The Death of the Middle Class Musician (feat. Tim Pierce)
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- Опубліковано 23 січ 2024
- In this episode, Tim Pierce and I talk about the disappearance of working class jobs in the music industry.
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It's not isolated to musicians. The entire American middle-class is being wiped out.
Yep, and all on purpose.
So true. The mega rich and leaders of these powerful companies could do a lot better to protect the middle class and our keep our country strong and prospering .
Unfortunately, with all of the jobs being lost, structurally (not just individual jobs, but the whole category disappearing) there is no longer a ladder to climb from entry level to expert. That stable, long, slow climb is what allows you to have stability and leisure time for the kids or for volunteering or gigging. It's pretty sad, what's happening.
Rick should have Jaron Lanier on sometime to discuss the future of the music industry.
His book "Who Owns The Future" is a fascinating (scary) read..
AI is going to wreak more destruction than we ever imagined. Hell, Sports Illustrated laid off all of their writers this week. Human writers.
The best thing about music today is that anyone with a laptop can make a record.
The worst thing about music today is that anyone with a laptop can make a record.
Absolutely.
I remember thinking about this back in 2003-2004 when I first got my hands on a decent DAW and started recording and releasing my own music. How long until everybody does this, and how will anybody get their music heard then? Now here we are, 20 years later, and we're sort of back to the days of payola. You can make and release all the music you want, but you have to pay for anybody to hear it.
great insight, I’m 73, played with Tennessee Ernie Ford when I was 19. For musicians things are worse and it makes me sick. We are losing our culture. This is not the lament of an old man, this is reality, sad but, true. Rick, more power to you, same to Tim.
Where did you play with him? And how did that come to be? Over where i live theres still a ton of records by Tennessee Ernie Ford in the 2nd-hand shops / Op-Shops, it only shows how big of a star he must've been!
Yep. One of the things I've noticed over my 43 year career is the dissolution of sincerity. As I was coming up it seemed to me that there were more musicians that played because they loved music, NOT solely so they could be successful, popular or famous. Now these players did like getting gigs and playing on stage and being successful but it seemed mostly secondary to the genuine love of music and camaraderie itself. Over the years SHOWBIZ has taken over the fundamental motivations and souls of players. Just an observation.....
You are the real heroes of the MI
Agreed, performances today, overacted and creepy.
I like how Tim holds a guitar during the entire interview even though he does not plan to play it. It is as if the guitar is a natural part of his wardrobe.
He plays in the last 30 seconds to make sure he gets some notes in.
0:10
AH NO...he has to hold it.
It reminds me of the official music video for Willy DeVille's "Storybook Love," the song from The Princess Bride. The song, just like the rest of the film score, was the work of only two other musicians--composer Mark Knopfler on guitar, and his frend Guy Fletcher playing synth versions of every other instrument on keyboards. All through the video, as Willy sings, the studio is full of orchestral musicians who just sit around, doing absolutely nothing. Knopfler and Fletcher are, I think, the only people seen ever playing a note while all the real horn and string players sit around looking bored. It's kind of hilarious.
😅
I was a full-time NYC studio musician back in the day.
I was on the B-list:- about 120 musicians who took the work the A-list musicians (about 15-20 individuals) didn't have the time to do. Really good money but the pressure was terrible. One strike, and you were OUT. The producers usually enjoyed letting you know there were 10,000 guys waiting to take your job. I got tired of the strain and became a music instructor. Not as exciting but music became fun again. Be careful what you wish for if you want to continue loving music.
I hear you. Before Will Lee went to NYC and became A-List premo for decades, he'd come see me and my local acts on the Beach. He said I should go to NYC to get into that scene. I never did. He had all the connections through having his old man dean of U Miami's music dept. I was good, solid but not his caliber but he once told me I was the only bass player he thought sounded like him. Maybe, on certain things, but he covered all basses, pun intended.
I used to play NYC every weekend for years. Being able to afford living in NY came to end for me and I entirely moved out of the state. It’s just fun memories now
tommy tedesco talks about that same concept too
I just read Chuck Israels' book. He talks about the studio scene in New York, amongst many other things.
Exactly. I got tired of being a "sideman".
Not just the music industry. I was a warehouse worker in the 80s and was paid well with good befits until they fired everyone and went with temps (and drove the wages down 70%). Knew guys that worked at Radio Shack and other stores in the mall (like Al Bundy working in the shoe store) and were able to support a family on that income. It's a different world now...
A different world but not necessarily a better world. Is music better in 2023 than it was in 1983? There are few industries where things are better, particularly for the middle class even though technology has driven productivity to levels that couldn't have even been imagined in the 1980s.
@@williamscott850Can't disagree, all good points
@@williamscott850I think the first comment also says it was worse. I don't think they are saying being unable to support a familyy on retail income is good.
It's so wild to even read things like this... I was born in '93 and this world is almost unimaginable to me.
If I could, I'd go back to the 80s in a heartbeat. Medicine and technology have advanced by leaps and bounds since then, but people were more tolerant of each other, basic day-to-day life was less stressful, and (in my opinion) music was much better @@williamscott850
In the 70s I was playing gigs with guys that were in their late 50s early 60s . They told me of the days when there was so much work for musicians you could work 24/7 . Every radio station, television studio , restaurant, bar, hotel lobby, theater , party , political event ie everything required live music if music was required at all.
While working on a film set a while back, it was in a high school library, and I picked out at random a bio of Bing Crosby to browse through for a few minutes. Opening the book to anywhere, I came across a passage where Bing was writing to his drummer brother in Seattle and saying how that he, Bing, was in L.A. and that EVERYONE was working. Bing was telling his brother to get his ass down there to take advantage of the voluminous work. I think this was in the late 1920s. Not so many working musicians now...
Good episode Rick.
I’m a guitarist who lived in L.A. for two decades. My wife plays B3, and as weekend warriors our blues band, and jazz band, played all over town.
We were lucky to have good day jobs so we didn’t have to struggle like many other club players.
We were also able to record CD’s, and made three of them over the years. We also met one of Dave Roth’s engineers who had his own studio, and through him we hired Gregg and Matt Bissonette as our studio rythym section, which was great.
Long story short, our BluesTrain singer ran Andy Brauer’s cartage and rental business, and when he retired in 2005 we bought him out, and started Hollywood Studio Rentals.
The cartage and rental businesses were not very profitable, but we eventually rented two 15,000 sq ft warehouses, which we stored touring band’s gear. We had Van Halen, John Fogerty, the Eagles, System of a Down, The Goo Goo Dolls, Robert Cray, Daryl Jones, and most of the A list studio guitarists like Luke, Michael Laudau, Dean Parks, Michael Thompson, and Carl Verhyen.
We eventually built out a recording studio and drum tracking room for Kenny Arnoff, and rehearsal studios for the Goo Goo Dolls and John Fogerty.
And few years later we bought out Drum Paradise, and got Vinnie Coliuta.
At any rate in 2013 my partner bought me out and my wife and I retired to Hawaii, where we still play blues and jazz to this day.
Cool
Fantastic!!!
What a cool story. I've seen Kenny A's space, now I know the back story!
I was running around New York City in the 80's. Still a vibrant music scene. Rows of music stores on 48th street. Stores dedicated to instruments, repair, sheet music, showing off your virtuosity in the guitar room, celebrity sight seeing, and just the hang.. You'd run into BB King at Manny's picking up a new amp. Michael Brecker walking up the stairs to sax repair joint. Art Farmer checking out the trumpets at Giardenelli's. 1st and 2nd generation bebop musicians were still around. Kids out of music school would work the front desk at the music stores. All the horn players had studio work. Remember when records had horn sections? We would jazz club hop from the Village Vanguard, to the Blue NOte to Barry Harri's Workshop and see all the studio musicians checking out all the jazz greats. 48th street was more than a row of music stores. It represented the heart beat of the New York music scene. Musicians, repair men, scores of every kind. A whole industry revolved around music. Rockefellars decided to build a garage and before you knew it. It was gone. The bebop musicians started dying, the studio work started drying up, and the age of Digital technology arrived. And here we are..... where the hell are we, actually? The great unknown. A societal transition that is being reflected in the music and music business. I miss the good ole days but the one thing certain in life is change. Gotta role with the times. Whatever that might be.
The upper crust killing art for financial prestige rings.
In my (admittedly much smaller) metro there used to be 5-6 large music stores within a 15 mile radius. My own suburb had at least two of them. There used to be 2-3 ethnic music stores (selling Celtic and other instruments) in 2000, today there are zero. The 2000's seemed to mark the start of the general decline. Now there is only one large music instrument retailer in the metro, and a handful of smaller music instrument shops here and there, and they seem to be struggling. As for music venues, that number also nosedived. In my suburb the number went from around 15 or so in 1990 to zero today. Life is indeed change. I guess for many of us, you just feel good that you actually were around when all of the stores and venues still existed.
NYC in the 80s was a lot more affordable!
Someday there will be a music revolution, a comeback to music that is alive again. It will happen. The digital age has seduced us for a time but the human spirit will make a comeback and there will be part of the population that will seek out real music being played without digital intervention. Perhaps there will always be a portion of the population that will be seduced by the marvels of the digital age, but there is real LIFE in the analog sphere.
lol. I live in New York. Night and day when talking about affordability
Being a full-time art director / graphic designer for 30+ years I can fully identify with this conversation.
you’ve done well 👍🏻 i haven’t played a serious gig since the ‘90’s … when we had poker machines allowed to go into all the pubs.. and since then mostly all the pubs are now corporate owned.. like mcdonalds. and just about as interesting.. 🙈
Wow..yeah man.. I worked for a design studio and started my career in the mid-eighties and used to work as a paste-up artist/graphic designer got a small shop in Pittsburgh, right around the time that the Mac came on the scene.
We did everything old-school.
Typesetting, stat-camera, paste-up, rapidographs for line drawings..😆
Check out a documentary called Graphic Means if you haven't seen it already. One of the funniest parts is when one of the guys in an old training video on paste-up gets his type galley caught under his Mayline.
Of course it's only funny because it used to happen to me all the time...
My dad came out of the NY jazz and big band scene of the 1940s. He was a total middle class musician his entire life. My dad did a few sessions, some TV, and he was in the background of a movie once, but mostly he made a living playing live. He played the Catskills and Vegas for awhile in the 50s and then ended up in South Florida in the heyday of the big Miami Beach hotels. He gigged usually 6 nights a week even into the late 90s, and taught lessons out of our house here and there. There were enough retirees in South Florida who wanted to keep dancing to the music of their youth that he had plenty of work. The musicians union helped us have health insurance. We were never rich but he made enough to support our family. He bragged until the day he died that he never did an honest day's work in his life, lol. He felt bad for younger musicians because people weren't hiring live bands as much over the years and there just wasn't the work available.
Still some great music out there in small places...much harder to get out of those small places these days. Musicians, just keep grinding...Support local live music!
There is definitely a ton of great music coming out all the time it just requires people to find it.
I never comment on UA-cam videos, but on the off chance Rick reads this - these last coupe of weeks you have done a couple of videos explaining the inner working of the music business, how contracts work, how fees work, how its good and bad, and that is all totally fascinating. I would love to have more interviews with session players and explanations of how the industry worked in the past and how it works now. Really interesting to a total outsider who just enjoys the finished product. Thank you.
👍
100%!
You should check out Jared Leto's interview concerning"360 deals"nowaday's.That's pretty much where we are now.
Our Daughter at 18 played bass in a very loud punk rock band in Seattle. We learned through her Facebook page that they were planning a West coast tour in the summer, I think it was around 2008. We were very concerned both for her safety and that they had planned to play somewhere every other night and there was almost no time budgeted for travel or rest. She managed to borrow a neighbor's old 70's Suburban and somehow they got 4 musicians and their gear to fit. I was going to put my foot down and squash the whole trip but we decided that since she had spent some of her senior year battling cancer that I wasn't going to deny her the once in a lifetime experience of rock band road trip that would take them South to El Paso the over to San Diego and back up the coast to Seattle. I was worried sick the whole time but also a little envious as I was in a band at that age but never had the balls to hit the road like that. She was in a few bands after that but like most of us has settled into a successful grown up life. Good on her and her friends for following a dream. I'm sure the memories will last forever.
FYI shows in a different town each night with no time budgeted for rest is the bog-standard DIY tour experience... they weren't planning poorly, they were doing the thing the way it's done
As a working band, this is also hits home. Doesn't matter your quality, only matters if your making someone money, and only then can you get the opportunities to move up the ladder.
I guess join the investor class 🤔 so you can have the freetime and money to be a freelance musician?
Tim is the quintessential session musician of our time as well as a stand-alone guitarist/talent. He does it all, plus his own unique thing. One of the most underrated artists in the guitar realm.
Hi Rick: I was one of the first female recording engineers in the biz at Mediasound on W. 57th St in NYC and then at Power Station. I was trained by Bob Clearmountain and Tony Bongiovi. I worked with many artists in including Ramones, Talking Heads, Eno, Sinatra, Mick and Keith, Laura Nyro; the list goes on. Also worked with the NYC 'wrecking crew' on a weekly and sometimes daily basis. and at the same time played in the synth punk band Comateens and other new wave groups. I sang with Buster Poindexter and was a founding member of the all girI group Venus Fly Trap with Lisa Lowell and Soozie Tyrell (recently touring with Springsteen). Got lots of stories. Love your show!
Wow!!! Amazing stuff! 😮
You're literally a LEGEND !!!!! I would love to hear or read or watch those stories !!!!
c‘mon rick! we need the ladies.
Name Dropper DeLuxe!
I just read an article about Carol Kaye and her fight to support her children while at the same time making her way in a very male-dominated music world and it really impressed me. You must have some great stories to tell!
I was a "middle class musician" for a decade. At one point I was playing in 5 bands at once. My main band was signed by a label for a minute and then split up shortly after. I have had 3 songs published, one recorded 4 times, and reserved twice. I've played on three albums and wrote at least half of the songs on each of those albums . . . one of those albums co-written with a Grammy Award winning writer.
And today? I haven't played in public in a dozen years. My last shows were in Nashville. Young fools play out now. And they sadly have no idea what they are missing when they do. My band regularly pulled in about 50 people to any show anywhere, and weekend shows, we would pull in about a hundred or so. We made decent money. We played original music. We had fans that would follow us anywhere we played within a couple hundred miles of home base. We had roadies that helped us for free. We got them free drinks and dinner in the nicer places we played, but no guarantees. We ALL did what we did _because we loved the music_ . We loved the kinship, friendship, and fellowship of like spirits being on the same wavelength, at the same moment, on the same ride, for a few hours of escape late in the evening.
{edit for paragraph} I went back recently and did not recognize the place. Those kinds of fanbases no longer exist. If video killed the Radio Star, then the Industry killed the spirituality of musical communities everywhere. Now? The core of my last community still gets together once or twice a year on a riverside, in and around a rental house where we commune the old way, writing, singing, playing, canoeing and kayaking, talking, loving . . . we live for those weeks. We even invite a handful of our hard-core fans from back in the day.
Man, this is overwrought and frankly it's sad to see people agreeing with you. Just because you can't see today's vibrant and rabid fanbases across all genres of music, regardless of location or venue, doesn't mean they are not there. To suggest that "the Industry killed the spirituality of musical communities everywhere" is ridiculous. I bet if you tried, you'd find a musically gratifying performance and inspiring musicians and fans within a stone's throw of where you live.
It's not the same...
@@voodoochili12 Overwrought? Did you read the title of the video? I played in the tempo and key of the original content creator's choosing. It is unfortunate if you can't follow that vibe. He is an excellent content creator.
WADR - I lived in downtown Nashville for the last 12 years of my working careers.
1. I can and have found " _musically gratifying performance(s)_ " anywhere in the world. And I've lived in 6 different countries on four different continents.
2. I can and have found " _inspiring musicians_ " in all of these places.
3. I AM a fan. And of several bands whom I support in more ways than the average fan does or can. And I meet fans just like me at those places. It is THOSE fans, and THOSE musicians for whom I lamented. I hear their complaints. And, despite sounding like the cliché old man with the " _back in my day_ " stories, I tell them truth and give them a brief example of an analogous experience that they missed out on because it does not exist any longer.
None of your premises supports your claim that my statement - " _the Industry killed the spirituality of musical communities everywhere_ ", is " _ridiculous_ " . If you would like to provide some evidentiary support for your *ridicule* of another person's lived experience, feel free to provide it.
I appreciate your reply, despite it's ad hominem nature. Unlike you, I will not passive-aggressively insult those who agree with you simply because we differ in opinion. Best regards.
@@gp92510 Yeah.Your right. Its not the same. Probably never will be again.
@@voodoochili12 Sounds like you trying to convince yourself or something. Or you can't follow her point.
Great conversation, guys. I grew up in LA area, I was 13 in 1968 so I can totally relate to Tim's comments about "heydays." Another cool thing was that at that time, it was possible to see up and coming artists at small venues--case in point, I saw Linda Ronstadt in 1971 at the San Clemente High School auditorium for $5. Saw so many bands in 1971-72 for $10 dollars a shot. Even the Troubadour in the early 70s was pretty reasonable. One thing to clarify, for any younger folks, is that rents, costs, etc., were enormously lower as a percentage of income than they are today. Wealth inequality has screwed so many. My first wife and I rented a two bedroom apartment in LA for $185 a month, which was a lot for us (we were earning a combined $950 take home pay per month). But still, it was possible to have a life.
I love these conversations that get people to start thinking about how we can find a "happy middle ground" between the efficiencies of the digital technology revolution and the quality of life for everyone. The technological revolution came about so quickly that those at the top took advantage of its benefits while leaving everyone else behind. The giant middle class is now starting to wake up to the realization that we need to re-structure business models that were developed at the start of the technology revolution, so that we all get a fair share of the pie. We need to find a happy middle ground that maintains the efficiency gains of new technologies but isn't structured as a business so that it leaves everyone out in the cold, except those at the top. Keep this conversation topic ongoing!!
And the digital revolution isn’t over by any means.
@@pmscalisi Someday there will be a music revolution, a comeback to music that is alive again. It will happen. The digital age has seduced us for a time but the human spirit will make a comeback and there will be part of the population that will seek out real music being played without digital intervention. Perhaps there will always be a portion of the population that will be seduced by the marvels of the digital age, but there is LIFE in the analog sphere.
@@quailstudios I'd love to think so. But I doubt it. There are things once lost, once broken? Will never be repaired. Pop music being one of them. The spirit is dead. When was the last time you heard about someone starting up a garage band? We did it for fun. We did it for the joy of making music. It was NEVER about the $$. We did it out of love.
@@davidowens5898 My son is in a band that is performing about every month. I go to see him every time. They write original music and play some covers. They love it. Is it fantastic? Well, the singer needs to get better, and the song writing needs work but they love it.
@@davidowens5898 I'm also Quailstudios David. I just happen to be on my other channel right now.
Being a full time middle class musician for almost 30 years, I feel blessed but always viewed it as 7 part time jobs lol !!! Thank you guys I appreciate you both:)
Right?! With an actual part-time job thrown in once in awhile (in my case)
Same here bro
Part-time funny ? is still a full 8 hour shift
My first job in 1969 was being a drummer in a local cover band. We played a lot in our small Texas town and learned how to play in front of our friends and school mates. That job put me through college, helped fund our first home and everything else we needed in early marriage. Now, there may be 3-4 gigs per years. I feel so sorry for young musicians, there are no places to play, no money and that is just the players.
Great video! I love these things.
The more I hear about these stories, the more I realize how blessed I am to be able to make a good living playing music full time these days.
Thank you, both. We have lost so much COMMUNITY. As people we need a community for all of its learning, support, networking, etc. Creative people thrive and draw inspiration from being in the presence of other creatives. I think the great disconnection of people from the frequent exposure to a like-minded community is the tragedy of our time. Disconnection is the root of the mental health challenges I experience and see all around me. Rick, you are blessed with a strongly connected group of friends; a community where you always have a place. For so many, there is no such place. I fear we are allowing technology to isolate us from one another. Replacing a person, in all of his/?/her beautiful and unpredictable complexity with a predictable mechanism is a terrible trade for so many reasons. You have done a very good thing in creating your channel, Rick. Every resource for bringing people together will be necessary to survive this time of disconnection. Thank you, Rick and Tim, for this important conversation. 💜
Well put. And were on the cusp of AI. Just wait to see what happens next.
Totally agree. It’s about having fun TOGETHER.
This is a great video! I’m a session player and songwriter in Nashville. I play gigs and do everything else from my home studio. I have to hustle every month but I make it work. I wish there was more for the middle class musician that Tim Pierce was talking about that would offer more stability though
Another great one. Before I make this all about me, I want to say thank you to Rick and Tim for your candidness, expertise and great spirits. I so relate to this.
I’m a couple years older than both of you. I wouldn’t change the period I grew up in for anything. It was so different and wonderful in so many ways. I feel sorry for anyone trying to do music professionally these days. It’s beyond hard.
I’m retired now, but I was always able to make a living. Being a drummer, I have always been middle-class at best. Had a fairly popular band in upstate New York, who got signed to a major label. Brutal story, but I paid my bills. Moved to LA. My first pro LA session was with Tim Pierce at a studio called Master Control in Burbank. I’m very proud of that. I’m sorry it never happened again.
I went on tours, recorded jingles, records, wrote instructional books, produced, mixed etc. etc. which altogether enabled me to buy a house. I didn’t think that was a big deal at the time but, turns out it was.
None of these things, with the exception of touring are viable ways to make money anymore. Even then, as a drummer… well, let’s just say unless you’re on the road (a lot) making decent money consistently your lifestyle won’t be great.
Not sure what the answer is. The world needs the middle-class. It’s the middle-class that drives the economy in every industry and the country as a whole.
OK, the old guy’s gonna sign off now. Thank you Rick and Tim. Love what you do.
Nice history ,glad you lived it while it was there..
Surprisingly, that was an encouraging comment. I guess because it validates my perceptions. Check out the movie The Legend of 1900. The end of middle class musicians began with the advent of recording.
Great friend of mine took a lesson from this guy and was not happy. Not a knock or a slam, sometimes things just don't go the way one expects. "Life Happens."
Frank...hoping you are enjoying the hell out of your retirement and that you, and family, are well!
Frank Briggs absolute monster drummer got the dvd and book 13 years ago still can’t begin to mess with some of those lessons
Great stuff Rick and Tim! I had the privilege of working with Tim for a week a couple of years ago with a major artist. No headphones, sitting in a semi-circle. Tim is not just a wonderful, versatile musician, but one of the kindest most inviting folks I’ve worked with. (I’m not an L.A. guy, came in from TN). He made me so comfortable and welcome. Grateful for that experience.
I’m sure he brings a great vibe to work with
Great Interview. Since you get paid by YT for comments, my local experience is as follows:
1. 1982, play a gig for $300-$400, free band drinks, for a 4 hour show in a town of 10,000 people that had 4 music venues. 3 days a week (Wed, Fri, Sat). You played a mix of popular covers and your original music. Did a tour of the southeast, did not make it (not good looking enough back then), but you could play anywhere.
2. 2023,, play a gig for $300-$400, no free drinks, for a 4 hour show in the same town, now 60,000 people, 2 music venues. One show week (Friday or Saturday) other days are DJ or Karaoke for a crowd 1/4 sized that are all drunks. You ONLY play covers, cause no one wants to hear original music. No way to "Tour" a region anymore, cause venues are too rare, and those that do exist don't know you, and they won't bother to check out your online content. Played all of 5 gigs in 12 months and 3 were private parties, despite being the best band in town.
3. Mid 2023: Done. Still have the desire, but at 60 year old, you can only play Sweet Home Alabama and Mustang Sally so many times before you are ready to burn your gear. I am sick of the lack of creativity in music.
Yep, that is EXACTLY what I am talking about, as are many others.
This makes me feel better and better about the fact that I play music as a hobby. I'm typing this from my day-job, but my band has a gig tonight and I'm super-excited to be doing it! I get to pretend to be a rock-star without enduring the drudgery of touring, and I get to go home to my own bed. The future of the music business is all business...a few people getting rich on increasingly artificial, uninspired garbage for short attention spans, but the future of MUSIC is alive and well and safely in the hands of those of us who'll never be famous or make enough from it to even consider making our main living from it. Today's best music is being made by us amateurs, and isn't that the ultimate democratisation of music? And the best thing that EVERYBODY can do for the future of music is to go out and support the hell out of those small-time, local/regional acts! They're the true heartbeat of music!
PS- Hey Rick, we're in the Atlanta area, you should come see us! :D
real talk
This is reality .
I'm an amateur guitarist in Atlanta. Where do you play? I'd pop up to watch.
@@dubois2.024 We've got another one coming up! Sweetwater Bar & Grill in Duluth, March 30. I think we'll be on first of three bands. Would love to see you there!
Beyond compression tricks or sophisticated harmonic analysis, this kind of in depth dive is what I enjoy the most on the channel.
Thank you for sharing such life experiences
Glad you enjoyed it!
My dad ended up in LA in 76 with Lola Falana. He ended up being asked to stay for a new show, Van Dyke & Co (Dick Van Dyke). He immediately transferred his Union Association from Chicago (Jingle Capitol of the Midwest) to LA. 2 weeks after picking up Van Dyke & Co, he picked up the Sonny and Cher Show (yes, he worked BOTH shows at the same time). It was definitely a Different Time.
So cool! How old were you at the time? Did you realise what a score it was for your Dad to do two shows like that?
Was he playing the Sonny & Cher show with JEFF PORCARO?
@@h5mind373 in 76, I was 7 years. My mom and I were still in Chicago. By the time we moved out to LA, my dad had bought a 3br house in North Hollywood for $65K (the last time it was on the market, in 2022, it sold in for over $700K). I went from Cold Chicago winters to LA with a pool in the back yard.....I was in HEAVEN. I didn't realize what a big deal it was at the time, unless I could SEE him on TV. The only time I got to see him was either when he subbed for Ed Shaunessy on the Tonight Show OR the Tony Orlando Special that I have clips of on my youtube channel.
Amazing! ❤
@@rhondawilkins_ Jeff Porcaro was with Sonny & Cher in the beginning, in 73+. Dad took over from Matt Betton (who went on tour with Jimmy Buffet which is why he gave the show up).
This content is priceless. Very educational. Unfortunately it indicates the music biz is broken. Thank you Tim and Rick.
The music business has been broken and corrupt as far as who gets the money, for decades. Only now in different ways.
"Unfortunately it indicates the music biz is broken"
What do you mean by that???
Capitalism is a broken system.
Music is just part of the larger whole
@@MattAngiono Actually the reason is that capitalism has become corporatism. This problem extends well beyond the music industry,
@fredjoel8113 corporatism is just a stage of capitalism.
The word says it all.
The point is to accumulate CAPITAL.
Corporations have the ability to accumulate more capital because they aren't alive and can accumulate forever.
The big fish can easily just consume the little fish.
Human beings can't do that.
But really, capitalism evolved into imperialism, which we can see has already occurred.
There's no such thing as a capitalism that is free of this process
Greetings from a small island - that was a fascinating interview you two!
I worked in music retail for nearly 4 decades and saw exactly the same thing happen in the retailing of music as in the creation of it. And despite the 'vinyl revolution' of the past few years, I just hate the fact that we've lost a vital part of our culture in the death of small record shops by the current industry model. The thing I loved about record shops was that you could go in looking for something you knew you wanted, but, because of say what was playing or a staff recommendation, you could come out with a record that could be a cornerstone of your life for years to come. I can't begin to tell you how many copies of 'Surfing With The Alien' I shifted back in the day (courtesy of reading about Joe in Guitar Player and then sourcing the import until it got a domestic release), simply because you played it in the shop and people's jaws dropped - they had to have it!
And that is all gone.
We were lucky to have worked in one of the world's greatest industries at a time when it was King.
My 64 year-old GF loves music. I introduced Always With Me... by Joe to her just a few months ago. She immediately loved it.
As a low class musician I was never alive. 😎🤓 Love it when you two get together.
Same. I could never be a hasbeen. I’m more of a never-was.
@@leonardticsay8046 I was a wouldhave been.
@@kingcormack8004 That's what hurts the most - we have the chops and the heart, but we will *never* get the respect because we are not "the right people".
@@Verdillac2 If it makes you feel any better, the right people are thieves.
In the UK, I went self employed as a musician in 2008. I've done over 150 gigs a year every except 2020/1 . I play as one half of a duo called Dew Barf. I play kick drum and hihat with my feet and guitar with my hands and sing. My buddy of 37 years plays bass and sings. We are pretty unique and look like the love children of ZZ Top and The Wurzels 😂. We're not rich, we get by. We use cheap gear and laugh at each other's mistakes. We have been approached by various people to elevate us to Glastonbury etc. Our answer is that we are not main stage material because the pressure of those gigs will destroy our DILLIGAF attitude. Happy doing what we do and think it's the best job in the world.
You are right ! Keep the faith !
dew barf? LOL
@@cheery-hex it's Cornish (ish) for Two Beards
Iam so jealous
Did The Wurzels break America? Ha; the very thought of it!
Never got that far but was a local guitar player who never wanted to stop playing. Eventually I started doing film scoring with guitar synthesizers and other sorts of work and created new age ambient albums with high tech guitar gear. 20 albums later I'm still doing it below the radar, my way. Not really part of the conventional music industry but I keep at it. I did get to perform at Carnegie Hall just before the pandemic so there's that.
I think Rick would be well pleased to see how wide is the spread of his channel …
I’m a musician based in the south of France and I love what he does for Music … Merci Rick !!!!
I've been at every rung on that ladder and sometimes, like Tim, within the same week. I did sessions and tours and local live shows based in California and Nashville. I'd play on a hit record and then do a crappy jingle the next day. I'd play a stadium with 30-50K people on a Saturday and then come home and do a $100 club gig. I toured with a country artist that had 2 #1 hits, about 2 years apart. As the record climbed the charts, we'd get picked up at the airport in a van, then an SUV, then limos. The hotels and catering got better. As the record had its run and fell back down, here came the SUVs and vans again... until the next #1... I now do IT for a healthcare company and have returned to playing weekends. I'm 62 and have a great marriage and home life & am lucky to have done it big time. I live comfortably, have good healthcare coverage and am once again the big fish in the little pond I left to go to Nashville. No regrets and wouldn't trade it for anything.
It's all about luck
Great session! I’m still booking gigs for the same amount I did in the 80s. That’s either a sad commentary about my career or the music economy or both. 🤣
This isn't just a good interview... It's priceless data for a young musician looking for work today in the industry... I came here (LA) to be a musician/songwriter in 1990... Back then the schooling was on the street... People were standing around on street corners playing eruption note for note through a pig nose amp and still not breaking in (They could sing too)... That was the biggest wake up call for me, the competition.
Did you end up "making it"?
I've been to Nashville a few times in recent years and I couldn't believe the level of virtuosity of these guys just grinding hard playing the honky tonk circuit on Broadway, and then just all over the place in the hotels, and places like the Bluebird, etc. Probably like the country version of what LA was back in the 80s and early 90s.
2 of my favorite people to hang out with on UA-cam (plus Rhett!). Notice that Tim says somewhere near the end of”I hadn’t become one of the top musicians yet at that time”. YET! Truth!! Thx to both of you, gentlemen, for another great video!
It's so lovely to see skilled musicians like you two chatting in front of us about things that I never imagined existed. Thank you!
I think the message here is we all need to change. The problem with that is there are a great number of people who are too young to retire and too old to change. Very sad to say that there is no such thing as a job for life anymore. I was forced to change track in my mid forties and it was hard. I really sympathise with all in this predicament.
You too? Lol
I’m a younger musician from the Midwest and one thing that’s a bit disappointing is it’s insanely difficult to get musicians that want to practice live or do things other than “well let’s just write it and do it all in pro tools and clean it later” . I want to play with a live band not with a bunch of bed room musicians (I have a laney supergroup and I want to play it loud 😅) and although it’s awesome to record and mix everything yourself with little hassle, I grew up hearing stories about being in the recording studios and playing in the moment , that when I finally got to the age where I could do that no one found it interesting anymore. Couple that with how insane housing costs are and how expensive practice studios have become, it’s damn near impossible to not fit into that style of recording/playing.
This is a fascinating insight. I paid my way through University as a middle class musician. Sessions as a reading bass player for TV theme and incidental music, commercials, demos, all of that. I took a gig on tour, playing for minor rock Royalty which almost killed my love of music. I left the business for many years, and now, when I would quite like to go back to it, all of that work has vanished. There is nothing for middle class musicians now. If your name is Leland or Pino or Guy or Tony, you probably have all the work you can handle, at a price you can dictate, but those of us who are not superstar players have no way of earning money that doesn't involve UA-cam, or lots of wedding gigs playing covers. Farewell middle class musicians
Dave Fanning, an Irish Radio presenter and music oracle, once said “ Unemployment brings the guitarist out in everybody “.
makes me so sad and reinforces what I always heard people telling me about being born too late (1988); always wanted to just be a middle class house keyboardist for somebody and/or touring and make just decent money and benefits...
@@DRUmBEaTTS what you mean by gigs and house gigs ? You mean rents are high? Or gigs as street playing and house gigs as bar performances ? I heard rents are unbearable in florida.
Thank you for providing these windows into the impacts of the changing music industry. Tim recently recommended a documentary on the Wrecking Crew which shows the rise and decline of session music in LA from late 50’s to late 70’s. This interview continues that thread from late 70’s to today. Very important work you’re doing.
This is a very informative and interesting discussion.
My son (22 yrs old currently) is a really musically gifted person. I have spoken to him many times about considering a career in music, but he continues to balk.
I was a professional musician (bass) in the late 80s through 2001 (I had broken my back and was unable to continue playing for about 10 years or so afterwards) and had a blast! I did however have a 'late start' with gigging much and actually playing professionally as I was a practicing alcoholic until I was 28, I got sober April 9 1990. However I continually rose through the local scene and 'ranks' in St Louis until by 1999, I was playing i in one of the few "big acts" in St Louis.
My son did not bow to the inherent alcohol/drug demons as I had - so he decided to play bass (I was finally getting my chops together again) at age 15 (in 2015), coincidentally the same age I started. Within 6 months he had learned virtually everything by Led Zeppelin, RUSH, and others and was working towards getting Jaco's "A Portrait Of Tracy" up to speed and beginning to learn more than a half dozen songs by Weather Report that Jaco played on.
I knew that he had/has the talent to become a pro musician, but I had been so far removed from the scene that my "glory days stories", articles, pictures, etc were of limited benefit to him. I started looking towards UA-cam videos by musicians (I found a good guitarist in England with whom my daughter took about 6 months of guitar lessons from via Skype which was interesting),trying to determine exactly what is possible now for a performing musician. My son also started looking to UA-cam and became rather interested in keyboards and home digital composition and recording. He started to prefer keyboard at this point and started learning rap/pop/rock, kbrd parts and also some Debussy, Liszt, and several other late 19th-early 20th century composers - by ear no less! (I was unable to show him anything other than the very basics of piano techniques - scales, finger techniques for various chord types etc). He still plays keys and continues to learn and is now composing what I would term "backing tracks" but I just don't think he sees music as a viable career option.
I would be very interested to hear about other musicians experiences and the possibilities currently available as to either playing or composing careers that are currently available, including any efforts towards getting youngsters (I'm now 60 yrs old) interested in pursuing musical careers - in an environment that's literally foreign to me.
Awesome video/interview and discussion Rick! Thank you 💖☕☕☕
Cheers guys. I pulled out my vinyl copy of the Crowded House album and there's Tim at the top of the list of additional musicians. That LP was a really big deal when it came out here in Australia in 1986. Good job 🙂
C House are sublime and timeless. ❤
One of the best records of the decade
Better be home soon was the first song I ever learnt on guitar! :)
I just checked iTunes and it does not show the back cover credits - only the cover art of albums. Another thing lost to streaming services.
rick needs to dive into Crowded House!
I was also born in '58. I experienced the great musical and cultural transformation Tim alludes to at the end. We grew up steeped in it. I'm very glad I was alive at that time.
But as to what's happened to the music biz, once upon a time I played what we called the circuit - a bunch of bars and nightclubs spread around - almost every town had one - and in order to get patrons, that is to say throngs
of young people out spending money while having a good time, these places served as venues, with real stages, lighting and often a decent PA system. They all hired bands, and they didn't get the bands unless they signed up with the musicians union.
So we could go out and earn a living playing these places doing cover songs for scale at minimum. If the band was good and got to be a draw, you'd get much more than that. Sometimes we'd demand a percentage of the bar's receipts on top of scale, and get it! And there was hardly ever a cover charge to get in. The places were busy, sales were good, the owners made money. And we helped them do it. And we made a decent living too. You didn't have to work a second job just to make ends meet. You got paid to play. It was how so many of us got to be accomplished players. Doing it night after night. You got to learn a ton of songs in a variety of genres (if you, like me were a hired guitar slinger and played with a number of different bands, which many of us did).
I miss those days.
BTW, just want to tip the hat here; you guys are both fantastic. Tim, I love your playing and your videos, like seriously. They are so great. And Rick, well, you really have become the Grand Poo Bah of this. It's truly a fantastic career you're carved out. I love the interviews you do and the subjects you delve into. Please don't ever stop.
Thats so foreign to me its hard to even imagine. Im over in St. Louis and the music scene is a ghost town, even the 'Popular' underground bands can't draw a crowd. I just switched all focus to online growth.
“Sadder still to watch it die than never to have known it, for you the blind who once could see, the bell tolls for thee. “ from Rush, Losing It. Truth is we had some special times late 60s through mid 90s.
Born in 59…yes, the 70’s to the late 90’s were awesome to be a musician. Got to meet and open for some names that people would know.
I really miss those days, but they’re gone because of greed. And my old fingers aren’t what they used to be either. I still play, and I still work in the studio, but it’s just for fun with my group of friends.
100% spot on. Nightclubs had live music played by excellent musicians for minimal cover charges. Great times for us
It was a hell of a ride till it disappeared!!! Man I had the time of my life.Had the privilege of playing out for over 25 years.
Aww c’mon, Mr. Beato. I just wrote a 26 page essay in which I refer to music’s evaporated “middle class” as such. And here, you’ve beaten me to the punch in publishing essentially the same point for reasons that are a little too similar to mine, which isn’t gonna leave me a whole lotta room for plausible plagiaristic deniability. Now, I’ve already cited you elsewhere in this essay on another loosely-related matter, but I’ll be damned if I have to do it again😂. (Shakes fist at sky incredulously).
Are you accusing Rick of plagiarizing you? Because it sure sounds like it. It seems to me Rick has enough of his own action going on. I haven't read your dissertation (obviously. I wouldn't even begin to know where to look). Is it posted somewhere? I'm genuinely curious.
@@alistersutherland3688plagiarism seems to be currently very popular 😂
@@pmscalisi As are accusations of it. And AI is nothing more than the most egregious IP and plagiarism scheme ever created. So it's only going to get worse. But as I said, Rick Beato has no need to plagiarize some unknown essayist. As if the essayist - or Rick and Tim - are saying something that isn't already widely acknowledged and well recognized within the music industry.
@@alistersutherland3688 I knew I'd get at least one or two of these comments. It was a joke meant to draw attention to a coincidental event in which I'd just been considering precisely what he'd brought up here - which stuck me as funny given the obscurity of the topic. It was meant as a self-deprecating parody of someone who'd be inappropriately bent out of shape at having been snaked out of his erroneous entitlement toward ownership of a novel concept. Now that I've desconstructed the humor, it's not anywhere close to as funny as it was to me a few days ago, but...whatever.
In any case, if you're interested in reading it, I'm happy to send it along.
@@heythomasj sometimes it can be difficult to discern in these forums. But sure, post a link. I'd be interested to read what you have to say.
Thank you for sharing all this!
Back in the 60s I was a kid in a church-based marching band. Our director was the first call trumpet player in Boston. He owned a little music store, taught us, did nightclub gigs for touring singers, was in the pit band for travelling Broadway musicals, was in the circus band when they came to town, and did general business gigs (weddings,etc.). And gave private lessons on trumpet. He worked all the time, and made a nice middle class living. Little of it exists any more.
I'd love to see Rick do a whole series on musicians that did what your director did. There are so many.
And the music was so much better for it. Even the formulaic stuff had a human touch, from writing to arranging to recording to the mix. All those levels of human touch added up to everything sounding like itself. DAWs make it so easy to sound like everyone else and incentivize using shortcuts (samples, autotune, etc.). It's hard to ignore what has been lost.
get your point about daws but the bigger issue is the songwriting. most of it is very lazy with little melody. very unsophisticated. compare Tears for Fears or Prince or Michael Jackson to the top 10 list. frightening!
Sorry, but DAWs are creativity neutral. If you are Finneas, you make great original content in a bedroom. The difference is the "how", not the result. The digital paradigm creates songs in vertical layers. Sure, interspersed samples can be dull and repetitive, but don't have to be. What hasn't changed? The creation and production of great songs takes real talent. That has always been rare.
@@chrisdick2305 Nothing is truly creatively neutral. Every mechanism makes options more or less available, and the norms that arise from that shape practical creative possibilities. We've arrived at a time when what the market elevates requires no kind of greatness, of vision, performance, or production. Use of samples (and acceptance of it) has created a creative compromise that is unprecedented and which disrupts what had previously been living participation in musical traditions. Now we have a sort of uncanny-valley effect, where it comes across in a similar fashion to greatness but is barren underneath the surface. "Remix culture" has offered little more than distraction.
@@kevgamble all of that and my preliminary feeling is that it's exactly because this kind of schooling in a real life environment simply isn't available any longer and much easier now to cut corners and get results quicker, _but_ at the expense of sacrificing the 'visceral' quality we all know and loved back then, because you had to really _commit_ to your aspirations, like Tim and Rick and apparently others here did as well. _That_ is what's sorely missing and it tells because one song today sounds like the next one, only names and faces (and outfit style) change....
@@wesboundmusic Very well said and I agree. There's no substitute for what you describe. Even those with more modest or less successfully realized aspirations produced uniqueness, because they had no other options. Nothing was going to make a note unless they played it on an instrument. Nothing would make the note again unless they played it again. And what that music ran through in the studio was different for all of them.
Fascinating conversation!
The entire music ecosystem from radio stations, music promoters/venues, labels, artists, music press has tanked from where it was in the 70s thru the 90s. It isn't coming back. This is the new normal. I love these conversations you do here even though it is fairly sobering.
I’m from Sweden. I played in a band that had been going on for like 10 years or more before i joined. We got signed to an american indie label and we played metal. We toured china among other places and each tour was the same. The tour money the label paid us was gone after half the tour, then we had to grab from our own pockets. I came back poorer after each tour. I had a full time job and kids back home and the rockstar life didn’t bring me any additional income, in fact it made me poorer. Eventually i gave up the rock star dream but it hit me that musicians are beeing ripped off by both fans and labels, nobody wants to pay for the art you create, they want it for free. Unfortunately real artists has to create weather their paid or not, it’s in our DNA.
People will happily pay hundreds or thousands for something mass produced in a factory - like a smartphone - but baulk at paying for the art that they're desperate to play on that smartphone.
It's now called "content " ftw
Another Swede here! What's your band name??
I have paid to see bands love many times. Now I can hardly ever afford it. So it’s more than fans not wanting to pay.
Your comment demonstrates the exploitation, the real sadness, even insanity, which now permeates the music machine. This creates a negative emotional feedback loop and it is ubiquitously blasted from speakers worldwide.
and yes, @winky, it's 'content' now so no one is taking responsibility for something going back to Ike Turner, who was conned into signing away his publishing rights and royalties; as Hendrix said,
"businessmen, they drink my wine, come and dig my earth; no one will level on the line, nobody offered his worth, hey,"
When Tim and Rick are in a room together, I'm here for it.
Always great interviews and guests, fascinating 😊
I love the credentials these 2 men bring to the table. Thank you for sharing your insights with us Tim and Rick. :)
When I started playing shows in 2010 full time and was able at minimum get $150 per musician in our band per show playing 4 nights a week around the north east. I was able to rent an apartment, pay loans, utilities, and save money at the time making at the low end $600 a week. Now you are lucky to get $100 a show and compound that with the sky rocketing price of living, there is no way to make a living on just live music.
I too was a middle class musician, first with a full time classical chamber group, and then as a freelancer. Was able to pull it off for about 25 years, then got into teaching full time. I was so grateful for the opportunity, but man it kills me to see what has happened to the gigs.
This whole conversation is absolutely fascinating!
Loved this interview! So fascinating!
I was 17 in 1970, so I can attest to how amazing it has been to witness the 'heydays' you mentioned. After many years of being a 'working musician' in the middle, I have also seen the gigs disappear. Every hotel chain had a band playing 6 nights a week, so you could work non-stop. That's gone.
I think what is harder to take might be the decline of an audience or market for music with more complex melodies and interesting chord structures. Also, I will now smile a bit more when I play the guitar solo from "Don't Dream It's Over"......on piano. Thanks for all you both do.
Amen Brother
Ditto - you could work/play/dance every night of the week - on 7 on. It is all gone now. Such a sad, sad development
True the dumbing down of society has affected many things
@@dennisp3314 Young people don't seem to want to dance anymore, not very inspirational when you're on stage. They stand in groups on the dance floor with a drink putting a hand in the air occasionally and yelling woo whoo!
Yes, but solo acts are still viable. Thats why i focused on fingerstyle.
Great interview, guys! I've been a working pro since 1972 and agree with all of this. My Hollywood mentor, the late Pat Hicks, told me to diversify my music business before I ever set foot in GIT in April, 1983. That advice paid handsomely for me as my wife and I were able to raise four children with me teaching guitar, playing gigs and writing about it for music magazines. I've added voiceovers and my podcast. The Band of One, which continues to allow me to share my knowledge and still get paid. It can still be done in 2024, but it's a lot tougher. I agree with Tim, growing up in the 60's and 70's was a priceless musical education and blessing!
fascinating conversation - thank you
A great conversation! Love you guys. Really interesting! Best
These chats with Tim are invaluable. Thank you!
I'm not dead yet. But some parts of me are. : )
It's really just the death of the middle class. Musicians included
@@sagetmaster4"death of a vanishing illusion"...
Eat some OYSTERS!!...From one guitarist..to Another!..
Opposite for me. I am dead, but parts of my body are still alive :(
I really enjoy your law blog. Keep lobbing those law bombs!
always a great watch.. keep up the good work
Great video! Glad you were able to shed light on what is going on in the industry!
Love this! I worked as a freelance assistant cameraman in the film business here in Melbourne Australia for 32 + years. Eventually, I was considered 1st call for TV Commercials, working with many highly regarded Cameramen, Directors & Producers, both national & international. The way Tim describes the 'Middle Class' musician is very similar to the way I worked as a camera assistant. During the late 80's & 90's when I was making a name for myself, the budgets for TV commercials were very big compared to what is being spent these days. The degradation of the film business is very similar to the way the music business has evolved into.
I worked as a freelancer doing stills - first newspapers, then magazines, then biz periodicals, then corporate mags, then annual reports, then...9/11 and the evaporation of budgets and massive layoffs in art departments. Digital further decimated what could be earned in stock image sales and the "creative reinterpretation", read: compositing, of existing images. Being a freelancer, I had no safety net of a union, pension pension payments, etc. I paid it all.
Watching a 30-second commercials has gotten worse. In the States.
It's a rappers and rap songs
@@missingremote4388the rap songs are easiest to produce and are far cheaper.
@@LoveGuitar63277 I agree with on the change to digital. With film, there was a need to be schooled in lighting, exposure, emulsion manipulation & post production for your images. When digital hit the scene, monitors were widely used so the notion of "what you see is what you get" made many aspects of image capture a lot more straight forward. Plus using film required a lot more discipline onset, as well as experienced crew members because film was an expensive medium.
I was fortunate to have a 'smarter than me' wife. She & our accountant, managed to invest our money wisely, while I was earning well. We always had insurance & our pension (superannuation, here in Australia) is healthy. If it wasn't for my wife, I'd probably be a fall-down drunk with $2 in my pocket & probably sleeping on couches!
Wonderful conversation Tim & Rick... really enjoyable angles.
Just an amazing amount of info and knowledge shared. Love all the nostalgia. Always great context Rick . You and Tim are great together.
This was a fantastic conversation to hear.
Thanks guys, that was excellent. I worked as a music copyist in New York in the 70s. We worked on beautiful paper with fine ink and held the belief that if the parts are beautifully written, the players would play better. True. Show tunes and pop songs paid the rent.
Hey Rick love your stuff! It's really sad the death of the working class musician is upon us.
Excellent interview/ discussion
An absolutely fascinating discussion... :D
Thank you..
In the 80's I was a working guitarist an hour from Toronto. I was making more money per gig than
a lot of guy's are making today. Now I.m a 2 minute walk from lake Huron...converted a double garage into
a studio..had one client then covid hit...now I drink beer. Keep making these great videos.
burp!🎼burp🎼
lol right on man enjoy! ✨✨
My dad was a Nashville middle glass musician (steel guitar) from the 1960's into the 1980's. I remember him doing demo's for Mel Tillis in a little tiny rental house when we first came to town. I made a living in the music business through film/video and photography production in Nashville. But there is very little of the music business left in Nashville.
little left gosh
I have experienced and understand all these gentlemen have discussed. I was in my twenty’s in the seventy’s. I was a singer songwriter and also played in a cover band from the time I was 14. A friend of mine from our small town was much older than me . I idolized him for his ability , talent, and success. I dated his sister a little and he and I became friends . He sort of took me under his wing . He came to Memphis when Sam Phillips was still working . My friend went in the studio and told the receptionist he needed a job. Sam came out and said lets see what you can do son. So , he took his little amp and his guitar and sat there in the lobby and tore it up. So Sam hired him. He became a first call session man and an engineer. He later went on a formed a group who had much success. But, when he first started at Sun he would do jingles in the morning. Seems as though there were about three or four small studios . I would go with him. We would go to the first studio and the conductor would give him a lead sheet. He would set on with a small orchestra. They would run through it a couple of times and then lay down the final take. The scale at that time was about $30.00 and hour. It usually took no more than one hour. So then this process would be repeated ever how many times he was scheduled. By the afternoon we would head to Sun and work on a single or an album for some artist to late in the night. I’m an old man now but I still write and record. My little studio is my therapy place. I have medical issues and a lot of pain. But, when I’m in there playing and focused on the music, I don’t feel the pain. So, I make CDs and give them away to share my music. I put on the sleeve, “This is an imperfect and under produced work. No computers were involved in the making of this!” I use real drums and few effects. Folks ask me , “Why don’t you put your music on UA-cam or Spotify?” I tell them , “ I have no desire to get caught up in the social media rat race.” I certainly have a great deal of respect and admiration for you both. It’s great hearing your music and stories. Cheers!
I very much appreciated this interview and interaction. 🎧 Love hearing your stories and about your experiences in the music business.
This is gold. I could listen to the two of you talk music business stuff for hours!
Don't Dream its Over is such a stellar tune! Love the guitars in that song!
LOVE IT! GREAT VIDEO! GREAT TO HEAR THE HISTORY.
Great conversation! Those were the days!
Wow, Being a musician from LA in the 80s and 90s, you guys just described my life on just about every level! Accurate to the T! Thank you gents!!!
Mondo! 😀
I could listen to a whole episode of Tim going over his solos for those Rick Springfield records and stories from that time. I grew up on those records, and was little kid who would just stare at the tour booklet, and I always thought that dude with the hat playing guitar was so cool. I'm so glad I get to see that guy talk guitars and the music business. Seriously, if you're a fan of Tim's guitar playing and aren't familiar with his work on those Springfield records, you should check them. And some of the music on Rick's "Living in Oz" and "Tao" sounds like poppy early avenues to what became Nine Inch Nails. Distorted rock guitar and arpeggiated synths on top of heavy electric drums.
i always thought it 'funny' that RS didn't play on his USA songs... he was an Aust (skilled) star
Fascinating conversation. Tim is great.
Another excellent conversation filled with insight and experience.
Thank you both 🙏🏻
With stuff like auto tune and studio magic, anybody could be on the radio today. Back then, you had to be GOOD. That’s the major difference in my eyes.
I'm a visual effects artist working from home across the valley from Tim. I love watching you guys talk shop. As someone in the entertainment business on the TV/movie side, I'm seeing a lot of the same themes in my world. I love that you guys have figured out another, more productive way to pursue your love of music that's not reliant on the old crumbling system. While I too am glad that so many tools have been democratized, I do miss the romance of the old days. That said, I was at the Roxy last month and it was packed. Sunset still has some love to give. People do still leave their bedrooms!
Tha best thing about this is: in an age of quick clips and social media isolation, you two take the time to sit down face to face and chat. Awesome! The community you’ve formed with Rhett and Keith Williams etc. is really fabulous. Thank you.
Great content Rick. I love the show and learn a great deal about the music industry as well as artists and songs we have loved forever.
Here in New York many club gigs pay whatever people put in the tip jar. And that's it, without a house guarantee. It's busking in a venue, and an easy way to lose money if one pays side musicians decently. Related is that cover charges have not at all kept pace with inflation. Basically the monetary value of music for most people has declined. It's not surprising given all the other entertainment options, the decline in music education in schools, and just supply and demand, with a lot more musicians in relation to people willing to pay to hear them.
One of the issues is sound violations. Restaurants are often near maximum just from the voices. There is just no way to get the music louder than the crowd without having a sound violation.
As an audio engineer coming up in the 90's I could see things changing quickly. My first big assisting job ,tracking at Skywalker Sound paid $25 an hour. Music budgets shrank so I moved into post production where in a major market the room rate was $350 an hour with picture lock. The engineer would make 20% or the room rate. But then video and film budgets fell. So I moved into surround sound post production for video games and rode the wave. The sound budget for a top video game at the time was over 1.5 million dollars. Now today music competes with so many other media you can see how music would be on the losing end of the deal.
Great conversation!
Love your stories Tim, thank you for sharing. LA music history is fascinating! Thank you Rick too!