Timber Frame vs Conventional Stick Frame - Pt. 2 (A Follow-Up Video)
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- Опубліковано 20 вер 2024
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In 2019, we posted a video where Pat compared and contrasted Timber Framing vs. Stick Framing. That video now has over ONE MILLION views, and nearly 1,500 comments!
Based on some of that constructive criticism, we decided to have Pat back on camera to further explain the advantages and disadvantages of both stick framing and timber framing, and we hope this video helps to answer your questions when comparing the two framing systems.
Take Your First (FREE!) Step Into Timber Framing with our Online Mini Course - tinyurl.com/u4ty9nm
We have taught thousands of ordinary people how to build their own timber frame structure, starting with raw timbers & ending with a beautiful 24' x 24' structure. Also check out our 5-day, in-person intensive Purely Post-And-Beam class - shelterinstitute.com/course_offerings
Do you build in Texas?
I am clearly not the only person impressed by quietly spoken articulate intelligence. The man is a magnet. Well done.
Bro he knows what he is talking about...that how sounds a people who know his job
I'm not gonna lie, if I could have a second dad I would pick this man.
Right 😄
LoL
Your point about all different construction types having their own place, advantages, and disadvantages is so true. I’ve heard veterans from Afghanistan comment on how ceramic mud hut style construction was so strong that it deflected high caliber rounds when used for cover when an American stock framed house with siding & drywall wouldn’t even slow down rounds. While it wasn’t an intentional feature for the hundreds of not thousands of years that people have used that construction method, it’s a testament to how strong it is for that environment. If it wasn’t working well, then people wouldn’t keep using it. It Japanese temple construction using mostly soft woods wasn’t effective and long lasting in their climate, then they wouldn’t keep doing it. Thanks for the great content and for spreading knowledge.
хахахахахаха про Афганистан очень смешно.
Something you learn in engineering design is that stiffness does NOT ALWAYS equal strength. While it may be able to stop a round, drag from high winds could cause it to crack instead of flex in the wind.
First video literally made me want to sign up for the class and go to Maine. This just makes me want to do it even more.
i would go to maine but i die in cold
@@AbyssEyes02 wear warm clothes and a heavy coat :)
Yes that’s what happened to me, signed up after that first video 🤣😂
Same!
I think one of the best reasons to build timber frame over stick is if you have an existing woodlot with plenty of trees useable for timber. The practicality of building everything with hand tools as a 1 man operation is the only reason I need. The fact that they are much better to look at is an obvious plus.
This should be taught in all schools
I didn’t see any need for you to clarify the old video, I did however watch the entire thing because I have yet to see you guys put out anything less than excellent. All your views, and more, are well deserved. Keep up the great work all and thank you for sharing.
Exactly what I thought. But in fact Pat just knocked down every question one by one in his own quiet, articulate way.
Don’t be shy Pat, please continue. Tell us more. It’s only midnight. I have time.
I love old blokes sharing their wisdom.
8:23 "I was 19 when I was married and she was 21" Yes sir playa. Great videos. Learned a lot even though I'm not a builder or ever been in a wooden frame house.
Fantastic mini instructional lectures - Pat is incredibly knowledgeable and comes across as a nice person. 10/10
Thank you for watching and for the kind words!
I didn't think you were pushing timber over stick at all. I felt informed! But I'm glad viewers prompted a second video on the subject because I love education!
If I was younger…this so appeals to me. There is a new, huge plant opening in my area that makes the walls for these. It is very exciting to see what you’re doing.
Love both your videos on this subject. Wouldn't worry about the haters/complainers. Was always a believer in the old adage "Stop Trying To Be Good At Many Things, And Focus On Mastering One". Shelter institute seems to have master Timber frame. No need to apologize. Keep on.
It makes me so happy to see another contractor using sips as part of of their construction methodology.
My company builds net-zero, green built homes in the Pacific Northwest btw. I’d really love to see our company start using timber framing in conjunction with sips. Showcasing timber, and the craft that goes into making those kinds of joins has always appealed to me, as a carpenter.
Can sips be green? I mean with all the glue and plastic in them I am leaning toward hay bale or adobe or shiplap..
@@smolboyi build however you see fit. The proof is in the envelope. There are lots of ways to build green homes, and one of the methods involve SIPS. If you don’t like the idea of poly styrene, and OSB because of their carbon footprint, I’d also look into other ways to offset your overall carbon footprint. Certainly the largest carbon footprint in any home is concrete. Odds are that the carbon footprint of most modern slab on grade foundations is equal to or greater than the entirety of the shell of the structure. There are ways around using concrete in foundations, but even earth ships use heaps of concrete.
@Tac0caT0 oh... well you're absolutely right, I really just don't want the osb because I believe it off-gasses.
Of course making the building low impact on the environment is a goal too, but I just want to avoid plastics, and still have a nicely sealed building.
@@smolboyi OSB off gasses VOC’s gradually, that’s true. Though any concrete sealer/finish, interior latex paint, subfloor adhesive, silicone sealants, polyurethane window caulking vastly outweigh the amount of off gassing OSB will have released while it’s either hanging out in a bunk, or in the walls of your home. Not to say OSB doesn’t off gas, but if you want to minimize VOC off gassing I’m your home, there are plenty of other products to avoid. Vinyl windows off gas, as does all of the plastic in every one of your modern home appliances.
@@Tac0caT0 thank you 🙏🏼
I will try not to use any of those haha
Makes me want to travel to the US just to learn from this guy! Great work! :)
We are building out timber frame or post frame this year. You are so helpful and have been a big help putting me at ease about the whole process. Please please do more videos! THESE ARE AMAZING!
Thank you for teaching me something new. I’m currently doing some research about different type of buildings. Timber frame has peaked my interest. These houses really do look amazing
You folks are fantastic, keep loving life and what you do, ignore all the crazies out there on the web we live in a different twilight zone now....May God Bless you and your Family .
Woo, Pat is glowing! He looks younger, healthier, more energetic than last year video. He is so handsome 😜 that is distracting me to hear what he was saying!!! I didn’t have that problem in his last year video 😅! By the way I took their online class, love it! This is a Exceptional group of teachers, have lots good things to offer!
U built a timber frame at 19 wow, u are so wise i think u should document more of ur experience and life wisdom in videos such as this because u are a amazing guy they just dont make them like they used to type of guy
This is such a great video, wish there was something like this in australia. You are an inspiration
And thanks for the extra info. I love how you just know what you're talking about you're not staring at q cards
One day I will build another house and it will be a timber frame. This one is traditional and after 5 years I’m already seeing things I don’t like. Where I live timber frame homes 150 years old are still standing having been abandoned many years ago. Stick frame homes that have been abandoned for 10 years are already falling in. That says a lot!
Honestly, timber frame really is superior. Less materials used, quicker construction, stronger structure, better insulation. And you can still have hidden framing just like with stick framing by using interior drywall.
I know im late, but in "stick framing, as yall call it, we do "staggered studs." Two rows of offset studs lead to no gaps in insulation.
Thanks for both the first and this video. Really enjoyed these & now subscribe to this channel. Take good care, stay safe and well.
Thank you so much, I am in love with timber frames and your channel is a god send
Timberframes are amazing with or without sips. I'd prefer without SIPs. After the frame is up and braced. We Ballon frame a 2x6 exterior shell that sits on a "brick" ledge. This is blocked per fire code in between floors. For 2 stories a horizontal board perpendicular to the Ballon frame is attached to the wall studs.(interior side) This is in between the vertical posts at floor height for fastening to the main structure. It also is fastened at the base and at the timber frame top plate.
The Ballon frame gets your house wrap insulation and 2 inches of foam in the form of offset 1 inch sheets. No sheathing is require because your timberframe is braced and the is attached to the frame. Some areas may benefit from a Simpson steel "let in" brace at corners.
It can come out to alot cheaper than SIPS but it all depends on labor rate for the area. For the plumbers, electricians and finishers, It takes a timberframe and makes the premise the same as a conventional build.
Can you recommend any videos that depict this methodology? I'm interested
@@MrGwizyadig no videos out there that I know of. I've thought about starting a channel to get the word out. Next project I get I will.
Though if you have an interest in it. Its super simple. The only tricky part is the topplate/the overhangs.
There's 2 ways to do this. Its very obvious on thhe old Gambrel barns 1890-1900s the first steep pitch is terminated into the top plate. Then you notch the toplate and set a 2x6 rafter tail inside the notch at the desire angle. Nail it to the top plate and sistered it to the rafter. That rafter tail can get set to match the pitch of the roof or at a different angle. The 2x6 exterior wall will come up just below that overhang. It will plane in with the bottom side of you raftertail Depending on pitch the rafter tail may need a slight birdsmouth where it meets the wall.
The other style is toward a hybrid method of framing. I'll cut my 2x6 or 2x8 rafters with a birds mouth for the top plate and a slight one for the 2x6.
In both these methods I but a Frothpak to spray foam that area.
The exposed 2x6 or 2x8 in a timberframe roof still look great! Plan on having 8x8 main beam but the 2x lumber inbetween. If you do a tongue and groove exposed deck and foam over. YOU HAVE TO OFFSET YOUR FOAM JOINTS!
Otherwise air will leak at the seams and rot it all. Joe Lstiburek has some very good lectures on air leakage. SIPs were notorious for this before they started foam inbetween the joist before install.
@@MrVodkaJohn Please do, that would be quite interesting.
Timber frame IS the way to go folks. Shelter Institute provide EVERY detail of assistance anyone would need. You provide the $ and the muscle,, they provide the rest. Now get out there and DO IT 🙂
The first video was great. Thanks for the follow up, too. Great job 👍
This man speaks softly yet wields large timber.
I must take exception to your statements that all construction systems are valid. There's some absolute crap being sold by builders today, with 2x3 framing, plastic plumbing, and vertical mulch all over the place.
Super thank you for part 2. Keep at it Pat & Shelter. Make another part about interior finishing options if you anyone does like gypsum panels for consistency in some portions of the house, like say, kitchens.
You, sir, are fantastic. Thank you for sharing your experience and expertise.
This is a great video demonstrating the many advantages stick frame has over timber. Wait a minute. Strike that. Reverse it.
Just messing around with my 1st comment. I own a timber frame farm house, and would love to add a great room onto my home using this technique. I have plenty of trees, and with lumber prices through the roof, what better time to do this. Like my grandfather always told me " if you ain't rich, you better be handy!"
Nice one grandad.
Excellent content. I am curious of your thoughts on the use of wood paneling on the interior as opposed to drywall, and what considerations that would entail.
i'm having a timber frame built and i thought about walls alot. in my view wood paneling takes away from the visual effect of the timber frame. i'm having Douglas Fir for the interior and the white pine for the frame with treated white pine on the ceilings of the loft and main room cathedral. it's a 24'x36' Hennin Hammer Beam Truss design. i don't want wall panels to take away from the grace and beauty of the timber frame; it's the main attraction, the star of the show and the reason for the build.
You should not have to explain yourself you gave a great description and explanation of each style. It helped me a lot with a garage I was working on. Only place I could find anything on it and screw anybody else who thinks you need to change what they thought was an opinion.
Thanks for the awesome talk.
Thank you for your knowledgeable posts and obvious love for your trade. There will always be haters so don't mind them. May God bless you for your work and knowledge that you so kindly and eloquently spread.
Thank you,sir!
Really good explanation and details. I would always go for timber frame to be honest, there is much more beauty and robustness.
Stick frame became popular due quick construction expansion and need of houses in the US. While timber frame needs skills to cut mortices and tenons, stick frame only requires the ability to hammer things down
Another great video! Thank you so very much for your knowledge and detailed explanations.
I love this - wish I could do this in France!
great video, thank you
Your information influenced my decision! Thank you!
I just asked a question on the first video a year ago and I live in Maine! I think my wife and I would be interested in the class.
I'm from MA. If I build a house, seriously considering taking this class!
Oh wow I didn’t notice that you are from Maine. I’ve been looking for Post and Beam builds and you guys are actually from Maine too! I definitely want to take the courses now, we are trying to build a post and beam in Androscoggin county!
Great video. What’s your thoughts on the timber frame hybrid homes that have become popular?
Thanks
Love all your videos! Thanks! I want one on my land!
How are the timbers attached to the subfloor when you are building on a basement? All I see are being built on slabs using ancor brackets.
(JF) I love timber frame structures and that's enough for me.
Building codes are there for a reason. The same wind sheer that hits one frame hits the other.
Anchoring and nail pattern matter. Even the shape and size of the nail head makes a difference.
California like many other states have unique codes due to different factors. Such as liquefaction, average wind speed, elevation, and rainfall amounts.
Maybe you should stick to Building in Maine. Where the codes are apparently more to your liking.
I am inspired by your story of you and your wife building a timber frame
Great video . Thank you .
Here it's common to have the Amish to come to the property, cut and mill the lumber and build on-site.
I would like more education on cost. Doing research on log home, timber frame and conventional builds, it seems that the first two are the most expensive. What am I missing in my research?
Excellent
Thank you for watching!
I'm planning to build an A frame cabin in the woods this summer on unrestricted land...I'm trying to find the best and easiest way to frame it......I'm glad I found this but I'm still gonna need more help
"Wood is quite inexpensive now" - that didn't age well. :)
You would be entirely impressed at how cheap rough sawn timber’s are at your local lumber mill. He’s right, there’s no shortage of trees. For a porch addition, I recently bought 6x6s and 6x8s in 20’ lengths for $29 and $36. Spitball some math off that
still cheaper compared to the other materials
Great Info! Thanks!
Sips are for mainly for the time & cost benefit of the developer/contractor ...for the end user, not so much.
Can you please put the link to the first video you did as well. (the one you did a year ago)? Excellent channel. Thank you!!!
I'm curious about those cable raceways you mentioned. You called them "base way"? Can you clarify what this item is and where it can be purchased?
The faster you can get a certificate of occupancy, the faster you close on that construction loan and turn it into a long term loan. Big savings.
Mendocino Woodlands has some amazing redwood timber frame buildings, all redwood built in the 1930s by the CCC.
This guy is awesome!
How much extra cost would be added for a hypoallergenic option without SIP, without plywood or particle board of any sort, and using inert insulation that does not off-gas?
Please compare with the segal methods. What is alike and what is diffrent?
Longer videos please. Recommend 1 hour in length.
hahaha their online course has TWELVE HOURS of video content if you can't get enough Shelter.
Can you build a timber frame with ICF walls?
My build site is 9500ft in colorado so i want to build a passive home and use 12” thick SIPS for roof insulation.
That means I need a concrete slab to warm with the sun and then the mass of the walls and floor retain the heat long into the evening
How much Variability do you you have in your designs? Do you have Floor Plans and Elevations to view?
I’ve noticed that timber frame structures don’t have rafter ties or collar ties. Is there no need to prevent widening/expansion on timber frames? If not, is that because of how the rafters are connected?
I was a stick framer, but love timberframe.
Great video and information
I'd come to you in a heartbeat if you were based in Australia!
I want to do a timber frame on my land in Utah where do I start?
Consider our online timber framing course! You can watch a short session for free to help determine if it will be the right fit for you! onlinecourses.shelterinstitute.com/courses/purely-post-beam-online-course
chunky timbers, massive chisels, big hammers....... yes......sounds like lots of fun!!
My Friend, you are legitimate……A google comment section is NOT. It’s a tar pit!
I am a Timber Framer, Electrician, Automation Specialist……
If you fail to plan…you plan to fail no matter the trade. You have exponentially more random hurdles in your typical dog legged lumber build….imho.
You're right regarding the construction of stick frame / timber frame ratio. I've been in the industry since 75, and in those years I've built 2 log cabins, 7 timber frames, and I don't know how many stick framed houses. That said, you're wrong about the time to construct them. You are only discussing the time to stand them and comparing that to the entire time to construct a stick frame house. In my youth I worked on a couple of tracts standing cracker boxes. We were a 3 man team standing 3 - 4 houses a day stick framing. In your defense, we were working on tract houses and our kits came from the truss yard with precut headers, trimmers, sills and cripples so we were only standing them on a mono slab.
Another thing I think you overlook is the skill necessary to make the cuts in timber frames. That skill level is beyond the skill of the average carpenter. Most carpenters don't even know what a mortising bit is, let alone how to use one. I had better luck just going with hangers, blind and normal, than I did trying to teach guys how to make a shoulder cut with a mortise and tenon that would pull in the structure together without bolts. Just the puzzled looks I got when I mentioned corbels told me all I needed to know about the team I was working with. All but 1 of my timber frames was also built out of glulam's.
However, we're now working with CLT which I think is significant. Maybe you can try incorporating those panels into your timber frames in the future. They look great and are quite sound.
Either way, luck and have fun.
Rio Branco Acre Brasil
Timber is beautiful.
Seems like with modern technology and machinery the timber frame would work out real well for prefab construction. CNC’s and cranes are commonplace in 2023!
Does your cost comparison with a stick frame house include the SIPs panels?
Hi. Thank you for video. I would live to build your scaled timberframe to allow a more relaxed way to understand the construction. Can or do you sell a kit? Thank you. John Lahman in Wisconsin
Hello, how do these systems work with residential fire protection systems? Do they need to be face mounted/ exposed or is there a chase cut for the pipe?
Hi . Great video thanks.
Question. Can I use timber frame and stick frame in a hybrid house in order to avoid sip panels?
Thank you! You absolutely can, it will likely reduce the depth of visible timber on the interior(8x8 post depth with 2x4 stud walls) but it is totally possible.
What is the energy efficiency like compared to a similar cost traditional house. Is it possible to build a timber framed passive house? Thanks
Why don't they use SIP panels for stick frames as well?
Too much material cost. You CAN if you wanted to, or do something similar. But most people just don't. With timbre, you HAVE too, so everyone does it
I can see how wiring that up would be a lot easier. I'm not sure how some electricians came to that conclusion
I want a volcan mind meld with this guy.
In Germany productivity on timber frame houses is high, due to a partly automatized production process.
Furthermore I am convinced climate change sets new conditions for how we should build. The importance of reducing CO2 emissions makes wooden houses way more attractive, infact a major solution. Concrete construction are too popular many places, unfortunately this type of building produces a lot of emissions, while every single wooden part stores some CO2.
aren’t you supposed to kiln dry the wood? or otherwise drying can take 1-2 years. So how is that taken care of?
Im a fan
Are there any design limitations with timber framing if I want to build a wide one story?
Wood still burns down in Calf. droughts., but I like your buildings and presentation
You’re dealing with the Coastal Commission in Malibu, PCH coastline and wealthy neighbors - NIMBY. They are difficult and the process could take 2 years. They City of Santa Monica is only marginally better.
Is it possible to build with popular or birch?