeline. If you were able to change the past, you would very easily might change something that causes you to never be born and then how can you change the past if you are never born? So I think that Bran going into the past is how it always has been. Like in Nolans newest movie Tenet. You can't change the past but you can learn from it. If you were able to change the past, you must also create multiverses everytime you change something. I don't think that's how GRRM rolls. Watch Avengers Endgame and how they explain time travel. They definitely went into different universes. One universe where Loki ends up in his own TV Show, one where Captain America reunites with Peggy. And then they return to their universe, never having anything change
I think the past is the past is strictly the truth. Nothing Bloodraven could do would make his ghosts hear him. But Bloodraven doesn't know that his beloved brother once heard a whisper in the trees saying his name, it was something you could never know until you travel back
I’m saying this, the dragon has three heads meaning the dragon, will have three separate conscious entities merged into one. Jons body is in the perfect position to do this.
Okay, my mind is blown away right now. Also, this got me thinking about Viserys’ dream (Viserys I, about a son that will be his heir), like, how does it align with Bloodraven’s tailoring of Targaryens’ dreams? Idk if this is far fetched Because essentially, Viserys realized that chasing of the dream is what killed Aemma. And this realization, or rather, *interpretation* cemented him in the decision to stick with Rhaenyra as heir. Like, is it possible that Bloodraven had in mind these complex psychological effects of the aftermath of the dream? As some comments have stated, Bloodraven might not have had the long term consequences of his interpolations in mind. If so, what was the short-sighted motivation behind this particular dream? Abolishing the misogynistic worldview from the majority of people lol just kidding, but I am hooked on the implications of this theory now Also, the question stands if Vicerys’ dream is the cannon, and not just in the HotD (I just started Fire&Blood so not sure) Edit: Just found out that apparently the dream doesn't relate specifically to Vicerys and Aemma's son, but to Vicerys and Alicent's
First of all, I doubt Bloodraven would intervene with anything before his conception I think Bloodraven did not cause the Targaryen Dynasty In Westeros, but his predecessor might have. Also, I prefer Bran manipulating the past as described by Preston Jacobs in his Time Traveling Bran series.
My guess is he wanted some people dead. He was loyal to house Targaryen but he manipulated bloodlines. An alternative theory is maybe ultimate goal is get rid of dragons and others, which actually based on dragon lore isn't a horrible idea. The children created the night king, dragons and dragon lords were created, end them solves some issues. But then you still got the maesters and high towers issue which is too much magic sets off a doom. And I'm guessing high towers use old velaryian magics so...
I think this is philosophical but Bloodraven believes that the past can't be changed because when you change the past, it was already made to happen - the original timeline and the changing of it. Bran changed Hodor into what he became in the past but it did not matter since Hodor was meant to become like that anyway. So in essence, the past is past whether there was changes to it or not.
What did you mean by Targaryn's going mad possibly due to "inbreeding & entitlement"? I understand the inbreeding part, that is basic biology/genetics... What does entitlement have to do with mental illness? I'm very intrigued by many of your takes, agree with some, disagree with others. I have noticed what might be considered personal bias in some of your opinions though, just through some of the words you choose to use, that really don't fit the idea. Also, on this topic, you are diving into a strange time loop paradox... I did find it weird what happens to Hodor and since the show hasn't always been faithful to source material, somethings can be tossed up to taking too much license with material. That being said... for Bloodraven to instigate the Targaryn's move to Westeros, then he would need to have knowledge he wouldn't have, because he didn't exist, but if he did exist, then he wouldn't be a Targaryn, or he did exist in another form, or... This is why I hate time travel in fantasy, it is messy and just creates more narrative problems than it solves. Anyway, pretty good content... I know I'm catching your videos long after they were created, but mostly enjoyable nonetheless.
You're probably right but we can more accurately assume he's manipulating the future. Making sure that certain people get married and have children. Jon snow for instance.
I really personally unless it's cannon cannot go with any everything is a time travel loop. My reasoning is laws of magic, which is in westeros, magic use has huge consequences. If if it's true that the doom on velaryian happened because over use of magic, then time magic would break universe or at least everything the 3 eye raven ever touched. Second of my points is that even 3 eyed Raven couldn't change everything in history, I mean if it were that easy, bran would prolly save his whole family. I think the original 3 eyed Raven would still do his thing to house Targaryen. On a diff note the Targaryen situation is odd because prior to their existence the world could have done with our them. But by got era I guess only Targaryen can be heros. I mean dragons are great I guess but old velaryia had magic seemingly unparalleled. This is what happens when knowledge and magic or whatever isn't passed on. I mean to use a got example, greyscale had no real cure till sam found it in a book and tried it. Who had that book, and who tried to forbid curing grey scale? Then you had a handful of high towers hoarding stuff, by time there's Otto and alicent they arnt particularly extraordinary. And it seems starks and Targaryen would rather take prophecy to graves because they think only they can save world. I give starks a pass because they are always moral to end, to a fault even
it was the most pointless thing ever. after all that traveling and training and journeying up north all bran does with it is mentally cripple winterfell's stable boy, a character who has zero impact on the plot, and tell Sam information he already knew. as much as i love hodor, in the show he doesnt add anything. that would be like cersei invading the north with the intention of killing Sansa or Jon and but she doesnt find them there because theyre in White Harbor rallying the north so instead Cersei just kills Old Nan and heads back south. like okay thats sad i guess but that is not going to affect ANYTHING. an absolutely pointless death just for the sake of being a bummer.
I just don’t understand why everyone is so hell bent on jon being a Targaryen it has yet to be confirmed I’m not saying I don’t think he is but Jesus y’all are stuck on it at least let George speak on it but I could be wrong and he has😂
Minor point: not all the magical conspiracies are pointing Daenerys to the wall and more importantly war. Quaithe, seemingly part of the “Starry eyed women cult” but in reality has broken from them, is telling Daenerys to go the opposite way to ?Ashshai?. It’s clues connected to Cat about Rob and therefore mother’s about their kids going to war, point being Quaithe is Ashara and Daenerys’ mother. Also noting all the people Quaithe warns Daenerys about are “war mongers” that will bring her to Westeros for the crown and the throne. Much like Cat and the Baratheon brothers, Quaithe is trying to prevent family in fighting between Aegon(young Griff) and Daenerys; especially since Ashara knows Aegon is trueborn (sorta not in reality for different reasons than fans think, but it’s complicated) and Daenerys is not (less complicated , but still messy definition particularly for the average Westerosi Noble). Quaithe likely believes that Daenerys, if she sits the throne, will have to give up her life either in death or marriage to the Nightking, or sacrifice her daughter to the others; in any case: Quaithe doesn’t want the for her daughter or her granddaughter hence leading Daenerys away from the throne and the wall letting Aegon’s line be sacrificed like the Septa Lemore’s (Tanner’s wife) son Pisswater Prince, who was actually killed by the Kingsguard to save Aegon and Rhaenys not Gregor and his men.
I think Bloodraven says the past cannot be changed because any attempt to do so is futilistic. Yes Bran created Hodor. But Hodor already existed. So he was always going to create Hodor. There was no other possible path.
I think we'll get much more out of BloodRaven very soon in the books. For instance, think of how Dany could have got the idea of how to hatch dragon eggs or how to get into a fire unharmed (when we do know Targaryens are not fire-immune). Messing with Targaryens' dreams could explain a lot of stuff. And somehow, I'm very compelled to think that Targaryens' exceptionalism and their extraordinary destiny is a self-fulfilling prophecy, made possible by a well-delivered time travel loop. Also, there's clearly more about the role of the Children here, their true motives.
I giggled at "very soon". Never give up hope :)
Blood raven wants house Targaryen to survive because in one life time he was a Targaryen so he was loyal to the house and maybe cares on broad world. I think part of what makes the children of the forest kinda scary is they seem to just want to survive, on one level they made the night king but on another they seem to can't fight what create when it goes rogue, but it's also possible lots of magic stuff in westeros extends from them but they seem to not always care about others problems. I imagine they only care on the world because they don't want own species wiped out, maybe I'd put them on par with old velaryia. I'm not sure if they are most powerful because what if they don't control all magic in the north
Interesting that you predict that Bran will be distraught and changed by the revelation that he broke Hodor. I don’t necessarily think he’ll see that as completely bad. Hodors condition was vital to get Bran where he is and to develop his powers. Bran is not necessarily morally pure. He knows warging hodor scares him but he justifies it. It’s been argued that Bran is on a villian arc.
Yeah I don't discount the possibility of any of the Starks going full-blown villain, and I can especially see it with Bran if he becomes anything like the bizarre robo-Bran we saw towards the end of Game of Thrones. Bran definitely isn't morally pure by a long shot but I see Hodor as his kind of "come to Jesus" test, either he'll excuse himself or he'll be forced to confront and accept the fact that he has done and has been doing something monstrous, and the solution isn't as simple as just "giving Hodor back to himself" like he seems to think it is at this point.
A Villain arc just like Daenerys who also justifies her actions. That she is doing what needs to be done for her goals. To save the world. Wink wink 😉 😜
Oh this is fun to think about. Of course, you invite sooo many paradoxes and questions when invoking time travel. If Aegon had not invaded Westeros but for his vision sent by Bloodraven, Bloodraven would’ve never been born in the first place to be able to send his vision. Bloodraven certainly does do things without too many thoughts of long term consequences (I find it highly likely Euron Greyjoy and his coming apocalypse is due to Bloodraven breaking his mind as a child as he did with Bran) so it wouldn’t be too difficult to imagine that Bloodraven would bring catastrophe and do crazy things with his powers, but it would have to depend on how precisely time works within ASOIAF. It’s the whole ‘if I go back and time and kill my grandpa…’ like of thought that ends up being a crazy never ending circle. It really creates even more questions than answers (which is of course something GRRM loves, and his science fiction filled childhood of course).
the problem is people confuse time and causality. "i cant go back in time and kill my grandpa because then I wouldnt be born." but you ARE born. You exist. Going back in time and killing your grandpa cant undo you because reality doesnt care about things like lineage. Causality is a human perception, not how reality works. Assuming travelling through time is possible you cant think of yourself as a person, just a collection of particles. A different set of particles than your grandpa. If you killed him it may through off the timeline, but you are already there, in the past, and you exist. You wouldnt stop existing because as far as the universe is concerned you arnt your grandpas grandson, youre just particles. So you would exist in the past, and wherever else you go, even if you werent born according to the timeline. The mere fact you were even able to kill your grandpa shows there isnt a paradox in you being there.
in the case of bloodravens vision, once bloodraven enters the weirwood in any timeline, causality stops mattering for him. He exists outside it, and can shape the timeline however he wants. Only other people who have achieved this "unstuck from time" status would know any different. All he had to do was be born, enter the weirwood, and then the entirety of history is his to change with no effect to him at all.
@@OfficialChrissums Not to mention that if it's a causal loop scenario, it means that there was no version of the timeline in which Bloodraven or Bran haven't impacted the past, they always have and always will, it's pre-determined.
@@OfficialChrissums Thank you so much for expanding my mind in such a healthy and stellar way 😍🤩🥰
@@OfficialChrissums That’s certainly an interesting thought. Though I don’t believe causality is human perception. Human perception of causality is what we call time. Time is the process of change, of cause and effect. If there’s no cause and nothing happens, there is no longer any time. The process of causality is what we call time. The process of our particles changing, whether on our level or the atomic level, is the process of change which we perceive and name as time. It still does not escape the issue I posed:
If Aegon only left Dragonstone due to Bloodravens visions, then over a hundred years before Bloodraven ever being born Aegon would not have conquered the kingdoms and the long chain of events leading to Bloodravens birth and eventual vision sending would’ve never taken place.
As for Bloodraven and his weirwood palace being outside the veil of time completely, that is a possibility. But there’s yet to be any evidence supporting that whatsoever. Melisandre even sees Bloodraven and Bloodraven looks back at her, so clearly there is interaction from where he sits and the outside world and all the magic involved with it. But it still wouldn’t explain the issue I’ve already posed. If we accept Aegon only left Dragonstone due to Bloodraven, then Bloodraven would never have existed in the first place to be able to do so. Unless we are doing some Doctor Strange multiverse with copy and pastes from one universe to others.
I think it's the children of the forest who have been sending warnings to men for years but lack the proper communication which is why they have been recruiting "ravens". Nettles might be a child of the forest who taught Daemon and took him to the north after the battle above the God's eye until he started deteriorating so they needed a new raven, enter Bloodraven (possibly also Shiera aka Quaithe)
And now Bran is the new recruit because Bloodraven is wasting away.
They must have seen the Targaryens as key players with their dragons and dragon glass when they arrived on Dragonstone but it took them years to make contact until they were finally able to send Aegon a prophecy.
Maybe there was a similar case with Azor Ahai, but who knows, maybe time travel is the thing 🤷🏼♀️
That would be a really cool ending for the rogue prince
I think it's 3-Eyed Raven Bran that caused it all, not Bloodraven. Yes, BRAN STARK wouldn't keep mucking with people's minds after what happened to Hodor. Bran Stark was mostly a good boy. The 3-Eyed Raven Bran is a one man security and surveillance state. He effectively has absolute power and depending on how the Weirwood net works, may even be an agent of a foreign power, that is the Children of the Forest. Even if there is a bit of the real Bran Stark still in there, people change as they age. Who is to say that ten years after 3-Eyed Raven Bran becomes king, he won't realize that in order for things to turn out as he likes he needs to tweek some people's minds and dreams throughout history because they won't make the 'right' decisions with their own free will.
In the show at least, I thought that the "Burn them all!" line from the Mad King would be something similar to the "Hold the Door!" In fact I'm mad the show didn't do anything with that or Bran's powers in general.
Yeah and I'm quite sure that won't be the case in the books, I similarly expected it to have some kind of "hold the door" level significance and the fact that Bran being able to TIME TRAVEL had no impact on the story beyond Hodor is completely nonsensical.
I discovered your channel a few days ago and I’ve been binging all your videos. I’ve only read the first book, and half heartedly followed the show (I have a low tolerance for violence to begin with, and as a Sansa fan who has disliked Danaerys from the moment she embraces being a Khaleesi of the Dothraki and all it entails), but your videos are making me want to read the whole series. You make me think there is more to it than gratuitous sex and violence (your idea that GRRM made everything so over the top specifically so that readers can’t rationalize it absolutely blew my mind).
I was always disappointed by the lack of the Stark family - and especially Bran - having powers seeming ti have any major effect on the ending of the show. So much build up and potential, and then nothing. Why are the starks being wargs important? Why must there always be a stark in Winterfell? Why the emphasis on the kings of winter and all their descendants being buried in the crypts? Why reveal the the night king was a stark if it doesn’t mean anything to the plot??
I love this theory, and am looking forward to reading the books with all the things you’ve been saying in mind.
Yeah, in my opinion the books are way more than worth reading obviously! And while I actually tend to give D&D more leeway than a lot of fans, I definitely think they had their work cut out for them in the sense that a lot of the nuances of the books are just very difficult to adapt under any circumstances, and some of their more pragmatic choices (for example leaning really hard into the Dany hero arc when she became the show's most iconic character) really torpedoed their ability to give the series a satisfying ending and give all of the characters their due.
Largely I think it's a fun series because the constantly changing POVs really enables every reader to have their own interpretation of the story, ASOIAF can legitimately be a different story for every single person who reads it, and there are so many details and possibilities that there's really endless stuff to dig into in a way that obviously would never be possible for GoT or any TV series.
I only discovered your videos very recently and you've fast become one of my favourite ASOIAF discussion channels! Looking forward to seeing your channel continue to grow!
An interesting idea and one that may have some basis in the story as far back as AGOT
I forget where I read this but I think it was a SSM where GRRM once said that the exact character of Bloodraven didn't always exist but he was sure as far back as the first book that the three eyed crow was someone who had some connection to House Targaryen.
So even before Bloodraven himself existed, GRRM was thinking of some way to more deeply connect the Targs to the Others plot
That is actually super interesting!
That is true, because you have 40 dragon lord families but you have other old velaryian families, ex the high towers. People from esos made it to westeros early. Now either the 3 eye raven likes house Targaryen because as a man he was from that house so he's got weird house loyalty. Or he knows either dragons or only magic of old velaryia can do certain things. Many can't do magic at the old calibur and only dragonlords had dragons and by got I think only house Targaryen was left. But we don't know anything on the dragon lords vs old time magic users. It was also even blood magic that made dragon lords. And by time dany was alive she wasn't putting ancestor souls into dragons
It's nice to see your channel slowly growing. I may not always agree with your interpretations but you do make excellent ASOIAF content, some of the best there is
With the title like this, you placed the bar for this video pretty high 😂
I’ve been binging your videos whole day so I’m really grateful for delivering my queen 🙏
This channel feels like GRRM is just throwing ideas out there to find a good way to take his story.
Your work is amazing Hill’s!
I don't think bloodraven was the first three eyed raven. Everything about that whole position tells me it's one that the children recruit humans to from time to time, to prepare for the return of the others and to keep greenseer magic alive in the relevant human bloodlines.
I do think northern magic was involved in giving Daenys the dreamer her foreknowlege of the Doom of Valyria, and that the whole targaryen conquest and rule was a result of magical manipulation.
I know this is a wild shot in the dark, but I like to believe that all of the actual time travel is all future Bran. Blood raven’s life was guided to become the man who will do whatever it needs to fix the perils of the world. Like him getting the wall sentence feels almost to perfect for a future Bran not to manipulate his life to make Bran become the person he’ll become.
It could explain why there’s thousands of dead bodies. Instead of the pile of corpses being Blood ravens victims, it’s Bran’s victims. Future Bran tried finding the right person to educated young Bran and those are the corpses of those he touched but didn’t follow through.
Euron living through his dream experience makes so much more sense in this context. Blood Raven’s drop was the safer version because he didn’t have to time travel. Maybe Hodoor’s mind break is supposed to exemplify how when Bran found people it was so brutal it killed most people.
I think this adds a good shade of white to the almost pure black my boy Blood Raven has right now. Really keying into the funny idea that we still haven’t meet the puppet master of what we thought was the puppet master of puppet masters
That is a super dark but really fun interpretation, I always love theories that lean into the grimmer side of the Starks.
@@HillsAliveYT I agree with that theory, I've always thought that all the prophecies and magic dreams and visions are memories of the future, sent by Bran to the past in order to influence people to act in a certain way. The actual prophecies themselves don't matter and have no real meaning, they are just a tool to guide everyone into the place that they are meant to be for the sake of whatever Bran's endgame is.
I like this theory. I don't think he will turn away like the video states in the end. He'll lean into it. That he wants to be the one sitting on the throne or any Throne at the end. He wants to be the Knight saving the day, but he will be the destroyer. He is the Ice 🧊 and Daenerys is the Fire 🔥. Jon is the balance. And if Bran has been the dreamer along could he have been the cause of why the others are attacking now????
I'm like 90 percent sure that Bran fucks up trying to warn the past about the other invasion and is the cause of Aerys the seconds madness. If hold the door became Hodor then him trying to warn about the others could easily become "burn them all"
Another awesome and thought-provoking video! I'm so sorry if someone else has already pointed this out, but since George loves his "history repeats" symbolism, this video of yours got me thinking further: will Winds of Winter have the conflict of Dany and Faegon mirror the one between Rhaenyra and her half-brother Aegon in Hot D? Your own video on Faegon actually being legit only makes my head want to work even harder. I mean, Shireen B. herself pointed it out: only the choosing of sides made things go to Hell.
OMG I don't want to spoil anyone who could be reading comments about how HotD is going to end but I can totally see Dany dealing with Aegon in the way that Aegon deals with Rhaenyra and I can't believe that didn't occur to me until reading your comment.
@@HillsAliveYT Absolutely, I definitely don't intend to spoil anything, either! And that's really kind of you to say, but it was YOUR videos that led me to connect those dots!
Your videos are really high quality, especially for a smaller channel. Keep up the good work :)
My first new Hill’s Alive video since subscribing! So excited
Congratulations on your first sponsor! I haven't commented recently since I haven't had much of substance to say, but I have been and will continue to watch all of your ASoIaF videos. It makes me happy to see your channel growing; people are seeing the value of your insights! Keep it up!
Thanks! LOL and I was beyond shook that any actual legitimate company wanted to sponsor my infant baby channel.
@@HillsAliveYT Do you know the Game of Thrones Rewrite series by youtuber Macabre storytelling? I found it very interesting.
Yes! I think the takes are fresh in a subject where the topics have been done to death. I loved the video on tywin
This was immediately where my brain went when we got the Hodor reveal. Love it!
This channel has the best theories and analysis about the GoT world!!!
Congrats on your first sponsor!
I'm so glad to see you are getting more known!😘🖤
Please let us know where you think jon snow ends up in asoiaf you did a video on yng Griff and dany what about jon
Yeah, I think a lot of people forget that Bloodraven is one of the bastard sons of Aegon IV, as you said, so of course he would be obsessed with keeping House Targaryen in power. And he has the magical to keep himself alive, being over two hundred years old. But he's also known in history as a horrible tyrant who turned Westeros into a corrupt police state while he served as Hand of the King.
I liked your presentation. It's definitely an interesting possibility.
Amazing channel and ideas, thank you! I wanted to 'come back' into asoiaf and after binge watching all of your videos I'm so curious to reread it as an adult!
Yaaay your first sponsor
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I've been shot down by people about this but I was like if someone could project their mind into bodies like that the was the mad king mad? What actions where influenced by bloodraven?!?! I've been saying this too!!
My favourite theory was that Bloodraven is an agent of the Children of the Forest and pruned the Targaryens and reduced their numbers to create Axhor Hai and save the realm. He did the Harrenhal tragedy and other events.
how would he do the harrenhal tragedy? it seemed to be a political event during a conquest. Do you mean summerhall?
@@stars-and-clouds Ah my bad. I meant Summerhall.
How did he do that? Well a woods witch was present at Summerhall. It’s speculated she was a children of the Forrest species. And we know Bloodraven works with CoF people. Not too far fetched to think that operative at HH did something fishy which caused the fire and elimination of many Targs.
@@daddy_1453 hmm I think you're onto something. I wouldn't put it past him.
Makes me wonder why a blackfyre/targaryen would be against a ritual that was supposed to bring dragons back
Given the fact that the ending of Agot was basically the mutual annihilation of Dragon riders and the White Walkers, it's perfectly possible that bloodravens goal shifted from being a targaryen Stan to using them instrumentally to mutually destroy the Others and Dragons.
Dragons are highly dangerous and I doubt the Children want them around any more than they want Others around.
I always thought that Bloodraven was telling Bran that by trying to influence the past, he would create his current present situation, which seems to bear out with Hodor. I believe that’s what Bloodraven was saying when he told Bran that he couldn’t change the past.
Total side question, but where do you stand on the idea that Crastor is Bloodravens kid? And that Bloodraven is orcustrating or t least carrying on the existing tradition of giving young to the Others??
All this Bloodraven talk had me thing on that 🤔
Also congrats on the sponsor!! Looking very youtube professional over here! 😎
I'm with Justin N. in the sense that Bloodraven and his current location/situation/etc. would not be the case if Aegon hadn't invaded in the first place, so I don't think this works. It might be what GRRM ends up doing, but it still simply doesn't work. There has to be a beginning to the time loop.
Yeah I could totally be wrong and this is definitely tin foil territory, but to be fair, plenty of time travel stories like The Terminator or 12 Monkeys are basically a similar ouroboros-style loop of the beginning only happening because of the end, and a lot of time travel narratives feature the same self-sustaining cycle where the beginning is the end and the end is the beginning.
Nope, not in a causal loop narrative there doesn't have to be a beginning.
I don't see a time loop as only possibility. Maybe small scale but Martin writes magic to have consequence so magic isn't too op and ruins the story. So for example we have the best magic users ever in valeryia and then the doom happens. With bran we get the Hodor thing, with Targaryen it's possible their own blood is their downfall. The children make the night king then that backfires on so many levels. Warging can get one stuck in their animals. Everyone who ever messed with time majority were isolated and they had some magic limits. And if one didn't mind fact magic had a price then I suppose I shouldn't bring the faceless men into this. But if it were only a time loop it'd break magic rule and story believability if too many time loops piled up in the universe. I mean for arguments sake, let's say it's all about bran, bran is op, why not just make bran special and have him be some incarnation of the son that started the empire of the dawn. Also the targ prophecy on the 3 headed dragon.... Targs arnt gods, they never were. The targaryens come from a place where magic was common, thus in that context they arnt any more special than other magic users, only difference is most of them have dragons but no magic in their blood as not all targs are dragon dreamers. I'm hypothesizing the awesome mages from the early era had some innate magic as well as magic artifacts etc. Westeros had own magic for example warging
This is absolutely a fun theory to explore!
Ahh just missed it...
Oh LOL no worries you missed nothing, I just accidentally hit premiere instead of publish.
So on the valarians having and the others. Ever heard of the broken pact andals cased the long night, Then covered it up theory?
Love you delving into the arcane content. Here’s a strange question. What do you think Sansa will do and where will she be during the Long Night?
I think the theory of Bloodraven luring Bran to him so he can take over his body is interesting as well - "It's time for you to become me" sounds more ominous with that theory in mind, but then again you would think that he'd just take over the body immediately. Not to mention, why bother with Bran if he keeps his powers, just take anyone who is young and strong - although, Bran has the Stark family name so it could be that.
If Bloodraven has been watching Bran (and we have every reason to believe he has) then it seems perfectly plausible that he realises that telling Bran NOT to do something (like climbing the walls of Winterfell) is not going to dissuade him from doing it - if anything, it will push him to do it more. Even if Bloodraven knew Bran would break Hodor's mind, he is absolutely the type to accept that as the price of pushing Bran into achieving the impossible, or at least Abominable (it seems easier for Bran to control Hodor's mind, however forbidden such an action is meant to be).
Changing the past is super easy. Barely inconvenience.
If Bloodraven, a Targaryen by blood, is the creator of House Targaryen, won't that create a massive paradox?
It shouldn't because as himself he's not the founder of house Targaryen, he only came from house targaryen
The three-eyed raven is definitely has an alternative motive…..The children of the forest FORCEFULLY made the Night King and the three eyed raven at the same time but that’s never explained I want to know why
I love blood raven he's a character I would love to see him appear in a spinoff series
I love your video and your ideas about time travelling from a weirwood throne. However, after reading Fire and Blood, I started thinking that the time manipulation was happening from a weirwood throne under the Isle of Faces. I will not name the person sitting on this throne but based on how the dance of the dragons chapters ends, you can guess who I am talking about.
What do you think?
You think it's daemon after all that time? I think it's the other guy born around same time as shiera
@@AshePBlack Haha my theory is a lot of tin foil. However, I suppose I am saying Blood Raven is not the first Targaryen to sit on a weirwood throne in a cave. Daemon's body was never found. In GRRM's world, that means there is a good chance he is not dead.
We do know there is something magical happening on the Isle of faces, and that's where the dragon fight happens. BLood Raven's time is 50 years after TDOD but he and Daemon have a lot in common. They are both well versed in Targaryen history and customs. They are also both very loyal to the Targaryen family, and they seemed to be magical. That song Daemon sang to Vermithor was very magical. Daemon is magical, but he does not seem to not know it. Or he does not believe it.
I suppose we will find out in 5 or 6 years :-( It takes so long to film this stuff.
Daenys the Dreamer, too?
Well interestingly, Bloodraven actually DOES mention that Bran will be able to go far beyond the weirwood network once his powers are developed, so it wouldn't surprise me if Bloodraven is capable of influencing the Targaryens even before they left Essos, especially since theoretically he should have a blood connection to both the First Men magic and Valyrian magic.
If you wanna get really wacky... In the world of Ice and Fire theres like blue inverse wierwoods that teh wine of worlocks comes from and theres a thought its like all teh same powers so.. if you follow the theory a true Greenseer could roam the globe in theory... but like its all kinda out there, for me at least I have yet to dive in and check it out beyond a Joe Magican video lol
Bran affecting hodor in the past kinda proves the 3 eyed raven right. Yes he was able to go in to hodor in the past and control him in the present but all he did to the past version of hodor was give him brain damage and it didn't even change the past. Hodor had always been like that so its a case of "what ever happened happened" to quote Lost.
I think Time Travel has a lot to do with the Targaryens, but not, especially with Bran and his Storyline. Someone on the Internet reminded me that GRRM once called Bran a King of Kings, which is actually some kind of God in most Religions' real and fictional Worlds. And then I thought about the Visions in the House of the Undying, where Daenerys actually time travels herself in some way.
In the House of the Undying Daenerys gets a Prophecy, which is actually always a mystical Warning in the World of Ice and Fire, although it depends on who the Prophecy hears. For Example, the old Prophecy of the Stallion who mounts the World is interpreted as something good for the Dothraki, but for people like Miri Maaz Duur, it is a warning of a very dark Age. So when Daenerys gets a Prophecy it is a warning for her, although not for everybody. Interestingly enough the 3 Heads of the Dragon are mentioned in that Prophecy.🤔 A Prophecy in ASOIAF is always built in the same manner, first what happens a.k.a. the Warning itself, then the Warning how it will come to happen, at least the Hope for the Outsider. That being said, when a Prophecy was made before the Story, like with the Stallion who mounts the World, we don't have the full Prophecy, only what the People who interpret it as something good for them, sounds good. The same goes for Azor Ahai, where we only know that he will come and what will tell everybody he is back, but not the Costs, only the very ominous warning about darkness. I mean if the Red Priests want their Saviour to be followed it won't sound good that he will kill again his Wife, pretty sure every available Bachelorette would run away from that possible Saviour.
If the Prophecy in the House of the Undying is a Warning and that is a place where Time doesn't flow as Bloodraven says, maybe the 3 Treasons Daenerys will know and learns about in that House and her Prophecy, maybe these Treasons did already happen. And it doesn't mean Treason that is committed against Daenerys, but these Treasons brought her into the Position in which she is now. And who could help to find that out better than a Time travelling Boy? And Daenerys already has Dreams where People who don't belong in her Head visit her, maybe Bran and Bloodraven will be there too at some Point.
I’m a bit confused about your Hodor comment. Why would Blood Raven care about Hodor? As I understand it, Bran “died inside the tree” as Meera said. I thought Bran died and the consciousness of blood raven took over his body. He had to “become the 3 eyed raven”. He told Jamie he was no longer bran stark. Which is why he is such a weirdo now. Or have I grossly misunderstood what happened to Bran for the passed 6 years?
I have to think Dany will fight the ice threat at some ppoint, jsut because she is a living fire magic person. I thought once that John would balance her - he is both ice and fire - but death changes things and Jon will only be able to balance her by killing her - maybe causing her to kill him. Or maybe he'll just run north and live as an ice zombie of sorts for a few years. Cold preserves. Jon as the next Coldhands?
They needed to pick a more menacing actor for Blood Raven if they wanted to take him from freaky tree wizard to, well, the book Three Eyed Raven. Only people who know the books will understand how in character it is for him to mastermind his entire family and use/sacrifice thousands, maybe millions of lives for his "greater good." It also makes sense in the books for Blood Raven have some kind of connection to Euron's whole apocalypse thing which is why both of those plots just sputtered out on the show.
Max Von Sydow is a legit legend though and based on his prior body of work I can totally see the vibe they were going for with Bloodraven.
@@HillsAliveYT On the show, Max von Sydow, as the Three Eyed Raven, says he has been in the weirwood tree for 1,000 years.
Brynden Rivers aka Bloodraven was a contemporary of Maester Aemon, Aegon V and Duncan the Tall. In addition the very name Bloodraven partly came from his physical appearance which the Von Sydow character did not have.
Am I missing something? Why is everyone calling the TV show 3 Eyed Raven Bloodraven when it’s clearly not the same character?
Is the euron apocalypse thing related to uncle euron greyjoy? Or wrong guy? Also lots did fizzle in the show
Bran was infected by the night king when he grabbed his arm. After the night king was killed his spirit went into Bran and now Bran is a half 3 eyed Raven and half Night King.
I'm not sure if I think Bloodravem has been manipulating time in this way, because I think the true origin and ultimate purpose of the Targaryens is related to the GotD and the primal balance of magic within the world. Bloodraven might have become aware of that purpose through his investigations, but I'm more inclined to believe that Daenys and Aegon had visions simply because they have strongly magical blood that lets them see past the illusion of time the way the weirwoods do.
I do think that Bran will likely discover some way of manipulating time, but probably only in places near weirwoods or their cousin Shade of the Evening trees, meaning his interference will be instrumental but highly limited
blood raven might be the sole reason George can’t finish the books. Time travel is always a tedious path.
Yes because Martin doesn't want time travel to break rules of magic. Although unless blood raven or 3 eyed Raven is awesome old old velaryian mage he can't break story. All the supposedly awesome got characters when placed in proper eras actually become less extraordinary. Like compare dany to Targaryen elders, she's not that unique, everything was timing
@@AshePBlack good points👌🏽💯
I don’t like how these videos end with maybe this is all just a coincident and it doesn’t matter
No Conquest = no Shiera, so needs must right?
Historical counterpart of bloodraven?
Well, there is one thing that makes me doubt that the purpose of the time travel is to create the Targaryen dynasty, and that is the danger of altering the past in such a way that you are never born. If I was time travelling I would never dare to influence the past before my birth, because often it would take such a small change to delete yourself out of existence.
I imagine he might have influenced things in his own lifetime, maybe he got himself sent to the wall perhaps. Maybe he manipulated things so that Bran was born etc.
tell them about jojen paste!!
If this is true. For Jon to be, Bloodraven needed to interfere. Jon's Targaryeness is important for he needs it, to be born.
The final season of Game of Thrones was lazily written. Bran Stark could have his powers as the Three-Eyed Raven to travel back in time and stop the Children of the Forest from creating The White Walkers. The Three-Eyed Raven creating the Targaryen's is very interesting but doesn't make much sense.
The 3 eye raven didn't make Targaryen unless he was from valeryia and did the blood magic to make the 40 dragonlord families
Character in the show is not Bloodraven. In the cave when he meets Bran for the first time, he said that he was "waiting for 1000y", that's way before Bloodraven. Also, if Bloodraven went back in time to create Targaryens wouldn't that be a causality loop paradox because he is also a Targaryen? So..he created himself down the line...makes no sense.
The children and blood raven didn't make the targaryens. 40 dragonlord families were made via blood magic in Valeria, that's nothing to do with the children. Warging and some magic the children have is not in esos bloodlines. The dragonlords were either in part of dawn empire era or a lil afterwards. Targaryens don't technically warg their dragons, it's a blood thing. Also in got Danny didn't get dragons by using souls of ancestors
@@AshePBlack Well, I know he didn't. I'm answering why it would be impossible. This video was supporting that not me, don't know why you are telling me all this. But main thing is, and most ignore this when going on and on about blood raven, he is not in the show. Character played in the show is something else, and if its him then show completely changed the lore and who blood raven is. Timetables don't align.
If Bran and Bloodraven wind up being Eren and Zeke Yeager influencing Grisha's memories as the Attack Titan via the Paths, imma lose it, and NOT in a good way
I think its Bran at the centre. He's incredibly powerful, and has already travelled through time. Bran's older self travels back to stop the apocalypse
The story isn't all all about bran, it seems more all about the Targaryen, based on Martin interviews
Now I want Game of Thrones adapted by the creators of Dark... and in German too, why not.
The grandfather paradox! If Blooraaven interfer the slightest with the Targaryen history, he might not be born at all. And if he caused the Targaryen invasion, he was already born an therfore the Targ invasion was already a fact.
@Hill's Alive Or do you think it is a number of different parallel timelines?
SLAY!!!!
I think that when Bloodraven says you cannot change the past, he means that the history is already written in stone. And anything that Bran does in the past, already has happened. So he's not changing the past, he's creating his timeline.
If you were able to change the past, you would very easily might change something that causes you to never be born and then how can you change the past if you are never born? So I think that Bran going into the past is how it always has been. Like in Nolans newest movie Tenet. You can't change the past but you can learn from it.
If you were able to change the past, you must also create multiverses everytime you change something. I don't think that's how GRRM rolls.
Watch Avengers Endgame and how they explain time travel. They definitely went into different universes. One universe where Loki ends up in his own TV Show, one where Captain America reunites with Peggy. And then they return to their universe, never having anything change
I think the past is the past is strictly the truth. Nothing Bloodraven could do would make his ghosts hear him. But Bloodraven doesn't know that his beloved brother once heard a whisper in the trees saying his name, it was something you could never know until you travel back
I’m saying this, the dragon has three heads meaning the dragon, will have three separate conscious entities merged into one. Jons body is in the perfect position to do this.
It sounds more like remote viewing than time travel. Ya know?
Okay, my mind is blown away right now. Also, this got me thinking about Viserys’ dream (Viserys I, about a son that will be his heir), like, how does it align with Bloodraven’s tailoring of Targaryens’ dreams? Idk if this is far fetched
Because essentially, Viserys realized that chasing of the dream is what killed Aemma. And this realization, or rather, *interpretation* cemented him in the decision to stick with Rhaenyra as heir. Like, is it possible that Bloodraven had in mind these complex psychological effects of the aftermath of the dream? As some comments have stated, Bloodraven might not have had the long term consequences of his interpolations in mind. If so, what was the short-sighted motivation behind this particular dream? Abolishing the misogynistic worldview from the majority of people lol just kidding, but I am hooked on the implications of this theory now
Also, the question stands if Vicerys’ dream is the cannon, and not just in the HotD (I just started Fire&Blood so not sure)
Edit: Just found out that apparently the dream doesn't relate specifically to Vicerys and Aemma's son, but to Vicerys and Alicent's
Except the high tower targs lose and reneryah bloodline goes on
First of all, I doubt Bloodraven would intervene with anything before his conception I think Bloodraven did not cause the Targaryen Dynasty In Westeros, but his predecessor might have. Also, I prefer Bran manipulating the past as described by Preston Jacobs in his Time Traveling Bran series.
Yeah, Preston's ideas are really interesting!
Nope, I don't think so. This would be too much of a "closed loop" which doesn't really seem to be GRRMs style
So why didnt Blood Raven stop the Dance of the Dragon
My guess is he wanted some people dead. He was loyal to house Targaryen but he manipulated bloodlines. An alternative theory is maybe ultimate goal is get rid of dragons and others, which actually based on dragon lore isn't a horrible idea. The children created the night king, dragons and dragon lords were created, end them solves some issues. But then you still got the maesters and high towers issue which is too much magic sets off a doom. And I'm guessing high towers use old velaryian magics so...
I think this is philosophical but Bloodraven believes that the past can't be changed because when you change the past, it was already made to happen - the original timeline and the changing of it. Bran changed Hodor into what he became in the past but it did not matter since Hodor was meant to become like that anyway. So in essence, the past is past whether there was changes to it or not.
George Martin has confirmed the House of the Dragon dream
What did you mean by Targaryn's going mad possibly due to "inbreeding & entitlement"?
I understand the inbreeding part, that is basic biology/genetics...
What does entitlement have to do with mental illness?
I'm very intrigued by many of your takes, agree with some, disagree with others.
I have noticed what might be considered personal bias in some of your opinions though, just through some of the words you choose to use, that really don't fit the idea.
Also, on this topic, you are diving into a strange time loop paradox... I did find it weird what happens to Hodor and since the show hasn't always been faithful to source material, somethings can be tossed up to taking too much license with material.
That being said... for Bloodraven to instigate the Targaryn's move to Westeros, then he would need to have knowledge he wouldn't have, because he didn't exist, but if he did exist, then he wouldn't be a Targaryn, or he did exist in another form, or...
This is why I hate time travel in fantasy, it is messy and just creates more narrative problems than it solves.
Anyway, pretty good content... I know I'm catching your videos long after they were created, but mostly enjoyable nonetheless.
You're probably right but we can more accurately assume he's manipulating the future. Making sure that certain people get married and have children. Jon snow for instance.
Bran is going to be a Green king - after all that blood to pay for life there will be life - green life- and Spring.
I really personally unless it's cannon cannot go with any everything is a time travel loop. My reasoning is laws of magic, which is in westeros, magic use has huge consequences. If if it's true that the doom on velaryian happened because over use of magic, then time magic would break universe or at least everything the 3 eye raven ever touched. Second of my points is that even 3 eyed Raven couldn't change everything in history, I mean if it were that easy, bran would prolly save his whole family. I think the original 3 eyed Raven would still do his thing to house Targaryen. On a diff note the Targaryen situation is odd because prior to their existence the world could have done with our them. But by got era I guess only Targaryen can be heros. I mean dragons are great I guess but old velaryia had magic seemingly unparalleled. This is what happens when knowledge and magic or whatever isn't passed on. I mean to use a got example, greyscale had no real cure till sam found it in a book and tried it. Who had that book, and who tried to forbid curing grey scale? Then you had a handful of high towers hoarding stuff, by time there's Otto and alicent they arnt particularly extraordinary. And it seems starks and Targaryen would rather take prophecy to graves because they think only they can save world. I give starks a pass because they are always moral to end, to a fault even
This positions Bloodraven as the fantasy story equivalent to the AI in Roko's Basilisk - altering the past to ensure it's invention in the future.
it was the most pointless thing ever. after all that traveling and training and journeying up north all bran does with it is mentally cripple winterfell's stable boy, a character who has zero impact on the plot, and tell Sam information he already knew. as much as i love hodor, in the show he doesnt add anything.
that would be like cersei invading the north with the intention of killing Sansa or Jon and but she doesnt find them there because theyre in White Harbor rallying the north so instead Cersei just kills Old Nan and heads back south. like okay thats sad i guess but that is not going to affect ANYTHING. an absolutely pointless death just for the sake of being a bummer.
I just don’t understand why everyone is so hell bent on jon being a Targaryen it has yet to be confirmed I’m not saying I don’t think he is but Jesus y’all are stuck on it at least let George speak on it but I could be wrong and he has😂
Minor point: not all the magical conspiracies are pointing Daenerys to the wall and more importantly war. Quaithe, seemingly part of the “Starry eyed women cult” but in reality has broken from them, is telling Daenerys to go the opposite way to ?Ashshai?. It’s clues connected to Cat about Rob and therefore mother’s about their kids going to war, point being Quaithe is Ashara and Daenerys’ mother. Also noting all the people Quaithe warns Daenerys about are “war mongers” that will bring her to Westeros for the crown and the throne. Much like Cat and the Baratheon brothers, Quaithe is trying to prevent family in fighting between Aegon(young Griff) and Daenerys; especially since Ashara knows Aegon is trueborn (sorta not in reality for different reasons than fans think, but it’s complicated) and Daenerys is not (less complicated , but still messy definition particularly for the average Westerosi Noble). Quaithe likely believes that Daenerys, if she sits the throne, will have to give up her life either in death or marriage to the Nightking, or sacrifice her daughter to the others; in any case: Quaithe doesn’t want the for her daughter or her granddaughter hence leading Daenerys away from the throne and the wall letting Aegon’s line be sacrificed like the Septa Lemore’s (Tanner’s wife) son Pisswater Prince, who was actually killed by the Kingsguard to save Aegon and Rhaenys not Gregor and his men.
I think Bloodraven says the past cannot be changed because any attempt to do so is futilistic. Yes Bran created Hodor. But Hodor already existed. So he was always going to create Hodor. There was no other possible path.
If true, this is Attack on Titan tier ability.
Or rather, Attack on Titan copied GRRM in this regard?