EXHAUST VALVE SPRING TECH! DO WE NEED LESS SPRING PRESSURES?
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- Опубліковано 22 бер 2023
- I GO THRU A DETAILED EXPLANATION OF WHY WE CAN RUN MUCH LOWER EXHAUST SPRING PRESSURES BY USING A FLOW BENCH, SHOWING HOW COMBUSTION GASES INSIDE THE CHAMBERS AND GOING OUT TO THE EXHAUST ASSIST IN KEEPING THE VALVES CONTROLLED HELPING THE EXHAUST SPRINGS!
I get numerous requests for technical advice and if interested, tex me @ 626 203 2712. $100-Half hour to $150-1 hour+ rates. Most calls go over as posted and it is ok. US Pacific time zone.
Crazy is defined as extremely enthusiastic. Yes you are extremely enthusiastic about making more power. And we all are truly grateful for you being extremely enthusiastic, and sharing it with the world.
Thank you sir for your kind words...
Ben has loads of common sense wisdom and is a treasure. Thanks for all your hard work Ben
I don't binge watch your videos , I'll watch 1 and think about it for a week or two. This one is no exception. People ask me "Whatcha' thinkin' " ? Engine dynamics! They mostly leave me be . Good stuff.
Glad you are an analytical type gearhead and those are who I want to reach out to. Thanks for supporting my channel.
More videos more knowledge please.. Ben you are AWESOME..
Thanks Patrick!
Great stuff here. I can listen to these classes every week.
Always new things to think about.
Thank you for sharing all the experience Ben.
Thanks George.
Good video and very insightful Ben. It's much cheaper to spend $300 + bucks on a set of good springs rather than shimming. Not worth risking destroying a motor. If I remember correctly I think we're running a PAC 1224-16 spring in the 430W Falcon.
Thanks! PAC for serious hard applications is what I always run on my engines. I see it all the time shimming and it is ok for milder racing applications, but many are way past 7500-8000 and they need those to be in top shape!
Agreed....shim in mild street applications when necessary, and order the right spring in any other severe race or endurance application. That alone had separated the men from the boys in my opinion.
Very good info! I always look forward to your next video. Thanks for sharing your knowledge!
I like technical stuff and now I feel it should be the direction my channel should go. What do you think?
Good Tech Ben.
Thanks for sharing.
Take care, Ed.
Thanks Ed!
Good stuff Ben. Thanks
Thanks as always!
Your not crazy Ben. Your experience and analysis is amazing. Every time I watch a video I wonder what you will come up with next. Great videos that keep me thinking.
Thanks Dean!
Great job Ben
Thanks!
Very interesting Ben, amazing technical insight brotha. So its a must to modify these areas of the spring to lengthen life, more like correct the manufactures design flaws😂😂. Love the way you think man. "Loft". I never actuslly thought about that. But man it sure does matter. Really got my gears turning in my head. Thanks buddy for shsring your knowkedge and experiance to help us grow to be better more efficient engine builders. Talk to you soon man.
Thanks as well partner and will always keep in touch.
I was building a little scooter engines last year, I went with a head with oversized valves, when I lapped the valves, I noticed it would flow alot more if the valve was about 1.5mm smaller, so I went with another company who bored the seats out, before seating the valves, making a better fit, un-shrouded! I basically doubled the power of that tiny engine, ported the head, polished the piston, chamber work, a cam, and a slight shave, nut I want to cut about .060-.080" from the head, get the compression to about 195-210 psi, with the higher compression piston I'm using , it's in the 165-170 psi range , judging by the performance, i already went from 2.5 hp to about 6hp , going from 39mm bore to a 50 mm bore, with valves 3mm larger, 20/23mm, vs 16/18.5mm and the ports opened freatly stiff springs , and titanium retainers! It's seen 10500 RPM, but is basically done by 9500+-9800, itneeds a cam,
Great video as usual !! Thank you Mr Alameda
Thanks!
On supercharged or turbo engines high seat pressures is a must, you are counteracting the manifold pressures, if you have 45psi manifold pressure and a 2.40 intake use the corrected area minus the stem area by pi and that's the pressure trying to blow the valve off its seat.......Hat.
Yes got to take those into account.
Great video
Thanks!
Thanks for video!
Thanks for supporting my channel.
I like your thinking Ben. Love your channel. I had an additional idea. If I was going for the ragged edge/minimum for spring pressure on the exhaust, I would think to size the spring using a spin-tron machine just at the maximum engine RPM with the spark plug installed and then decrease the spring pressure from there to take advantage of the exhaust gases assisting the valve. The problem though is if there was a failed combustion event on any one cylinder or multiple cylinders at the track, such as by a failed spark plug(s), the valve would no longer be assisted by waste gases and possibly cause the valve to float while the other running cylinders kept the engine at high rpm and then smack the piston! Obviously there would have to have some cushion added.
Jesse, thanks and I will expand on these concerns as well on the next videos which will be about the conical and bee hive springs
Dude that just blew my mind! 😲
It makes so much sense yet I never thought of it that way 😂
Thanks and hope it help everyone like you in making more power.
Love the channel
Thanks!
I agree with you a couple videos about having compression at 11 for the street. I can get 93 octane pump gas on every 3rd corner where I live. I enjoy your knowledge very much.
Glad you went for the suggested higher compression than the typical 8.5 - 9.5 compression on the streets! You will basically beat the others out there with very low compression running and thinking they got it right.
I agree with your thinking of a lighter spring for the exhaust valve. If I eliminate the inner spring would that be ok or too much? Thanks.
Good stuff, Ben!
Greetings Pare!
@@benalamedaracing2765 Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas, Ben! Best wishes to you and Carmen! I miss you, pare ko!!
Thanks Ben
Your welcome sir.
Hello from. North Carolina Ben. What you are telling us makes so much sense. Especially with the smaller exhaust valve. To slow the intake charge from going out the exhaust. I remember when I was little my dad would tell me engines need back pressure so the unburnt gas gets pushed back into the cylinder so it can be returned. He said it helped with fuel mileage and power. Not sure if that is correct or even partially correct. But using a single angle on the exhaust valve to slow the exiting of intake charge definitely makes sense. Thank you for your videos as always.
Hugh, back pressures is never good and i will be doing a video on these in the future as it becomes also a dynamical issue that I will try to break down in simple explanations.
Ok great. Thank you sir.
Ben you are a very smart man on these engines is there anything you don't no lol great information
Thank you sir.
You're right about high speed exhaust creating a low pressure on the cylinder to help pull air/fuel into cylinder during overlap and also cylinder pressure makes the exhaust valve require way more physical force to open it. So there are two factors, cylinder pressure pushing valve into the seat & the low pressure areas created during exhausting. I remember guts using too tight an LSA cam on a turbo car bending exhaust pushrods with ease as they learned cylinder pressure was too great to physically open the exhaust valve.
Terry, thanks for your valuable insight and experience with these issues I highlighted on this video. Lots of racecar presently boosted are experimenting changing their LSA to help with the issues of bending rockers arms, pushrods or both!
I was thinking about lighter exhaust springs when I heard how much it took to open the exhaust on pro mod motors. Thanks for explaining it. On the blunt end it's like hitting the coil with a chisel. Eventually that concentrated hammering is going to do damage. When a spring loses it's spring pressure the metal is becoming fatigued and shimming it will just accelerate the material fatigue and it will fail sooner.
James, yes sir shimming just keeps it closer to coil bind more than anytime and the fatigue situation gets worse from there. I remember one individual who went from .540 lift to .570 saying his springs should be able to handle the added lift.
Well, not that many miles and runs the springs started failing one after the other luck he did not drop a valve and destroyed his engine! He eventually replaced all of it and has been running flawlessly ever since.
Man you give me something to thing about every video. Very good stuff. If your spring rate is say 400 what would u recommend the exaust rate be reduced to? With a .630 lift cam . I may try this reason for asking because it makes sense and I can see where it would save horsepower by not having to turn that extra pressure being exerted on the cam
79, it depends on the spring installed pressures and I have seen many with installed pressures of 350# take out 70-80# easily with no issues whatsoever.
Others will go over these numbers turning close to 10K!
@@benalamedaracing2765 im going to play it safe but most definely going to do it . Man u hit a home run every vid. Keep them coming
@@79beans347 Thanks and even a slight reduction in pressure will go a long way because if it is a V8? Then it is 8x the reduction which would amount to an increase in power. In competition you find horsepower anywhere and that makes you more competitive on the streets or track!
Hi Ben
would this work on a turbo engine as well I'm thing yes ? @@benalamedaracing2765
I hope that there is another video that talks about the conical valve sprng.
If i could just get a conical and a bee hive we will be doing this!
Ok Ben, I follow the logic. My question is; how much can I decrease pressure?
Let's say I've got a double spring rated at 380lbs over the nose to control the intake valve up to 0.660" lift.... Can I run the stock spring on the exhaust? Can I remove the inner spring of the double? Do you have a known equation or a given value that the spring pressure can be decreased? I bet you're going to tell me, "All applications vary. You'll have to try and see."
I would not remove the inner spring on a double valve spring because I feel that would be too weak. Plus I consider the inner spring a catch spring just in case you break the outer which is most cases and the inner will keep the valves from dropping. Seen it happen many times. Now on how much to cut? I suggest you call your spring company or cam company and if you are at 380# you can easily cut that to 330# and they should have a double spring with that kinds of pressure. Make sure to keep the same installed pressures or close to it because that is the weakest part when the valves are closing that valve bounce can occur.
@@benalamedaracing2765 so 50lbs off the exhaust valve is all you're talking about here?
I wish i could get a cam reccommendation from ben almeda himself 😢
Hey Ben i was wanting to try some used race springs on a milder application that no longer requires the amount of stiffness it had before, so should they last since they are weakened beyond their prime that their strength that is retained still remains indefinitely or a much longer period of time. Well also trying a custom design hydraulic roller cam i want to build with multiple base circles. Cam shall be .600" peak lift only because of the rocker arm ratio throughout it's arc. i can tell you a secret about this cam, although it is probably not anything you haven't heard before . . .The intake valve off the seat is faster and the cam and spring smoother because . . . .guess. . .
I sincerely do not advise doing these things due to the fact the springs from let us say .700 lift is now used on a .600? It becomes wobbly at high rpms and becomes very unstable lending itself to dangerous oscillations which will go out of control. It does not happen only at high engines speeds but also on the mid range part of the rpm range...
thanks a bunch uncle ben!@medaracing2765 bless
I heard someone suggest that running single springs very close to coil bind would stop the hula effect at max lift, and thus help with control. Is this reasonable? if this is good, what would be too much shim if shims were needed to achieve near coil bind?
It really depends if the installed height makes max lift close to coil bind specially on the tight side. Adding even as small as .020-.030 can indeed be a dangerous because it takes it even more closer to coil bind!
Is Ross pistons/isky cams sponsors also how do you come up with a proper cam do you use a equation of some sort ?
Cam manufacturers usually have a catalog with specific compression, rpm and gear ratio recommendations. On all out serious stuff it is black art! lol
The reason I can give you is the last time I know a small block made over a 1000hp with a good cam at the time! Well the owner decreased the duration @ .050 by 7* and the car actually got faster on the track while the dyno showed the horsepower decreased! I feel the increased mid range and rpm did not peak as much but made more "average" power across the rpm spectrum or range.
Ben what about the retro fit Beehive single spring not using a dampener?
does it work because of there shape, Brett
They work real good!
Are your exhaust springs are different than the intake springs? If the exhaust lobe is taller than the intake, do you set the installed height greater on the exhaust (less seat presssure) to come to the same compressed height as the intake?
I do run a different spring due to installing it taller increases the chance of harmonics or dangerous oscillations because the springs are too far apart at max lift.
GREAT VIDEO BEN, THANK YOU, HOW DO I GET IN TOUCH WITH YOU? IM BUILDING AN ENGINE AND I WOULD LIKE TO BUY SPRINGS FROM YOU I WOULD LIKE TO GO OVER WHAT IM DOING WITH YOU SO I DONT RUN INTO ANY PROBLEMS OWN THE ROAD , I JUST SUBSCRIBED, THANK YOU AGAIN
Tex me @ my contact number then we go from there.
I was told with high compression it helps close the valve?
Higher compression does help pressurize the chambers and indeed the valves keeping them closed! But with that the dome also comes into the picture and can keep matters even closer to a collision.
Ben, can you pls tell how to have lifter springs.,
You are probably referring to a rev kit installed above the lifters? If correct we seldom use them these days while many still swear by it.
Anything to lighten up the the top end.
Is it not typical to run a titanium intake, steel exhaust and the reason the pressures would be similar?
Everything is set up differently and have done it with an 11/32 intake (T) and a 5/16 steel exhaust then I lighten the springs.
Is there really a top and bottom of the spring pack?
Only on the beehive and conical.
Better Hope No Coil Bind...? Ck your retainers.make sure there not touching the seal .!! If it does you be pulling the Motor. For sure.....metal gone through everthing. New cam and lifters at least..all bearings maybe a crank as well .
So if i wanted less spring pressure on my exhaust valves should i order a new set with less pressure or take some shims out?
To do it right a proper spring is indeed correct but if it is not a true high perf. engine in a sense a shim reduction is ok.
@@benalamedaracing2765 thank you Ben I love watching your videos and I'm learning a lot
not necessarily, you want a fast exhaust ramp to open the exhaust rapidly, so you can keep the exhaust closed as long as possible but crack it fast and hard to evacuate the cylinder
The issue today with very high horsepower engines is the stresses of opening the exhaust valve and many have resorted to steel exhaust rocker and keeping the intake aluminum as usual. Lofting and pushrod issues besides breaking rocker arms is a real issue today. Thanks for your support Ez.
You could calculate how hard the engine is pushing against the valve, how many psi to the square inches the valve is.
Yes and the bigger the exhaust diameter is the harder it is to open against the combustion pressures.
@@benalamedaracing2765 Yes sir. I've heard the top fuel guys saying they can't open the ex any sooner because of the pressure left, if they try things just break. I've dealt with ex opening on nitrous engines and they need a bigger valve and or open it sooner to blow down the large amount of ex in the chamber.
May ask ur opinion on this subject but when you have an inconel exhaust valve in a marine application and the exhaust valve is heavier would you still lighten the spring pressure.
100 percent agree with a smaller exhaust diameter.
Reducing the pressures should work but do not go overboard and get yourself in trouble.
Just think if you had a chev..😊
Thanks and we will also have the same problem! lol
Anyway, my main concern focused on the two siamese exhaust ports creating extreme heating of the two side by side springs which is very hard on the springs because of inadequate cooling. On endurance or hard running engines, I place a coolant exit (braided hose) between and goes straight to the bottom of the thermostat housing! It does wonders.
@@benalamedaracing2765 t is a bad problem on those engines especially the aluminum blocks and heads cause once aluminum heats up it seems like it stays hotter for a longer time. I had the same problem years ago and if you got individual cyclinder tuning or egts you can throw more uel at those cylinders but that's a bandaid to me.
The low pressure closing the exhaust makes me wonder about the oil seal …. Pulling oil into the exhaust…hmmm
It is always a problem even with stock engines. Use the best seals on intakes and exhaust!
Absacrazylutly, its called aerodynamics ¡!!!
Yes sir!
If what he is saying is true, now I know why so much carbon builds up on the valve. Low pressure .
"I could've had a v8"....lol
Many says once you go V8 you never go back! lol
@@benalamedaracing2765 🤣
I'm A-B normal too.😂
Join the club haha! Thanks for supporting my channel.
Thank you for your knowledge and videos USA 🇺🇸 TRUMP 2024
Yes sir!
Rotary valve/cam valve. Problem solved.
It can work if we can keep the fuel from centrifuging job done!
@@benalamedaracing2765 direct fuel injection....someday
Not crazy very smart
Thank you sir.
Years ago we use to put a shorter pushrod on the intake for those reasons from what I remember
I am not sure for what reason? Could you clarify more in detail needed.
What some people did was they would lower the lift on the exhaust side and leave a high lift in the intake side
Ben I have a question on this build that of course I’m following ur expertise so I started building a 418 with 5 cc pistons and a 4100 crank 6.2 rods don’t pay mind to the compression which put me at a high number 12.8 it’s intentions isn’t for a street daily gas of course became the issue. So now I changed the pistons to a 28cc dome using a 6 inch rod and 4100 crank now I’m at 10.1 as far as horsepower did I just kill the build and the horsepower went out the window in this 418 build?
@@tonymontana4349 I have a video of this very subject someplace here.
Gonna scroll in ur videos to see