One Small Change RUINED Golem in Competitive Gen 1 Pokemon. Here's Why.
Вставка
- Опубліковано 11 бер 2022
- One Small Change RUINED Golem in Competitive Gen 1 Pokemon. Here's Why.
Pokemon can be crazy sometimes.
Competitive Pokemon refers to Smogon's singles tiers. The tier is RBY OU, Gen 1.
www.smogon.com/articles/rby-g... - Smogon Article about the topic, also the source for the statistics.
Join the Team Freeze Discord! / discord
/ freezaiyt - Follow me on twitter
Shouts to Pedro for being the first Team Freeze Member! - Ігри
Pieces of oddly specific, but fascinating competitive history like this are the reason I love this channel
Exactly
yes lol
proof showdown/smogon players are casuals
I think the extra fascinating thing about this is that the reverse has happened in Gen 2, with Golem becoming super popular and Rhydon falling off a lot. This was a really great explanation!
Hey, Freezai could do a video on that, too
people definitely figured out how good explosion offense was in gen 2 after so many years of stall.
Then Golem fell off again after they took away Rapid Spin from it...
@@martinus_mars Is Golem just bad and uncompetitive in every game once the games are figured out properly?
what happened there?
You only touched that point on the surface, but this seems to be yet another case of a Pokemon that had uses in a high tier (OU), but is unviable in a lower tier (UU). RBY UU doesn't have the demand for a bulky normal resist the way OU does, so Golems main use just wasn't needed. This is similar to Quagsire and Gastrodon having their uses in OU and even Ubers despite being RU/UU/PU by usage. Before the Body Slam discovery, Golem had enough usage to stay in OU, but once it droped, it went almost straight to NU because it was way worse in UU than in OU.
also, don't Water types kinda rule over Gen 1 UU in a similar vein to normal types ruling over OU?
Pokémon that kinda ignore the tiering system are fascinating to me. Mons like Ditto, Shuckle, or Pyukumuku can be seen in any tier from Ubers to ZU. I'd love to see a video discussing that in more depth.
This is even echoed by Alolan Golem in gen 7. It's useful in OU because it can trap and kill Heatran, but not useful enough to be in the tier. Then in every lower tier it is 100% useless.
@@japanpanda2179 in Monotype Electric A-Golem is good too, it has Stealth Rock, a strong physical movepool and trapping Power
Quagsire only seems to show up a lot when the overall power level of certain mons gets a bit too high because Unaware + Water/Ground typing can be the perfect counter to many busted setup mons. However when there isn't a dominant threat where Unaware and that typing is needed it kinda just chills in the lower tiers because you have other options that are better overall. It only shows up when the other things that are normally better than it don't work and you all of a sudden need that Unaware Water/Ground combo.
Actually the speedrunning community knew about this long before the competitive community did. Still interesting to see such a shift in the meta.
I think it's lost to time that the issue is that wayyyy back in the day online simulators had a lot of restrictions and couldn't code that mons types were immune to status conditions from their own typed moves, because for most speedrun categories it has been such public knowledge, and it has only been implemented in online simulators when they became the premiere way to play competitive singles.
@@bren8511 But accord to screen shots from the video. It wasn't an issue of not being able to code it in, it was literally "hey we didn't even know this quirk existed".
@Bren It has very little to do with an inability to code. By the mid 2000s all simulators had coding for tbolt not to paralyze electrics because that was common knowledge. Also sims had abilities and EV IV system, etc. Being unable to code something so basic is utterly absurd to even think was a possibility. No the actual truth is basically no one knew about it.
The speedrunning community knew what before the competitive? That normal types can't be paralyzed by Body Slam? That Golem was much worse than Rhydon? That makes no sense...normal types and Golem and Rhydon aren't used in speedruns, and you don't face or use Body Slam very often anyway. This seems like a lie.
@Cameron L they didn't know anything about Golem's viability lol they just knew that normals couldn't be paralyzed by normal type attacks. Why? Because speedrunners play on the physical cart or emulator whereas competitive players play on a sim. Makes sense. Speedrunners might not even know that Tauros is the best gen 1 OU mon because their job is to speedrun.
Kinda interesting that Golem wasn't good in UU despite being OU for most of RBY. Goes to show how different two metagames in the same generation could be.
Definitely, with the exception of Gen 4 all generations have a very different OU and UU
Also why Reuniclus has been decent in OU every gen despite normally chilling in RU or why Volcanion is set to rise to OU despite being pretty bad in UU.
@@maagic2031 isnt volcanion ru?
@@alphanbuster9292 It's RU because it was bad in UU.
@@maagic2031 well
What's the most crazy thing about the Body Slam discovery is that they TOLD us in Pokémon Stadium 2. There's an Academy in the game where they cover changes from Gen I to Gen II, and there's a bit there where they tell us that in Gen I moves couldn't status Pokémon of the same type, but in Gen II they can. They use an Electabuzz getting paralysed by Thunderbolt to demonstrate it, which the game explains wasn't possible before in the original games. So they kind of did tell us and there were probably people out there who knew about Body Slam and normal types because millions of people had that game!
Twineedle can poison a bug pokémon.
@@franko1597 Because poison is treated differently compared to the other statuses. It couldn't poison poison-types, but could poison anyone else regardless of the move's type
@@smaragdchaos Twinneedle actually COULD poison Poison-types in Gen 1 and 2 (and Steel in Gen 2).
Request: Why is Quagsire so... Quagsire? It's a Pokemon which has consistently been a lower tier lifer, yet somehow always found ways to finagle its way into viability in many, many tiers, including even Ubers.
what you're asking for is a proper documentary, but i'd still love to see it
One word: Unaware.
Slightly longer: Quagsire just does what it wants.
unaware is just fucking cracked lmao
Unaware is the main answer, but its typing is also godlike. Water/Ground has only one weakness (double weakness to Grass, which isn't even that common as an attacking type), one immunity (Electric, very useful for avoiding many sources of paralysis including TWave), and 4 resistances (Fire, Rock, Steel and Poison). The combination of that ability, that typing, decent stats and a wide movepool containing a lot of useful stuff makes it always relevant, especially for stopping setup sweepers that can neither demolish it with a super effective move nor overpower it with their upped stats. Quag laughs in the face of men and gods alike.
Unaware isn't the only thing that made Quag good, although Unaware made it viable for many more tiers it was still viable in past gens using Water Absorb, his movepool and typing is just that good he could fill niches
Golem hit rock bottom.
Ba dum tss
...so you're telling me golem used to be a rock _top_ ? mighty interesting...
It's not Very Effective.
Funny joke, but it's really stone cold toward Golem.
harr harr
I remember reading something on the smogon forums about how its impossible to catch a perfect IV geodude in gen 1, and people were debating whether trading one from gen 2 would be allowed. I never did find out the conclusion of this.
I think they allow that for the purpose of DVs, but no GSC-exclusive movesets for the original 151 (e.g. Aerodactyl with Earthquake).
The most interesting part is that Stadium 2 told us about this so-called hidden mechanic in the Gen 1 games long ago.
I have a feeling a good chunk of the people playing via Showdown never touched the early Gen games, especially the side stuff, outside of the site. That being said, I never actually used Body Slam until my most recent play through of Yellow because I always had Thunderwave and just plain stronger attacks for the story and even then you don’t face that many Normal types that are challenging so it’s not something that you notice outside of a challenge run of some kind.
slight correction - Chansey and Snorlax WERE already on every GOOD competitive team in 2014, it's just Reflect was rarely seen and chansey didn't run seismic toss. Also the rhydon/golem debate wasn't as clear cut in golem's favor as you make it sound, some players were already adamant Rhydon was better even back then.
I think the meta would have EVENTUALLY shifted to Rhydon anyway given enough time and new players, since looking back, rhydon might have always been better. I was a diehard pro-golem guy back then and after using the same pokemon since 2003 it was hard to convince me to change my mind. I think a lot of players were like that, stuck in the mindset of using the same Pokémon since the beginning, and It took the metagame shifting hard for players to finally switch.
Outside of reflect not being as present back then to nulify the effects of explosion, something that ocurred to me is that slowbro may have been more popular during that time, and golem already having explosion to deal with it while simulteaneously checking the electrics was more apreciated as a result, because I don't think they were too keen of making sacrifices to fit victribel in their team, especially since wrap wasn't recognized as a proper tool back then, more do like a cheese move.
But those are just my thoughts.
Eh you can at least make the argument for not having snorlax on t wave spam teams. It doesn’t really benifit much from the entire opponent’s team being paralyzed like a wrapper or even machamp does nor does it learn twave
With reflect being common on Chansey now, does that make Chansey the best Snorlax switchin in the game? You get in on body slam, never get paralyzed (which is what makes Reflect so much better), set up reflect, and now Snorlax will never beat you unless he tries to freeze or explode on you.
@@drunyon214 snorlax can possibly pp stall with sleep. And letting a set with amnesia setup isn’t the best idea. Maybe it’s a good idea if your goal is to make it sleep then switch in a wrapper to abuse that but that’s about it.
I just find it kinda sad that what little niche differences Golem granted compared to Rhydon are just vastly outclassed by going all in on more Normal types who were already seeing high usage anyway so you weren't reaching to cover specific niches.
I was so confused about the "discovery", so having it finally explained was nice. Amazing video
You never stop with the niche stories/metagame explainations! Keep it up bro. Love the content
Could you maybe do a video on dugtrio? Specifically how it went from OU in Gens 3-6 to untiered in Gen 7 and 8. I don’t think there’s been a fall of tiers that bad since lucifer.
IIRC Arena Trap Got banned after Smogon stopped updating the tier list in multiple formats. So Dugtrio is only OU by Technicality as it was still OU at the end of the BW era but it's main niche got banned for Gen 4 onwards. Sometimes there are bans put into place after the tier list stopped updating on Smogon, I'm pretty sure ADV Mr. Mime is in ubers due to all the baton pass win fishing that it was used for rather than its actual power with baton pass.
upvoted your comment just for the clever joke
I think a video on why dugtrio is very good in gen 1 uu is going to be far more interesting, considering how everyone knows about arena trap. Also those gen 2 sub swagger sets, jesus christ.
That’s an easy one, Arena trap is banned, and without it, Dugtrio is ass
@@costby1105 dugtrio also had its base attack increased from 80 to 100 in SM, so previously there was a lot of people it had trouble threatening due to its low attack but base 100 attack changed that drastically
I like obscure and intricate trivia facts like this, I find them more interesting than the ones that can be summed up with "the mon is broken" like why was Dracovish or Greninja banned, altough the way you explain in extreme detail what part of their kits make them so good in their metagame is very good too
You are doing a great job on those short informative video's, i really enjoy them. You have earned my sub man.
Kinda weird how just a discovery of a one line code can change a competitive's game entire strategy.Damn
"discovery"
The knowledge has been around for 10 years.
@@vyor8837 But at that time it was a discovery, they’re not wrong.
@@vyor8837 it was still "discovered" at some point (10 years ago)
I mean, it was stated in stadium 2 that paralysis from body slam won't land on normal types, so yeah... It's kinda surprising nobody had known about it until the end of 2014
That's fascinating! Thanks for sharing
Thanks for this, used to browse Smogon over a decade ago and Golem used to be OU, so I was stunned to see that on a revisit, it had dropped all the way to NU.
Hyper Beam skipping the recharge after a K.O. needs to come back.
Man, you discover 1 little immunity, & everything just spirals out of control, & it all comes tumbling down.
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
Well, never seen any of your videos before but I love bites of history or lore, and this shit was a good watch. Subscribe earned.
Make more videos on gen 1. It’s the most interesting generation mechanically and not many are educated on it due to how different it is
Big yellow has good gen 1 videos
would recommend big yellow, they make great vids about competitive gen 1 :>
I would just recommend watching crystal_ and chickasaurus evie's videos, because they are the ones who are constantly discovering these stuff and making informative videos about it.
@@minimaxify his videos are so interesting.
@@internetrandodotcom they?
I sincerely love how abruptly these videos end.
RIP Golem. whenever i played casually, i always had Rhydon on my team, because Golem required an in game trade, which was too much of a hassle.
plus you can catch Rhydon fairly commonly in Cerulean Cave in Pokemon yellow version, which is a great place to save your game, and catch a whole bunch of Rhydon, and try to find one with that 15 attack DV
Late but i dislike how the pokemon inside cerulean cave changed over the gens.(also adding wobbuffet to it was a mistake).
I love seeing the waves the bodyslam change made with the community. Its really fascinating and adds alot to RBY's storied metagame.
Golem is pretty good in NU though. Its stats are pretty high for the tier and NU has this problem were every fire spinner in the game is in the tier and they are really good and most of the good water type are in the upper tiers
you can make a half your team consist of just fire spinners and the other half just to counter what fire is weak too and have a really good chance at winning. fire spin should be banned from NU honestly
Can you remind me what fire spin does (too lazy to look it up myself)?
@@lkjkhfggd In Gen 1, moves like Bind, Clamp, and Fire Spin actually stop the opposing Pokemon from doing anything while being trapped. That's actually the main reason Dragonite is used, since Dragon is a trash type and Flying has like 2 moves in Gen 1. It just perma-wraps anything slower than it.
@@lkjkhfggd In Generation 2 onwards, Trapping attacks (Wrap, Bind, Clamp, Fire Spin.) prevented the victim from switching, but not from attacking. In Generation 1, it's the reverse: Trapping moves let you switch, but they prevent you from USING MOVES.
If you get hit with a trapping move in Generation 1, you can't use any moves for its whole random duration, be that 2, 3, 4 or even 5 turns.
& if the trapping move user is FASTER than their victim, they can restart the trap EVERY TURN; So long as you don't miss, any slower foe can't make a move. Literally.
there where many instances of me having to switch moltres on an earthquake, just to double back to blastoise to take less damage from rock slide/bodyslam, or just risk the fire spin if i really don't have another choice. Golem just hits too hard for the tier man, and mandibluzztoise is already tasked with mostly checking virtually almost every offensive threat that just so happened to tumble down to rock bottom NU. So yeah, I (maybe) make sure my teams don't get destroyed by golem every time he switches in.
I'm gonna be honest. I don't actually play competitive Pokémon. At most maybe some random team battles occasionally. But I've still grown to love this channel. The videos are short (although I wouldn't mind longer ones too) so I always feel like I can watch it whenever, they're also just interesting. I think that mainly lends to the way its presented, not just the info. You could definitely make a video saying this information, and have it be very boring. But their videos somehow always balance that line perfectly, of being pretty niche and nerdy, but still avoiding being boring!
I knew golem usage dropped over time, but I didn't realize this was the reason. Cool vid.
It's super interesting how metagames can change so far after the games were released! I've never played Gen 1 (or any of the remakes tbh... don't look at me like that), so this certainly comes as news to me!
Worth noting, while what was said here is the reasons it dropped to NU, it's not a bad pokemon in OU.
It's not the easiest pokemon to use but if you know how to, it can still be a great addition to a team.
All though arguably harder to pull off, this also applies to uu. Being able to threaten a paralyzed articuno and barrage hard hitting earthquakes when giving the opportunity while simulteaneously checking electabuzz and kadabra to a certain extent is pretty damn good and unique.
Forgot to mention that bringim him on the field it's made easier thanks to to the partial trapping utility that wrap provides, functioning as a pseudo u-turn that defines the metagame as a whole, not to mention golem resists the move, making it more useful for pivoting.
It's not bad but it's just outclassed by Rhydon. But yes, it is still much better in OU than in UU because of the way the meta is.
@@wannabecinnabon in many ways, yes golem is a more reliable and better option, but golems explosion is enough to make it better is a lot of situations.
A simplified way to say it would be that Rhydon is better on more defensive or balanced teams, while golem is better on more offensive teams.
@@wertyxq3468 Yeah no, not really, Articuno normally runs agility which lets it ignore the paralysis drop, which it would use on the turn golem comes in and still threaten to OHKO it, and Electabuzz isn't common enough to warrant running Golem to check. Meanwhile it can't get in very well against anything else and most of the tier outspeed and threatens to OHKO/2HKO. There are also multiple pokemon that can switch into it decently well such as the grasses, vaporeon, gyarados, and dnite, (those last 2 relying on prediction) before forcing it out. By comparison, other wallbreakers like Kangaskhan, Gyarados, Dragonite, and Dodrio, have far fewer answers than golem does and consistently accomplish more on a game to game basis. It can work in UU, but its not very good.
Great video, as always. I recommend you to have a tiny outro, the ending always seems a bit abrupt
Yay, you used my suggestion!
2:28 "It shouldn't be exploding early" good one there
Love this kind of content
Yeah, it's a weird but unique thing in gen 1, where pokemon can't be given a status by moves of the same type as them. I honestly think it should be something that could be brought back as it'd be a nice little interesting thing to add on top.
That would mean Grass types are immune to Stun Spore/Sleep Powder/Spore in Gen 1?
@@mrboost4186 that and electric types being immune to prlz and fire types to burn...
@@mrboost4186 pretty sure they are
@@mrboost4186 They already are, powder moves in general don't affect Grass-types anymore. Though they weren't immune to those in Gen 1, pure status moves were treated differently, it was only side-effects that couldn't affect the same type as the move.
It already works like that body slam was just an oversight. It's one of the few moves that makes a status that's not of the same type
Having started to play in 2017 in gen 1 ou specifically, watching the metagame legitimately shift in the last few years has been wild, considering how golem/Rhydon were still treated as somewhat interchangeable even then.
My man's speedrunning youtube algorithm 30k almost already
I love how decades later peope can still discover things about pokemon. People might complain about its' code being held together by duct tape and bubblegum but we still discover new stuff all the time. Its amazing. I doubt theres many other video games that have undergone this level of scrutiny
An intresting additional note is that fire types are infact not immune to burn inately in generation 2 only that they cant be burned due to sharing a type with fire moves which cause triattack to be able to burn fire types in generation 2.
Can you do a video on what determines the available formats on Showdown? Like is there a reason they still don't have an anything goes or national dex format for doubles?
I love how different gen 1 is
Snorlax: "See me as I am, no longer afraid of anything!"
porygon: hi
I love how the both things looks unrelated at first, but once you explain, make sense.
How a simple discovery ruined Golem's career.
0:30 I'm subbed & chill voice
Literally my favorite Pokemon in the entire game. I had one in Pokemon Leaf green that straight up beat half my older brother's team. We were kids but up until gen 8 I ran Golem in every team I played. (Note, I only play monotype)
Golems world got turned on its head.
What a discovery.
LOVED THIS VIDEO
This is my goto channel for my competitive daily dose.
hey, i saw you were using the random battles addon but mine doesnt work. do you know why?
Love this video.
I’m always amazed by the math that goes on competitive play
This is only on Smogon / RBY cartridges / ROMs, though. In Stadium, Golem should retain its usage, right?
Insane that wasn't discovered until 2014, I just replayed Red and saw that plastered all over Bulbapedia, that's so funny.
Yeah, I remember old false swipe gaming videos talking about how it was it or rhydon and then nowadays its always just rhydon
Welp, golem got grounded.
Ohhhh... Amazing how the mecanics can change to turn GEN 1 glitch into a new meta. I have no words.
It’s amazing how taking a shortcut in programming can have such a heavy effect on a game.
I believe the reason Body Slam doesn’t paralyze normals and such is a side-effect from them making Ice, Fire and Poison types immune to their respective statuses. Instead of taking the time to specifically code each type, they just made a “types can’t be statused by moves of their same type,” not thinking about moves like Body Slam or Tri-Attack that have statuses without being associated with their expected types
Tri attack doesn't inflict any status in gen 1.
Makes me wonder if Twin needle can inflict poison onto poison types
@@Chaosfly10 Twineedle can poison poison and steel types in gens 1 and 2!
@@Tomix4k That's pretty awesome actually! Just wish that move was on a more viable pokemon even though I love beedrill
@@rifasclub Ah! My bad there
The weird part of no one ever knowing this is that the EXACT thing abuot normal types being immune to para by T-wave is in stadium 2's classroom mode in one of the lessons there.
To be fair though...If rhydon didn't exist it might still be used up there right? So it is just the case of a pokemon being completely outclassed rather than fundamentally trash (yes I count them as two separate things.)
If rhydon wasnt there then golem would have probably shifted its sets to be more like Rhydon.Although once again it would be a bit worse since for example it cant set up 101 hp subs.The meta would probably be a bit worse in my opinion since reflect would become even more omnipresent without Rhydon.
@@noishfanboy1141 No doubt. I am only pointing out the difference between a outclassed poke and a fundamentally bad poke.
@@noahhendrix3498 ok
3:05 Don't you mean "Butterfree effect"?
...Okay, I'll see myself out.
Ok now thats just depressing.
Wait how was this bug _just_ discovered, I noticed RNG seemed to fuck me over on my body slams after my 7th playthroguh (and I'm just a casual fan) and by 2007 (I don't know I found this out from) I knew about the bug. And a lot of other Pokemon Red Blue Yellow bugs. If I'm just a causal fan, how did I know about this bug a decade before the competitive players?
I may be wrong but I think pokémon Stadium 2 had this info mentioned, and probably Stadium 1 too
1:15 what was that "wah" there?
Crazy but such a mechanic in Gen 1 makes sense it feels like it would have some immunity thing to the type if T Bolt can't Para Elec.
I like how it took Smogon until 2014 to realize the paralysis quirk of Gen 1 when Stadium 2 basically tells you this and the speedrunning community knew about it well before lol
It might be because competitive scenes of any game are kinda snobbish and only pay attention to competitive stuff and tend to either ignore or flat out dismiss anything else.
True. I've seen more than enough competitive players not know incidental shit like Scald removing freeze on its user, or Electric Terrain preventing sleep against grounded Pokémon.
@@lytethekyte That's pretty accurate
you should check that on the first battle simulator lol
Oof, yeah that's a HUGE drop. Time makes fools of us all isn't usually supposed to mean that but for Golem it sucks super hard.
Is this true for Pokémon Stadium, too!?
If you're open to taking suggestions: something I'm wondering is why Scizor went from being an all-time great from Gens 2-7 to being projected to drop from SwSh OU soon. (It's still great in BDSP OU, though.)
Eh, Scizor wasn't really considered great until like mid gen 4. Up to that point, it had a few niches as a baton passer and that was about it.
@@MrZahsome yeah, despite the great stats and amazing typing, it's movepool was just too weak until Platinum gave it Bullet Punch. No coincidence that basically every Scizor has run it since!
You know, this drop was so sharp...
You would think there was some sort of power behind it, assisting Golem to be the best it could be.
*and then one day, it didn't answer.*
Nothing but glitch noise...
Only ohko on alolan muk with eq and outspeeds in let’s go.
Fun fact. It’s why I run gaze on my team just for that
It bugs me that this is considered a discovery when Pokémon Stadium 2 literally tells you that this was a mechanic.
I would never know that lol
fun fact: initially after the discovery golem WAS considered better than Rhydon by a long shot
That's incredible tbh
I thought they knew this awhile ago...
0:32 cool tauros nickname
I'm having fucking flashbacks to Gen 1 Netbattle battles taking forever because of Paralysis 20+ years ago... my Gen 1 competitive trauma is a LIE!
Man Gen I was so weird
There has to be at least one guy who figured out the body slam quirk back in the 90s who now feels extremely vindicated that it took over 15 years for everyone else
One thing to note, golem still has a niche in OU because explosion isn’t awful, it’s just not quite as valuable. So it still has some use.
This was a big uff
As the last OU Golem user, I think its higher Speed is also worth mentioning since it will beat Rhydon in the 1v1 scenario. Still, doing better into 1 mon at the cost of worse performance into the rest of the tier outside of Explosion is a tradeoff I think most people don't want to make.
Ultimately when people see a mon get dropped from OU they just assume its "become useless." Golem is still a genuinely strong Pokemon in the right situation, same with Victreebel and Lapras (the latter of whom I think is much worse than Golem in competitive OU). But I can certainly understand why people would be less receptive to it with Rhydon as its competition.
I also use golem but i use It with victribel
I think It works beter than rhydon if You treat victribel asa win condtion with wrap sleep powder and razor leaf.
Golem can counter jolteon Zapdos and Gengar Wich shut down victribel and he can explode when there's none of those
I guess this means a new golem video is due on False Swipe Gaming.
Heck, I wonder what this change did to tauros in gen 1.
I dunno whether or not this was due to the change itself exactly, but I'd argue Tauros would have been slightly hurt by it. Judging by the way people talk about it, Tauros went from being the "undisputed best pokemon" in like 2015-2016 to being the "best pokemon with room for debate" in 2021. The fact that this change really benefits Snorlax and Chansey are probably the reasons why this observation occured.
Well, it means it doesn't have to worry about random Paralysis from Body Slams.
That is absolutely insane to me. Golem was always a huge powerhouse in the gen 1 meta game and honestly in a lot of respects was just better than Rhydon. Now it can't even hold it's own in UU because it can't deal with the water types. Insane.
Outside of explosion what did golem have that rhydon couldn't do better?
@@gojirarex5138 absolutely nothing
Ok this one was actually cool af
Why didn't Snorlax and Chansey use Reflect before this change?
because then they would waste a move slot trying to be a physical wall when the most common physical move has a chance to shut them down
It would be cool if Body Slam's chance for paralysis was based on weight. A Chansey Body Slam would have little chance. A Snorlax Body Slam would be almost guaranteed.
wait....normal types were immune to body slam paralysis???? i legit thought that was the only thing that could harm everyone (baring Gastly line because body slam couldn't hit them). huh. I'm glad stuff like this can be discovered 25 years later.
stun spore and glare really do hit everything
Is there a reason why people say that SD/Explosion HALVED the enemy’s defense instead of IGNORED or PIERCED half of it? Did the enemy somehow become twice as vulnerable to physical hits if they survived the blowing up?
Edit: I’m a dumb dumb and forgot to add in the “half” part after ignore/pierce
Halved it when dealing damage
SD/Explosion only halves the defense stat during damage calculation, defense boosts that were already there still apply bar crits, didn't you hear what he said about how exploding to a pokemon with a reflect up being moslty inefective?
(All though now im not sure if he mentioned that at all, either way how did you reach that conclusion?)
@@loudwhispre9406 The original comment's phrasing suggested that they thought Explosion literally didn't account for the Defense stat at all.
@@loudwhispre9406 look at the context of the reply
@@DisastrousIntentionally So why not say “ignores half the enemy’s defense?” Saying “halves the enemy’s defense” sounds like you’re dropping it by two stages or smth
I think this discovery occurred so late because, pokemon effectiveness and status was a thing after gen 6 when Electric Types can't be paralyzed and Grass Types nullifies powder moves.
Who could think Gen 1 had this type of stuff lol
actually i'm pretty sure cloyster being frz immune was common knowledge
Wait if you’re just playing RBY on cartridge body slam can’t paralyze normal types wow that’s crazy
I wonder if this works the same way in Pokemon Stadium? Iirc you can enable freeze clause in Pokemon Stadium, and if body slam paralyzes normal types in that game, then that mean this simulator version actually does not simulate any version of the game, and the previous one was more accurate.
Every iteration of Pokemon Gen 1 stadium basically has a bunch of bug fixes while introducing their own.
Example: Hyper Beam recharges regardless.
It's an intended mechanic, because Stadium does conserve that.
I mean tbf it is still usable in OU.Like i would take golem over machamp any day in OU its just that rhydon does what it does ever so slightly better.I still think its worth a shot if you want a more fast paced hyper offensive team but if your new to gen 1 or you want to win more consistently then Rhydon is just the better mon overall.
Yeah but isn't that exactly the point? If another pokemon does the same but better, there's no reason to pick it from an optimal point of view.
Therefore, less usage.
Therefore, demoted from the tier.
Tons of pokemon have usage in higher tiers, including ubers even tho they're at the bottom ones in the history of competitive pokemon. (to name a few : quagsire, ditto, smeargle, ...)
But there's a reason why they're not fixed in the higher tiers.
Same goes for Golem.
@@MrBidonboy yeah ok I understand now
I find metagames with so few viable Pokémon very interesting because each tier is so wildly different. Golem was better in OU than it was in UU because of how different the meta was in UU, because there just isn't a lower tier equivalent of e.g. Zapdos.
You just wouldn't see this happening in a format like gen 8, where there are hundreds of viable pokémon because each tier is still fundamentally similar. For example, let's say Garchomp, Urshifu and Melmetal was banned from OU. Suddenly, there isn't much need to run Slowbro anymore, so it drops to UU. Slowbro won't be worse in OU than UU because, on a fundamental level, UU is similar to OU, and Slowbro would still have it's purpose of beating mons like Zygarde, Lycanroc and Conk.
Could you talk about Gen 1 Porygon?
That's what the potentially upcoming video is for, because thanks to what has been discussed in this video, porygon now has something worth bringing up.
May (the person who wrote the smogon article they used as a source) already made a video on it here: ua-cam.com/video/XMgIZOMyFeM/v-deo.html
@@BlueAizu_ It can kind of wall Snorlax but that's about all it's good for.
I know this vid is old but I think it might be prudent to point out something. In gen 1 no pokemon will be affected by a status condition if they are the same type as the move. If an ice type move could burn it would not burn ice type pokemon and if a ground move could posion it wouldn't affect ground types. It just so happens that the only moves I can think of that would ever do this is body slam and tri-beam. Both of these will not affect normals but can freeze/burn/paralize ice/fire/electric types respectively as the move itself is normal type
tri attack was a strength clone in gen 1
It’s so wild to me, how long this actually went undiscovered. I noticed it within days, when fighting Lorelei. During long stall battles between snorlax and her Lapras with bodyslam, I was like „damn, that’s odd“.