Is today’s Music just a Laptop and a Celebrity? (2021)
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- Опубліковано 2 січ 2021
- In this episode my good friend Tim Pierce and I discuss the state of session guitar playing from the 00's to the present. Tim has some hilarious stories.
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I took a walk the other day and heard some young kids playing in their garage. It was loud, distorted, their timing was off, and it was some of the best music I've heard in a while. It sounded human. They were clearly having fun. You could feel their joy.
Lmao it was loud distorted and their timing was off😂😂😂😂 I love it
Neil Young.....the original garage band. It doesn’t get any better than just banging away on the guitar. Play cinnamon girl and you‘ll get what I mean
Later on, they became famous with the name 'Blink 182'. :)
And you could find it, or anything like it, nowhere near the streaming charts...
You should have stopped in. People love that generally speaking.
The best line: A ambitious person with a laptop making tracks for a singer that wants to be a celebrity.
It’s amazing if you watch those singing competition shows not one of the contestants state when asked what their goal is that they want to be the best singer/artist they can be. They all say they want to be famous/ a celebrity.
got talent!
I liked “it’s the tail wagging the dog”!
Those shows manipulate, like all "reality" shows, and then at least some of them even autotune the performers.
In some cases the artist that wants to a celebrity is also the ambitious person with the lap
That country song about a guy being happy down a dirt road with a little house next to a pond was performed by someone living in a three-story home with a pool and $90,000 truck parked on a concrete driveway.
It should be pointed out that it's modern country he's talking about. Outlaw country is about pain, trains, and honky tonks.
Rappers and R&B stars are full of it too, "keeping it real" "still got the love for the streets" - yeah, the streets with the mansions with electric gates and personal butlers.
Modern country is bad 80’s music rehashed to death.
this was the MOST INTERESTING conversation ive heard all year!!
The year was only seven days old!
this year i've only showered a few times.
Either we're just weird people, but this conversation amazes me lol. You worked with Jim Steiman on I Would Do Anything For Love? Are you kidding me? I had to pause the video and go look up the song and album credits and sure enough, there's Tim Pierce, arranger. The guy played on a bunch of Phil Collins songs .I'm thinking, where's your band Phil? Many of those guys are good musicians, but they're creative musicians like Time Pierce. I understand this, as myself being a songwriter and have recorded a bunch of stuff, I have to surround myself with talented people. My engineer buddy, who I record with, calls himself a song sculptor. And he is. Of course my stuff is not charting anywhere, but it very much has all the attributes of any of these hit songs. And it's all real musicians. Even the drum loops are recordings of real drummers. So yea, very interesting conversation
One would think Rick and Tim would come across as jaded and bitter BUT their enthusiasm comes shining through the screen. This is a perfect example of age being just a number. These guys sound like clued up twenty-somethings. I LOVE listening to Rick and whomever he brings on, a special mention for Tim Pierce. He's an exceptional person to listen to, both musically and verbally. He's superb!
Still if Rick says the words "Billie" and "Eilish" in close proximity, a spell will be cast on the whole of his Atlanta-rooted Rivendell.
Music making is dead. It's dead. Every single page of it has already been opened and all that is coming out now are an admixture of rehashed, recycled samples from genres of the past.
Rick I could listen to you and Tim talk for hours.
For absolutely fucking hours. 🎸
I think we have over the year. Especially over this year. Tons of sit downs with these two posted this year, I wish Rick would compile all chats with Tim into a list. They are way better conversation than many music channels.
indeed
Agreed!
Same!!!
As a boomer, here are the Top 10 Reasons (in no particular order) that most (not all) pop music sucks today:
#1- Quantization. When the pacing of a song has no variation at all, it takes away the swagger of subtle rises and falls of energy in a song that are actually audible and awesome to the listener.
#2- Lyric quality. In a world as crazy as the one today, there's incredible opportunity for powerful messaging in lyrics. Listen the lyrical sophistication of Dylan's "It's Alright Ma" or the Beatle's "Eleanor Rigby" and compare it to today's lyrics. What a staggering dropoff.
#3- Looping. Because loop stations are making it possible for a weak musician to take 100 tries to nail just 4 measures, then 100 more takes to nail another layer on those 4 measures and so on, there's fewer and fewer musicians being raised on equipment where they're thinking of sound as a long-form, non-repeating compositioon. Making for some extremely repetitive song structures.
#4- The death of live recording. When you listen to some of the great 60's and 70's tracks, what you're hearing is a band in a room playing a song with analog mics. There might be a little mixing and mastering thrown in afterwards and maybe a layer here or there snipped out or in, but it's not 1-instrument-at-a-time recording the way most digital home studios are, and that change is killing the audible energy of musicians interacting with each other in real time.
#5- Increased industry profit-sophistication. It used to be, a DJ (even on major radio stations!) actually had large freedom to play what he/she wanted, including entire albums, experimental tracks, 20 minute tracks, etc. But then the industry slowly became profit-sophisticated enough to own the entire listener experience (Clear Channel, etc), and optimize their stations/stores/market spend to whatever would appeal to the most profitable demo, which often is whatever would most appeal to the mind of a minimally thoughtful suburban teen with dad's credit card.
#6- The death of mystery. In today's 24/7 digitally connected culture, most signed artists are encouraged to maximize their exposure on Instagram, Twitter, podcasts, promos, fan connections, etc. But what made limited connection amazing in the 70's and 80's is that there was a real underground. There were bands that you had to work within music circles to learn about, and even then, the info on them was sketchy and filled with myth. It's hard to be attracted to the enigma of a band when their members are taking photos of what they had for breakfast each morning on your social media feed.
#7- The death of genre culture. A lot of punk musicians in the 70's and 80's were the real deal. They were actually living out of a van nearly broke and playing concerts in dangerous slum bars then getting in fights and trashed after the show. A lot of bands like Traffic and Zeppelin and Captain Beefheart were actually holing up in a remote house in the country and capturing the pastoral, drug-infused vibes for 6 months. A lot of delta blues musicians were playing the reality of their downtrodden lives on a Mississippi front porch at night. Authenticity can be heard. And it's hard to sound authentic in an increasingly homogeneous America where 95% of young people are being raised in a similar boilerplate digital upbringing with Iphones and TikTok videos in a warm safe space house, where voice coaches and talent contests instruct them on how to sound.
#8- Production overtaking live musicianship. I mentioned looping and quantization which are sub-categories of this, but more generally, the easier and easier it gets for technologies to airbrush away live musicianship capacity (auto tune, unlimited takes in a bedroom studio, splicing and editing away mistakes, looping and quantization etc), the less and less motivation there is to become incredible first-pass-amazing musicians. Additionally, the more live equipment can aid musicians in this way, the motivation then becomes even less. There's something amazing about a basic microphone, a basic guitar, a basic bass, and a basic set of drums, with no elaborate pedal boards and no team of sound engineers off stage patching together production tricks, and STILL sounding amazing. There's something special about musicians so talented that they don't need any bells and whistles to sound great.
#9- Low expectations of the audience. This is sort of a chicken or egg question: "Did musicians dumb down audience expectation, or did audience expectation dumb down musicians?" Regardless, we're at a point now where even IF a musician has a Bohemian Rhapsody or Paranoid Android or Stairway To Heaven in their head, they have to weigh the money and effort in recording something like that, with knowing that's running polar opposite of the simple structures of music selling right now. If you're a financially struggling millennial, you're more inclined to put your effort into something that might become a huge pop hit to make you some money, than something you personally respect more.
#10- Less conducive practice spaces for young people. I don't hear enough about this last one. With the price of homes sky-rocketing, especially in bastions of artistic culture along the coasts in America, there's fewer and fewer 19 year olds that can afford to all split the rent of a large urban practice space where they play or live. And there's greater and greater police oversight on things like noise disturbances. On top of this, there's later and later helicopter-parenting into adulthood, where a lot of 18 and 19 year olds move back in with mommy and daddy in semesters between college or out of highschool, instead of all sharing rent in a rural house and getting amazingly right as a band. Generally speaking, the more difficult it becomes for young people to gather away from parental influence, and finance their own sub-cultures in independent young-adult scenes of their own, the less and less likely anything powerful will be captured in their music.
Now for the hard part...solutions in how to reverse these trends!
WP SN!!..”The 10!”..👏🏾🎈🎉🎊🏆✨ya hit the mark period!..imo!..(as well) I’m a Elderly Musician now,..a Boomer if you will,..and it’s saddening to know that Music will most likely NEVER get back to the “Human Element” of understanding just why it “touched” so many wide ranges of hearts back thru the years (any genre) than what it does and or how it fits into the lives of folks today.😭😓😰..newer generations will never get it...and we ALL can see why & get there by reading..YOUR “10”‼️ b(‘ _< !)
Things need to be hard for the talented ones to rise to the top. Things well never be hard again unless computers are wiped out.
I am a millenial (born in '94) and I totally get all of these points and recognizing them as truth makes me rather sad and angry. I grew up with great music and I am still discovering great "new to me" artists every few months. Music is new to me when I'm discovering it, no matter when it was recorded or produced. And I like music if it sounds original, human, authentic, fun and interesting. Music has to breathe, touch, tell a story or just rock, swing - lift you up, make you think, etc.. But most of these Spotify top-ten "hits" sound so unoriginal, dumb and put together with little to no heart.
How can you pick out singers by their voices, if they are trained to sound like a "typical pop singer", being pitch corrected, quantized and 50 takes get spliced together in order to sound flawless?
I actually enjoy hearing live performances with mistakes, voice-cracks or slight tempo issues, if the overall vibe just feels good or honestly captivating. I love listening to honest, natural voices and musicians expressing themselves by becoming one with their instruments no matter what genre or era. I love some music composed in the middle ages as well as original music from the 2010s. Jazz, Folk, Metal, Disco, Prog-Rock, excellent "Pop", Classical, Doo-Wop, Blues, you name it.
What's really saddening is that many talented and soulful artists who write their own stuff and perform honest and remarkable renditions of songs live also sound fabricated, overly compressed, quantized and pitch corrected on their records. Prime example: Lady Gaga.
I absolutely feel reason number 10: I feel like I should have learned an instrument and how to sing well from a young age on, but never really did, although I love singing, drumming away for fun, but my keyboard and guitar are just collecting dust, because I'm busy making a living working in a rather distressing office job and consuming UA-cam videos in my free time... the irony is not lost here ;). Crazy times we are living in - I often think about how it must have been growing up in the 50s to mid 90s when people were mostly free of digital media and more kids actually took their time to become great at playing a musical instrument and used those skills to later express their honest innermost feelings coming from their souls and make great art.
It's never too late I guess and there's still awesome music and other art being made and you can still choose how to spend your time, but i order to be able to really do this, having rich parents sure helps more than it did 40 years ago - to come back to one of the conversation's points.
While writing and editing this so much more comes to my mind as to how I feel about that whole situation - It comes down to being grateful for being able to enjoy so much great music while it's still available, having the opportunity to watch the greats from the past and present performing live and being able create your own art with tools which can really compliment your skills when not being overused.
Great stuff! Thanks for sharing! Music has changed these days.
@@KevinPlaysGuitar For sure it has, I honestly didn't expect anyone to see or even read this clunky stream of thoughts buried in the sub-comments that fast! But you might as well rather answered to the original post, though. :)
Jimmy Hendrix played a right handed laptop upside down....
whats a laptop.....
Tim is speaking too much truth for one interview here. He absolutely nailed it.
And he's always fun to listen to :-)
While plugging a Floyd Rose guitar no less.
Tim knows how the business works and knows where things are right now Pro Tools etc have not made this better
I love rock music in general and I'm glad it's around, but I'm not into bad rock music at all (like Nickleback, etc), but I would rather have that over really bad laptop celebrity music of today - but it's hard as I'm a 46 year old who had his time and can not change a thing and now it's the next generation's turn and what was good to me in 'my day' wasn't neccessarily good to my parents or their peers compared to what they listened to. I saw two teenage girls in Guitar Centre in Manhattan playing guitars and it was just such a nice thing to see, and we're probably over-tarring everyone with the same brush. A lot of people still like rock music and good, well-written music in general. It's just not currently as profit-making at the moment as laptop celebrity music, and it's all about making quick money for those who are only interested in making money. I'm not worried as there's tonnes of good music still coming out and stuff I haven't even heard yet! Sorry for the long text. 😀
This is BY FAR the best Tim Pierce piece of video out of every video he's ever done. He is FINALLY unreserved, no holds barred and unabridged. How un-Los Angeles of you, Tim! lol ;-). BE MORE LIKE THIS - all the time!!!!! Rick, great questions and prompting! Keep 'er lit, lads!
He was no holds barred a couple times on their New Years Eve conversation. It was the most interesting conversation I heard on a a New Years Eve ever! (Pete Thorn was awesome too, and Tosin...).
@@drewjohnson4794 what do you think his true opinion is, that might be called nazi?
I can relate..was in a 90s band and now Songwriter/Producer..resonates completely
Very Un-LosAngeles. And being from NY where they tell you HOW MUCH they disagree with you TO YOUR FACE, it was unnerving to see such blank stares in so many faces when I have been in L.A. It's one thing to keep your opinion to yourself..it's another to unlearn having any opinion.
@@Nelsonisms yeah I just think when people say "get called Nazis for having an opinion" its usually an opinion that is hateful towards others, which is something, coincidentally, the Nazis were!
This was one of the smartest music conversations I've heard in a while. That ending was tough to absorb, though. Songs compiled of only the hooks, seconds at a time, paid for in millipennies to dozens of people crafting at home around their day jobs.
Best explanation of what the music industry was, has become and how it got here I've ever seen from two people I have massive respect for!!
“Music was better when it was not so calculated”. Nailed it!
This is what happens when art becomes a business instead of art for arts sake.
Look at other "Artists" Like Dale Chihuly, or Thomas Kinkade or "Authors" like Danielle Steel or Stephen King. All hugely popular, all huge selling and rich. Hell, Chihuly hasn't blown a piece of glass since the 1970's but he still takes full credit and payment for his students work. All produce cold, calculated pablum for the masses. Designed to be cranked out as fast as possible with total disregard to "art" and total regard to money.
@@jimt828 And it doesn't have to be this way. currently, the audience pay for this mediocrity.
Amen. It's happened with movies as well. Too much of a "formula" going on
There is non calculated music right now, you just have to support it
@@TheChadPad Your analogy is perfect. Not only are movies rehashing or remaking classic stories and themes, but CGI has ripped the soul right out of movies. Pro Tools and beat detective have done exactly the same thing to music. I am fully prepared to face the "OK, Boomer" I earned with that comment!
Thanks for bringing back Tim. He has so much knowledge and always has a great attitude.
He does have his own YT channel. Really great with Rick though.
Smiling assasin....certainly was the go to guy for a lot of 90s hits...I have to say that in 2021 a lot of guitar players can do what he does....but back then he was ahead of the pack...maybe we learnt all his tricks without knowing it
I remember in the 90’s the worst thing you could say about a band was calling them sell-outs. Musicians wanted the music to speak for itself. With how my favorite musicians make money now; they have to sell-out, they have to chase sponsors, and they have to protect their brand. And as such, they can’t be controversial, or breakthrough mold, or anger the algorithm.
yep, say something meaningful and you get cancelled.
They can't be controversial? Did you sleep through 2020?! A song called "Wet Ass Pussy" was named to the top 10 of a ton of critics song of the year lists and no one over the age of 35 could shut the fuck up about how "controversial" it was for months on end.
WAP and all the controversy that followed was a calculated move, and it was right on-brand for her
@@jacobwilson6018 yeah, but this directly refutes your statement above. Artists can be as controversial as they want. Case in point, Lil Nas X's latest video. Many people are up in arms because of the imagery in the video. But it isn't going to harm him at all.
This is the second episode I've seen with Tim Pierce as Rick's guest, and while I love how Rick takes songs apart to show how they're "great," these episodes are about CREATING music. My brother is a songwriter in Toronto, and my nephew composes and arranges music for films down in LA, after earning a Master's in Composition and Film Scoring from USC. They've both written and arranged for their respective bands, with a strong emphasis on vocals. I grew up with a contralto mother trained in voice at the Boston Conservatory of Music and a father with a mostly untrained but very rich bass-baritone, cultivated in the San Francisco Boys' Chorus. They both sang in the San Francisco Opera Chorus for a number of years, until we demanded too much of their time. My brother and I were exposed to opera, musical theater, classical music, and theater, though my brother and I applied our musical skills to figuring out popular and esoteric music from childhood onward--him on the guitar and in many bands over the years, and me accompanying myself on the piano, performing in bars and coffeehouses.
I've always understood music performance, but Rick's conversations with Tim have provided me with a greater understanding of how music has been produced for the last--what?--50 years than I think I could have found anywhere else. I see there are more episodes with Tim Pierce, and you can be sure I'll be watching each one closely.
Thanks for all of this, Rick!
Tim makes a lot of sense. Modern vocalists are like 80's guitar shredders. Personally, I prefer the space between the vocals.
Great comparison
not all but yeah
So the moral of the story ... 1. Make music because you love to and because it's fun 2. No excuses because entry to recording [or playing] what you want is available at a low price. 3. Enjoy the process of growth because this is a multifaceted craft that gets deeper through the years 4. Don't quit your day job because there's not much to be made in the industry. Refer to point 1 to keep motivated.
Well stated. Don't expect to be compensated monetarily for your music today ... that's the reality. Do it because you want to. I don't expect to make anything playing golf. Enjoy the whatever, for the love of doing it, for learning something new, for getting better, for connecting to some thing - someone.
Spot on 😎
Agreed. The illusion of the rock star has faded...the thing MTV programmed into all us young guitar players is dead. What's left for me is how much fun it is writing songs and having the equivalent of multi-million dollar 1980's studio in my spare bedroom.
@@Nightwinflyer amazes me constantly. Laptop studio. Hello 16-yr old me. Laptop. Studio. 🤯
The moral is quit pop if you care about music -it's over.
In the music business, we went from hundreds of people making millions of dollars to millions of people making hundreds of dollars.
Luv that more people are actually attempting to make their own music: Rather than just be passive consumers of someone else's product.
haha love it. well i,m not gonna cut my ear off
This is partially true. The big corporations are still around and have the controlling interest behind the scenes. If they weren't still making the money, they wouldn't be around.
Kinda like the 80/20 principle reverse engineered. 80% of the people create music content and 20% Spectate?Consume. Hell even my Mother in Law makes "beats "
That was true before, it is true now. You think people weren't having failed music careers back then?
Just looked at Tim's discography. Wow.. he's done some amazing work over the years
"Music was better when it wasn't so calculated" so true
^this
The music industry has got it down to a formula, tweaking a few things here and there on occasion to give the illusion of change/progression. A trained ear can easily notice these things.
so western art music by that definition is mediocre?
Thinking of the Bare Trees album which gave me the impression that it actually was one long track covering two sides of the LP.
🤔 I’m hearing a bunch of neat sounding music these days . . .
Agreed. The organic flow of music is not best compressed or sampled in my opinion. When I here a today pop song, no joke here, I find it so hokey and trite, that whatever the music in it is, my brain converts it all to perfect pitch farts. The new sounds annoy me that much.
This conversation is very important to young listeners who are interested about music history.
Back in the day, you wanted to be famous with your music but now the PROFESSION is being a celebrity and the songs are the “jingle”, the “advertisement”, the “Commercial” for what your profession which is being a CELEBRITY.
Yes
Over many decades we have gradually moved from a culture in which you had to actually DO something in some field that enough people thought was excellent to be famous to a culture completely based on surfaces that celebrates what people APPEAR to be.
Tim is a gem. He understands the music industry, accepts that he can't change it, and works within the new model. It's so fun to hear him tell stories about some of the artists he's worked with.
FYI: Rock and Roll is about rebellion, not "accepting" the abhorrent existing norms.
Rock music has made a big comeback in Australia in the past few years. Especially bands from Sydney like DMA's, Ocean Alley and Lime Cordiale. (Also, Spacey Jane, from Fremantle, WA.) They all released successful albums last year and are touring Australia this year. Just saw a Lime Cordiale gig in Melbourne last night. It was incredible, they played to a sold-out venue, and their set was nothing but bangers. 🙆♀️😊 Radio station Triple J has really helped promote rock bands here.
Love DMA's!
DONT FORGET THE CHATS.
Now I'm on smoko. SO LEAVE ME ALONE.
I know King Gizzard from AUS, there are very good !!
i Love, Voyager, 12 Foot Ninja, & Toehider from Australis. been great experience liiving working there. Great nature people food & rock music.
I love when people talk about these kind of things that often get overlooked!
Yeah, I was sad when it ended because I wanted to hear more!
I think about it alot...you get 40k streams and earn $20..if it was the 90s it would have been $20k
@@thesuncollective1475 Yes I know that some people think about it. What I was saying was that it generally gets overlooked, not that every individual ignores it.
Todays super mega ultra pop music: Pre pre chorus, pre chorus, chorus, post chorus, post mortem chorus.
it's has been this for years
When i used to write the pop songs for winners from the “Canadian Idol” tv show. We were writing the album not knowing if it was going to be for a girl or boy, so we wrote open ended lyrically. The producers all used lap tops. The none of the big mixers or tape machines were used. I was amazed at how it was all done in a laptop. Greetings from Canada.
Really appreciate the channel.
The problem with the industry and you touched on it briefly is Music no longer has value to the public. People want access and convenience at little to no cost. I don’t know how to remedy this issue and convincing every musician to protest or strike wouldn’t work.
Man... hearing Tim explain it so plain, it makes total sense ...it's fun to listen to people who really know what they're talking about
“Is today’s music just a laptop and a celebrity?” Replace “music” with “culture” and now you’re talking. This is far beyond a problem for music. This is the culture now.
Nothing wrong with that
@@adamslawson Nothing wrong with celebrating mediocrity?
@@ericl6460 I do. What I’m suggesting is that computers have had a fundamentally negative affect on all music.
‘Economics are the driver of the whole thing’
If you want your stuff out there, it’s either YT monetized or Music Industry. Otherwise just play for yourself, friends, family.
What ever happened to that Hilton girl? 🤔 Did she stop being famous for being famous?
I love the insights that both of these amazing individuals bring to the conversation.
I love when you and Tim talk. You both have so much history and experience to share. Thanks for the vid, Rick!
"One likes to believe in the freedom of music/But glittering prizes and endless compromises/Shatter the illusion of integrity..."
Damn, Rush nailed it.
@@BenDowdy Rush was/is a great band..but I think Neil and crew knew that it actually isn't that simple.Hell, if people want to accept an award..fine. You can still make great music..just don't drink THAT Kool-aid.
sis you know that the next couple of lines are a take on Sounds Of Silence by Simon & Garfunkel?
catch the spit
@@nobrainsnoheadache2434 Dayum! how did I miss that for all these years? Well spotted
What Tim is describing about the lyrics in Nashville is similar to what happened with corporate rock/metal in the 80's. people were only able to tolerate "get loaded/get laid" lyrics for so long before everything started to sound contrived and like a caricature of itself. Much of the country music out today has a similar quality.
That gives hope. When most all of country's mainstream lyrics are "I have a pickup truck a bottle of JD and a dog," when most all the mainstream rap /hip-hop says "i'm getting loaded, getting laid, and getting rich quick," and most of the pop (well, most of the rap too) is using all the same sounds as accompaniment, in the same chord progressions of the same notes, then, we will be excited when something new turns up. Streaming might need to go through another drastic change, though, to make that happen.
Especially the bro country movement. So ridiculous. Its comical to me people are serious about that junk. It actually comes off as comedy to me,like they meant it to be funny, but it gets stupid old fast.
@John Eric Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings, first and foremost. Add in Townes Van Zandt.
@John Eric The post war economy ,for many,was quite good.
@John Eric Luckily, people are allowed to to easily forget all the others. There was alot of crap,too! (and also genius).
Great conversations you guys have. Good on-camera chemistry between you two.
Good stuff Rick and Tim
This is an incredible video. The amount of information and history here is astonishing. Exceedingly insightful. Rick, I think this may possibly be the best video you've ever made. You've been saying all these things the whole time but to see it all laid out in such a concise, well expressed way is just amazing.
I miss the 60s and 70s there were one or two classic albums coming out every week and most of them were guitar-based it was just magical
Yeah.
Also, I was first if this comment gets a lot of likes
Yeah 😢
70s especially!
The comment about endless vocals is what I hate about today's music. I hate the endless runs and voice tricks which are probably auto-tuned anyways.
I ABSOLUTELY HATE THAT CRAP TOO!SOOOO FRIGGN FAKE!
THIS effort to make it sound perfect is ridiculous!Music is an art form. It's not about perfection it's about expression!
@@everettewell6167 also character and texture!
@Dustin Punks. Absolutely!
Not probably auto-tuned. All of it is auto-tuned! All of it! It's annoying.
Love Rick's programs. Often, like this one, it is just having a person who knows their stuff, are gifted at communication, and sit down and start speaking. You feel like you are at an LA cocktail party and just walking by, stop and luck into this incredible discussion.There is an actual conversation with substance and an exchange of ideas. Here I am just standing there soaking it in. But great thing is you don't have to strain to keep up, or if you don't know a phrase they use, you can stop and go look it up on the internet. You can back up and listen again. OK with this COVID debacle, you have to make your own drink, but when you leave to 'freshened it up' and come back, you have not missed a damn thing. Wonderful party! Thanks, Rick.
It's the haze, ambiguity, imperfection, and mystery where music really lives and shines. Perfection is unnatural and quite dull.
There is a character in imperfection. There is humanness in rough raw edges.
And while there is room for some perfection in music: when every recording is perfect, and the goal is making money over of making great songs and creativity, music becomes a faceless, lifeless, dead zone.
Exactly! I love Jimmy Page and Keith Richards and Tony Iommi (among many others) /because/ they have their own ragged edge to their playing, like they're chasing an ideal phrase and sometimes they stumble a bit. The image of Page laying down 3 takes of a guitar solo and just picking the one that he likes best, even if he slurred or flubbed a phrase makes me smile...
I'm 27 now, I fell in love with music somehow at the age of 12 and it was American rap, I come from Poland. Mainly rap from the turn of the 80's and 90's. Then, only because of the essay which I was about to do on the Viennese classics, I fell in love with classical music. Then I got to know rock music and now I listen to everything. I have been learning guitar for a year and I love music of all genres.
That sounds encouraging to me. I play music since 36 years. Started playing Keyboard in a Big Band. So mainly I played this and Jazz Standards, Country Evergreen songs in a Combo of 3 to 5. I had some piano lessons for some years in classical music. I played in a classic rock band, which was great fun but we had only a and full of gigs a year. Then I played in a cover band with 12 people in weddings, beer tents and ball room. So stay interested in music and don't be narrow minded. There is always something to learn and to have fun.
@@hawedehre At my age it is difficult to start learning to play a musical instrument, but I still enjoy it. Nowadays I'm mainly interested in rock from the 60's and 70's but I don't close myself to what I used to like
Rap from the 80s and 90s sound like classical music compared to the mumble rap of today.
Nice to see someone else from Poland kurwaxd metal head here
(c)rap is not music.
.....and then you find out Tim played on “I’d Do Anything For Love.....” as well.
Sweet Jesus this man is a phenomenon.
Right?
I'm reasonably certain he's played on half on my songs, too, and I've never met the guy or had anyone else play on my songs.
He talks about music being too calculated, but then was on some of the most calculated pop records of the past three decades. Goo Goo Dolls? Hell, Jim Steinman’s stuff is great, but it’s as calculated as all get out of Hell.
Check out his playing on the Welcome to the Neighborhood album too!
But he doesn't really name drop, he's humble and human about it! The man does impress.
I think the other casualty of celebrity and technology is the demise of the concept of a "band". Real collaboration, and real instrumentation creates much of the magic of truly great song writing and incredible performances. Synths and samples are great tools for prototyping a song, but real musicians make a song come a live. Lastly, a multi-member band is too expensive to pay and too much of a wildcard for talent agencies to manage. I'd love to see Rick do a piece on the fall of "bands" .
It’s always a lottery when starting a band. It only takes 1 person to fuck the whole thing up
Bands are still the norm in metal and rock tho
Please a part two. I loved the conversation! I am sure you guys have a lot more to share.
I am not a musician. Just a huge fan, but I find this conversation quite fascinating.
Then I welcome you to what I am doing...music and lyrics for the above average listener.
When they are talking about "Music" i think they are talking about Pop/Radio station music. But there are a lot o good music today, but it needs to be searched now because its not main stream
Totally true. Look at all the great stuff on bandcamp. What’s missing today is interesting radio stations. They do exist online but there’s so many to sift through to find the gold, but it’s there.
Spot on. Internet offers unlimited access to new, interesting and sincere music creators from all over the world. Income enablers have increased from a select few radio/TV/stations/movie theaters/live venues to multitudes of cable programming,/streaming services/video games/internet radio. IMO it's out there for listening and hustle.
@@eggjoe122 As you get older, you hear so many things that sound pretty similar to things you have already heard, often many years in the past. So instead of getting big feelings from things you hear that are new, you have to appreciate that they are being done in a new context, often merely intellectually- in the end, you gravitate towards what gave you the big feeling the first time around. Music is a lot like romance in that way.
True, but I think their point is making a living out of being a musician. Loads of excellent music being produced for charity, basically.
Great interview. It's always a pleasure to see you two talk. Thanks
What a great conversation/discussion about music industry. Really enjoyed the video!
I'm an artist on Spotify that was not only was signed by the creators of Woodstock as their first indie artist (and written about in one of their books) but had Shelly Yakus (John Lennon, U2) produce my albums as well. Currently working a construction gig and shooting videos as a living lol The old model of music is def dead. This was a very interesting topic....and pretty close to home.
Fascinating and sad I’m sorry to hear that. Thanks for sharing.
I agree, def dead. The only silver lining I can find is something John Waite said "The art is now back in charge". I guess it is. It isn't monetized. But it IS art for art's sake.
Do what both Rick and Tim do. Start a channel like Rick where you discuss music topics (in particular your experiences, which people will likely be very interested in) and build up an audience. Then have a 2nd channel where you sell a music training system of some sort.
@@doublek321 oh the music training bubble... ppl learning music to teach music to someone who will learn music to teach music and so on. Those who want to learn guitar as a hobby don't even have to pay for lessons since there are tons of free content online.
Wow......the most spot-on analysis of the current music industry. As an independent songwriter I fully agree with your evaluation of today's country music output from Nashville. I may never get a single song recorded or played on the air, but every song I have ever written is from the heart and (in some way or another) from life experience. Regardless, I will continue to create my art even if only for friends and family around the campfire.
I've been fortunate enough to find a studio where I live that I pay 300 to 400 dollars to record my songs. I don't even have to play guitar if I don't want. My engineer plays everything anyway. And he produces world class, radio playable stuff. But I still do it for the love of it and watching my songs take on skin. My engineer considers himself a song sculptor and he is. Very creative guy. And I can send him a demo, he'll create the whole song and I just go in and sing if I want.
@@ElmanAuthement that "engineer" guy seems to be a genius.
As an 80s rocker your show is so great. Your enthusiasm is catching. Makes me want to play again. I was with Chrysalis near the end. Too much coke. Labels destroyed 20 bands to the one that made it through the chaos.
Love Disturbed. Sound of silence maybe the best production and video I have heard in 30 years
I looked you up. Were you in a band called Wild Blue? From what I read Chrysalis basically destroyed your band, and you ended up on the short end of the stick.
So true! Thanks Rick & Tim 👍🏻 Hope for a part 2! All the best from Poland, Michał
"The lyrics are an affectation." Ding, ding, ding. Give that man a cigar.
right along with that twangy vocal inflection they all do
@@scovell7 I find that fake accent unbearable. It's such an obvious affectation.
@@cautiousoptimist1926 me too!
*Loved the explanation on why and how the "Classic Rock" sound moved to Nashville. I've been trying to explain this to my older rock friends for years, and they can't seem to accept this fact!*
When you were a kid spending all your money on records who would have believed it if someone would have said one
day you won't need to buy records you will have a device like Spocks Tricorder that fits in your pocket where you press a button and practically every record ever to exist will be available to you. Only price to pay is it ruins the music business and ushers in the demise of all things to do with it.
Yeah, too bad for the filthy rich label backmen who took most of the money anyway 🤘
"Every record ever to exist" is a key part of it. Even if we had no internet, no cell phones, We have this amazing 70 year backlog of hi-fidelity music, lots of which serious music fans feel they have to get a grasp on to be musically literate. Houses of the Holy is still an amazing record to discover as a 14 year old learning about rock, and it's, what, 47 years old now? Any rock band today has to fight for that kid's attention against Led Zeppelin, The Cars, R.E.M., The Pixies, Nirvana, Radiohead, not to mention all the metal, soul, hip hop, and other stuff that has 30-50 backlog of classic albums. It's a blessing for music fans to have such a surfeit of masterpieces to discover...you just never run out of high-quality stuff from the past if you keep poking around. For young artists, the bar is so high. Duke Ellington once said late in his life that his biggest competition was "some old guy named Ellington"--his own back catalog got in the way of people experiencing his newer music.
I have learned SO SO much from your videos, Rick. Thank you so much! You have opened my eyes AND my ears to hearing music in a totally different way.
I have a real job that feeds my stomach, but I write music to feed my soul. I have made some micro pennies on streaming services, but I only put songs out there as a way to share them. For me, making music is something I just need to do. I totally agree with Tim's comments regarding country lyrics. It seems like they have a requirement for a cliche in every single line. It's so bogus that I just can't identify with it.
nobody will work for free
True that! But some stories told by especially classic country artists will touch the soul. No, I don't need any more songs about fishin' or driving a pickup truck. Loved Paisley's "This is Country Music", though.
I'm in the same boat. Music is love. It would be nice to kissed back once and a while.
@@judenihal Some work for the good of the soul. It ain't always about money.
@@BenDowdy That's playing music. When you are actually working on a piece of music and editing a song, then it becomes more of a chore, and ultimately you will end up hiring other people to work on the track which costs money.
Tim is a soothsayer of musical truth! He's honest but not in a demeaning way.
He was pretty demeaning when he did the "country music people act country, but really they are smart". Honest country people are smart too.
He's making too much sense.
Wow. You guys articulate the weirdness of this situation so well. The candidness was refreshing.
Love this conversation... so honest and right on the mark without sounding mean or anything. Very interesting perspective.
This is a tremendously insightful, fascinating, revealing, and entertaining conversation. I’ll watch anything with you and Tim discussing music and business.
Rick and Tim in a video is going to be such a great one. So much wisdom from you both!
No rules need to be obeyed! Make it compelling and people will not be able to resist it. If it draws them in emotionally you’ve done the job.
Great stuff Rick. I'm catching up on your videos I missed and discovering your vids talking with Tim. Having lived as a drummer through the years Tim talks about, I really enjoy what you guys talk about.! And it's great to laugh out loud again.
Very interesting conversation. We need a part II.
Guitar is the only role I'm looking to play! Cheers Rick and Tim!!
I've also noticed how the vocal line dominates above ll else in today's hits, meaning that the songs use phrasing and melody that leaves little to no space. Basically just enough for a singer to take a breathe (and sometimes less than that). I felt that this is more due to the blues having less and less influence as time passes and now is virtually gone. The type of "call and response" that was ubiquitous between the voice and instruments is no longer present at all.
Fabulous nostalgia from two masters!!! Thanks for sharing Tim Pierce
Easily the best, most thoughtful, conversation about the history and current state of pop music I've heard in a very long time. Bravo!
Tim Pierce is such a boss. Super skilled, talented and a super nice guy.
Why is everything super?
Great, fascinating talk.
More please, Rick & Tim, I really enjoy your reflections and observations, and I really enjoy the scattered anecdotes and 'colour'.
Your respect and reverence for this guy is notable. I do not know who he is, but you did a really great interview here, by just letting him speak and directing the conversation. Totally pro!
my god you and Tim should do a series on just random topics related to music, the gold you both say! man!
Rick’s interview with Robben Ford “the cell phone has just about killed everything culturally”
thanks ill ahve to check that one out. and mando i agree with that !
@@HeadbangoO Yeah, all the music that was made before smartphones were invented.
@@HeadbangoO Some of us are able to live a perfectly content life without owning a smartphone. I really don't see the need for the world to be able to know where I am, 24/7.
Dating too. Now you have to pay money to some Zionist’s who run tinder if you want to date. All these algorithms are black boxes and they’re probably manipulated so versions factions “get theirs” and the rest of us are just left with nothing. The old life gone. The new life being locked in a house.
@@thewatcher8639 ugggggggg!
Great content, great thoughts, great questions. The philosophy of music. Keep bringin it
Super cool conversation. Thanks for all you do Rick.
Quote I heard a while ago- guitar solos were replaced by the guest rapper.
Yup!
David Bowie used to be the musical guest on SNL. Now it’s rappers and guest rappers. Tired of it.
@@Karensagainstkarens what's wrong with rappers
It's why I never willingly listen to any music with "feat." in the title.
And they always say their name or their alter-ego type name all over the song when they rap, or they have a catchphrase or weird sound they make with their voice.
You know stuff like "DJ COLLIN!" "WE THA BEST!" "Cardi!" "Aaaahhhh" "Skkkiiiirr" "Skir skir" "YOUNG MONEY!"
I love hearing Tim Pierce speak. He’s down to earth, knowledgeable, experienced, and, most importantly, agrees with my opinions! 😄
Awesome video Rick!! I really enjoyed it. It got home on so many levels.
This was an incredible video! I was hanging on every word! Loved it❤
I've been jamming out to Bat Out of Hell 2 for YEARS now, and always loved the guitar tones. It wasnt until today that I realized it was TIM who tracked all of the guitars on that album. This is why I love these videos with Tim. He has such amazing stories on some amazing songs and records.
This was a bit depressing, guys. But I love the way you, Tim, explain the development (or the opposite), and we've seen the same in Sweden (from where some of these "kids with a laptop" comes from). They are closing down all main studios. Abba's studio is a gym since 15 years, Roxette's studio (the studio you nowadays see in Dirty Loop's videos) will soon make way for new apartment buildings - and on it goes.
There are a few new studios where you still can record more than a singer or a single guitar. Where you can fit strings, choirs, record grand pianos, or full rock groups with drum iso booths and all. ABBA-Benny (Andersson) has a great new studio, mainly for his more folk/ethno type of music he does.
But the business for acousticly recorded music is probably - and I'm guessing now - down to under 10 % of all distributed music. The rest is created on Macbooks.
Then the pandemic came and took away live acts... 😢
Lets be hopeful..it may come back. Many years ago..warehouses became studios, in the beginning. Those building are just a place..those walls don't make the art...the artists do.
Wow. That needs a Part 2.
Thanks for breaking these tunes down Rick...It’s refreshing to hear such fair commentary about each song
Musicians on musicians and music. You're two of a kind! Wonderful moment, thank you both. To me Nashville seems to become more and more a place where real musicians and music have a place to express themselves without being forced into the classic country music genre. So no surprise to see players like Robben Ford are finding a way to melt in there. Country/pop crossover artists like Keith Urban are also really inspiring me with their creativity and fresh approach. Promising to see from a place far far away from Nashville :-)
Yes, I also found it interesting that Robben made the move, there must be a reason. The few musicians I've met from Nashville were all pretty amazing as players and people.
Would love your reactions to Band Maid. These japanese women keep rock music alive. My favorite band in decades. Kanami plays PRS customs, has Carlos Santana, Larry Carlton, EVH as her influences. She gave a beautiful tribute tweet to Eddie. Their instrumental live song Onset, is in my top 10 songs of all time. Kanamis tapping runs play as a chorus to the song. Misa is one of best bassits today. She has numerous bass solos, would love a reaction to that song. Jimmy Page caught a live show of them while in tokyo in 16, he did a photo with drummer Akane, calling her one of the best drummers since Bonham. Music is universal, most songs are in japanese, but no band besides nightwish, moves me like they do. The dragon cries they sing in english. Its very Led Zepplinish.
Miku, The rythum guitarist worked in a Maid cafe in tokyo, while she was in school. She loved rock music, and thought what if, we wore maid outfits, and rocked. " the gap" its called. So she created the whole image. Kanami, the lead guitarist writes the songs, and Puzzle she has more guitar riffs in one song, bands could write numerous songs out of.
Rock music has been alive, its just in Europe and Japan. Kanami, like Toumas Holopenien of Nightwish, are two of most incredible song writers today. Im 49, grew up on classic rock, and lost faith in rock during the 90's. But Band Maid, and Nightwish ate my listening now. The transitions, build ups, lead ups, solos, bridges, outro so.os, bass- guitar trade off solos these bands do are so incredible.
Funny I forgot that early in my military career in Germany you could sign out various vintage Fender guitars to play. Then at some point in the mid to late eighties they were all gone so you had to buy your own instrument to play. Then the amps disappeared.
Two cool dudes: Gotta love the smiles and laughs. And super informative along the way. Thanks guys.
"There were always artists that just wanted to be famous, but now it's really the whole game."
So true.
Thanks Rick and Tim.. excellent insight to today's music industry. Yes, depressing for creative people just getting started, even established ones. How do we ensure truly innovative non-mainstream artists have a way for us to hear their stuff that pays them equitably? Streaming services are just like the worst of the old record contracts where artists end up being taking advantage of, aren't paid enough, and can't survive in the industry. If the big music companies continue to have control over exposing only the artists they feel will pay off the biggest, we will continue to get a mass of diluted, homogenized, uninteresting schlock being produced that's all about image instead of emotion, and young listeners simply expecting that is what the scope of today's music is. I feel fortunate to have grown up at a time when there was so much variety, and so many record companies backing what would today be considered crazy risks. Those risks turned out to be the some of the best bands the world has ever seen.
i found you only two days ago,and i say thanks to you because when had see the yours videos you have expand my music library and touch every single cord of my soul with new artists new music. and i say thank to you. (Sorry for my bad English).emiliano from Rome
This. Was. Amazing. I could listen to these guys talk for days.
Even though I agree about the unrealistic mythology in country music, as someone who has lived on a dirt road 3 miles off pavement in the least populated county in Arkansas, it IS indeed a true source of happiness.
These city slickers will never understand. And that's ok.
I bet. But not everyone's aspiration, nor should it be.
Until it rains on that dirt road
@@guitardude4700 I grew up on a ranch in Texas with a pickup truck, dirt road, chickens in the backyard... I don't miss that crap.
Tim's critique of country music around the 7 min mark is spot on.
I'm loving these rants - keep 'em coming!
Beautiful, deep discussion on the business and aesthetic of popular music ... thanks guys!
Shredding killed the guitar. I was just jogging listening to Cream and every lead break was tasty as hell, genius. And the lyrics were that whacky, groovy stuff that made no sense but placed it in the 60s. I’m stopping now. Good show.
It also helps that cream is one of the best bands ever. I listened to them an hour straight doing yard work yesterday.
@Hudson Donald They have a few great songs, but overall.....meh. Clapton, I can appreciate.
Modern metal shredding. Perhaps. Though it can have a place.
Van Halen was a "shredder", as well and he broke new ground. "Shredding" is a relative concept.
Not really. Nirvana killed shredding before the guitar faded out from its vaunted position as “the” instrument for cool kids.
The amount of great bands from the 60s is insane: the kinks, the zombies, hendrix, velvet underground, ccr, zappa, the doors, captain beefheart (ny favorite) etcetcetc.
He's right, Rock lost the battle for my attention in the late 2000s. I tried to keep listening to rock stations and finally walked away into EDM. I actually called a few Rock stations to request fresh tracks but they would never play anything but Creed, Nickelback, and "Crazy Train" on repeat. It was programmed for corporate tattoo shops and oil change drive-thrus.
I lol'ed so hard at Crazy Train.
Another fascinating interview. I learn so much, and am just in awe at the level of expertise and professionalism of the people you know and work with in the Rock music buisness. Wow.
Most excellent video, thank you Rick. And many thanks to Tim. This should be a 101-basics for how the music business is happening today, and strong hints to where it's going.