I dont understand shit, but i just love these japanese race track videos especially when compare different cars. It seems like they really enjoy driving their hondas just like i enjoy mine. Still, subtitles would be sweet
I understand enough japanese to halfway understand it's funny how the racers were shocked themselves to see the S2000 lose to the new Civic. The Civic is said to be almost as equally fast as the late 90's 280HP japanese sports cars and that says a lot
its amazing how quickly everyone forgets about driving technique when two different drive trains are put against each other. it doesnt matter how much power you put into you car if your a better driver you will win, power only matters if you and your opponent's skills are the same.
@apexdna Funny thing is the NSX was made and designed inspired by F1. It was to celebrate their success of F1 having direct input from the F1 legend Senna. NSX embodies Honda's F1 effort. These technologies were implemented into the NSX before it was trickled down to the FFs of Honda.
@apexdna I have a b16a in my civic. I'm not saying that but titanium rods and fiber coated bores were unheard of when the NSX came out. The C30A is a racing engine too. It was used for racing by Honda.
The civic would pass in the UK That type R is stock, from factory just the way it is in the video, just because it's been built to a higher standard by Honda doesn't mean it's not "stock"
civic Si has nothing to do with the FD2,different purposes behind them for different customers. S2K is really really great sports car while the FD2 is a track focus car.
@c312eal NSXs actually DO have more cargo space than most super cars, thanks to the usable rear trunk, in addition to the more common front compartment for the spare.
The laptimes don't care if you dive a FF or RWD. If you want to be fast, choose your weapon. Trying to argue which is better is pointless. The beauty is that all these mediums exist and that's how a culture exists! :)
@apexdna You can see the FF disadvantage too once its tuned. FF over 300hp is really not good on track while the FR s2k is still amazing. With over 300hp for a FF on acceleration you're just going to get tire spin because a the weight of the car goes to the back and the front becomes super light. The stress on the front tires will be overwhelming, braking turning and accelerating with the front tires. That's gonna kill your tires faster than a FR.
@c312eal Yet "top 3" technologies borrowed from F1, the (1) double-wishbone suspension and (2) PGM-FI was found as early as 1985 in Accords, with (3) VTEC in the 1989 Civic SiR, a whole year before the release of NSX in 1990...
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Very true. FFs also have less power loss thru drivetrain. And by rally, I mean Group A, and later, the WRC - the pinnacle of automotive racing. Even Formula 1 can be traced back to the rally racing, which lent a lot of it's technologies to Honda road cars (namely FFs) in the late '80s/early-'90s...the VTEC, the double-wishbone suspension, and programmed fuel injection all came from Honda's efforts in Formula 1 during those years as an engine supplier.
@c312eal First of all, K20A is an FF engine. And second, since Honda has excelled at FFs more than any other car manufacturer, makes it the best Honda engine ever made...
@apexdna The Type R FD2 chassis is different from the USDM Si civic. Different chassis code, different chassis improvements in the FD2, its more rigid, lighter and has a more aggressive suspension set up than even the SI's. FRs have more potential the FFs. Just look at the LFA. You don't see companies making 500hp super car FF because it would be unpractical and unusable
@c312eal They had too, because it's main target was the Ferrari 328/348 and the Formula 1 cars that were/are MRs. Honda has excelled at FFs more than anyone else did (overall), so therefore the best FFs are Honda and vice versa (again, overall). What's so hard to understand? Nobody's arguing what's a better (overall) drivetrain layout is...
@c312eal That IS exactly what I've said. What I'm talking about is the double-wishbone equipped Civic-based chassis of the '90s. The Integra, and the Civic on which it is based on, and a few other models like the CR-X and del Sol. A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable, from engine to suspension. DC2 is based on the EG6 and DC5 on EP3, they aren't all that different. Know your roots.
@timmyXx101xX Apples to oranges, my friend. An S2000 was created to celebrate the Honda's 50th anniversary, and as a tribute to the first Honda automobile, the S500. But you're right, both drivetrain layouts have their own advantages and disadvantages, whether it's power or handling. Type Rs came from SiRs which came from Si's. The F1-derived VTEC first appeared in 1989 on a Civic-based chassis.
@apexdna I'm not looking at FFs and FR from perspective but from physics. 4WD's do understeer. The R32s and R34s are known for understeer because of their overall heavy weight and heavy front load.
@c312eal Not necessarily, as there were some close shots in the past. Cars like the Nissan Primera, which was very successful in touring car championships, equipped with FR-based SR20 and double-wishbone suspension. Toyota's FF AE-chassis with F1-derived 4AGE, one of the few motors with 5-valves-per-cylinder (found only on cars like the Ferrari F355). FF Alfa Romes, which were just as successful in touring car racing, with interesting suspension setups. Peugeot 200-series and others...
I wonder why Honda never made a S2000 Type R... that would've been sweet! I mean the Type S/CR isn't really made in the same way as a Type R car. I think that the result of something like that would've been interesting to see
Cars Can be Setup to match drivers needs and feels. The difference is in the tire usage. In general, an FF car will then to work the front tires more than the other layout. It's an inherited problem that rear it head out when things get tight and twisty like mountain runs, rally etc. Its not that FF cars cant compete we the others (Hey mini c did win rallies in the past). But the burden on the driver is more since they has to always keep themselves check and not work the front end too much.
@apexdna JGTC was one that let FF race along side with MRs and FRs. It let your FF accord race beside other drivetrains and guess what? since it was a FF and they knew it was disadvantage they decided to let it be 50kg lighter than the FRs and MRs. I don't need you to tell me what I deserve to drive or not? In north america the eg6 doesn't always have a b16a.
@apexdna Because the K20 is a new engine that the F20C. It has new technology ex iVTEC vs VTEC. And stock wise the F20C still makes more power and revs higher. If equipped with the iVTEC kit, the F20C will be even better.
@hurtingguy15 i aggree with you. Besides for differences between FWD and RWD to be seen the track should have more tight turns or the cars should be more powerful
@c312eal In it's entirety? Perhaps you're right...BUT a lot of the technology borrowed from Honda's involvement in Formula 1 has been around before NSX, found in the earlier FF Hondas.
@apexdna yes they both have advantages and disadvantages. But a tuned fr can put more power down better than any tuned ff. All high end circuit cars are rwd. But ff's are usually lighter than fr's so in competitions where the max power isnt too high like in some rallies and hill climbs ff's can out do fr's.
@apexdna FR isn't always for drifting. Yes the silvias are drift machines because ppl choose them to be. The LFA is a FR but its made for some SERIOUS speed. Hell load of downforce and power. Laps the ring faster than the GT-R. If you think I'm a FR drifting fanboy, you got me wrong. I like engines behind my seat :P Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos. MR and RRs.
Btw, Stock s2000 final drive gear ratio is matched for european's freeways thus hurting its accel when compared to the shorter and more agrassive CTR. ;)
@c312eal Rally IS the pinnacle of automotive racing. Not only is it the oldest form of motorsport dating back to the late 1800s, but also the most demanding. It gave gave birth to Formula 1 in 1950s, and has seen a fair share of winning FF machines since then. And NO, not in Formula 1, before this stems into yet another misunderstanding.
@c312eal Just because the engine is making more power from the factory does NOT make it a BETTER engine OVERALL...there's so many other factors to consider, beginning with aftermarket support and all the way to the actual usage of the motor, both by the manufacturer and the public.
@apexdna Why do you say that? the S2K chassis is amazing, its rigid and light despite being a convertible. Usually convertibles are known to been less rigid but thanks to s2k's x frame its strong. It's light too, the S2k has been known to have cornering abilities to beat the NSX in a few corners. The civic or integras were never compared to the NSX. If anything s2k chassis > civics or integras. Just by that fact its FR it has more potential and even stock more ability than a FF.
@hurtingguy15 yea but eh on the contrary to that u could do sum mild work to the civic's ie; K24 bottom end with the K20 head and it pumps out 300hp+ just with that single mod, stock air intake box and everything. the F22's are limited to simpler mods such as simply installing pistons valves bla bla bla all the normal shit u can do to a motor and wutever drop a tubo or supercharger but ur still right about the tuned civics advan. but i gotta say im dissap. in the S2K Type S's performance there.
@c312eal I'm not gonna argue that FR is overall a better drivetrain layout, but again it depends solely on the application. There are only a handful of people that have mastered the FF layout, and to majority it's still a mystery...that textbook definition you gave me is nothing more than a theory from an FR perspective.
@c312eal Yet the "Type R" moniker came from the "R" in the SiR models i.e. Civic. Know your roots. That same CTR lapped Tsukuba faster than both, the 3.2 version of the NSX and the original, by 1.22 and 2.73 seconds respectively. And again, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs? The best FFs happen to be Hondas, and therefore the best Hondas are FFs, drivetrain layout-wise...those are the same FFs that take on the big dogs, so give credit where credit is due.
To all FWD haters:don't blame yourself.FF takes skill to be driven fast.It is not your fault that you can't drive...but no need to blame the car as well.
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Again, not necessarily. Most factory FRs tend to understeer like pigs anyways. Drivetrain layout has very little to do with the actual handling of the car. Both drivetrain layouts have their advantages/disadvantages...some of the best rally and touring cars, are FFs. Honda won both 2010 & 2011 BTCC in their Euro Civic (which isn't that great to begin with).
@apexdna Under 300hp FF has a chance. But no matter what FR's advantages are greater. FF adds addition wear on the front tires. Think about it you're using 2 tires to do all your work load, accelerating, braking, and turning. That's some stress and wear on the tires. FF also has a acceleration disadvantage compared to FR. Every time you corner exit its like a restart and acceleration starts all over again. FR has an advantage at that time too.
Proven how? Please elaborate. Suspension design, suspension setup (spring rates, damping adjustment, sway bar thickness, etc.), chassis rigidity, wheelbase length, track width, alignment, tire pressure, tire width, tire compound and sidewall-thickness are only some of the factors that affect handling. Given everything is the same on both cars, except for the drivetrain layout, they will handle the same until, wait for it, throttle is being used.
@c312eal In Canada, they actually did sell an EM1 SiRs, which were basically re-badged Si's w/OBD-2 B16As, while EX were sold as Si...but only in Canada. del Sol VTEC (SiR in Japan) did had a B16A, but not EH3s (USDM Civic Si) as they came with D16Z6s...isn't that the reason you swapped a B16A into your EH-chassis Civic hatchback in the first place?
@c312eal No place? Anything is possible. Have you heard of Bisimoto's 1004 hp 2012 Si? Or Javier Loarca's 1,125 whp EH hatchback? And for the millionth time, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs that you have to go out of your way to repeat yourself? Anyways, once this FR dust settles, people will start experimenting with the different drivetrain layouts again like they did in the '90s...back then we had FF drag racing, FF drifting, FF touring cars. Interesting times.
@apexdna Well if you put it that way, to know your roots. Honda started off with the FR S500 So if the S500 didn't have an engine either will your civics. NSX technology was ahead of its time, what made the engine in the NSX special wasn't just VTEC. Variable valve timing wasn't invent by Honda. The C30A had titanium rods and a coated bore to make the engine super durable and high revving.
@c312eal You seem very confused. You can't use an FF like you would an FR in certain situations (and vice versa). Yet at the same time, there are a lot of ways you can use a similar method between the two drivetrain layouts to get a similar (end) result. Take a wheelie bar used in drag racing for example - there are traction bars made for FFs. They do the same job of planting the front (they even look the same), whether it's for stability (in FRs), OR traction (in FFs).
@apexdna The best racing drivers in the world prefer FR or anything RWD over a FF. My definition is not just a theory, it's the laws of physics that you cannot escape. You accelerate the weight of your car transfer to the rear, the front lose traction and therefore you lose acceleration. It's also fact that MRs accelerate better than FRs due to more weight in the back.
@apexdna 1st thing, FRs are not just for drifting. This year in Le Mans the champion in the GT class was a FR Corvette. They didn't drift that 24h race to win and no FF was in that race because everyone knows MR and FR are better layouts for racing. Once again I'm not hating on FFs. LOL I drive a EG6 with a engine from the del sol LOL I love it but I know FRs perform better. FFs are here because they are cheaper to manufacture
I think the Mugen RR you're referring to is the advanced concept model. The Mugen RR featured in this race weighs a bit less than 2800 and has 240 ps. Regardless, it was a slaughter, the s2000 had the 2.2 liter engine.
@monster2000k Even then, K-series still has better aftermarket support which says a lot about the engine, especially considering that the best Hondas are FFs imho and swapping a F20C into FF chassis isn't feasible, am I correct? Anyways, it's like comparing a D16A6 to a Z6, sure Z6 is better out the box, but A6 has that much bigger potential, so in the end A6 wins, and that's with the head comparison alone...but I do have to admit I AM new to the newer stuff tho, no pun intended.
@c312eal We're talking about cars, drivetrain-layout-wise, not power equipment. Although Honda''s lawn mower engines do happen to be one of the most widely used "power equipment" engines, but let's not change the subject here, shall we? How many times do I have to repeat myself, before it starts to sink in - nobody's comparing Honda's RWDs to FFs, they're different drivetrain layouts. Apples to oranges, my little friend.
lol yea a different technique not a challenging one it comes naturally if you know any thing washing off speed with under steer is very easy to do and you know exactly how much throttle you can give fwd through the corner because the all that happens is a little loss of grip in the front tires then you let off a little. it is much harder to judge the amount of breaking and throttle to give a rwd because the front will slide if you dont break enough back will slide out if you give it too much gas
@apexdna And just to tell you an engine's potential could ONLY be used to the max with the proper layout. The engine's job is to provide power to the wheels and the wheels to the road for maximum speed. The K20A potential isn't used to the max by a FF but by FR or MR cars. For example, the Helise. Lotus elise toyo engine swapped for the Honda K20A. With this a Elise is able to keep up to with even porsches on tracks. But it doesn't prove that the civic ff chassis are the best honda chassis.
@iknowcarsbetterthanu To some extent...but that strictly depends on how you look at it tho, because if you believe that FR is better than FF - then yes, S2000 is better than any FF Honda has ever made. BUT if you were to ask what is a better Honda? Then by all means, the Civic-based chassis (including Integras) takes the prize...
@c312eal "...in JGTC the FF cars had to be given advantages over the RWDs in order to keep them competitive..." What does have to do with the fact that the best Hondas are FFs?
@apexdna LOL the 4AGE is not F1 derived. The 4AGE was made WAY before Toyota joined F1. Prior to 2002, Toyota had no F1 experience therefore the old 4AGE was not related to F1. Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break.
@c312eal As of 2000s, it is. It's very trendy to hate on FFs. Most Americans don't drift, but they DO like their power, that's for sure. The current mainstream drift scene (both in the US and Japan) is joke. All they do is powerslide. Every drift technique is used in conjunction with "power over". But it's not what it used to be. It was like you've said, the art of getting sideways, whether it's an FF, FR, or AWD. While rally encompasses drifting, it is NOT drifting per say.
@apexdna But in all these categories, RWD Honda excel more than FFs. the CTR is a everyday car that Honda decided to make more sporty and put type r into. In essence its still a city everyday car design. Honda gets serious when it starts making RWD machines. Those are the REAL and sports machines. Not a civic I do groceries and put my baby seat in the back in
@c312eal That's because F20C is an RWD-based engine, am I correct? Just because something is better out-of-the-box does not make it better overall... Engine for engine: K20A > F20C BUT, if it's in an S2000, why put a K20A, if you have an F20C already?
@c312eal That's because the rear wheels in a rear-wheel-drive HELP the car to steer i.e. rotate. "4WD is known for understeering... The FR-based R32-34 GT-Rs beg to disagree. You've been watching too many EVO/STi's, which are based on terrible FFs (compared to Honda's). And again, you're looking at FFs from an FR perspective, FFs can use power where FRs can't and vice versa...although I must admit that FRs can use more power (%) as power (hp) and speed levels increase.
@apexdna You day. You said I'm using extremes. when you yourself said FR loses stability. Damn that corvette in that won in Le Mans this year was pretty damn stable to me. It ran 24H and was still going like a rocket.
@apexdna that is for sure but unfortunately, best to me is strictly down to performance capability on a race track. So in that retrospect most fr's are better than the civic. But thats just my opinion.
a lot of people don't understand that best motoring is also there to advertise and promote cars. In this case they're promoting the new type r that came out during this video. They had other videos afterwards showing the s2000 beating the fd2r.
@apexdna Of course drivetrain has A LOT to do with actual car handling? are you nuts? MRs are known to oversteer and are scary to drive in rain and snow conditions. 4WD is known for understeering but being able to have amazing traction while cornering. FF is known for its characteristics for understeer no matter how well you tune it these characteristic will show at the car's limit.
@apexdna I don't know if you watched Senna do his lap but it was pretty casual. I don't hate FF's. I myself am a Honda fan and I love all the Type Rs. Since you mentioned KT, did you know that KT set the Tsukuba circuit record with an NSX? And that his favourite car is the FR 86? He also set the tough record in his home Usui touge with an NSX. Do you see any FF cars in here? Like I said okay under 300hp FF has a chance but over 300hp FF just doesn't have that potential
@c312eal Drivetrain layout IS the category at hand. Celebrities like Rowan Atkinson use NSXs as grocery getters, what's you point? It's what people can afford. I'm gonna go as far as to say that it IS the grocery getter of the super car world. How's that for an extreme? You like? Right back at ya.
@c312eal What about double-wishbone suspension, VTEC, and PGM-FI? All of that came years before NSX...if it weren't for the Civic, and the earlier efforts in F1, there wouldn't be an NSX in the first place. And if Honda didn't start making cars with the original S-roadster, the S500, there wouldn't be an S2000 as well...know your roots.
@c312eal With that thought process, an '86 Si with D15A is better than the latest CTR, since you can trace the history of the current K20A down to the early EW/D15 engines...you admit that the best MR is the McLaren F1, and NOT the NSX, then why not accept that best Hondas (drivetrain-layout-wise) are FFs...I don't think there's a bigger category to which to judge upon.
@c312eal What is exactly did I say? I have nothing against the S2000 chassis, in fact I think it embodies Honda's spirit better than any other Honda...but I also tend to think that the best Hondas are FFs, since that's what Honda excelled at the most, and by far better than any other car manufacturer. All I'm saying is that car for car, there are better FR roadsters out there...and MRs.
@apexdna That means Honda's best FF's can't compete with FRs or MRs while NSXs were handicapped in order to give other cars a chance? get it? NSX > any Honda or Honda FF?
@c312eal Sales are just one of the many factors when choosing the best car in a given drivetrain layout. Toyota's best cars happen to be 4x4s, even tho I must admit they DID make some decent FFs during the '90s. "...CTRs...would get smashed by the NSX..." And pretty much any super car will devour the NSX alive, so what's your point? "NSX...It'll drive better than any Honda FF. It'll go faster than any FF." Apples to oranges, my friend. Apple to oranges...
Maybe you don't see it, but you just proved my point. FF cars handle quite different from FR, MR, or RR cars. Hence why we don't have front wheel drive F1 cars. And I don't even know what initial D is, can you elaborate please?
the way that this Mugen RR revs is so fast!!!! incredible,...
I dont understand shit, but i just love these japanese race track videos especially when compare different cars. It seems like they really enjoy driving their hondas just like i enjoy mine. Still, subtitles would be sweet
They couldn't find a tuned S2000 for this test, eh? :raises eyebrow: ;)
I understand enough japanese to halfway understand it's funny how the racers were shocked themselves to see the S2000 lose to the new Civic. The Civic is said to be almost as equally fast as the late 90's 280HP japanese sports cars and that says a lot
its amazing how quickly everyone forgets about driving technique when two different drive trains are put against each other. it doesnt matter how much power you put into you car if your a better driver you will win, power only matters if you and your opponent's skills are the same.
These guys are great! listen to them having so much fun in these great cars! :D
みんなめちゃくちゃ楽しそうに走ってる
スバルも好きだったけどホンダも好きだ
@apexdna Funny thing is the NSX was made and designed inspired by F1. It was to celebrate their success of F1 having direct input from the F1 legend Senna. NSX embodies Honda's F1 effort. These technologies were implemented into the NSX before it was trickled down to the FFs of Honda.
@apexdna I have a b16a in my civic. I'm not saying that but titanium rods and fiber coated bores were unheard of when the NSX came out. The C30A is a racing engine too. It was used for racing by Honda.
If you think a regular Civic SI here is going to do that you're mistaken. Those S2000s are stock.
The last civic type R is stock too and it still beats the s2k....
Thats why Civics Type Rs don't pass smog tests in the US or Europe cause its stock. oh... I missed that part.
The civic would pass in the UK
That type R is stock, from factory just the way it is in the video, just because it's been built to a higher standard by Honda doesn't mean it's not "stock"
Steve Langdon lol 1st and Second place were taken by best motorings 2 best drivers.. Coincidence I think not lol
civic Si has nothing to do with the FD2,different purposes behind them for different customers. S2K is really really great sports car while the FD2 is a track focus car.
@c312eal NSXs actually DO have more cargo space than most super cars, thanks to the usable rear trunk, in addition to the more common front compartment for the spare.
The laptimes don't care if you dive a FF or RWD. If you want to be fast, choose your weapon. Trying to argue which is better is pointless. The beauty is that all these mediums exist and that's how a culture exists! :)
@ClubbySuperCharged It is, they were comparing new Civics (at the time) vs. still-in-production S2000s, NSXs were no longer made (at the time).
@apexdna You can see the FF disadvantage too once its tuned. FF over 300hp is really not good on track while the FR s2k is still amazing. With over 300hp for a FF on acceleration you're just going to get tire spin because a the weight of the car goes to the back and the front becomes super light. The stress on the front tires will be overwhelming, braking turning and accelerating with the front tires. That's gonna kill your tires faster than a FR.
@c312eal Yet "top 3" technologies borrowed from F1, the (1) double-wishbone suspension and (2) PGM-FI was found as early as 1985 in Accords, with (3) VTEC in the 1989 Civic SiR, a whole year before the release of NSX in 1990...
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Very true. FFs also have less power loss thru drivetrain. And by rally, I mean Group A, and later, the WRC - the pinnacle of automotive racing. Even Formula 1 can be traced back to the rally racing, which lent a lot of it's technologies to Honda road cars (namely FFs) in the late '80s/early-'90s...the VTEC, the double-wishbone suspension, and programmed fuel injection all came from Honda's efforts in Formula 1 during those years as an engine supplier.
@c312eal First of all, K20A is an FF engine. And second, since Honda has excelled at FFs more than any other car manufacturer, makes it the best Honda engine ever made...
@apexdna The Type R FD2 chassis is different from the USDM Si civic. Different chassis code, different chassis improvements in the FD2, its more rigid, lighter and has a more aggressive suspension set up than even the SI's. FRs have more potential the FFs. Just look at the LFA. You don't see companies making 500hp super car FF because it would be unpractical and unusable
FD2は速すぎるもんなー
S2000とでは相手にならんなー笑
でもチューニングの素材としたらS2最高やねんなー
Man I wish my 8th gen SI were that fast
Tune it bro, with bolt ons. Add polyurethane front lca's and a 22mm-24mm rear sway bar. You'd compete with the fd2r.
@c312eal They had too, because it's main target was the Ferrari 328/348 and the Formula 1 cars that were/are MRs. Honda has excelled at FFs more than anyone else did (overall), so therefore the best FFs are Honda and vice versa (again, overall). What's so hard to understand? Nobody's arguing what's a better (overall) drivetrain layout is...
@c312eal That IS exactly what I've said. What I'm talking about is the double-wishbone equipped Civic-based chassis of the '90s. The Integra, and the Civic on which it is based on, and a few other models like the CR-X and del Sol. A lot of mechanical parts are interchangeable, from engine to suspension. DC2 is based on the EG6 and DC5 on EP3, they aren't all that different.
Know your roots.
0:00 ~ 1:28 Days Like These - Justify
You know K.Tsuchiya's in trouble whenever his voice goes falsetto, lol
@timmyXx101xX Apples to oranges, my friend. An S2000 was created to celebrate the Honda's 50th anniversary, and as a tribute to the first Honda automobile, the S500. But you're right, both drivetrain layouts have their own advantages and disadvantages, whether it's power or handling. Type Rs came from SiRs which came from Si's. The F1-derived VTEC first appeared in 1989 on a Civic-based chassis.
@apexdna I'm not looking at FFs and FR from perspective but from physics. 4WD's do understeer. The R32s and R34s are known for understeer because of their overall heavy weight and heavy front load.
one of the best 240p videos ,better then most of the supercar videos from owners with hand cameras in 240..
@c312eal Not necessarily, as there were some close shots in the past. Cars like the Nissan Primera, which was very successful in touring car championships, equipped with FR-based SR20 and double-wishbone suspension. Toyota's FF AE-chassis with F1-derived 4AGE, one of the few motors with 5-valves-per-cylinder (found only on cars like the Ferrari F355). FF Alfa Romes, which were just as successful in touring car racing, with interesting suspension setups. Peugeot 200-series and others...
I wonder why Honda never made a S2000 Type R... that would've been sweet! I mean the Type S/CR isn't really made in the same way as a Type R car. I think that the result of something like that would've been interesting to see
Cars Can be Setup to match drivers needs and feels. The difference is in the tire usage. In general, an FF car will then to work the front tires more than the other layout. It's an inherited problem that rear it head out when things get tight and twisty like mountain runs, rally etc. Its not that FF cars cant compete we the others (Hey mini c did win rallies in the past). But the burden on the driver is more since they has to always keep themselves check and not work the front end too much.
@apexdna JGTC was one that let FF race along side with MRs and FRs. It let your FF accord race beside other drivetrains and guess what? since it was a FF and they knew it was disadvantage they decided to let it be 50kg lighter than the FRs and MRs. I don't need you to tell me what I deserve to drive or not? In north america the eg6 doesn't always have a b16a.
これS2のタイヤってセカンドグレードのRE050よね？シビックと同じハイグリップのRE11だったらどうなったんだろ？
加速でおもっきり負けてるように見えるのでどのみち負けてるのかなと思います
@apexdna Because the K20 is a new engine that the F20C. It has new technology ex iVTEC vs VTEC. And stock wise the F20C still makes more power and revs higher. If equipped with the iVTEC kit, the F20C will be even better.
@hurtingguy15 i aggree with you. Besides for differences between FWD and RWD to be seen the track should have more tight turns or the cars should be more powerful
@c312eal In it's entirety? Perhaps you're right...BUT a lot of the technology borrowed from Honda's involvement in Formula 1 has been around before NSX, found in the earlier FF Hondas.
@apexdna yes they both have advantages and disadvantages. But a tuned fr can put more power down better than any tuned ff. All high end circuit cars are rwd. But ff's are usually lighter than fr's so in competitions where the max power isnt too high like in some rallies and hill climbs ff's can out do fr's.
@apexdna FR isn't always for drifting. Yes the silvias are drift machines because ppl choose them to be. The LFA is a FR but its made for some SERIOUS speed. Hell load of downforce and power. Laps the ring faster than the GT-R. If you think I'm a FR drifting fanboy, you got me wrong. I like engines behind my seat :P Porsches, Ferraris, Lambos. MR and RRs.
Btw, Stock s2000 final drive gear ratio is matched for european's freeways thus hurting its accel when compared to the shorter and more agrassive CTR. ;)
@c312eal Rally IS the pinnacle of automotive racing. Not only is it the oldest form of motorsport dating back to the late 1800s, but also the most demanding. It gave gave birth to Formula 1 in 1950s, and has seen a fair share of winning FF machines since then. And NO, not in Formula 1, before this stems into yet another misunderstanding.
@c312eal Just because the engine is making more power from the factory does NOT make it a BETTER engine OVERALL...there's so many other factors to consider, beginning with aftermarket support and all the way to the actual usage of the motor, both by the manufacturer and the public.
@apexdna Why do you say that? the S2K chassis is amazing, its rigid and light despite being a convertible. Usually convertibles are known to been less rigid but thanks to s2k's x frame its strong. It's light too, the S2k has been known to have cornering abilities to beat the NSX in a few corners. The civic or integras were never compared to the NSX. If anything s2k chassis > civics or integras. Just by that fact its FR it has more potential and even stock more ability than a FF.
@hurtingguy15 yea but eh on the contrary to that u could do sum mild work to the civic's ie; K24 bottom end with the K20 head and it pumps out 300hp+ just with that single mod, stock air intake box and everything. the F22's are limited to simpler mods such as simply installing pistons valves bla bla bla all the normal shit u can do to a motor and wutever drop a tubo or supercharger but ur still right about the tuned civics advan. but i gotta say im dissap. in the S2K Type S's performance there.
@c312eal I'm not gonna argue that FR is overall a better drivetrain layout, but again it depends solely on the application. There are only a handful of people that have mastered the FF layout, and to majority it's still a mystery...that textbook definition you gave me is nothing more than a theory from an FR perspective.
@c312eal Yet the "Type R" moniker came from the "R" in the SiR models i.e. Civic. Know your roots. That same CTR lapped Tsukuba faster than both, the 3.2 version of the NSX and the original, by 1.22 and 2.73 seconds respectively. And again, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs? The best FFs happen to be Hondas, and therefore the best Hondas are FFs, drivetrain layout-wise...those are the same FFs that take on the big dogs, so give credit where credit is due.
タイヤ同じにしたらどうなんだろ…
@apexdna Every car loses traction. It depends on the driver. Infact the FF is more likely to lose traction because of the power going to the front.
To all FWD haters:don't blame yourself.FF takes skill to be driven fast.It is not your fault that you can't drive...but no need to blame the car as well.
@iknowcarsbetterthanu Again, not necessarily. Most factory FRs tend to understeer like pigs anyways. Drivetrain layout has very little to do with the actual handling of the car. Both drivetrain layouts have their advantages/disadvantages...some of the best rally and touring cars, are FFs. Honda won both 2010 & 2011 BTCC in their Euro Civic (which isn't that great to begin with).
@apexdna Under 300hp FF has a chance. But no matter what FR's advantages are greater. FF adds addition wear on the front tires. Think about it you're using 2 tires to do all your work load, accelerating, braking, and turning. That's some stress and wear on the tires. FF also has a acceleration disadvantage compared to FR. Every time you corner exit its like a restart and acceleration starts all over again. FR has an advantage at that time too.
Proven how? Please elaborate. Suspension design, suspension setup (spring rates, damping adjustment, sway bar thickness, etc.), chassis rigidity, wheelbase length, track width, alignment, tire pressure, tire width, tire compound and sidewall-thickness are only some of the factors that affect handling. Given everything is the same on both cars, except for the drivetrain layout, they will handle the same until, wait for it, throttle is being used.
@apexdna It can but after a lap or 2 you'll see why the FF is handicapped to the FR.
@c312eal In Canada, they actually did sell an EM1 SiRs, which were basically re-badged Si's w/OBD-2 B16As, while EX were sold as Si...but only in Canada.
del Sol VTEC (SiR in Japan) did had a B16A, but not EH3s (USDM Civic Si) as they came with D16Z6s...isn't that the reason you swapped a B16A into your EH-chassis Civic hatchback in the first place?
@c312eal No place? Anything is possible. Have you heard of Bisimoto's 1004 hp 2012 Si? Or Javier Loarca's 1,125 whp EH hatchback? And for the millionth time, where have I said that FFs are any better than FRs that you have to go out of your way to repeat yourself? Anyways, once this FR dust settles, people will start experimenting with the different drivetrain layouts again like they did in the '90s...back then we had FF drag racing, FF drifting, FF touring cars.
Interesting times.
@apexdna Well if you put it that way, to know your roots. Honda started off with the FR S500 So if the S500 didn't have an engine either will your civics. NSX technology was ahead of its time, what made the engine in the NSX special wasn't just VTEC. Variable valve timing wasn't invent by Honda. The C30A had titanium rods and a coated bore to make the engine super durable and high revving.
@rakim808 No, it is NOT. Unless you're comparing to the Australian Type R.
I love how people will fight over anything.
@c312eal You seem very confused. You can't use an FF like you would an FR in certain situations (and vice versa). Yet at the same time, there are a lot of ways you can use a similar method between the two drivetrain layouts to get a similar (end) result. Take a wheelie bar used in drag racing for example - there are traction bars made for FFs. They do the same job of planting the front (they even look the same), whether it's for stability (in FRs), OR traction (in FFs).
@apexdna The best racing drivers in the world prefer FR or anything RWD over a FF. My definition is not just a theory, it's the laws of physics that you cannot escape. You accelerate the weight of your car transfer to the rear, the front lose traction and therefore you lose acceleration. It's also fact that MRs accelerate better than FRs due to more weight in the back.
@apexdna 1st thing, FRs are not just for drifting. This year in Le Mans the champion in the GT class was a FR Corvette. They didn't drift that 24h race to win and no FF was in that race because everyone knows MR and FR are better layouts for racing. Once again I'm not hating on FFs. LOL I drive a EG6 with a engine from the del sol LOL I love it but I know FRs perform better. FFs are here because they are cheaper to manufacture
I think the Mugen RR you're referring to is the advanced concept model. The Mugen RR featured in this race weighs a bit less than 2800 and has 240 ps. Regardless, it was a slaughter, the s2000 had the 2.2 liter engine.
it that example- yea. but on the track, you dont want the power wheels to steer
@monster2000k Even then, K-series still has better aftermarket support which says a lot about the engine, especially considering that the best Hondas are FFs imho and swapping a F20C into FF chassis isn't feasible, am I correct? Anyways, it's like comparing a D16A6 to a Z6, sure Z6 is better out the box, but A6 has that much bigger potential, so in the end A6 wins, and that's with the head comparison alone...but I do have to admit I AM new to the newer stuff tho, no pun intended.
@monster2000k People actually swap K20s into S2000s and not the other way around.
also I wonder how it would have turned out if they had their tops up.
@c312eal We're talking about cars, drivetrain-layout-wise, not power equipment. Although Honda''s lawn mower engines do happen to be one of the most widely used "power equipment" engines, but let's not change the subject here, shall we? How many times do I have to repeat myself, before it starts to sink in - nobody's comparing Honda's RWDs to FFs, they're different drivetrain layouts. Apples to oranges, my little friend.
lol yea a different technique not a challenging one it comes naturally if you know any thing washing off speed with under steer is very easy to do and you know exactly how much throttle you can give fwd through the corner because the all that happens is a little loss of grip in the front tires then you let off a little. it is much harder to judge the amount of breaking and throttle to give a rwd because the front will slide if you dont break enough back will slide out if you give it too much gas
@c312eal So you're saying that the original B16A wasn't as "super durable and high revving" as NSX's C30A?
@apexdna Put your kids in the back seats? Fold back seats down for some extra cargo space?
@gpower88 Yeah, like 10 years ago...
@c312eal NSX is an MR, and a Honda...it's like comparing a GT40 to a Mustang.
@apexdna And just to tell you an engine's potential could ONLY be used to the max with the proper layout. The engine's job is to provide power to the wheels and the wheels to the road for maximum speed. The K20A potential isn't used to the max by a FF but by FR or MR cars. For example, the Helise. Lotus elise toyo engine swapped for the Honda K20A. With this a Elise is able to keep up to with even porsches on tracks. But it doesn't prove that the civic ff chassis are the best honda chassis.
Didn't the Mugen RR during testing beat an official NSX record on a track somewhere?
Yes
The real reason why the S2Ks lost is that their roofs were down . And that caused air streams .
@iknowcarsbetterthanu To some extent...but that strictly depends on how you look at it tho, because if you believe that FR is better than FF - then yes, S2000 is better than any FF Honda has ever made. BUT if you were to ask what is a better Honda? Then by all means, the Civic-based chassis (including Integras) takes the prize...
@c312eal "...in JGTC the FF cars had to be given advantages over the RWDs in order to keep them competitive..."
What does have to do with the fact that the best Hondas are FFs?
@apexdna LOL the 4AGE is not F1 derived. The 4AGE was made WAY before Toyota joined F1. Prior to 2002, Toyota had no F1 experience therefore the old 4AGE was not related to F1. Infact road vehicles engines are nothing like F1 engines. If you drove an F1 engine like a road car, it'd break.
@c312eal As of 2000s, it is. It's very trendy to hate on FFs. Most Americans don't drift, but they DO like their power, that's for sure. The current mainstream drift scene (both in the US and Japan) is joke. All they do is powerslide. Every drift technique is used in conjunction with "power over". But it's not what it used to be. It was like you've said, the art of getting sideways, whether it's an FF, FR, or AWD. While rally encompasses drifting, it is NOT drifting per say.
@apexdna But in all these categories, RWD Honda excel more than FFs. the CTR is a everyday car that Honda decided to make more sporty and put type r into. In essence its still a city everyday car design. Honda gets serious when it starts making RWD machines. Those are the REAL and sports machines. Not a civic I do groceries and put my baby seat in the back in
@c312eal That's because F20C is an RWD-based engine, am I correct? Just because something is better out-of-the-box does not make it better overall...
Engine for engine: K20A > F20C
BUT, if it's in an S2000, why put a K20A, if you have an F20C already?
@c312eal That's because the rear wheels in a rear-wheel-drive HELP the car to steer i.e. rotate.
"4WD is known for understeering...
The FR-based R32-34 GT-Rs beg to disagree. You've been watching too many EVO/STi's, which are based on terrible FFs (compared to Honda's).
And again, you're looking at FFs from an FR perspective, FFs can use power where FRs can't and vice versa...although I must admit that FRs can use more power (%) as power (hp) and speed levels increase.
@apexdna You day. You said I'm using extremes. when you yourself said FR loses stability. Damn that corvette in that won in Le Mans this year was pretty damn stable to me. It ran 24H and was still going like a rocket.
@apexdna that is for sure but unfortunately, best to me is strictly down to performance capability on a race track. So in that retrospect most fr's are better than the civic. But thats just my opinion.
@ClubbySuperCharged It's MR, not FF or FR...
a lot of people don't understand that best motoring is also there to advertise and promote cars. In this case they're promoting the new type r that came out during this video. They had other videos afterwards showing the s2000 beating the fd2r.
@apexdna Of course drivetrain has A LOT to do with actual car handling? are you nuts? MRs are known to oversteer and are scary to drive in rain and snow conditions. 4WD is known for understeering but being able to have amazing traction while cornering. FF is known for its characteristics for understeer no matter how well you tune it these characteristic will show at the car's limit.
@apexdna I don't know if you watched Senna do his lap but it was pretty casual. I don't hate FF's. I myself am a Honda fan and I love all the Type Rs. Since you mentioned KT, did you know that KT set the Tsukuba circuit record with an NSX? And that his favourite car is the FR 86? He also set the tough record in his home Usui touge with an NSX. Do you see any FF cars in here? Like I said okay under 300hp FF has a chance but over 300hp FF just doesn't have that potential
@c312eal Drivetrain layout IS the category at hand. Celebrities like Rowan Atkinson use NSXs as grocery getters, what's you point? It's what people can afford. I'm gonna go as far as to say that it IS the grocery getter of the super car world. How's that for an extreme? You like? Right back at ya.
@c312eal What about double-wishbone suspension, VTEC, and PGM-FI? All of that came years before NSX...if it weren't for the Civic, and the earlier efforts in F1, there wouldn't be an NSX in the first place. And if Honda didn't start making cars with the original S-roadster, the S500, there wouldn't be an S2000 as well...know your roots.
@c312eal With that thought process, an '86 Si with D15A is better than the latest CTR, since you can trace the history of the current K20A down to the early EW/D15 engines...you admit that the best MR is the McLaren F1, and NOT the NSX, then why not accept that best Hondas (drivetrain-layout-wise) are FFs...I don't think there's a bigger category to which to judge upon.
@steveeeeboi The RSX Type S and the previous Civic Si are not far from it...10hp difference at the most.
@c312eal What is exactly did I say? I have nothing against the S2000 chassis, in fact I think it embodies Honda's spirit better than any other Honda...but I also tend to think that the best Hondas are FFs, since that's what Honda excelled at the most, and by far better than any other car manufacturer. All I'm saying is that car for car, there are better FR roadsters out there...and MRs.
モデューロのNSX カッコよすぎるしこのシビックもカッコいいしデザインはいいね
@c312eal And FFs don't lose traction when properly setup. Happy now?
@apexdna That means Honda's best FF's can't compete with FRs or MRs while NSXs were handicapped in order to give other cars a chance? get it? NSX > any Honda or Honda FF?
I hope they do more stuff like this on Top Gear Japan, better know as Best Motor TV.
@c312eal JTCC, not JGTC...two different things.
hmmm just noticed that lol everyone else has the cluster on the bottom left and dk has feet
@c312eal Sales are just one of the many factors when choosing the best car in a given drivetrain layout. Toyota's best cars happen to be 4x4s, even tho I must admit they DID make some decent FFs during the '90s.
"...CTRs...would get smashed by the NSX..."
And pretty much any super car will devour the NSX alive, so what's your point?
"NSX...It'll drive better than any Honda FF. It'll go faster than any FF."
Apples to oranges, my friend. Apple to oranges...
Maybe you don't see it, but you just proved my point. FF cars handle quite different from FR, MR, or RR cars. Hence why we don't have front wheel drive F1 cars. And I don't even know what initial D is, can you elaborate please?
I want that double r that thing is a beautiful machine