Exvangelical’s Unique Deconversion Story Identical To Every Other Deconversion Story (Babylon Bee)
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- Опубліковано 4 чер 2024
- Struggling with your faith? Pondering a deconversion? Well, the Babylon Bee created this satirical exvangelical -- who has barely thought about anything she’s ever believed -- to help. But to help what? Make a point? Have a laugh? To help former Christians learn how Christians view them? Or reenforce problematic stereotypes and communication gaps? Or all of the above?
Exvangelical’s Unique Deconversion Story Identical To Every Other Deconversion Story
• Exvangelical’s Unique ...
Paulogia Deconversion on Neil 604 Atheist
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Thank you for covering this! For me, one of the most galling things about this jab at exvangelicals is how hard it's punching down - which is one of the most problematic parts of Christian satire. With this shallow portrayal of them as vapid youngsters arrogantly tossing out a faith they simply never understood - and even explicitly saying this is ALL their stories - it's all but explicitly telling the communities they're surrounded by to understand them even less than they already do and be harsher and more dismissive than they already are. I'm currently working on a video using the Babylon Bee as a case study in why Christian satire is fundamentally unfunny and uncomfortable, and this has given me even more to think about.
I'll look forward to that 😁👍
Another idea for the pile.
Look into christian radio. I know, that's a broad topic. But from what I've heard, a lot of the radicalization of evangelicals over the past decade or more has been centered around news briefs aired on christian radio programs.
It feels like a sorely overlooked topic in this space. Like there's a secret Fox News that lots of people know about but nobody really has an idea of its impact or scope.
Half the time I hear something outlandish from some evangelicals, when I hunt it down it inevitably traces back to some conserva-christian "news" org related to places like Moody Bible etc.
All hail prophet of Zod
As a gay man who was raised IFB, I can’t wait to see that video.
"fundamentally" unfunny 👍
It's amazing how a culture that reveres personal testimony is so quick to discredit their own people's stories the second that they don't line up.
Yes a million times over!!! 😭
There's a classic example of this in Pinecreek's recent video that is well worth watching : ua-cam.com/video/-SOMEs6g4r4/v-deo.html at around 10.00.
It's precisely why others call it a cult. Anything that harms the community is an outsider and must be dealt with accordingly.
They never had a method, they only had the conclucion.
AMAZING = PREDICTABLE
The bite of satire kind of gets lost when the person saying it actually believes it
Gotta love a Poe.
It reminds me of that Matthew West song about modesty.
I just head over to the original video. the fans there thought referring to someone who never did anything wrong but was tortured to death i.e. Jesus, was a good response to the question "why do bad things happen to good people"? LOL! talk about being so thick-skulled they miss the irony.
and then there's another one who pointed out that calling out someone for being judgmental is the epitome of being judgmental. yeah sure, tell that to your Jesus. LMAO!
Bingo. The Onion doesn't believe the stuff it's writing, only that it finds it funny.
The issue isn't that they believe it, it's that the Babylon Bee is satire for people who don't understand reality or satire, it's why they can't be as funny as The Onion, they don't actually understand what they're making fun of in the first place.
Considering how many deconversion stories contain "I wasn't allowed to believe science or history," "My parents used religion to abuse ne," and "My entire family shunned me when I left," I WISH the stories weren't so similar. But the happy deconverts that maintain healthy relationships with their family former church peers aren't the ones in need of a voice.
Babylon Bee, if all the stories sound the same to you, and it's all stories of abuse, lying, and shunning, the fact that so many people left is on YOU, not THEM.
💯
my parents have done all three. but not so much the third one, for rn, because i have told them i am still Christain so they wont shun me. if i told them i was atheist...it would all be so much worse.
i agree with your points. its one
the Babylon Bee and also on all the toxic religious stuff.
The one about "not feeding the homeless" stung. I worked and volunteered at a drop-in (and who developed affordable housing) where many of the staff were atheist/agnostic, including the executive director. We provided cooked meals daily, snacks and had a food bank as well.
Yes, but they pray for the homeless so they are ‘doing their bit’.
The idea that they have a monopoly on charity is laughable when in fact their so-called 'charity' often comes with hidden strings and blatant lectures.
Aaannnd... Denmark, where I live. Currently there are roughly 732 people registered as homeless (roughly 6400 are homeless in total, but the majority of those are living with friends or relatives or in some of the homeless shelters). That's in the largely atheist Denmark. Meanwhile, in the largely Christian US, if I scale the unsheltered homeless in the US in comparison to Denmark.. well. Denmark has 5.8 million people, and 732 unsheltered homeless. For every 5.8 million people in the US, there are 6250 unsheltered homeless.
The largely Christian country of USA has almost 10 times as many unsheltered homeless compared to their population, compared to the largely atheist Denmark. That figure remains the same if you compare to the other largely atheist Scandinavian countries.
So actually yes, atheists don't feed the homeless, in Denmark at least. We make them .. you know.. not homeless to begin with.
According to the numbers given by the churches themselves, religious charities take about 75% out of the donated money, while secular charities take only around 10%.
@@MyReligionIs2DoGood Source?
The high waisted pants are obviously a reference to how she gets high and wasted now
Great powers of deduction sir! I raise my joint in your honor 🙂
The idea that evangelicals didn't think very deeply about their faith is spot on, I think. As one of those who actually did think deeply about his faith, I can attest that it was probably the biggest factor in my deconversion. Thinking deeply about the Christian faith, especially the evangelical version of it naturally leads to questioning its validity.
In fact, I don't think it's really possible to honestly think deeply about the faith and stay faithful over the long run without using dishonesty to ignore the doubts that inevitably surface. Note that this is generally a really long process. Someone thinking deeply about their beliefs aren't going to change them overnight. It took me most of my adult life. I started my deep thinking as a teenager, around 16, and didn't finally admit to myself that I no longer believed until sometime in my forties. It was very gradual. I stopped believing in young earth creation by my mid twenties, and began questioning the validity of the bible as the inerrant word of God in my thirties.
That's why research suggests agnostics and atheists have a fuller and broader understanding than believers of not only the religion they were born into but also world religions
Yep, its very true. I don't think its that they just don't think deeply, but that they can't. You can almost see it happen during a conversation. When many try, they run into a conditioned response that stops them. If you start a conversation that leads to them having to think about their beliefs more deeply, you can almost see the point of conflict and the conditioned response of changing topics off of whatever you were bringing up.
Sometimes I will say that it seems that evangelicals could not be willing to examine their faith very deeply, that they're unwilling or unable to really think about what they're claim to believe and what it's implications are, otherwise they wouldn't be so dumbstruck when someone points those implications out to them.
And former evangelicals will often tell me "Well, I used to be an evangelical, and I thought about that kind of stuff a lot."
Most will say that, in fact.
But all that really tells me is a bunch of people who *were* willing and able to think about it decided it was wrong.
@@shinobi-no-bueno
I find myself introducing myself as Catholic, so they don't know that I'm atheist.
I do this not because I want to known as a Christian, but I just don't want to associate my self with the unhappy, and usually degenerate people that are openly espousing their atheism.
Yeah, great, we don't believe in a sky dad, but did you really think it was a great idea to throw out the good, and decent values with it?
It took my 5 years of seeing complete depravity to find out why religion was created. Most people are just not that great when they govern themselves. Not everyone is bright enough to understand the societal implications of tearing that foundation away.
*I know. It sounds like a very Christian thing to say.
@@pharma37 You don't want to associate yourself with degeneracy, yet introduce yourself as a Catholic, an organization with an open policy of bigotry and a history of protecting sexual predators, despite claiming you're an atheist and atheism having nothing to do with morality and having no policy aside from "disbelief in god". Amazing. You might want to rethink that position.
Did anyone's church actually feed the homeless on Sunday? Mine sang songs, listened to the sermon, passed the donation plates, then drank coffee and ate cookies.
Their lawyers would likely advise them there is too much liability.
Im pretty sure my churches did stuff like feed the homeless on occasion but by far it wasnt every sunday
Not "Church" per se, but my dad was a member of a local Masonic Lodge. They worked with another Lodge in a neighboring town to host a "$1 Brunch" on Sundays. And once or twice my brothers and I helped in either the set-up or the clean-up (because at the time I, the oldest, was like 10 or 11 years old...not the age you want for someone cooking food on a hot stove unsupervised).
And if $1 seems like a lot, it went towards a ticket/lottery system where whoever's number was called got like half the money raised. (The other half went literally to buying the food...usually for the next week, but sporadically even being used to reimburse for food bought that self-same day if a lot of people came in during that brunch-period.)
----
Also, not "Church" per se, but I was the 'token atheist' at a Jesuit/Catholic college. And while I was too busy on Saturdays/Sundays volunteering at a local hospital or writing some essay/thesis/whatever, the prior Friday or Saturday night I would sometimes make sandwiches with the "Charity" club, which would then be given out to feed the homeless in the morning.
My church had a sign-up sheet to suggest people help out at a local homeless shelter, but it wasn't directly run by our church or anything. And then once a year for two days people at the church would do meat canning for charity in coordination with the Mennonite Central Committee.
So not like a weekly thing, but there was some effort there.
A church in Portland apparently fed homeless once a week with just an orange per person if thru sat in on a sermon my friend used to be homeless and sometimes has to have to talk about it it isn't as hard as you think once you get used to it but it is a lot more dehumanizing then you expect
I don't see where this video was a parody, I found it more to be a straight up attack.
BTW: I love the irony of them saying you weren't a "good christian" because you hadn't (critically) investigated your faith when (critically) investigating your faith is what lead to your deconversion. There is a reason that the best way to get someone to deconvert is to get them to read the bible critically.
Yeah, even after I left the faith I followed the Babylon Bee for a while because I thought their stuff was funny. But they've more recently turned to making fun of bad-faith misrepresentations of things their evangelical base doesn't like to score points with them.
I know, "I never looked closely at my faith, but then when I did I left it behind" is *really* not the criticism of the exvangelical they though they were making.
People often don't find parodies of themselves or their beliefs to be funny, and often perceive them as attacks. Having watched the BB video myself, I saw it as a fitting parody of many exvangelicals, especially in the younger generations (under 25 years old or so) and I found some humor in the representation. I have never identified as a theist of any kind, so the parody is not directly reflecting any part of me for me to see it as an attack.
The parody operates off a generalization of exvangelicals, but as with any generalization, there are going to be a fair number of people that don't wholly fit in with all the traits that they are being clumped in with, but most of those traits do apply to most of the people that are being generalized.
From my own experience, many exvangelicals (and other atheists in general) rarely provide detailed responses to things when they should. For example a theist poses a question to atheists, and they respond with "because science" instead of actually citing anything or providing a proper explanation. These are the type of people being parodied in this video. They might very well have good reasons for having left their faith, but they either don't know how or don't bother to present those reasons to others in a convincing manner.
@@daltigoth3970 The many exvangelicals you cited as rarely providing evidence or answers: I think context may shed some light on this. If you're speaking to someone you know in person they may be deflecting as they don't want to alienate or offend you or others present who may be religious, or they could think you're questioning them as a way of attacking their viewpoint rather than asking an earnest question, or perhaps they're tired, bored, or busy and just don't feel like talking about it. If it's someone you're speaking with online, the could've just been making an offhand comment and didn't mean to open up a conversation about the truth claims of a specific religious standpoint.
I suggest these examples as in my experience most atheists will respond with detail or at least with enough info for the person they're speaking with to do a basic internet search to understand where the atheist is coming from. It seems to me that most religious people asking atheists questions tend to not actually respond to what an atheist is saying, so why would an atheist in that position waste their time with someone who seems to be a dishonest interlocutor?
Both of our observations may be skewed just depending upon where we hang out and the types of people that gather in those spaces. For instance, my observations are based mostly on religious people commenting upon content that looks at religions within an agnostic, non-religious, or counter-religious framework; I'm sure most religious people commenting upon that sort of thing are there specifically to counter the subject matter and are a bit abrasive to begin with. If you're a person who mostly consumes religious content, ask yourself: what type of atheist is going to hang out there and what might their purpose be?
@@MM-jf1me Wow...that all just sailed right over your head. You are arguing against a position I don't even hold because you took the entirety of my comment out of context. I was specifically referring to the parody of exvangelicals that is being discussed in this video, not about the people themselves. Many exvangelicals (and other atheists) present themselves in exactly the manner that is being parodied, which is why the parody is funny (at least to those of us that are not being parodied). How those same people might respond differently in different settings is irrelevant when this is generally the way they are perceived because the majority won't engage in deeper discussions in the places they have made their offhand comments.
Now see, if I were one of those people, I would have stopped after the first sentence rather than explaining why my comment went over your head. That would also be kind of a troll thing to do, as I could get a laugh about you being "dumb" and not understanding why you had missed the point of my comment, and then you would write a 5 paragraph response trying to break down my comments further and I could respond with a "you still don't get it, lol" and keep you going like that. This is the behavior I often see from atheists on the internet, and that is what is being parodied. Yes, there are almost always others like me that are willing to discuss things in detail, but the majority are giving those troll-like responses.
My sister, a delusional catholic, recently started reading a book written by a priest to explain atheists like me to catholics like her. She sent a text saying she was reading it and then went on to lightly mention the Kalam Cos. argument. It was clearly the first time she'd come across that argument and she thought she had a zinger. I explained Kalam to her, its origins, why it doesn't help them, and then basically (and correctly) guessed the other strawman arguments that made up each chapter for the book. They really think we haven't thought of any of these things.
My parents are the same way. They are both very religious, although they weren't very religious while I was growing up. Every once in a while, they will see an article about some random "proof" and assume its something I have never seen and that it will instantly bring me back to Christianity if I hear it... they've presented the Kalam, Pascal's wager, the Watchmaker argument, irreducible complexity, archeological evidence for Jesus or the Ark or the tower of Babel etc, "you just want to sin", "where does your morality come from?", "you're just angry at God", etc, etc, etc... all as if they were brand new and rock solid arguments.
Then when I tell them that I've already looked at all of it before and present the counters/corrections/debunks for x argument, they get angry and pretend that I'm just dismissing things without looking at them.
@@timeshark8727 my parents loved presenting pascals wager as if that prove or says anything meaningful.
"She thought she really had a zinger" cracked me up. Thanks for that laugh! :)
I can imagine her being really excited to present you that 'stunning' argument, and your thoughts when you heard it (like, *sigh* 'not that one again'). :P
I'm not sure which one is funnier when a Priest councils actual married people about marriage, actual parents about raising children, or teaching other people about supernatural shit he gets paid to teach?
This so reminds me of my own Catholic sister!
Unfortunately, I have a sneaking suspicion that if certain Christians found out that people weren't going to hell, it would just wreck their whole day.
You are so right. There is such a strong element of sadism and hostility in evangelical Christian culture, that I suspect it is one of the main psychic drivers of that culture complex.
True. I wouldn't be surprised
😂🤣🤯
The easiest way to get them sputtering is to ask how they would feel if they met non-Christians in Heaven, or to explain why an all-powerful God couldn't let non-Christians into Heaven if He wanted to. If they wouldn't be unambiguously happy to see non-Christians in Heaven, then they don't actually care about our souls. If they insist there's no way God would ever do that, then they don't worship God, they worship their church/in-group.
I love how they missed the point of all the deconversion stories being "exactly the same." It's well acknowledged within the exvangelical community that deconversion stories are all eerily similar.
It's not "Hey look at me and how unique and special I am for this!"
It's "Hey, look at all of us who had similar experiences to yours.... you're not alone in reaching these conclusions. You're not alone."
And it's two fold in redundancy of exposing the abuse all many of us experienced/ calling for the church to be better.
The similar stories aren't a comical bug of deconverted misplaced self-importance; they're a grave warning to the church.
💯
Absolutely
"they missed the point" or you missed the joke?
@@xenn4985 nah.....I got the joke. It's just a bad joke because it's based on their misunderstanding the point. If their misunderstanding was the joke it would at least be a better joke, but that wasn't the joke.
@@benmiller537 Your lack of self awareness is almost funny, so that's something.
It is INCREDIBLY disingenuous for religious leaders, who thrive off of an authority-based model, to try roasting deconverted Christians for "not looking into it for themselves"
Considering the things they say and write sometimes, I don't really blame them.
"Her nails are black. Like her soul."
Literally choked on my lunch laughing at that one!
This Babylon Bee headline still cracks me up years later: “Children's Ministry Installs Dedicated Trash Can For Throwing Away Your Kids' Crafts On The Way Out Of Church.”
That strikes me as slightly odd, because I grew up in a house where any crafts brought home from school, no matter how inane or basic, were kept around for years. I'd always assumed this was a normal thing, where parents just kept most of that stuff because "their child touched it, so it's special". To think that there are people who throw all of that stuff away is... strange.
Calling the Babylon Bee "like the Onion" would imply the Babylon Bee was actually good at satire.
Honestly some of their posts are hilarious and absolutely roast Christians. I like it.
Well hence the "but for right wing evangelicals" part, since that will reduce the quality of any humor effort.
@@JackgarPrime yup.
The Cuomo brothers one was half decent I guess...
@North Sea Pirate Eh you're overplaying South Park's satire there, early on it was good now it's just written from the perspective that everything is stupid, especially the people stupid enough to care about things or have opinions. Honestly, that level of fart-sniffing above it all attitude just becomes grating.
13:20 - - The "Poisoning the Well" tactic not only aims to downplay and discredit those who have left, but, gives those who have "kept their faith" a sense of moral superiority and ensures they are less likely to question their faith.
Deepening them in the mentality of Us vs Them.
Moral superiority is a trademark of the Babylon Bee. It oozes out of most everything they write. Then again, that is appealing to Christians, especially of the Calvinist persuasion - the specific belief system of the authors at Babylon Bee
Yes, Christians definitely needed something to grant them some extra feelings of moral superiority. As if they don't fucking ooze it out their pores with every statement.
I love that Paul likely spent 10x more time thinking about this segment than the Babylon Bee did in making it! Awesome content as always!
I mean, that's kinda inescapable when discussing the Babylon Bee. 🤷😆
Lazy and shallow is their brand
Actually the Babylon Bee made their points in less time and with more entertaining results. They hit the nail on the head, while this channel just babbled on and on.
@Carefully Considered I think it was mark twain who said if he had more time to write his speech he would have been more succinct.
Probably not, the Bee's attention to detail and the subtlety and multiple meanings in their jokes take real effort and skill. The writing is excellent even if you don't like the premise.
Them joking about how all deconversions are the same is laughable
Like they don't constantly throw around stories of "hardened atheists" who were presented with some bottom line apologetics immediately convert or athiests who "hate god" or "just wanted to sin"
My final straw was learning of the early history of Mormons and Joseph Smith. Made me realize how easy it is fool some people into belief.
Not so easy if your focus is on JESUS. Turn your eye on JESUS, learn of Him for He is gentle, and full of grace, His yoke is easy, and His burden is light. If you keep your focus on JESUS you will never go wrong!!
@@johndoney2665 Our pasta, who art in a colander, draining be your noodles. Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day, our garlic bread, …and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. R’amen.
@@johndoney2665I can tell you didn't use your brain here
Evangelicals who sneer "Wow, you must have never thought about anything seriously before" should remember a few things:
1. It was Jesus who leaned heavily on imagery of sheep and children when describing his ideal followers, especially the unquestioning love and trust associated with children.
2. Protestants in general should remember that it was Martin Luther himself who said "Reason is the devil's harlot, who can do naught but slander and harm what God has designed."
3. No sermon ever ended with the words "Any questions?"
LOL - great third point!
Actually, the church I used to go to put a phone number on the bottom of the screen for people to text in any questions they had, and went through them at the end.
Granted, most of the questions were really more like people agreeing with the sermon or minor disagreements about phrasing. I sent some more serious questions every now and then, but they always got brushed off with something like “You just need more faith, then it will become clear to you.”
@@TheCount991 Jehovah's Witnesses provide you with the questions. Their study aids dish out religious propaganda in the form of numbered paragraphs with correspondingly numbered questions in footnotes at the bottom of the page. At their meetings, they publicly read one or two paragraphs then the conductor asks the correspondingly numbered question at the bottom then the sheep raise their hands, get called on, and regurgitate the statement or point written in the corresponding paragraph that was just read. Then they read another one or two paragraphs and this process repeats until the end of the article where there are 3 summary questions 😴
@@caribbeanman3379 just cant ask any other questions.
Point number 3 🤣
My mother, aunt, and uncle have avoided church and run a small bible study (usually just 3-6 people) since the pandemic started. They always have a prayer circle at the end. They live about 6 hours from me. Sometimes my mom will ask if there is anyone who needs prayer, and (I used to not but now) I will tell her if I know anyone going through a hard time and she will add them and their loves ones to the list. I don't believe it will actually change anything but I know they have good intentions and it makes me happy that they care enough about people they don't even know to include them. And EVERY TIME she will say they are going to pray for me too. I know it's because I am an atheist and they wish I would "find my way back to God". It used to upset me, like a small insult. I would think to myself that I'm trying to meet her in the middle on this by sharing people who they could pray about and then she throws in this snide comment. But, a while ago, I realized it wasn't that. She thinks I'm going to burn in hell for eternity and I am her child. Now a days I just tell her "I love you too" because that is where it comes from, love. My mother, aunt, and uncle are kind people with good intentions, and I can almost always get behind that.
The ol' "Thoughts and Prayers" is what politicians say when they're not going to actually do anything. It's a great way to leave guns in the hands of people who go on to commit school shootings, while also being able to absolve themselves from any blame for doing nothing, every f'kin time. "Hey, I prayed this wouldn't happen again, I guess god has a plan."
On a personal level I'm sure your mother and her crew feel like they're better people for praying. Maybe they lack the time or means to do something of practical help, or even phone or send an email for emotional support, but this salves their consciences. I'm not saying they HAVE to do something to help other people, but this is their way of doing nothing while also feeling good about themselves.
Next time I see a homeless person begging on a street corner with a sign that says "Anything helps" I'll wind my window down and tell them I'll pray for them. I'm sure they'll appreciate that.
@@ziploc2000 You nailed it there. Prayer is totally self-serving bullshit. Those prayers are simply to earn ‘brownie points’ with their deity and are no indication of actual love and caring. If they pray for other people this just adds to the piety.
Ziploc didn't nail it there. There's a huge difference between hypocritical politicians using "thoughts and prayers" to deflect from the fact that they don't want to do anything to help people - INCLUDING thinking about or praying for them - while still looking like they give a crap and people in prayer circles who may very well do a LOT to help others, but still pray for them because that's what they believe in.
I really feel bad for Christian family members who truly believe their loved ones will go to hell for leaving the church. Their logic is faulty, but their love is real and, as an ex-Christian, I remember the horror of fearing that many of my friends were going to hell. It's one of the many things that brought me to where I am now, but in the meantime it was heartbreaking. Christians who are both strong in their faith and in their love for their atheist family members suffer greatly. I don't respect their beliefs, but I respect their feelings enough to not dismiss it as political garbage.
You know, I try to keep the same level of respect for my Christian family members as I had when I was a Christian but that is not always so easy. My wife is a Christian and obviously I am not but when she says she is praying for me or for a test to go well in school, I just chuckle and say "thanks." The only anger I feel toward being a Christian in the past was how I was lied to but even then I know that my parents were just trying to do what's right in their eyes. Great video, Paul. I always appreciate your insight.
Agree. My story is very similar.
You & your wife are a monumentally important example of what is so vitally required today.
*The ability to get along with those who believe things that you do not.*
Agreeing to take the "high road" & learning to find middle ground seems to be a very low priority today.
And I also believe that, most sincere Christians are reasonable people.
Religion has been used in many ways to harm humanity. But religion has also been used to help better humanity.
I've always wondered why the Christian God would put such a _high priority on faith, instead of evidence,_
especially since he would have known that _believing things on faith would lead billions to fall for false religions?_
Thanks for letting me pontificate. lol
Take care Jerry.
@@moodyrick8503 sure thing. Lol it's rough sometimes but it is what it is. We both knew where the other stood before we decided to get married.
@@MrTossy You must be a patient man.
I hope she does not think that you are headed for hell.
That would suck.
Side bar;
I've always thought how interesting it would be, to make a modern sitcom about an atheist/Christian couple.
Edgy but honest, like a modern _"All in the Family"._
@@moodyrick8503 oh, I'm sure she does think I'm going to hell. Lol she told her pastor I just "have questions." To which I replied, "why did you lie to that man?" I'm sure she is holding out for the day that I come back to the Lord, which is highly unlikely.
Us rational athiests would call this Babylon Bee satire a "self-own".
I'm an atheist and jokes on them I became one because as a child I did heavily engage with belief. I've read the Bible 3 times and was determined to finish it in 5th grade. When I'd ask questions about it on deep theology and the implications of it, none of the religious leaders were interested in exploring those
My religious teacher - a priest (Catholic) - had this trick of saying something completely unconnected and while we (or at least I) was still trying to decipher the koan, 2 seconds later: “any questions? Okay ”. And that deep wisdom I was earnestly struggling to find … was just some deepity that had nothing to do with the topic, just a smoke grenade …
I remember asking him that God finds it better to stay with an abusive and violent partner than to divorce (or at least not live together) … same same same. No answer. Not even one from 101 apologetics. Worked wonders against any respect for him from me.
What a shocking eye opener it was when another teacher (some evangelical direction - the differences are not really visible to an outsider, and Lutheran, unitary and reformed churches work together) saying that “virgin” meant “had no child yet” (instead of “had no sex yet”).
@@advorak8529 I was Catholic for most of my life but in my case it was because I eventually realized that the apologetics I used to read from were not as convincing as I thought and some of them insisted that there was a literal Adam, that was my breaking point because I became fascinated with human evolution in college and to say we all came down from just two people, despite the evidence to the contrary, is hugely insulting to anyone's intelligence and then I realized that without a Fall and Original Sin Jesus had no need to die in the first place.
I realized that perhaps that's one of the reasons why we have YECs and guys like Ken Ham in the first place (one of my former parish friends seemed to be a fan of him, he threw me the "were you there?" mantra the only time I mentioned evolution to him) and that perhaps I was duped by the very institution I was very loyal to for around nine years regarding some things, mainly that it was perfectly compatible with science (it's not once you consider their reasoning on why they don't like gay people or why they oppose abortion and birth control so much, perhaps they learned their lesson from Galileo to better protect their PR).
@@monus782 You do realize that the Catholic church accepts the theory of evolution and teaches it in Catholic schools. So you may have left the Church for the wrong reason.
You were and still are my deconversion role model. You taught me that good conversations can be had and that I could let go of the anger. You taught me how to recognize my fundamental mindset as an atheist. Thanks!
Dang. Paul is definitely one of my favorites, but I don’t think he made this big of an impact on me. Good for you!
12:45 "Listen, if you've been REALLY properly indoctrinated, you'd never deconstruct that!" is basically what I'm hearing...
The weird thing about revealing my atheism to my relatives and siblings, was hearing the same arguments we see on these channels.
Especially bizarre is having one cousin justify biblical genocide... and the other biblical slavery
Who do you think you are that you should judge what GOD does? You should remember that GOD`s justice is perfect, and yours is not .
@@johndoney2665 'God's justice' is what people back in the Bronze Ages decided it was. From my perspective, you are asking me to judge the actions of something that doesn't exist. Might as well ask if I judge Zeus, Odin or Shiva.
So... you think slavery is justified just because the Bible says it is? Would you be willing to be my slave under Biblical law?
@@brunozeigerts6379 You keep putting yourself in the place of GOD, and the shoes don`t fit
@@johndoney2665 I am putting myself in the place of something that you can't prove exists.
I notice you didn't address my offer to be my slave under Biblical rules.
Rock of ages cleft for me, let me hide myself in thee. Let the water and the blood from thy wounded side which flowed be of sin the double cure Save from wrath and make me pure. Could my tears forever flow, could my zeal no languor know, these for sin could not atone. Thou must save, and thou alone, in my hand no price I bring, simply to thy Cross I cling. While I draw this fleeting breath, When my eyes shall close in death. When I rise to worlds unknown, and behold thee on thy throne. Rock of ages let me hide myself in thee
Some of these are actually funny. The "have you considered Science?" is painfully spot on for recent exvangelicals. Not gonna lie, having my Sundays, (also Wednesdays and sometimes Thursdays) free to do family and personal activities rather than Church/ Bible study/ Outreach is a major perk of reconstruction though it never was a factor in deciding to leave Christianity.
tell me about it, tons of Sundays were ruined for me as a kid in the 60's and 70's missing my favorite tv shows being forced to go to Sunday mass in the evening.. i was a *huge* fan of both Lost in Space.. ( the original series) and Batman ( the original series) .. thinking about it now.. both of those shows presented good ethical and moral dilemma's that were far more relevant and thought provoking, than what I was being forced to endure in church.
They usually fall flat with religious jokes for me, but their current events satire are usually pretty funny.
Only thing I would add is you are replacing logical( dare I say productive and enjoyable) things with that illogical belief and time consuming demands of - according to your own Bible horribly cruel and narcissistic all powerful yet uncaring about suffering god
The point is once you discover Science it soon becomes obvious that God is unecessary.
its unfortunate that so many people, from both sides, see this as a battle between A. science and B. "my personal invisible best friend" and that 'disproving' one, "proves" the other. While i'm guilty of being too evangelical in my atheism at the start, early on someone asked me what if evolution was disproved tomorrow. i thought for a moment and realized - wouldn't change anything: I wouldn't fall to my knees and start praying to Zeus, and neither would you. I don't disbelieve your claims, because this claim is better, i disbelieve your claims because you don't have adequate evidence. Disproving gold egg laying space turtle, does not prove the easter bunny is real.
"Her fingernails are black... like her soul!" XD
"Ideal room temperature.." I see you.
Having a abusive experience in a religious institution IS actually evidence against its claim of moral superiority. Like being raped by a trusted spiritual leader, and then dismissed or blamed by others using principles taught at church, should be a very legitimate reason to start doubting how good this religion actually is which provides most of the context for your trauma.
If even the respected AUTHORITY figures who are the most involved in a belief system, who claim to have the best source of wisdom and virtue, turn out to be abusive assholes, it would be really foolish carry on taking their word for it.
That's not true. You would need to compare the best examples of each and compare them. Hypothetically, if an organization had a reputation for authentic, outstanding moral character that exceeded the moral character of other organizations, would the occasion of one bad character spoil that standing, even while the other organizations had neither bad characters nor great ones?
@@criticaloptimist7961 yes, some bad anecdotes may be outliers in a large institution or community.
But I said hypocrisy of the leadership should be a very legitimate reason to START DOUBTING the moralistic system they preach.
The "college professor" bit refers to many Christian parents' deep fear that their child will go off to college and not only be exposed to other ideas contrary to how they were raised, but actually consider them and adopt them. I thought it was the best part of the satire (along with the girl putting the plant in her hair.)
In my case college planted some of the doubts that would break me out of the absolutist religious mentality I had at the time (and I'm forever grateful to my professors for that) and I remember some of the apologetics literature was specifically geared towards college students so that they wouldn't lose their faith in this period of their lives.
One of my former church friends was a creationist and all and he got through the classes by mentally blocking out most of the information he got and just remembering enough to pass the classes he had to take, I guess that's one way to keep faith intact.
It's also why they're trying to change how higher education works.
The Exvangelical Facebook group was extremely helpful to me when I was deconstructing.
Sad that we are indoctrinated before we are crawling and it can take a lifetime to deconvert. I got sick of listening to ridiculous answers to serious questions. I left overnight and the next day could not believe how ingrained I had been in judgment of others, moral superiority and smugness. It was very eye opening! Now I see things such as the “Ark Encounter” and see how the church builds monuments to their own pride, not to help the needy. My family, who I have had to cut ties with still believe their savior was a blonde haired, blue eyed white guy born in the Middle East. It’s ludicrous! They would persecute their Jesus if he ever came back. What struck me most is the fear they have of everything and try all they can to initiate Armageddon. One can only ask WTF?
I have no sympathy for theists who feel they're being "judged." We spend far too much effort in western culture in coddling bad beliefs instead of challenging them. All beliefs are subject to scrutiny, including mine. If your beliefs are sound, they will withstand scrutiny.
Very much so Ryan.. ask a Christian if they think a woman/girl should go to prison for life for killing a baby ( abortion) ..you can almost hear their brain grinding to a halt.
@@bonnie43uk implying that their brain was on in the first place for it to grind to a halt.
A more fair penalty would be to surgically remover her uterus.
12:47 i love this arguement
Paul : "They told me not to think about it and trust the word of God, when I grew up and tested those beliefs I found ALL they had was the word of God."
Apologetics : "Wait, you didnt realize that was all there was?! *Insert Leo laughing meme"
Leelo
But that isn't all there is. There's thousands of years of theology and philosophy to contend with.
I left Christianity when I discovered and accepted that the apologetics I learned didn't hold up to scrutiny. I wrestled with doubts for a long time before I finally investigated the other side instead of merely reading apologist answers to questions I hadn't even read for myself. Deconversion was a difficult process that even still contained remnants; for example, I had a friend pray for me though I had already come out as an atheist. Not all transitions are smooth for everyone.
Welcome to sanity …..
Thank you for sharing ❤️
That sounds very similar to my case except that I was Catholic and I realized that the apologetics didn't hold up when reading on them insisting there was a literal Adam we all came down from, despite the evidence to the contrary, and perhaps it was all a miracle. Shortly after I realized from reading Church doctrine that without a historical Adam there was no Fall so no Original Sin, and if that's the case what did Jesus die for then? Later I realized that perhaps I was duped by the Church regarding some things all these years and that really pissed me off.
My own deconversion was also turbulent and I haven't come out to some people, I keep reading some theology (and watch videos like this one) or try remember why I left in the first place because perhaps the only thing waiting for me is a good dose of gaslighting and I feel I have to be prepared to defend myself, and if anything to the inverse of 1 Peter 3:15 I should always be ready to give an answer in why I don't believe. I hope you're doing better.
Interesting. It was similar to mine. Except for the praying part.
If Evangelical Christians had their way they would take us back to the Bronze Age and or seventeenth-century Puritan Massachusetts.
I'd say they would give both the Islamic State of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the State of Israel, a run for their money, and even make them look like chumps.
@Lexy Blu But you see, the plan must come into fruition, so no matter how unsavoury their leaders might be, if it means getting them to their destination, it's all worth it in the end, God willing.
Imagine the 'Muricanized version of stoning disobedient children with the crowd shouting, "We will, we will ROCK YOU!"
I like how she keeps saying that she abandoned her faith. I never felt like I abandoned my faith. To me it felt like my faith abandoned me...
That’s a good point. One of the first things that started the process for me was the feeling that God had abandoned me. Not the other way around. My prayers weren’t answered, even when those prayers were just “please, show me that you are there”.
@@TheCount991 So you left God because He wasn't a machine to fulfill your wishes? That's a very common reason for deconversion and clearly shows a lack of understanding of what following God means or who God is. God doesn't want you to use Him as a wish machine.
@@x-popone6817 Is that what I said? No, it's not. You took one part of what I said and pretended it was all that I said. So let me clarify.
1. I said that it was ONE of the FIRST things. Not that it was the entire reason that I stopped believing. It was one of many. It was a very, very slow process, and I fought to hold on to my faith for as long as a could, and long after it was reasonable to keep doing so.
2. As I can remember, I never did those "wish machine" prayers. I trusted that his plan was good, even when that "plan" meant several people that I was close to suffering from, and some of them dying from, cancer. When it came to asking for things from God, there were only three requests. 1 - Please forgive me. 2 - Please just let me know that you are listening. 3 - Please give me the strength to get through whatever situation I was in at the time that I was struggling with (questioning my faith, health problems, dealing with deaths, etc) I can't know for sure if that first one was answered or not, all I can say is that I felt like I had to ask for forgiveness for the same things over, and over, and over, because I kept feeling more guilty about them, and felt like I had prayed "wrong" and God hadn't forgiven me yet. The second one never got answered at all, which was the entire point of my first post. Neither did the third one, unless you think that God's idea of "giving someone the strength" means to just ignore them until they have to just try to block out their own thoughts about a situation to get by.
3. If God was unable to answer those requests, then he is not as powerful as he claims to be. If he wasn't aware of them, then he isn't as all-knowing as he claims to be. If he was unwilling to, then not only is he not loving, but he would be directly responsible for me going to hell. Hell itself is a whole other issue that I'm not going to get into right now.
4. You said "So you left God because..." I did not leave God. You can not "leave" someone who isn't there in the first place. Whether that is because he isn't real, or because he was ignoring me doesn't really matter. Either he was never there, or he was the one who left me. Not the other way around.
@@TheCount991 First of all, you assume that suffering and death is part of God's plan. Depending on what you mean by "God's plan," you could be right, but I still think that categorizing it as "God's plan," assumes too much and sends a wrong message across. Suffering and death is something that is part of this world that God created, yes, but is it the end goal? The answer is no. Suffering is merely an instrument meant to bring about experience and virtue, but also a triumph at the end. I think that a triumph at the end where we defeat suffering together with God, is worth the suffering. God does not want to determine us, He used evolution which brings about suffering, but suffering isn't ideal or the end goal, as said.
Secondly, I still think you expected too much of God. Following God does not mean that your life will get better. It means a commitment to the person of God. God is not just going to magically give you a sign or a dream that says, "I forgive you, I am listening, and I give you strength." But even then, God may have given you strength or guidance just without you realizing it. You never know.
Your third point ties into what I've said before; suffering is not ideal. God is not evil for allowing you to suffer or to not answer your prayers. He doesn't have an obligation to do so and He may have good reasons for it. Going to hell is your own choice, it is a rejection of God. God will judge us fairly, so you can't say, "God should have revealed Himself, it's His fault!" No, it's our own fault if we go to hell. We sin, and then refuse to accept God's gift of salvation. Plus, hell probably isn't literal fiery torment. The Bible describes hell as fire and darkness at the same time. Contradictory? Yes, which is why I think it probably is using metaphors. The Bible uses them for heaven, so why not for hell as well? The Bible also describes God as a consuming fire, so maybe the fire in hell is a reference to being sinful in God's presence or the afterlife.
In conclusion I think that your problem is that you view yourself above God. You view Him as the person who abandoned you while you just tried to have a relationship with Him. That is a prideful way of viewing God and it is putting too much expectation on Him and His moral obligations.
@@x-popone6817 I'm afraid I have to disagree with almost everything you said. It is nice to see a christian (I'm assuming?) not arguing against evolution though. Just to make sure my thoughts are clear, when I talk about God doing x, y, or z, I am assuming his existence for the sake of discussion. I don't believe he exists, and haven't for quite some time.
I don't see any way that anything that ever happened could possibly not be part of God's plan, aside from him just being stupid. If he is all-powerful and all-knowing, then he knew exactly what was going to happen before he created us, so the fact that he created us the way that he did means that he wanted everything to turn out the way it did. If he didn't, he would have made us differently. Even if you want to argue that he didn't "want" it to be like this, he just accepted that it was how things would work out, that still makes any suffering that anyone goes through his fault. He could have prevented it, but allowed it to happen anyway, either intentionally, or through negligence.
As for hell, I don't see any reason to think that it isn't essentially what is described, meaning eternal torment. I agree that fire and darkness don't exactly mix well together, so a metaphor is likely, but that doesn't mean that the reality isn't just as bad, or worse. It's just harder to describe. Of course, we are talking about an all-powerful being, so if he wanted to make fire that didn't create light, he could presumably do that. I have mixed feelings about that. On one hand, I appreciate when people talk about hell as being something less horrifying because I've seen the harm caused by people believing that their loved ones are going to be tortured for eternity. On the other hand, I don't feel like it's an honest depiction of what the bible describes.
Please, please, please, don't say that someone "chose hell". That's complete nonsense and will never do anything but drive away the person you are telling that to. I don't care if you believe it or not. Don't say it. It immediately proves to the person you are telling it to that you are wrong. The same goes for the ever so popular "You do believe, you just want to sin." I have no say in the matter. If God (or whatever other deity depending on which version of hell) exists, than he is the one who decides that. Even the bible says that many who think they are saved are not. If I had a choice about what would happen to me after I died, my choice would be reincarnation until I got bored of it, and then just plain dead and that's the end of me. Not believing that hell exists does not mean that I chose to go there. It means I didn't think it was real.
A relationship requires reciprocation. It's not a one way street. If one party can't even be bothered to say "hello" once in their life, let alone actually be there for the other in a discernible way, that's not a relationship. Or at least not a healthy one. It's either imaginary, or stalking.
I gave up Christianity about 58 years ago at the age of 13 or 14. I was raised in the episcopal church so I wasn’t super heavily indoctrinated. I remember about a year of questioning and praying and asking God for some indication that it existed. I realized during that time that I got nothing back.
I was sitting in my acolyte robes in the sanctuary watching people come up to take communion when a wave of awareness passed through my body and I realized then and there that this entire pageant was a human invention.
It wasn’t heavily traumatic for me and for that I’m grateful. No guilt, no anger, no lasting damage. One by one, after expressing some dismay, the rest of my family stepped into the nonbeliever camp including my mother, who was raised Catholic and heavily traumatized by the whole experience.
Well done. You had more intellectual courage than I did at 13 or 14.
I was literally telling my mom today that after becoming an atheist i finally felt like i had the freedom to be compassionate towards others and i love it
Yeah, that was something that surprised me when i left religion was that i found myself A LOT more empathetic, and not just towards some people, but all people. A lot of other atheists you talk to all will say they felt the same thing, and it was unexpected for them as well. We are raised being told that Christians are the best people, the most compassionate and caring and kind... but there is always a limit and it rarely extended to non-Christians.
My Uncle is a Baptist preacher and literally has his small group Sunday school called "Common Grounds" because where he serves actually good coffee because he was so offended by the sad Church coffee often made.
Good coffee? That might be a sin.
@@germanvisitor2 he is obsessed with coffee, he even will go so far as to roast his own coffee.
Bad coffee in churches did kind of develop into a cliche. I suspect it parallels some cultural developments of people in general being more likely to expect quality coffee.
The church I grew up in eventually someone got so tired of bad percolator stuff, that he ran a campaign and invested lots of his own money in professional drip machines. And started buying high end fresh roasted beans.
It was popular with the coffee drinkers at least.
Evangelicals are obsessed with coffee. Where I live any coffee shop you go to will have a Bible study going on somewhere. I don't know if it is because many of them don't drink alcohol or what.
”My unique deconversion story, that is identical to everyone else's...”
Well, when we're all leaving the same faith, regardless of which of the 45,000 denominations we belonged to, that we were indoctrinated into from birth, then no wonder it's going to sound so similar.
And, like you said about puberty, it should be a step in a person's development, just another part of our coming of age stories, much like when we realized that Santa, the Easter Bunny, and the Tooth Fairy aren't real.
If people wouldn't raise their children in the faith, it wouldn't have to happen, but maybe, like not instilling a belief in Santa Claus, it would only ostracize children among their peers.
Deconversion, not surprisingly, often mirrors the scientific method, which validates through repeated testing; a repeated process. Thus, it's even more to the credit of the deconverted, that their stories are so similar. It just points to the use of logic and reason in the process.
Contrast that with various "come-to-Jesus" stories, which can range from "my team won the Superbowl" to "the doctors made grandma better (but I am giving them no credit for it," to "I had a funny feeling in my toe." Variety may be the spice of life, but it's hardly a sign of an effective moral compass.
Yeah it’s definitely strange that people in similar situations experience similar psychological conditions.
Deconversion stories will of course sound familiar, because thousands of different people can all agree on the same reason for leaving the faith. Eg: the problem of evil appears a lot because it's an absolute killer for evangelical beliefs but a very easy problem for any person to run into.
@@jeremysmetana8583 You sound like those boring scientists who always have the same explanation as to why the earth is round. The answers are so unoriginal, it must be flat. Just sayin'.
You'd think it might clue them into reasons the church is declining. But nope. "Haha all these people have the same complaints for absolutely no reason!"
As an “exvangelical” myself, tho I’m not sure I’ve gone full atheist, I do find it very interesting that atheists, such as yourself, seem to understand me more than the Church does.
Thank you so much for all you do. If there was such a thing, you’re doing the Lord’s work. 🤟🏻
I'll take it, Tommy.
I’m in the same place.
I find it so frustrating that Christians I know still seems to believe they’ve got it all figured out: no mysteries left to discover, no grey areas in life, it’s just all black and white.
Honestly, I think a number of Christians haven’t had enough life experiences that truly challenge what they believe, so their faith remains in some sort of infant state, never asking hard questions.
So much to unpack, after so much unnecessary shit was crammed down there.
Peace.
@@stevenbatke2475 True. Often it seems that many of the "raised in the church, stayed in the church" folks simply haven't endured the kind of experience which poses a challenge to their core beliefs. Not so say that they've led charmed lives or that their faith hasn't helped them in difficult times, but rather, that nothing they came across ever came from an angle that would bring them to ask whether they were right about any of their fundamental assumptions.
Often (though not always, obviously), they seem to be spending all their time in the shallow water of religion, or the "milk" version of Christianity, as per Hebrews 5. What's even more annoying is that they hear a single sermon containing some super basic apologetics (someone in another reply mentioned Kalam) and then imagine that they're an authority on theology.
And when you share your story of deconversion, or even question relatively basic things from a Christian-but-not-evangelical perspective (I'm agnostic, so maybe I'm in this category still?), they then have the cheek to accuse YOU of "not having thought about it." Then they regale you with these same rather basic apologetics which they learned purely by rote, if they even know them. It's difficult at that point to not just nod and agree to preserve the peace and go about your day.
@@wolfieinu agreed. It can be so complicated. Thanks for your response.
@@stevenbatke2475 Indeed. I know a few, and as a former believer, can say it's a borrowed faith they possess. No desire to truly test it.
My deconversion was hell. It was a long, painful, lonely, scary process. How can one call that sexy or trendy? Bullshit. And I was well versed in apologetics and had thought my faith thru. But as an xtian, my "self-examined religion" was propped up by falsehoods from evangelical leaders, writers, and pseudo-scholars.
Sweet, another great day when we get a Paul vid
Oh yeah!
This might be your best video. It is so hard to pick one, but this one gets me.
Thanks, Kipp... I mean, until you come on in 2022.
@@Paulogia you said it. Now you have to do it! I can't wait. (We can talk about how trash the Oilers are.)
Are you on twitter? What's the best way to contact? paul@paulogia.com
@@Paulogia Twitter is evil. (I will email you.)
How I actually became an atheist is by asking myself 2 questions. Question 1 was why do I believe in God and the Bible is it because of the fact that I was raised in the church or because I came to the conclusion on my own? My answer was because I was raised in the church. My second question was do I truly believe in God and the Bible? My answer at first was yes. Then I asked myself one last question. Why? At that point it just led me back to my first question and my first answer so I decided that if my faith was strong enough I should be able to read the Bible and come to the same place I was at before I started questioning my faith.
To say the least it didn't. It took only reading genesis to get my to an agnostic view on religion. It only took me the rest of the Bible to get me to an agnostic atheist view of religions.
It all depends how you read it. The Bible is actually a mystical text, but many read it as of it's history and literally true. Yes there are historical elements but by and large it's mostly a mystical text essentially. But since it is mystical it requires interpretation and initiation from someone who has the keys to unlock it's dark sayings, which practically makes it useless for most people who read it.
There is not much more infuriating than being told that I was never really a real Christian before if I am an atheist now. 🙄
As someone who has never been religious, someone telling me that I was never a true "partaker in their specific version of their specific religion" is the epitome of idgaf for me.
This is why I call out the "they were never a real atheist" callouts as well, though. It is bad to do, and I see both sides doing it.
The thing I hate about the Babylon bee is a lot of their "jokes" are actual beliefs of people. That they say without irony.
It's like telling someone they were never sober if they slip and drink.
@@nivoset while I generally agree that “not-true-Scotsman” fallacy is bad argument in any case but there is big difference between “true” Christian and atheist. “Atheist” is more or less clearly and simply defined while “Christian” is not. This means it’s easier to spot not-atheist atheist.
It's true in my case. My doubts started very young and my rare bouts of relative religious zeal were mostly manic attempts to suppress my disbelief. I've identified as a Christian, but I've never been a very good one. I came out as an atheist within a week of leaving for college.
25:00 Fun fact, the Mormon church has suspended the practice of having missionaries go door to door spreading the "Message" due to Covid 19, and it seems this suspension will be permanent. They realized it was doing more harm than good.
I feel extremely called out because I, an ex evangelical, have almost that exact same outfit, lol
😮
I was brought up in a churchgoing Church of England family. I was an adult before I realised that some people take that stuff seriously. To me it was a quaint collection of allegorical tales, no more; so I did not think any more about it until relatively recently when I discovered channels like this.
Aren't most Anglicans holiday Christians anyways? Lol
@@shinobi-no-bueno It's probably fair to say that, yes. I am talking about nearly 50 years ago though, and things have definitely changed since then when the church was much more involved in life. Also, remember the UK has no separation between church and state, they're tied together through the monarchy. Like our army who swear alleigance to the queen.
@@justsomebloke6784 And Bishops in the upper House….just because they are Bishops.
Wasn't there a line (in an old Hancock episode?) where a patient was being admitted to hospital. The nurse asked him what religion he was.
"None" he said.
"OK I'll put you down as C of E then."
As an atheist I'm proud to say I'm not afraid of boob.
I really like the planet analogy, I'm going to steal that when talking about religion. I didn't start studying other religions until I had left Christianity and went to India for work. It was a real eye opener for me as it's a country where you have 3 major religions (if we're counting Buddhism as a religion) all in the same place, all trying to coexist with varying success.
I was a national bible quizzer in my youth and after deconverting I've had many people tell me that I obviously never read the bible.
To read it is one thing. To understand it is another.
@@stevedyches4635 yes, that's why many atheist understand the bible better than many Christians! Good way to form an atheist is to tell them that the bible is the inerrant word of God. When they find the many errors and realize that the God character is a monster, they start questioning.
@@JayBandersnatch Obviously you don't understand the Bible. Like Steve said, there's a difference between reading and understanding.
@@x-popone6817 Do you think someone can understand the bible and be an atheist? What does it mean to "understand" the bible?
Are there errors in the bible?
Does the bible condone immoral acts, e.g., owning other people as property?
@@JayBandersnatch Of course, a person can understand the Bible and be an atheist. However, your comment came across as a type of guy who thinks that because he read the Bible, he is an expert and now realizes the "errors" in the Bible. I do think there are errors in the Bible, such as translation errors, copyist errors and perhaps even an author whose opinion is wrong. However, I do not think that these things would affect core doctrines or make God wrong. There's nothing in the Bible that says it has "Quranic type" inerrancy. Inerrancy doesn't mean that there can't be minor errors.
As for immoral acts, the Bible allowed certain evil things in the Old Testament, yes, but it never says these were ideal for all time. There are clues both in the New and Old Testament that a lot of these laws were temporary and not ideal. In fact, some scholars have argued based on other ancient near eastern law codes that the Mosaic law wouldn't have originally been understood in a super legalistic way that a lot of people view it as today.
I can’t say it enough: I’m so thankful for the way you confidently and intelligently articulate de-conversion. It really helps so many of us xx
as an ex-pentecostal I tend to take them quite serously still, I do not like being threatened by stupid ignorant thugs who cannot take a joke, let alone being stood up permanently
I never knew you could just not believe in God until I was about 16.
I was twice that age. I had met an atheist, and at the time I made the common mistake of saying “so you worship the devil”.
It never occurred to me that no gods existing was possible until that conversation.
@@moonshoes11 same I think I believed Sunday school to be like normal school, everybody went and it was basically as required for you to do.
It took me a lot longer to find out people really believe in a god (I was never a theist).
@@finestPlugins to be fair I am still stunned people are creationists and think opposing evolution will somehow promote Christian faith. It is completely nonsensical.
I might have an interesting deconversion story. I was raised going to a southern Baptist church until I was 6 when we moved to Hawaii. We kept going to church for a bit bit all decided that we didn't like getting up on Sundays. So I start watching more discovery channel. And slowly decided for myself that God must have been like Santa or the Easter bunny. A tool to make little kids behave. So I stopped believing around 8 or 9. No one drove me out I just decided it didn't make sense.
I actually left my religion pretty much overnight, but I was going through a lot or faith-related emotional turmoil for well over two years before then, because I couldn't stop worrying about whether or not I was saved, and for a long time I thought for sure that I was absolutely damned. I feel like such a Christian cliché since I deconverted more because I was angry at God and because it seems like God forsook me.
But on the flip side, how many Christian conversions are praised within the church for merely "feeling" that their atheism wasn't true and that there had to be a god, or because they somehow heard the moral argument for the first time and it convinced them.
I don't think you should feel bad for your experience for that exact reason: It was your experience. What helps you out of the "cliche" is what you do with your experience and if you use it to live a more examined life. There is meaning to be found there, it is up to you to find it.
@@ThatReadingGuy28 hey thanks, I appreciate your comment and advice. You made my day a little better.
@@readerforlife7292 No problem, glad to help!
I know that "losing my Faith" was not an instant thing. I went through all kind of silly stuff(to me now) before I moved on to other forms of woo, and then slowing letting that belief in the supernatural go. My cognitive dissonance fought me hard, all the way out. But when faced with overwhelming evidence that my beliefs were flawed, my brain finally had enough to just let it all go.
Years!
Years wasted for criminal's gain!
To my detriment!
ALL for lies!
Sorry, little triggered there.
I'll just have to pull up my big boy pants and adapt.
Adapt & Overcome!
Thanks Paul!
Hey Shannon!
Bye y'all!
Although I know precisely when I started calling myself an atheist, I have absolutely no idea when I stopped believing. It was such a slow process that I slipped from belief to non-belief without noticing.
Absolutely. While I do remember when I first REALIZED that I didn’t believe anymore, I don’t know when I ACTUALLY stopped believing. It was a slow process.
"If you ever experience the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ _actually_, that that's really impossible to deconstruct from."
If that's all it takes to gain unshakeable faith, why do so many not experience that? What's the evangelical explanation for that? If there is a thrice-omni god out there who wants us to believe we exist, and if that can be achieved by having us experience the grace and mercy of one of its aspects, why doesn't it just make us all experience that? This wouldn't be against free will, if that speaker believes in free will, as the deity wouldn't be forcing us to do or think anything, it would just be showing us undeniable mercy and grace.
Exactly. Every Christian solution just presents more problems. And virtually every solution conflicts with other solutions to other problems. It's not doublethink, it's triple or quadruplethink.
It’s just the No True Scotsman Fallacy. The only test presented for the experience grace and mercy of Jesus Christ is the lack of deconversion .
Ironically, there are plenty of Christians (including leaders) who encourage others to simply trust them. "You don't have to understand it." And while there are things about God I don't see how we can understand, I think that's a total copout. If teachings don't make sense, it's totally fair to pull them apart to see what (if anything) makes them tick.
I've noticed that in some traditions it seems to be common to answer difficult theological questions by saying "it's a mystery", so in my case when it comes to how to interpret Genesis one answer I found is that we'll never know what the world was like before the Fall of Adam and to me that's a blatant copout answer as well, especially when considering the history of the earth through evolution and geology (to be fair I think the page I read that from is creationist).
One of the things that broke my faith is realizing the apologetics I used to look up to don't hold up as I thought and when it comes to human evolution what I got might as well be a "God did it!" answer.
I deconverted back in April, and even though there were common threads between what led to my experience and what I heard listening to other peoples stories, I came to the (surprising) conclusion that everyone’s story is different. So I guess this babylon bee video has only given me another opportunity to tell christians why they’re wrong :)
I’m surprised that they didn’t go all the way and hire an actress with a buzz cut and a tattoo that says “Butch”. Why be subtle?
What does _not_ surprise me is that they didn’t have her proclaim how she could toss away her Purity Ring and have sex as much as she wants with whoever she wants. I mean that wouldn’t help with believer retention, would it?
🤣👍
That would require them finding one of their own willing to alter their looks to serve their narrative. This deconvert is a very weak strawman because this just looks like a Christian wearing different clothes. They'd have to go find a head shaved butch willing to spout their hateful nonsense OR: just do a piss poor job of getting a real sjw looking strawman with blue dyed hair with a shave and piercings and just instead got kimberighlelelyly from youth group to comb her hair over, borrow her dad's shirt, and wear a rock on a string.
@@morpha3935I suppose you could find an actress to play the part, maybe without even knowing now the video would be used. That’s what acting is after all
@@marccolten9801 they definitely could, but knowing these types they might not want anything to do with nonbelievers and only want to hire other Christians or keep it within their circle. Especially if their goal is just low budget as it obviously is here.
@@marccolten9801 or actually, as the video says, they don't even want to see the horror of the worldly ways because their audience would clutch their pearls at someone that actually looks like a butch, as you said. Even the people they want to strawman can't be over the top for their Christian sensibilities, ironic.
So thankful for all of the youtubers like Paulogia. You have given me courage. My story is very similar to yours. I am about the same age and lived a similar life. I have never been more at peace than after letting go of Christianity.
Glad you found your way out, Jenny.
I do have one reservation about "all groups of people commit the same amount of harm". The authority granted to religious leaders over their congregtions allows their harm to remain unchecked by those that should be protecting the vulnerable, such as parents.
When I was in the military and got sent overseas to Japan and South Korea that was my introduction to Eastern religions.
This is why evangelicals aren't really into world travel and education. Not only this, but traveling to Europe exposes a person to things like universal heath care.
I think you nailed it at 6:52. She just looks like every “90s chick” i used to pine for (but totally don’t anymore, of course).
I guess for the Bee, all us former believers are just 90s hippie-wannabes. At least they didn’t put her in dreads…
She looks like Sarah Connor actually...
Ngl, I still have a thing for women in flannel. To me it's a way of saying "I'm comfortable in my own skin and I don't care what anyone thinks." I just find that a really attractive attitude.
16:30 I grew up in California in a town that my parents chose to settle in partly because it was one of the most integrated cities in the country in 1968.
I grew up in the Mormon Church and had many friends not only from other faiths but from other races too.
I had one friend who was a black Baptist and one Sunday he came to church with me. Everyone welcomed him and as far as I could tell his race was not an issue at all. Then the next Sunday I went to his church, where I was very warmly welcomed and as far as I could tell, my race was not an issue.
My god, was I blown away. It was full of passionate enthusiastic speakers and some of the happiest, most fun music I had ever heard. To say I was moved would be an understatement.
This was 40 years ago, and though I am now an atheist, I still love black gospel music.
I don't really have a deconversion story. I believed in God when I was young and went through the motions at religious events, but my family was never super-religious to begin with so I didn't have the constant reinforcement of those beliefs to contend with. So when I was in high school, a friend asked me if I believed in God. I thought about it for a second and answered, "no... I guess not."
This is actually pretty messed up.
If I was to make the same sort of satire about people who convert to evangelical christianity, it would invariably have to point out the array of abuse, trauma and neglect which leads a lot of people to evangelical christianity and other sorts of fundamentalism and/or conspiracism.
Then you'd want to touch on the whole childhood indoctrination thing as well as the propensity for these people to talk out of both sides of their mouth.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't think it was terribly funny.
Gosh your comment reminded my of this old radio program that used to play on the Christian radio station in Sunday nights. I think it was called Unshackled, each episode had somebody (normally and addict) whose life was messed up but then they found Jesus. It was really something.
A true Christian is seen as one who holds on to their faith despite evidence for why they shouldn't believe. I've heard it again and again. At some point you have stop yourself from thinking about it too much so that you don't allow doubt to creep up and separate you from your belief in god.
Yup, logic and critical thinking are *the devil*
The massive amount of cognitive dissonance is probably one of the things that kept me in the fold longer than it would've been otherwise, eventually it was just too much for me and I decided to go where the evidence led.
And here I am two years later.
I am SO happy I never had to de convert as I was never a member or believer of any church or religion and I had a great demo when I was about 5 about how the power of prayer is all hot air and almost killed me. I had a massive Asthma attack at a family (who are stanch Christian Scientists) and when my mom tried to take me to the hospital for treatment they called in a lady to pray over me and I suffered 2 days of not being able to breath right on Thanks Giving that year. After this my mom stopped taking use to any church or that side of the family.,
So is this better viewed as a parody of an atheist? Or a parody of how an evangelical views an atheist?
As usual, Paul provides a humble and thoughtful analysis.
Much love.
Thanks for responding to this video. I get the jokes but to say that is like every deconversion story came off passive-aggressive. I didnt find it funny to take something that I've been dealing with for years, having monthly therapy for and the challenges it has caused in my personal relationships and making it out like I had a simple question I couldn't answer and deconverted like that, just to be all about myself. It's like the Bee has never met a deconverted person before.
I'm with you on this, if you or I were to do the same satire of evangelicals, I'm willing to bet they wouldn't take it nearly so good naturedly.
People in glass houses and all that.
It was intended to belittle you.
@@robsengahay5614 yep...what a compassionate Christian thing to do
@@ElectricBradyland57 The problem with adopting that phrase is that it presupposes that Christianity is a moral code of itself. Christians are no more or less moral than anyone else.
@@robsengahay5614 I would agree with that but they kinda put that expectation on themself when they ask me where I get my morality from
I left the church BECAUSE of all of the Bible study I did. The more I studied the more questions I had. More often than not when asking people in leadership positions to help me understand things better I would get 10 minutes of bullshit instead of an actual answer. Doing a deep dive into the flood of Noah was the final straw for me. Easily one of the 3 best decisions I ever made.
You don't know how to read the Bible. Try Jews for Judaism or Outreach Judaism or Simple to Remember. Christianity is second-hand Bible.
That it’s possible to not know how to read the bible is proof that it cannot be a definitive source of knowledge.
This just reminds me how the mindset in church was “you are either with us or you are against us” . I’m happy I deconstructed. I’d rather have the uncertainty of truth than believe in a comfortable lie every Sunday.
Great way to start off Friday! Thanks Paul!!
For some reason this reminded me of the actors trying to play "beat kids, and "rock and rollers" in movies in the 1960s/1970s. When they tried to show how society was going to be destroyed by "juvenile delinquents".
Your content is the best on the topic of religion, once again thank you for what you do Paul, you're 1 in a million 🙏
This man! The absolute integrity! This logical, nuanced discussion from Paul never ceases to surprise and impress me, regardless of topic.
I've been enjoying your videos for some time now and cannot adequately express my appreciation for the depth of charity and humility you bring to the topics in which you engage. Having left the faith myself after some 40 years of ever deepening commitment to ideas and propositions that seem now to be either laughable or dangerous, I feel a kinship with so much of what you share here on your channel. Anyone who brings up the "you were never really committed" or "you never really believed" tropes against me do so by simply ignoring my years in Christian leadership and, more tellingly, my devotion to such practical outworkings of my faith that led me to to have almost a dozen children (all of whom now are adults).
My greatest respect goes to people who live life thoughtfully and can accept a challenge from other thoughtful people. And while I, too, had my years of anger and regret aimed primarily at my own gullibility, I much prefer now to avoid the temptation towards tirades aimed at my former faith companions. That just alienates individuals who might somehow be amenable to conversation when it's most needed.
Great job on this video (and indeed your entire channel).
Wow those WandaVision Mephisto Easters eggs are everywhere!
It took me about 2 years to de-convert, and that was after dying a few times. I only remember dying once though, as I was under general anaesthesia for the first couple of times. My death, or more precisely, the lack of any memory of anything after I had died, started the journey of deconversion. Throughout my life, I had been told that when a person died, all the people they loved who had died before them would be there to greet them. Up to that point, I had never had my beliefs challenged in any serious way.
My lack of any memory about my death had left me with questions, that everybody I asked found uncomfortable, and danced around. I had died halfway through my 18th year, and it wasn't until I was almost 21 before I admitted to myself that I wasn't a Christian anymore. I didn't start referring to myself as an atheist until I was 22 or 23, though.
I read a lot during the years from when I had died, before accepting that Christianity was no different than any other religion, past or present. It was a long process, and I read a couple different editions of the bible, Jewish and Islamic materials, eastern religions, paganism, and atheism.
Initially, I was a rather militant atheist, over the years though, I've moved to a more pragmatic position where I admit that I don't know one way or another if there is any deity. Due to the lack of evidence though, I don't accept any deities. I do tend to react pretty strongly to anybody trying to make me, or anyone else, abide by religious rules they don't subscribe to. As long as somebody treats my beliefs with the same respect as their own, there aren't any problems.
Okay, I'm gonna be "that guy" and point out that you didn't die. You may have been "near death" but that is not the same as dying. Death is a finality from which one does not return or continue. There has never been a verified instance of anyone coming back from clinical death.
@@bernierasmusson9257 the last time my heart stopped, it was almost 4 minutes... I was biologically dead. true, it's not the same as clinical death, but these definitions came about after my death. so my death is my death. this was in 1986. Be "that guy" someplace else.
@@bernierasmusson9257 and surgeon said "you died on the table twice and the recovery room once. we didn't think you'd make it" on my post-op check up before I was released. I also suffered from peritonitis and my temperature went up to 107F...
@@mspicer3262 Right. Like I said. You didn't actually die.
I am glad to hear that you are still here and able to share your thoughts.
Thank you so much for this. I watched the Babylon Bee video and it was actually painful. As someone early in the deconversion process, to see a Christian video just poke fun at the most painful and disorienting season of my life was honestly jarring. It is helpful to hear someone process the video after having many more years of post-Christian life than I do. Thank you very much.
I don't know if it's technically considered "deconverting" but my own story, like that of many others, is that I simply drifted away. I wasn't in any kind of strictly religious family. We went to church on Sunday, but it was more of an obligation than a desire to worship. I attended Catholic school grades K-8 but I just began to see that a lot of things didn't make sense, and there were a lot of contradictions inherent in Christianity in general. I just detached myself gradually. I don't try to discourage anyone from practicing their religion or proclaim my atheism. One's faith, or lack thereof, is a personal matter. It's only my business if you try to impress your beliefs on me or if your beliefs interfere with my personal liberty.
Thank you for this measured response - and your preface before examining their video. If I had found this on my own I probably would have had a more emotional reaction; it was helpful to be reminded of listening a little more between the words. That being said, here are some thoughts I had while watching:
• The “you weren’t really a true Christian in the first place” never sat well with me. I was raised in an evangelical family; my faith was a central part of my identity, my family, my social circle, my career choices, my place in the universe. It was the air I breathed. Granted, as a believer I never felt the need to investigate my beliefs beyond what I was taught. What forced me take a hard look at them was coming to terms with being gay. Short of that, I don’t know what it would have taken to look more deeply or prompt my exit. Regardless of how closely examined (or not) my faith was, I don’t think I can emphasize enough how profoundly immersed I was in it or how deeply committed I was to persevering in that faith. If I wasn’t a believer, then what was I? For years I described myself as walking Swiss cheese. “You never truly believed” is a response that trivializes and dismisses how integral that faith was to my entire being. It also presumes (IMO) a level of mind-reading on their part they have no right to claim.
• Repression as an exvangelical: They certainly hit the nail on the head regarding the self-loathing necessary to believe in the need for salvation. To the extent I may or may not still have those feelings I think is a reflection of the fact I am a human being, that those feelings are simply a part of the human condition. Where Christianity becomes toxic is in its insistence that nothing - *nothing* - is ever good enough. I don’t know that I experience repression now to the extent I did as a believer; that’s what therapy is for (have been in and out of it for decades, the family dynamic after coming out and deconstruction being a significant issue). It would be accurate to say that I am more likely to evaluate a social context before deciding how much to withhold or share.
• Lashing back at prayer, asking Christians to pair it with meaningful action: yes! I would extend that to conversations as well. When my mother was trying to persuade me back to faith was when I felt most disconnected from her. When she shared stories of personal experience and how they felt was when I felt like she truly heard and understood me. To her as a believer her God-talk was as real as breathing air (I remember what that was like). For me those words ceased to hold meaning and were most often used to push me away. I wish more evangelicals understood that a faith-based empathy feels more genuine when it isn’t paired with what lands as empty words.
• good intentions of evangelism: I am much less likely to be as forbearing as you, Paul, on this. As a gay man I’ve often had the thought, “may you one day be on the receiving end of the “unconditional” love you feel compelled to dispense.” It’s an ugly thought, and I’m not proud of it. No matter how sincere the urge to “rescue,” proselytizing remains an act of hostility and judgment. I wish evangelicals would skip directly to the compassion and empathy and let the God-talk be something that happens afterward and *only* if an interest is expressed. I really hate being made someone’s mission project, especially when it becomes apparent they think 24 years as a believer wasn’t enough for me to sufficiently understand what the gospel message is.
15:54 I remember my catholic school religion teacher warning the senior class to be wary and ready to defend our faith when we went to college as there would be (*gasp*) Protestants abound out in the scary real world outside our 95% catholic town
I was very Catholic for a while and went to Catholic high school, so I also had some apologetics stuff on how to keep the faith in college.
Except that it was through my college experience that the first real cracks and doubts on my faith emerged and I became fascinated with human evolution at that time, realizing that the apologetics (especially Catholic Answers) had no good answers for that topic is what ultimately broke my faith as without Original Sin much of the theology breaks down.
Fantastic video. Educational, easy to understand. Thank you.
Thanks for the video, Paul!
Out of context Bible verses are really helpful in keeping the faith! Because when you put them in context, it becomes obvious how little sense they make!
I never really read it until very recently, sure I new some quotes here and there, but seriously reading it shows what it really is: a compilation of fables!
I think that being on autopilot about own Christianity is what keeps most people in the flock, both as a believer "washed in the blood of the lamb", and as a blind follower like a sheep. I have heard so many times how, when a person decided to get serious and study by actually reading the WHOLE Bible, it lead to their deconstruction. I was not an evangelical, just a casual Catholic, but deciding to actually read the Bible pretty much inoculated me against becoming a "real Christian".
I think those who condemn their fellows who are trying to decide for themselves if God belief is for them or not, should understand that encouraging serious study and reflection is just as likely, if not more likely, to cause them to come down on the side of "not". Nothing destroys faith more thoroughly than realizing it has no basis at all.
I always enjoy hearing your perspective. As an exvangelical who landed as an Episcopalian, I rarely feel like your content is trying to convince me I'm wrong. And by having a chance to interact with people of different faiths or no faiths, I've come to realize that two people can ask the same fundamental questions and come to different answers. How arrogant would I have to be to say that no, *my* answers are the only right ones? I wish evangelicals as a whole were better at discussing different religious or faith positions from a place of mutual respect.
Paul…..you’re the best. I have watched your material for many years now. I found you, Matt D, Sam Harris, prophet of zod, and so many others right around the same time. I was never a believer because I was given the right to choose by my family. But I felt my views were seen as horrible by believers for many years. You helped me and I never had to go through the painful process of deconversion. Love your channel, love your care to detail on the material. But I especially love your kind responses to folks that are not so nice to you anymore…..”because you were never really a christian.” Hurtful. And reason number 102 for being an atheist. It’s a long list. Again, you’re the best. Love to see you on the call in with Matt.
You'd think christian apologists given how smart and knowledgeable of their own religion they are would realize why its the case that the overwhelming amount of churches demand blind obedience of its members in the first place.
Satire is fine and all, but I still take issue with the constant downplay of the serious mental heath issues and trauma caused not only by religion but often amplified while questioning religion.
Really excellent work, Paul. I’m so impressed by your calling to attention the most important and unfortunately the most often overlooked aspects in matters of beliefs. That is, fostering understanding and communication free from arbitrary judging along sectarian lines.
Paul, your deep voice is calming to me
🖤🤘🦡❤️