Who Deconstructs the Deconstructors? (feat Jon Steingard) (Stand to Reason response)
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- Опубліковано 2 лют 2022
- Jon Noyes and Tim Barnett talk about recent public deconversion stories, including that of one Jon Steingard (formerly of Hawk Nelson) who joins Paulogia to react.
Responding to Deconversion Stories | Stand to Reason Podcast with Jon Noyes and Tim Barnett
• Responding to Deconver...
Jon Steingard
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My cameo caught me by surprise! Excellent commentary from you both as always. Jon has become an incredible communicator in this sphere and I’m thrilled to see the good he’s doing by speaking up.
May I suggest to you the book "Taking Leave of Darwin" by Niel Thomas.
@@timefliesasyougetolder6815 humanities professor, non-specialist. I you'd buy me the book I'd read it, but...
Is he arguing against darwin's original work when he knew so little about a vast number of biological subjects that we now know vastly more about. I.e. does it deal with the modern synthesis.
@@mikeharrison1868 Thats always the cry of the atheist. They don't have the right credentials. Don't look at the argument being made. For the book he writes he is actually well qualified. You will find this if you do a little better investigation.
@@timefliesasyougetolder6815 Sure. Buy me the book and I'll read it.
This sounds like "if you read the right book on flat earth, you'd believe flat earth. Globers never look at the argument being made."
@@mikeharrison1868 Buy it yourself. Really?
Losing my faith felt like dying. I bristle when someone implies that I left "for fun".
I understand. It's a low blow to accuse someone who walked away that did so for petty & shallow reasons. When they make this accusation, they're really self reporting on their inability to cope with it.
Sounds like it was rough. It sounds like you came through the experience alright, I am glad for that.
That's the point, right? They're basically threatening thier listeners, letting them know how they'll be treated if they leave the faith.
Or they say 'well obviously you were not a true Christian, you did not have real faith'. What a self-serving statement.
I feel ya. It's one of the most painful processes. When I was deconverting, I lost my moral compass and my entire purpose in life. I lost a close relationship with my father. I contemplated killing myself for a few weeks, even calling a hotline and talking with HR about it. However, I couldn't go back to Christianity because I cared about truth over feelings. I was a wreck until I finally learned that I still can have meaning, and thus purpose, without a god telling me. Anyone saying I deconverted "to sin" or "for fun" shows how little they know or care for me. And it is frustrating to still hear it.
"If you're too young at 19 to question these positions, then you're too young too affirm them."
Well said, Jon. Well said.
"If something is true it should be able to stand up to scrutiny"
This is how my very Christian parents accidentally raised me to not be a Christian. Mom was a scientist and Dad an engineer. They taught me from a very early age to question and test, and if something didn't stand up to inquiry to reject it and search for the actual truth. BUT at the same time whenever I asked any question regarding Christianity, they would immediately shut me down with "It's a SIN to question God!" (important proof that intelligence is NOT a bulwark against childhood conditioning)
Thanks Mom and Dad for the early deconversion.
Compartmentalization is crazy. When logic and reason suddenly shuts down in some particular subject but not others.
My dad - YEC preacher - instilled this in me. He didn’t know what he was creating lol
You need to question the evolution theory then, because it has been proven false
@@samuelcalderwood1379 By whom? They should submit their proof for peer review and claim their Nobel Prize.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 actually no it hasn’t. But could you provide some documentation, some evidence? Proved false by whom? The fact that you are saying something like this is proof that you have never once attempted to understand what evolution says or even what it is from someone who is not a Christian apologist, but I would still love to hear what you have to offer.
Jon, I grew up listening to Hawk Nelson and I still have a lot of your songs despite having left Christianity. I had no idea that you had left the faith but it's like seeing an old friend on the other side.
Best of luck being a father. I'm sure you'll do well!
That’s so cool for you! Now if one of the TwentyOne Pilots would deconstruct I will have a similar experience.
This is actually really beautiful. I love it.
As a Christian, my mindset (and my friends’ mindsets) on doubt was - “you can doubt as long as it doesn’t change your mind.” I remember a friend early in my deconstruction saying “ya, you can doubt, as long as we are united on the big things.” Which begged the question - “and what if I doubt the big things?” The unsaid answer of course was eternal damnation, which is a slightly more awkward conversation
Eternal damnation kind of loses its bite when it's based on the same dumb shit you're doubting
@@brightorangepants ,
Which is why it would be awkward...
You capture my Christian college experience exactly. It was "go to college, experience the world, spread your wings...and land right back here where you started, or else."
I like the arguments from Christians that you should just go with it anyway, even if you don't believe or you have doubts about things. I don't see how that's any different than just not going to church or anything anymore. Why spend all that effort being fake? That doesn't even make any sense theologically.
@@brightorangepants Yeah, fear of Hell is the wall that keeps people compliant. Maybe that's by design. When you see that the concept of Hell is illogical based on all the other inconsistencies and problems, Hell is easy to dismiss which leads to a complete deconstruction of everything about Christianity.
_”It makes me think that these people must never have felt God’s love”_
Well who’s fault is that? If I tirelessly pursue a relationship with someone who says they want a relationship with me, but they never seem to reciprocate, their failure to do so is my fault for not trying hard enough?
Welcome to Christian love. Where one sided, passive aggressive, codependent neediness is the norm.
God already showed his love for you through Jesus blood and righteous and the common grace you probably experience every day
@@samuelcalderwood1379 Yeah so Nothing you don't read into a situation yourself, what does that indicate ?
The old adage if you stop believing something and it goes away, it was not real in the first place. This is the power of self delusion and being psychologically primed.
@@stultusvenator3233 l don't know what you mean
As a former worship leader, I have a suspicion as to why it appears that we are more likely to deconvert than pastors; it probably has a lot to do with seminary. Not that seminary gives you some magical resistance to doubt, but that most people whose faith would be challenged by issues of theology and the historicity of the bible, have already been weeded out by the time they would reach the pulpit. Most pastors have already heard these issues and have rationalized then away. Compared to the music leaders who are typically chosen for their passionate faith and their musical skills. For a lot of us, it isn’t until we are squarely in the public eyes of our churches that we start hearing about these issues. I suspect if we looked at the groups of people who wanted to be pastors/worship leaders in their teens, and compared deconversion rates, the two groups wouldn’t be that different.
While I was a hardcore Catholic in my high school and college years I felt that God wanted me to be a priest or a monk (so much so that shortly before I deconverted I visited a monastery in Oklahoma with a former friend who's in seminary last time I checked, before that I was an altar server for a while) and I was also a bit of a theology nerd.
Many things made me question Church doctrine and one of those was finding out that some of my church friends and people I looked up to turned out to be hardcore creationists (and I was raised to have a respect for science) which made me look up Church doctrine when the cognitive dissonance became too much for me and that's when it all fell apart for me (in a nutshell take out the Fall and Original Sin out of the equation and almost all of the theology stops making sense). Because I had put so many of my eggs in one basket for a while I felt a huge void of purpose, and without much direction in life, but in the end it was all for the best and don't regret that.
Maybe I dodged a bullet because it would've been much harder to do so in seminary as the one I wanted to go to is in the middle of Nebraska and is known to be one of the most conservative ones in the country (and the friend I mentioned earlier ended up going there, he was also a hardcore YEC to my horror).
As an atheist who (I'm sorry to admit) struggles with his patience and judgment towards Christians sometimes, your content really helps me keep myself in check to remain respectful. Your intellectual honesty where you will admit where you feel Christians have a good explanation, is admirable.
Thank you both for this respectful and inspiring video!
Thank you, bartkl
Me too
Best presentation yet !
Sadly, I felt a lot of deep pain in Paul's voice from the experiences he had, as they were being unaffirmed by Jon and Tim. By these 'believers' claiming those feelings to not be authentic, it rips open wounds for those who lost much, simply by being thoughtful about seeking truth.
Love and virtual internet hugs to both of you Paul and Jon.
Thank you
If you're too young to question these beliefs, then you are also too young to affirm and commit to them. Excellent
The last time I prayed was for my son to not have anymore seizures, as I was praying he had a drop seizure in front of me and broke his arm. Right in front of my eyes.
I'm really sorry. I hope he's better now.
I’m sorry for your suffering and that of your son. I’m typing from a hospice bed and I can confirm that praying to some invisible guy with a beard has no effect, except perhaps that those who lack the ability to doubt find comfort in the words. As to changing the ‘real’ situation, nope, doctors, nurses and scientists that’s where hope actually lays. I hope your son gets better soon x
@@mikeday5776 If he's invisible, how can you know he has a beard?
@@reubenmanzo2054 true, or he’s a he, or that ‘he’ exists etc.
And some bastards would still say that you haven't believed enough
I'm new to this channel, but loving the content already. Greetings from Finland. I have been an atheist my whole life so it is difficult to understand people who really believe in christianity or any other religion, because the facts are not convinsing that there would be a god or gods. Even as a child when we had religion classes at school I thought it was only a story time. Then, growing up I understood it is good common knowledge to know and understand a bit of every religion. But still, I can't understand the logic behind believing in god(s)..
"so it is difficult to understand people who really believe in christianity or any other religion, because the facts are not convinsing"
The fact that sometimes otherwise intelligent adults fall for such shite just goes to show how awfully powerful, insidious and dangerous brainwashing is, and highlights why such _child abuse_ needs to be recognised as such and outright banned.
@@pineapplepenumbra brainwashing, for sure, in some cases. I have a thought about believing in god(s) and that is, maybe some people need and get consolation from it when they are too afraid of death. 🤔I mean, maybe those people are so afraid of "not being", so they need some kind of consolation and verification that they are not going to dissapear after death. 🤔 I hope you get my idea here, it is always difficult to express thoughts in a language that's not your mother language.
First people don't pick what convinces them this line of thought applies equally to non belief and secondly yes this channel is pretty good personally I hate 85% of his colab vids but his debates and well researched videos are well worth staying for....
Annina, my early life experience is like yours. Personally, I was actively encouraged by my mother to be skeptical about religion, so whenever Christian content was presented to me in school, it felt as if intelligent adults were putting on the masks of ignorant superstitious people. This phenomenon has always been puzzling to me.
"I can't understand the logic behind believing in god(s)" - that is because there is no logic.
What a nice, wholesome, and honest discussion this was, loved every moment of it!
Thanks, Jas!
I was a Christian musician as well. I found that the responsibility of leading others into worship made me take my doubts more seriously. I couldn't do that to those people. If I had doubts but no responsibility, I can't say I would have had the same convictions.
I have a friend who is an atheist and plays in a worship band for a mega church. The church didn't care that he was an atheist, as long as he led worship well. I never really asked him how this sat with his conscience, but I don't think he does it anymore.
@@JM-us3fr I could see where it wouldn't bother them, especially if they are paid, but even if not, getting the experience with that level of sound equipment is priceless. I wouldn't be where I am today without those countless hours of free experience on equipment I still can't afford to this day. Especially mega churches.... I was at one as well... Choreographing light shows for Jesus lol
Ditto on being an ex-worship-leader. As I was working through the questions of my faith I struggled with what I came to understand was emotional manipulation (or in the very least, preparing emotions for acceptance of the spiritual). I recall certain things I could do as a keyboardist that would "conjure" the presence of the Holy Spirit. It was quite reliable, actually.
@@euraquilo @euraquilo dude, exactly. It is really hard to put that responsibility into words. You are the soothsaying henchmen. Looking back, it feels so greasy.
That feeling of deep worship is crazy. And you shaping and molding it on the spot at the center of everyone is so intense. But after hundreds of times, you know it's you doing it. It's like realizing you are the Pied Piper and you just found out that your flute isn't magical, you've just been leading kids into the forest lol.
@@Dee-Eddy Yes, rather than the Pied Piper, in retrospect I think I was probably the holy spirit.
But you know, I kinda miss the music. Not the crazy lyrics, but the music. Sigh.
David Hume’s statement was first said by the Greek philosopher Epicurus. I quote this a lot!
Yes, 2000 years before Hume.
The "no true Scotsman" argument was one I used a lot when I was a Christian. I cringe looking back.
Same! I, as an atheist, now realize how bad that response actually is.
This....was....beautiful.
I am balls deep, right in the middle of my deconstruction journey and I have so much crap to flush out of my head still. I think thos will end up costing me my marriage with 5 children, my wife will never depart from her faith, but the truth is the truth and it hurts to follow it. Thank you for what you do paulogia.....
You have a bit of a road ahead, but there can be a better place on the other side for everyone involved. Hang in!
@@Paulogia thank you for the encouragement.
Imagine being in a relationship for 18 years, only to find out you were cat fished by some old dude in a robe who just wanted 10% of your yearly income. Nigerian princes wish they had a scam this good.
Kenneth Copeland, Crefolo Dolar, Joel Osteen & others feel personally called out 🙂
You don't have to give 10% at all
@@samuelcalderwood1379 but gawd will be disappointed if you don't
@@samuelcalderwood1379 any yet some churches do and some of them shame you into giving money. They’ll get pissy about you not “donating” and try to shame you in front of the congregation
@@user-gk9lg5sp4y no he won't
"Have you tried True Christianity?"
"Well, when you have figured out which of the several thousand denominations is True Christianity, I will give it a listen."
My first steps down the road to leaving the Church came in High School Catechism Class in the Catholic Church. It was a class on comparative religion and, unfortunately for them, my reaction wasn't "How can so many people be this wrong!" but "Wow, these people have no better nor worse propositions for the truth or falsity of their positions than I do." I also read the Legend of Sisyphus by Camus and thought that it described the world I lived in rather than the world I wished were there. After a few years of theological questing here and there, I decided to go and find my own flower in the desert and we had 37 wonderful years together and 2 great children.
Man this hit hard. I was the lead singer in the Christian band OBB. And this discussion is one I continue to have with my still Christian family. My brother Nich is the tour manager for winter jam and he is out with skillet right now. And he was saying how John Cooper is doing a whole talk from stage telling the audience that they need to just stop deconstructing their faith and suppose the bible is true and if the evidence doesn't affirm that then it's not right. And my brother and most Christians, I feel agree with this. Great video thanks.
Also we did a festival with these guys and I looked up to them so much at the time!! It's cool to see he went on a similar journey to me.
So happy seeing Jon on this channel! I was a huge fan of Hawk Nelson during my Christian days. I even had a meet and greet with the band when they were in The Netherlands. I was so happy to see him deconstructing a few years after I did. He's such a nice guy. Respect him a lot.
Paul said: _"I was losing the person I talked to every couple of minutes."_
Don't worry, I still talk to it. I'm just no longer pretending it's someone other than myself that I'm talking to.
Thiiiiiiiiis. Thought I was the only one.
Great episode! The way you and John bounced off each other was excellent!
And the complete lack of "umm's" and "like's" is uncanny...
Do you mean all of the personal opinions and self-defeating arguments? I'm sure you would think this was a good discussion. WE ARE SPECULATION VISION!!!!
Great episode, great guest - thank you!
I love how especially north american protestants are denying the catholics' christianity while at the same time arguing in favour of christianity with bringing up the worldwide percentage of christians and the age of their supposedly unbroken tradition - exclusivly relying on catholicism in both cases.
Probably even the witnesses and mormons are suddenly christians when it fits the situation I guess..
Right. We need a good name for this. The Christian Catholic paradox? The Divided Christian House fallacy?
I've seen lots of collaborations between Christian Nationalist Protestants and Mormons in particular. They ignore their differences if they have the same political aims.
Many of them are even collaborating with anti-woke atheists when it suits them!
@@christianjalexander
Yes, Mitt Romney comes to mind first.
Not really a christian, but against the gays, progressives, secularism, science, "the left" - so it's still close enough as long as he doesn't show his holy undergarments in their churches.
@@kai_plays_khomus Glenn Beck, the Mormon conservative talk radio host, was even more of a mainstay in my circles when I was a Republican Christian.
@@christianjalexander
I didn't know Glenn Beck was mormon as well. I'm very interested in US politics, but I'm not from the US - that's why I'm not as informed as I'd like to be.
This is my first exposure to Jon Steingard, & am really impressed with the open-mindedness & fluidity with which he approaches the subject, & I suspect, many other things in life. He's also quite skilled at distilling complex concepts & communicating them in simple, understandable language so that all might ponder. I absolutely LOVE how he reframes the age old "Problem of Evil" sans its moral component as the "Problem of Suffering." It is a far more accurate descriptive for what's really at the core of the dilemma. I'm gonna use it from this day forward & leave evil out of it! In fact, I don't believe I've ever encountered an individual who was MORE aligned with my personal beliefs, ideologies, METHODOLOGY & sort of sliding scale of the compellingness of conclusions drawn, than this dude, at first listen anyway. It's so exciting to find someone new for whom I can now seek out content. I'm hoping he might also lead me to valid arguments that reach different conclusions than my own, as I agree that it's important to expose oneself to differing viewpoints, & I fear that the echo chamber of the algorhythm has failed to challenge my beliefs nearly enough for quite a long time now.
As always, a great discussion, Paul. I've grown to count on your channel as a consistent source of quality content, & you as a creator of very nearly irreproachable merit to whom I can return to again & again to hear the voice of reason. Thanks! ✌️
When I took Religion and Reason 22 years ago in college, the argument I used against the notion that there could be only as much suffering as is necessary was the notion of a baby deer dying in a forest fire where nobody ever finds out. Does the extra suffering of that animal lead to some moral good that justifies the pain? Not impossible, but seems like a major assumption.
Yeah, when theists argue that there is exactly the correct amount of suffering, they have to argue that some justification exists for even the most extreme forms of 'seemingly' unnecessary suffering. That's not a very easy position to hold.
And, if the universe is optimally tuned to have just the right amount of suffering, why would we be sad about it? Did not God write his morals into our hearts so we can understand it implicitly. Oh no, "no man can comprehend God's plan."
A man walks in the mountains alone. He gets caught in a rockfall, trapping his legs and arms. He dies, slowly starving to death. Must be something worthwhile to come from that kind of suffering, right?
This is a fallen world,a result of sin
@@samuelcalderwood1379 No, this is a world where such thing simply happen because there's no god.
I've been lurking for a while. This is the most impactful episode of yours I've seen or heard. I needed to take an ativan, the episode is not over. Peace.
Wow. Thank you. So glad it is helpful.
I grew up listening to Christian pop-rock like Hawk Nelson, Switchfoot, skillet, reliant K, etc. So it’s really cool to see Jon on this channel being so open. I think I even had a signed Hawk Nelson album and some 3-D glasses from their concert lol. Also, he’s very well-versed on ethical theories. When he brought up virtue ethics, I was like “YES, YES.”
As a life-long atheist, I still remember my first encounter with the bible - it was *so obvious* the exact same kind of mythology as others I had already read, I had zero doubt that that is what it was. I was very young at the time.
All my later encounters with apologetics (which happened when I was ... what ... somewhere between 20 and 30 - as a German, apologetics was really unfamiliar to me when I first got on Usenet and learned that what I was was called an atheist. Anyway, not a single one of those apologetics ever seemed to me to be something to take seriously. They were too absurd - all of them. I'm now almost 62, and that has not changed. If there really are all those sharp minds on the theology side, why have all the apologetics I have seen looked like the results of, at best, a first-year philosophy student (and usually much worse)? For me, religion is a case of _there's no there there._ (I can see how it might be different for someone with life-long indoctrination (when I strain), but lacking that indoctrination, it all seems a bit laughable.)
Born in the UK and my dad is English, but my mom’s American so I’ve grown up in the states. Was raised loosely religiously but it was never something either of my parents took seriously (or really even believe in now). I was interested in all sorts of mythologies as a kid and when I actually read segments of the Bible for the first time I had the same reaction- it was so obviously no more legitimate than any Ancient Greek or Mesopotamian or Native American or any other myth from any time or any other region. Had doubts about Christianity as early as 6 and knew I was an atheist by about 16. Indoctrination does wonders and I’m lucky I avoided it, so many around me in the American south didn’t.
Ditto. I first encountered the bible at school. Never had even a conversation about religion before that. And the same, it just looked a made up story like all the others
God uses the lowly people of this world and not the so called great minds like Stephen Hawking
@ Samuel Calderwood
You are just a wellspring of hot takes in this comment section. Lots of overly-confident assertions on a number of topics.
I'm 70. I was raised Christian. I never knew a single other person who _wasn't_ a Christian - as far as I knew, at least - all through my childhood (at least through my teenage years). But I don't remember ever _believing_ it.
I was a big fan of ancient Greek mythology as a kid, and the Bible just seemed like the same thing. It was really hard for me to understand how adults could take that seriously. I knew there _were_ other religions in the world, even if we never heard about them. (And _certainly_ never heard about atheism!)
Of course, back then, back before the Republican Party in America adopted their "Southern strategy" of deliberately wooing white racists, religion didn't seem to be political. Everyone I knew just seemed to believe this stuff for an hour on Sundays and then ignored it the rest of the week. It didn't seem _important._
To this day, people in my state don't seem to get overly concerned about my atheism. But they can get hysterically angry that I'm a progressive Democrat. I just think that's so weird. How much of this is just tribalism?
I’m only at 11:00, but I’m hearing SO MUCH of my own thoughts, experience, and sense of loss and disorientation in this. I LOVE that John said that he was willing to be HONEST in his inquiry, and I’ve said for years that’s what made the difference between keeping on in the faith or ending up the nonbeliever I am today.
As a “Recovering Catholic” (ie, someone who was born and raised Roman Catholic, but who has since left the Church), I can personally say that the question “Have you tried REAL Christianity” has a particular resonance. The first stage in my leaving Christianity involved me leaving the Catholic Church, but still 'trying out' all manner of different types of Christianity; from the Pentecostals to the LDS. All the while trying to find some version of Christianity that 'fit' with both my feelings, as well as how I perceived the world and my intellectual understanding of it. Not only did this long process not end with my returning to Christianity, but as time went on, even the fact that were so many different denominations to start with to began to add to my doubts. The very existence of so many different denominations served as a kind of proof of the weakness of claims made by so many that not only was Christianity 'The Truth' (tm), but that their particular version of Christianity was the 'One True Version' of Christianity, despite all claims to the contrary. I couldn't help but wonder how so many thousands of different denominations could all claim to be the 'One True Faith' all at the same time, and this just served to undermine all of them. Given the fact that there were so many people who had questioned different aspects of Christianity throughout history, from Martin Luther to Dr. Ehrman (the vast majority of whom had spent far more time and energy researching than I ever could or would) it seemed clear to me that the very idea that only ONE out of the thousands was 'right', and the rest were all wrong, was patently ridiculous. It seemed far more likely to me that they were ALL mistaken. That was the way I felt then, some 30 years ago, and I have yet to find any compelling reason to doubt that now, despite literally decades worth of studying both philosophy and various religions, both Judeo-Christian and otherwise.
The Catholic church is a false religion evangelicals all believe the same main points
I’m not even finished with the video but it’s already one of the best things I’ve ever seen. As an exvangelical myself, it’s amazing to me that atheists understand me more than Christians…..maybe cos I’m probably atheist myself.
Paul is largely to blame. 😆 Goddamnit, Paul…and thank you. 🤟🏻
You're welcome?
One day every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is lord
@@samuelcalderwood1379
In your imagination, you mean?
@@samuelcalderwood1379 are you trying to make it sound more culty than it already does? Cause that's how you make it sound culty.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 KINKY
There’s a difference between answering an argument and refuting it. Christians do find secular arguments easy to answer, but most of them are impossible to disprove
You guys work well together.Liked Jon as your guest,Paul.I'm impressed how he,like you,are good at reducing difficult questions/subjects to the lowest common denominator-or at least-to an understandable level.
I fully agree, especially with the last bit. It's what people, even non theists often fail to properly do, just simplifying question to their basics and strip it fro as many assumptions as possible.
And as an example: is there a god, is actually not a simple basic question. The basis is that we live in a universe and we have questions about it and we might wonder if a god is an answer to those questions.
So basic questions would be like: is this universe as we expect it to be with or without a god, or if we look for answers and find them, can we expect those answers to be a god or not a god.
Then the answer is pretty simple too: god is not an option. All answers we've found are natural and none point to a god. It wouldn't just be unreasonable to expect to find a god is an answer, it's unreasonable to consider a god as an option.
But we love, does the universe as well? Well, is the universe as we'd expect it to be if it was loving? Absolutely fucking not. I would expect to have found cures to all cancers about 10,000 years ago and none of them would have serious side effects or long lasting recovery times.
That does pose an interesting thing: The universe itself experiences no beauty or love, but we are a part of the universe. We (and a lot of other organisms) actually add our emergent properties to the universe. So in a way the universe is able to love and value and enjoy beauty - it's just small parts of it that can and most of it can't. We literally enhance the universe with our aspects that the universe never had before the universe changed to have us (organisms) in it.
Not that the universe cares or should care. My legs don't give a shit about me either and they might be in shambles and they don't care about that either. Cut them off, see if they care - nope, not a care in the world.
I do enjoy knowing a thing or two about my legs so I can enjoy being able to use them though and reduce risks that might make shit hard or painful for me - same with the universe. If you respect the shit around you, that will reduce the risk of getting seriously fucked up by it and it will make it easier to deal with shit and/or recover. It's not at all a guarantee. Bad shit will happen no matter what you do, but if you disrespect the world around you I can guarantee you that you'll have a rough time. More bad shit will happen and it will often be worse and it will be much harder to get support, to deal with shit, and/or to recover. Life is super complex, but its basics aren't at difficult to understand - it's all probability and by gathering information we can shift the probabilities in our favour.
"But bad shit happens anyway, so it didn't work." No, people are terrible at taking a step back and seeing that on a smaller scale the probabilities still apply/applied, but they might look very skewed to a particular observer.
@@stylis666 Good surmise of things.I agree with it all.Thanks man.
I have never heard the term "guiltar" before, I love it
I really love Jon’s style. He’s gentle, but he doesn’t beat around any bushes either. He’s clear and well spoken, and I love his ideas. Personally, I’d love to see more of him on things not strictly about deconstruction (not that this was bad lol, any Jon is good)
To me, the response to the problem of evil that says: "but perhaps you just can't see the good that will come out of the evil and that good could not exist without evil" is uncompelling. If God is all-powerful, surely he would find a way to make that good possible without evil, without suffering? Or is he unable to do that? Then he's not all-powerful.
Same with the argument that he allows suffering to produce righteous individuals; if he’s all-powerful, he could have made them that way from the beginning.
Or he is as described in the OT - a psychopathic, lying, manipulative mass murderer.
@@jonovens7974 who is also not described as omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient or omnibenevolent. Overall a much more cohesive picture
Yes God will renew all things in his own time
@@Ironsuaba Ah yes the mutually exclusive god, I do like that definition, it so funny when a believer defines their god out of existence.
The problem I would say with Jon's part about Virtue theory as a defense for suffering, is that the omni being proposed by the Bible would have had to have created the framework of cause and effect that would require suffering in order to gain those virtues. He chose to make suffering a requirement for those virtues he valued.
It's one of the many problems. The basic problem is actually that it's rationalization. We see that many people who suffer also show good characteristics they might have not learned otherwise. God is assumed and instead of wondering if inserting a god is justified, theists rationalize its insertion by excusing impossible and unethical behaviour.
Here's why it's impossible by the way: if god is all-powerful, he could've just given us a different way to learn those virtues. He didn't, so he's weaksauce. Why aren't our brains just a little bit bigger so slavery would have been gone 10,000 years ago? Even under the physics and logic we have now that wouldn't violate anything or make any lesson less valuable or less of a relative challenge. So even a god who is too stupid to make better logic and physics, could've just solved many of our problems by making us smarter.
But what if we grant them all of their assumptions, assertions, and rationalizations, does that solve any problems? Is god able to fear losing a loved one, worry about breaking a leg, plan life according to its temporary nature, be excited in anticipation of a cup of coffee? Who the fuck is god to tell us what is virtuous, valuable, moral, etc? He isn't all-powerful at all; he can't possibly be. All the things that make our mortal lives so valuable are absolutely 100% impossible for any god to do. Gods can't even love because we add literally nothing that a god doesn't already have, and we can lose all of it and a god can't. Nothing we ever do can have any value to any god and nothing a god could do would be impressive or virtuous to us. I mean, would you be impressed if I told you I can type letters on a keyboard? Yet, learning and doing that was infinitely more of a challenge than it would be a challenge for a god over an entire span of any existence a god created to personally guide every particle.
Is it fair, if you can't suffer like I do, to ask me to suffer for any reason, even if it is to learn virtues you can never experience and are only valuable to me because I am mortal? Even if those are the most beautiful gifts to give to a person, if you're not risking anything, you have zero respect from me and you have zero right to ask anything of me. One of the virtues I've learned is to never ask something of someone that I am not willing to do myself for someone else or have already done for someone else; you need to at least understand what you're asking of someone and be willing to pay the same price and take the same risks for someone else, or be a leech and a hypocrite.
So the problem of suffering isn't just that it exists, but that no god can suffer. Gods have no risks and no challenges. Their character is empty and worthless to us. They cannot serve as an example or as an object of our respect. Gods are absolutely useless when it comes to value and moral judgements. They would at best be a useful tool for practical things and all research done to see if a god changes the probabilities of things when you pray like the scriptures tell people to shows that gods do absolutely nothing practical and at best serve as a weak placebo - with horrible long term negative side effects - that has about a 50% chance of backfiring and working as a negative placebo instead. Just asking literally any of the ~8 million people to help has countless of helpful short and long term benefits and way better effects as a placebo, not to mention how practical it is with actual people being able to actually do actual things.
So, gods are completely useless and even with the limited uses they're toxic and have a large chance of misfiring and harming instead of helping. If person fucks up, you can just ask another or try and solve the problems together. Win - win (and a whole bunch of hidden wins).
So god’s a consequentialist
@@joygibbons5482 maybe I don't remember what I was talking about 9 months and a newborn ago. Haha
I really appreciate the down-to-earth wisdom coming from this video. Thanks for sharing.
Hearing stories about deconversion makes me realize how little faith I had in the beginning. My story was basically “I thought about it more and atheisim and agnosticism just made more sense to me.” I guess there was a bit of struggle (mainly due to my fear of death). But for the most part it was nothing crazy. Maybe I’ve just always been a skeptical person.
I felt something similar. I "became" an atheist when I stopped trying to be a theists (i.e. I never was what most people would consider a believer). There have been some negative effects on my life, but being honest with myself was a good tradeoff.
It always hurts a little though, when people describe just how painful it was for them. I am lucky to have dogged that bullet.
My story was that my parents stopped going to church when i was fairly young, maybe first or second grade at most. They stopped because my sib was getting to the point of questioning things to be rebellious, and i wasn't helping because i made a fuss every time they brought out the wine and i could smell it. They stopped going and were never religious enough to bring religion into the home that i remember.
So i already missed the formative years of indoctrination and had a skeptic in my household.
In third or fourth grade, i had a friend who asked me to come with to their wednesday church after school thing and i was *shocked* at the stories in the bible they were memorizing but not understanding. One of which was the flood myth that day, and i went out of my way to explain, not only how it would never be possible logistically, but morally, for a loving god to do what was in the bible, but i pointed out things i saw as abuse because i would never see my loving parents act that way to each other or to me and still consider it love. I was not invited back.
I was right, though. Some of those kids (especially the girls) grew up to think that a relationship required the other person to be jealous and test them because that's the "loving" relationship they had with god. Some of these religiously brought up kids even told me my parents didn't have to pretend to love each other around them. And that was the last straw, where i knew no matter what i could never be christian.
I looked at other religions but never felt anything for them since i'd never really been primed to need a religion, and by high school decided that i must just be atheist since no god was more believable than a science approach to life. It was a tiny step from agnostic to atheist, but thankfully it had no destructive deconversion and no one around me blamed me or gaslit me about it. The worst i dealt with is uncomfortable family gatherings where they'll give religious platitudes to make each other feel better while i sit there aware of the hypocracy
Livin' the dream bro!
@@catelynh1020 What a superb story of your journey toward atheism. I especially loved the part where you related "my parents didn't have to pretend to love each other around them" -- what an illustrative contrast demonstrating how ideas (religious or otherwise) have real-life consequences! Atheism is a good first step into a life of honesty. Thanks for sharing.
@@ferocient likewise for your excellent use of sarcasm, but I don't think that's religion related, either
I just discovered you... I absolutely loved this conversation. Just so good.
Welcome!
I have listened to Bart Ehrman tell an interviewer that what first got him to agnosticism was when he learned to read Greek and Hebrew. He realized that what he thought he knew in English wasn’t quite the same and that ruined his idea of infallibility in the Word.
I get Jon’s explanation about not really feeling the expected emotions. I never felt excitement or joy during a praise and worship event. Praying left me empty. Reading the Bible only left me feeling sad and unfulfilled. It all felt fake, contrived.
My deconversion was kinda like a pitchfork, with the prongs of suffering, bigotry & hate, pastoral sex scandals, rising radicalism, and the omni-traits in general hitting me with the wombo combo. It got to the point where I was literally crying in my car asking God to explain why they allowed all this to happen and begging them for a sign that they are real for days. I fell into a deep depression that lasted years as my friends abandoned me like they were quantum-entangled with my faith.
I would have given ANYTHING to stay in the faith and keep my world the same. I just needed a sign - all the bad actors getting their due instead of getting away with it, for example. Maybe a piece of toast with Jesus on it. But no, that was too much for a god to do for a devout follower.
I am so sorry that happened to you. I hope you have kinder people around you now.
That's pretty rough bro. When my brothers were going through their deconversions, I was able to be there for them and tell them it was okay to question things. No one was there for me when I went through mine, but mine was a very slow burn that lasted 3-4 years, and I was always the odd one out in my family, so it wasn't really anything new.
I feel you. I too found that my "friends" decided that they weren't really friends when I stopped believing what they do.
Two wrongs doesn't make a right,the bible says not to put God to the test by asking for a sign ,you are to live by faith
@@samuelcalderwood1379 my faith died when god didn't stop church leaders from using their position to molest children and assault women, when my grandpa died painfully from skin cancer, and when I saw a black man nearly get lynched for going on a date with a white woman. In 2015.
I want to thank you Paul for the baptism story. Even though it is clear to me now that I was always an atheist, I thought I had found a community in the Mormon church (as an adult) and I can't remember a time that I've felt more loved than at my baptism. I would love to find my way back to feeling like that again.
And, while the memory is certainly marred by the way my time in the LDS church ended, it is still a very powerful memory that - every once in a while - pushes me to consider attending a Sunday meeting. My rational mind stops me, but my emotions still, years later, haven't gotten the memo that it won't work.
Mormonism is a false religion
I'm glad the algorithm thought I might like to revisit my deconstruction/deconversion all these years later. Some of these arguments against those of us who deconstruct I've heard many times over the years and... they hurt. They really just hurt. And hearing two different perspectives on how it feels to hear these things has been positive and validating. ❤
I also think it *feels* like Christian musicians are more likely to deconstruct because Christian musicians are in the public eye and, necessarily, have to be public about stepping away from Christianity as it directly impacts their career. I know many, many, many private, ordinary people who have stepped away, also, we just don't end up on podcasts because we have no public platform.
I really enjoy listening to your interviews like this. Jon S is a great guest. Thoughtful, on a journey of discovery, and seeking understanding.
Great video. Thanks Paul.
This was so well said! You’re so good at articulating these things Paul! You have been an important part of my own deconversion and have given me good arguments and effective ways to communicate them! Thank you for all you do! You are changing lives!
Appreciate the kind words, norm.
Yay a paulogia with guest!
PS There's an error in the quote on screen at 2:40 as it says 'he is not malevolent' when it should be 'he is malevolent'.
Yeah, fix it quick or someone will quote mine it!
"Guiltar" love it :D
Just to note, I think that musicians are more inclined to be self-reflective and creative thinkers, and I think that is trouble for dogmatic religious thought, especially where that dogma hurts people.
Oh. Thanks. Now I feel stupid. My head was saying "Gilltar" rather than "Guiltar", and it made no sense at all. That sentence makes so much more sense now.
@@TheCount991 If you promise not to feel stupid, I promise not to tell you how long it took me to figure out what he was saying.
Yeah, my deprogramming was painful. But I'm so thankful that I'm no longer a believer, with all the positives and negatives it entails.
Ok. So what nonsense do you now believe?
@@Justas399 Hi ;o). I think what I believe is not nonsense. I know only a microscopic amount of stuff about the best studies in a wide variety of fields - cosmology, astrophysics, chemistry, biochemistry, biology, paleontolgy, archaeology, history, psychology, neuroscience, philosophy, religions. I prefer to get my information from people who've spent decades studying topics in a disciplined way, rather than folks who've done their "research" by watching a few youtube videos. So I think what I believe now is not nonsense. Best wishes.
@@mikeharrison1868 No field you mentioned supports atheism. Atheism is nonsense because it has no facts to support its claim and it leads to dead ends.
@@Justas399
What does atheism claim?
This is hands down one of my favorite videos of yours. You and Jon together were awesome. I have so much respect for both of you and you have helped me in my deconstruction so much. As an evangelical for 40+ years of my life, I am so glad to have that life behind me. Life is so much more beautiful to me now than it ever was. I found my meaning in life by just taking in every day as much as I can. Paul, please keep up the great work and thank you.
Excellent episode as always. Love this guest; brilliant and honest. It’s amazing how the experiences of thinking Christians do converting tend to be very similar, especially as you all pointed out, when the cognitive dissonance between your experience and their dogma becomes too much mentally for you to bear, leaving your only two options either accepting reality, Or doubling down to reinforce their fantasy world.
What a small world. I remember listening to Hawk Nelson when I was younger after purchasing a CD from a christian bookstore. I shed my faith years later during my travels in the military. Now here I am in college studying to be an evolutionary biologist, listening to one of the members of that band, on one of my favorite channels, talk about being a former Christian. I haven't even thought about that band in like 15 years. Wacky.
You will know then that the human chimp connection has just been disproven then
@@samuelcalderwood1379
Chimps would be embarrassed to claim you. :)
@@samuelcalderwood1379 Sure it has Skippy. Sure it has.
“Is he neither able or willing? Then why call him god” the last part of that quote
Epicurus.
@@pineapplepenumbra Gotta love how Greek philosophy overtook the actual Middle Eastern source material in prominence over Christendom, the whole Omni-Omni vision of the Anunnaki tribal God of Abraham comes from Plato's Maximally Great Being, which was actually Plato arguing that religion is absurd and humans are apes, much to the consternation of Creationists for the past 2,000 years.
@@autobotstarscream765 "comes from Plato's Maximally Great Being"
OK, it seems as if I don't know as much about Plato as I should do.
I'm surprised that my Classical Civilisation lecturer didn't mention this*, as she hated the main monotheistic cults, but thank you very much for mentioning it. I wish I could thumb you up more than once.
*Maybe she did and I was ill that day?
As I recall, Plato wasn't arguing for atheism, but against benevolent gods. You might note... the greek pantheon isn't exactly nice.
@@chameon378 now now to be fair to the Greek Pantheon a lot of times some of them were bad to others was cause humans did something bad or didn’t keep their word. Artemis sending those animals to kill people for killing her sacred animal makes sense if you think about it. Afterall isn’t that essentially what happens in the Jon Wick movies?
I just want to add my voice to the chorus of support to you both for this discussion. This was such a measured and balanced response including both philosophical and personal. What a genuine man Jon seems. I really appreciate how frequently we received reminders that reasonable people find themselves in different places with these arguments.
My deconversion began with the complete injustice of Hell. A sixteen year old generally good kid who has heard the gospel, but didn't believe and then dies in a car wreck -- judgment: roast in hell forever!! Even someone like Hitler doesn't deserve to be burned for all eternity. A God who thinks that is a good idea, or the right thing to do is a psychopath. That was the first thread of unraveling the sweater for me.
"Eternal torment" sounds very much like something a Bronze-age priest would threaten skeptic tribe members with if they failed to fall in line. It aways gets to me how humans are able to devise these horrible, psychotic punishments for fellow humans that disagree with their beliefs. Says more about human nature than a (hypothetical) metaphysical figure.
Well done for having better morals than their alleged gods.
If a human behaved like their gods, or even like most of their alleged prophets (there have been no prophets, only liars), they would be horrified by such behaviour.
Let's face it, how many people, if they saw a bloke dragging his tied up son up a hill, with a large knife in his other hand, would say,
"You carry on mate",
if they asked what he was up to, and he said,
"A voice in my head, claiming to be god, told me to take my son up this hill and cut his throat when we're at the top, as a sacrifice."
? Most would call the police and expect him to get shot or sectioned, yet they have the gall to follow cults started by this man (admittedly, he, like moses, was a composite character, but you get the point).
I think the greatest injustice associated with hell is the evangelical version. The version in which Hitler isn’t in hell. Hitler believed in god, and apparently that’s all it takes to get into heaven.
I was always taught that no good deed is good enough to get you in, and no bad deed is bad enough to get you out. The only way you can get in is to believe in god and Jesus.
@@nm1915 I agree, although I've heard some argue that it's not just about belief, after all, Satan believed in god, it's about accept those creepy characters as your saviours, and accepting them into your heart.
@@artemisia4718 Satan is a made up character (originally it was just a title, and was also applied to humans, the character was expanded on by early christians who had a childish problem with god being responsible for evil, even though the OT has a few verses that make it clear that it's gods ARE responsible for evil), however, IF I believed in such childish nonsense, I would easily believe that the torah, bible and qur'an were from Satan.
Think about it; what kind of character wants to be worshipped? A mature, secure, holy, calm, caring, godlike character, or an insecure, immature, narcissistic, sadistic, petty character?
What kind of character is so illogical as to base saving people on their beliefs, rather than what kind of people they actually are, and, in many of these belief systems, is supposed to torture unbelievers for eternity? All round these "gods" sound pretty Satanic to me.
IF I believed in Satan, I would believe that you've ALL been conned by him, rather than being conned by sneaky, corrupt humans, which is the case.
Seriously, though, what makes religious people so ARROGANT that they all are so convinced that they couldn't be fooled by a multi-millennia old Uber-Angel?*
In "The Usual Suspects" there's the line, "the greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world that he didn't exist", but, IF he did exist, then what greater trick than to convince the world to worship him as "god", and build temples, synagogues, cathedrals and mosques to his “glory”???
Some of the Gnostics go further, and may have got it right, when they said that the creator of this Universe was an idiot god!
*That's another question that the religious _never even try to answer._
This is a truly respectful and dare I say loving approach to the discussion. I had the same challenges and left the church a long time ago and became and Atheist, and I’m still learning. Great stuff!
I’ve really missed Jon’s voice in this sphere. Thanks for having him on!
I was not ready for the discussion about wanting to have the same experiences as other Christians in regards to hearing the voice of God and being so desperate for that that I convinced myself it was happening. For years I wondered what was wrong with me and why I didn’t have the same experience as my fellow church goers. That was such a big part of what made church cold for me and why I stopped going.
You should have a trigger warning :p
I can relate to everything you described, to a T. The guilt, the fear and the cognitive dissonance of this period of my life caused me extreme emotional pain, I was a bowl of wrath and self-hate. Especially because members of my immediate family were in the select "we have visions" group. But it ended! I feel so happy now that I have "come out" as a skeptic, now that I can ask questions and no arguments are off-limits. The cognitive dissonance and the self-hate are melting away...
I wish you healing and happiness on your journey, friend!
The bible does not promise a crash and bang when you get saved
I served as a worship pastor for over 20 years, and now working as a chaplain, I have found that most of my band members were more engaged in the emotional release of the faith. Their was always a sense of believing in their perceptions of God "touching" them through music as proof of His reality. That's why I believe most could more easily go from one church/gig to another without much theological conflict. When I as a pastor on staff tried to engage most musicians with more philosophical conversation, the musicians would become frustrated and shut down the conversation before it could be started. I think this is true of most Christians, at least in the USA. I see a lot more commitment to reading devotionals than actually studying the content of the Bible. Most sermons are based on almost a universal set of Scriptures, skipping over thousands of Scriptures that don't support the principle of the accepted Christian narrative.
Great episode. When Jon talked of wanting the vivid experiences everyone else seemed to be having I was transported back to young teen me and the deep sadness and feeling that I just must not be worthy of God's love it gave me. Like Jon, I couldn't just pretend I felt it and I believe it did contribute to an overall sense of unworthiness that I still struggle with 40+ years on even though I haven't believed in the Christian god for most of that time.
I tried to have those vivid experiences, too. But absolutely nothing happened. Absolutely nothing. They made us go on retreats were they primed us for the power of God to reveal itself but it was just manipulation. When it comes to genuine spiritual experiences I hear a deafening silence.
I’m with you Paul. When I was in High School I was a touring Christian concert singer with 50 out of town concerts a year. I was in church 4x a week. I was an international missionary. I was spending all my free time at work or church or Christian retreats. I struggled with my belief but I was 100% committed.
When I left the Protestant church for the Catholic one, I lost a lot. I was shunned by some friends.
When I left the Catholic one, and Christianity, years ago I lost everything. I lost my faith, my job, my career, my belief system, my marriage (it was abusive), all of my belongings. It was just me an my 4 year old and my car when I left. I lost EVERYTHING. Christians saying this was because of sin or because I was never a Christian or whatever, is just the most unkind thing. It confirms to me that Christianity is wrong, because it’s followers are so horrible.
ETA- the argument of punishment and why don’t you do bad if you have no belief in god:
I stay away from those people. If they realize they can just “ask for forgiveness” then they will do all the bad things.
So glad you found your way out
@@Paulogia thank you! I have been watching your channel for a few months, it looks like you are happier now after your move and I’m so happy for you!
Hope things have turned around and you've been able to build a good life.
@@JosephKano thank you!
I am working on it. ❤️
"I wanna know what you're leaving, and I wanna know where your going." Is a phrase that I hear (in some form) a lot as an ex-mormon. The LDS doctrine and modern day leaders lean REALLY heavily into this concept that the only way to be "truly happy", experience "true joy", or "be your best self" is within the church. If you start asking questions that people don't have good answers to, many will revert to "if you leave the church, where will you go to find happiness?"
Even recently in 2016, one of the highest sitting leaders in the church gave an address to the church membership titled "To Whom Shall We Go?" that is littered with this sort of abusive rhetoric. "If any of you is faltering in your faith, I ask you the same question that Peter asked: 'To whom shall you go?' if you choose to become inactive or to leave the restored Church ... where will you go? ... Where will you go to learn more about [God]? ... Where will you go to find people who live by a prescribed set of values and standards? ... Where will you go to experience the joy that comes through [temple ordinances]?" Etc.
All very manipulative language. If the church was indeed as true as they claim, you'd think that exploration of ideas and deconstruction of beliefs would be encouraged. Cause they would always lead to more devotion and faith.
Soooooo exciting! My two favorite creators on one video!! I appreciate you thoughts and insight ❤️
When I first realized that everything I believed was probably wrong, it was as if the ground shifted under my feet. My mind lost its moorings and I was adrift. It was extremely unsettling.
I’ve always seen my “deconstruction” as a lonely journey. It hasn’t been until the last few years that I have discovered there are many people who have similar ideas.
I'm 70 years old. I _never_ heard about other atheists when I was a kid. Everyone I knew was a Christian, and we didn't even hear about other religions in the news, let alone about atheism.
On the other hand, it was easy for me, as an atheist. I didn't _have_ to deconvert, since I don't remember ever believing it. I'm not sure why. But to me, it just seemed like some weird adult thing. Everyone agreed to believe it for an hour on Sundays, and then they ignored it the rest of the week. It didn't seem important.
I recognize that I had it easy, though. That "lonely journey" couldn't have been easy. I hope it's better _now!_
@@Bill_Garthright I didn't think atheists existed. And I never met a gay person until college, and I was shocked because I thought they were all so deep in the closet you'd never know.
This is what religion does to a young mind. It's child abuse, plain and simple. Don't shelter your children from reality! You're not doing them any favors.
@@69eddieD
I was always a big reader. I know there was a time when I couldn't read, but that's hard to even imagine now. When I was a kid, I always had my nose in a book. And since I lived in a very small town, the selection was quite limited.
So I read tons of things that wouldn't have appealed to me normally - most of it stuff far outside of what would be considered "age appropriate." I mean, I was a big fan of Charles Dickens as a kid. My high school English class cured me of that, eventually, but as a kid, I read a lot of Dickens.
But I read a huge variety of things, just because I didn't have a big selection available, and I was always desperate to find _something_ new to read. Heh, heh. So I think I knew about a lot of things just from my reading.
I don't remember reading anything specifically about atheists, but I certainly read stuff about lots of different religions, past and present. No one talked about homosexuality back then - not _at all,_ as far as I could tell - but I was aware of it through reading. Heck, back then, even non-white people didn't exist as far as my personal experience went.
Reading definitely helped me in school, but I think it helped me avoid being stuck in a conservative, white, straight, Christian bubble like nearly everyone else (as far as I could tell) in my small Nebraska town.
@@Bill_Garthright There was no way I could read things my parents didn't approve of. They even controlled the music I listened to. They took a lot of great records away from me and destroyed them.
The real world was a shock to me. I wasn't prepared. I was incredibly sheltered until I went to college. Then my parents couldn't really control me any more.
@@69eddieD
Wow! Well, I hope things are going better for you now. I just hope that other people in that situation can find their way out, too, eventually.
If your response to a issue is to describe how the arguments might work and the reasons that people don't believe them rather than just giving the argument, you already know it is a bad argument.
Painful & scary, the fear that I was truly 'alone', we are all alone & there's no one out there that can help us. WE are it!
That's the thing I remember the most.
But today, I see it foolish and childish. When I was operated, I was scared but I was in the hands of my doctor, & what happens happens. And it never crossed into my mind to pray what so ever. The pain when I was in the recovery room was brutal, but never begged & pray to anyone to make the pain go away doing so was as stupid as praying the tooth-fairy to make the tooth-ache go away.
I like Cosmic Skeptic's take on the problem of suffering - the suffering of animals (due to parasites, predation, starvation, etc) which cannot be answered by free will.
Paul, I want to push back a little with what you said about how there could be some morally sufficient reason that God could have for allowing suffering.
Yes, I'd say such a reason could exist, but if so it would still be the case that God is then not omnipotent because there would be some external requirement placed on his creative abilities, forcing him to behave one way instead of another. If he MUST create suffering in order to also create a certain kind of flourishing, then there is at least one logically permitted reality that he cannot actualize, and he is therefore not omnipotent.
One problem I have with that particular counter argument is Christians love to tell you want God wants of us. But just about every time they are faced with answering about apparently bad things, then the mind of God is utterly incomprehensible to people; we just need to have faith and trust that whatever it is, it was the right thing that God wanted.
Bad stuff is the result of sin ,is most bad stuff not man created? and if God intervined every time man was bad , well that would be alot
I push back with:
"There is no acceptable moral reason as some actions are simply unforgivable. Worse, some people live their entire life in suffering. So, how does the suffering benefit them? If their suffering doesn't benefit them... then they are just lab rats/slaves to the whim of that "god" which permit such actions."
His argument has been used by proponents of Eugenics... "these people must die for the good of the rest of us. Their suffering helps the rest of is."
Paul is simply being _too_ kind here with his stance...
@@aralornwolf3140 I of course agree with your statements, but they are much more difficult to support by sounds argumentation, whereas my objection is more straightforward and incontrovertible. When poking a whole in someone's argument, it's best to go for the simplest, most effective option.
@@samuelcalderwood1379 but sin itself was created by God, so it still comes back to him. The free will excuse just does not and cannot work without sacrificing God's "Omni" qualities.
I'm glad Paul made the point that leaving Christianity is more analogous to finding out your wife never existed than it is to leaving your actual, physical wife
I really appreciate the both of you, you both know exactly how I and so many of us feel and what we all went through/ are going through. Thank you ❤️
Jon's distintion between evil and suffering is spot on. Thanks for articulating that.
Jon Steingard: “He’s saying it’s okay to ask questions about your faith, as long as you continue believing”
Jon nailed it. I’ve always said that Christians will always tell you that it’s okay to question your faith.
As LONG as you don’t ask the WRONG questions.
“Skeptics are welcome” as long as they’re the kind of skeptic that’s satisfied by pat answers and gotcha questions. So not “skeptics” at all
If we as non-omnipotent beings can’t understand why God allows evil (“God works in mysterious ways” - ugh), then what makes us qualified to say that God is good?
I love this type of content. Keep on keeping on Paulogia!
For me, a hour talking to Tim Barnett would probably be one of the longest hours of my life. He equivocates, waffles, and condesends to an infuriating degree.
I watch Logicked because I enjoy his breakdowns and takedowns of people espousing supernatural beliefs of all kinds. He often concentrates on religion, though he sometimes looks at other unsubstantiated supernatural claims. I'm saying this to explain that it was on his channel that I saw an online TEDtalk-style sermon he gave that was about how, because we have Hell, the "problem of evil" doesn't really exist.
Though Logicked dissected Barnett's presentation differently than it might have been done on Paulogia's channel, the talk was eye-opening when it came to Barnett's duplicitous methods. He took the idea of the problem of evil and promptly began to talk about how Hell was really a positive thing because it meant that the guilty would be punished and justice would be achieved. We could be assured that the Evil in the world would be handled by God punishing evildoers, we so we didn't need to worry about it. With this argument, Barnett completely misrepresented the problem of evil, and dismissed the abject horror of eternal punishment for finite crimes.
I'm not 100% sure whether or not he really even knew that he was defining these 2 concepts wrong. But either way, it shows how he doesn't care how moronic he sounds or how callous he seems in regard to suffering.
I've seen other videos Barnett has done where he come off in the same way and this makes me not want to trust that he is as naive as he sounds.
_He took the idea of the problem of evil and promptly began to talk about how Hell was really a positive thing because it meant that the guilty would be punished and justice would be achieved._
That's just insane, isn't it? What would even be the _point?_ How in the world can people think like that?
PS. Yeah, Logicked is great, isn't he? A little different style than Paulogia, maybe. (Sort of in the middle, with the Scathing Atheist bunch on the extreme far end. Heh, heh.) But I support them all.
I lost my birth right, was disinhereted, and am now ostracized.
My family assumes because I'm an agnostic atheist that I'm also a witch (evil Disney version) and that my kid is bisexual as a result.
Great video, guys!! I just wanted to note how refreshing it is to hear the openness you both share about where you've been, where you are, and the things you even sometimes agree with christians about and the questions those things raise within your own journey. A telling observation is how rarely I see that being reciprocated. Generally, in apologetics, or in churches, there is no acknowledgement that there may be legitimacy from people who disagree, or that anything they say has any real merit. There's generally just ridicule, mockery, or attempted subversion of those on a different trek. Not always, but most of the time this is my experience. Great job guys!!
Needed this! Thank you guys!
What an amazing duo! I feel that each point was well talked out between you. I have so much respect for Jon and his perspective. Good work Paul!
When the guy says "it's easy to answer the arguments," I think what he really means is that it's easy for him to dismiss the arguments for himself. I doubt he has much success answering arguments in a way that convinces anyone who doesn't already agree with him.
For years now I have been saying that his ilk could literally shit their pants on a stage and they'd still be perceived as the world's most brilliant supergeniuses.
The standards and definitions theists use are.... I don't think there's a word strong enough for 'Completely and utterly wrong in every conceivable sense' in English. Where's German? Get those fantastic compound words of yours over here.
But yeah. To a theist, "answer" is the same thing as shitting yourself. It doesn't have to work or be useful, as long as it makes noise and leaves a trace.
"When the guy says "it's easy to answer the arguments,"
When I come across a religious person on UA-cam making that claim, they _never_ answer the arguments, despite repeated requests from me to do so.
Also, there are a few questions I ask that the vast majority or religious people just run away from and a couple that they never answer.
A few "answer" others, but their "answers" only highlight how fucked up their brains are, for example, when asked:
How could Paradise be Heaven for you if someone you loved went to an eternal Hell?
I get a few people claiming that god basically brainwashes you, so you forget your loved ones.
And here's a question that no one has even tried to answer yet:
What about people whose corpus callosum is severed and one half of the brain believes in god and the other half doesn’t? Is their “soul” torn in two, and half goes to Heaven, half goes to Hell?
I remember one Christian once said that to me and pointed out to 'look it up' i responded "Sure and the rebuttals to them are easy aswell, look them up".
He tried to say that was an argument ad authority and i told him that yes, both responses (his and mine) were not really good answers.
I did debating in junior school and what marks a good debater is the ability to convince someone that doesn't already agree with you.
@@reubenmanzo2054 You're not wrong about that, but have you ever heard that old adage about when all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail?
It's easy to think dealing with religious people is a debate between equally interested parties, that we're both taking each other seriously. Hammer, nail.
Religious people are ideologically motivated to disagree with reality no matter what. Hammer? Meet anvil. Many of these assholes will gladly tell you that they'll say 2+2=5 if it means they get their way; they know it's bullshit but they don't care about the truth, because they think they have the Truth(tm) on their side.
What I mean to say is that to them it isn't a debate, it's an attempt to convert more people under the pretense of discourse.
Even the religious types who seem "progressive", the ones who think YECs and flat Earther cultists are idiots, they still lie for their Truth(tm) by altering their religion to suit their needs.
Debate works between reasonable people, never with cultists.
42:17 This is what started me towards my deconstruction - why did we need some eternal reward or eternal punishment to force us to be good people? Isn't it worth more to be good because it's the right thing to do? No god required.
The bit about the apparent futility of helping people in the moment reminds me the story of the man who's walking on the beach and sees a little boy throwing beached starfish into the ocean. The man says, "you can't help all of them" and the boy says, "I helped that one."
P.S. The idea of faith as an intellectual gutter guard is a sadly apt analogy.
Great conversation, and so many fun little clips edited into the background!
They think it's "points on the board" when a Muslim deconverts (even to atheism) but it's the end of the world when a high profile Christian deconverts.
Jon not only has been asked those questions ,my guess is someone of those people also let him know his answers ,
Always great to hear from Jon!
I really appreciate addressing the emotional turmoil involved in deconstruction. It hurts to lose not just our community but the entity we had previously looked to to bring us comfort and peace. It was so painful to realize that it isn't real. Then, to lose the community that was my only other safety net because I was no longer a believer, that hurt.
This was such amazing content
I hope things are better now.
@@Bill_Garthright we're headed in the right direction, but still pretty fresh right now. Content like Paul's and Prophet of Zod have been really helpful
@@bangsandbullets
Good!
PS. Viced Rhino and Logicked are pretty good, too. The latter isn't just about religion, and he gets pretty funny sometimes. Just in case you're looking for even _more_ ways to waste time on UA-cam.
I'll probably never not be reminded of Shannon's reaction when the "you just want to sin" garbage comes up. It's such a meaningless throwaway trope for them that these people just don't seem to understand the gravity of what they're saying. I wonder how much the demographics will have to shift away from their particular belief system before they figure it out that dismissing the struggles and feelings of others, based solely on what a book says, isn't a winning strategy.
I was questioning my faith by 15 and suppressed that until I was in my mid 20s and had been almost an ordained minister (southern baptist, y’all). Deconverted in my early 30s. It’s been about 7 years since I walked away from Christianity and theism
I loved Hawk Nelson growing up. It's nice to see and hear Jon and I have gone through similar journeys and hear his words about the subject
That was awesome, thanks! 😊
When I was teaching my children about basic morality, one phrase I found myself using was “can you look in the mirror and believe that you’ve done the right thing”. Over time I came to realise that the same applied to my own belief in God “Can I be intellectually honest and believe this collection of stories and still look in the self same mirror?”
Why not
@@samuelcalderwood1379 I’m using the mirror as a metaphor for intellectual honesty. Looking one’s self in the eye, so to speak, shows that you are trying to live without hiding behind shams and falsehoods.
For example, to consider myself a Christian I would have to accept the existence of an all powerful, invisible friend who exhibits dangerously narcissistic and violent tendencies, whilst demanding to be worshiped and adored.
Not only do I see no evidence for his/her existence, but it seems to be a pretty unhealthy relationship irregardless of said actual existence. I hope that helps to explain my point 👍
@@mikeday5776 if you owned a dog 🐕 would you not expect it to obey you especially with the rules to keep it safe from cars and such dangers , likewise God loves us as our creator and sets boundaries for our own good. The people you speak of were wicked towards God even scarficing children,God took back the lives he gave them then abused
@@samuelcalderwood1379 but that comes down to the fundamental difference, I was raised as a Christian and taught that belief without proof was good and doubt was sinful, thus like a dog or a slave, independent thought was discouraged.
I choose to face this world as an independent adult. Doubt is good, saying “I don’t know but I’d like to find out” is a mature response to the questions of the world. I don’t need or want to be the pet of an imaginary owner to feel safe, other than a book with hundreds of contradictions and, to be frank, murders, written by people who were not witness but second handed (at best) parties. There is as much evidence for God as any of the ten thousand other gods and goddesses that mankind has invented over the millennia. And, truthfully, if you or I had been born in ninth century Scandinavia we might be debating the existence of Odin with exactly the same ideas. I hope this helps to clarify my thinking.
@@mikeday5776 Mike l will let you into a secret ,l would say every Christian has doubts when trouble comes,that is human nature
My deconversion was weird. But I also feel like a bunch of deconverted Christians came through it like me.
Like, you're a kid, you get dragged to this place where people just shout and praise the lord and you hear the music and everyone seems so into it.
You might get pulled off into Sunday school and hang out with the other kids and before you're even expected to critically think about literally anything you're fed the 10 commandments, and the little child happy go lucky version of Bible stories.
But then one day while you're still young you just think about it one time and it's just... dude this doesn't really make any sense.
Evolving from an ape makes no sense and has in fact just been disproven
@@samuelcalderwood1379 please elaborate. There's almost too much to talk about. In just the fact you responded like that
@ Alucard Ican
Well he is right about one thing. Evolving from an ape makes no sense from an evolutionary point of view. Paleontologists who specialize in human evolution would classify Homo sapiens *as* apes. The theory doesn’t purport that species evolve into or out of a clade.
@@alucardican9785 just read an article earlier, mostly over my simple head but l always knew it was a ridiculous theory anyway,for example if all creatures evolved ,where are any in between skeletons ? And to evolve from something the something had to come from somewhere,a starting point.My starting point is the bible
@@samuelcalderwood1379 look. I'm not gonna argue with you. If you wanna believe the Bible go ahead.
I'm not gonna argue because nothing you just said gives me anything to go off of. And your "simple head" can't understand anyways so why would I waste the time to explain evolution to you?
"If we take in our hand any volume; of divinity or school metaphysics, for instance; let us ask, Does it contain any abstract reasoning concerning quantity or number? No. Does it contain any experimental reasoning concerning matter of fact and existence? No. Commit it then to the flames: for it can contain nothing but sophistry and illusion." - David Hume
Thank you for letting your pain be known, guys.
It’s reassuring to hear thy my current experience in losing so much family, community, and foundational understanding is not unique.