Remake It! Echo Fighters
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- Опубліковано 17 лис 2023
- This is Remake It! Where we take another look at characters in Smash Bros. whose fighter designs have aged poorly, wandered too far out-of-character, or could otherwise benefit from a revisit, then theorycraft what a reworked and improved version of their moveset, playstyle, and other details might look like!
This time...is different from the usual. Instead of overhauling one single character, we're looking at a concept that was underutilized in Ultimate. Echo fighters were set up to be a way of including even more characters who might not have had a chance otherwise--essentially the clone characters from past entries but with a more positive connotation. But in practice, so many of them have been little more than glorified model swaps, with stats and movesets barely different from their source characters...if not identical!
But what if we could do something about that? Let's focus on three specific echo fighters (Daisy, Dark Pit, and Dark Samus), giving them thoughtful changes that help them stand out better and act as true variations of the movesets they borrow from! If that sounds complicated, it'll make sense as you watch.
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Additional Sources:
Kid Icarus Uprising - All Bow Weapons (Monane): • Kid Icarus Uprising - ...
Kid Icarus Uprising - All Orbitar Weapons (Monane): • Kid Icarus Uprising - ...
Kid Icarus Uprising - Chapter 6 (Chuggaaconroy): • Kid Icarus: Uprising -... 2:40-2:57
Kid Icarus Uprising - Pandora Boss Fight & Dark Pit’s Creation (BossBattleChannel): • Kid Icarus: Uprising B...
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes - Dark Samus First Battle (Boss Fight Database): • Metroid Prime 2: Dark ...
Metroid Prime 2: Echoes - Dark Samus Second Battle (Boss Fight Database): • Metroid Prime 2: Dark ...
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption - All Bosses (Boss Fight Database): • Metroid Prime 3 HD: Al...
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - August 2018 Smash Direct (via Gamespot Trailers): • Super Smash Bros. Ulti...
Super Smash Bros. Ultimate - E3 2018 Segment (Nintendo of America): • Super Smash Bros. Ulti... - Ігри
As a replacement for the float ability for Daisy, i would give her a 3rd jump as a reference to her double jump from super mario run
That's what I was thinking
Personally I wouldn't do that though, and here's why:
• Unlocking Daisy in _Super Mario Run_ is a pain in the ass and far too time-consuming.
• Double-jumping is a universal ability in the _Super Smash Bros._ series. It may be a Daisy thing in _Super Mario Run,_ but it's 100% a generic thing in _Smash._
• All of the characters in _Ultimate_ who have more than one midair jump either inflate themselves (Kirby, Jigglypuff, King Dedede) or use wings (Meta Knight, Pit/Dark Pit, Charizard, Ridley, Banjo & Kazooie and Winged Form!Sephiroth). Daisy on the other hand doesn't do either of those things when she double jumps in _Super Mario Run._
@Zakawer2 her dress inflates or more accurately poofs up, but it can work as an inflate type animation, and I know double jump is a thing for everyone in smash, but its not in Mario, so to transfer the ability over it makes sense to give her 3 jumps, and as far as the unlocking of her... while indeed a pain, it's also kinda irrelevant... like yes the game as a whole is irrelevant, but especially the fact of the grinding to unlock her
Thank you! The triple jump would be a great idea which also fits more with her athletic ness.
Same.
I hope the developers can remake Wario because after playing Wario Land and the different interpretations of the character Wario in Rivals of Aether by fans Wario deserves a complete rework
I mean yeah he needs more Wario Land moves and references. Like a lot more. Still he’s fine right now
@@sahaprocks7751 I'd say he's decent.
He's not terribly portrayed, he's still the weird, goofy, and gross powerhouse we all know and love, but you are right that the lack of abilities from Wario Land does hurt. I know that he was based off of the WarioWare version (and that is the active Wario series atm, so it should still be represented), but adding more stuff from his treasure-hunting adventures would really help.
Also just make his overalls the default skin. That's _the_ Wario design, I'm absolutely baffled that wasn't the default outfit already.
Agreed; I want a moveset that better celebrates all of wario’s history while also feeling more like wario.
@@jacobtidwell8869 I like that his default outfit is the biker outfit actually. The overalls design is way more iconic but the biker design makes Wario more distinct from Mario.
Yeah the rest is true. They also need to show more of Wario’s tough side with all his muscle. Smash only really represents the personality of him from Warioware. Greedy and disgusting rather than a greedy guy but also a very tough guy and is also a bit goofy
There’s CSharp’s moveset tweaks to Wario’s moveset
As someone who enjoys playing Peach in Smash, you can bet I was pleased to see Daisy join the roster only to become later dismayed when it turns out she has zero gameplay differences. I won't forget and forgive how there was a balance patch that removed the lone gameplay difference Daisy has from Peach. (If you know, you know)
I do agree that removing the float from Daisy's kit while buffing her mobility is a good call from you. You can also change up the jab where Daisy throws punches instead of slaps.
I dont know. Please educate me!!
@@jordy9606Daisy's turnips had different knockback growth from Peach's until patch 3.0.0, the update that added Joker.
@@justinnzamora5366 Man, that's so dumb. Other echo fighters have way more extreme differences..
You could even give Daisy a Triple Jump in place of float like she used to have in Mario Run, the spin jump badge in wonder sort of functions like a triple jump since there isn’t an actual triple jump badge.
To add onto that, it'd be cool if she could occasionally pull out a Fire Flower or Lip's Stick with her Down B like Peach does with Mr. Saturns and Bob-ombs. It makes more sense for her character since she's associated with flora
i would like to point out a few different things about Dark Pit…
while he is more aggressive… (“Pittoo just isn’t happy unless he’s fighting someone”) Pittoo is actually smarter than Pit, like easily figuring out that it takes more than one Soul to create an Underworld Monster, and figuring out what Pandora’s mirrors do before Palutena can tell him. him going in full-reckless rushdown doesn’t seem like a perfect fit.
His signature weapon is his signature staff, which is essentially a sniper rifle. so, i’m not sure if giving his arrows harsh falloff damage is right.
While he did eventually lose his unlimited power of flight, he’s still likely a stronger flier than Pit, who could never fly at all without Palutena’s help. Maybe a stronger Power of Flight could show that.
He actually uses the Lightning Chariot more than Pit, and on top of that, he REALLY likes ramming into people. that being with the Lighting Chariot, or a flying side kick. Give him the Chariot, maybe that and a combination of his staff if you aren’t gonna put it in his moveset proper.
In Super Mario Run, Daisy was a secret unlockable character who had a midair jump as her unique gimmick, it'd be pretty neat to reference that by giving her a third midair jump, it's not the most interesting thing to add to her, but it'd fit her decently enough
I like the idea of peach getting disgusting horizontal combos while Daisy excels at ladder combos.
One thing I wish they did with Echo fighters is giving them the custom special moves from Smash 4. For instance, Daisy could've had the Flying Peach Bomber for her side special (harder hitting but harder to hit), and Dark Samus could've had the Dense Charge Shot (it's slower speed makes it a more present threat).
Yeah! Just that little change, resource intensive its not, was staring at them in the face!
Also, the point of Dark Samus is to be an omnipresent threat that is looming and is out of nowhere. That could be played into a bit more even if Dark Samus has Samus’s arsenal because the Phazon copied Samus.
I agree, Smash 4 custom specials being given to Echo Fighters would've nice. However, instead of Flying Peach Bomber, I think it would be more fitting if Daisy got Flower Bomber (has faster startup and inflicts whoever it hits with the damaging flower status effect, but has more endlag if the attack doesn't hit anyone)
Peach actually has a Flower Bomber that inflicts the flower effect as one of her custom specials, which thematically would’ve fit Daisy to a tee.
One disagreement I have is that I’d prefer Dark Pit’s weapons of choice be closer to the ones he uses in Uprising. While the problem is that the one chapter where he really mixes up his arsenal (as in, uses more than the Silver Bow) doesn’t include the use of an Arm or Orbitar, the Gemini Orbitar is an unlockable weapon there, so I’d actually change Dark Pit’s Guardian Orbitars to that. Since the creepy masks they summon are actual projectiles and not motionless shields, I’d change it so Dark Pit‘s choice of weapons are more pressure-focused than the heroic angel’s, but not as aggressive as the Boom Orbitars. They’re easier to break by having weaker health recovery, are shorter than the shields, and cannot reflect projectiles. In return, instead of only pushing opponents back on contact, they have a weak damage effect on nearby enemies and float slowly in opposite directions on release. At lower health, the masks will move faster and deal more damage. This, combined with the armor on the Electroshock Arm, moves Dark Pit into more of an anti-zoner role, making it easier to approach those who prefer to fight at long range.
Making him a good counter to Pit?
Making his fighting style a natural counter to Pit’s is a super clever concept!
@@PiiiiiiiiitI KEEP ON FINDING YOU IN COMMENT SECTIONS AND GET JUMPSCARED BY YOUR PFP
Regarding Daisy's Final Smash, it doesn't have to be pulled from the game directly. Since Wonder Flowers change the effects based on where it is, the Wonder Effect can just be anything but themed around Daisy. Just like how Bowser basically turned Prince Florian's Castle to be themed after him.
So for my own take of the Wonder Flower, a flurry of giant hard hitting daisies rain across the stage, and as a callback to her old Final Smash, she can collect specific colored daisies from the onslaught to heal herself. Honestly, it can be anything because the Wonder Flower makes anything weird.
dark samus should have been given her assist trophy moves from 4
For Dark Pit, I'd give him the Lightning Chariot as his Final Smash since both it and him essentially belong to Viridi's Forces of Nature faction; Pit's Final Smash, the Three Sacred Treasures, should've been left unchanged. I believe Dark Samus should've got moves of when she was an assist.
Lastly, I nominate Zelda for the next video!!!
Pit’s Final Smash changes every game because Uprising gave him so many different stuff to use. Honestly wouldn’t be surprised if the next game changed it again to the Great Sacred Treasure or Cherubot.
@@unbind_all Preferably, the Great Sacred Treasures.
My immediate thought when you mentioned a flower being her counter was that instead of exploding, the flower pops the opponent up like an Up Throw
Giving them old moves reminds me of a concept I really want to see in Smash one day.
"Legacy Fighters"
Basically you take a character and rework their whole moveset to match what kind of new material they got now.
But for the people that miss the old moveset, we can take that old moveset and slap it on another character.
For instance, DK desperately needs a new moveset, so give him a new moveset and then give his old one to Chunky Kong or Funky Kong.
Ganondorf gets a whole new moveset, and we can give his old one to Black Shadow from F-Zero.
Sonic gets a moveset change, and his old one can be given to Classic Sonic or Mighty the Armadillo.
We get a "new character" and also get to keep the old moveset people might miss, everyone wins.
If Zero Suit Samus ever gets cut maybe Sami from Advance Wars can carry on her moveset, yeah Metroid and AW are different series but look at how Ganondorf has been since Melee and I very much agree with Black Shadow coming in from F-Zero.
Funnily enough, you could use this concept to justify having 3 mostly unique "suited" Samus fighters. Samus herself gets updated to better match her faster and more aggressive appearance in Fusion, Zero Mission, and Dread (using the Dread suit as her default to look more distinct); Dark Samus gets de-cloned to take after its boss fights and how Samus plays in the slower-paced Prime series; and Samus's old moveset is given to the SA-X, an X parasite copy of Samus's power suit from Super Metroid and thus befitting of the moveset designed when Samus's floaty nature in Super was her primary appearance.
@@dysr That would be hilarious next the current 2 Pikachus, 3 Links and 4 Marths we have lmao
Justo había pensado en eso, sobretodo con Black Shadow.
Ya que Ganondorf necesita si o si un nuevo conjunto de movimientos... y no me gustaría ver un 2do Ganondorf, (cof cof tenemos 3 Link)
igual por ejemplo Peach podría tener un nuevo Moveset basado en su nuevo juego.
y Daisy conservar el anterior de Peach.
I would love for Daisy to be a more rush-down version of Peach like you suggested, its perfect for her character!
For Dark Pit, I really don't think his arrows should get weaker the farther they travel... Even though that's accurate to the Silver Bow in the game, its more fitting for Dark Pit to be a sniper of sorts. That's what the Dark Pit staff is used for after all, and its literally named after him. Having the arrows be just as strong at a distance also makes him more of a threat and plays into his stronger close-range combat because it forces the opponent to approach him (otherwise they have to deal with the projectile spam).
I like how they finally admitted Echo fighters were clones, but it’s really odd how some of them apparently aren’t considered echo fighters.
Yeah, you'd think by that logic they'd mark Isabelle and Dr. Mario as echoes.
@@zwataketaIsabelle has a different moveset from villager, they are just visually similar. But yea Dr Mario should totally be an echo
Doc i understand not being an echo, cus his different attirbutes and stats make him a whole different feeling character from mario, but at the same time, he fits the exact definition of one. It's also werid how Ken's classified as an echo when he's in the same boat as Doc.
fun fact: the ultimate echo fighters have the number of clones just like in melee six clone characters in melee and six clone characters in ultimate
@@kermitthefrog996 It's not different enough for them to feel distinct, though. The movesets having technically small differences doesn't matter if players can't feel the differences. The differences between Villager and Isabelle are a similar nature to Pyra and Mythra. The difference is, Pyra and Mythra are actually the same character: they are two stances of the same overall kit, which makes perfect sense. There is no justification for having similar cases throughout the game broken into two different characters like that.
Daisy got most of what I expect, like taking some of Peach’s old moves and ditching Toad. I’d probably throw in the Vine Grapple as a tether grab, since giving her more plant-based abilities would be fitting. Nice ideas for the reflavored Neutral and Up Specials.
9:08 I hate how true that is. Anyways, with how many weapon types Uprising has, giving Dark Pit a different set of Orbitars shouldn’t be that hard. Maybe give him some Smash attacks with other weapon types? Maybe that’s leaning too much towards rework territory…
I think basing Dark Samus’s Smash Attacks on the moves they had as an Assist Trophy would be a neat call back. The spread shot and Phazon spikes could fit perfectly as Side and Down Smashed, while you could rework the Phozon sphere attack into one large, overhead sphere of energy, kinda like Mewtwo’s Up-Smash. I think if Dark Samus is the one to hold onto Samus’s old moveset, they should still have some revamps to moves to make them feel more like themselves.
Unsure if you’d do a video on the rest of the Echoes, since of that batch, Ken is different enough from Ryu already while Chrom and Lucian’s main difference separates them from their main fighter enough to work. That means it would mainly be Richter getting the revamp, though I’d probably save that for a Belmont Remake It! if you end up doing that.
Yeah he did not bring up how Damus used to be as an Assist Trophy which is understandable since he’s trying to stay within limitations of echoes.
I really miss the phazon wave/spikes most of all. If used as it works in the games, it would fit organically into the moveset and significantly change up the playstyle even if it was otherwise left completely the same.
That's because it is a reflector. In her games, she uses it offensively occasionally when you get close (as seen in 13:44, it looked different in MP2 but it's the same move), but is actually guaranteed to trigger the move when you try to hit her with a missile while she isn't doing something else. It does damage around her and deflects all Projectiles, but the animation has some Endlag and with good timing you can sneak another Missile in after the Phazon tendrils recede. In smash, this would work almost exactly like Falcos reflector, but in two directions, and with a bit more endlag. Since she is a prominent zoner, giving DS a reflector and get-off-me tool drastically changes how she can approach fights compared to Samus without being too broken.
It would also make sense for it to replace her down B, as she never uses Morph ball bombs in the games. She can use Morph ball, but exclusively uses it for Boost Ball.
@@brandonwilliams6119 I think adding those as extra moves parts are perfectly fine.
I need to make sure you've actually played Uprising, because canonically Dark Pit is much LESS aggressive and MORE tactical than Pit. Pit's not a braindead berserker, but he is a headstrong righteous warrior who Dark Pit finds embarrassing and careless. Original Pit is going to fly up close and pound you into the dirt, while Dark Pit tries to hang back if he has the option and take your head off with a clean shot (mission 6 is all about him trying to do exactly this)
"Dark Pit is much less aggro than Pit in Uprising!"
Dark Pit in Uprising: **backhands Pandora and punches Pit in the stomach, grabbed an Ogre Club to beat the crap out of Pit in their fight, used the Lightning Chariot to brute force the portal to the Chaos Vortex open, and uses the chariot AGAIN to burst through Hades’ chest open and save Pit**
@@GlitchanBlack Yeah, all short and quick strikes, compared to Pit's relentless overwhelming force
@@TARINunit9And just a reminder that the thing I mentioned with the Ogre Club was also in Chapter 6.
@@GlitchanBlack Yes, Chapter 6, the mission where you turn Dark Pit into a cornered rattlesnake, and even then he would rather run away from you than actually attack
Worth noting: giving Dark Pit’s attacks a “reverse tipper” effect is fitting to his original game, too. Most Bows in Kid Icarus Uprising do more damage with their shots the further they travel. But the Silver Bow has the uncommon effect of reversing that, doing the most damage at closer ranges.
Isn't that his Final Smash?
@@Nosretep his final smash is the dark pit staff. It’s a sniping staff that does more damage the further away the target is.
@@enlongjones2394 It does the opposite in Uprising.
"Lot more interesting than just a copy of Peach's Final Smash with slightly different visuals, right?"
No? Like, not at all? All you've done is make Daisy's Final Smash identical to the 40 other fighters that have cinematic finishers. The entire point of the Wonder Flower is to change the gameplay itself, it doesn't make you sit and watch. A Wonder Flower Final Smash that turns everyone else into Wubbas or something while Daisy becomes much faster and stronger would be much better and befitting of her character.
I think what would be the most interesting would be if it had multiple potential outcomes, which would really fit the "anything could happen" aspect of the Wonder Flowers. You could have the bulls rush the stage, invincibility stars rain down that only Daisy and her teammates could use, one that makes everyone else float around like they're in space, one that creates spacial rifts that hurt opponents that touch them, hell just have them all happen at once, so much could be done with the idea if they were willing to commit.
@@gubsy3730 Now THAT is an idea I can get behind. Final Smashes can be (and used to be) so much more unique, embracing the spatial aspects of being in a platform fighter. The Bulrushes rushing the stage itself is a fantastic way to incorporate them without using a cutscene
Personally, I'd give Daisy the same overhaul you did, but this time change her Down Special to Superball (in reference to her debut game, Super Mario Land), replace her midair float with a third jump with a rainbow effect (in reference to her appearance in Super Mario Run), replace her victory theme with an arrangement of the Course Clear jingle from Super Mario Land (again, a nod to her debut), make it so that her baseball bat swings horizontally while her tennis racket swings diagonally upward and her golf club swings diagonally downward, buff her Daisy Bomber to match Melee's Peach Bomber and add an explosion effect instead of a magic effect at the cost of startup and end lag, and give her a different entrance where she arrives by Sky Pop (once again, a nod to her debut) while still keeping her MK8 voice clip from the original once she gets out of it.
Maybe for Daisy’s neutral special a Poplin would pop up instead of a Toad. And whoever lands a hit on the Poplin causes them to open up their flower head and releases a gas that causes the opponent to confuse their sense of direction (similar to that mushroom item that rearranges controls). Because that can potentially be broken though, it can make it so that happens at a small chance with it just dealing damage regularly like Toad’s spores, though not as much knockback. It would be a nice chance for Daisy to have a special “surprise“ critical factor like Peach picking up a Mr. Saturn or bob-omb and Luigi’s misfire.
For Daisy’s down special, she could probably have some sort of special critical attack but if used at the wrong time, leaves her vulnerable to attacks (similar to Jigglypuff’s rest) It could probably be a huge slap that references her slap attack to Bowser in Mario Party 3. It’d also paralell wonderfully with Luigi’s kick taunt.
Also, there absolutely must be an alt costume that brings back Daisy’s classic design concept but modernized. Same with Peach. These are things that absolutely should be considsred.
Surprised you didn’t give Daisy her triple jump from Super Mario Run to replace the float.
Never forget that Daisy owns four kingdoms to Peach’s one.
She’s a damn Empress and would hold more power than Peach.
I think it’s damn funny.
yet we never see her do those things since shes always in the mushroom kingdom
@@jakeystarsuper Mario Land 1 was the first Mario game to not have Myiamoto involved in general. As a result, the game doesn't take place in the Mushroom Kingdom. However R and D 1 runout of ideas for Mario Land and moved on to Wario Land. So Daisy doesn't have much to work with.
I'm just glad someone's talking about Kid Icarus: Uprising
I'm so disappointed that they didn't give her her Crystal Smash! move, i mean it has Smash in the name come on Nintendo
Another fantastic rework video. Even though the changes you made would still classify these characters as quick and easy Echoes, these tweaks would really help them feel and play differently from the fighters they're based off of. I wish we had gotten these actual kits in the game, it's a shame that some of the Echoes feel _too_ similar to their base counterpart.
While it was fun seeing you change these characters while keeping them Echoes, I think it'd also be cool if you went and made new rework videos for these guys later on and outright decloned them. I know there's tons of Dark Samus fans out there that would really like it if she had a fully-unique moveset that used her actual abilities from her boss fights instead of just using Samus's outdated kit.
I think that Lucina and Chrom should definitely be clones of each other, but neither should be marth/roy clones. Awakening really implies a lot more of an acrobatic quality in their kit which feels a little looked over with Marth's moveset. Aether helps Chrom a bit I guess but I think they could be totally original
Though I understand why it ended up being the way it is, the FE echo pairs definitely feel like they should be swapped. Roy in FE6 is intentionally similar to Marth in many ways, whereas it's specifically noted that Lucina fights like Chrom.
There’s a good reason for them to fight the way they do in Ultimate. Lucina copying Marth makes sense since she spent the first half of Awakening pretending to be Marth, while Chrom makes sense as an echo of Roy since his aggressive fighting style is more in line with what Sakurai originally thought Roy was like
@@claudevonrunningman While she does pretend to be Marth, her fighting style is never likened to his. She's still said to fight like Chrom even when she's acting as Marth. Lore-wise, the way Chrom fights should also be the way Lucina fights.
As for Chrom, the moveset he has in Ultimate is indeed fitting for him. Roy is the one who it's unfitting for.
@@claudevonrunningman If Sakurai thinks Roy and Chrom should be similar, then with all due respect to the Goat that he is, he is just wrong in that regard. They aren't anything alike in the Fire Emblem franchise, so there isn't a reason why they should be alike at all in Smash Ultimate. And as someone else pointed out, Lucina doesn't fight like Marth at all. Sure, she pretends to be Marth, but at the end of the day, they're completely different fighters, so them being near identical (with only tippers being different) is just not right.
Besides, here's the thing: even if it were the case that all 4 of them are canonically very similar fighters in Fire Emblem, all this really means is that at least 2 of those 4 should simply never have been in Ultimate. Having 4 near-identical fighters in a fighting platformer game whose selling point is the diversity of franchises and playstyles being represented, it is not good game design at all. Sure, one character being a clone of another is maybe justifiable, but 4 near-identical fighter crosses the line. And the saddest part about it is that Fire Emblem does actually have some great diversity in fighting styles, so if they really wanted to have 8 Fire Emblem representatives, then they could have done it while having most of the representatives feel unique. But that is not what they did. If the only knowledge a player has about Fire Emblem is from Smash Bros., then they'd just come to the conclusion that a diversity of fighting styles in Fire Emblem doesn't exist, and they'd end up being completely wrong.
While she wasn't covered in the video, I do have two ideas on how Lucina could be adjusted for a future Smash game. The first would be to give Lucina the Soaring Slash / Aether recovery that Chrom / Ike have (especially since the Fire Emblem cast will likely be cut heavily in a future Smash game, so she can keep that going should Roy/Chrom or Ike be cut). The second would be an entirely new move replacing the Down-B counter, where Lucina would do a back flip and fire an arrow (either using Parthia to reference Engage, or Thögn to reference Heroes) down at where she was just standing, partially referencing the Sniper critical hit animation from Engage. Replacing the counter would help alleviate one of the criticisms levied against the Fire Emblem cast in Smash, and would help give more mobility to Lucina since Soaring Slash covers less horizontal distance than Dolphin Slash (though it would need to be B-Reversed so that you don't go further off-stage).
Of all the Fire Emblem characters in Smash, only Robin and Byleth don’t have counters. I think some more uniqueness is in order. At least give the counters unique properties…
Adding new weapons to Lucina's arsenal, even if it's just in place of some specials, seems like the way to go.
She's established across multiple games to be very proficient with bows and lances. So in addition to your backflip shot suggestion for her down special, perhaps she could use a spear sweep or throw for a side special.
Just about everything you offered up for Dark Samus (even the Phazon gimmick) was what I had thought up on my own. The only addition I have that you didn’t say was to tweak all of Dark Samus’ smash attacks to utilize Phazon tendrils like she did in her Assist Trophy days
I LOVE the idea of using Mario bros wonder as a basis for Daisy’s revisit
Here's a thought, what new echo fighters could we get and how would be be different? I suggest Protoman with some of Megaman's alt specials from 4 and a shield link Link's. Maybe Medusa using some of Palutena's alt specials?
Kat & Ana from Warioware as echoes of Ice Climbers
They used to be Assist Trophies and were cut in Ultimate and I think they should’ve gotten promoted like Mac, Damus and Isabelle. Yeah some Ashley fans would be upset but Warioware actually lost representation when you think about it.
@@brandonwilliams6119 I can see Ashley being playable while Kat and Ana get restored. I think they aren't enough like the Ice Climbers to warrant echoing anyway.
@@ArcherBro Fair Enough
@@brandonwilliams6119Kat y Ana serían interesantes, pero siento que otros personajes merecen más entrar a Smash, y no hablo precisamente de Ashley.
Mona o incluso Syrup de Wario Land serían interesantes.
This might be controversial and unpopular to say, but I think developers should not continue introducing echo fighters in the next game, and they should instead trying to prioritize as much uniqueness with the fighters and diversity in playstyle as possible. I understand the justifications for the previous 4 games in the franchise having clones and echo fighters, but there is no valid excuse for future games in this series to continue with this trend. I think Super Smash Bros. Ultimate needs to be the last of it. As I understand it, it is extremely unlikely (if not impossible) that the next game will bring back every single character from SSBU while still having newcomers and DLC fighters. In fact, it is already very unlikely Masahiro Sakurai will be the lead developer of the next game, so the next game is probably going to be a reset of sorts, a reboot with a smaller roster, going in a completely new direction. It is very unlikely that Sora from Kingdom Hearts will be a returning fighter, for example. Rather than merely expanding the scope of the character roster numerically, they should focus on improving significantly the quality of the already existing roster they are going to use and breath new air into it, make it feel fresh and innovative. So, if they do bring newcomers (and they likely will, in the form of DLC), then these newcomers need to be genuine innovations, and not more of what we already have. Personally, I would much prefer for the developers to just rework the movesets of already existing characters to reflect how much their home franchises have grown and developed, and for them to have their unique identities stand out more and be more distinct than ever before, and for them to faithfully represent their games, than to see new characters with old movesets acting as nothing more than skins with minor technical variations that only matter to the hardcore competitive community.
I really like the idea behind the adjustment for the Final Smash for Dark Pit. (for those that don’t know, you can pretty reliable confirm back throw into a Final Smash to cheese stocks at the ledge.)
For who?
@@starbeam7679 oh, my bad lol. Edited the comment
Maybe I misunderstood Dark Samus’ Final Smash, but what I pictured when you mentioned it was having Dark Samus split in two at a reasonable distance, face each other and a little up, and then give two powerful diagonal blasts. I would imagine that since they are split, they size of their beam would be halved. However, I do like the idea of poison damage afterward. (I say a diagonal angle because Dark Samus does not want to obliterate their copy, so they shoot over their heads.
Counter on the guard flower... Give her the Piranah plant vine badge that travels farther if hit by ranged attacks or grows larger to nom on either guarded enemies or Melee perfect counters, whichever works better for balance, not a traditional grab but a recovery helper that pulls you towards any surface you hit.
If I were making this Daisy rework, I'd probably take out a few of the Wonder references and put in more references to Super Mario Land and the Mario Sports games. Maybe Daisy's Final Smash could be her Super from Mario Strikers
I'd keep the Propeller Flower though.
Awesome video! Still waiting for that Mio video you promised us!
Making Dark Samus an echo is the equivalent of adding Waluigi, but making him a Luigi clone since he's the bad version of Luigi lol. So, best case is give Samus a new moveset based on her modern appearances, then _also_ give Dark Samus a complete overhaul. Then add SA-X to rep the old moveset
Well said
I hate clones and the people that get excited for them not realizing how disrespectful they actually are
@@lorenzoniccoli99lnGeez, aren’t you being a bit toxic?
@@lorenzoniccoli99ln Sakurai has a hard time representing and balancing characters, if the character has too much potential. It's usually the underpowered characters like Ice Climbers, Game and Watch that he has an easier time doing both.
12:56 The Metroid Prime is a Metroid in name only, and that's because Talon IV Metroids are an invasive species brought there by the Pirates, the Chozo named the Leviathan that crashed into Talon "Metroid" which means "Ultimate Warrior" in Chozo. Metroid Prime is, as stated by Prime 3, what is known as a Leviathan, a lifeform comprised entirely of Phazon that acts as one of many independent brains among the otherwise hive mind status of the Phazon (yes, Phazon is canonically sentient), capable of creating Phazon at it's strongest (as seen in all fights with true form Leviathans and with a fully empowered Dark Samus in Prime 3), as well as manipulation of Phazon and the ability to control minds by infecting others with what I like to call "Phazon Poisoning". Leviathans also can absorb Phazon when weakened in order to regain power as seen with Dark Samus in Prime 2.
Awesome video, dude
I liked these concepts
THANK YOU!!! I CANNOT STAND these Smash Bros Stans who always claim that the concept of Echo Fighters just being characters with the same Moves but different Frame Data & Properties is a good thing for a game that should have diverse characters. Making them stand out from their originals is great.
Beautifully done as always
(2:17) I've not watched this in a while, but thank you for showing the original stats. If you change the stats, it seems obvious to include the original values too. But for a new character I understand not doing it 👍
Awesome video!
i needed this spiritual healing of echoes. well mostly for d-samus, but the other fighter balances were a nice listen too. tho in the end, im in the camp of d-samus being a completely unique fighter cause thats how it operates in the game. it only looks like samus, its moves are very different. heck sakurai knew that too if you just look at the assist trophy in smash 4
Honestly, Dark Samus should just be turned into an entirely different character rather than a clone of Samus. If you look at her assist trophy, they could have taken stuff from that, like the phazon tentacles she erupts from around her (something that could easily be her Down B), the rapid blasts from her arm cannon or the big homing balls she fires upwards/ She also really liked using the boost ball to deadly effect and I feel they could translate that into her moveset into an aimable replacement for her up B.
I’m sorry but after Smash 4’s “custom moves” there was no excuse to leave these clones without GOOD movesets.
I think that Richter is also pretty guilty of being almost a glorified alt. And yet I don’t want him to be downgraded to an alt because we’d lose the unique taunts and victory animations.
And since Roy isn’t portrayed right in Smash in terms of personality, let’s see what can be done to make him true to character yet fresh.
Male and female Byleth have different victory animations from each other as well as a different taunt and idle.
The only thing that would change is that Richter's holy water would lose it's unique effect (Simon's counts as actual fire which detonates the explosives from Links and Steve, while Richter's counts as aura, so his can damage red Pikmin) the Belmonts are entirely identical besides that and the aforementioned aesthetics, so Richter would barely be losing anything at all.
no, actually, simon has been using richter's moves. if you want to see the actual simon, search 'project m simon' in the search bar.
I recognise this guys from the Kirby fighters 2 tier list!!!
If you’re already pulling from Wonder for her up special, why not just use Poplins in place of Toads & have Prince Florian show up for taunts?
06:04 There's a Mod for Ultimate that changes Daisy's Turnips into carrots as a nod to Super Mario Land 2 which I've always kind of liked.
I've also personally always thought that she should lack Peach's float but instead have a third jump akin to Super Mario Run, where she has one more than the other characters.
Now if we could mod a moveset for these 3 echos, I wouldn't be so off.. Maybe Chrome too
The emotional whiplash I felt from the main video, to the sponsorship is intense😂
I have a feeling this version of Dark Samus would be broken in stamina matches.
They need to give Little Mac a better recovery for real tho
The Echo Fighters was a neat idea, but in practice, some of them feel like something a dedicated modder or team of modders could have whipped up themselves. Not to say that modders don't do good work, but for something made by the official team, you'd think there'd be more to it than what amounts to a model swap with different animations.
As far as ideas for EFs you didn't cover in this video, I feel like Richter could have used different subweapons or at least given all of them different properties instead of just the holy water, and Lucina could have greater mobility and speed at the cost of decreased damage compared to Marth and Chrom.
Yes, this is how I feel. The concept was fine for Super Smash Bros. Ultimate, and I understand the justifications given, but the next game in the franchise needs to not continue this trend of recycling movesets and putting them on characters for whom they do not fit at all. If it means having a smaller overall roster, then so be it. Quality over quantity. I would rather every character in the smaller roster feel completely distinct, unique, and a faithful representation of their game, than have a large amount of characters, but 1/4 of them being copies of copies of other characters when it simply does not make sense for them to be this way. I appreciate that Everyone is Here was a revolutionary concept, and I am not going to complain, but the next game needs to breathe new life into these characters.
love the ideas(a slight nitpick is I think that the bulls should already be rushing, then daisy jumps on, and the opponents fail to do so)
Was looking at the gameplay for Kid Icarus and was just like "is that chuggaconroy's gameplay footage" and they are! Such a good creator
CAN WE GET JEANNE AS AN ECHO FIGHTER FOR BAYONETTA?? 😭 The color change is not enough!
I think a noteworthy idea is to change Daisy's Blue Toad assists with a Poplin instead. It could still function like Blue Toad for her throws, if you wanted them to stay the same, but her Neutral Special would could have it throw a seed as its counter hit. The seed could have the flower effect if it hits, which lasts longer the stronger the countered attack would have been.
I even suggested Toadette since I’m opening cutscene of Wonder they were close and friendly with each other. But a Poplin is cool too.
Hmm, been scrolling for a bit, found no comments about dark samus... then i'll make my own. Even with moves already existing, we could make Dark samus a good echo: tilts can basically be the same, but smashes and specials are changed: how? like this.
For Up-b, she get's Incin's. She actually has a move like that in Prime 2. So, just slap it over screw attack and done. For missiles, she actually uses both normal missiles and super missiles in Prime 2... but Super Missiles need a huge buff for both samuses. Still, those can stay. For charge beam she gets... THORON. She has a move like that in prime 2, it'd be weaker (cause no charge) but very long range. Could be like Rob's laser. And as for down-b, i'd put boost ball. A Sonic-like spindash. She uses it in prime 2 as well. Could be either that, or an Echo-counter, kinda like Greninja and Lucario's.
If we opt for the counter as down b, then boost ball would be dash attack. F-smash would be like Gunner's... And that's mostly it. Add float capability (since Cross chop recovery with no alolan whip, and no bombs suck) and add poison effect like Joker's Eiha to phazon attacks. Oh, and make down smash her reflector, a 2 sided barrier that covers her entire heigt and works like the orbitars.
For Samus it seems like the best solution would be to merge Samus and Zero Suit back into Prime Samus, swapping kits with the Final Smash like she used to.
Dark Samus could then be a poison-based echo fighter. The new final smash keeps Dark Samus from needing a zero suit variant the way Power Suit Samus uses it now by having the clones.
Then fans could get their new moveset with the open spot by adding Dread Suit Samus.
"...all it took to turn that around was a new title with a more positive connotation"
YMMV. I still see people complain about echo fighters.
Big fan of the Dark Pit and Dark Samus concepts.
Well, it's not so much that the people complain. It's more so that we appreciate the concept and what they represented in Ultimate and the previous game, many of us don't want the idea to return in future games. It's fine and acceptable for Ultimate, but not the next Smash game.
For daisy a third jump could actually be a thing, as in Mario Run she had a double jump.
I would love it if echoes were "legacy" holders and the original characters get a complete redesign
I feel like daisy's neutral b can be the mario party block. It could work like Mr. Game and watch with each number having a different effect on her opponent. Her down special can be that she places a flower field and whoever touches that flower field they would grow a flower on their head just like when you use lips stick on an opponent. Her up b could be a flower spin kind of like her special shot in mario hoops 3 on 3.
She's not a spin off character, so it'll look out of place
I really love Dark Pit.
I really like all 3 of these move sets! Gosh I gotta stop watching these moveset concept videos because now when I play Smash Bros, I can't stop thinking about them !!
Funny enough, it probably wouldn’t take much effort to upgrade Dark Samus out of Echo status. Although I guess most of that work would instead go towards reworking Samus.
Also, Nintendo considers Super Mario Run to be a mainline 2D Mario game, hence Daisy being in Wonder. So it hasn’t been *THAT* long since her last mainline Mario appearance.
No, I think in an interview for Wonder they said the last mainline title was NSMBU
@@grunkleg.3110 They showed Run alongside the other mainline 2D & 3D Mario games, plus Wonder is supposed to have every playable character in 2D Mario history.
The most perplexing thing about Dark Samus is that they already spent a lot of time and effort giving it entirely new animations, effects, and models for its missiles. It's entirely a weird intentional decision to have it be almost identical to Samus rather than time/budget constraints, since they easily could've given it different stats (e.g. better air mobility but worse ground mobility compared to Samus) or give it entirely different moves alongside some of the different animations. They could've even used custom specials from Sm4sh or moves from its assist trophy.
@@dysr Sakurai has a hard time representing and balancing characters, if the character has too much potential. It's usually the underpowered characters like Ice Climbers, Game and Watch that he has an easier time doing both.
@@orangeslash1667 Oh my Siesta, not you again. *sigh*
It might be interesting if Samus got the Dread style rework, and Dark Samus got this Phazon based rework, and the current version of Samus was preserved as SA-X (with an X Abomination transformation as a Final Smash) since that was also a malevolent entity "wearing a stolen shell of one of Samus's prior suits." I realize these, along with Zero Suit makes it four Samuses, but maybe SA-X is an Echo of Dark Samus, or vice versa?
Its worth noting that "charge shot" in Mega Man is just called the Mega Buster. His buster cannon in games prior to 4 was signified by a P, most likely standing for either primary or plasma.
Megaman X Maverick Hunters refers to it as a Charge Shot when X uses it to kill Vile in his side story mode.
hey, just a thought, like what you suggested with that first dark samus idea, why not make regular pit more reminiscent of the version in brawl, therefore making dark pit more unique by default!
An interesting thing for Daisy would be to replace the float with a triple jump, this would be to reference Daisy's first technical "mainline" playable appearance in Super Mario Run, where Peach had a descending float, and Daisy had a double jump. So since everyone in smash can double jump, grant her a third jump, akin to multiple jump characters like Pit or Banjo kazooie. Also her stats being more lenient to being faster/stronger, where Peach's could be more accurate/balanced would line up well with their sports stats in mario spin offs, where daisy tends to be one of the faster characters. Also I dont think making Daisy less magical would be the right move, as she's been shown to be quite magical with earthy/flower powers, i think she should just have a focus on her type of powers rather than eliminate them
Imagine calling a mobile game "mainline".
@@espurrseyes42 Plenty of franchises have those. The word "mainline" does not mean "console exclusive."
@@angelmendez-rivera351
Doesn't make the mobile games mainline either.
@@espurrseyes42 It isn't up to you to decide whether a particular mobile game is mainline to a game franchise or not, regardless of how angry that makes you. Some mobile games are mainline. Some are not. I don't decide that, *and neither do you.* Okay, bye.
@@angelmendez-rivera351
It's not mainline by virtue of it being almost entirely detached from the original series' continuity/gameplay, and literally detached from it by being part of the mobile market. I didn't decide this. Ninty did.
THIS WHAT I BEEN WAITING FOR❤❤
Its crazy mods like pm and smash remix made dark samus and lucina different from what ultimates echo fighter.
If I may say something, I can't help but wonder if the Superball from Super Mario Land (Daisy's debut game) could have been utilized in Daisy's reworked moveset somewhere.
Other than that, this looks pretty solid as far as I can tell.
Ive seen some versions of Dais that give her Side special a chace to misfire like Luigi.
If they did this to dark pit, I would be extatic, even if it would take a minute to get used to. And that bow nerf(not being able to charge) would be interesting
As someone who loves Daisy, and was happy she got in the game. I feel like it would've been better to either make her unique or not put her in at all. I also think it's weird to remake her but not at all add anything from the actual game she originates from. Like, I get she doesn't have much of a role in Mario Land aside from Damsel in Distress, but would that not make more sense to base her kit on rather than a new game she has little connection to aside from being flower-based? Wouldn't giving her the power-ups or nods to Mario Land just fit better, or is that just me?
Personalmente no me gustó la inclusión de Daisy....
pero en fin, estás en lo cierto, yo le hubiera dado un conjunto de movimientos basado en Mario Land, y ahora con Wonder ese conjunto de movimientos se puede "ampliar" un poco más.
@@carloscd6791 I don't think she specifically "needed" to be included but considering every main Mario character is already there they might as well. And I agree pulling things from Wonder would have added more variety, like using a badge in place of a special ability that characters lost from past games. Like Peach floating or Toad being the fastest
These ideas for the three are pretty interesting, especially for Dark Samus and Princess Daisy. Dark Pit understandably is a clone of Pit and having some differences in their fighting style and different arsenal makes sense. So if I were to rank them I have Princess Daisy as the most unique out of the three in this video, with Dark Samus in the middle, and Dark Pit in last place.
As for the next video, I hope my boy Lucario wins the poll because I'm curious to see what you have in mind for his changes (even though I can't help but secretly think Zelda's gonna come out on top).
That "They'll be left so weak afterwards, that finishing them is just a formality." line is low key cold as heck
One thing I would like to point out about Peach and Daisy; there is ONE moveset difference (very insignificant). Peach's turnips have a higher base knockback stat , but less knockback growth than Daisy's.
This WAS the case, until someone pointed it out and Nintendo patched it. Now they're completely identical in their movesets.
I personally think that in the next game, daisy’s moves should be references to the spin off games like party, kart, and the sports titles to reference her being limited to those games. We could have a special that’s a die (similar to game and watch’s number attack) or have her have access to kart items.
DS is going to be insane on stamina matches
I dunno, I've always seen the point of echoes was being incredibly similar to their original counterpart, so they don't need to be balanced around the cast. Changing too much, they're no longer echoes, but clones.
That's why Dr. Mario isn't an echo, he's too different.
The only change I'd really do is remove Daisy's rng for the turnip.
Honesty If Smash Bros gains a reboot hope Jigglypuff gains echo (Scream Tail)
i had always hoped that the dlcs would include an echo fighter from that series along side the main fighter,Joker could've got a minato(p3 mc) or yu(p4 mc) echo fighter,Terry could've had a rock howard or alice echo fighter, min min could've had ninjara or ribbon girl. kazuya could've had jin or heihachi, and sora could've had roxus or kairi. the only thing thad need to be changed for most of them would be animations since most have the same moveset they just don't move the same way when doing them.
I love the way you redesigned Daisy, it fits her so much more than what we have now!
These are some solid changes
Who’s gonna tag mock rock?
I wonder if the Echo designation was fficially made BECAUSE they were mostly identical. Clones are the characters who are mostly the same like Fox and Falco but have received different attributes and movesets, like reverse tippers and whatnot, whereas Echoes really were just meant to be the QUICKEST of quick fixes- animations, voicelines, and NOTHING else. As such I wonder if Echoes really could be more than what they were, or if even these little changes would turn them into far more work than the development team could afford.
Still- it doesn't hurt to dream! So I will say I enjoyed this video and will be thinking about it, but I also don't know if I can ever make myself hope that it could ever really apply to Smash.
Well, the difference is that "clone" isn't an official designation, but rather a made-up idea by the fans that Nintendo doesn't really recognize. So, as far as Sakurai's team is concerned, Fox and Falco aren't "mostly the same," even though the fandom definitely agrees that they are.
Besides, clones aren't really as different as you're making them sound to be. They technically have different movesets, but only because one Special Move is different, or two. The rest is usually the same for a lot of these characters, and while they do have different attributes, for 98% of the gameplay experiences, those differences simply don't matter. Having a single move be different, and some of the frame data be slightly different, is *not* sufficient justification for calling two characters "distinct" fighters. And if my argument isn't convincing enough, then here is the definitive proof of my point: Pyra and Mythra are, by the game's standards, the same character. They aren't echo fighters. They aren't "clones" They are the same fighter, who can just transform between two different stances, but the stances just also happen to have different personalities, because of Xenoblade shenanigans. Pyra and Mythra don't occupy different fighter slots, and yet, Pyra and Mythra differ in both their stats and their Special Moves. There are characters who are clones who have just as many similarities as Pyra and Mythra do, but are treated as unique fighters, even if it doesn't really make sense for them to be clones, whereas in the case and Pyra and Mythra, they're the same character because it canonically makes sense.
Dark Samus' Phazon could be a great way to bump her to S-Tier, I believe. That would be awesome, all three of my mains being S-Tiers (The other two are Snake and Joker).
Gave Daisy the triple jump from Mario Run.
I LOVE your ideas for Daisy!
Can you do more movesets for more Kirby characters such as Marx, Adeline and Ribbon, Prince Fluff, Magolor, and Suzie? And since this video is about echo fighters, I think Kirby should have an echo fighter and it should be Gooey because they can both inhale and copy abilities but Gooey uses his tongue.
Galacta Knight Eco de Metaknight.
Dark Samus deserves to be brought back but with a completely different moveset; they did her so dirty it hurts
Can I just say I love your voice
I do think you should also give Daisy a faster falling speed and higher gravity (I think both values should be a bit higher than Mario's) to compensate for her lack of float, as well as giving her a slight trade-off in the form of worse air acceleration (which would fit her rougher personality better IMO). It would also nicely mirror the mobility differences between Marth and Roy, except that Daisy is the one with the higher jumps and not Peach.
Additionally, you should also greatly reduce the ending lag on Daisy's back aerial to compensate for her lack of float. Peach's bair has a lot of endlag when used in midair, but float compensates for that (especially when the move is used offstage to edgeguard opponents).
That said, if I had my way (especially since the next _Smash_ game is inevitably gonna be smaller-scope than _Ultimate_ overall), I'd actually go for a much more radical and extensive rework of Daisy that goes far deeper in making her different from Peach. Yeah, I'm kinda weird.
Can we have PAC-MAN for the next episode? Also great job on making the echo characters different.
I like to imagine if Daisy wasn’t an echo, her Down B would use the dice from Mario Party and while it would always do the same damage, the higher the number, the higher the knockback, kind of like the enemies hit we’re actually taking the steps.
Echo Fighters: Could be done differently, but the gesture is tolerable.
- First off, Daisy has some nice changes that I would also give her like scrapping the Float, giving her Peach’s old moves, and only keeping the Daisy Bomber. However, it’s like she’s still missing something. There’s not much brand new stuff added so that she’ll stand out from the rest and make her as her own; just being a simpler and faster version of Peach doesn’t do it for me. [7.5/10]
- Dark Pit not being changed all THAT much is just what I had in mind! As much as I like how you considered a change for both Pits, this gets held back due to Pit’s kit being fairly bland itself and Dark Pit Staff still being the Final Smash. Also, the reverse tippers working better for him than ROY? I dunno about that. [8/10]
- Finally, Dark Samus also makes a lot of sense to just have the original’s kit with a Phazon status effect attached. I do wish that more unique moves would be added to her; not too much emphasis on them, but just enough. [7.8/10]
Overall, them being Melee-style just leaves a bit more to be desired, but I admire that you aim to still have them be simple enough to implement. [7.8/10]
Honestly the echos should be essentially the same with a few changes mainly in smash attacks, some stats, and special moves. Also in the next game make chomper from pvz an echo for piranha plant. I mean it can just be the chomper in a potted plant or just the gw design